# Ketogenic diet may lead to increase in type 2 diabetes



## Sally W (Aug 9, 2018)

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-08-ketogenic-diets-diabetes.html


----------



## everydayupsanddowns (Aug 9, 2018)

Sally W said:


> https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-08-ketogenic-diets-diabetes.html



Really interesting @Sally W, thanks for posting this. Obviously it's a study in mice, so it's difficult to draw conclusions (or all us T1s would have been cured years ago!).

I've always held that keto, while brilliant for some people, wasn't necessarily the 'complete fix' that some of the loudest voices proclaim, and in other cases (eg children and adolescents) probably isn't such a good idea, or at the very least needs extremely careful handling.

I'm much happier with the general forum principle of "use your BG meter to find out what works for you, and what you can sustain long-term".


----------



## Sally W (Aug 9, 2018)

everydayupsanddowns said:


> Really interesting @Sally W, thanks for posting this. Obviously it's a study in mice, so it's difficult to draw conclusions (or all us T1s would have been cured years ago!).
> 
> I've always held that keto, while brilliant for some people, wasn't necessarily the 'complete fix' that some of the loudest voices proclaim, and in other cases (eg children and adolescents) probably isn't such a good idea, or at the very least needs extremely careful handling.
> 
> I'm much happier with the general forum principle of "use your BG meter to find out what works for you, and what you can sustain long-term".


Me too Mike.  Long term sustainability based on BG readings all the way


----------



## mikeyB (Aug 9, 2018)

The problem, as ever, is cruelty to mice. A mouse in the wild would neither eat a ketogenic diet, or a high fat diet. Humans can choose to eat either, so why not carry out tests on humans, then there might be something relevant emerging?

I, for one, would like to suggest that any research carried out on mice should not be published on the forum. It’s worthless. They only use mice because folk won’t tolerate experiments on higher primates.


----------



## Sally W (Aug 10, 2018)

mikeyB said:


> The problem, as ever, is cruelty to mice. A mouse in the wild would neither eat a ketogenic diet, or a high fat diet. Humans can choose to eat either, so why not carry out tests on humans, then there might be something relevant emerging?
> 
> I, for one, would like to suggest that any research carried out on mice should not be published on the forum. It’s worthless. They only use mice because folk won’t tolerate experiments on higher primates.


Heard the article reported on radio so thought it topical. Do get it removed, I can’t as for some reason I’ve not capacity to remove my posts. @Admin...please remove.  Thanks


----------



## Diabetes UK (Aug 10, 2018)

Thanks all. Whilst we understand and appreciate that there are concerns about the use of animals in medical research, we are also aware of the important contribution this type of research has made to improve the lives of people with diabetes across the world, and there have been some significant breakthroughs in diabetes care as a result of some research in the past. 
Members are free to share articles, information or research that they feel may be of interest to the rest of the community and this does not go against our guidelines of posting.
Thanks for sharing the research Sally, and thanks for your input @mikeyB.


----------



## mikeyB (Aug 10, 2018)

Indeed, the research on dogs lead to injectable insulin for T1 diabetes, saving millions of lives. 

My objection to using mice is not entirely moral, mice are physiologically and anatomically so different from humans that any research using mice is of little value. Thalidomide was tested on rats. That tells you all you need to know, really.


----------



## trophywench (Aug 10, 2018)

I'm interested in what you say @Hannah DUK - I'm not personally aware of any research they've done on mice relevant to improving human diabetic treatment - please educate me!


----------



## Sally W (Aug 11, 2018)

Hannah DUK said:


> Thanks all. Whilst we understand and appreciate that there are concerns about the use of animals in medical research, we are also aware of the important contribution this type of research has made to improve the lives of people with diabetes across the world, and there have been some significant breakthroughs in diabetes care as a result of some research in the past.
> Members are free to share articles, information or research that they feel may be of interest to the rest of the community and this does not go against our guidelines of posting.
> Thanks for sharing the research Sally, and thanks for your input @mikeyB.


Thanks for clarifying Hannah. And Happy Birthday !


----------



## Drummer (Aug 11, 2018)

Having been experimented on by doctors who insisted that they knew better than I did how I should eat to be thin and healthy, my compliance resulted only in misery and some situations which were frankly dangerous.
I need a low carb diet and my metabolism will no longer work if I eat low calorie, it just shuts down after too many attempts at standard CICO type diets, down to well below 1000 calories a day several times.


----------



## Eddy Edson (Aug 11, 2018)

trophywench said:


> I'm interested in what you say @Hannah DUK - I'm not personally aware of any research they've done on mice relevant to improving human diabetic treatment - please educate me!



