# T2 Newbie - hoping to reverse it



## WalkdontRun (Dec 16, 2022)

Hi 
Just got a T2 diagnosis from a doctor after a blood test noticed it. I was so shellshocked, I didn't know what to ask. Going to meet my Gp next week and wondered what should I ask (hoping to get the blood tests back from the hospital to pass onto the GP). My hospital doc ("routine year end" check for a previous unrelated condition)gave me a perscription for Metaformin and some cholestorol cutting tablets. I think she said I was showing 8 in my blood test (presuming it was the test for glucose levels). My weight is 86kg (13.54st), I'm 52 and 5ft 10. Checking my BMI it says I need to cut about 5KG to move out of obese. I am going to try the crash diet option and see if cutting my weight down substantially would allow me to go into remission. The diet and 850cal limit seems daunting but I'm willing to try anything to avoid long term medication and future diabetes issues. 
I have no other underlying health issues that would impede any fitness and food changes. Walking the dog daily (at the dogs slow walking pace wasn't obviously enough). Lots of forum users seem to start running but not sure if I could get that fit. The diets seem to last 8 weeks to see results. Any ideas of what my weight would have to fall to (somebody said 10KG). My usual weight (when I was in my 30's was about 75KG). I've already cut the sweets and obvous refined sugars (don't smoke or a anywhere near a drinker) and I always thought I should be aiming for 80KG. I had a big sweet tooth so thats _easy_ to dump (well it is now!) and no issue with sugary drinks etc. How do i know how much extra fitness I need to do? What weight loss would I need to be aiming for (and how fast) and should I still take the tablets asap and then do start the "crash" diet now. I've barely eaten since the diagnosis (bar salads and some nuts and cups of tea. I cannot see any obvious signs of T2 (unless everyone else feels different). I had suffered tiredness but I presumed that was sleep apnea. I am a night owl and could often miss meals. 
I also wonder should I just stick on the current meals (bar anything sweet/alcohol/bread) till after christmas. I've told nobody close as still freaking out.  Sorry for long opener but its only diabetec books and the internet as being my advice so far (meeting GP tues)


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## travellor (Dec 17, 2022)

Take the Metformin.
Do the 8 weeks shake based diet.
At 8, I'd have a quietish Christmas, and target the diet for your new year resolution.
Take it from there.


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## WalkdontRun (Dec 17, 2022)

Can someone give me an idea of what sort of fitness I need to start with. I walked my dog regularly but she is quite slow so getting out of breath is difficult. It is just frequency (ie 30mins a day). Does it matter when you do this (morning). What constitutes a run (or walk) - time? Probably not going to just start running if I'm being honest.
Also I see many side effects of Metformin and does that change with a "higher" rate of exercise. 
Ill cut all the sugar and alcohol I can till then. Would a resting heart rate give me some idea of fitness?


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## Lucyr (Dec 17, 2022)

If you’re starting the 8 week 800 calorie diet I wouldn’t push the exercise too much to start with so as not to wipe yourself out. Walking the dog and incorporating some intervals of fast walking or jogging between the strolling may be a good place to start?


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## Midgie (Dec 17, 2022)

WalkdontRun said:


> Can someone give me an idea of what sort of fitness I need to start with. I walked my dog regularly but she is quite slow so getting out of breath is difficult. It is just frequency (ie 30mins a day). Does it matter when you do this (morning). What constitutes a run (or walk) - time? Probably not going to just start running if I'm being honest.
> Also I see many side effects of Metformin and does that change with a "higher" rate of exercise.
> Ill cut all the sugar and alcohol I can till then. Would a resting heart rate give me some idea of fitness?


I’m using the ‘couch to 5k’ app. Never in my life would I have thought that I could run the length of myself, never mind 5k but I’m getting there! I got a reduced gym membership through my gp practice, so I do the app, then 20 mins on the elliptical and 20 minutes on the bike. (I also  brisk walk the dog 2 miles a day) good luck!


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## harbottle (Dec 17, 2022)

WalkdontRun said:


> Hi
> Just got a T2 diagnosis from a doctor after a blood test noticed it. I was so shellshocked, I didn't know what to ask. Going to meet my Gp next week and wondered what should I ask (hoping to get the blood tests back from the hospital to pass onto the GP). My hospital doc ("routine year end" check for a previous unrelated condition)gave me a perscription for Metaformin and some cholestorol cutting tablets. I think she said I was showing 8 in my blood test (presuming it was the test for glucose levels). My weight is 86kg (13.54st), I'm 52 and 5ft 10. Checking my BMI it says I need to cut about 5KG to move out of obese. I am going to try the crash diet option and see if cutting my weight down substantially would allow me to go into remission. The diet and 850cal limit seems daunting but I'm willing to try anything to avoid long term medication and future diabetes issues.
> I have no other underlying health issues that would impede any fitness and food changes. Walking the dog daily (at the dogs slow walking pace wasn't obviously enough). Lots of forum users seem to start running but not sure if I could get that fit. The diets seem to last 8 weeks to see results. Any ideas of what my weight would have to fall to (somebody said 10KG). My usual weight (when I was in my 30's was about 75KG). I've already cut the sweets and obvous refined sugars (don't smoke or a anywhere near a drinker) and I always thought I should be aiming for 80KG. I had a big sweet tooth so thats _easy_ to dump (well it is now!) and no issue with sugary drinks etc. How do i know how much extra fitness I need to do? What weight loss would I need to be aiming for (and how fast) and should I still take the tablets asap and then do start the "crash" diet now. I've barely eaten since the diagnosis (bar salads and some nuts and cups of tea. I cannot see any obvious signs of T2 (unless everyone else feels different). I had suffered tiredness but I presumed that was sleep apnea. I am a night owl and could often miss meals.
> I also wonder should I just stick on the current meals (bar anything sweet/alcohol/bread) till after christmas. I've told nobody close as still freaking out.  Sorry for long opener but its only diabetec books and the internet as being my advice so far (meeting GP tues)



I was a similar weight and height when diagnosed last year (No obvious signs, despite a hba1c of 83, but I was experiencing leg pains.). I lost around 3 stone in 3 months and got it down to 36 using a low carb/low calorie diet. I pretty much cut out sweets, crisps, rice, potato and pasta.

