# None affect snacking food



## megga (Jan 22, 2013)

After reading a post regarding morning highs because night snacks, with protiens, fats and carbs. What can we snack on??
I have a raw carrot sometimes and found this works, but something else wound be nice.
Any ideas


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## trophywench (Jan 22, 2013)

Well in theory if you don't want to bolus, anything non-carb.  But protein can raise your BG and to a lesser degree so can fats.

Why precisely do you need to snack, or do you mean you just want to?

The snack before bed to avoid Dawn Phenomenon is really a device for T2s AFAIK - I don't think it actually works for us.

Very hard on MDI to get the long-acting insulin profile to match it. (ie perhaps you'd need to have your Lantus at 02.00 to get it to peak at 6 or 7 am to match the DP)  Which isn't really 'on' is it?

But anyway on a pump, you just change your hourly rate pre whatever time the DP kicks in, to cover it.

And you discover that by basal testing ......


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## megga (Jan 22, 2013)

The Dawn Phenomenon is why i was put on the pump. Before this site, i used to snack before bed but a none carb and found that my b/g was still high in the morning, 15 was quite low for me but it would be up to 20 somtimes. Cutting out the protien's and fats and i am well happy, the norm now is around 5. Now i can test through out the night to see when it rises, but different amount, different foods, will all be different, and tbh its not worth the effort.
But once in a while  something to snack on other than carrots would be nice.


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## everydayupsanddowns (Jan 22, 2013)

I've relied on nuts for ages. They do contain carbs, but the amount in a handful is pretty much negligible.

Dry roasted peanuts are a particular weakness.


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## Pumper_Sue (Jan 22, 2013)

Pork scratchings don't affect my blood sugars


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## LeeLee (Jan 22, 2013)

Pumper_Sue said:


> Pork scratchings don't affect my blood sugars



I'd happily munch bags and bags of these, but would gain weight and thus lose control of my BG again.  Ho hum...


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## DeusXM (Jan 23, 2013)

Why would you gain weight on pork scratchings?


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## LeeLee (Jan 23, 2013)

DeusXM said:


> Why would you gain weight on pork scratchings?


They are basically fried pig skin and fat.  Eating all those calories would undo the good that I'm doing with the rest of my diet.  My D is definitely linked to weight control, so scratchings/crackling are off the menu for me except for the odd lapse when having a Sunday joint.


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## Phil65 (Jan 23, 2013)

DeusXM said:


> Why would you gain weight on pork scratchings?



....I take it that was sarcasm?


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## DeusXM (Jan 23, 2013)

No, not sarcasm at all. You put on weight when you eat food that contains both carbs and fat. You only store fat when your blood sugar increases and insulin converts that glucose to adipose tissue. If you eat an item that doesn't have any carbs, a T2 won't produce insulin and a T1 won't need to take any insulin for it. There isn't a blood sugar rise, so there's nothing to actually store as fat, and because the circulating insulin level will be low, there's nothing to block the metabolism of fat. 

Where this then gets really interesting is that fat and protein provide more satiety than carbohydrate. Appetite is largely influenced by circulating insulin levels - the spike from carbs and its reduction is largely the reason why people eating a high carb meal tend to feel hungry a few hours later. Fat and protein should make people feel fuller, quicker, which also means you probably end up eating fewer calories overall. That might sound counter-intuitive. But think about it. Say you've gone a restaurant and eaten a great big steak, and feel full afterwards. The fat and protein mean you feel stuffed at the end. But I bet most people will suddenly find room for dessert if it's on offer...but most people probably wouldn't go for another steak even if it had the same amount of calories.

Seriously - a packet of crisps will be far more fattening than a pack of pork scratchings. And in an extra hit for Dawn phenomenon, the circulating energy from fat and protein (which is slower to release than carbs) could potentially signal to your liver that you have plenty of energy available - thus preventing the liver from thinking you need an extra glucose hit in the morning.


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## Vicsetter (Jan 23, 2013)

DeusXM said:


> No, not sarcasm at all. You put on weight when you eat food that contains both carbs and fat. You only store fat when your blood sugar increases and insulin converts that glucose to adipose tissue. If you eat an item that doesn't have any carbs, a T2 won't produce insulin and a T1 won't need to take any insulin for it. There isn't a blood sugar rise, so there's nothing to actually store as fat, and because the circulating insulin level will be low, there's nothing to block the metabolism of fat.
> 
> Where this then gets really interesting is that fat and protein provide more satiety than carbohydrate. Appetite is largely influenced by circulating insulin levels - the spike from carbs and its reduction is largely the reason why people eating a high carb meal tend to feel hungry a few hours later. Fat and protein should make people feel fuller, quicker, which also means you probably end up eating fewer calories overall. That might sound counter-intuitive. But think about it. Say you've gone a restaurant and eaten a great big steak, and feel full afterwards. The fat and protein mean you feel stuffed at the end. But I bet most people will suddenly find room for dessert if it's on offer...but most people probably wouldn't go for another steak even if it had the same amount of calories.
> 
> Seriously - a packet of crisps will be far more fattening than a pack of pork scratchings. And in an extra hit for Dawn phenomenon, the circulating energy from fat and protein (which is slower to release than carbs) could potentially signal to your liver that you have plenty of energy available - thus preventing the liver from thinking you need an extra glucose hit in the morning.



