# Fence boundary problems



## Monica (Nov 13, 2011)

Our neighbour decided to put up a new fence, which is fine. it's their right to do. But....
Theyhave put the new posts, which are twice as big as the old ones, up, putting a string marking the border on it. Well the string is on the other side of the posts, which suggests the posts are on our property. Unfortunately, we've had trouble with them before over petty things, so now every time we complain, they think we're being unreasonable (to put it mildly) Swearwords were used only by them. They don't speak to OH at all unless they have to. 

Well, yesterday it nearly came to blows. Since they still speak to me, they have been communicating with me over this fence and I've given them permission to come into our garden to dig up holes for the new posts. So I decided that I would go over and tell them that "I" wasn't happy about where they'd put the post (at that time there was only one up) and could they please come and have a look. They were having none of it and started shouting and telling us to get lawyers involved etc. Their son even wanted to punch OH.

So again, they've walked all over us.

I wish we could move....


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## Pumper_Sue (Nov 13, 2011)

Simple solution Monica is get the deeds out or ask land registery to look into it. Oh and whilst you are at it remove the permission to come on your land. Thus they will have to put the fence up on their land.


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## Monica (Nov 13, 2011)

Pumper_Sue said:


> Simple solution Monica is get the deeds out or ask land registery to look into it. Oh and whilst you are at it remove the permission to come on your land. Thus they will have to put the fence up on their land.



I wish we did have the deeds, although they'd be well out of date, as we both have moved our garages forward. I looked at the landregistry website, it costs ?95 to have a look. 
OH has already denied them permission after all the ruckus. They managed to finish it off without going on our land, apart from the fact the posts are still there.

OH can't be bothered with them anymore and he hates seeing me upset, so we're just letting them get on with it. I can't believe they wouldn't move the post by 1 inch (which is all they could do anyway, as they've got a patio right there). Half of the post would still be on our land regardless. Of course we're going to get the "Ugly" side.

I googled about which fence is yours etc. I didn't realise that if the post is on your side, it's your fence (in general), unless it's the other neighbour who generally maintains the fence (in effect takes over the responsibility). So their fence IS their fence, as they put it up after removing the original garage, but we still get the "ugly" side). So the fence on our other side, bordering the other neighbour is our fence and we have 2 "ugly" sides


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## Ellie Jones (Nov 13, 2011)

Monica

If you've got a mortgage then the mortgage company will have the deeds to the property you own, on here is all the details of your land boundaries and who is responsible for which fence etc.

Your mortgage company won't give you a copy of your whole deeds, but will copy your boundary details from the deed, and at a lot less cost than the land registry.

I would speak to a solicitor most on things such as this will do an free 30 mins or their is the CAB..

As to the patio no if its their patio, and if it's in the way then they will just have to move it..

Me I would refuse permission for them to come onto my land, and inform them that any material, such as concrete, fence post that is on your land will be removed and returned to them..

Then thing is if you get solicitor involved and you win then you can make them pay your solicitor fee's..

But I would hold your ground, I would also inform them that any threats against your will be reported to the police, has that is totally out of order..


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## HOBIE (Nov 13, 2011)

Good luck with this Monica !   That sort of thing winds me up 2. If you live in a semi detached count the bricks between !   My next door "person tried it on me" and wasnt happy and by simply counting bricks he was  proven  wrong !!


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## Pumper_Sue (Nov 13, 2011)

Sends Monica her lovely neighbours who, when having to put up a new fence due to old one falling down kindly asked if it was ok explained the problem he was going to have with the posts ie.having to use about 2 inches of my garden in this spot but had worked it so I gained back the 2 inches at the top of the garden. He also came around with his wife and planted some lovely climbing roses against the fence (to take the newness away) oh and as an added thought to say welcome to your new home.


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## cherrypie (Nov 13, 2011)

This might help Monica,
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index...here_you_live_index_ew/neighbour_disputes.htm

As you will see there, you can have some free advice.

I would be inclined to pursue this as if you let them get away with it then what will be the next thing?


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## Monica (Nov 13, 2011)

Ellie Jones said:


> Monica
> 
> I would speak to a solicitor most on things such as this will do an free 30 mins or their is the CAB..
> 
> ...



Thanks Ellie Jones

OH did tell him, if he touches him, police will be called. Mum called him back.
I hate any kind of confrontation, OH doesn't. I don't know if he will continue with the fight though.



HOBIE said:


> Good luck with this Monica !   That sort of thing winds me up 2. If you live in a semi detached count the bricks between !   My next door "person tried it on me" and wasnt happy and by simply counting bricks he was  proven  wrong !!



This boundary isn't with the "attached" neighbour. It's the other one. They built an extension a few years back, right on the boundary, so we had arguments about that. They conceded and we were allowed to use their wall as our wall, when we built our extension. But our houses are not aligned. Ou house is set further back, so we had to build a proportion of the sidewall ourselves, to align it with the back of our house. OH says that he and his builder friend built this bit of wall at a slight angle well into our land away from the fence already there.
The neighbour screwed a screw into that bit of wall to mark the border.

I've just found on landregistry that it'll cost only ?4 to find the border, but I can't do it until tomorrow. I just might do that.

On the plus side, they haven't continued with their fence today, so if it is to come down.....


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## David H (Nov 13, 2011)

Monica said:


> I wish we did have the deeds, although they'd be well out of date, as we both have moved our garages forward. I looked at the landregistry website, it costs ?95 to have a look.
> OH has already denied them permission after all the ruckus. They managed to finish it off without going on our land, apart from the fact the posts are still there.
> 
> OH can't be bothered with them anymore and he hates seeing me upset, so we're just letting them get on with it. I can't believe they wouldn't move the post by 1 inch (which is all they could do anyway, as they've got a patio right there). Half of the post would still be on our land regardless. Of course we're going to get the "Ugly" side.
> ...



I believe that if they supply all the materials and labour and you don't make a financial contribution to the cost, then you're stuck with the supports on your side.

However if you had split the costs, the support posts would have to be positioned on the boundary line (ie. the centre of the post on the boundary line)
Then planks could be alternated between theirs and your sides giving a step effect to the fence.

