# Carb counting



## Toffee1 (Apr 30, 2021)

Recently diagnosed type 2.  I am really finding it difficult to understand what my carb intake should be.  Can anyone recomend an app that might help me to plan suitable meals. Thanks


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## Inka (Apr 30, 2021)

The simple answer to that is the amount of carbs that works for you - ie keeps your blood sugar ok and your weight ok.

I think you said you ate quite a few savoury carbs? Perhaps start with having your normal meals but reducing the carb element and replacing it with veg or salad. Unless you’re on insulin and carb-counting to adjust your bolus insulin, you don’t have to count up exactly.


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## Toffee1 (Apr 30, 2021)

Thanks inka.  I used to eat savoury carbs and trying hard to eat as much salad and veg but to be honest, every time I think of veg I just want to throw up.


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## Inka (Apr 30, 2021)

You’re talking to the UK’s biggest veg fan here @Toffee1  What is it that you don’t like about veg? Would you prefer salads? There are so many interesting and tasty salads now - forget just lettuce, cucumbers and tomatoes.


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## pm133 (Apr 30, 2021)

Inka said:


> You’re talking to the UK’s biggest veg fan here @Toffee1  What is it that you don’t like about veg? Would you prefer salads? There are so many interesting and tasty salads now - forget just lettuce, cucumbers and tomatoes.


I must admit, I could never be a vegetarian.
Life without meat sounds unbearable.
How anyone can be a vegan is beyond my comprehension. 
It must be horrible. A carrot can never be as good as a delicious medium rare rump steak soaked in a pepper sauce surely?

I remember my wife and I going to a friends house 30 years ago and they served up cauliflower cheese. After they'd dished it out they started tucking in. They asked me if I was going to eat and at that time I had no social filter and said "It's OK, I'll wait for the meat." As soon as the words came out of my mouth it suddenly dawned on me that there was going to be no meat. I was horrified.

It seems funny looking back now but as an ardent meat eater, I can't begin to describe how furious I felt at the time. I was absolutely seething. Barely spoke a word during dinner.

We didn't meet them again. I think it was mutual.


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## Sally71 (Apr 30, 2021)

Oops...

I don’t think I could ever go veggie either though, I enjoy my meat too much.   Although if I occasionally put a meal together which just happens to have no meat in it I don’t mind, my hubby will go out of his way to put some bacon on the top or something though!


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## Inka (Apr 30, 2021)

Most people are vegan for ethical reasons @pm133 I’m not vegan but I do eat a lot of vegan and plant-based meals. They’re definitely not horrible else I wouldn’t eat them! I love my food too much. As for vegetarian food, well there are a wealth of options  

Even if people choose not to be vegetarian or vegan, we could all do with eating more veg for general health reasons not just to lower carbs.


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## pm133 (Apr 30, 2021)

Inka said:


> we could all do with eating more veg for general health reasons not just to lower carbs.



There's nothing inherently unethical about eating meat. Animal welfare is another issue I suppose. Treating animals like crap isn't an inevitability and I don't understand the mentality of any farmer doing this. 

Happy to eat veg personally, but it will always be a side serving rather than the main course.

As a population I think a bigger problem than not eating enough veg is eating too many cakes and pies. The fact that covid seems to have particularly devastated the lives of those who are obese (many of them quite young) will probably be a wake-up call for the government to sort out obesity once and for all. Our UK lifestyles have almost definitely contributed to our death tolls being so much higher than those in other EU countries.


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## Inka (Apr 30, 2021)

Yes, junk food and over-processed crap is a massive problem too, but I find the two are generally connected. Those who eat the most crap, eat the least veg.

I disagree strongly that eating meat isn’t an ethical issue. You might be happy to do so and that’s fine - we all make our own decisions. But the idea there’s nothing ethical to consider seems wrong. Is it ethical to eat other living beings? You might say Yes, but there’s still an ethical/moral side to meat-eating that we all surely go through in our heads?


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## helli (Apr 30, 2021)

I haven't eaten meat for about 30 years.
Initially, my motivation for giving it up was animal welfare. Since then, free range meat has become much more common but, after so long, I don't miss meat and feel no reason to change.
I love the variety of colour, flavours and texture you get from vegetables. In comparison, meat looks so ... brown.
My partner eats meat and I have no problem with it but we both love trying different flavours and use lots of herbs and spices. 

I love how varied the human race is ... and how varied the cuisines are around the world.


