# what is a low carb diet?



## Ivor Shed (Apr 28, 2016)

I’ve been type 2 for 4 years and fairly stable on Metformin but want to lose some weight (= GP says I must lose weight).  I understand that a low carb diet can help me lose weight and be good for my diabetes.  I've read that an average person eats 300+ g of carbs per day and a 'low carb' diet is 130-150 carbs and very low is less than 30g.  Furthermore, to 'kick-start' your body into burning fat, you should eat virtually no carbs (eat the eggs, bacon, sausages but skip the tomato and mushrooms) for about 6 weeks (or is it 2 or is it 8).  


So I have been ticking along for a couple of weeks, with no potatoes, no cakes or biscuits, no sweets or ice cream, no apples, pears, no root veg and no fun.  I don’t take sugar and only drink Coke zero etc.  I’ve cut out rice and pasta and never did eat cereals.  At least shopping is quicker as we can miss out half the food aisles in the supermarket.


On a calorie diet you are allowed treats but so far I haven't topped up my daily carbs at the end of the day with something mouth-watering like a slice of dry bread.  Am I being good or stupid?  I do like the idea of not having to weigh my food – just avoid everything that has carbs.

Now my wife found details of Glycemic index and Glycemic Load and I may have to throw away my spreadsheet and start again.  

Is an apple good or bad? (14g carb but 10g sugar) are there ‘good carbs’ and ‘bad carbs’ or is every carb a bad carb.  Could I sometimes make my cheeseburger easier to eat by having the bun?

Or, should I try the Atkins diet, the Paleo diet, the Birmingham diet (I made that up).  Any advice?


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## Annette (Apr 28, 2016)

The Birmingham diet consists of curry.


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## Annette (Apr 28, 2016)

All carbs are carbs, but not all carbs are equal. Some carbs affect you in different ways with regards to blood sugar readings. but I guess that's not what you're asking right now (but do read around on here to learn about how testing helps to determine which carbs are more suited to your system.)
Your numbers are wrong, by the way. An average diet is 230-250 carbs, low carb is round about 50 ish (levels vary depending on where you read them) and very low is below 20 ish. (ditto)
You are being very good cutting out all carbs (give or take), but you may find it very hard to keep to this level of eating. That's where the odd 'treat' (defined just as something you dont have very often) comes in.
Forget the difference between 'sugar' and carbs. Sugar is carbs is sugar.
(Try putting your cheeseburger in between the top and bottom of a beef tomato, BTW)
There's are loads of T2s on here who are really into their low carbing, so I will leave to details to them...


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## Amigo (Apr 28, 2016)

Might be an idea for your GP to refer you to a dietician Ivor (though in honesty the one I saw recommended more carb than my figures allow). The concern is by zero'ing in on your carb intake, you may be missing essential nutients and I found that the lower the carb, the worse the constipation. Are you having plenty of lower carb veg for instance? 

There is a difference between low carb and low calorie which you've already discovered and it's finding a good combination of the two. However cutting down on the starch like bread, rice, pasta, cakes etc. certainly will help. Trouble is in cutting down too strictly, the boredom factor will de-rail you. You need to sit down with a dietician and work out a plan for you. Take diet sheets of what you presently eat. Good luck!


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## Ivor Shed (Apr 28, 2016)

I'll try the idea of a burger in a tomato 'bun' - I tried it between cheese (cheese/burger/cheese/burger/cheese) - a half pounder, but kept adding more burgers and more cheese until it wouldn't fit in my mouth.  Very low carbs looks really difficult if you also want your 5-a-day fruit & veg and a few vitamins.  Do I have to add multivitamin pills to my daily list?


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## Annette (Apr 28, 2016)

Another 'bun' alternative is Cos lettuce leaves (or similar). Also adds to your 5 a day .
You shouldnt need multivitamins, you should be able to get all your requirements from your diet, but as Amigo says, might be worth trying to see a dietitian (if only so you can write them off your list of people never to bother with again).
I would just say, you dont NEED to zero carb. Just low carbing should help. That way, you can fit in a few berries (very little carbs), a bit of low cab dessert (Skyr, for example, good for calcium), Lidl's Hi protein rolls (only 11 g carbs per roll - which is very low for their size). Look in the Food and Recipes section for more ideas!


