# 'Despicable' fraud costs NHS in England £1bn a year



## Northerner (Nov 1, 2017)

More will be done to protect the NHS in England from "despicable" acts of fraud, the head of the health service's new anti-fraud body has said.

Sue Frith promised a crackdown as she released figures suggesting the yearly bill for fraud in the NHS topped £1bn.

Cases include patients falsely claiming for exemptions on dental and prescription fees, and dentists charging for work they had not done.

Ms Frith said the fraud takes vital funds from front line care.

Ms Frith, the chief executive of the NHS Counter Fraud Agency, said it would be looking at new ways to fight the crime.

The analysis by her team estimated that £1.25bn of fraud is being committed each year by patients, staff and contractors - the first time the health service has put a figure on total fraud committed itself.

The sum represents about 1% of the NHS budget.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41824180


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## mikeyB (Nov 1, 2017)

The patient element is tiny, but will get all the headlines. It’s the contractors and drug companies that rip off mist of the money.


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## HOBIE (Nov 1, 2017)

Bad news. Its a good job we are all different. When you order prescriptions can they not be in the same amounts ie, 14 tablets or similar ?


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## Amigo (Nov 1, 2017)

HOBIE said:


> Bad news. Its a good job we are all different. When you order prescriptions can they not be in the same amounts ie, 14 tablets or similar ?



I don’t understand what you mean Hobie.


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## AJLang (Nov 1, 2017)

I'm also not sure what you mean Hobie. I certainly wouldn't want any of my prescriptions to be for less than a month and just one of my tablets I need 240 tablets a month.


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## HOBIE (Nov 1, 2017)

When you order a prescription you get odd boxes of tablets. If they standardized so they came in lots of 7/14 or so you know you had 4 weeks supply left etc instead of 5 of those tablets & 6 of another. Would that not make computer boffins know that someone is booking to many tablets out ?


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## Amigo (Nov 1, 2017)

HOBIE said:


> When you order a prescription you get odd boxes of tablets. If they standardized so they came in lots of 7/14 or so you know you had 4 weeks supply left etc instead of 5 of those tablets & 6 of another. Would that not make computer boffins know that someone is booking to many tablets out ?



I can’t see how the number of tablets prescribed is relevant to the issue of fraud Hobie. Odd, even or any other configuration of tablets wouldn’t alert the prescribing authorities but they do conduct spot checks in individuals and their eligibility. Most people with chronic conditions require longer term prescriptions anyway. I get mine for 3 months at a time and for some reason the surgery view a month as 28 days.
The prescribing authorities just don’t have enough people checking whether the free prescriptions are fraudulent and pharmacists are now supposed to do more stringent checks.

What is really despicable is professional fraud where dentists claim for work they haven’t done.


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## HOBIE (Nov 1, 2017)

I know we are honest people but if a couple of boxes of Asprins went astray it would not be noticed by authorities & chemists. If you ordered 3month supply how many "x" tablets & how many "Z" tablets are they. I will bet they are different numbers.


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## Wirrallass (Nov 1, 2017)

Amigo said:


> I can’t see how the number of tablets prescribed is relevant to the issue of fraud Hobie. Odd, even or any other configuration of tablets wouldn’t alert the prescribing authorities but they do conduct spot checks in individuals and their eligibility. Most people with chronic conditions require longer term prescriptions anyway. I get mine for 3 months at a time and for some reason the surgery view a month as 28 days.
> The prescribing authorities just don’t have enough people checking whether the free prescriptions are fraudulent and pharmacists are now supposed to do more stringent checks.
> 
> What is really despicable is professional fraud where dentists claim for work they haven’t done.


Maybe to be in line with the shortest month of the year Feb?


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## mikeyB (Nov 1, 2017)

That would hardly amount to £1.5bn, though, Hobie. As Amigo says, it’s the professionals, and the pharmaceutical companies who bleed money from the NHS, trebling or quadrupling the price of generic medicines.


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## HOBIE (Nov 1, 2017)

mikeyB said:


> That would hardly amount to £1.5bn, though, Hobie. As Amigo says, it’s the professionals, and the pharmaceutical companies who bleed money from the NHS, trebling or quadrupling the price of generic medicines.


Exactly mikey. A computer system could work all these numbers out. If Mr B had 2000 tablets in 3 month is that what could be sorted  & help ?


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## HOBIE (Nov 1, 2017)

How many Chemists across the country & how many patients ? How many computer systems across the NHS ?  I have ran my own company for more than 35yrs & I have not got lots & lots of spare gear all over. If people had paid for tablets there would not be so much waste etc


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## Amigo (Nov 1, 2017)

HOBIE said:


> How many Chemists across the country & how many patients ? How many computer systems across the NHS ?  I have ran my own company for more than 35yrs & I have not got lots & lots of spare gear all over. If people had paid for tablets there would not be so much waste etc



As I understand it Hobie, the prescriptions go to a central place for processing not all over the NHS.

The issue of waste of prescriptions is a different one and touches on issues different to fraud.

http://psnc.org.uk/wp-content/uploa...NHS-fraud-checking-notification-June-2016.pdf


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## HOBIE (Nov 1, 2017)

Amigo said:


> As I understand it Hobie, the prescriptions go to a central place for processing not all over the NHS.
> 
> The issue of waste of prescriptions is a different one and touches on issues different to fraud.
> 
> http://psnc.org.uk/wp-content/uploa...NHS-fraud-checking-notification-June-2016.pdf


I had a mate who now has passed away that had a cupboard full of tablets. What a waste & I know lots of people out there have spares of tablets. A computer programme could save an lot of waste & do the people who are "fiddling" If its written down that whoever had X amount of tablets in there mits


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## everydayupsanddowns (Nov 1, 2017)

I’m not sure on the division, but I’m sure @mikeyB is right and the patient part of this is tiny. 

