# Shocked...



## Copepod (Jun 24, 2016)

Woke up at 05:30, switched on radio, shocked and sickened by referendum result.

Nothing for it, brewed tea, ate eccles cake (sometimes have odd things for breakfast, if they're reduced price) and browsed websites. My cat and I are considering moving to Scotland, Ireland or somewhere we can use our existing languages or learn a new language. Harvest mouse will stay in England as she's part of captive breeding programme.


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## Bloden (Jun 24, 2016)

Copepod said:


> Woke up at 05:30, switched on radio, shocked and sickened by referendum result.
> 
> Nothing for it, brewed tea, ate eccles cake (sometimes have odd things for breakfast, if they're reduced price) and browsed websites. My cat and I are considering moving to Scotland, Ireland or somewhere we can use our existing languages or learn a new language. Harvest mouse will stay in England as she's part of captive breeding programme.


Yeah...shocked is the word. I'm no longer European. One of my favourite things about living abroad is speaking a different language day in, day out. So, I've added to my summer bucket list 'start learning Welsh' (again!). At least I can be bilingual in my own country. Best get the dogs some rabies jabs...sigh.


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## eggyg (Jun 24, 2016)

I'm gutted too! I liked that we were Europeans, more exotic sounding. Plus I don't like change and uncertainty. I know it's not going to happen overnight so we can be Europeans for another couple of years at least!


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## Northerner (Jun 24, 2016)

Words fail me  No, let me rephrase that, Cameron has failed the country for no good reason. As said this morning by one commentator, he has broken up not one, but two unions. None of the issues raised by the Leave campaign will be resolved for many years, if ever - but of course they never promised anything, just made vague noises to stir up peoples emotions and scapegoat migrants. A completely backward move for the country.


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## Mrs Mad Ronin (Jun 24, 2016)

I knew the results would be close, but i thought Remain would get it. I am shocked and terrified if i am being honest. NHS, Disability right, Equality rights... it's going to be a disaster. This country is even more divided than ever before. The hatred & racism this is going to cause is unthinkable. It's downhill from now on. We are literally at war with our fellow Brits. The leave folks have believed in Boris and Farage, believed the lies and incited hate and fear. I can't trust those in charge of us to make the right decisions/laws for us and i know for a fact that they are NOT going to be listening to us and doing what we want. Those were the lies that won it for them because people believed them. Oh how sad this is


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## Robin (Jun 24, 2016)

It's a pity the result was so close, I'd rather it had been clear cut either way. ThE close result is bound to lead to a lot of anger. Dont forget though, that we had equality legislation before we joined the EU. Just because we don't get our laws from Europe doesn't mean we won't have any at all.


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## Barb (Jun 24, 2016)

Intolerance and exclusion have won over tolerance and inclusion. A very sad day.


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## Northerner (Jun 24, 2016)

Barb said:


> Intolerance and exclusion have won over tolerance and inclusion. A very sad day.


I see it more as deception than intolerance. None of the issues raised will be resolved, despite the implied promises


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## Flower (Jun 24, 2016)

I am saddened and scared by the result. At what cost a Conservative majority.


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## Mrs Mad Ronin (Jun 24, 2016)

Whether we like the result or not, the future is we are leaving the EU. Therefore we need to unite as a Country, not allow hatred & racism to divide us even more than it has already and work together to make our Country strong and work. It's going to be a very rocking time and i feel it's going to get nastier by the day but i hope we can come together, we certainly need to


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## Barb (Jun 24, 2016)

Northerner said:


> I see it more as deception than intolerance. None of the issues raised will be resolved, despite the implied promises


Very true. A lot of people have been sold a fake Rolex (no ambition to have a real one).