If you don't want to look at fencing posts then put planking or woodlap panels on your part, on either side of the garden.

I know that's not much help, I found out the hard way years ago.


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## Monica (Nov 13, 2011)

cherrypie said:


> This might help Monica,
> http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index...here_you_live_index_ew/neighbour_disputes.htm
> 
> As you will see there, you can have some free advice.
> ...



Thanks cherrypie.

This bad vibe between the neighbours and OH started because their son (when he first started to drive) always parked his car/van outside our drive, so that OH couldn't get into the drive. He only needed to park a little bit over to the side.....
Polite requests fell on deaf ears. So OH became stroppy. Once the son even knocked down our fence at the front by reversing into it. He didn't even come over to apologise and promise to make it right straight away. When OH went to complain he slammed the door into his face. From then on it just went downhill....


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## Monica (Nov 13, 2011)

David H said:


> I believe that if they supply all the materials and labour and you don't make a financial contribution to the cost, then you're stuck with the supports on your side.
> 
> However if you had split the costs, the support posts would have to be positioned on the boundary line (ie. the centre of the post on the boundary line)
> Then planks could be alternated between theirs and your sides giving a step effect to the fence.
> ...



I'm not too bothered that we have the posts facing us, I just don't want them on our land. 
They knew better than to ask us to contribute....


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## Monica (Nov 13, 2011)

Pumper_Sue said:


> Sends Monica her lovely neighbours who, when having to put up a new fence due to old one falling down kindly asked if it was ok explained the problem he was going to have with the posts ie.having to use about 2 inches of my garden in this spot but had worked it so I gained back the 2 inches at the top of the garden. He also came around with his wife and planted some lovely climbing roses against the fence (to take the newness away) oh and as an added thought to say welcome to your new home.



LOL, THANK YOU SUE


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## Pumper_Sue (Nov 13, 2011)

Monica said:


> Thanks cherrypie.
> 
> This bad vibe between the neighbours and OH started because their son (when he first started to drive) always parked his car/van outside our drive, so that OH couldn't get into the drive. He only needed to park a little bit over to the side.....
> Polite requests fell on deaf ears. So OH became stroppy. Once the son even knocked down our fence at the front by reversing into it. He didn't even come over to apologise and promise to make it right straight away. When OH went to complain he slammed the door into his face. From then on it just went downhill....



Oh there's a very easy way to get your own back in situations like this.

Just ring up your home ins company and explain that car reg number owned by XX has just knocked down your post and is refusing to pay for it. Please could you as my insurers pursue  a claim against him. His no claims will be gone and his ins will go through the roof.

As an added thought Monica, you will also have free legal advice attached to your car and home ins policies. Make good use of them


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## mcdonagh47 (Nov 13, 2011)

Monica said:


> Our neighbour decided to put up a new fence, which is fine. it's their right to do. But....
> Theyhave put the new posts, which are twice as big as the old ones, up,
> So again, they've walked all over us.
> 
> I wish we could move....



I might be wrong but I always understood that the fence on the LEFT was your fence.


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## trophywench (Nov 13, 2011)

I thought that too (on the left) but when we moved here and I said that my MkII chap said no it's the right.

He said that because we have the back of our left hand fence ergo it must belong to our neighbour ergo my OH won't creosote our side of it ....


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## cherrypie (Nov 13, 2011)

Have a read through this and add to the confusion.
http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/boundary-problems/fences.html#top


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## Catwoman76 (Nov 13, 2011)

Monica said:


> Our neighbour decided to put up a new fence, which is fine. it's their right to do. But....
> Theyhave put the new posts, which are twice as big as the old ones, up, putting a string marking the border on it. Well the string is on the other side of the posts, which suggests the posts are on our property. Unfortunately, we've had trouble with them before over petty things, so now every time we complain, they think we're being unreasonable (to put it mildly) Swearwords were used only by them. They don't speak to OH at all unless they have to.
> 
> Well, yesterday it nearly came to blows. Since they still speak to me, they have been communicating with me over this fence and I've given them permission to come into our garden to dig up holes for the new posts. So I decided that I would go over and tell them that "I" wasn't happy about where they'd put the post (at that time there was only one up) and could they please come and have a look. They were having none of it and started shouting and telling us to get lawyers involved etc. Their son even wanted to punch OH.
> ...



Dear Monica please don't think that your neighbours have walked allover you, again. It's just that some people will try to get their own way, whatever, even if it causes stress or worry to the other party.

My neighbours had a 6 ft fence put up ( by the housing association) as the small slated fence was put there by the previous tennants( council) and the people who live there now bought thehouse a few years ago.  So the association has put up this big fence ( blocking out view of their neighbours) which they are quite pleased about.  Adam told me that the 'good' side must be visible on the neighbours side, he was told this by Housing association.

My thread about the fly tipping fence panel outside my dad's back garden has stirred up problems, but I know I did the right thing by putting up a note of my dad's fence post, even though it has opened a can of worms. 
Log everything down, date ,time verbal conversations etc.  It will help you if anything else comes up.  I wish you good luck with this and if you need anything, then I'm here.  Take care and best wishes Sheena


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## Twitchy (Nov 13, 2011)

Hi Monica,

From a tv program I saw a while back (must be true, lol) some councils offer a mediation service to try & help neighbours deal with situations like this - might be worth looking into? Our area's a bit rubbish though - when our neighbour's laurel 'bush' was at 20+ ft high (despite numerous request to trim it back to the local legal max of 6' / fence height), we looked into what we could get done about it officially & because it was a tree/hedge issue there would have been a cost of around ?360 to get the council to look into the issue, with no guarantee that you'd get anywhere- so areas do vary!  Luckily they moved... We had something similar with the cars too - the house opposite is rented & when guests of the previous lot there hit my car putting a whopping dent in it they just drove off - because we didn't see it happen (a neighbour only told us they saw it happen weeks later, grr!!) we couldn't prove anything & had to pay to get it sorted ourselves. I guess some people are just scum...


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## Robster65 (Nov 13, 2011)

Another website for you Monica. http://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/boundaries.html

They have a forum also that has legal members who can offer free advice.

I've had similar issus to you, re: parking across driveway, noise, abuse, etc and sadly, the only solution we found was to move. 