I also walk every day, which I enjoy as I use the time to listen to music and mull over work problems and stories I'm writing. During the summer I mixed walking with a bit of jogging as well, mainly to build muscles as I found when I lost weight everything went a bit 'loose' and flabby. I also have some small weights I use to build up arm muscles as they are pencil thin. 

Not sure if it's been 'reversed' or just being controlled by diet - GP suggested stopping the Metformin. I have a feeling that I've probably had it for some time and it isn't reversible in that I can go back to a 'normal' diet, but it seems to be staying under control and I hardly ever see a reading above 7.0 after a meal (Even if I have a cheeky potato or two).


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## Felinia (Dec 17, 2022)

A diabetes diagnosis is such a shock and it can be easy to rush in and try and do everything at once and too quickly.  
Your current BMI is 27.3, so in the overweight category.  A normal BMI is 25 or less - in your case 12 stone 6 pounds - so you  know what you should aim for.  Diabetes control has been suggested as a marathon, not a sprint.  
So I personally would recommend you follow a healthy eating pattern, rather than a drastic 800 cals a day diet, cutting back on carbs until you are having less than 130gm a day (the suggested maximum), but not too drastically or too quickly.  A sudden big drop in carbs can cause eye problems like blurry vision, which should right itself over a period of time.  You can get online apps to help you record and measure your daily calorie and carb intake.  I use NutraCheck but there are others.
As for exercise I go to the pool 3 times a week, and I have a mini exercise bike at home.  Most pools have early morning or late night sessions for working people.  One person mentioned couch to 5k which builds you up slowly.  The last thing you want to do, is overdo things and get injured!!
Metformin can come with side effects - bowel problems.  These may well ease after a few weeks, but if not, you can ask for the slow release version.  There are other medications - I take both Metformin and Canagliflozin as I can't stomach the full Metformin dose.
Importantly, you need to know what your HbA1c is, as you need to know where you are starting from.  <42 mmol/l is non-diabetic, 42-47 mmol/l is pre-diabetic and 48+mmol/l is diabetic.  The closer you are to 48 the better, as it will take fewer tweaks to your lifestyle.  This is a question for your GP.  Many people whose HbA1c is less than 60 mmol/l are given the opportunity to reduce their HbA1c by lifestyle (diet and exercise) changes alone.  I was, and was doing OK until I became ill.
You might find lots of helpful meal suggestions in the Food section of this Forum, looking for Type 2 posters.  I make a lot of my own soups (excluding potato) and I have substituted things like cauliflower (mash or rice) for potato and rice, or low carb soya bean spaghetti / courgetti for normal pasta.  There are low carb breads you could try.  As an example, todays menu is B: poached egg with grilled mushrooms and tomatoes; L: HM veggie and tomato soup; D: roast chicken, cauliflower rice, 5 different veggies.  With milk and my cholesterol reducing drink it's 1100 cals and 88gm carbs.
This is a long post but I hope you find some of the suggestions useful.  We are all different and each manages their diabetes in their own way.  Best wishes.


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## Ditto (Dec 17, 2022)

Hello and welcome.


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## travellor (Dec 17, 2022)

Felinia said:


> A diabetes diagnosis is such a shock and it can be easy to rush in and try and do everything at once and too quickly.
> Your current BMI is 27.3, so in the overweight category.  A normal BMI is 25 or less - in your case 12 stone 6 pounds - so you  know what you should aim for.  Diabetes control has been suggested as a marathon, not a sprint.
> So I personally would recommend you follow a healthy eating pattern, rather than a drastic 800 cals a day diet, cutting back on carbs until you are having less than 130gm a day (the suggested maximum), but not too drastically or too quickly.  A sudden big drop in carbs can cause eye problems like blurry vision, which should right itself over a period of time.  You can get online apps to help you record and measure your daily calorie and carb intake.  I use NutraCheck but there are others.
> As for exercise I go to the pool 3 times a week, and I have a mini exercise bike at home.  Most pools have early morning or late night sessions for working people.  One person mentioned couch to 5k which builds you up slowly.  The last thing you want to do, is overdo things and get injured!!
> ...



The Newcastle Diet in itself is reasonably low carb, but not enough to be an issue with drastic carb reduction.

I did the Newcastle Diet with no issues.
As you say, it's personal choice, I was looking at trying to reverse my diabetes, (which I did), as I thought trying to stay on a low carb diet for life to manage it by diet control would have been too restrictive for my lifestyle.


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## Felinia (Dec 17, 2022)

travellor said:


> The Newcastle Diet in itself is reasonably low carb, but not enough to be an issue with drastic carb reduction.
> 
> I did the Newcastle Diet with no issues.
> As you say, it's personal choice, I was looking at trying to reverse my diabetes, (which I did), as I thought trying to stay on a low carb diet for life to manage it by diet control would have been too restrictive for my lifestyle.


I'm glad the Newcastle Diet worked for you.  I see you now follow a Mediterranean style eating plan.  Was that what you ate before your diagnosis, or did you adopt it after going into remission?  I have found I cannot eat as I did before, and have had to make permanent changes.  Getting my HbA1c back down again after illness is still "work in progress"!


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## travellor (Dec 17, 2022)

Felinia said:


> I'm glad the Newcastle Diet worked for you.  I see you now follow a Mediterranean style eating plan.  Was that what you ate before your diagnosis, or did you adopt it after going into remission?  I have found I cannot eat as I did before, and have had to make permanent changes.  Getting my HbA1c back down again after illness is still "work in progress"!



I ate donuts, pies, red meat, bacon, sausages, high saturated fats, far too many sandwiches.
I was morbidly obese.
But I'd done it to myself, so being diagnosed type 2 was the wake up call I needed.
With the help of the NHS I did a low fat diet for a year, and hit the gym.
After that I was into probably a normal BMI, but still not quite reversed.
The Newcastle Diet had just come into the news, so I finished off with that, and managed to reverse it completely.
I don't know if it was the final weight loss, or something in the lack of calories, but either way I lost around 5 stones overall. 

