# Ambulance Driving & Type 1 Diabetes



## ee92 (Apr 25, 2017)

Hi all, I'm new to the site and I'm hoping to get some responses regarding the above. 
I've recently applied to be an Ambulance Practitioner and got an e-mail saying I've been successful in the paper-sift.

I then contacted the HR team as I wanted to make sure I would be suitable for the post, as I know type 1 diabetes & driving emergency vehicles isn't a black and white subject. In no uncertain terms I was then told by HR that I wouldn't be allowed to continue with the process.

This is surely discrimination? I don't want to pull that old card but this can't be acceptable. I was under the impression cases were assessed on a case by case basis and not a blanket ban. 

Is there anyone out there who is/knows of personnel driving within the emergency services or anyone who knows the actual law around this? Feeling disheartened to say the least.

Thanks


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## Northerner (Apr 25, 2017)

Hi ee92, welcome to the forum  I don't personally know the answer to your question, but I would recommend contacting the Diabetes UK Helpline, as they will probably be able to direct you to the appropriate legislation and resources  They can be contacted at the following link:

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/helpline


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## grovesy (Apr 25, 2017)

Welcome.


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## Diabetes UK (Apr 25, 2017)

Hi @ee92 - Recently, The Secretary of State’s Honorary Medical Advisory Panel on Diabetes and Driving recommended that drivers with insulin treated diabetes do not drive emergency vehicles.
However, this is guidance, rather than a blanket ban. The decision is down to individual Ambulance Services and their policies - but essentially a decision should be made based on the individual, rather than a blanket decision based on a medical condition. You can contact the Diabetes UK Advocacy team who have experience in supporting with these enquires - 0345 123 2399 (Mon-Fri, 9am-5pm) or advocacy@diabetes.org.uk. they should be able to offer some guidance


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## ee92 (Apr 26, 2017)

Thanks Hannah, I'll give them a ring tomorrow and see where we go 

Still interested to see if there's anybody on the forums who is in the emergency services and their experiences with occy health. 

Thanks for all the replies so far


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## HOBIE (May 26, 2017)

Good luck with what you are doing ee. I would vote for you


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## stusdad (Apr 3, 2018)

ee92 said:


> Hi all, I'm new to the site and I'm hoping to get some responses regarding the above.
> I've recently applied to be an Ambulance Practitioner and got an e-mail saying I've been successful in the paper-sift.
> 
> I then contacted the HR team as I wanted to make sure I would be suitable for the post, as I know type 1 diabetes & driving emergency vehicles isn't a black and white subject. In no uncertain terms I was then told by HR that I wouldn't be allowed to continue with the process.
> ...


stusdad
Hi, my son applied as you did, he was accepted and began training. On his application form he disclosed his diabetes type 1. Throughout his training he told his trainers that he was Type1. He finished all the practical and theory and was due begin blue light training where he was told that he was not able to continue. he was suspended and told he was under investigation but not told why. As he was nearing the end of his training he and his family moved from Kent to London as his placement was to be there. He is still waiting for an answer more than 6-7 weeks later.


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## Diabetes UK (Apr 3, 2018)

Hi @stusdad , that is really frustrating. I hope your son receives the good news he is hoping for. Keep us updated.


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## Brando77 (Apr 3, 2018)

stusdad said:


> stusdad
> Hi, my son applied as you did, he was accepted and began training. On his application form he disclosed his diabetes type 1. Throughout his training he told his trainers that he was Type1. He finished all the practical and theory and was due begin blue light training where he was told that he was not able to continue. he was suspended and told he was under investigation but not told why. As he was nearing the end of his training he and his family moved from Kent to London as his placement was to be there. He is still waiting for an answer more than 6-7 weeks later.


Damn, all throughout his training he told them he was Diabetic and they still strung him along? Frustration overload, what a bunch of amateurs, they shouldn't be training people if they don't know the full picture.


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## Frazer (Apr 27, 2018)

stusdad what Amb service is he working for?  These articles are interesting from a discrimination perspective. 

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/about_us/news/discrimination-workplace and in particular this link https://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-diabetes/Life-with-diabetes/Employment

Hannah DUK I find it interesting that you quote the DVLA (they now say they do not have a restriction anymore - it is up to individual employers) yet the above articles are on your website and i quote from it "

Recruitment and retention of people with diabetes in the police, fire and ambulance services should now be subject to individual medical assessment. However the UK armed forces are exempt from the Equality Act and can operate a blanket ban on the recruitment of people with diabetes.
and


In some NHS Ambulance Trusts, there are still restrictions in place on people with diabetes who wish to be ambulance crew. These restrictions are being challenged. You may find that if you develop diabetes while in employment, your employer may offer to change aspects of your job, for instance by altering your shift patterns.
Stusdad - don't bother with the advocacy team they just quote DVLA and not employing IDDs.  The LAS are in the process of reviewing the policy so watch this space - feel free to message me.

