# Hi, new to this site. Having problems with DIAB1 form



## Ron Ashworth (Mar 11, 2021)

Licence revoked due to erroneous entry on DIAB1 form


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## Ron Ashworth (Mar 11, 2021)

Last November I went onto Insulin to help to control my Glucose Levels. Practice Nurse told me to inform the DVLA. I obtained a DIAB1 form and answered 1,4 with a yes because I had a single hypo two years ago when recovering from a knee replacement operation that was done with an epidural injection. I am certain that I have had no further hypos because my finger prick readings have never gone below 4mmol/L. I answered 1,5 by ticking the no box because the I have had no incidence of an Hypo since.  I was upset to receive a letter from the DVLA last week revoking my licence. I phoned the DVLA who told me that the tick in the no box was taken as an admission that I had lost awareness of  warning symptoms of an imminent hypo. I have had to resubmit a new DIAB1 plus a D1 licence application and surrender my licence, I am afraid that I will be without a licence for an extended period given the glacier like progress that the DVLA take to deal with this kind of issue.


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## Inka (Mar 12, 2021)

Question 1.5 asks if you have hypo awareness. I’m confused as to why you said No if you _do_ have awareness. Of course the DVLA revoked your licence - you basically admitted you were unsafe to drive. 

“_Do you get warning symptoms of low blood sugar (hypoglycaemia)?  Yes or No”_

The tick in the No box wasn’t ‘taken’ as an admission - it was what you actually said. It seems like you were answering a different question than was asked... 

I don’t know how long it will take the DVLA to process your application but they might want proof you *do* still have awareness. I’d wait to see what they say. Other members here have said the DVLA has been quite quick recently, so maybe you won’t have to wait too long.


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## Ron Ashworth (Mar 12, 2021)

I appreciate I was wrong to tick the no box. If there had been  a not applicable box I would have ticked that box or if there had been a box to comment, I would have done so. Anyway I will have to be patient.
Sent in a Subject Access Request.


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## Robin (Mar 12, 2021)

Ron Ashworth said:


> I appreciate I was wrong to tick the no box. If there had been  a not applicable box I would have ticked that box or if there had been a box to comment, I would have done so. Anyway I will have to be patient.
> Sent in a Subject Access Request.


The wording isn’t the best, is it. Once you’ve been on insulin for years and are used to the forms, it seems obvious what to tick or not, but I read the question out of my non-diabetic and rather literal minded husband, who has the same amount of background knowledge as a newly diagnosed or new to insulin person would have, and he says he'd have got it wrong and ticked 'No' on the grounds that if he hadn’t had a hypo (after the anomalous one-off in hospital) he wouldn’t have felt any symptoms!


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## Ron Ashworth (Mar 12, 2021)

Robin said:


> The wording isn’t the best, is it. Once you’ve been on insulin for years and are used to the forms, it seems obvious what to tick or not, but I read the question out of my non-diabetic and rather literal minded husband, who has the same amount of background knowledge as a newly diagnosed or new to insulin person would have, and he says he'd have got it wrong and ticked 'No' on the grounds that if he hadn’t had a hypo (after the anomalous one-off in hospital) he wouldn’t have felt any symptoms!


Exactly. How could I answer yes when I have had no hypos?  This is a classic catch 22 situation. I cannot truthfully answer yes because I have not had any hypos in the last 2 years. If I answer no, they revoke my licence. Furthermore, they take my no answer as being medical evidence of a lack of awareness, when I have no medical qualifications. They didn't bother to ask my GP.  I will obtain a copy of all personal data they have on me and raise a formal complaint.


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## everydayupsanddowns (Mar 12, 2021)

Sorry to hear about the errors on the form you submitted @Ron Ashworth  

You aren’t the first to find the questions about hypoglycaemia a bit tricky to answer in the way they intend the questions to be understood, unfortunately

Hopefully there isn’t too much of a backlog at the moment. I submitted my renewal forms a few weeks ago, and did worry a little about possible delays in getting my renewed license back, but thankfully they processed my forms very promptly.