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## Lilylou (Jun 24, 2016)

Mrs Mad Ronin said:


> I knew the results would be close, but i thought Remain would get it. I am shocked and terrified if i am being honest. NHS, Disability right, Equality rights... it's going to be a disaster. This country is even more divided than ever before. The hatred & racism this is going to cause is unthinkable. It's downhill from now on. We are literally at war with our fellow Brits. The leave folks have believed in Boris and Farage, believed the lies and incited hate and fear. I can't trust those in charge of us to make the right decisions/laws for us and i know for a fact that they are NOT going to be listening to us and doing what we want. Those were the lies that won it for them because people believed them. Oh how sad this is


Rubbish! Scaremongering at its best! Europe has done nothing for this country, except cost us a small fortune! I'm British/English and proud of it. Why can't we all pull together now instead of pulling in opposite directions! Politicians do that in spades with their lies and back-biting, they don't need Joe/Josephine Public to join in! I will make no more comment on this subject. What's done is done and we must do our best to support our beautiful Country in its independent poition - eventually! Far more important is that I need to concentrate on getting my diabetes under control! Keep smiling and carry on!!


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## Redkite (Jun 24, 2016)

Lilylou said:


> Rubbish! Scaremongering at its best! Europe has done nothing for this country, except cost us a small fortune! I'm British/English and proud of it. Why can't we all pull together now instead of pulling in opposite directions! Politicians do that in spades with their lies and back-biting, they don't need Joe/Josephine Public to join in! I will make no more comment on this subject. What's done is done and we must do our best to support our beautiful Country in its independent poition - eventually! Far more important is that I need to concentrate on getting my diabetes under control! Keep smiling and carry on!!



"Scaremongering" was a Brexit lie.  The economic predictions have come alarmingly true, and I for one am really scared.  I am also disgusted and ashamed that so many people voted out of base xenophobia.  The repercussions from this will last generations.  Calling this referendum was a monumental act of folly.


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## trophywench (Jun 24, 2016)

Don't be daft - 'the economic predictions have come true' - they haven't had time to do that, or prove false either, to be fair - yet.

If you invest some money - anywhere - a penny or a pound - do you expect to see returns on it before even 24 hours have passed?  (excluding the special arrangements companies and Council have with the banks for overnight deposits)


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## HOBIE (Jun 24, 2016)

What happened when we kept the £.  The day after the £ went UP in value


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## Bloden (Jun 24, 2016)

HOBIE said:


> What happened when we kept the £.  The day after the £ went UP in value


It's gone down today...


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## zuludog (Jun 24, 2016)

YES! An excellent result!

The EEC was sold to us as a trading agreement between half a dozen or so countries. I object most strongly to the monster that it has become
I don't mind trading with other countries but I object to being governed by them, and paying a small fortune for the privilege


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## Diabeticliberty (Jun 24, 2016)

zuludog said:


> YES! An excellent result!
> 
> The EEC was sold to us as a trading agreement between half a dozen or so countries. I object most strongly to the monster that it has become
> I don't mind trading with other countries but I object to being governed by them, and paying a small fortune for the privilege




Yes it's great news. I have been waiting with bated breath to see which bits of the NHS are going to benefit from the 350 million pounds per week that Herr Farage and his UKIP Gestapo promised us would be spent as soon as we voted out. I don't suppose you can help me here can you because following a hastily cobbled together extra pack of lies whoops sorry press conference that Herr Farage conducted this morning it's all gone kinda quiet? I hope the little darling hasn't been lying to us all. Not when we all soooooooooo believed in him.


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## khskel (Jun 24, 2016)

I still consider myself a Euoropean and will continue to inflict my imperfect and at times laughable language skills on my friends on the mainland


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## Diabeticliberty (Jun 24, 2016)

khskel said:


> I still consider myself a Euoropean and will continue to inflict my imperfect and at times laughable language skills on my friends on the mainland




You tell 'em baby


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## Martin Canty (Jun 24, 2016)

Diabeticliberty said:


> which bits of the NHS are going to benefit from the 350 million pounds



http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/nigel-farage-admits-his-bold-brexit-claim-was-mistake

IMHO none of them are coming up smelling of roses!!!!


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## khskel (Jun 24, 2016)

Martin Canty said:


> http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/nigel-farage-admits-his-bold-brexit-claim-was-mistake
> 
> IMHO none of them are coming up smelling of roses!!!!


