# Neanderthals ate loads of carbs



## Eddy Edson (May 12, 2021)

Just like most human groups, whenever:  https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/05/neanderthals-carb-loaded-helping-grow-their-big-brains


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## travellor (May 12, 2021)

It's always been an understandable way to live, gathering food is a lot easier and safer than trying to kill it.


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## Ljc (May 12, 2021)

Yes surviving wasn’t easy nor was the work, hunting and gathering.  Our lifestyles are very different to that of Neanderthal’s .


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## Docb (May 12, 2021)

Much better when farming kicked off in the Stone Age.  Then relatively few people were needed to produce enough sustenance to allow nearly everybody else to do useless things and so spend their time digging earthworks and shifting huge lumps of stone.


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## Drummer (May 13, 2021)

The development of larger brains and smaller guts happened long before Neanderthals - and they became extinct.


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## mikeyB (May 14, 2021)

If your origins are european you likely have between 1 and 3% Neanderthal DNA. They haven’t died out, they are still with us, helping  us in their little way.

What that tells us is that they were human, and not so different. If we could interbreed and produce fertile offspring, then they were not a different species, in the same way all dogs are able to interbreed. All wolves.

Folk from Asia and the Far East have a similar, slightly larger proportion of Denisovian genes in their DNA.

The only folk who have none of this prehistoric genes are Africans, which is (a) proof that that’s where we all came from and (b) either there is no God, or Adam and Eve were black skinned. And there are no apples that grow naturally in the Rift Valley.


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## Drummer (May 14, 2021)

mikeyB said:


> If your origins are european you likely have between 1 and 3% Neanderthal DNA. They haven’t died out, they are still with us, helping  us in their little way.
> 
> What that tells us is that they were human, and not so different. If we could interbreed and produce fertile offspring, then they were not a different species, in the same way all dogs are able to interbreed. All wolves.
> 
> ...


They died out as a separate and distinct race though.
Where does it say that the tree with the fruit which conferred the knowledge of good and evil was an apple tree?
It was probable that the people living in Africa were dark skinned, so for a few generations those who decided to see what was over the horizon would have been dark - but there is a control inside humans - certainly the Asians have it, which is like the dial on a toaster. If the mother was producing pigment due to being in the sun, the child she carries will turn up its control and grow up with dark skin. If the mother is not getting much sun, then there is no great concentration of pigment in the blood, and the child grows up paler. 
There were families living in Yorkshire where the grandparents were dark and wrinkled as prunes, but despite the first generation marrying within their community, their youngsters were no more than tanned. By now there must be some quite pale Asians.
I think it has been suspected that there was a ginger gene in the Neanderthals, but the Denisovian theory did not prove true when some checking was done - I believe that they were rather disappointed.


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## mikeyB (May 14, 2021)

You refer to Asians, but we are described as white Caucasian. If you made everyone in India white skinned, they would look just like us. They are dark Caucasian. So of course they get paler in Northern climes.

And where has the Denisovian theory not been proved true? The Chinese are almost all lactose intolerant - that’s why there is no milk or cream in traditional Chinese food. That is almost certainly a primitive gene because that is the normal state in all adult animals. It’s only suppressed in the western world since we started farming cows, though it does manage to express itself in some people, who at least can call themselves proper humans. It’s not a disease or allergy, lactose intolerance. It’s normal.


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## nonethewiser (May 14, 2021)

Is it really new news, to survive you ate what was edible & available, simple as, never thought any different, surprised anyone would.


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## Eddy Edson (May 14, 2021)

nonethewiser said:


> Is it really new news, to survive you ate what was edible & available, simple as, never thought any different, surprised anyone would.


There are various carbs-are-evil cults (some keto, paleo, carnivore flavours) which believe, without evidence, that ancestral human populations ate few if any carbs.


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## travellor (May 14, 2021)

Eddy Edson said:


> There are various carbs-are-evil cults (some keto, paleo, carnivore flavours) which believe, without evidence, that ancestral human populations ate few if any carbs.



I wonder what they would do in the "end of the world apocalypse" movie.
While I head to the hills for the farming commune, would they hole up at Windsor Safari Park?
"To the lion enclosure, our time is here!"


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## Docb (May 14, 2021)

I take a very simple view on these matters, enshrined in the squirrel hypothesis or paradox or parallel or something like that.  

There are two brands of squirrel, the grey and the red.  The grey variety has got into a position where it is better at surviving than the red and so if left to nature it will eventually dominate the squirrel world and the red variety will die out. The only way the red will survive is if some omnipotent higher being (a sub set of hominid called conservationists) decides they are going to prevent nature taking its course and spends inordinate amounts of resource trying, and probably, failing to do it.

So it was with humanoids and Neanderthals.  The humanoids were far better at surviving and so their characteristics dominated and the Neanderthals died out. In those days there was no omnipotent higher being, except maybe God, to try and interfere.  If there was a God about, then he must have thought that domination of humanoids was a good thing and this should be taken as clear proof that he must have a different agenda to the conservationist sub set of humanity.

I rest my case, M'lud.