But you do have the law to turn to if you need it and you can get a free half hour at a solicitor (assume you still can?) for advice.

WIsh you the very best. It's nasty when you live next door to bullies.

Rob


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## margie (Nov 13, 2011)

Do you have a copy of any documentation from when you bought the house. I know that the document we got from the solicitor covered the fences and in our case they are meant due to a covenant (I think) to be the joint responsibility of us and our neighbours.


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## novorapidboi26 (Nov 14, 2011)

Do you not need planning permission to erect an entirely new fence over 1 metre high, dont quote me..........

But if it was required, you would of been notified, which has not happened apparently......

Nobody want to argue with their neighbours, but I would make sure they are doing it by the book.........

Good luck.....


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## Monica (Nov 14, 2011)

margie said:


> Do you have a copy of any documentation from when you bought the house. I know that the document we got from the solicitor covered the fences and in our case they are meant due to a covenant (I think) to be the joint responsibility of us and our neighbours.



When we first moved here , there was no fence, because we had the garages there, so there won't be a document about a fence.
When they first built the extension, they had to put a fence there, as their garage then got dismantled.


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## Monica (Nov 14, 2011)

There is no dispute about who's fence it is, it is theirs. The dispute is as to where they put the posts. I took a few more photos this morning demonstrating that they didn't put the fence post in the right place.

OH is off with poorly shoulder, so we're discussing this now. We looked at our legal assistance on our house insurance to see if it's included. As we're off to GP's in a mo, he said he'd ring them after to see where we stand.


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## Caroline (Nov 14, 2011)

Get advice from the CAB. For fences over  meter high you have to consider things like is it blocking your neighbours light. We have replaced both of our boundry fences (we are an end house so we have two) and we didn't get planning permission and the neighbours were quite happy with what we did. One of our boundry fences is next to the pavement so it is a couple of meteres high.

If you think the neighbours have infringed on planning laws check withthe local council planning department and see what advice they can offer.


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## Monica (Nov 14, 2011)

I still wonder if it's worth all this bother because of a couple of inches.


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## Robster65 (Nov 14, 2011)

Normally, you can erect fences/walls at the rear up to 2m without planning consent I think. Might be local byelaws/covenants.

If you come to sell, the surveyor may pick it up and then you'd need to tackle them. It's a choice of either do it now, do it if you want to sell or take a lower asking price in lieu of lost land I would imagine.

I'd go for legal advice and see what's said. I wonder if it would be trespass, in which case there would be plenty of precedence to check on.

Rob


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## novorapidboi26 (Nov 14, 2011)

I think your right in terms of the technical side of things, its only a few inches..............but its their attitude that I think that needs to change, so as to prevent any future misunderstandings..........


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## trophywench (Nov 14, 2011)

Our adjoining neighbour built an extension at the front, none of it was a prob but they added the money to their mortgage and they had a letter from the Halifax saying because the foundation of it would extend 2 inches over our boundary they had to get our permission in writing.  It was entirely potty because as we all said at the time, thanks Eddie, we'll be able to go straight off your footings when we build ours ... and of course, it was completely underground anyway!  So we gave him a foot (in the letter) and he actually built the foundation with the blocks sticking out rather than cutting them into half bricks on the corners, to make it easier when we did ...

So much easier all round when you can have a reasonable discussion about stuff.  Nowt so queer as folk ........


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## Ellie Jones (Nov 14, 2011)

Is it worth it..

Can't answer that one as it is really up to you..

A couple of inches of land isn't cheap thing to give away for free and the actual impact could be far reaching and actually leave you more out of pocket than standing your ground.

If you have a narrow garden, then a couple of inches is going to make it even narrower, if a 6ft fence goes up this is really going to impact on the visual aspect of the narrowness, and could dependant on which way your garden faces mean that it's permanently in the shadows...

This could in the future if you chose to move, effect the asking price and could be the difference between it selling or having to except a lower than the already reduce selling price.

Where as your neighbour has a slightly larger garden which commands a higher price.

A couple of question, why aren't they using the existing fence posts for the old fencing, and when did they build that patio?

I've had my back fence moved back by 2 inches to where my actual boundary is and this tiny amount makes a real difference to my garden didn't think it would and it was only done when the fencing had to be replaced 2 years ago..

But the only ones who can say it's worth the hassle of sticking up to prevent somebody stealing your land is you and your hubby.


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## Monica (Nov 14, 2011)

OH has called house insurance people. They'll ring back.

Ellie - they put the first fence up with wooden posts, which have rotted away at the bottom. The fence was still standing, imho nothing wrong with it. They built the patio a few years after they put the fence up. those wooden posts were right against the concrete under the patio. The new ones are about 2 inches away from said concrete. I expected them to put the new (much bigger) posts against the concrete too.

I have taken photos, but I can't remember how to put them on here.

To say it again - the only issue we have is the position of the fence posts, not the height or anything else.


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## trophywench (Nov 14, 2011)

Did they concrete the posts in, this time Monica?

Just thinking if they did, they would need some new concrete round their side of the posts so that's where the nip round next door with the 'Awfully sorry, but ...' should have kicked in ....


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## novorapidboi26 (Nov 14, 2011)

Is it next to road [highway]..............?

check this out...................http://www.planning-applications.co.uk/domesticp10.htm

I may be interpreting it wrong, but planning may be required here..........and if it was granted, there would be no issue to were they are obliged to erect their fence........

also found this response to the question, how high before you need planning;

Any fence or wall that is within 2 metres of the highway (defined as the back of the pavement) is restricted to 1 metre (3ft 3in). In any other case it is 2 metres.


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## trophywench (Nov 14, 2011)

Q.  When is a highway not a highway?

A.  When it's a public footpath.

We have same, running along one side of our house, the entire right hand boundary of our land.

We needed PP in order to rebuild the garage (which had been here forever prior to us and we only had to insult it before it lay on the ground it was that old) because of that, despite the fact it was a foot or two inside our boundary.

However if it was really a highway, then neither we nor the geezer the other side would be able to have our 6ft fences, would we?

And his house butts straight onto the pavement - so it's Nil meters from the back of the pavement!