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## trophywench (Apr 30, 2021)

I will never EVER feel guilty about the pigs that died to keep me alive - and neither should ANYONE who uses insulin !!!!  It was a bloody good job for shedloads of us worldwide that someone bred them!!!! - including RG Lawrence and HG Wells.


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## Toffee1 (Apr 30, 2021)

Inka said:


> You’re talking to the UK’s biggest veg fan here @Toffee1  What is it that you don’t like about veg? Would you prefer salads? There are so many interesting and tasty salads now - forget just lettuce, cucumbers and tomatoes.


I think I have just got so used to my old diet which didn't really include many vegetables.  I have been eating salads but I do need to investigate ways to make them more exciting.


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## Inka (Apr 30, 2021)

The cheapest way is to look for recipes online and/or borrow books from your local library. Despite the conversation above there’s no need to be vegetarian or vegan to explore veg, but I would say that googling plant-based salads or borrowing plant-based or vegan cookbooks should give you some ideas. You can then just add meat of your choice.

Finding an actual meal planner app isn’t easy. The only ones I know are plant-based and cost money, but there are often free offers where you get 3/5/7 days free or whatever.

Maybe I should start a Tasty Veg/Salad thread in recipes but that wouldn’t be for a few days. I find that having new salad recipes is refreshing and makes me focus on that as the centrepiece of the meal. I then add whatever I want to it to suit. Just mixing up different things eg adding strawberries to a rocket salad, or toasting pumpkin seeds to sprinkle on top of a green salad is fun. You can also do things like roast cauliflower rather than boil it. Stir fries are also a good way to jazz up veg.

My favourite veg at the moment are fennel and orange salad with hazelnut, rocket salad with strawberries, chickpeas and basil and lemon, and kale and broccoli salad (raw) with mango and chilli dressing. There are also the old favourites like Salad Nicoise which can be quite posh if you focus on getting good quality ingredients and presenting it nicely.


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## Leadinglights (Apr 30, 2021)

Toffee1 said:


> I think I have just got so used to my old diet which didn't really include many vegetables.  I have been eating salads but I do need to investigate ways to make them more exciting.


You can use mixed leaves which are a bit more exciting than just lettuce and add peppers, celery, radishes, shredded red cabbage, carrots, avocodo, olives add seeds like pumpkin and sunflower, maybe some crumbled feta cheese. You could have coleslaw.


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## Toffee1 (Apr 30, 2021)

Inka said:


> The cheapest way is to look for recipes online and/or borrow books from your local library. Despite the conversation above there’s no need to be vegetarian or vegan to explore veg, but I would say that googling plant-based salads or borrowing plant-based or vegan cookbooks should give you some ideas. You can then just add meat of your choice.
> 
> Finding an actual meal planner app isn’t easy. The only ones I know are plant-based and cost money, but there are often free offers where you get 3/5/7 days free or whatever.
> 
> ...


Thanks Inka.  I have taken a note of the fennel and orange salad and will definitely try it.  Your idea of starting a tasty veg salad thread sounds great and I am sure it will help many newbies lime me.


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## Inka (Apr 30, 2021)

I will do next week  

For the fennel, I use one of those mandolin-type peelers to get off thin strips (raw). It has some fresh mint too. It’s very simple and would go nicely with fish or chicken if you eat those. It has a citrussy dressing.


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## Toffee1 (Apr 30, 2021)

I will buy a peeler at the weekend and most definitely be keeping an eye out for your thread.


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## pm133 (Apr 30, 2021)

Inka said:


> I disagree strongly that eating meat isn’t an ethical issue. You might be happy to do so and that’s fine - we all make our own decisions. But the idea there’s nothing ethical to consider seems wrong. Is it ethical to eat other living beings?



Is it ethical to eat other living beings? That's an odd question.
Humans are omnivorous. Biologically, we are designed to eat both meat and vegetables. It's why we have canine teeth for a start. Our bodies are as beautifully designed to digest meat as vegetables.
I draw the line at eating humans though.

If someone wants to avoid meat, that's fine but they do need to make sure they find the nutrients and specifically the amino acids they would normally get from meat from other sources. For vegans, that can be particularly difficult.

I would add that @trophywench makes a very valid point about insulin. Without it, all of us type 1s would be dead. There's no ethical question to be answered in that regard other than the treatment of the animals under our welfare. As long as the animals are treated well and humanely dispatched, I'm OK with it (I won't buy eggs from anything other than free range sources for example).


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## Eddy Edson (May 1, 2021)

pm133 said:


> If someone wants to avoid meat, that's fine but they do need to make sure they find the nutrients and specifically the amino acids they would normally get from meat from other sources. For vegans, that can be particularly difficult.