And there is me thinking you put on weight because your food intake (in calories) exceeds your bodies energy needs!  So because they don't contain carbs I can eat as many packets of pork scratchings/nuts as I like without putting on weight


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## DeusXM (Jan 23, 2013)

Your body isn't a strict thermodynamic machine. There isn't a magic switch in it that goes 'ping' the moment you go over the calories you need in a day where it starts storing excess energy as fat. Your body simply uses the energy that's available at the time and anything more than you need at that specific moment is stored as fat for metabolism later. So when you eat something that raises your blood sugar, that makes your blood energy dense because of the glucose. Whatever your body doesn't use is converted to fat. So while it makes sense for people who are very physically active to consume large quantities of carbs (because the spike will be used up by their metabolism), for those of us with office jobs, eating a sandwich gives you a double hit. Firstly, the spike won't be used up by your activity so the excess glucose from the bread will end up being stored as fat. And then any fat in the sandwich also gets stored (your body metabolises carbs in preference to fat) AND the insulin required to process that sandwich means your body refuses to metabolise any fat.

Take a look at the foods that are considered fattening - chips, burgers, crisps, pizza. ALL of these foods have one thing in common - they are both high in carbs AND high in fat. They cause huge blood sugar spikes and block fat metabolism.

As for eating as many pork scratchings as you like...that was my point about satiety. Most people could eat a pack of crisps and easily eat another pack. Few people can eat two packs of pork scratchings on the trot (boom boom!)...frankly I find it hard to finish one. The higher the proportion of fat in your diet, the less you'll actually eat.


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## Vicsetter (Jan 23, 2013)

Just as a matter of interest, lots of scientific type discussion going on here, but I would like to point out that crisps and pork scratchings come in different size bags.  The small bags sold from a card in pubs/shops are 20g the bags sold in supermarkets tend to be 35g or 100g.
I could easily polish off a large packet as a snack and that is over 600kcal.

Walkers crisps can be 32.5g or 50g bags. so assuming you eat 2 50g bags thats 520kCal but about 50g carbs, so big spike from the carbs and probably a quicker tail off as the pork scratchings are 50% fat.
As an additional note of caution, Pork Scratchings are very high in salt (2.9%) as are crisps and a lot of pizza as well.


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## Dory (Jan 23, 2013)

Deus - you say that eating fat/protein in itself does not cause blood glucose rises. 

This is interesting - as you may see from my posts in other areas of the forum I am having that exact problem ie eating protein only (eg a few chicken drumsticks - meat only, skin removed) too close to bed leaves me with normal blood sugar levels at bed but high ones at breakfast.  I have just done 3 night fast tests in a row, testing hourly, and can quite happily confirm that eating protein does cause a sugar rise in me (baseline tests with no food shows even with DP there is not such a rise).  This is backed up by the following link that EveryDayUpsAndDowns sent me earlier:

http://www.diabetes-support.org.uk/info/?page_id=438


which also clearly shows that proteins and fats are converted to glucose (albeit at a lower % than CHO).  So, actually, your argument that eating only fat does not cause a glucose rise is not 100% correct; it may well cause your sugar levels to rise depending on the fat eaten and your own body.  And, following that, it is logical to assume that, eating enough of the fats (ie 20 packets of pork scratchings a day) may well cause enough of a rise in glucose level in your body to cause you to put weight on.


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## DeusXM (Jan 23, 2013)

> So, actually, your argument that eating only fat does not cause a glucose rise is not 100% correct; it may well cause your sugar levels to rise depending on the fat eaten and your own body.



That is an extremely good point and you are completely correct that protein, and to a lesser extent, fat, affect blood sugar levels. The point is that the spike is less pronounced and over a longer duration of time, which is what leads to the fat storage. Say the carbs spike you to 5mmol/l over what you actually need in your body - you've got all this excess energy in the tank that then has to be stored straight away. Then say protein spikes you by 2 mmol/l over what you need (because of the slower breakdown). Clearly there is less 'stuff' that needs to be removed from the blood to be stored as adipose tissue. Simply put, the net result is that your body  will effectively 'prefer' to store your dietary carbs as fat, in relation to protein or fat.

With regards to your own handling of protein - obviously I can't possibly comment on what is your body but given that scratching are obviously high in fat, this may potentially slow down gluconeogenesis and remove the spiking in this instance.

Finally, I'm certainly not advocating eating 20 bags of Mr Porky a day! But I will say this - I now tend to eat pork scratchings in place of crisps. I do not exercise a great deal (I know, I'm not happy about that either). I've been doing this for about a year now. My cholesterol level is actually pretty damn good (and not just 'good for a diabetic') and more intriguingly, despite these snacks being supposedly fattening, I've lost two inches off my waist (although oddly, I think I still weight the same). So yeah, I know everyone's different, and also I'm doing a lot more with my diet than just swapping crisps for rinds. But conventional wisdom says I shouldn't be having the results I have. The actual science, however, seems to suggest it's logical.