What's the law about barbed wire entanglements plus a minefield down the side of a footpath?  cos that's my current plan, how else to stop them demolishing the fence?


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## novorapidboi26 (Nov 14, 2011)

A highway is a road and associated footpaths................if its just a footpath then theres no need for planning....


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## Monica (Nov 14, 2011)

No public land involved at all


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## Monica (Nov 14, 2011)

The green bit is our garden. The white box to the left at the top is a concrete shed they built with the garage remnants. The white box to the left is their new garage. The white box to the right is our garage and house.
The red dots are the fence posts.The patio is inbetween their 2 buildings.

I know it isn't very clear


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## AlisonM (Nov 14, 2011)

As I understand it some garages don't need planning permission. I think it's the wooden ones as they may not be regarded as 'permanent' because they're just big sheds. Anything more than that may need planning permission but you would need to check with your local council to find out what their rules are.

Monica, your best bet is to upload the pics to something like Photobucket and then create a link to them in here. As others have said the first thing is to look at the relevant section of your deeds which has a detailed plan of your boundaries. These will be essential if you plan to take the matter further (I really think you should). Keep a note of any costs involved to add to your claim if it goes legal, if they have encroached then they should be liable for the amount you are focred to spend on it.


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## novorapidboi26 (Nov 14, 2011)

Quite simply, they have came onto your land, which in theory will devalue your property if it was to be surveyed.........

you said they put up a string line when erecting the fence to mark the boundary, this is a logical idea, but it means both the fence and the posts need to be on their side of the line. However the position of the smooth side cant be negotiated, if its all on their land that is.........

But in your case it is not..........


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## Monica (Nov 14, 2011)

novorapidboi26 said:


> you said they put up a string line when erecting the fence to mark the boundary, this is a logical idea, but it means both the fence and the posts need to be on their side of the line. However the position of the smooth side cant be negotiated, if its all on their land that is.........
> 
> But in your case it is not..........



Exactly our point........
I don't care that we have the "ugly" side. I just don't want the posts on our property. But she reckons, because we have the "ugly" side, they are entitled to put them there. Otherwise we "gain" 2 inches.


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## Monica (Nov 14, 2011)

http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k546/MonicaWright68/005.jpg

I hope this works. On this you can see the remnants of the old post on the right and on the left the new post.


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## Robster65 (Nov 14, 2011)

So she thinks that the boundary is defined by the 'face' of the fence. 

The boundary is ALWAYS an imaginary line between the 2 properties.

The fence is merely a means of partitioning. If they want the fence there, they need to have the WHOLE fence, including posts, on their side, unless it's your fence, in which case it would be on your side. But as long as it's their fence, then she's completely wrong.

You do need the legal advice but stand firm in the meantime. Explain their attitude and abuse to the legal advisor too. There may be ways and means without you having to force them to do it. A threat of small claims court (which is very easy to do) might change their mind. Good luck.

Rob


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## novorapidboi26 (Nov 14, 2011)

Nice picture..............

The flush fence face needs to be on the boundary line...........and the rest behind it on their land......

It looks to me as if they just couldn't be bothered with the extra work of getting the posts in flush.....it will cost them more too, as they will need to fill the gap, with either slab/monoblock or a drain-able material like stone....

When you say she, are you referring to the neighbor...............?

So she says because 'you have got the ugly end, were taking 2 inch of your property'...............strange.........

I could understand if they took the ugly end and then asked you to sacrifice 2 inch as compensation...........[still not legal though].........

Under no circumstance do they have the right to build on your land........

I feel like I am repeating myself, SORRY!!


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## cherrypie (Nov 14, 2011)

Hi Monica,

Best to get it sorted because if you decide to move it may create a problem.
http://www.problemneighbours.co.uk/selling-house-with--problem-neighbours.html


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## Monica (Nov 14, 2011)

We are still waiting for the insurance solicitor to ring back.

Yes, "she" is the neighbour. Their attitude has always been the same. I build where I want......

All I asked is to put the posts flush and I went over there to ask nicely to come to the garden and discuss this, but no....

I'll keep you updated. At the moment there are only the 3 posts up, nothing else. I guess they might have been too scared to continue yesterday, who knows.


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## Ellie Jones (Nov 14, 2011)

Probably know that they are in the wrong, and you aren't standing for it at all...

If those posts are on your land you have the right to remove them, but it's going to be interesting to hear what your house insurers say about this..

I had fencing issue with my neighbour last year, has he was trying to enforce me to pay for damage to the fence the fence is his and he actually damaged it by digging out a patio...  And it was while he was in the process of under mining the fence panel and digging our part of my garden in the process but I have the last laugh though apart from not paying to repair the damage..

Well sadly a previous owner was a bit of a rouge landscaper who did actually do a nice job of building my rather solid patio stood on proper foundation, but at the same time they knocked down a brick shed leaving the concrete floor and took out a largish concrete carp pond and filter house, spread the rubble on across the lawn, then levelled it all of by using the earth or should I say mainly clay from the patio area and building a nice retaining wall...  Oh they did put a soak away at the edge of the patio by the boundary fence..

Problem is that the patio is now lower than the main garden..  So used to flood with around 4 inches of water when it rained..  The soak away wasted butch enough...

What my neighbour has actually done is removed my soak away, and his patio is 6 inches lower than mine, so my flooding problems have now been resolved and every time it rains I'm treated to a lovely waterfall of the edge of my patio into my neighbours garden where he gone from not having any flooding issues to having a major flooding issues twice has bad as I suffered

And just add insult to his injury, when I painted my side of the fence this year (I like to ensure fences are well maintained) I failed to used the diligence I would normally use when I'm painting a fence when the lapping is fencing into my neighbours garden...  With the full knowledge that the fence treatment would run through the gaps streaking his side a different colour, and how am I'm to know that the two pieces of metal hooking over the fence is a air dryer thingy that had cloths on...  which got fence treatment on them

Tis was funny hearing him curse away in his garden, never came over to have words with me though


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## Monica (Nov 14, 2011)

LOL, Ellie

Right, this is it: Solicitors will take it on if necessary.