The other benefit was the disconnect with food, so after the diet all my old bad habits were gone, so I was free to choose a better way to eat.
I looked at all the information, took what they all agreed on, left out what they all disagreed on, and a Mediterranean style diet fitted the bill for me.
It not a strict diet, if I'm out I can eat anything, rather than starve, but then again, I don't need to eat, I find feeling hungry is my prompt to eat now.


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## Drummer (Dec 17, 2022)

Back in the day I did Atkins, so I knew how well I felt and how easily I lost weight on low carb, so I went back to that.
My second Hba1c test showed I was no longer in the diabetes range. 
At 6 months my Hba1c was 41. 
To me it seemed sensible to do things the easy way doing something I could sustain indefinitely.
I have just passed 5 years from diagnosis.


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## WalkdontRun (Dec 17, 2022)

Many thanks to all. Leaves me with some more info to talk with the GP (and any dietician). I would hope to try the remission route via the drastic weight loss which gives the potential to do a reset if it works for me. Reading back and looking at my BMI, it looks like 68-69KG would be the target so 15KG loss (which seems alot even to lift that alone!). I cannot avail of any "free" support for this journey as this remission T2 diet option is not on offer where I live. However I am aware of doing it asap as per the medical trial results. It would have to be Christmas!! but then again, doing a big weight cut in January is totally normal for most. Just not as big as I will need to achieve!!! I'm hoping my GP will know much about this remission "therapy" as most doctors here will prefer tablets and "a constant low cal diet". Going on a med diet post remission seems like a nirvana now. Even not eating much since the news, I've lost weight! I'll miss the chocolate/ice-cream (especially) but probably not the sweets. 
For those in remission, how do they avoid going back without noticing it? What did they ask their GP and dietician. Did they aim for the lower end of their BMI? Do they weight themselves every day? Do they have to check their glucose levels every week themselves? Did they stop eating red meat? Most seem to have stopped eating pasta (even if it was wholemeal)


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## Drummer (Dec 17, 2022)

WalkdontRun said:


> Many thanks to all. Leaves me with some more info to talk with the GP (and any dietician). I would hope to try the remission route via the drastic weight loss which gives the potential to do a reset if it works for me. Reading back and looking at my BMI, it looks like 68-69KG would be the target so 15KG loss (which seems alot even to lift that alone!). I cannot avail of any "free" support for this journey as this remission T2 diet option is not on offer where I live. However I am aware of doing it asap as per the medical trial results. It would have to be Christmas!! but then again, doing a big weight cut in January is totally normal for most. Just not as big as I will need to achieve!!! I'm hoping my GP will know much about this remission "therapy" as most doctors here will prefer tablets and "a constant low cal diet". Going on a med diet post remission seems like a nirvana now. Even not eating much since the news, I've lost weight! I'll miss the chocolate/ice-cream (especially) but probably not the sweets.
> For those in remission, how do they avoid going back without noticing it? What did they ask their GP and dietician. Did they aim for the lower end of their BMI? Do they weight themselves every day? Do they have to check their glucose levels every week themselves? Did they stop eating red meat? Most seem to have stopped eating pasta (even if it was wholemeal)


I eat meat, fish seafood, eggs cheese and full fat dairy.
These days I have no more than 40 gm of carbs a day, eat two meals at around 12 hourly intervals.
I never got any dietary advice from GP or any HCP because I acted far faster than they reacted.
I got a meter and checked my blood glucose after eating - just as I had always felt, high carb foods were not what I needed.


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## Drummer (Dec 17, 2022)

If you get high cocoa chocolate - (I buy the 95% cocoa one from Lidl) and make your own icecream from eggs and cream, there is no reason to avoid them, but these days I eat very little of either - very little of anything actually. It is amazing how small an amount is enough when the menu isn't carbohydrate laden.


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## travellor (Dec 17, 2022)

WalkdontRun said:


> IMany thanks to all. Leaves me with some more info to talk with the GP (and any dietician). I would hope to try the remission route via the drastic weight loss which gives the potential to do a reset if it works for me. Reading back and looking at my BMI, it looks like 68-69KG would be the target so 15KG loss (which seems alot even to lift that alone!). I cannot avail of any "free" support for this journey as this remission T2 diet option is not on offer where I live. However I am aware of doing it asap as per the medical trial results. It would have to be Christmas!! but then again, doing a big weight cut in January is totally normal for most. Just not as big as I will need to achieve!!! I'm hoping my GP will know much about this remission "therapy" as most doctors here will prefer tablets and "a constant low cal diet". Going on a med diet post remission seems like a nirvana now. Even not eating much since the news, I've lost weight! I'll miss the chocolate/ice-cream (especially) but probably not the sweets.
> For those in remission, how do they avoid going back without noticing it? What did they ask their GP and dietician. Did they aim for the lower end of their BMI? Do they weight themselves every day? Do they have to check their glucose levels every week themselves? Did they stop eating red meat? Most seem to have stopped eating pasta (even if it was wholemeal)



I used Tesco shakes.

My doctor was happy to do blood tests, but it was well before the Newcastle Diet was medically recognised as a treatment.
For me, it was simply the fact I lost the taste for sweet food.
I did trick myself by switching to very spicey food, which helped, and I still eat a lot of chilli.
I was never actually keen on pasta, I rarely eat it now.
I used to weigh myself every day, but mainly I know in the mirror what's happening.

Fat is twice as calorific as carbs and protein, so I still eat low fat.
Saturated fats push my cholesterol up, so I try to make them not my fat of choice.

Really, I found spacing out meals (I used to eat mostly at night), avoiding snacks, and eating sensibly now just works well.