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## nonethewiser (May 14, 2021)

Eddy Edson said:


> There are various carbs-are-evil cults (some keto, paleo, carnivore flavours) which believe, without evidence, that ancestral human populations ate few if any carbs.



Some crazy people in this world that's for sure.


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## Eddy Edson (May 14, 2021)

travellor said:


> I wonder what they would do in the "end of the world apocalypse" movie.
> While I head to the hills for the farming commune, would they hole up at Windsor Safari Park?
> "To the lion enclosure, our time is here!"


I think the carnivore guys believe that their meaty diet ensures they are perfectly adapted for any post-apocalypse scenario, tearing weak vegetarian zombie remnants limb from limb like eg Charelton Heston in The Omega Man except stronger & meatier.


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## travellor (May 14, 2021)

Eddy Edson said:


> I think the carnivore guys believe that their meaty diet ensures they are perfectly adapted for any post-apocalypse scenario, tearing weak vegetarian zombie remnants limb from limb like eg Charelton Heston in The Omega Man except stronger & meatier.


In reality, I suspect it is more like a Soylent Green scenario.


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## Drummer (May 14, 2021)

mikeyB said:


> You refer to Asians, but we are described as white Caucasian. If you made everyone in India white skinned, they would look just like us. They are dark Caucasian. So of course they get paler in Northern climes.
> 
> And where has the Denisovian theory not been proved true? The Chinese are almost all lactose intolerant - that’s why there is no milk or cream in traditional Chinese food. That is almost certainly a primitive gene because that is the normal state in all adult animals. It’s only suppressed in the western world since we started farming cows, though it does manage to express itself in some people, who at least can call themselves proper humans. It’s not a disease or allergy, lactose intolerance. It’s normal.


The Denisovian/Chinese claim - I have seen it three times now - once before the research, once after, and one a report on the finding - but my memory is not what it was and I can only remember that the report was on the radio - BBC Radio 4 it would have been as I don't listen to anything else and I just remembered I was going to listen to something on Radio 3 last Sunday. I thought getting to 40 was bad enough - 70 is a real bitch. Thank goodness for iplayer.


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## everydayupsanddowns (May 14, 2021)

mikeyB said:


> (b) either there is no God, or Adam and Eve were black skinned. And there are no apples that grow naturally in the Rift Valley.



Ah blame the northern european gothic and later the renaissance artists for that. The (translated) text only mentions fruit of the tree of knowledge. Not of the tree of apple 

I can certainly imagine some verdant part of central Africa from which the first small collection of homosapiens began to venture to be quite Eden-like.


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## Eddy Edson (May 14, 2021)

everydayupsanddowns said:


> Ah blame the northern european gothic and later the renaissance artists for that. The (translated) text only mentions fruit of the tree of knowledge. Not of the tree of apple
> 
> I can certainly imagine some verdant part of central Africa from which the first small collection of homosapiens began to venture to be quite Eden-like.


I doubt they would have left, had it been Eden.

We were all refugees once.


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## mikeyB (May 15, 2021)

Humans moved out of Africa in multiple directions because they were human. Able to exploit and manipulate whichever environment they came across.


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## Eddy Edson (May 15, 2021)

mikeyB said:


> Humans moved out of Africa in multiple directions because they were human. Able to exploit and manipulate whichever environment they came across.


I really don't think people move somewhere unknown unless they have to. Note "uknown" - not the same as "new".


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## pm133 (May 15, 2021)

mikeyB said:


> either there is no God, or Adam and Eve were black skinned. And there are no apples that grow naturally in the Rift Valley.


The snake wasn't really a snake of course. And the apple wasn't really an apple either. I guess you couldn't have a bible which described sex directly and in glorious detail of course. Nobody will ever persuade me that this wasn't what the real story was about.


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## pm133 (May 15, 2021)

Eddy Edson said:


> I doubt they would have left, had it been Eden.
> 
> We were all refugees once.


I don't know about that. When we get to 20-ish, most of us voluntarily leave the comfortable family home where everything is provided and paid for to live usually in shared accommodation which is borderline slummy. I was going to say "shithole" but this is a family forum. 
I suppose our ancestors were natural explorers too. Eden is great when you are retired but it can be boring when you are young and trying to find a mate or experience new things.


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## pm133 (May 15, 2021)

everydayupsanddowns said:


> Ah blame the northern european gothic and later the renaissance artists for that. The (translated) text only mentions fruit of the tree of knowledge. Not of the tree of apple


If that's true, then I'm going to be VERY disappointed. I always liked the idea of the snake and apple thing being a clumsy metaphor for sex.

And if it IS true, then I'm not sure I understand why they'd be thrown out of Eden for eating an apple from a tree of knowledge. Were they being punished for trying to learn things? Is that the lesson? Obey without questioning?


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## pm133 (May 15, 2021)

Eddy Edson said:


> I really don't think people move somewhere unknown unless they have to. Note "uknown" - not the same as "new".


Not only do people routinely do this, they actively seek it out.
Not sure why you are differentiating between "new" and "unknown". They both essentially mean the same thing as in "it's both new AND unknown to me personally". That drive to explore seems to have no conscious logic to it other than a strong drive in the individual.