1. get the deeds to see if their fence, shared fence, our fence. I'm pretty sure it's their fence. I can't remember what he said what to do next.

2. if it is our fence, go and tell them to take posts out and we will put our own fence up. Naturally, they can have the "ugly" side

oh dear, I've completely forgotten what else he said.


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## newbs (Nov 14, 2011)

I really feel for you with this one, having an ongoing dispute with a neighbour about parking, it is just so unpleasant and unnecessary grief that we could all do without.  Wish we all had lovely neighbours!  Hope the fence problem gets resolved without too much fuss for you!


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## ypauly (Nov 14, 2011)

My advice would be to tell them no until a proper survey is done so that the position is accurate for both parties. take legal advice to make sure it's written correctly.
 Tell them no in writing stating if they go ahead any posts or panels on your land will be removed. And be prepared to remove them if you have to.


It's very hard when you are dealing with aggressive idiots but the courts can be very costly and a neighbour dispute will have an impact when you sell up.


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## Robster65 (Nov 14, 2011)

ypauly said:


> It's very hard when you are dealing with aggressive idiots but the courts can be very costly and a neighbour dispute will have an impact when you sell up.


 
A very important point. Good thinking. 

Better to say you had a disagreement over a fence rather than a court case. 

Rob


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## Monica (Nov 17, 2011)

Well, the solicitor told OH that we should write them a letter stating that we want the posts put back where they were, because that's where the boundary lies. (apparently we have a party boundary).
If they ignore this, we'll take it further, simply because the fence on the drive is looking a bit worse for wear. If they do the same there, we can't get the car into our drive and garage

We're not ever likely to move, as we can't afford it and our rooms are much bigger than the rooms of the new houses being built.


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## Andrew (Nov 18, 2011)

*If need be*

HI

I had a problem with a neighbor over a hedge (my hedge)  they employed a contactor who ripped out the fence running down the middle of the hedge,  I spoke to the neighbor who was unhelpful, then the police who came round and spoke to myself mentioning criminal damage, they then interviewed the neighbor, I got a visit from the neighbor who seemed upset at police involvement, but who there after had my fence re built before I involved anyone else.   I had pointed out that I would be after compensation and costs.
they never spoke to me again and moved after about 6 months. 

if someone hits you phone the police - it is assault.


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## Monica (Nov 19, 2011)

*Update*

Well, yesterday afternoon the "man of the house" decided to continue on the fence. I plucked up the courage (heart racing like the clappers), went out there and told him to stop working on it until the dispute has been resolved. I tried to give him the letter, but of course he refused to take it.
The fence has now been put up - with a huge gap between the bottom of fence and our flower bed (their patio has been raised by about 3to4 inches)

"woman of the house" came round yesterday when OH was back from work and threatened that they'd do the front fence next week and put it in our drive, because that's apparently their land........

This is really stressing me out! But I have to ask myself - is it really worth getting the solicitors involved for 2 inches? But on the other hand, if I don't what next???

OH hasn't called the police, because he hasn't been hit. He hasn't been hit, because OH said to him, you hit me and I'll call the police.


(Any donations towards a house move greatly appreciated)


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## Robster65 (Nov 19, 2011)

Hi Monica.

It sounds like your neighbours are determined to make as many people as miserable as they are without a care in the world.

If it were me, I would use the necessary legal force against them to make them remove their fence and put it up where it should be, then to either prevent them fencing at the front, or ensure the fence is on their side and not causing an obstruction.

With a shared drive, or open, adjacent drives, there is often a covenant preventing obstruction to either party.

If you obtain a court order (lengthy but maybe necessary) forcing them to put things right, if they fail to do so, they will be in contempt of court and can then face criminal charges. At the moment, I think it is a civil case and would need you to go back to the solicitor.

Rob


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## Pumper_Sue (Nov 19, 2011)

Monica said:


> Well, yesterday afternoon the "man of the house" decided to continue on the fence. I plucked up the courage (heart racing like the clappers), went out there and told him to stop working on it until the dispute has been resolved. I tried to give him the letter, but of course he refused to take it.
> You need to take legal adivce as to how to deliver the letter.
> The fence has now been put up - with a huge gap between the bottom of fence and our flower bed (their patio has been raised by about 3to4 inches)
> If the post/fence are on your land then remove them. Do not cause any damage to their property ie the fence but you I think will be able to remove anything from your property that is not yours. If he has cemented the posts in then remove concrete as well and return to owner.
> ...



I think you need to ring the solicitor asp on Monday to get proccedings started.


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## MCH (Nov 19, 2011)

Monica said:


> "woman of the house" came round yesterday when OH was back from work and threatened that they'd do the front fence next week and put it in our drive, because that's apparently their land........



I assume they have a copy of their deeds that they could send to your solicitor with measurements to prove this statement?


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## Monica (Nov 19, 2011)

MCH said:


> I assume they have a copy of their deeds that they could send to your solicitor with measurements to prove this statement?



If they have any deeds with plan, then it will be the same as ours. The deeds are not very clear, the map certainly isn't.
On the deeds it says that the border is "party wall" or "party fence".

But according to the solicitor this seems to be irrelevant, because wherever the fence was put over 6 years ago, makes it the new border. They put up the old fences roughly about 14 years ago. So that makes it the new border.

Sue - I daren't take the fence down, because "what if we're wrong?"

I told him I'd send the letter "registered". If he then refuses to accept it, at least we then have proof we sent it. But OH thinks we shouldn't even bother with that anymore, just go straight to solicitors.


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## margie (Nov 19, 2011)

I would be careful about recording conversations. I seem to recall that if you are going to record a conversation the other person must be told. If you are going to talk to the solicitor again its worth asking.

I hope that you can get some respite from this, it must be so hard not knowing what is in store each day and there is no place to escape.

Good Luck


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## Robster65 (Nov 19, 2011)

As long as one of he parties involved knows it's being recorded, it's legal.

If neither party is aware then it isn't. As you're one of the parties involved, you can legally record it. But might be good to inform them afterwards that you've recorded it, in case he/she wants to add any threats into the conversation and you can get the police involved if you wish. They won't do anything but any damage that followed would have been pre-meditated.