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## Felinia (Dec 17, 2022)

Like travellor, I have Tesco shakes instead of breakfast, when I am going to the pool, as I can't exercise on a full tummy. They are less sweet and cheaper than some of the "brand" names.  I make mine up with 1/3 unsweetened almond milk and 2/3 chilled water, then I let them stand in the fridge for 20 minutes to thicken up. 
Although we have taken different paths, we both eat differently now, to when we were first diagnosed.  I hope you find your path


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## Leadinglights (Dec 17, 2022)

Whatever way you choose to get to grips with the weight loss and reduction in blood glucose has to be enjoyable otherwise it is not sustainable and should be regarded as a new way of eating not A DIET. 
There are plenty of foods you can eat and it is not all sack cloth and ashes. Meals based on meat, fish, eggs, cheese, dairy, vegetables and salads with only small portions of high carb foods still gives you options for tasty meals.
This link may give you some ideas for modifying your diet, it is a low carb approach based on real foods. https://lowcarbfreshwell.co.uk/


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## travellor (Dec 17, 2022)

Leadinglights said:


> Whatever way you choose to get to grips with the weight loss and reduction in blood glucose has to be enjoyable otherwise it is not sustainable and should be regarded as a new way of eating not A DIET.
> There are plenty of foods you can eat and it is not all sack cloth and ashes. Meals based on meat, fish, eggs, cheese, dairy, vegetables and salads with only small portions of high carb foods still gives you options for tasty meals.
> This link may give you some ideas for modifying your diet, it is a low carb approach based on real foods. https://lowcarbfreshwell.co.uk/



It definitely is a DIET

8 weeks DIET, then back to a normal way of eating, everything including carbs in the mix.
Not a low carb diet control for life.
Why should life be diet controlled if it doesn't need to be?

Why do all low calorie threads get bombed by "go low carb"?
Accept we have different ways to treat diabetes, you want a DIET for life, others bite the bullet, accept there may be very short term pain, and choose that path for a very long term gain?
Why should we need to be committed to a life time diet because it's easier for a few weeks initially?

Bite the bullet, reverse diabetes, move on in life, don't be stuck in a "low carb for life diet" unless you really want to choose that option


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## Docb (Dec 18, 2022)

Wish that worked for me.  My experience is that having got my blood glucose under control by carb control, I need to keep that up otherwise my blood glucose will be back where it was in no time at all. 

If there is a difference between us @travellor I guess it would be that I was never particularly overweight.  The, "crash diet to get your weight down and then eat what you like provided you maintain your lower weight", route was not an option for me.  As is said many times on the forum it is wise listen to all the experiences and then work out what will be best for you.


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## travellor (Dec 18, 2022)

Docb said:


> Wish that worked for me.  My experience is that having got my blood glucose under control by carb control, I need to keep that up otherwise my blood glucose will be back where it was in no time at all.
> 
> If there is a difference between us @travellor I guess it would be that I was never particularly overweight.  The, "crash diet to get your weight down and then eat what you like provided you maintain your lower weight", route was not an option for me.  As is said many times on the forum it is wise listen to all the experiences and then work out what will be best for you.



I agree.
If a poster has worked out the best route and asks specifically about a treatment with a medical record proven to reverse diabetes, as an option, it seems fair to respect that, and give advice on how  to try that first, rather than bypass it entirely, and move straight into a low carb maintenance diet?
As you say, once you have taken the low carb route, it does appear to have a different effect, it does reduce weight, but doesn't seem to "restart" the pancreas in the same way possibly?


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## Kreator (Dec 18, 2022)

travellor said:


> As you say, once you have taken the low carb route, it does appear to have a different effect, it does reduce weight, but doesn't seem to "restart" the pancreas in the same way possibly?


I wonder this too...

I went the Low Cal / Weight Loss route myself, I've never counted Carbs, although I'm mindful of what I eat - I know for sure my body is doing now what it's supposed to now...

I always thought as I'm 'In Remission' I shouldn't need to be too concerned about Carbs and for me, it's more about not eating Ultra Processed foods, so the less processed a food is the better, and it's all about balance rather than a specific food type...

@WalkdontRun whichever route you choose, enjoy your journey and remember 'what works for you'


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## harbottle (Dec 18, 2022)

Not everyone can reverse it through it through weight loss, even if overweight/obese to begin with ('Non responders', according to to Taylor's book) - it also seems that the length of time you'd been T2 can affect whether or not the pancreas can start to work again... and in some folk it just doesn't. 

I didn't use the Newcastle diet, but used the Caldesi books (And lost weight very quickly with a meal plan) but they're pretty much identical with their advice - avoid starchy vegetables and junk food. By the time I go round to looking up the Newcastle diet I'd already lost a lot of weight and didn't see much difference in the advice. (I did get some shakes as they were handy for when I didn't have time to make some lunch.)

Whether it's reversed (I have no idea if I can eat, say, a cheeseburger without getting hyperglycaemic) or under control by diet I don't care - as long as I don't go back to feeling as bad I felt over a year ago!


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## travellor (Dec 18, 2022)

@WalkdontRun 

In a roundabout way, I think the answer to your question, for me, was I lost as much weight as I needed to. (Or it was something specific to the very low calorie method)
But it was back at the start of the whole reversal discovery, so there were no rules really.


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## WalkdontRun (Dec 19, 2022)

Many thanks for all the advise so far. Hopefully the 12KG or so will be possible in 2mths. How did users get past the same food every day (shakes) etc. Was 800cal per day what most aimed at? Any other tips from dieticians? I'm back eating more mixed nuts (unsalted). Are nuts bad? Just read Roy Taylors book and it was nice to know that just the stuff you got in the supermarket worked just as well. Were users aiming at a weight loss percentage or just a number. In attaining remission (if they did), did they notice any benefits beyond ending medication (and fitting into more clothes). Increased energy seems to be possible (or was that also due to more exercise). How long did users remain on the medication after hitting their weight loss target and the hba1c tests showing them in the "safe" zone. What side effects did users see when in the "crash" diet. Are diabetecs insulin production permanently damaged even when back in "remission". Did users see a continual weight loss or was it slow to start/fast at the end etc. Did the fat come off their waist or did other areas start first (legs/arms/hips etc). Does anyone practise fasting as a way of recovering (or future offsetting) from a "normal" meal (wedding/restaurant etc). Not a big fan of recipie books as usually I am missing 80% of the ingredients. Is this the end of home made bread/wholemeal pasta/cheese on toast/milkshakes/Beer (the good stuff)?