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## Ivor Shed (Apr 28, 2016)

but it doesn't appeal without the poppadoms, naan bread,  rice and chutney and there isn't a single Indian dessert on the low carb menu.


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## Diabeticliberty (Apr 28, 2016)

you mention the Atkins Diet. I do have a number of friends who tried this and lost a good chunk of timber. The problem that most of them encountered was that with almost zero carbohydrate and an unusually high protein content in their diet they all had issues with ketone production. You might want to take a little extra care here.


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## Lynn Davies (Apr 28, 2016)

Ooooooo! She said Skyr!!!!! That's my new guilty pleasure!, *swoon* 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 mixed with a teaspoon of Splenda (I do have a sweet tooth) and a few chopped strawbs and a slack handful of blueberries and you have a really decadent tasting dessert.

Alternatively you can have some frozen raspberries or blackberrys in a small dish. Just cover them with full cream and a tsp of Splenda then with a spoon just chop into the fruit until it is all broken up and the cream is all mixed in and it resembles soft ice cream.

Alternatively you can mix a sugar free jelly with a small amount of boiling water to desolve the crystals then add a small pot of full fat cream and top up with cold water. Whisk this until combined. Share out into 4 small dessert dishes and refrigerate until set.

Alternatively- you can google for low carb desserts and there will be hundreds of returns.

Low carb needn't be boring or restrictive. Get some of the underground veggies and give yourself a bit of variety.

Who said 'no mushrooms!' Get them little beggars in the frying pan with a knob of butter and enjoy.


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## Martin Canty (Apr 28, 2016)

Low Carb is not that difficult, before I started on LCHF I couldn't fathom how to get to <20 carbs a day, now it's second nature (yes, I'm being very aggressive about my goals but many more carbs than this & my numbers start to go up)..... No Grains, Fruit or starchy foods.... Lots of leafy vegetables.... The key to a good Low Carb diet if to get the ratios of Carbs, Protein & Fats right, a typical balance is to derive your calorie intake based on a Carb/Protein/Fat ratio of 5%/25%/70%; this will likely put you into Nutritional Ketosis. When Keto Adapted your body will derive most of it's energy from Fats rather than Carbs hence the quite dramatic weight loss that Low Carbers can achieve (not to mention the good BG control, my FBG is typically in the 3.9-5.0 range). Lots of great information on http://www.ruled.me/

Another benefit for those trying to lose weight is that fat tends to fill us up, my midday meal is usually a cheese/lettuce rollup with lashings of Mayo (homemade)..... Perhaps 2oz cheese tops....

Personally, I view LCHF as a way of life, fortunately my (non-D) wife has just started this journey with me.


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## Lynn Davies (Apr 28, 2016)

Diabeticliberty said:


> you mention the Atkins Diet. I do have a number of friends who tried this and lost a good chunk of timber. The problem that most of them encountered was that with almost zero carbohydrate and an unusually high protein content in their diet they all had issues with ketone production. You might want to take a little extra care here.



First thing - Atkins is not zero carb. The first 2 weeks are 25 carbs then a slow increase to 35 - 40 carbs per day.

Secondly- the ketones produced are not the same as DKA. It's a natural product of fat burning.


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## Martin Canty (Apr 28, 2016)

Diabeticliberty said:


> you mention the Atkins Diet. I do have a number of friends who tried this and lost a good chunk of timber. The problem that most of them encountered was that with almost zero carbohydrate and an unusually high protein content in their diet they all had issues with ketone production. You might want to take a little extra care here.


Ketone production is not a problem, I am usually in Ketosis to between 0.5 & 2.0 (as measured with a dipstick) A well formulated Ketogenic Diet diet should give you a ketone range of between 0.5 & 5.0. My problem with the Aktlins & Paleo diets is that the Protein & carb ratio tends to be a little high for me.