It's really not very difficult to get all yr essential amino acids if you're vegan. Soy stuff, seeds, nuts ...


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## Inka (May 1, 2021)

@pm133 Not really an odd question. Animals are sentient beings, and in many cases exhibit emotions that we can relate to eg distress at the loss of an offspring. They feel fear and pain too.

By “ethical”, I mean that we all make judgements about what’s ‘acceptable’ to us as individuals eg you said you’d never eat a human. Would you eat your dog or cat? Would you eat someone else’s dog or cat? Would you drink milk from a dog? Gross? Then why is cows’ milk ok? See, there are lots of questions, both ethical and to do with a matter of taste/revulsion.

Yes, porcine and bovine insulin saved/saves many lives, and thank god for them. That’s another ethical judgement, isn’t it? Personally I think it’s a different matter to take insulin in order not to die than to choose to eat a lamb when a person could easily be nourished by other foods. One is a compelling choice, the other just a food desire.

Compare our canine teeth with a wolf’s. Not much good at tearing meat apart, are they? Look at our digestive tracts. Look at our near relatives in the primate kingdom. The amount of meat they eat is tiny, if any at all. Their diet is largely plants.

People in the developed world eat too much meat IMO. They don’t have to become vegan or vegetarian, but most people could do with eating less meat - for health reasons, ethical reasons and environmental reasons.


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## Leadinglights (May 1, 2021)

My grandfather born in 1876 and father born in 1908 were lifelong vegetarian, not easy for people to understand what it meant in those days and they were regarded as being very odd. Their criteria was not to have anything where the animal had been killed so had dairy and eggs but of course ingredients did not have to be declared so I'm sure they ate things containing animal products, the things that come to mind was Worcester sauce which has anchovies in and cheese which would have had rennet from animals (not so now as most cheeses have a non animal rennet). They even avoided wearing things made of leather, a bit tricky before all this plastic came into our lives.
My daughter is vegetarian not for ethical reasons but she doesn't like the texture or flavour of meat so finds the 'meat substitutes' just as unpleasant as they try to mimic those things.


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## Ditto (May 1, 2021)

> I draw the line at eating humans though.



We're not supposed to eat humans, nature gives us dementia if we do. That'll teach us.  A very interesting thread. I luvs meat. I think we do eat too much though. 

Re carb counting. I have no idea as I can't count hardly. I think if I can stay away from the junk food then I'll  be okay.


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## pm133 (May 1, 2021)

Inka said:


> @pm133
> Would you eat your dog or cat? Would you eat someone else’s dog or cat? Would you drink milk from a dog? Gross? Then why is cows’ milk ok? See, there are lots of questions, both ethical and to do with a matter of taste/revulsion.


No I wouldn't eat a dog or cat. Maybe a horse though. With some animals, we bring them into our houses and form close bonds with them to the extent that we anthropomorphise them - treating them as one of the family.

I've never tried milking my dog. I'm not convinced she'd let me. For me, cows milk is delicious but goat's milk is awful. For others it's the other way round. All down to taste.

We're not going to agree on the issue of the ethics of this.
I will add this thought though. Firstly, there is a difference between eating animals and the welfare of animals. Secondly, if people stop eating meat, there would have to be a mass cull of animals on a scale never seen before (it would make the Foot and Mouth epidemic look like nothing). Almost all farm animals are bred purely for food and/or milk. They would serve no other purpose to us and would be slaughtered overnight in their billions. It's worth bearing this in mind.


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## Inka (May 1, 2021)

I didn’t say we should agree @pm133 only that it _was_ an ethical question. You said there was “nothing inherently unethical” about eating meat, with the implication that anyone who thought there was must be wrong, and that eating a lamb, chicken or cow was no different to eating a potato. But there _is_ an ethical question. We might all have different views, different limits, but ethics _are_ involved.

No-one is suggesting slaughtering all the farm animals on Earth nor that everyone should become vegan. But reducing the use/consumption of animals is something that would be of benefit long-term. There is lot to think about. Some of it you might discount or be ok with, but there are ethics involved, as well as other factors.

If you’d like a thought-provoking watch try Earthlings. You won’t agree with some of it - I didn’t either - but it does make you think, and that’s good. I couldn’t get through the whole film because it’s very upsetting, but that in and of itself made me think and made me re-examine my limits.