Now fish (at least fat, blind, Mexican fish) are getting their piece of the action: https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/health/...Clues-Medicines-Next-Big-Thing-490592151.html

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature26136


----------



## travellor (Aug 12, 2018)

mikeyB said:


> The problem, as ever, is cruelty to mice. A mouse in the wild would neither eat a ketogenic diet, or a high fat diet. Humans can choose to eat either, so why not carry out tests on humans, then there might be something relevant emerging?
> 
> I, for one, would like to suggest that any research carried out on mice should not be published on the forum. It’s worthless. They only use mice because folk won’t tolerate experiments on higher primates.



It seems to be very well reported by the low carb high fat diet community that the diet leads to a very poor response to any carbs that are eaten subsequently, although the effect is claims to be short term by them.


----------



## Drummer (Aug 12, 2018)

If by poor response you mean Oh no I've put of four pounds in a week - yes, carbs eaten subsequently are likely to do that. I have never continued to eat higher amounts of carbs for more than a few days as it means a week or more of lower rations in order to get my weight down again. My blood glucose levels don't go up much these days, but as ever my weight increases at a great rate - but it always has done, since I was in my 20s, and that is over 40 years now.


----------



## Dave W (Aug 12, 2018)

mikeyB said:


> Indeed, the research on dogs lead to injectable insulin for T1 diabetes, saving millions of lives.
> 
> My objection to using mice is not entirely moral, mice are physiologically and anatomically so different from humans that any research using mice is of little value. Thalidomide was tested on rats. That tells you all you need to know, really.


And in 1908 Ignatowski did an experiment feeding rabbits milk, eggs and meat and demonstrated this produced a higher risk of artherosclerosis. Problem with his experiment was that bunnies are veggies.


----------



## mikeyB (Aug 12, 2018)

Eddy Edson said:


> Now fish (at least fat, blind, Mexican fish) are getting their piece of the action: https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/health/...Clues-Medicines-Next-Big-Thing-490592151.html
> 
> https://www.nature.com/articles/nature26136



Looks like we’ll have to regress a few million years and return to the sea to fix our diabetes. The suggestion this has anything to do with human diabetes is the far side of daft.  Though in America a lot of research on insulin production has been carried out on fish pancreas. The advantage to that kind of research is that once you’ve got the pancreas out you can take the rest home for supper.


----------



## Eddy Edson (Aug 13, 2018)

mikeyB said:


> Looks like we’ll have to regress a few million years and return to the sea to fix our diabetes. The suggestion this has anything to do with human diabetes is the far side of daft.  Though in America a lot of research on insulin production has been carried out on fish pancreas. The advantage to that kind of research is that once you’ve got the pancreas out you can take the rest home for supper.



A piece in The Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/03/blind-cave-fish-diabetes/556124/ on this has some gems:

_“The [cave fish] study supports the idea that using therapies to enhance insulin sensitivity may prevent or delay the onset of type 2 diabetes,” says Juleen Zierath, from the Karolinska Institute. Still, she notes that most humans live in a very different world to that of the cave fish_

Terrific insight!

However, I did learn this: _Byetta, a drug that’s commonly used to manage type 2 diabetes, was developed after studying the saliva of the Gila monster lizard._


----------



## travellor (Aug 13, 2018)

Drummer said:


> If by poor response you mean Oh no I've put of four pounds in a week - yes, carbs eaten subsequently are likely to do that. I have never continued to eat higher amounts of carbs for more than a few days as it means a week or more of lower rations in order to get my weight down again. My blood glucose levels don't go up much these days, but as ever my weight increases at a great rate - but it always has done, since I was in my 20s, and that is over 40 years now.



No, a large spike in BG.
Its a well reported response after a period of lchf.

Obviously overeating anything causes  weight gain though.


----------



## Drummer (Aug 14, 2018)

travellor said:


> No, a large spike in BG.
> Its a well reported response after a period of lchf.
> 
> Obviously overeating anything causes  weight gain though.


For myself I can eat anything other than carbs and not gain weight. I have had the same argument dozens of times over my lifetime and had it explained to me over and over again that I am wrong, deluded or lying - but I can experiment over and over again and get the same result. 
Now that I have a meter to measure my blood glucose I do not see higher spikes if I eat more carbs - I got 5.6 mmol/l after dinners on Christmas Eve and Christmas day 2017 which were higher carb than usual after a whole year of low carbing.
I suppose that the only thing which is always true is that the one thing we have in common is that we are all different.


----------