Hopefully with the assistance of your GP they will be reassured it was a simple mistake, and misunderstanding of the wording, and be able to process your appeal swiftly.


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## Ron Ashworth (Mar 14, 2021)

I am hopeful that I will get my licence back soon but however long it takes I am minded to ultimately raise a formal complaint because the DIAB1 form questions are impossible to answer truthfully without having your licence revoked.

1.4   _Have you ever had an episode of low blood sugar (hypoglycaemia) whilst awake?_ two boxes yes and no. I ticked the yes box.

1.5  _If yes, do you get warning symptoms of low blood sugar (hypoglycaemia)?
Warning symptoms will make you aware of when an episode of low blood sugar is occuring.  _

Two boxes to answer yes and no.

I answered no because I had ever only had one hypo while recovering from a knee replacement in hospital, in 2019, when the anaesthetist gave me glucose tablets. I carefully monitor my blood sugar by use of Tee2 test strips 4+ times per day. I have never had a reading below 4.5 mml/L. By answering no I was effectively saying not applicable but there is not a N/A box. However the DVLA took my no answer has being an admission that had lost awareness of an impending hypo and revoked my licence. 

This type of question would be ruled out of order in a court of law. The example quoted is, "when did you stop beating your wife? Mr Blogs". However Mr Bloggs answers he would be admitting that he beat his wife. Whether the respondent answers yes or no, they will admit to having a wife and having beaten her at some time in the past. Thus, these facts are _presupposed_ by the question, and in this case an entrapment, because it narrows the respondent to a single answer, and the fallacy of many questions has been committed. A common way out of this argument is not to answer the question (e.g. with a simple 'yes' or 'no'), but to challenge the assumption behind the question. To use an earlier example, a good response to the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" would be "I have _never_ beaten my wife". This removes the ambiguity of the expected response, therefore nullifying the tactic. 
The DVLA did not provide me with a box to explain my no answer to 1.5 and simply revoked my licence.


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## Inka (Mar 14, 2021)

Yes, the questions are nerve-wracking, but if you keep in mind why they’re asking, you can answer appropriately and truthfully. All they want to know is if you’re aware of your blood sugar dropping. You can see, I hope, why they revoked your licence. You said Yes you had a hypo and then said No you weren’t aware when your blood sugar was dropping. How could they possibly give you a licence in those circumstances? You didn’t write N/A or put an explanation - you wrote No.

t’m sure once your mistake is examined and any necessary proof is provided, you’ll get your licence back, but I’d far rather the DVLA erred on the side of caution - not because of you but for the many drivers who seem to see driving as a right not a responsibility.

If you still think the question is ambiguous, how about imagining it with regard to another condition like epilepsy? That might make it clearer in a more objective way. “Have you ever had a seizure” - Yes. “Do you have warnings that you’re about to have a seizure?” No. You can, I hope see why that person wouldn’t get a licence...

I know it’s stressful - I get stressed every time even though I’ve applied many times before. Please don’t take the revocation personally. You misunderstood. You’re correcting that. You should get your licence back - hopefully soon.


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## Ron Ashworth (Mar 17, 2021)

Managed to get through to the DVLA Medical section after waiting for 45 minutes for an advisor to answer. She confirmed that they had received my revised DIAB1 and D1, I asked what timescale would apply to them dealing with the matter. She said that there was no timescale that she could give me at the present time. I asked if there was an SLA covering their performance targets. She did not know what an SLA (Service Level Agreement) was. I asked if there were timescale targets before the present time, She simply reiterated that there were no timescales at the present time.  I gave up.
No commercial organisation could get away with this level of customer service.