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## Pattidevans (May 1, 2021)

Here's an article I wrote a long time  ago about how you can enjoy vegetables.  It starts with some ideas for carb substitutes and goes on  to lots of suggestions about how to make the best of veggies.  Probably needs a bit of a re-write to update lots of new veg recipes.  No way will my hubby go without meat, but at least we have lots of interesting accompaniments to the meat.

For what it's worth, I blame the nation's obesity on the government and it's so called "Eatwell plate" with it's emphasis on basing meals around starchy carbs.  It first came out in the 70s, prior to that few people were obese.  However, it all started with one Ancel Keys but that's a whole story in itself.


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## SB2015 (May 1, 2021)

Pattidevans said:


> Here's an article I wrote a long time  ago about how you can enjoy vegetables.  It starts with some ideas for carb substitutes and goes on  to lots of suggestions about how to make the best of veggies.  Probably needs a bit of a re-write to update lots of new veg recipes.  No way will my hubby go without meat, but at least we have lots of interesting accompaniments to the meat.
> 
> For what it's worth, I blame the nation's obesity on the government and it's so called "Eatwell plate" with it's emphasis on basing meals around starchy carbs.  It first came out in the 70s, prior to that few people were obese.  However, it all started with one Ancel Keys but that's a whole story in itself.


Thanks for this Patti
an excellent resource.  It is my week to cook from Sunday, and usually use one cookbook for the week when planning.  I think I shall use your A to Z this week.


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## pm133 (May 1, 2021)

Inka said:


> I didn’t say we should agree @pm133 only that it _was_ an ethical question.


We are disagreeing about whether or not this is an established fact.
We've both expressed our opinions on it and I'm happy to leave it at that and move on.


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## pm133 (May 1, 2021)

Pattidevans said:


> Here's an article I wrote a long time  ago about how you can enjoy vegetables.  It starts with some ideas for carb substitutes and goes on  to lots of suggestions about how to make the best of veggies.  Probably needs a bit of a re-write to update lots of new veg recipes.  No way will my hubby go without meat, but at least we have lots of interesting accompaniments to the meat.
> 
> For what it's worth, I blame the nation's obesity on the government and it's so called "Eatwell plate" with it's emphasis on basing meals around starchy carbs.  It first came out in the 70s, prior to that few people were obese.  However, it all started with one Ancel Keys but that's a whole story in itself.



I can only speak for myself here but when I ended up overweight it was because I was using food to comfort and compensate for other problems in my life. Once I started to get a taste for cheeseburgers and chocolate and also got into a routine of abusing food on a regular basis, it was very hard to break that cycle. I ate to feel better and then I put on weight which made me feel rubbish and so I ate some more. Within a short space of time I was struggling to bend over to tie my own shoelaces. The big difference I've noticed over the last 40 years is the explosion in availability of fast food and the increase in available spending power. Someone else cooks it for you, you can be eating it within minutes and it tastes good (because it's full of sugar and fat etc).

It was only when I addressed the issues behind my food abuse in the first place that I started to change my habits.


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## rebrascora (May 1, 2021)

Pattidevans said:


> Here's an article I wrote a long time  ago about how you can enjoy vegetables.  It starts with some ideas for carb substitutes and goes on  to lots of suggestions about how to make the best of veggies.  Probably needs a bit of a re-write to update lots of new veg recipes.  No way will my hubby go without meat, but at least we have lots of interesting accompaniments to the meat.
> 
> For what it's worth, I blame the nation's obesity on the government and it's so called "Eatwell plate" with it's emphasis on basing meals around starchy carbs.  It first came out in the 70s, prior to that few people were obese.  However, it all started with one Ancel Keys but that's a whole story in itself.



I only just discovered that a-z article on veggies the other day when Jenny (@trophywench) referenced it and I thought it was absolutely brilliant and bookmarked it straight away. Respect to you for compiling it!


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## Leadinglights (May 1, 2021)

rebrascora said:


> I only just discovered that a-z article on veggies the other day when Jenny (@trophywench) referenced it and I thought it was absolutely brilliant and bookmarked it straight away. Respect to you for compiling it!


I have just looked at it as well, brilliant for veggie fan but some super suggestions for the yet to be converted.
I am growing two varieties of squash 'mashed potato' and 'baked potato' for the first time (seeds from Thompson and Morgan) so I will see what they are like. No potatoes planted for this year, first time in nearly 30 years of having an allotment.
Thanks @Pattidevans


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## rebrascora (May 1, 2021)

I too haven't planted potatoes for the first time this year. Feels like a betrayal of my heritage as my Dad was a champion potato grower (in my eyes at least) and we all relished a plateful of new Arran Pilots swimming in butter.... didn't care if we didn't have anything else with them as they were heavenly just on their own!