The item I saw on the news suggested that the patient part was people illegally claiming free prescriptions they were not entitled to at all, I don’t think the amounts of the prescriptions were an issue.


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## Amigo (Nov 1, 2017)

everydayupsanddowns said:


> I’m not sure on the division, but I’m sure @mikeyB is right and the patient part of this is tiny.
> 
> The item I saw on the news suggested that the patient part was people illegally claiming free prescriptions they were not entitled to at all, I don’t think the amounts of the prescriptions were an issue.



Apparently unused prescriptions cost the NHS £300 million a year. It’s a shameful waste but a different issue to deliberate fraud where people knowingly fail to pay for prescriptions. The new iniatives of electronic ordering and pharmacies having to take some responsibility for ensuing eligibility for free prescriptions (where they can), should help.


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## Ralph-YK (Nov 1, 2017)

Unused prescriptions, as in tablets collected and left in the cupboard: would these people get repeates and collect more of the same tablets? Really.

How many tablets your get: I used to get three months work of a lot of my tablets were three monthly batches (newer prescriptions started weekly/fourtnightly to monthly).  Since changing GP practice last year I get monthly.

Hobbie, are you thinking of people ordering a repeat prescription long time before you've used the current supply, and maybe building up a stock/extra supply?  I believe my GP's system has a time set that a repeat can not be ordered in.  That is, you have to wait before you can get more.


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## Amigo (Nov 1, 2017)

Ralph-YK said:


> Unused prescriptions, as in tablets collected and left in the cupboard: would these people get repeates and collect more of the same tablets? Really.
> 
> How many tablets your get: I used to get three months work of a lot of my tablets were three monthly batches (newer prescriptions started weekly/fourtnightly to monthly).  Since changing GP practice last year I get monthly.
> 
> Hobbie, are you thinking of people ordering a repeat prescription long time before you've used the current supply, and maybe building up a stock/extra supply?  I believe my GP's system has a time set that a repeat can not be ordered in.  That is, you have to wait before you can get more.



I think it’s mainly prescribed courses of medication that people don’t take, don’t finish or can’t tolerate to be honest Ralph. I have a bag full of Metformin I couldn’t tolerate but the pharmacy won’t take back even unopened meds. It’s reckoned people often don’t finish courses of antibiotics.
People who are on essential repeat prescriptions are unlikely to waste them in the same way. I use every one of my b/p meds and as you say, the surgery know when the next one is due so stock piling isn’t possible.


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## Ralph-YK (Nov 1, 2017)

Amigo said:


> It’s reckoned people often don’t finish courses of antibiotics.


I might have heard that ages ago.  People feel better then stop taking them.


Amigo said:


> I think it’s mainly prescribed courses of medication that people don’t take, don’t finish or can’t tolerate to be honest Ralph.


You're right Amigo.

While all together, it might seem a lot of money for unused prescriptions (might not be compared to total prescription cost) on a individual level it's likely to be a box or two.  Sometimes, I've only been prescribed a weeks worth of drugs.


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## ypauly (Nov 1, 2017)

I think the end user with prescriptions e.t.c is a very thin end of a very fat wedge, I would love to know the true extent of backhanders and brown envelopes in return for contracts and PFI's and how close to the top office that all goes. I don't think prescriptions are the real problem, how a company was selected to supply them should be an open transparent process that includes patient groups.


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## Vince_UK (Nov 2, 2017)

I used to work for a company that is a global leader in medical equipment mainly anesthesia and patient monitoring. We also supplied 3rd party accessories such as mask etc. I was responsible for the manufacturing and supply chain. Believe me the patient element of this is very small compared to the wider scheme of things.
Where I currently am it is an endemic nightmare.
The capital equipment procurement processes are not transparent.


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## temporary_spike (Nov 2, 2017)

Whether it's us 'end-users' that are the problem or not, a timely reminder to check your NHS Medical exemption certificate is still valid! I'm sure the NHS will be checking up on us first, as that's the easy target, either you have an exemption and don't pay or you end up paying for the prescription and a fine!


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## HOBIE (Nov 2, 2017)

Ralph-YK said:


> Unused prescriptions, as in tablets collected and left in the cupboard: would these people get repeates and collect more of the same tablets? Really.
> 
> How many tablets your get: I used to get three months work of a lot of my tablets were three monthly batches (newer prescriptions started weekly/fourtnightly to monthly).  Since changing GP practice last year I get monthly.
> 
> Hobbie, are you thinking of people ordering a repeat prescription long time before you've used the current supply, and maybe building up a stock/extra supply?  I believe my GP's system has a time set that a repeat can not be ordered in.  That is, you have to wait before you can get more.


If tablets where 20 per pkt or the same it would be better. I am on 10 different a day with all different numbers of tablets per strip. If they standardized the boxes it would be easier with less waste. If you where told to take tablets for a week & had one box with 7 tablets great.


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## Ralph-YK (Nov 3, 2017)

HOBIE said:


> . If you where told to take tablets for a week & had one box with 7 tablets great.


I have had prescriptions for 7. 14. 28 and a few different ones.


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