# State Schools vs Private Education



## Nomad722 (Sep 23, 2019)

You have probably heard that Labour wants to ban private education.  I say let parents have their own choice if they can afford it.  Labour should concentrate on increasing standards in state schools.


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## mikeyB (Sep 23, 2019)

The social effect of private education isn’t anything to do with education. When you have 80% of judges privately educated, around 50% of BBC presenters and executives, around 80% of the current government you can see the pernicious effect of private education. Opening doors that can’t be opened by comprehensive educated folk, and for sure it’s nothing to do with educational attainment. 

And the standards in many state schools are comparable to private schools, who take easier exams to get to higher education.

The whole system stinks of privilege and entitlement, and just adds to the problem of social mobility. 

That’s why Labour wants them abolished.


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## Bronco Billy (Sep 23, 2019)

mikeyB said:


> T
> 
> That’s why Labour wants them abolished.




Or it could be nothing more than class envy.


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## Andy HB (Sep 23, 2019)

I think it is too simple to just blame private schools. You know what they say about simple solutions to problems? They are usually wrong!

No, get all schools up to a good standard. That's the more complicated answer.


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## mikeyB (Sep 23, 2019)

Bronco Billy said:


> Or it could be nothing more than class envy.


Thanks for that sophisticated argument against the points I made. Perhaps you could address those.


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## Docb (Sep 24, 2019)

To my mind the private schools should be treated as businesses and be subject to business laws and taxes - make a few quid which could go back into general education.  If there is something that does owe itself to the old boy network it is that they are allowed to maintain charitable status.


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## Thebearcametoo (Sep 24, 2019)

Docb said:


> To my mind the private schools should be treated as businesses and be subject to business laws and taxes - make a few quid which could go back into general education.  If there is something that does owe itself to the old boy network it is that they are allowed to maintain charitable status.


Yes removing charitable status. Making teacher pensions in private schools private pensions and not part of the state teachers agreements. All those would go to make a more level playing field and show the true cost of private education rather than being given freebies that other business don’t get. State school funding should be looked at again but is separate to this.


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## belugalad (Sep 24, 2019)

I think sometimes politicians that have been educated in private schools and have then gone to the best universities along with living in wealthy neighbourhoods,have managed to live a life without even coming in to contact with the average Joe that they are supposed to represent


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## Nomad722 (Sep 24, 2019)

Some of the Labour MP's children went to private schools; e.g; Tony Blair and Diane Abbot's daughter.


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## Docb (Sep 24, 2019)

Thebearcametoo said:


> Yes removing charitable status. Making teacher pensions in private schools private pensions and not part of the state teachers agreements. All those would go to make a more level playing field and show the true cost of private education rather than being given freebies that other business don’t get. State school funding should be looked at again but is separate to this.



I believe that the charitable status makes them exempt from charging VAT on their income and no doubt has effects when it comes to business rates, two of the biggest killers when it comes to running a business.  Agree with you Benny G, but lets make sure that you are carrying all the cost and not having some of it off loaded onto the taxpayer.


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## Deleted member 13600 (Sep 24, 2019)

Nomad722 said:


> Some of the Labour MP's children went to private schools; e.g; Tony Blair and Diane Abbot's daughter.



 Jeremy Corbyn = Castle House School.
Shami Chakrabrti sent her son to private school, "because she can afford it".
Hilary Benn = Westminster Under School.
The list is endless.
Just because they enjoyed it doesn't mean you can, or should.


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## karloc (Sep 24, 2019)

If the private schools are shut down, not sure where the students would go.
Plus we would have to have state run boarding schools which would I am sure be a different tier of state school. Either favored or not


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## Robin (Sep 24, 2019)

karloc said:


> If the private schools are shut down, not sure where the students would go.
> Plus we would have to have state run boarding schools which would I am sure be a different tier of state school. Either favored or not


It’s not unknown now, one of our nearby comprehensives has a boarding house, as well as day pupils, but otherwise operates just like the other state schools in the area.


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## karloc (Sep 24, 2019)

Robin said:


> It’s not unknown now, one of our nearby comprehensives has a boarding house, as well as day pupils, but otherwise operates just like the other state schools in the area.


Interesting, live and learn. 
How posh! lol


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## Robin (Sep 24, 2019)

karloc said:


> Interesting, live and learn.
> How posh! lol


Not posh at all, it just caters for the children of people working abroad, or being sent to different places, such as servicemen and women, or overseas charity workers, etc.


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## karloc (Sep 24, 2019)

Robin said:


> Not posh at all, it just caters for the children of people working abroad, or being sent to different places, such as servicemen and women, or overseas charity workers, etc.