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## Ron Ashworth (Mar 23, 2021)

Given they have made my life a misery revoking my licence on the basis of an ambiguous DIAB1 form, have decided to put them under pressure. On 5th March I sent in a Subject Access Request letter to Tim Burton, Head of Drivers Medical Group. I was not obliged to use their form and wrote,

"_Please disclose the data you hold about me, processed since August 2020, which I am entitled to receive under data protection law, held in:
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_My individual files, both electronic and hardcopy._
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_All emails and written notes relating to me, generated within Drivers Medical Group in particular and with other DVLA departments, between your staff and to and from external individuals/bodies such as my GP._
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_Any telephone logs including notes of conversations within DVLA, with me and any external bodies._
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_Correspondence to and from me. Would you please note that I have retained copies of my letter dated 3rd March plus the completed DIAB1 and D1 dated 3rd March 2021, These items from me were delivered by Royal Mail Special Delivery and signed for by S C Barrow when delivered at 5:35am yesterday, Thursday 4th March 2021._
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_Any policy documents, case notes, protocols guidelines and internal communications relating to your determination that I have lost the awareness of impending hypoglycaemic attacks._
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_Any guidelines or algorithms that were applied in my case relating to completion of sections 1.4 and 1.5 of a DIAB1._
_If you need any more information, please let me know as soon as possible. I would prefer to receive the data in a printed out format. Would you please note that a Subject Access Requests do not have to be made on a form from the DVLA. This letter is sufficient.

It may be helpful for you to know that data protection law requires you to respond to a request for personal data within one calendar month.

If you do not normally deal with these requests, please pass this letter to your data protection officer or relevant staff member.

If you need advice on dealing with this request, the Information Commissioner’s Office can assist you. Its website is ico.org.uk, or it can be contacted on 0303 123 1113.

Yours faithfully



_
They now have until 5th April to reply or I will make a complaint to the Information Commisioners Office.

I  have also started a formal complaint by writing to their Complaints Section with the intention of getting my MP involved.

I also note that the Union at DVLA, the Public and Commercial Services Union, are organising a ballot to authorise strike action to pressure the DVLA to let more of them work from home. I do wonder if the staff at Swansea are already operating a go slow in their dealing with motorists._



​_


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## Docb (Mar 23, 2021)

I like that @Ron Ashworth.  Let us know what you get back.  

Chances are that they will try and get away with doing next to nothing and you will have to persevere and really make a nuisance of yourself before you get anywhere.  If you can get your MP involved then that will shake them up.


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## Lucyr (Mar 23, 2021)

You don’t need to have a hypo to get hypo warning symptoms, you should feel your blood sugar dropping when it is getting close to your lowest readings so high 4s for you, or when it is dropping fast. If you feel your bg dropping in these scenarios then you know you have hypo awareness, since the value of hypo awareness is to fix the blood sugar before a dangerous low.


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## Ron Ashworth (Mar 24, 2021)

Lucyr said:


> You don’t need to have a hypo to get hypo warning symptoms, you should feel your blood sugar dropping when it is getting close to your lowest readings so high 4s for you, or when it is dropping fast. If you feel your bg dropping in these scenarios then you know you have hypo awareness, since the value of hypo awareness is to fix the blood sugar before a dangerous low.


Exactly. If I feel a little bit jittery and my blood sugar readings are around 4.5 to 5.0  I increase my carbohydrate consumption. I have to be aware of exactly what is going on because If I were to inject insulin at these low blood sugar values, I would risk serious problems in the form of a grave hypo. I only inject myself with insulin before a meal if my blood glucose level exceeds 10mmol/L.  At present time I only need to inject 3 or 4 times per week with a maximum volume of 2 units of insulin. In fact, I wonder if I need insulin at all given my most recent *Hemoglobin* A1c was 4.1. I am not sure how DVLA would react if my GP and practice nurse agreed for me to stop using insulin at all.


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## trophywench (Mar 24, 2021)

What you've just  said re 'jittery & shaky' speaks volumes to me that your have EXCELLENT hypo warning signals - did nobody tell you - before they gave you the wherewithall to inject insulin - that this could very very easily happen and is about the commonest hypo feeling ever by far, when your BG was getting low - or did you just have to realise that yourself?

I despair, if you weren't told.  What bloomin' (changed that from the word I really want to use here) chance does anyone stand of surviving and flourishing, if they aren't told that on Insulin start day and at any other possible opportunity for the next few years?  Aaaaaaaaagghh.