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## Diabeticliberty (Apr 28, 2016)

Lynn Davies said:


> First thing - Atkins is not zero carb. The first 2 weeks are 25 carbs then a slow increase to 35 - 40 carbs per day.
> 
> Secondly- the ketones produced are not the same as DKA. It's a natural product of fat burning.



A number of the people I know developed extremely bad (temporary) breath. A couple of them were advised to drop the diet by their own GP's.


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## Cowboy Bob (Apr 28, 2016)

Lynn Davies said:


> Ooooooo! She said Skyr!!!!! That's my new guilty pleasure!, *swoon*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I happened upon a vanilla Skyr (can't remember the brand) that was sweetened with Aspartame rather than sugar so no need to mix your own. I'm sure there are other flavours too, but there was only one pot of the vanilla on the shelf so I guess it's rather popular


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## Lynn Davies (Apr 28, 2016)

Diabeticliberty said:


> A number of the people I know developed extremely bad (temporary) breath. A couple of them were advised to drop the diet by their own GP's.



Bad breath is normal in the beginning. Its just the ketones.

I am not going to start a defence of Dr Atkins but please remember he was a cardiac surgeon.


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## Diabeticliberty (Apr 28, 2016)

Lynn Davies said:


> Bad breath is normal in the beginning. Its just the ketones.
> 
> I am not going to start a defence of Dr Atkins but please remember he was a cardiac surgeon.




For my own part I do not wish to attack his scheme. It seems that a hell of a lot of people worldwide have done extremely well on it and lost lots and lots of weight. I am just cautious of it, perhaps over cautious as a type 1 diabetic. Ketones have always frightened the life out of me. On a sad occasion in the distant past I almost killed myself with ketoacidosis after a period of particularly poor management.


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## Lynn Davies (Apr 28, 2016)

I understand where you are coming from but please understand that dietary ketones are just not the same.


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## Martin Canty (Apr 28, 2016)

Diabeticliberty said:


> For my own part I do not wish to attack his scheme. It seems that a hell of a lot of people worldwide have done extremely well on it and lost lots and lots of weight. I am just cautious of it, perhaps over cautious as a type 1 diabetic. Ketones have always frightened the life out of me. On a sad occasion in the distant past I almost killed myself with ketoacidosis after a period of particularly poor management.


Alas, I can only speak from the point of view of a T2 who is in pretty good control..... Any T1 Low Carbers out there who can give their perspective?


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## Diabeticliberty (Apr 28, 2016)

Lynn and Martin have you both tried the Atkins diet? I must confess that I always thought it sounded a bit bonkers. It evidently works however.


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## Matt Cycle (Apr 28, 2016)

What about the Newcastle diet - pie, chips and brown ale.  Haway.


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## Martin Canty (Apr 28, 2016)

Diabeticliberty said:


> Lynn and Martin have you both tried the Atkins diet? I must confess that I always thought it sounded a bit bonkers. It evidently works however.


Not Atkins, per say, but on a very low carb, ketogenic diet for the last 4 months (similar to Atkins or Paleo) but more aggressive. My experience is very good, FBG typically between 3.9 & 5.0 weight down to 175lb from 225lb... more energy & generally feel better.

One huge thing is no more Hypo's as I have quit the Glyburide..... This gives me the confidence to engage in  outdoor activities without worrying about food or Hypoglycemia.

BTW, I thought that LCHF was crazy until I researched it & some of the history behind this Way Of Eating.


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## Lynn Davies (Apr 28, 2016)

Diabeticliberty said:


> Lynn and Martin have you both tried the Atkins diet? I must confess that I always thought it sounded a bit bonkers. It evidently works however.



Yes I have - did it for 6 years in the early 2000.