Obviously this isn't for everyone - but I think you may potentially find it helpful to know that a high fat intake does not inevitably lead to weight gain, and there is an increasing school of though that suggests it might also not be the cardio train wreck we'd expect (did you know the government of Sweden supports high-fat diets as a CVD prevention measure?). It might not work for you. But if you're bored of carrots every night, it might be worth giving fats a go - and simply go back to an older routine if you see the scales going up. That was basically my approach when I decided to reduce my carb intake and eat more fat - the moment I start seeing worse A1Cs, higher numbers on the scales or worse cholesterol, that's when I stop. I'm still waiting for that moment.


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## everydayupsanddowns (Jan 23, 2013)

Read this on t'other DSF just now which seemed entirely relevant to this conversation. An article published in a foodie magazine as to whether a calorie is a calorie, or whether different distrubutions of fat/carbs can help (or hinder) weight loss even if calorific intake is identical

http://diabetes-support.org.uk/diabetesforum/index.php/topic,3013.0.html


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## Dory (Jan 23, 2013)

thanks for this EDUAD - this is what I've been thinking for a long time (which is why I'm on the 'original' plan for Slimming World: very low carb intake).  I've been convinced for a long time that the reason i've found it hard to lose weight over the years is due to my high carb intake (didn't help that for 20 years I was following the 1980's advice from the NHS that i should be eating lots of carbs each day).

was it you that originally mentioned cauli rice?  i had some for dinner this evening - AMAZING


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## everydayupsanddowns (Jan 23, 2013)

Great! I do keep mentioning cauli rice... But *still* haven't tried it myself. Shocking really! Still - I only ever hear positive things about it!


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## Dory (Jan 23, 2013)

good god man.  get thee down to Tescos* post haste!  It would be great as a cous cous substitute too - and Deus mentioned cauli mash too.

*other supermarkets are available


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## everydayupsanddowns (Jan 23, 2013)

Cauliflower cheese though... Now you've got me!


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## Dory (Jan 23, 2013)

mmmm, cauliflower cheese.... excuse me whilst I have a moment......

so wish I could have that on my diet but not sure i'd ever be able to factor in the amount of cheese I'd want sprinkled on top (let alone in the sauce......)


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## everydayupsanddowns (Jan 23, 2013)

Will you be wanting a few big chunks of crusty granary bread with that madam? Thought so...


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## Dory (Jan 23, 2013)

don't forget the chilled sauv blanc .....(daydreaming now)


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## Vicsetter (Jan 24, 2013)

Dory said:


> mmmm, cauliflower cheese.... excuse me whilst I have a moment......
> 
> so wish I could have that on my diet but not sure i'd ever be able to factor in the amount of cheese I'd want sprinkled on top (let alone in the sauce......)



One solution to the amount of cheese you require is to use parmesan as well as cheddar, reducing the amount of cheddar (and thus total fat) with the parmesan increasing the cheesy flavour. Course you could also use Grana Padano instead of parmesan (Grana Padano has 1% carbs whereas Parmesan is 4%). Anyway you need a lot less cheese this way.  If you can make these cheese sauce without flour let me know. (I haven't tried Mary Berry's cheat cheese sauce: http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/maryberryscheatschee_73830, according to my recipe program it's 42g carbs, which is more than a standard recipe (25g butter, 25g flour, 1pint milk, 80 gram cheddar)


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## bennyg70 (Jan 24, 2013)

...urghhh cheese..  *Shudders*


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## Northerner (Jan 24, 2013)

bennyg70 said:


> ...urghhh cheese..  *Shudders*



Mmmmm...cheese....  <Drooools!>


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## everydayupsanddowns (Jan 24, 2013)

bennyg70 said:


> ...urghhh cheese..  *Shudders*



You can go off a person you know...

[Makes that Wallace face from the end of 'A Close Shave']


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## Dory (Jan 25, 2013)

Vicsetter said:


> One solution to the amount of cheese you require is to use parmesan as well as cheddar, reducing the amount of cheddar (and thus total fat) with the parmesan increasing the cheesy flavour. Course you could also use Grana Padano instead of parmesan (Grana Padano has 1% carbs whereas Parmesan is 4%). Anyway you need a lot less cheese this way.  If you can make these cheese sauce without flour let me know. (I haven't tried Mary Berry's cheat cheese sauce: http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/maryberryscheatschee_73830, according to my recipe program it's 42g carbs, which is more than a standard recipe (25g butter, 25g flour, 1pint milk, 80 gram cheddar)



Vic - my cheese limit is nothing to do with diabetes: I'm on slimming world.......all cheeses are limited....


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## Dory (Jan 25, 2013)

was in Waitrose yesterday and walked past the recipe leaflets...one for Cauliflower cheese gratin and made me think of you EDUAD ha ha


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