I know it was a joke. Many private schools are not posh either.


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## Bronco Billy (Sep 24, 2019)

mikeyB said:


> Thanks for that sophisticated argument against the points I made. Perhaps you could address those.




Certainly.

65% of judges are privately educated, not 80%. If you think that 50% of BBC presenters are privately educated, you clearly haven’t listened to or watched the BBC recently. 64% of the current cabinet are privately educated, not 80%.

On the whole, private schools achieve better results than state schools. Like anything in life, if you can afford to pay for a better version of a service or product, you do. This applies especially to doing your best for your child. Seeking to abolish private schools is nothing more than class envy. I wonder if anyone has told Diane Abbott Diane Abbott and Shami Chakrabarti yet? They sent their children to private schools, so if it’s ok for them….


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## mikeyB (Sep 24, 2019)

But the percentage of public school folk in those in those occupations doesn’t reflect academic achievement. They are simply too big. It shows an inbuilt entitlement to top jobs in the professions which is self preserving. It’s simply wrong. 

The era of jobs being given to the “right sort of chap” belongs in history. Wrong school, wrong colour, wrong accent precluding access. Cut the life out of those attitudes, close the public schools.


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## karloc (Sep 24, 2019)

where is the money going to come from to pay for this


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## mikeyB (Sep 25, 2019)

It costs nothing to ban public schools, you just tax rich people more to pay for improved state schools. They won’t miss the money with the saving on their privileged education.


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## karloc (Sep 25, 2019)

3.5 billion a year I believe to add those students to state system.


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## nonethewiser (Sep 25, 2019)

Nomad722 said:


> You have probably heard that Labour wants to ban private education.  I say let parents have their own choice if they can afford it.  Labour should concentrate on increasing standards in state schools.



Seriously, they have lost the plot completely, old dinosaur mentality. 

Circumstances being different, had we the means to send our children to private school then that is where they would be educated, not boarding as we couldn't be parted from them.  Freedom of choice, just same as going private for operation than wait months on NHS.


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## Deleted member 13600 (Sep 26, 2019)

Although this is now a Labour policy rather than a suggestion.
The only way this is possible is to have a full, no deal totally clean break from the EU that would abandon the EU human rights laws.
It would contravene EU human rights, that's from Andrew Neil, not some Brexiteer crank.
The Labour Solicitor General had no answer.
Just saying.


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## mikeyB (Sep 26, 2019)

No it wouldn’t contravene the Human Rights Act. It only gives you a legal right to an education. That was introduced to give women the same education as men, historically, and to prevent exclusion. Nobody has a right to a private education - you can’t  embody that in law, because then everyone could get a private education, which would be a legal nonsense.

I had to study the Human Rights Act in my work in War Pensions. I obviously know more about it than Andrew Neil.

Incidentally, the Human Rights Act was conceived and written by British lawmakers.


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## Deleted member 13600 (Sep 26, 2019)

mikeyB said:


> No it wouldn’t contravene the Human Rights Act. It only gives you a legal right to an education. That was introduced to give women the same education as men, historically, and to prevent exclusion. Nobody has a right to a private education - you can’t  embody that in law, because then everyone could get a private education, which would be a legal nonsense.
> 
> I had to study the Human Rights Act in my work in War Pensions. I obviously know more about it than Andrew Neil.
> 
> Incidentally, the Human Rights Act was conceived and written by British lawmakers.



You obviously know more about it than the shadow Solicitor General as well then because he conceded Andrew Neil was correct. And lets face it he knows what he's talking about, I would tend to believe some one with an accountable record on all things political.
Also how are they going to seize the assets as they propose?
They would have to go to court, and when the courts side with a Stalinist regime we are in very, very serious trouble.

Did you see the program?


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## everydayupsanddowns (Sep 26, 2019)

Guzzian said:


> Also how are they going to seize the assets as they propose?
> They would have to go to court, and when the courts side with a Stalinist regime we are in very, very serious trouble.
> 
> Did you see the program?



Stalinist regime?

I know that Jeremy Corbyn is a divisive figure (personally I've found him to be quite an ineffective leader of the opposition against a government in such disarray), but many in Scandinavian countries are bemused at the way in which he is caricatured by the right-leaning press in the UK.