Politicians smelling of roses are a rare commodity


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## palmoff (Jun 24, 2016)

Yep I was shocked that leave won, after the pro remain blanket media coverage, and the famous people on side of remain.
They even invoked the ten foot git wizard bob gandolf.
The bbc were very biased imho.
I voted leave because more of the same ole' un-elected french and german presidential duffers sitting in Brussels telling us what we can and cant do whilst we can do nothing to remove them, we cant even vote for them, this seems very undemocratic to me.

Ok so things are going to  change that is if Cameron's successor invokes article 50, something Cameron promised to do himself  if leave won.


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## Ralph-YK (Jun 24, 2016)

For the last 34 years I have been voting out every single government. Except it didn't really work.


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## Cowboy Bob (Jun 25, 2016)

Although not all leavers voted that way because of "the immigration problem", quite a lot did (especially Farage's lot) and those people are going to be somewhat shocked to realise that when we leave and we need a trade agreement so our economy doesn't go completely south, that that agreement comes with the proviso that free movement of labour must remain in place - as is the case with other non-EU European countries and their trade agreements. The proverbial Polish plumber is going nowhere. On top of that, the French will close their immigration camps in Calais as the agreement to stop immigration on the French side will no longer be in place, so that enormous immigration camp in Calais will suddenly be in Dover and we'll have to deal with it here.

The immediate problem is going to be farming though. Cornwall will go bankrupt and most farmers are going to have to raise their prices significantly when the subsidies from the Common Agricultural Policy disappear. I was reading that the net result of this could be up to a £20 rise in the average weekly family food bill. For a lot of people, that's going to be devastating


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## Andy HB (Jun 25, 2016)

Cowboy Bob said:


> The immediate problem is going to be farming though. Cornwall will go bankrupt and most farmers are going to have to raise their prices significantly when the subsidies from the Common Agricultural Policy disappear. I was reading that the net result of this could be up to a £20 rise in the average weekly family food bill. For a lot of people, that's going to be devastating



Not sure you will be correct. Initially, there will be no change until we leave.

Then, don't you think we'll support our farmers with some of the funds that we will no longer be sending to the EU? After all, we are a net contributer to the EU. Where do you think the CAP subsidies come from? It is effectively us!

I will wait and see how we as a nation deal with things before casting judgement on all the scare stories going about at the moment.

I remember the doom and gloom surrounding us when we were dumped out of the ERM. That ended up being quite a good thing for our economy (apart from the terrible waste if money trying to prop up the pound). I hope that this is a similar situation. Time will tell, but it also depends on everyone pulling together rather than hysterically screaming from the rooftops!


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## Pumper_Sue (Jun 25, 2016)

OK dumb question I know................. So if it doesn't work why can't the UK apply to re-join the EU? Problem solved surely?


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## Redkite (Jun 25, 2016)

Pumper_Sue said:


> OK dumb question I know................. So if it doesn't work why can't the UK apply to re-join the EU? Problem solved surely?



Sadly it's a one-way street, Sue.  If we ever wanted to rejoin in the future we'd have to join on the terms of all other new joiners, including adopting the euro.  We've got a special status in the EU, including Maggie Thatcher's rebate, and we wouldn't be able to have that.


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## Redkite (Jun 25, 2016)

Andy HB said:


> Not sure you will be correct. Initially, there will be no change until we leave.
> 
> Then, don't you think we'll support our farmers with some of the funds that we will no longer be sending to the EU? After all, we are a net contributer to the EU. Where do you think the CAP subsidies come from? It is effectively us!
> 
> ...



The net contribution we pay to the EU in a year was all spent yesterday morning when the Bank of England had to intervene and prop up the pound.  This isn't a scare story.  And people aren't being hysterical - half the country didn't want this outcome, and I for one feel bereaved and in despair for the future.  We're not the UK, we're the Divided Kingdom.


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## Matt Cycle (Jun 25, 2016)

Divided Kingdom indeed.  Interesting graphic from the BBC here - gives some indication of why it went the way it did.  I think we will live to regret the decision made for a long, long time.


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## zuludog (Jun 25, 2016)

The past few days have shown us a couple of things - 

The dual standards of the metropolitan liberal left. They preach democracy, tolerance, and freedom of speech, but only as long as it suits them. When there is something that they don't like, such as our referendum result or the rise in popularity of Donald Trump, they moan like hell.