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## Kreator (Dec 19, 2022)

WalkdontRun said:


> Many thanks for all the advise so far. Hopefully the 12KG or so will be possible in 2mths. How did users get past the same food every day (shakes) etc. Was 800cal per day what most aimed at? Any other tips from dieticians? I'm back eating more mixed nuts (unsalted). Are nuts bad? Just read Roy Taylors book and it was nice to know that just the stuff you got in the supermarket worked just as well. Were users aiming at a weight loss percentage or just a number. In attaining remission (if they did), did they notice any benefits beyond ending medication (and fitting into more clothes). Increased energy seems to be possible (or was that also due to more exercise). How long did users remain on the medication after hitting their weight loss target and the hba1c tests showing them in the "safe" zone. What side effects did users see when in the "crash" diet. Are diabetecs insulin production permanently damaged even when back in "remission". Did users see a continual weight loss or was it slow to start/fast at the end etc. Did the fat come off their waist or did other areas start first (legs/arms/hips etc). Does anyone practise fasting as a way of recovering (or future offsetting) from a "normal" meal (wedding/restaurant etc). Not a big fan of recipie books as usually I am missing 80% of the ingredients. Is this the end of home made bread/wholemeal pasta/cheese on toast/milkshakes/Beer (the good stuff)?


For me it 800 Cals (4 200 Cal shakes a day) and plenty of water 2.5 litres per day...

I took to it like a duck to water, it was simple but I had to work out when to take each shake and spread it throughout the day

Exercise was not on the agenda

Nuts (unsalted,unroasted) are good but be mindful of portion size - 20g is enough but not while on the shakes as they alone are quite Calorific!

My goal was 15Kg weight loss - I achieved 20Kg (I found my happy weight)

My medication was stopped altogether on starting, but you'll need speak to your DN...

Increased energy was from around week 6-7 - and plenty of it too!

My weight loss was quicker at the beginning but around 1Kg a week towards the end

My belly was the last thing to go!

No - this isn't the end of 'the good stuff'! - It's a journey into the new you, and you should find the new good stuff!

Keep an open mind, and explore new things, and above all enjoy the journey!


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## everydayupsanddowns (Dec 19, 2022)

There are a number of forum members who have posed questions about, or written diaries of their own experiences of the Newcastle diet.

Here are a few which might offer some interesting snippets


			https://forum.diabetes.org.uk/boards/search/159256/?q=Newcastle&t=post&c%5Bchild_nodes%5D=1&c%5Bnodes%5D%5B0%5D=22&c%5Btitle_only%5D=1&o=date


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## bulkbiker (Dec 19, 2022)

WalkdontRun said:


> For those in remission, how do they avoid going back without noticing it?


For me after normalising blood sugars with an ultra low carb diet, followed by significant weigh loss, I continued to monitor my blood sugars and still do so to this day 7 years later. I'd suggest getting a blood glucose meter to monitor your levels and to show you what specific foods (and the ND shakes) do to your blood glucose.
Personally I'm of the opinion that crash diets rarely lead to prolonged weight loss so changed what I ate completely.  
My blood sugars were back to normal before most of my weight loss. 
Many here followed the ND approach with some success but similarly good results are doable with other dietary changes.


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## Kreator (Dec 19, 2022)

bulkbiker said:


> For me after normalising blood sugars with an ultra low carb diet, followed by significant weigh loss, I continued to monitor my blood sugars and still do so to this day 7 years later. I'd suggest getting a blood glucose meter to monitor your levels and to show you what specific foods (and the ND shakes) do to your blood glucose.
> Personally I'm of the opinion that crash diets rarely lead to prolonged weight loss so changed what I ate completely.
> My blood sugars were back to normal before most of my weight loss.
> Many here followed the ND approach with some success but similarly good results are doable with other dietary changes.


...worked for me


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## bulkbiker (Dec 19, 2022)

Kreator said:


> ...worked for me


Well done.. it doesn't however work for everybody as Taylor's own research shows..


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## travellor (Dec 19, 2022)

Kreator said:


> ...worked for me



Yes, and me, and many others on here.


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## travellor (Dec 19, 2022)

WalkdontRun said:


> Many thanks for all the advise so far. Hopefully the 12KG or so will be possible in 2mths. How did users get past the same food every day (shakes) etc. Was 800cal per day what most aimed at? Any other tips from dieticians? I'm back eating more mixed nuts (unsalted). Are nuts bad? Just read Roy Taylors book and it was nice to know that just the stuff you got in the supermarket worked just as well. Were users aiming at a weight loss percentage or just a number. In attaining remission (if they did), did they notice any benefits beyond ending medication (and fitting into more clothes). Increased energy seems to be possible (or was that also due to more exercise). How long did users remain on the medication after hitting their weight loss target and the hba1c tests showing them in the "safe" zone. What side effects did users see when in the "crash" diet. Are diabetecs insulin production permanently damaged even when back in "remission". Did users see a continual weight loss or was it slow to start/fast at the end etc. Did the fat come off their waist or did other areas start first (legs/arms/hips etc). Does anyone practise fasting as a way of recovering (or future offsetting) from a "normal" meal (wedding/restaurant etc). Not a big fan of recipie books as usually I am missing 80% of the ingredients. Is this the end of home made bread/wholemeal pasta/cheese on toast/milkshakes/Beer (the good stuff)?



I just kept the weight off 
I eat sensibly now, so it's definitely not the end of anything.
I did lose my sweet tooth, so I don't actually like anything too sweet anymore.
I did exercise, the advice now is not to, but I did it before it was an official treatment.
I didn't notice any issue personally.

I didn't worry about BG, any change of anything in diabetes will mess your BG up,  it can go up and down with the weather, so I ignored anything for at least two weeks if I made any changes.
With hindsight, a month is probably better.


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## WalkdontRun (Dec 21, 2022)

Looking at it now, it seems 15KG is the target as a good BMI is 65-70 for my height and weight. Still unsure whether to jump into a total diet replacement. Never a breakfast eater so might skip that (bar a cup of tea/coffee). I realise I am eating too late so will work on that. So target cut is about 13KG (assuming christmas dinner without dessets is ignored). Did everyone tell their family about the diagnosis (assuming the weight issue was not obvious to everyone else). Some diet plans say 6 weeks and others 2-3mths but I guess the scales and tape measure will answer that. Hoping to hit the 30min per day exercise straight away and then see what extra is needed if weight does not fall as targeted. Hesitant to take the metaformin till after christmas day as GP noted stomach aches are very common (if not worse for some).  Then again the remission results for such a diet are less than 50% success which scares me rigid. I don't want to say yes to the pharmacist who said they could keep the prescription ready as these drugs were long term...  GP seemed more happy with gradual weight loss and come back in a 2 months but I'm hoping the next blood tests then, will show a number I can keep to for months after and earn the remission "badge".