Frazer


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## Diabetes UK (Apr 27, 2018)

Hi @Frazer - Yes you're  correct, the DVLA changed their guideance in regards to Blue Light driving in Jan 2018. Previously, they stated that it was down to employing authorities to decide, however they offered 'guidance' _against_ those with insulin treated diabetes driving emergency vehicles. They have now removed the guideance and so state that the decision is solely the responsibility of the employing authority (Ambulance Service)  and should be based on a risk assessment of the job and the individual.

This means that rather than an Ambulance Service or authority quoting the DVLA guideance, they must make their own policy.  When you take this in line with the Equality Act, it means that there cannot be a blanket ban and therefore it opens this up to require a case-by-case approach.
The Armed Forces are the only iunstitute exempt from the Equality Act in this way.


My previous post, outlining the DVLA' position was from Aug 2017, before the guideance changed so apologies for not correcting this sooner, however, the points you have pasted above are still accurate in regards to the new DVLA guideance.


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## Diabetes UK (Apr 27, 2018)

@stusdad - Hope you have had some progress with this situation. However, if not, perhaps it is worth your son seeking support from an employment discriminatory service such as EASS: http://www.equalityadvisoryservice.com/

As he was suspended with no explanation as to why, they will be best place to advise on his position and to support in what his rights are regarding knowing the reason for his suspension and where this may relate to his disclosure of his health condition.

If the suspension is in relation to his diabetes, then the Ambulance Service would need to have legitimate concerns regarding your son's diabetes (not concerns based on general assumptions of diabetes), which are in relation to the role he would carry out. If the risk to the individual or to others is not reasonable, and there are no adjustments that can be made then an employer could make a decision not to employ someone. However, health & safety cannot be used as a false reason not to employ an individual and if there are safety concerns, adjustments need to be explored before that decision is reached.

Feel free to check our Diabetes & Employment pack, there are a number of organizations listed in the back who offer specialist employment advice. Thanks and best of luck


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## Frazer (Apr 27, 2018)

Hi Hannah thanks for reply. I must apologise I have just noticed the date on your original post


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## C&E Guy (Jun 8, 2018)

I used to do voluntary work, and take teenagers to a summer camp. I drove minibuses, transits Luton vans, 7 ton trucks etc.

The EU then decided that I could no longer drive these vehicles. If it was professional, I could apply for a special license. It wasn't so I didn't.

I now can't drive an empty transit van - but I can drive a full 7-seater car. How stupid is that.

I'm guessing that you'd need to have the special license to professionally drive an ambulance.


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## travellor (Jul 30, 2018)

I suspect it may not be a driving issue, but a shift issue, such as a terrorism alert, which may place crew on an extended double shift, with no expectation of a break, so you need to prepare an acceptable contingency to how you will cope with this scenario, at any possible interview with HR. 
Also, if you do hit someone going through a red light, you need to think about evidence to show you were just as unlucky as any other paramedic, rather than it was diabetes related.
Not from the NHS point of view, but remember there with be a claim manager on the other side trying to prove you were personally negligent, and that the authority was negligent in employing you. 
It's not fair, but that's how the argument will go.


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## Frazer (Jul 30, 2018)

travellor said:


> I suspect it may not be a driving issue, but a shift issue, such as a terrorism alert, which may place crew on an extended double shift, with no expectation of a break, so you need to prepare an acceptable contingency to how you will cope with this scenario, at any possible interview with HR.
> Also, if you do hit someone going through a red light, you need to think about evidence to show you were just as unlucky as any other paramedic, rather than it was diabetes related.
> Not from the NHS point of view, but remember there with be a claim manager on the other side trying to prove you were personally negligent, and that the authority was negligent in employing you.
> It's not fair, but that's how the argument will go.