_As a Scandinavian who has spent more than a decade living in Britain, nothing has made me feel more foreign than observing the current Labour leadership election. From his style to his policies Mr Corbyn would, in Norway, be an unremarkably mainstream, run-of-the-mill social-democrat. His policy-platform places him squarely in the Norwegian Labour Party from which the last leader is such a widely respected establishment figure that upon resignation he became the current Secretary-General of NATO. _

_Yet, here in the United Kingdom a politician who makes similar policy-proposals, indeed those that form the very bedrock of the Nordic-model, is brandished as an extremist of the hard-left and a danger to society. _​
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ca...rbyn-mainstream-scandinavian-social-democrat/


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## mikeyB (Sep 26, 2019)

Guzzian said:


> You obviously know more about it than the shadow Solicitor General as well then because he conceded Andrew Neil was correct. And lets face it he knows what he's talking about, I would tend to believe some one with an accountable record on all things political.
> Also how are they going to seize the assets as they propose?
> They would have to go to court, and when the courts side with a Stalinist regime we are in very, very serious trouble.
> 
> Did you see the program?


Try reading the human rights act, and tell me where the right to choose a private education exists.


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## Deleted member 13600 (Sep 26, 2019)

everydayupsanddowns said:


> Stalinist regime?
> 
> I know that Jeremy Corbyn is a divisive figure (personally I've found him to be quite an ineffective leader of the opposition against a government in such disarray), but many in Scandinavian countries are bemused at the way in which he is caricatured by the right-leaning press in the UK.
> 
> ...



It's Macdonald that's the real problem.
Seizing assets from any legitimate concern doesn't bother you?
Violent protest is OK?
Locking up Tories is OK?
That means political prisoners are fair game.


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## Deleted member 13600 (Sep 26, 2019)

mikeyB said:


> Try reading the human rights act, and tell me where the right to choose a private education exists.



I have no intention of reading the full EU human rights act. 
I suspect that it says something along the lines of "you can go to any school that meets what ever standards". And why couldn't the shadow Solicitor General answer with anything other than, "but.....but Andrew what we want..... ermmm."

Also consider the business opportunities in the The Channel Islands or The Isle of Man.
Manx Harrow or Alderney Eton sounds nice.
Send your kids there and carry on as normal.

All these things need to be challenged.
I had an ordinary education, never had any privilege.
I'm playing devils advocate here.


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## everydayupsanddowns (Sep 26, 2019)

Guzzian said:


> It's Macdonald that's the real problem.
> Seizing assets from any legitimate concern doesn't bother you?
> Violent protest is OK?
> Locking up Tories is OK?
> That means political prisoners are fair game.



I’m not sure whether you meant John McDonnell (shadow chancellor), or Andy McDonald (shadow sec of state for transport), but that’s actually quite helpful in this instance, because the forum has user guidelines prohibiting libel and defamation and deleting your post might have seemed pointed.


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## Deleted member 13600 (Sep 26, 2019)

everydayupsanddowns said:


> I’m not sure whether you meant John McDonnell (shadow chancellor), or Andy McDonald (shadow sec of state for transport), but that’s actually quite helpful in this instance, because the forum has user guidelines prohibiting libel and defamation and deleting your post might have seemed pointed.



Sorry my mistake, McDonnell.


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## mikeyB (Sep 26, 2019)

Guzzian said:


> I have no intention of reading the full EU human rights act.
> I suspect that it says something along the lines of "you can go to any school that meets what ever standards". And why couldn't the shadow Solicitor General answer with anything other than, "but.....but Andrew what we want..... ermmm."
> 
> Also consider the business opportunities in the The Channel Islands or The Isle of Man.
> ...


No it doesn’t. If you can’t be bothered to read it (it doesn’t take long), then you have no right to comment on it. You can’t make comments on a basis of ignorance.


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## Deleted member 13600 (Sep 27, 2019)

mikeyB said:


> No it doesn’t. If you can’t be bothered to read it (it doesn’t take long), then you have no right to comment on it. You can’t make comments on a basis of ignorance.



OK, tell me why the shadow Solicitor General couldn't answer.
When a legal adviser i.e. Solicitor General can not debate a point of law with a TV presenter I don't want them in government.

"You can’t make comments on a basis of ignorance." The shadow Solicitor General appeared to.


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## mikeyB (Sep 27, 2019)

So what. Doesn’t surprise me at all, not many people are au fait with the Human Rights Act.


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## Deleted member 13600 (Sep 27, 2019)

3. "The freedom to found educational establishments with due respect for democratic principles and the right of parents to ensure the education and teaching of their children in conformity with their religious, philosophical and pedagogical convictions shall be respected, in accordance with the national laws governing the exercise of such freedom and right."

I'm guessing "the freedom to found" is the sticking point.

Any way I will put a date in my diary for the end of the next Parliament and see how we stand then.


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## mikeyB (Sep 28, 2019)

It could be argued that limiting  the best education for people who are rich is a breach of The Human Rights Act. We’re all equal under the sun.