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## 42istheanswer (Dec 21, 2022)

I told my family. I think for my siblings it's important for them to be able to factor in to their consideration of their own potential risk. (Already some family history and one of my brothers was pre-diabetic a few years ago, he reversed it by changing his dietary lifestyle - cutting out pastries for breakfast, which is a common breakfast where he lives, and cutting heavily down on sugar in his diet. I also wanted to explain to my kids why I was weighing my food and changing what I was eating.) I took a little longer to tell my partner's family but told them in time to ask not to be given a delicious jar of sweets for Christmas as I was last year.

I'm not sure what you mean about "assuming the weight issue wasn't obvious to everyone else" - being overweight doesn't necessarily mean you have or will develop diabetes, and my grandfather's type 2 diabetes was diagnosed when he was underweight, my brother who was previously pre-diabetic has never been overweight - although he did also decide to lose a bit of weight to get to the "ideal weight" for his height. So I wouldn't expect your family to guess that you're diabetic from your weight or if they notice that you have lost weight once you have.


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## Spathiphyllum (Dec 21, 2022)

WalkdontRun said:


> Looking at it now, it seems 15KG is the target as a good BMI is 65-70 for my height and weight. Still unsure whether to jump into a total diet replacement. Never a breakfast eater so might skip that (bar a cup of tea/coffee). I realise I am eating too late so will work on that. So target cut is about 13KG (assuming christmas dinner without dessets is ignored). Did everyone tell their family about the diagnosis (assuming the weight issue was not obvious to everyone else). Some diet plans say 6 weeks and others 2-3mths but I guess the scales and tape measure will answer that. Hoping to hit the 30min per day exercise straight away and then see what extra is needed if weight does not fall as targeted. Hesitant to take the metaformin till after christmas day as GP noted stomach aches are very common (if not worse for some).  Then again the remission results for such a diet are less than 50% success which scares me rigid. I don't want to say yes to the pharmacist who said they could keep the prescription ready as these drugs were long term...  GP seemed more happy with gradual weight loss and come back in a 2 months but I'm hoping the next blood tests then, will show a number I can keep to for months after and earn the remission "badge".


You said in a previous post that the NHS "remission T2 diet option is not on offer where I live", but that post seems to have been before you spoke to your GP? If you've only gone by information online, do ask your GP specifically about it; the NHS is supposed to be in the process of rolling out this programme, so it may be available in more areas than are listed online. The great thing about the NHS programme is that you get regular support from a dietician/counsellor, for a whole year, in sticking to the initial very low calorie phase and then also finding and sticking to a healthy maintenance diet.

Travellor's previous comments are correct. There are three different ways of dealing with Type 2:

1) Just take drugs to try to manage it.
2) Change to a low-carb diet, permanently, to try to manage it.
3) Go on a very low calorie diet ('VLCD')-- the 'Newcastle Diet'-- to try to reverse it.

If you go for option 3, and it works-- this means you have reversed your insulin resistance, so you can eat a normal healthy diet for the rest of your life; you do not have to eat low-carb.

Where option 3 works, it works because a crash diet-- a VLCD for 8-12 weeks-- makes your body particularly likely to shed visceral fat. (It is excess visceral fat that triggers T2D. Some people have excess visceral fat even if they don't have much subcutaneous fat, and some people can have lots of subcutaneous fat but little visceral fat.)  Gradual weight loss can lead to losing visceral fat, but is less likely to-- you may only or mostly lose subcutaneous fat instead-- so is less likely to achieve the goal of remission/reversal.

There's a lot of good information online about the Newcastle research and the Newcastle diet, for example this booklet, produced by the Newcastle team in 2018: https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwncla.../files/201809 Sample Recipes & meal plans.pdf .

If the NHS programme really isn't available in your area, you should give your GP some more information about the Newcastle plan, and the NHS programme-- unfortunately, a lot of GPs don't really know much about it-- and discuss how, specifically, he or she could support you. 

Finally: You say "the remission results for such a diet are less than 50% success which scares me rigid." That's not quite correct. In the main study to date, nearly two-thirds of people achieved remission-- *if* they lost 10kg or more and kept at least 10kg off for two years: see for example https://www.diabetes.org.uk/about_us/news/weight-loss-type-2-diabetes-remission-direct-latest .

So, if you kick-start with the Newcastle diet, then lose the rest of the 13kg you're aiming for, and then keep at least 10kg of that off-- you are very likely to achieve and maintain remission. And, even if you don't achieve reversal, studies show that doing the VLCD is likely to improve your blood glucose and reduce your need for medication. Well worth a try!


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## Kreator (Dec 21, 2022)

Spathiphyllum said:


> The great thing about the NHS programme is that you get regular support from a dietician/counsellor, for a whole year, in sticking to the initial very low calorie phase and then also finding and sticking to a healthy maintenance diet.


I did this as part of the 5000 initial Pilot rollout - not sure how many people had success from it, but all I can say is that it helped me in more ways than I could have imagined!

It's being rolled out to more areas I believe now, so ask your GP about it or similar


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## travellor (Dec 21, 2022)

Spathiphyllum said:


> You said in a previous post that the NHS "remission T2 diet option is not on offer where I live", but that post seems to have been before you spoke to your GP? If you've only gone by information online, do ask your GP specifically about it; the NHS is supposed to be in the process of rolling out this programme, so it may be available in more areas than are listed online. The great thing about the NHS programme is that you get regular support from a dietician/counsellor, for a whole year, in sticking to the initial very low calorie phase and then also finding and sticking to a healthy maintenance diet.
> 
> Travellor's previous comments are correct. There are three different ways of dealing with Type 2:
> 
> ...