It is nothing to do with what you say it is plain discrimination. I work for an ambulance service that let's paramedics drive but not emergency ambulance crew. So medics won't drive through lights and crash but ambulance crew will? I would like to see your evidence for that. The Scottish fire brigade have the equivalent of 800 man hours of idd's driving incident free. They cannot say the same for non diabetics. It is simply discrimination I can work for the fire brigade, police and several amb services but not all. What is your theory on those? I have a medical level 2 licence which is a higher level than on diabetics. Insurance wise I would hand you my meter which would prove I was not low so you would lose there too. We used get insulin from pigs and we have moved on from that. It's time we moved on from this type of discrimiatory bulls**t.  Shifts I work them now. Terrorism I was working when London Bridge happened and grenfell. No one complained then #iamnotdisabled


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## travellor (Jul 31, 2018)

Frazer said:


> It is nothing to do with what you say it is plain discrimination. I work for an ambulance service that let's paramedics drive but not emergency ambulance crew. So medics won't drive through lights and crash but ambulance crew will? I would like to see your evidence for that. The Scottish fire brigade have the equivalent of 800 man hours of idd's driving incident free. They cannot say the same for non diabetics. It is simply discrimination I can work for the fire brigade, police and several amb services but not all. What is your theory on those? I have a medical level 2 licence which is a higher level than on diabetics. Insurance wise I would hand you my meter which would prove I was not low so you would lose there too. We used get insulin from pigs and we have moved on from that. It's time we moved on from this type of discrimiatory bulls**t.  Shifts I work them now. Terrorism I was working when London Bridge happened and grenfell. No one complained then #iamnotdisabled



No offense. If I hit you when you are on blues and twos, I will be hiring an ambulance chaser to sue the s**t out of you.
Dig in, because he will will be going all out, and anyone else will be doing the same to you.

You can put up discrimination as a defense, but you need to show that my loss isn't real if that's how you want to play it.
It may not be fair, but it's how it works.
And, if you are playing the discrimination card, if I lose a limb, I'll be playing trumps on that.
#youdisabledme

Not being rude, just setting out the cards.
This is the reality.
.


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## Frazer (Jul 31, 2018)

You would be able to sue me on the grounds of my driving and not my diabetes. During the 5 years that I have been idd I have never had a hypo the police will be able to download my meter to check my compliance. So will you be suing just because I am a diabetic.. I would buy popcorn to see how far you get with that. Under a foi request the las have had no rtc's involving idd's so could be a while before you test your unfounded theory


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## Frazer (Jul 31, 2018)

Ps when you start a post "no offence" it means you are about to.


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## travellor (Jul 31, 2018)

Frazer said:


> You would be able to sue me on the grounds of my driving and not my diabetes. During the 5 years that I have been idd I have never had a hypo the police will be able to download my meter to check my compliance. So will you be suing just because I am a diabetic.. I would buy popcorn to see how far you get with that. Under a foi request the las have had no rtc's involving idd's so could be a while before you test your unfounded theory



It's nothing to do with the police.
They can decide whether you may have committed any criminal offense, although it would be helpful to a civil case if you had.

Any accident, by anyone, for any reason can end up in a civil court.
And civil court is decided by the balance of probabilities.
And any solicitor worth his money is going to go for you in any way possible.
Diabetic is simply a tick in the box, working a double shift is another, having the ambulance booked into the workshop for a repair to it's brakes the day before, you name it, court won't be a slam dunk win for you just because you feel victimised at being recognised as a diabetic.
And you yourself recognise that, as you will hope to prove you are a very well controlled diabetic.

So would it still be discrimination if the employers guidelines included a regular review, to ensure your safety, and that of the public?


And you won't be allowed to bring popcorn.


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## Frazer (Jul 31, 2018)

I don't feel victimised I just feel its backward to think idd's be discriminated against when there is not one jot of evidence to suggest they are anymore dangerous than anyone else.


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## travellor (Jul 31, 2018)

There is not one jot of evidence, as only very recently have idd's been allowed to do sorts of things that weren't allowed before.
So, it may be backwards to you, but to me it's moving forward, in a structured way, and recognising mistakes of the past, but not by having a free for all in the future.

Would you trust every type 1 to be able to safely drive an ambulance?
I don't trust many non diabetics to even safety drive a car.


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## Frazer (Jul 31, 2018)

FYI its not about type one it's about idd and are you aware of the process an idd has to go through to get a full licence? Also the reason why the Dvla relaxed the rules is there was no evidence to suggest a well managed idd is anymore dangerous than any other driver. If you have any evidence at all I would love to see it.


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## Diabetes UK (Aug 1, 2018)

Please be reminded to keep posts respectful in discussion.