Youtube is packed with people doing just this. The latest craze is buying an old van, doing  it up, selling your house and living in the van whilst touring the world. People do this with children and pets as well (not for me though to be honest).


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## Eddy Edson (May 15, 2021)

pm133 said:


> Not only do people routinely do this, they actively seek it out.
> Not sure why you are differentiating between "new" and "unknown". They both essentially mean the same thing as in "it's both new AND unknown to me personally". That drive to explore seems to have no conscious logic to it other than a strong drive in the individual.
> 
> Youtube is packed with people doing just this. The latest craze is buying an old van, doing  it up, selling your house and living in the van whilst touring the world. People do this with children and pets as well (not for me though to be honest).


I think there's a huge qualitative gulf between going on a van jaunt around the modern world and a context in which you have no knowledge of what things are like over the hill, including whether there'll be enough to eat next week & next season.

I think the conventional picture for the spread of modern humans out of Africa has megadroughts hitting Africa from about 100K years ago, pushing people to the coasts and finally over the water - which I think must have been a huge, desperate step (but obviously - who knows?).


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## pm133 (May 15, 2021)

Eddy Edson said:


> I think there's a huge qualitative gulf between going on a van jaunt around the modern world and a context in which you have no knowledge of what things are like over the hill, including whether there'll be enough to eat next week & next season.
> 
> I think the conventional picture for the spread of modern humans out of Africa has megadroughts hitting Africa from about 100K years ago, pushing people to the coasts and finally over the water - which I think must have been a huge, desperate step (but obviously - who knows?).



Selling your house, quitting your job, not knowing where your next income is coming from or how much it will be? Not knowing if you'll ever be able to afford another house? Worrying about what would happen if you got ill? Or your van broke down in the middle of nowhere? Or where you'd sleep if your van was in the garage being fixed? Or what you'd do if your van got written off or stolen or impounded if you parked for too long somewhere? Or where you'd send your kids regarding schooling? Or how to communicate in a language you don't understand when abroad if something went wrong? Or how to explain away the x year gap on your CV if you needed to work again? Or where you'd go for a shower during a pandemic lockdown? The list of risks is endless.

At least prehistoric man knew how to hunt, make fire etc. Modern man? Would any of us honestly know how to catch a wild animal and cook it properly? Or forage for food in the forest in an emergency?

Of course, it's all relative but I don't there's any significant difference at all to be honest.


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## Eddy Edson (May 15, 2021)

pm133 said:


> Selling your house, quitting your job, not knowing where your next income is coming from or how much it will be? Not knowing if you'll ever be able to afford another house? Worrying about what would happen if you got ill? Or your van broke down in the middle of nowhere? Or where you'd sleep if your van was in the garage being fixed? Or what you'd do if your van got written off or stolen or impounded if you parked for too long somewhere? Or where you'd send your kids regarding schooling? Or how to communicate in a language you don't understand when abroad if something went wrong? Or how to explain away the x year gap on your CV if you needed to work again? Or where you'd go for a shower during a pandemic lockdown? The list of risks is endless.
> 
> At least prehistoric man knew how to hunt, make fire etc. Modern man? Would any of us honestly know how to catch a wild animal and cook it properly? Or forage for food in the forest in an emergency?
> 
> Of course, it's all relative but I don't there's any significant difference at all to be honest.


I think all of those first-world risks you list are in a completely different league versus the prospect of starvation which surely drove a little band of humans across the Red Sea and out of Africa.

Anyway, that's what makes sense to me


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## Inka (May 15, 2021)

pm133 said:


> If that's true, then I'm going to be VERY disappointed. I always liked the idea of the snake and apple thing being a clumsy metaphor for sex.
> 
> And if it IS true, then I'm not sure I understand why they'd be thrown out of Eden for eating an apple from a tree of knowledge. Were they being punished for trying to learn things? Is that the lesson? Obey without questioning?



The ‘lesson’ IMO is a misogynistic one - Eve is to blame for the expulsion from Eden. See also Pandora’s Box for a similar theme. So I see both tales as more about the patriarchal nature of those societies.

The ‘fruit of the Tree’ is clearly a cocoa bean. This is why I diligently fill my face with chocolate in the pursuit of ever-more knowledge. Well, when I’m not busy causing the downfall of various civilisations with my womanly weaknesses, that is.


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## travellor (May 15, 2021)

Eddy Edson said:


> I think all of those first-world risks you list are in a completely different league versus the prospect of starvation which surely drove a little band of humans across the Red Sea and out of Africa.
> 
> Anyway, that's what makes sense to me


Somedays you read something, and just think "mmm"


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## Drummer (May 16, 2021)

I blame teenagers.
Always up to something and going off and getting into trouble when they come back home, so one day they think - right - I'll show them - I'll go off to that place me and my mates found last summer where there was water and stuff to eat and see if they want to come, and maybe some girls too and then they can shout all they want 'cos we won't be able to hear them - and we'll be able to have fun.
As for interbreeding with Neanderthals - well - they obviously discovered alcoholic drinks quite early on.


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