I would be tempted to go straight to solicitor myself and keep it strictle business like. Removes opportunities for them to get personal. But it can take a long time and may cost some money unless you're covered by insurance.

Rob


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## MeanMom (Nov 21, 2011)

Only just spotted this for some reason Monica

What a lot of hastle! I'm really sorry you've had to deal with all this and hope it can still be sorted out without costing you more money and stress

Can't offer any practical advice I'm afraid - all our neighbours are council and we are not - so if there is any dispute we just pretty much have to do what the council says. We are a semi house but we also have a semi shed which has a leaky roof but (of course) it is our side so we must pay if we want council to fix it. We had to replace a fence panel made unstable by our ( other) neighbour removing their shed. And we were given 30 days (or something) to do it! 

Never ever buy an ex council semi if the other half still council. 

It's a shame you can't choose your neighbours - hope you get this sorted soon 

Xxx


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## Monica (Nov 22, 2011)

I've made another call to the house insurance legal help. 

The old fence has been there for more than 10 years, that makes it the border. We have 6 years to make a complaint.

I have to post my letter, make sure I have proof of posting. I have to give them an ultimatum. He said 28 days. Unfortunately this will take it to Christmas, so I thought I'd give them till end of Jan 2012. And I added that if not done we'll contact solicitor for further action and the same goes for front fence.

Now the fence is up, I can see why they thought it was right for them to move the posts. They made sure that the fence panels are on the border, which is where the old fence panels were. The difference is that the old panels were between the posts. The new ones are attached to the posts on one side.


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## novorapidboi26 (Nov 22, 2011)

So the posts are still on your side..................









Remembering that the side of the posts is irrelevant, its simply a case of borders...............


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## Monica (Nov 22, 2011)

thanks for that picture.
It's not quite like that. remember it's a party boundary, which means the posts go ON the boundary.

The old fence had the posts ON the boundary, but the panels were inbetween the fence posts.

The new fence is exactly as you show it on the right.


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## Monica (Nov 22, 2011)

http://s1115.photobucket.com/albums/k546/MonicaWright68/

have a look at the old fence, I haven't taken any of the new one

I just had another look, I think the post by the shed is just about touching the patio, not sure. That's the only one almost in the right place. But the others are definitely wrong. And now we have 2 inches of screw sticking out of the posts too. Am going to take some photos now.


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## novorapidboi26 (Nov 22, 2011)

Fence/wall construction comes in many forms...............

What is the relevance of the party boundary...............?

Does it mean that some of the supporting structure [the posts] can be in your garden...................

Cant see your images, at work, and most image hosting sites are blocked.........


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## Monica (Nov 22, 2011)

novorapidboi26 said:


> Fence/wall construction comes in many forms...............
> 
> What is the relevance of the party boundary...............?
> 
> ...



Yes, that's the relevance- half of the post should/could be in our garden, but as it stands the whole post is in our garden.

Oh I don't know.........


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## Robster65 (Nov 22, 2011)

If you can be certain where the boundary is, ie. is it defined by that corner brickwork, or does is step in by a brick or so ?

Then the posts can be, at best, along the same line as they were. 

Go with your solicitor's advice. I'm assuming they won't have the wherewithall to challenge your demands legally.

Rob


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## Monica (Nov 22, 2011)

Their shed is slap bang on the boundary line. Our garage wall is not on the boundary line, but they say it is. Their garage wall is on the boundary line. So if they took a string and attached it to the side of their garage wall and took it to the shed wall, the boundary would exactly show that the old posts were in the correct place.

I doubt they do, unless they have legal insurance like us........ She did dare us to go to solicitors.


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## AlisonM (Nov 22, 2011)

Monica said:


> I doubt they do, unless they have legal insurance like us........ She did dare us to go to solicitors.



Do it! You're within your rights and a solictor's letter might give them pause, make them take you seriously. Your relationship with them isn't likely to improve and could get worse if they think you can be bullied.


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## novorapidboi26 (Nov 22, 2011)

Monica said:


> Yes, that's the relevance- half of the post should/could be in our garden, but as it stands the whole post is in our garden.
> 
> Oh I don't know.........



I understand now, with the fence panels running between the posts, half way.............

That type of construction is the only exception  I can think of which would give both parties the best use of space, however would still need to be agreed.....

Now that has changed though, a totally different set up...........you got their posts.............

Can you not ask them why they didn't build the fence the exact same way............you probably get your head bitten off though...........

Yap......yap...........yap.......


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## Monica (Nov 22, 2011)

I'm not talking to them
It's got so bad that I even try to avoid being out front at the same time, as I hate confrontations. Yesterday, just as I was going to open the garage door I heard their car approach. I waited until the front door closed


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## novorapidboi26 (Nov 22, 2011)

Its unfortunate its came to that.................

What was it like before the fence.................?

Seen this quoted on Garden Law website...............


If you are using Larch Lap fencing, where the panels sit between the posts, then make sure that the entire post is on your side of the boundary and that the top strip overlaps the lower strip on the fact which point towards your neighbours.

Ultimately, its clear you will not be able to go out and prove them wrong just by conversing with them............this would be my preferred choice, as its more satisfying........so just need to go through the motions for now..........


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## Monica (Nov 22, 2011)

Before the fence we had our garages next to each other and a fence down the middle to separate the drives. They also had a roof in front(above) their garage which also covered the side entrance.
Then about 14 years ago they built their extension on their drive, with the brick wall on the borderline. They put the fence up where there was a gap between the end of their extension and their shed, which they put together using parts of their old garage. We then were able to build our garage (single storey) extension using their wall, as they'd put it slap bang on the borderline. (we did complain about that fact too.)


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## novorapidboi26 (Nov 22, 2011)

So do you and your neighbor share a supporting wall, or was your extension just built against their wall..........not structurally connected.........?

That might come back and bite someones bum.....................maybe, as you both must of received planning to build on that scale..........

So as you say, a string line from shed to extension should clearly mark the boundary.............and you say their fence is on your side of that imaginary line.........

Could they set this string up for you...................?


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## Monica (Nov 22, 2011)

novorapidboi26 said:


> So do you and your neighbor share a supporting wall, or was your extension just built against their wall..........not structurally connected.........?
> 
> That might come back and bite someones bum.....................maybe, as you both must of received planning to build on that scale..........
> 
> ...