That is interesting about the difference in diets.
I noticed slow weight loss over a year didn't give the results I wanted, so I did the Newcastle diet at the end, even though I had already lost a lot of weight, it was the Newcastle Diet that did reverse my diabetes.


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## Spathiphyllum (Dec 21, 2022)

travellor said:


> That is interesting about the difference in diets.
> I noticed slow weight loss over a year didn't give the results I wanted, so I did the Newcastle diet at the end, even though I had already lost a lot of weight, it was the Newcastle Diet that did reverse my diabetes.


Yup! That is *the* thing about the 'Newcastle diet': a very low calorie diet causes the body to shed visceral fat preferentially, whereas a moderate reduction in calories doesn't have that effect.

Keep in mind that Prof Roy Taylor is based in the University of Newcastle's 'Magnetic Resonance Centre'. That's magnetic resonance as in MRI scans! He and his colleagues discovered not only that VLCDs can reverse Type 2 but also how this works, by scanning people's bodies so they could actually see what was going on with the fat in and around their livers and pancreases.

Here's the Centre's webpage about this, with links to some articles and slides: https://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal/#scientificinformation


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## travellor (Dec 21, 2022)

Spathiphyllum said:


> Yup! That is *the* thing about the 'Newcastle diet': a very low calorie diet causes the body to shed visceral fat preferentially, whereas a moderate reduction in calories doesn't have that effect.
> 
> Keep in mind that Prof Roy Taylor is based in the University of Newcastle's 'Magnetic Resonance Centre'. That's magnetic resonance as in MRI scans! He and his colleagues discovered not only that VLCDs can reverse Type 2 but also how this works, by scanning people's bodies so they could actually see what was going on with the fat in and around their livers and pancreases.
> 
> Here's the Centre's webpage about this, with links to some articles and slides: https://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal/#scientificinformation



I did it just when it first hit the news, so I did exactly as the first trial did.
Just the shakes, no changes as no one knew why it worked, just that it did.


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## Spathiphyllum (Dec 21, 2022)

travellor said:


> I did it just when it first hit the news, so I did exactly as the first trial did.
> Just the shakes, no changes as no one knew why it worked, just that it did.


And of course the fact that it works is the main thing! But knowing why helps a lot, especially for people (including some GPs) who are uncertain or sceptical.


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## travellor (Dec 21, 2022)

Spathiphyllum said:


> And of course the fact that it works is the main thing! But knowing why helps a lot, especially for people (including some GPs) who are uncertain or sceptical.



Yes, there has been a lot more research into diabetes reversal in the last eight years!


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## Eddy Edson (Dec 21, 2022)

Spathiphyllum said:


> Yup! That is *the* thing about the 'Newcastle diet': a very low calorie diet causes the body to shed visceral fat preferentially, whereas a moderate reduction in calories doesn't have that effect.


I'm interested in this - do you have a reference to a study or something?

Taylor has said that he doesn't think it matters how quickly you lose the weight, but some people will find it more practicable to quickly get it over & done with.

Personally, I old-schooled it, cutting 500 or so kcals per day and losing half a kilo a week over a few months to get to T2D reversal. That was partly because I didn't hear about the Newcastle stuff (from @travellor )  until I was pretty well reversed - but anyway, it worked.


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## travellor (Dec 21, 2022)

Eddy Edson said:


> I'm interested in this - do you have a reference to a study or something?
> 
> Taylor has said that he doesn't think it matters how quickly you lose the weight, but some people will find it more practicable to quickly get it over & done with.
> 
> Personally, I old-schooled it, cutting 500 or so kcals per day and losing half a kilo a week over a few months to get to T2D reversal. That was partly because I didn't hear about the Newcastle stuff (from @travellor )  until I was pretty well reversed - but anyway, it worked.



I remember Prof Taylor saying that at some point, but I thought it was in the context of "Losing weight be be helpful to  any type 2 diabetic that needs to" then it developed into the "thin outside, fat inside" as he did more research.

Hopefully he can do more research into this, as he's always said it's about a personal fat threshold, but some of the original subjects he studied were on the pre diet to bariatric surgery, and still would be classed as very obese when they reversed theirs.
That was the pointer to start his vlcd initially
So not entirely just weight loss maybe?
That was one of the drivers for me to try it anyway.
Did you diet until you lost enough weight to be comfortable, or until you got normal BG?
I looked unwell after I lost my final weight.


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## WalkdontRun (Dec 28, 2022)

I'm reading the Blood Sugar diet by Michael Mosley promoting the Newcastle diet, he did say it was possible to use "normal" food (still the 800cal limit) as I note he has a cooking book related to it. Did anyone do that and achieve the remission they wanted? Its not that I would not consider the alternative diet foods (shakes etc) or the time (2-3 mths hopefully) but that were they able to cut the weight without relying on them. Perhaps its the total diet change itself (and the easier foodstuff metabolism it requires as well). Naturally its harder to insure you are only hitting this cal limit and its the weight loss needed/speed of loss and how you are progressing to the goal that is the metric outcome. 
How were you all (who met remission and did the diet plan) in maintaining weight after (assuming you stopped having shakes as your regular meals!!). What weight gain meant you had to go back and try and reverse it just in case?


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## Kreator (Dec 29, 2022)

WalkdontRun said:


> I'm reading the Blood Sugar diet by Michael Mosley promoting the Newcastle diet, he did say it was possible to use "normal" food (still the 800cal limit) as I note he has a cooking book related to it. Did anyone do that and achieve the remission they wanted? Its not that I would not consider the alternative diet foods (shakes etc) or the time (2-3 mths hopefully) but that were they able to cut the weight without relying on them. Perhaps its the total diet change itself (and the easier foodstuff metabolism it requires as well). Naturally its harder to insure you are only hitting this cal limit and its the weight loss needed/speed of loss and how you are progressing to the goal that is the metric outcome.
> How were you all (who met remission and did the diet plan) in maintaining weight after (assuming you stopped having shakes as your regular meals!!). What weight gain meant you had to go back and try and reverse it just in case?


Strangely enough, before I started my shakes, I bought the Blood Sugar Diet book and managed to 'Control' my Diabetes to a point and had relatativly stable but still in T2D territory HbA1C's...DN Nurse was happy at the time, but I knew more was needed...