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## Lucyr (Mar 24, 2021)

Ron Ashworth said:


> Exactly. If I feel a little bit jittery and my blood sugar readings are around 4.5 to 5.0  I increase my carbohydrate consumption. I have to be aware of exactly what is going on because If I were to inject insulin at these low blood sugar values, I would risk serious problems in the form of a grave hypo. I only inject myself with insulin before a meal if my blood glucose level exceeds 10mmol/L.  At present time I only need to inject 3 or 4 times per week with a maximum volume of 2 units of insulin. In fact, I wonder if I need insulin at all given my most recent *Hemoglobin* A1c was 4.1. I am not sure how DVLA would react if my GP and practice nurse agreed for me to stop using insulin at all.


This means that you do get warning symptoms before low blood sugar and should answer yes to the question. 

“_Do you get warning symptoms of low blood sugar (hypoglycaemia)? Yes or No”_


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## Ron Ashworth (Mar 24, 2021)

I realise that now. I thought the question 1.5 refered to actual hypos, ie blood sugar of less than 4.0mmol/L.


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## Ron Ashworth (Mar 26, 2021)

Sorry to harp on but I have looked very closely at 1.4 and 1.5 of the DIAB1.

Having answered yes to 1.4, I am asked in 1.5,
“_Do you get warning symptoms of low blood sugar (hypoglycaemia)? Yes or No
Warning symptoms will make you aware of when an episode of low sugar *is *occuring"_

Note the second line which says "when an episode of low sugar is occuring". (Present tense) Not when a hypo is impending. (Future tense) . I ticked NO in 1.5 because I had not experienced any current episodes. It looks like I had my licence revoked because an answer was construed to a question that was never actually asked.

Another question. How would DVLA react if my doctor agreed to the ending of my insulin prescription. This not an academic question. I only inject two units of insulin when my blood sugar exceeds 10mmol/M before a meal. This has only been necessary because the incidence of readings above 10mmol/L only occur 2 or 3 times a week. My first insulin pen has lasted almost 4 months.


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## Lucyr (Mar 26, 2021)

Ron Ashworth said:


> Sorry to harp on but I have looked very closely at 1.4 and 1.5 of the DIAB1.
> 
> Having answered yes to 1.4, I am asked in 1.5,
> “_Do you get warning symptoms of low blood sugar (hypoglycaemia)? Yes or No
> ...


The symptoms you get when you’re blood sugar is 4.5 wouldn’t suddenly disappear when your blood sugar hits 3.9 so yes you do have symptoms when a hypo is occurring because the symptoms would still be there.


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## Ron Ashworth (Apr 7, 2021)

Now got 41 page document in response to my SAR. Included is a letter, dated 25th March from a Senior DVLA Doctor to my GP requesting my GP to complete a DIAB3 form. Does anyone know what a DIAB3 looks like? I have asked my GP to let me know when they actually receive the DIAB3, and asked that I see the completed form before it is returned.
As of today, my GP has not received the letter, presumably because it was sent second class. Have asked them to send a duplicate by first class post.

I have also received a response to my stage 1 formal complaint primarily related to the wording in sections 1.4 and 1.5 of the DIAB1 form.  They contend that I should have learned from my hypo about the symptoms of an hypo.  This is ludicrous. That hypo was in the recovery room after the replacemnt of my my knee when I had an epidural and was on strong sedatives. I was on nil by mouth that day until after the operation at 2.00pm. The hypo was spotted by the anaesthetist using blood samples. I was awake but hardly in an hypo awareness building situation.  I have had no hypo episodes since so how could I answer about symptoms that I have never experienced. My judgement about potential hypos is based on empirical data informed by test strips, not vague symptoms which could be caused by a large number of conditions. For instance, anxiety, is not exclusively caused by hypos but can be indicative of psychotic illness.

Anyway Stage 2 complaint sent to Chief Executive's Office.


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## Inka (Apr 7, 2021)

I didn’t find a DIAB3 online @Ron Ashworth but I imagine it just asks medical questions to ensure your fitness to drive.

To my mind, the hypo awareness question is asking if people are aware their blood sugar is dropping/going low. It’s possible to be aware of _approaching_ hypo territory without actually having a hypo. (As you say, we test and ward them off).