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## Jenny101 (May 1, 2021)

My diabetic doctor once told me, almost 50 years ago, that there is one good, well-balanced healthy diet: 1/3 carbs, 1/3 protein and 1/3 vitamins and minerals (fruit & veg).  I think he was right.  My neice tried veganism, became tired, lethargic and her eyes were darkened - her doctor told her to change her diet as it was unhealthy.  I guess if that's your thing then you should do a lot more research and perhaps take a lot of supplements?  On the vegetarian note - do vegetarians understand that if they drink cows milk, a cow needs to calf every year in order to produce milk - I won't mention what happens to the calves!  Is vegetarian milk as good as cows milk?  I'm menopausal so in order to look after my bones I need calcium - another reason to drink cows milk.  I'll stop ranting now - can you tell that my grandad was a farmer!


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## Inka (May 1, 2021)

Yes, they do @Jenny101 Thats why some vegetarians won’t drink milk. Obviously vegans don’t either. Some vegetarians will drink milk but won’t eat eggs (due to the destruction of 50% of the chicks in commercial egg production). There are different kinds of vegetarians. The non-dairy milks have calcium added and some vitamins too

I completely agree that being vegan needs thought, and a vegan diet isn’t necessarily healthy per se. Someone could just eat chips and white bread and be vegan. We all need a healthy diet whatever our diet preferences. Vegans are recommended to take Vitamin b12 and omega 3.

There are, as always, loads of different studies about bone health and various diets, but this one specifically looks at vegans as compared to meat eaters. It’s from Osteoporosis International:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090416102302.htm

“_A study comparing the bone health of 105 post-menopausal vegan Buddhist nuns and 105 non-vegetarian women, matched in every other physical respect, has produced a surprising result. Their bone density was identical.”_


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## Pattidevans (May 1, 2021)

Leadinglights said:


> I have just looked at it as well, brilliant for veggie fan but some super suggestions for the yet to be converted.
> I am growing two varieties of squash 'mashed potato' and 'baked potato' for the first time (seeds from Thompson and Morgan) so I will see what they are like. No potatoes planted for this year, first time in nearly 30 years of having an allotment.
> Thanks @Pattidevans


Ah thanks everyone.  I am going to re-write it in the very near future as some of the links are broken + I have more suggestions to add.


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## trophywench (May 1, 2021)

Pattidevans said:


> Ah thanks everyone.  I am going to re-write it in the very near future as some of the links are broken + I have more suggestions to add.


What - you've found a veg beginning with Q ?


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## Pattidevans (May 2, 2021)

trophywench said:


> What - you've found a veg beginning with Q ?


LOL! Jen.  No... but some of the links in the article are broken and I have found some new ways of cooking some veg.


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## pm133 (May 2, 2021)

trophywench said:


> What - you've found a veg beginning with Q ?



Quinoa.
Apparently the leaves can be eaten as a vegetable as well as using the seeds.


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## Leadinglights (May 2, 2021)

pm133 said:


> Quinoa.
> Apparently the leaves can be eaten as a vegetable as well as using the seeds.


I thought that but then wondered did it count as a vegetable. I didn't know you could eat the leaves but there again you can eat nettles.


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## pm133 (May 2, 2021)

Leadinglights said:


> I thought that but then wondered did it count as a vegetable. I didn't know you could eat the leaves but there again you can eat nettles.


In fairness, as much as I'd like to portray an image of all-knowing sage, I did Google it.   

I have to say that I'm, a simple boy. If I can't pronounce it, I'm not putting it in my mouth so I won't be trying either version of this food.


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## EllsBells (May 2, 2021)

Leadinglights said:


> I thought that but then wondered did it count as a vegetable. I didn't know you could eat the leaves but there again you can eat nettles.


Nettle soup is really lovely


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## pm133 (May 2, 2021)

EllsBells said:


> Nettle soup is really lovely



This is probably a really stupid question but how do you prevent the needles getting into the soup you are drinking.

Also, what does it taste like?


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## trophywench (May 2, 2021)

Nettles don't have needles - they are like short hairs on the reverse of the leaves and they simply wilt and become ineffective when you cook them.  Never tried it so no idea what it tastes like - just seen people cooking it on telly!


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## EllsBells (May 2, 2021)

pm133 said:


> This is probably a really stupid question but how do you prevent the needles getting into the soup you are drinking.
> 
> Also, what does it taste like?