We both had planning permission. We built our garage 3 years later. Our garage extension consists of front and back and a little bit of side (because our house is set a little further back). They agreed we could use their wall, because they built on the line. Not structurally connected - our bricks are not intertwined with theirs, if that's what you mean.

They had "set this string up" when they put the posts in, hence our complaint. The string went on their side of the post...... (just like on your picture) On top of it all they put a nail/screw into our garage wall (the bit we built)which is on our land, not theirs or boundary. Shame I didn't take any photos of that!

I really appreciate your help shouldn't you be working????


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## Catwoman76 (Nov 22, 2011)

Monica said:


> We both had planning permission. We built our garage 3 years later. Our garage extension consists of front and back and a little bit of side (because our house is set a little further back). They agreed we could use their wall, because they built on the line. Not structurally connected - our bricks are not intertwined with theirs, if that's what you mean.
> 
> They had "set this string up" when they put the posts in, hence our complaint. The string went on their side of the post...... (just like on your picture) On top of it all they put a nail/screw into our garage wall (the bit we built)which is on our land, not theirs or boundary. Shame I didn't take any photos of that!
> 
> I really appreciate your help shouldn't you be working????



OMG Monica, I really feel for you still. Good luck and best wishes  Sheena XX


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## novorapidboi26 (Nov 22, 2011)

Monica said:


> I really appreciate your help shouldn't you be working????




I dont really think I am helping as such, just trying to picture the whole scenario, to establish whether it is clearly obvious they are in the wrong, and it seems as though they are obviously in the wrong..................which means you can sleep comfortably at night knowing they will have to adjust the fence position.........................a little more work,but worth it for both properties.........

its clear they have misunderstood the boundary, and that, although their wish to have the nice side of the fence on view from their side is acceptable and legal, the whole structure must reside within their side..............this boundary to me has been strongly confirmed by them already through the construction of their extension and shed..................


And yes, I am/should be working..................

I am in one of those positions were I am free to do as I please..........whilst working hard at the same time...........


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## Monica (Nov 22, 2011)

novorapidboi26 said:


> I dont really think I am helping as such, just trying to picture the whole scenario, to establish whether it is clearly obvious they are in the wrong, QUOTE]
> 
> Actually, you trying to picture it all, is helping me. It means I'm "talking" it through and am getting replies to my worries, instead of me sitting here stewing over it. I think I'll have to start paying you soon........


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## novorapidboi26 (Nov 22, 2011)

Monica said:


> novorapidboi26 said:
> 
> 
> > I dont really think I am helping as such, just trying to picture the whole scenario, to establish whether it is clearly obvious they are in the wrong, QUOTE]
> ...


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## Monica (Nov 22, 2011)

I have taken some new pictures, but at a slightly different angle to the old ones and looking at the old ones, I'm not so sure anymore..... I'll have to take some more photos tomorrow at the same angles as the old ones.

http://s1115.photobucket.com/albums/k546/MonicaWright68/

(I know you can't look at them until you get home)


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## novorapidboi26 (Nov 22, 2011)

Look forward to seeing them...........


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## trophywench (Nov 22, 2011)

Monica - do you want to obliterate your address?  Anybody or his dog could access the pics from her?


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## Monica (Nov 22, 2011)

you're right, it's on the bin isn't it. I'll do that now.

those are the only photos I've got on there.


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## Ellie Jones (Nov 22, 2011)

Monica

I think that you have little option but to take legal actions if they won't remove the fence as those bolts say it all really, he doesn't care a monkey's about anybody else, and I think you rather take legal action over removing the fence rather going through a sue suite against him, when somebody severely  injures themselves on one of those fencing bolts as the may well stick out 2+ inches from the post, but that 6 inches or more into your garden with the posts  Accident waiting to happen.

I showed Les the photo's his first comment was they be gone by the weekend, as he would get a grinder on the bottom of the posts, if it's on our land we got the right to remove them!

I would offer to send up Ellie for some moral support, you wouldn't have to tell them she's all gob and no action..   As anybody gets near my fence or comes into the backgarden uninvited she goes off on one like a machine gun to make her presence felt..  Little do they know that they could just walk on by and she do no more than gob at them  Mind you if somebody tried to to hit either of us, I wouldn't be responsible for her actions..


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## Northerner (Nov 22, 2011)

Monica said:


> you're right, it's on the bin isn't it. I'll do that now.
> 
> those are the only photos I've got on there.



Hi Monica, since you have your photos on Photobucket it's easy to add the ones you want into a post here instead of posting the link to the whole album. When you have the album open and all the thumbnails of the pictures showing, move your mouse over the one you want to copy. A list will appear, and the bottom one, IMG, has some code next to it. Click on this and it will copy it to your clipboard. You can then open a post here and paste it into the post (I use CTRL V). Voila! You can make sure it works by selecting 'Preview' Post before selecting 'Submit Reply'


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## trophywench (Nov 22, 2011)

Funnily enough, Les has already said much the same as I suddenly thought whilst I was eating my tea - which was - you know if a neighbour plants a triffid and the branches come over your fence, you can chop em off, but they aren't yours, so you have to give them back.

So why can you not remove the part of the fence, which has overgrown your garden?

If you accept that your side of the wall of the building at the end of the fence is on the boundary line, affix a piece of string on the very corner, and run it at above fence-height, to the mid point on the back wall of the two houses.

Anything your side, chop off (you may need to hire a chain saw LOL) and chuck it back over .........................

Best to start with the concrete bases of all the posts, strictly on your side only .............  possibly after that, the fence may fall down.  Make sure it all falls on their side though, wouldn't want them to accuse you of stealing!


Need an Evil Grin smiley - but anyway


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## Robster65 (Nov 22, 2011)

I think, legally, you can do that but would not be able to damage his fence.

SO you'd need to dig up the concrete foundations and return it all to his side undamaged.

And then erect your own fence very quickly blocking your side so that they'd have to damage it to re-erect theirs. Thereby causing criminal damage and you could then get serious.