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## trophywench (Apr 8, 2021)

They (governmental departments) design forms so that they adequately cover the majority of people who need to use them, to provide the info that department needs.  The form DOES adequately cover the vast majority of us.  There will always be exceptions to most things anyone ever designs.  This does not mean it is necessary or cost effective to redesign the thing.  They are using the query system that is inbuilt but are simply extra mega slow. which is annoying.  Hope it gets sorted for you anyway.


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## Docb (Apr 8, 2021)

Hi Ron.  My first guess was that you would get next to nothing from your request but they have bypassed that and gone to stage 2, information overload, straight away.  One way of dealing with that is to go through it and send back a long list of further issues arising from the information which require further clarification.  You have to be a bit dogged about it because eventually someone will decide that it actually less work to deal directly with the issue you have raised than it is to fob you off.  Have you copied in your MP to your correspondence? That can be very helpful if your MP sees the basic point you are making.

I am involved with a community led project with the objective of getting Thames Water to recognise that their operating practice at a particular sewage works is by any standards unacceptable despite the fact they can claim that they meet the requirements of their operating licence.  A lot of doggedness is needed to make any progress but progress can be made, you just do not have to lose sight of the basic issue.  For the sewage works it is that dumping raw sewage into a roadside ditch is wrong even though the permits can be interpreted in such a way to allow it, and in your case it is that a question is written in such a way that there can be ambiguity in the answer.  

Keep going!


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## Ron Ashworth (Apr 8, 2021)

My GP has now recieved the DIAB3 from the Drivers Medical Group. I have asked my GP to discuss the content of the DIAB3 before he sends it back. That should happen next week and, all being well, I should get my licence back by the end of April.

I am minded to persist with my complaint which is now at Chief Executive level. I take Jenny's point about the design of forms being constrained by the large number of typical applicants, however if they apply their rules in a draconian and arbitary way, that seriously penalise diligent individuals like me, they should deal with representations quickly with flexibility and common sense.  If an hospital or local authority were as dilatory and unresponsive as the DVLA, the government would put them in special measures.


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## trophywench (Apr 8, 2021)

I was long employed in a customer service occupation but dealing with the same clients over a long period gives a great advantage to both sides of the conversation - I knew both who I could joke with because they'd appreciate as did I - and when it had to be deadly serious.  In a public role it must be B hard to balance facts/Rules graven in stone with empathy/kindness - and was but one jolly good reason why I soon found out the Civil Service was not for me, before my 17th birthday.


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## everydayupsanddowns (Apr 11, 2021)

Glad to hear it looks like you will be getting your license back by the end of the month @Ron Ashworth


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## Ron Ashworth (Apr 19, 2021)

Slight problem. DIAB3 sent to GP on 25th March. As yet my GP has done nothing about it. Tried to get a meeting with the Practice Manager in the hope that she can expedite matters. DVLA even sent a duplicate DIAB3 last week. Any suggestions about what I can do about this?

Also received a response to my Stage 2 complaint from a guy in the Complaints Section. He did not say whether he was responding to my complaint or my request that the Drivers Medical Section reconsider my revocation. He maintained that my escalation route was to apply to the local Magistrates with 6 months of the revocation of my licence. He thus tried to side step my formal complaint. I have pointed out to him that I am following two processes and as far as my complaint is concerned I was minded to ask the DfT to appoint an Independent Complaints Assessor to consider my complaint.  I have requested an apology from Mr Burton, Head of Drivers Medical Group and financial compensation for the inconvenience caused by the revocation of my licence.


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## everydayupsanddowns (Apr 22, 2021)

Sorry to hear your GP isn’t responding in a very timely way to the DIAB3 Ron. Obviously the primary care system is very stretched at the moment, which can’t be helping.

Hopefully your meeting with the Practice Manager will bear fruit


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## Big Tony (Feb 9, 2022)

So what was the D1AB3 form ? I appreciate that I am a late to this forum.


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## Inka (Feb 9, 2022)

Big Tony said:


> So what was the D1AB3 form ? I appreciate that I am a late to this forum.



I think that’s the one sent to your GP to fill out @Big Tony


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