The biased, or at least the selective reporting of our two main news channels, BBC & Sky. It now appears that several other countries within the EU have their own independence or Eurosceptic parties, and some of them are estimated to have more support than Britain's. Yet we heard hardly a peep about this over the past few months, and even now the coverage is reluctant and minimal


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## Andy HB (Jun 25, 2016)

Redkite said:


> The net contribution we pay to the EU in a year was all spent yesterday morning when the Bank of England had to intervene and prop up the pound.  This isn't a scare story.  And people aren't being hysterical - half the country didn't want this outcome, and I for one feel bereaved and in despair for the future.  We're not the UK, we're the Divided Kingdom.


The BOE did not prop up the pound yesterday! The governor of the bank of England said that the funds to do so were available.

I'm sorry, but you are being inaccurate.

17 million people wanted to leave. That was a majority. That is democracy. It has always been like this. The difference now is that some on the opposite side now seem to want to cry foul all the time rather than rolling up their sleeves and getting on with it.


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## Andy HB (Jun 25, 2016)

I


zuludog said:


> The past few days have shown us a couple of things -
> 
> The dual standards of the metropolitan liberal left. They preach democracy, tolerance, and freedom of speech, but only as long as it suits them. When there is something that they don't like, such as our referendum result or the rise in popularity of Donald Trump, they moan like hell.
> 
> The biased, or at least the selective reporting of our two main news channels, BBC & Sky. It now appears that several other countries within the EU have their own independence or Eurosceptic parties, and some of them are estimated to have more support than Britain's. Yet we heard hardly a peep about this over the past few months, and even now the coverage is reluctant and minimal


I, for one, do not want to be associated with the eurosceptic parties on the continent!

By the way, in case anyone misunderstands where I am coming from, I voted remain and am concerned about the future. I have concerns that our politicians are not currently up to the job.

But I am not pessimistic, I think that the young people in this country have been given a gift that I didn't have. They have the chance to affect more directly the course of our Nation.


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## Redkite (Jun 25, 2016)

Andy HB said:


> The BOE did not prop up the pound yesterday! The governor of the bank of England said that the funds to do so were available.
> 
> I'm sorry, but you are being inaccurate.
> 
> 17 million people wanted to leave. That was a majority. That is democracy. It has always been like this. The difference now is that some on the opposite side now seem to want to cry foul all the time rather than rolling up their sleeves and getting on with it.



Andy, the BoE did have to intervene yesterday, and also said they had the funds to keep doing so (for the time being).

I agree we have had a democratic vote and a (tiny) majority decided to leave. So be it!  However, the 52/48 split was not evenly distributed across the country, which means that where some areas have people dancing around in jubilation, others areas are deeply unhappy.  Regionally, this has been undemocratic, hence Scotland will be having another referendum so that they can follow their wish to remain in the UK.  I am interested in the moves for London to do the same, and separate itself from the so-called UK as a city state - the argument for this is strong because London has a bigger population and a bigger economy than Scotland, and had an even stronger remain vote.  I don't live in London myself, but would gladly move back there if they could achieve a status that kept them outward looking.  Let the rest of little england be isolationist if that's what the people think they want!


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## palmoff (Jun 25, 2016)

The eu is full of neoliberals its no accident that the remain camp were funded  mostly by major corporations and that most celebrities were in camp remain.
It would be in the best interests for them to remain, The city of London and its boroughs voted remain because that's one of the financial capitals of the world, scotland voted to stay because scots vote anti-english, as do irish.
I also don't doubt the EU parliament will try some sort of retribution for us daring to be democratic


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## trophywench (Jun 25, 2016)

palmoff said:


> I also don't doubt the EU parliament will try some sort of retribution for us daring to be democratic



And such companies as Audi and BMW are going to be happy about that, are they?