Tbh I've never made it - I've picked nettles for soup but that's about it.  I dunno!! I also haven't eaten it since 2002 but think spinach and rocket combo about covers it.


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## Pattidevans (May 2, 2021)

Once went to a dinner party.  The starter was a green soup.  I honestly thought it was spinach.  Pleasant but nothing to rave about.  Eventually the hostess asked us what we thought it was, after various guesses she told us it was Nasturtium leaves.  We had some Nasturtiums in the garden and every year they were infested with black fly!  I nearly gagged and put my spoon down very quickly!


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## Leadinglights (May 2, 2021)

Pattidevans said:


> Once went to a dinner party.  The starter was a green soup.  I honestly thought it was spinach.  Pleasant but nothing to rave about.  Eventually the hostess asked us what we thought it was, after various guesses she told us it was Nasturtium leaves.  We had some Nasturtiums in the garden and every year they were infested with black fly!  I nearly gagged and put my spoon down very quickly!


Nasturtium leaves are nice and peppery and the flowers are nice and colourful so I add them to my salad leaves and pickled seeds are a substitute for capers.


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## grovesy (May 2, 2021)

Pattidevans said:


> Once went to a dinner party.  The starter was a green soup.  I honestly thought it was spinach.  Pleasant but nothing to rave about.  Eventually the hostess asked us what we thought it was, after various guesses she told us it was Nasturtium leaves.  We had some Nasturtiums in the garden and every year they were infested with black fly!  I nearly gagged and put my spoon down very quickly!


I too find Nasturtiums attract the black fly.


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## Edgar's Raven (May 2, 2021)

Pattidevans said:


> Here's an article I wrote a long time  ago about how you can enjoy vegetables.  It starts with some ideas for carb substitutes and goes on  to lots of suggestions about how to make the best of veggies.  Probably needs a bit of a re-write to update lots of new veg recipes.  No way will my hubby go without meat, but at least we have lots of interesting accompaniments to the meat.
> 
> For what it's worth, I blame the nation's obesity on the government and it's so called "Eatwell plate" with it's emphasis on basing meals around starchy carbs.  It first came out in the 70s, prior to that few people were obese.  However, it all started with one Ancel Keys but that's a whole story in itself.


Thank for posting the link, Pattidevans - some good inspiration there, especially if like me you have gone off the boil and seem to eat nothing but salads.  Nowt wrong with that but!     Ah yes, Ancel Keys and the whole low-fat 'epidemic'.....   I dread to think how many thousands have paid for his study and the Eatwell plate.


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## Drummer (May 2, 2021)

Nettles are nice when toasted over a fire or in a hot oven.


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## Inka (May 2, 2021)

pm133 said:


> This is probably a really stupid question but how do you prevent the needles getting into the soup you are drinking.
> 
> Also, what does it taste like?



It tasted nicer than spinach but is a similar taste, just milder. I also like cooked nettles as a vegetable. They reduce down just like spinach does.


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## Christy (May 2, 2021)

rebrascora said:


> I only just discovered that a-z article on veggies the other day when Jenny (@trophywench) referenced it and I thought it was absolutely brilliant and bookmarked it straight away. Respect to you for compiling it!


Looks great.  How do you bookmark @rebrascora ?


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## Christy (May 2, 2021)

Pattidevans said:


> Ah thanks everyone.  I am going to re-write it in the very near future as some of the links are broken + I have more suggestions to add.


That would be great as the link to the Jamie O caulifower cheese didn't work. Looking forward to trying out your suggestions. Thanks


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## Pattidevans (May 2, 2021)

Edgar's Raven said:


> Thank for posting the link, Pattidevans - some good inspiration there, especially if like me you have gone off the boil and seem to eat nothing but salads.  Nowt wrong with that but!     Ah yes, Ancel Keys and the whole low-fat 'epidemic'.....   I dread to think how many thousands have paid for his study and the Eatwell plate.


If you look further into the Ancel Keys study you can see the errors.  He deliberately discounted any country that contravened his theories.  He had an enormous ego and ruined the reputation of several very good nutritional scientists.  In the process he also ruined the health of nations.

Clearly I have to get on with the rewrite!


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## Pattidevans (May 2, 2021)

Christy said:


> That would be great as the link to the Jamie O caulifower cheese didn't work. Looking forward to trying out your suggestions. Thanks


Try this link Christy https://www.jamieoliver.com/recipes/cheese-recipes/cauliflower-cheese/


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