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## Deleted member 13600 (Sep 28, 2019)

mikeyB said:


> It could be argued that limiting  the best education for people who are rich is a breach of The Human Rights Act. We’re all equal under the sun.



"And the standards in many state schools are comparable to private schools, who take easier exams to get to higher education."
Your own words.
That doesn't sound like the best education.

Nobody said we weren't all equal.
But populist rhetoric is straight out President Chump's training manual, tell them what they want to hear and forget about it.
They are now back peddling and saying they will remove charitable status.
That's not banning them and quite a good idea.


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## MikeTurin (Sep 30, 2019)

The hardest challenge is making state schools at an high standard, and don't divert public money to the private sector. 
Another thing private primary schools in UK can choose the kids enrolled, and could refuse the ones with special needs?


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## Robin (Sep 30, 2019)

MikeTurin said:


> The hardest challenge is making state schools at an high standard, and don't divert public money to the private sector.
> Another thing private primary schools in UK can choose the kids enrolled, and could refuse the ones with special needs?


Some could, and undoubtedly do. Others, like one Quaker foundation near here, positively embrace children with special needs. Parents whose children have failed to thrive in mainstream schools send their children there (along with others who just value the ethos of the school). Some pay full fees, others get needs based bursaries. I'd be sorry to see that school subsumed into the state sector, or closed, and hope they don’t the 'throw the baby out with the bathwater'.


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## trophywench (Sep 30, 2019)

My niece and nephew were privately educated up as far as their GCE O levels.  School didn't have a 6th form - they catered properly for kids of all sorts of capability and physical disability alongside the able bodies ones but not big enough to provide specialist teaching in the huge variety of subjects at a higher level and made that perfectly clear all along, hence why they took normal exams not easier ones.  The Common Entrance exam could hardly be described as 'easy' there were certainly Geometry questions I couldn't have answered at that age.


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## silentsquirrel (Sep 30, 2019)

Welcome back, @trophywench, good to see you posting again, hope you had a good summer.
Private schools are mostly very far from the likes of Eton, as you and @Robin have pointed out, but "toffs from Eton" is the triggered response from many people.
If charitable status was removed, Eton, Harrow, Winchester etc would survive but many others would not manage to keep afloat, and parents who value the choice of a school that suits the needs of their child would not be able to make this choice.  Not all can afford this now, just as not everyone can afford to self-fund the libre!  Some choose to spend on alcohol, smoking, meals out and frequent visits to pubs, expensive holidays, new clothes, expensive cars - and some choose education.  Their choice!
Not sure where the easier exams myth comes from - before the smaller exam boards were merged, private schools usually took the one supposed to be the most difficult for O and A Levels!


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## mikeyB (Sep 30, 2019)

trophywench said:


> My niece and nephew were privately educated up as far as their GCE O levels.  School didn't have a 6th form - they catered properly for kids of all sorts of capability and physical disability alongside the able bodies ones but not big enough to provide specialist teaching in the huge variety of subjects at a higher level and made that perfectly clear all along, hence why they took normal exams not easier ones.  The Common Entrance exam could hardly be described as 'easy' there were certainly Geometry questions I couldn't have answered at that age.



Public school students are intensively coached on the Common entrance exam, including multiple past papers. I've had that from the horse's mouth. A mate of mine at St Andrews went to Harrow.


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## silentsquirrel (Sep 30, 2019)

mikeyB said:


> Public school students are intensively coached on the Common entrance exam, including multiple past papers. I've had that from the horse's mouth. A mate of mine at St Andrews went to Harrow.


Of course - but that is just to get into a particular public school.  The public exams taken once there are no easier than for state schools.
Intensive coaching, including multiple past papers, are a major part of most state schools pre-GCSE now.


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## trophywench (Sep 30, 2019)

Whereas there were published books to help us pass our 11+ followed by I think they were called Brodies Notes to help us with O Levels, which we were told at our school could be a jolly good investment even though they didn't 'cram' - just taught us properly according to that year's curriculum for whichever examination board we came under - Joint Matric for me.  ie enough to pass whatever exams we were being entered for and let's face it in normal life how many of us has ever needed the knowledge of how to solve a simultaneous equation or that the earthworm is a cosmopolitan?


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## silentsquirrel (Sep 30, 2019)

trophywench said:


> Whereas there were published books to help us pass our 11+ followed by I think they were called Brodies Notes to help us with O Levels, which we were told at our school could be a jolly good investment even though they didn't 'cram' - just taught us properly according to that year's curriculum for whichever examination board we came under - Joint Matric for me.  ie enough to pass whatever exams we were being entered for and let's face it in normal life how many of us has ever needed the knowledge of how to solve a simultaneous equation or that the earthworm is a cosmopolitan?


No league tables then!


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