It has two chances , the EU - it will either reform, or it will implode.  The anti-EU feeling is most certainly not confined to Britain.  The Netherlanders  want a poll, so do the Italians, and one helluva lot of the French - not sure about other places.  But eg Poland won't, they actually get more back than they contribute so they know which side their breads buttered on, but would they actually convert that to retribution?  Do you REALLY think they would, bearing in mind the numbers of Poles gainfully employed in the UK?


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## palmoff (Jun 25, 2016)

All you have to do is look at Greece and southern Ireland to see how nasty the EU can be.


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## Redkite (Jun 26, 2016)

palmoff said:


> All you have to do is look at Greece and southern Ireland to see how nasty the EU can be.



Another ignoramus .  There is no such country as "southern Ireland".  If you're referring to the Republic of Ireland, it has benefitted enormously from EU investment, and its citizens overwhelmingly support being members of the EU.  Greece signed up to join the euro knowing they would have to reform the way they run their economy; they failed to abide by what they had agreed, got themselves into a financial mess, and the other eurozone countries bailed them out.  The EU wasn't in any way "nasty" to either of these countries.  Try getting your facts from a more reliable source than the Daily Express


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## Cowboy Bob (Jun 26, 2016)

palmoff said:


> The eu is full of neoliberals



WTF is a neoliberal?


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## trophywench (Jun 26, 2016)

Perhaps it's a new one?  After all, the old Liberals - eg Jeremy Thorpe - must all be dead by now?


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## palmoff (Jun 26, 2016)

Cowboy bob..  Neoliberalism.
Redkite. Calling someone an ignoramus is ignorant please don't.
I call  the  republic of Ireland- Southern Island both of which are valid its down to personal preference. You can also call it eire or just ireland.
Greece has suffered forced austerity, forced mass immigration, prime ministers effectively ousted from power.
multiple referendums on the same subject under threat..
Southern island were subjected to threats over amendments 24 and 26. Second referendums were held for each under threat of a bankrupt Ireland and each vote was overturned.
You see the pattern?
The EU doesn't like democracy


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## Redkite (Jun 26, 2016)

palmoff said:


> Cowboy bob..  Neoliberalism.
> Redkite. Calling someone an ignoramus is ignorant please don't.
> I call  the  republic of Ireland- Southern Island both of which are valid its down to personal preference. You can also call it eire or just ireland.
> Greece has suffered forced austerity, forced mass immigration, prime ministers effectively ousted from power.
> ...



Ignoramus was rude and I apologise.  However you are factually incorrect on every point here.


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## ypauly (Jun 26, 2016)

At least we don't have to worry about TTIP


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## Northerner (Jun 26, 2016)

ypauly said:


> At least we don't have to worry about TTIP


I mentioned this elsewhere also  Problem is, of course, that they can go far further now if they want  We can renationalise the railways though!


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## palmoff (Jun 26, 2016)

Redkite said:


> Ignoramus was rude and I apologise.  However you are factually incorrect on every point here.


It all depends on where you get your information how you interpret it and whether or not you hold a bias, nobody could even pretend to be totally factually correct on the EU as the media the politicians and everyone who feeds you and myself the information is also politically affiliated one way or another.

However when you have goldman sachs, jpmorgan, hsbc and morgan stanley all bankrolling the remain camp it shows you where positive media and political bias for remain came from and who is feeding you the BS now.


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## Bloden (Jun 26, 2016)

ypauly said:


> At least we don't have to worry about TTIP


What or who is TTIP?

I just hope they come up with something like a European Residency card to ease the way for Brits who wish to live and work abroad. Or perhaps it's time to allow dual nationality - a British passport and an EU country passport. Could the nhs / social services / education system / etc. cope if all 3 million (is that the correct figure?) ex-pats were forced to return home? Unfortunately, it's a "¿qué será?" situation for all of us, living at home or abroad, and it doesn't feel very nice!


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## Northerner (Jun 26, 2016)

Bloden said:


> What or who is TTIP?
> 
> I just hope they come up with something like a European Residency card to ease the way for Brits who wish to live and work abroad. Or perhaps it's time to allow dual nationality - a British passport and an EU country passport. Could the nhs / social services / education system / etc. cope if all 3 million (is that the correct figure?) ex-pats were forced to return home? Unfortunately, it's a "¿qué será?" situation for all of us, living at home or abroad, and it doesn't feel very nice!