If you are able to chop the bits off just on your side, then go for it. It'd be quicker and more satisfying and he wouldn't know until his panels fell over in the first high wind ! 

Rob


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## Ellie Jones (Nov 22, 2011)

Another little thought just come into my mind...

Monica know that nice little stream that you always wanted you know the one that started from the little Spring from your back door that skirts down by the fence past the the shed curving into the shrunken  Carp pond at the bottom of the garden

Just happens that you have to dig out the channel for the stream right past the new fence post and has you are going to run the pump cable and specialist mood lighting for the carp pond and you've also got to root a return pipe for the water to come back to the spring by your back door..  You've got to dig an extra deep trench along the fence

Not your thought that your cretin of a neighbour put his fence post in the way, and you've just happen to undermine the concrete lump and the wind blow the fence post etc down, so you decided to be helpful and put the fence in his garden for him, but then realised that your said that you would look after your friends German Shepherds (can be supplied upon request) so had to put a fence back up quick


We'll a bit of a evil lot at times..


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## margie (Nov 22, 2011)

I am sorry that things are not resolved yet. I hate confrontation and am much better at standing up for someone else rather than myself.  I would suggest talking again to either the solicitor or CAB. The neighbours are not likely going anywhere and I hope that there is a way that you can resolve things without the whole thing escalating.

Good luck


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## Monica (Nov 23, 2011)

LOL trophy, Rob and Ellie, you're soooo evil

Trouble is I'm just like margie, I can't confront anyone because I get too emotional, my heart starts racing, the tears come and my throat closes up. And that's not a good way to stand up for yourself, is it!!! I started the complaint on Saturday, but as soon as all the shouting started I retreated like a chicken and left OH to it. I'm sooooo embarrassed and feel really guilty about that.







Northey, just like that! Thanks, it's a bit big though, sorry.


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## Robster65 (Nov 23, 2011)

Perfectly done Monica !

That photo shows exactly how far over the boundary they've come. It must be 5 or 6", so if you multiply that by the length of the garden and work out the rate per square foot and you'll be able to charge them for rent in the meantime 

You could do with that same angle but with a ruler laid down to show the exact distance. I can see the magistrate now in the small clams court (which is normally a room with a table everyone sits round) staring at that photo and asking them why they encroached on your side and refused to move the fence back. It's a very satisfying moment when someone with ultimate power tells them to do it and what will happen if they don't.

But I'm sure a solicitor's letter will be enough to scare them.

Rob


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## trophywench (Nov 23, 2011)

Makes me realise more and more how lucky I've been and still am with neighbours.  Our next door has a fence up between him and us, it's concrete postshalf on his and half on ours, and the fence panels slot down the middle of the posts.  OK so we get the back of the panels, but how much nicer it is than having the entire back of a fence.


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## Ellie Jones (Nov 23, 2011)

Just rechecked your photo's..

Several questions..

What size is the new concrete posts?

As they are a lot larger than the old ones, and I'm assuming the old ones were the standard 4x4 fence post!

I noticed that the concrete post next to your back door, is in fact going through your path!  Did he do this before or after you contacted the solicitor?

As looking at the photo's it seems that you might be able to get a criminal damage charge against him?  And it would be worth actually popping into the police station with your photo's (and any that you have of the old fence in situ and the path next to your back door if you got any) to discuss it with them..  

I would also mention the verbal threats of physical violence, and that you had stopped them proceeding with the installation and contacted your solicitor concerning the matter..  But last weekend he decided without any permission from you entered your land, and finished off erecting the fence..  In the process of doing this (if he threatened you or your husband need to tell them)  he without your permission broke through your garden path to erect the fence post..  And also the fence is dangerous due to bolts protruding several inches from each post where he's secured the featherboard fixing rail!  And you have children and visiting children (the younger the better) so compromises their safety if they go into the garden.

Hopefully the police will see it, as a case of criminal damage, trespass and a very long shot endangering lives!  And it all warrants their attention and a criminal charge so toddle off to arrest him!  

Which would if this happened, give you a real bargaining power, he removes the fence, erects a new fence that is suitable, a standard wooden lap fence panels and repairs the damage to your path etc...  

And then you will drop the Criminal damage charges against him!


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## Monica (Nov 23, 2011)

trophywench said:


> Makes me realise more and more how lucky I've been and still am with neighbours.  Our next door has a fence up between him and us, it's concrete postshalf on his and half on ours, and the fence panels slot down the middle of the posts.  OK so we get the back of the panels, but how much nicer it is than having the entire back of a fence.



You know what??? Had they bought that kind of fence, they would have put the posts in the correct place. But because the panels and the wooden support are deeper, they thought they'd need to move the posts, otherwise they lose land


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## Monica (Nov 23, 2011)

Ellie Jones said:


> Just rechecked your photo's..
> 
> Several questions..
> 
> ...



Oh yes, the posts are at least twice as big, I haven't measured them properly though. And yes I believe the old ones were 4x4 (inches?).

They put the post by the garage up AFTER  we complained on Saturday. We complained to them after they'd put up the middle post only. So even AFTER our "arguments" they simply continued. They then finished the fence off last Friday AFTER  I went out there and told him not to.


OH doesn't think the police would be very interested..... but he said that if they fulfill their threat and move the front fence, he'll call them.

Oh and btw, thanks for offering your german shepherd to me. She would make mincemeat out of their "overgrown ant". Unfortunately, I'm very scared of german shepherds, as I got bitten by one when I was 4.


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## Ellie Jones (Nov 23, 2011)

Aww sorry to hear of your experience as they are really a fantastic dog. 

My neighbour across the road made my jaw drop, I was going past when she came out to speak to me (first time we spoke) I knew she had problems with agoraphobia, so at first I thought her slight agitation was due to that as she was fussing Ellie..  

She then explained that she hadn't stroke a dog for 50 years since she was 8 years old and was like you bitten, and ever since then she had a fear of dogs, but for some unknown reason Ellie made her feel safe.  To say that my jaw dropped would be an understatement 

But alas they are a dog, that many people ruin a good shepherd by incorrect handling of them, you cann't handle them like most dogs, you've got to be firm but fair with them and be in a partnership with them rather than trying to rule them, give them an inch they will take a mile...


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