We could call it south beach, Duken, Stillman or a variety of other low carb plans that never aquired the stigma that the press perpetuated throughout the early 2000


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## Diabeticliberty (Apr 28, 2016)

WOW I am a bit interested in that. Could I trouble you to give me your sources of reference please? I would like to read up on it.


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## Diabeticliberty (Apr 28, 2016)

Lynn Davies said:


> Yes I have - did it for 6 years in the early 2000.
> 
> We could call it south beach, Duken, Stillman or a variety of other low carb plans that never aquired the stigma that the press perpetuated throughout the early 2000




Could you let me know your overall experience of it please?


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## Lynn Davies (Apr 28, 2016)

Mine is the Atkins website but if you google low carb diet there are pages of results.


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## Diabeticliberty (Apr 28, 2016)

Lynn Davies said:


> Mine is the Atkins website but if you google low carb diet there are pages of results.




Thank you very much. I am not going to go and stuff all of my bread and potatoes in the bin this evening. I will however take a long hard look at it


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## Lynn Davies (Apr 28, 2016)

Diabeticliberty said:


> Could you let me know your overall experience of it please?



Loved it. Lost 9 stone in 18 months but bought into the low fat hype and regained over half of it.  I found it very easy to do once I got my head around it all.

Being used to lowcarbing made the transition to controlling my BG much easier as I already knew it worked for some who are diabetic.

Even before my D diagnosis I still didn't eat potatoes, bread or chips on a regular basis.  Just never got the taste back for them.

Weight isn't dropping off me this time but for once in my life I can legitimately blame my thyroid!


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## Lynn Davies (Apr 28, 2016)

You could read William Banting letter on corpulence, published 1963!

http://www.citigraphics.net/citigrafx/stories/food/Banting Book.PDF

Also Gary Taubes article in the New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big-fat-lie.html?pagewanted=all


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## Cowboy Bob (Apr 28, 2016)

This is the vanilla Skyr I was talking about - http://www.waitrose.com/shop/DisplayProductFlyout?productId=486785 - 3.7g per 100g and weighing in at 170g so 6.3g per pot. Delicious stuff


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## Martin Canty (Apr 28, 2016)

Diabeticliberty said:


> WOW I am a bit interested in that. Could I trouble you to give me your sources of reference please? I would like to read up on it.


Hi DiabeticLiberty,

As a bit of background, there are a few videos that I like, some from Prof Tim Noakes (a fellow T2) 



 & Stephen Phinney 



, other proponents include Jeff Volek & Jason Fung to name but a few.... All of these have very informative videos on YouTube which are well worth the time to watch.

For a web resource, http://www.ruled.me/ has a lot of information.

I am a proponent of LCHF but advise anyone who is interested to do the research & make up their own mind; it's not for everyone!!!


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## Lynn Davies (Apr 28, 2016)

Does it taste like custard Bob?


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## robert@fm (Apr 28, 2016)

Lynn Davies said:


> You could read William Banting letter on corpulence, published 1963!


I think you mean 1*8*63, unless you are referring to a date of re-publication.


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## Lynn Davies (Apr 28, 2016)

Oh yeah!


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## Cowboy Bob (Apr 28, 2016)

Lynn Davies said:


> Does it taste like custard Bob?



Yes, yes it does


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## Lynn Davies (Apr 28, 2016)

Whoooohooooo Now just need to source a low carb nana *sigh*


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## Diabeticliberty (Apr 28, 2016)

I will take a long look,at these. It would take a very dramatic rethink of my entire insulin intake and management regime. 32 years management which I am very comfortable with could get a bit upside down for me. Having said this if I was of the opinion that I was not prepared to try anything new then I would have never even tried that kinky sex thing - ONLY JOKING. I might give something along the Atkins line a bit of a punt. A friend tried it some years ago and he was of something shall we say of a fuller figure. We joked at the time that he would be better going on the Ron Atkinson (football manager) diet. He lost a boatload of weight with it and at the time said he had never felt better. He did unfortunately put a chunk of weight back on. Hmmmmmm........interesting. food for thought from both of you. Thank you very much


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