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## Diabetes UK (Aug 1, 2018)

The DVLA changed their guidance on Blue Light driving in Jan 2018. They confirmed that the same medical standards apply to drivers of emergency vehicles, as to anyone else. Whether an individual is safe to drive, is the responsibility of the employing authority to make a risk assessment, based on the individual (not based on assumptions of a medical condition, which could be deemed to be discriminatory).
In relation to insulin-dependent diabetes, this means taking into consideration bg levels, or whether someone has hypo awareness, to determine if that individual is fit to drive an emergency vehicle.


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## trophywench (Aug 1, 2018)

I'm not aware that an IDD has to go through any more onerous process to obtain a full driving licence than anyone else - we have to learn to drive then pass the driving test, then we get a full licence for 3 years.  Every 3 years we have to complete a medical form.  There are extra rules regarding BG testing before and during driving which don't apply to other people but neither are they onerous - they are simply prudent and look after me as much as they look after the other road users out and about whenever I choose to drive.

It's not as if we have to have an annual medical before our annually renewable licence may be renewed - unlike an HGV licence, and if nobody bothered to hold an HGV licence because of that - we'd all soon be short of everything that derives elsewhere than in walking distance of ourselves!  Not many people grow eg 100% of their own food, or live in adobe huts they've fabricated and baked themselves …….


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## Frazer (Aug 1, 2018)

Idd's can only get a 1 year licence to drive anything over 3.5 tonne. You have to be cleared by three doctors and then you get a one year medical level 2 dl


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## Diabetes UK (Aug 1, 2018)

Yes, and to bring it back to Ambulance driving, it is the responsibility of individual ambulance authorities to determine any higher standards and medical requirements over and above the group 1 or 2 licensing requirements.


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## Frazer (Aug 1, 2018)

Quite right Hannah but some trusts for example London allow paramedics to but not emergency ambulance crew therefore creating a defacto ban which is a big no no under the equality act. Diabetes.org  did not want to get involved thus endorsing discrimination by firms like the las


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## trophywench (Aug 1, 2018)

Well nobody passing their driving test today can drive over 3.5 tonnes either whether they have diabetes or not.  Then they have to study for and learn to pass the separate test - which us old uns never had to.

Rules change and they apply to different people in different ways.  You automatically lose your entitlement to drive anything over 3.5 tonne on your 70th birthday whether you drive a courier van for a living delivering my pump supplies or a 3650kg motorhome for your leisure.  As long as someone has checked to make sure you are still apparently capable of doing so I have no issue.  That's all the medical checks are doing - being prudent.

However - There's still nothing stopping me leaping into our 3.5 tonne 7.16m long motorhome right now despite the fact I've never driven anything that big in my life, nor my driving our Antara towing a ruddy great caravan despite the fact I've never ever towed anything whatsoever since passing my test.  

Some of the rules are still silly whatever you are licensed to drive!


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## Shadow (Nov 19, 2018)

Hey, how's this case going?
Apologies for being late, but I just joined in the forum and subject is personal to me.

I tried to get myself C-licence some years ago as I love driving and younger years was dreaming of becoming an ambulance driver.

There were couple of issues. I, myself, was then in my best condition with T1 and never had issues with driving. I, also take a pride with my driving skills, well aware of how hypo works, etc...
Apart from other issues, DVLA made my licence process very difficult. I did the medical licence on two years and both times took six months to sort out. And they were very p***y about it all. I got tired of the whole bullying and gave up.
But what I have understood, it is the DVLA itself, who (if they could) ban all the diabetics off the road and that the EU put pressure on them to allow diabetics to drive again. This was due to some big accident happened in 2012. Rules may have changed since then, I don't know.
But it is everywhere put as in a guideline that any driving professions aren't recommended or not suitable diabetics.
If I'd knew how difficult it would be, I wouldn't have rolled on the course. And gutted as I love driving.

But, on the other hand, I understand DVLA's stance on this. If not well controlled, it is a dangerous disease and lot's of people lie about their condition, as it seem to be easy to do that.


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## Frazer (Dec 7, 2018)

We in London, and quite a few trusts the ignorance is over! Policies are either in place or in the pipeline for some trusts. The DVLA removed the restriction some time ago and it was then left to individual trusts to discriminate! Hopefully in London too the end is nigh for this sort of discrimination. If an idd is not well controlled they would not be able to obtain a medical level 2 driving licence. It is quite a long process and initially you have to obtain at least 3 doctors and possibly a 4th being yiur consultant for a report for the DVLA. It is not an easy process and generally trusts requirements are the same as the DVLA.

Frazer


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