TTIP is a trade deal between the EU and USA. The problems with it are (were!) that it gave corporations the power to sue governments in secret courts if they felt that competition was being undermined by government policy, so an organisation like the NHS could be seen as restricting competition by getting government support via taxation and other policies.

I think much will depend now on how things turn out regarding EU migration into the UK, and whether the terms enforced produce reciprocal policies in other EU countries i.e. if we treat those EU nationals who are domiciled here well, then hopefully the same will happen to ex pats. I think what we need to hope for now is an inclusive, forward-looking government who turn their backs on the dreadful scapegoating of the past few months (years, even).


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## Bloden (Jun 26, 2016)

Northerner said:


> TTIP is a trade deal between the EU and USA. The problems with it are (were!) that it gave corporations the power to sue governments in secret courts if they felt that competition was being undermined by government policy, so an organisation like the NHS could be seen as restricting competition by getting government support via taxation and other policies.
> 
> I think much will depend now on how things turn out regarding EU migration into the UK, and whether the terms enforced produce reciprocal policies in other EU countries i.e. if we treat those EU nationals who are domiciled here well, then hopefully the same will happen to ex pats. I think what we need to hope for now is an inclusive, forward-looking government who turn their backs on the dreadful scapegoating of the past few months (years, even).


Oh yeah, der, Obama's recent visit to Europe... 
Yep, it's a "do as you would be done by" situation as far as ex-pats and EU nationals are concerned. 
The main focus in Spain today is the (second) general election (in 6 months)! Will we have a govt some time soon?!!


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## Copepod (Jun 26, 2016)

It's not so much passports as residency that the issue. British passport holders returning to live in UK are treated the same as anyone else who comes to UK specifically for routine NHS treatment - they have to pay until they have been resident for a certain number of years. But overall, it's the pressure on social care that is more of an issue than NHS funding.


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## Cowboy Bob (Jun 26, 2016)

palmoff said:


> Cowboy bob..  Neoliberalism.



"Campbell Jones, Martin Parker, René ten Bos note that neoliberalism is famously associated with the economic policies introduced by Margaret Thatcher in the United Kingdom and Ronald Reagan in the United States.[7]"

So the US definition of liberal. Yes I can see that to some extent. But that's the free market side of the EU, the EEA, the bit we'll be negotiating to stay a member of.


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## Andy HB (Jun 26, 2016)

I can still find no evidence that the bank of England propped up the pound after the vote. Can anyone point me to anything?

(see my conversation on this subject earlier in this thread).

Ta,

Andy


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## ypauly (Jun 26, 2016)

The main problem is that when anybody thinks of the EU they think of a problem, there is always something you don't like, it maybe TTIP, it maybe immigration or even one for us diabetics, driving licence restrictions. I can honestly say I have not ever heard a single person say the EU is great, everybody wants some sort of reform everybody has at least one gripe.

For this to change the EU needs to start being seen as the solution rather than the problem, and to do that it needs a citizen treaty that would contain an EU wide minimum wage, a common housing policy and welfare system, maybe even pensions. These changes alone would end mass migration in the problematic numbers we see.

But most of all it needs to end unfairness, no more opt-outs, no more vetos we all live by the same rules set by elected officials only no more commission just one set of MP's that could maybe spend two days in their home nation and two days in Brussels if that's possible.


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## Robin (Jun 26, 2016)

Andy HB said:


> I can still find no evidence that the bank of England propped up the pound after the vote. Can anyone point me to anything?
> 
> (see my conversation on this subject earlier in this thread).
> 
> ...


Mark Carney said he was 'prepared' to inject money if necessary, but he hasn't actually had to. Some papers reported this as an 'intervention' which may have been misleading.


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## Andy HB (Jun 26, 2016)

Robin said:


> Mark Carney said he was 'prepared' to inject money if necessary, but he hasn't actually had to. Some papers reported this as an 'intervention' which may have been misleading.


This was my understanding. Thanks. 

I hope they never do intervene. George Soros has enough of our money already!


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