It was only on starting with shakes that I saw real improvements to my fasting BG after only a week or so...

The shakes were also a lot easier as I didnt have to think about what meals I was going to have - take a shake and it's done...

it also 'reset' my whole thinking around food, which meant starting to understand what food is, what do I relly enjoy eating, what's good for my body etc. etc.

Michael Mosely is really only taking Roy Taylor's work and putting his own spin on it..however, I can't knock Michael Mosely as I've taken a lot of his own recipes for myself moving forward...his work helps, but more in a maintanence kind of way if that makes sense?

I'd recommend Roy Taylor's own book 'Life Without Diabetes' to have an understanding of the mechanics


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## trophywench (Dec 29, 2022)

Well it was the fact that Dr Mosley was told he was TOFI, after that was talked about by Roy Taylor, that spurred him on - and once he found for himself that losing the visceral fat made him both feel and perform better - he published exactly how he sorted himself out.


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## Eddy Edson (Dec 30, 2022)

trophywench said:


> Well it was the fact that Dr Mosley was told he was TOFI, after that was talked about by Roy Taylor, that spurred him on - and once he found for himself that losing the visceral fat made him both feel and perform better - he published exactly how he sorted himself out.


Where he crosses over into grifter territory is when he implicitly starts to promote the idea that there is some kind of weight loss lifestyle approach which is intrinsically better than most others.

In fact, every lifestyle intervention looks like this:



Some people respond really well, some respond really badly, many hardly respond at all. Same is true for calorie counting, low carb, low fat, intermittent fasting, Weight Watchers (the best-studied & best-evidenced commercial program), Virta Health etc etc etc.

Claims for superiority of one approach over others almost invariably involve cherry picking useless anecdotes from the left-hand side responders and ignoring everybody else.

Mosely got to be one of the responders over on the left side of the chart with his approach. My circumstances were very similar to his, but I got to be one of the repsonders via old-school calorie counting.

Neither success means anything for how well the approaches would work for anybody else, and all the evidence suggests that on average, neither will work very well.

On the other hand, the new weight loss drugs - semaglutides, tirpezatide, potentially even better ones currently in testing - do an incredible, game-changing job of shifting most people over to the left in those charts.


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## Spathiphyllum (Dec 30, 2022)

Eddy Edson said:


> In fact, every lifestyle intervention looks like this: ...


On the Blood Sugar Diet website, Dr Mosley provides a link to evidence indicating that, the more rapid and greater your initial weight loss, the more likely you are to sustain long-term weight loss; and other studies have shown this too (for example, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7039735/ ).

So Dr Mosley is certainly not "cherry picking useless anecdotes".


Eddy Edson said:


> On the other hand, the new weight loss drugs - semaglutides, tirpezatide, potentially even better ones currently in testing - do an incredible, game-changing job ...


Just so no one is confused: (even) the new weight-loss drugs need to be taken *on top of* changes in diet and exercise, not instead of.

Tirzepatide looks to be the most promising. It was studied first for treatment of T2D-- in the strict sense of simply improving glycaemic control-- and seemed very effective; so it has now been authorised for use in the UK (as well as the EU and US) in treating T2D: https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/c...-marketing-authorisation-for-type-2-diabetes/ .

The initial T2D studies showed tirzepatide also helped to support and maintain weight loss. So the manufacturer has done a number of clinical trials specifically on its use for weight loss, for people with and without T2D, and the results look very promising. For the main study so far, the article giving the results is behind a paywall, but a summary is here: https://www.acc.org/latest-in-cardiology/clinical-trials/2022/08/04/15/32/surmount-1 . And there is an open-access article about the full set of studies on tirzepatide for weight loss: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oby.23612 .

All of these studies are using tirzepatide as an adjunct to 'lifestyle intervention'. First of all, you have to be willing to make significant changes to your diet and start exercising; *if* you are willing to do that, tirzepatide appears to help people to stick to it (by slowing the rate at which the stomach empties and reducing appetite).


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## Eddy Edson (Dec 30, 2022)

Spathiphyllum said:


> On the Blood Sugar Diet website, Dr Mosley provides a link to evidence indicating that, the more rapid and greater your initial weight loss, the more likely you are to sustain long-term weight loss; and other studies have shown this too (for example, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7039735/ ).


Just on that study, maybe I'm missing the point, but what it seems to say is that being an early responder was a good predictor of being a long-term responder. 

So that could generate a hypothesis for the waterfall chart I showed for a typical lifestyle intervention at the 3-year mark: the left-hand side responders at 3 years perhaps tended to be also responders at much earlier stages. 

I'm not sure that there's anything to be gleaned from this about whether one intervention is better than another.





Spathiphyllum said:


> Just so no one is confused: (even) the new weight-loss drugs need to be taken *on top of* changes in diet and exercise, not instead of.


I've seen this nice articulation: these meds allow lifestyle interventions to actually work well, whereas without them, they don't work very well at all, on average.  So they allow (many) more people to shift to the left versus that typical waterfall chart I showed. 

And as a result, they will allow many more T2D's to achieve remission/reversal. (Although I guess if you have to keep taking them you wouldn't fit the current definition for "remission" - dunno, don't really care.)

Tirpezatide/Mounjaro currently has FDA approval for T2D and is fast-tracked for possible obesity approval. I think people would be very surprised if ti didn't get it, and in the meantime it is being prescribed off-label for weight loss, to the extent that supply constraints allow.

Eric Topol has a useful overview piece from a few weeks ago: https://erictopol.substack.com/p/the-new-obesity-breakthrough-drugs

Just for weight loss, the results are huge:


With tirzepatide, in the most recent trial, average of 20%+ weight loss at 72 weeks at 10mg-15mg dose.

And Stephen Guyenet had an in-depth look at the development of these drugs last year: https://forum.diabetes.org.uk/boards/threads/guyenet-on-weight-loss-meds.95831/

The main issues at the moment are cost-effectiveness (borderline at best, at current prices, according to standard health economics analyses); supply issues; injections rather than pills; some gastro etc side-effects during ramp up.

Also, possible need to keep taking them forever, but that's basically the same for any chronic condition.


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