# Is Miliband on the Rocks ?



## HOBIE (Nov 6, 2014)

On news etc ?


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## Northerner (Nov 6, 2014)

The trouble is that politics these days is driven by personality. I'm pretty appalled at the way the media have poked fun at his physical appearance and done their best on every occasion to catch a picture of him looking a bit off guard, awkward or odd. He certainly won't be going as leader before the election.

All the leaders have negative popularity ratings, Miliband -55%, Clegg -54% and Cameron -14%. 

What are important are the policies each party intends to deliver, not what the party leader looks like eating a bacon sandwich! 

Personally, I think Cameron is beginning to crack. He's making promises he can't deliver on the EU payment and immigration, growth in the economy is grinding to a halt, house prices are slowing, tax receipts are down, the deficit is up...


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## HOBIE (Nov 6, 2014)

Thought you might say that Northy.  I have met Cameron & shook his hand. Heard what he had to say & was very impressed. Good for the country   Getting rid of the debt that someone else caused ?


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## Northerner (Nov 6, 2014)

HOBIE said:


> Thought you might say that Northy.  I have met Cameron & shook his hand. Heard what he had to say & was very impressed. Good for the country   Getting rid of the debt that someone else caused ?



Problem is that he hasn't been able to get rid of the debt, despite cutting things to the bone. They keep going on about how many jobs have been created, but they are mostly low-paid, self-employed or part time and so they aren't getting the tax revenues. 

You can probably guess that I wouldn't shake him by the hand - the throat, maybe!


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## HOBIE (Nov 6, 2014)

So it would have been much worse if mille had got in. They would have just kept spending ?  I don't know the exact answer but I know who I would trust for the country


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## Mrs Mad Ronin (Nov 6, 2014)

HOBIE said:


> So it would have been much worse if mille had got in. They would have just kept spending ?  I don't know the exact answer but I know who I would trust for the country



None of them 

Sorry, all of them are as bad as each other. You might think they are doing something nice but if you look in detail or much closer they are screwing us over somewhere else. All parties are the same. They each have a hidden agenda. It's for that reason i don't like any of them.

Plus i think i should run this country, i'd probably do a better job


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## HOBIE (Nov 6, 2014)

I would vote for you Mrs Mad  Honest !


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## Redkite (Nov 6, 2014)

If appearances mattered, none of them are lookers are they?!!  But it's not just policies, you do need to have the right personality to be a party leader, to be able to influence and lead people, and I don't think Ed Miliband has it in his character - he just seems weak.  Dare I say it needs somebody with a personality like Tony Blair.....


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## Aoife (Nov 6, 2014)

About sums him up really


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## ypauly (Nov 7, 2014)

Northerner said:


> The trouble is that politics these days is driven by personality. I'm pretty appalled at the way the media have poked fun at his physical appearance and done their best on every occasion to catch a picture of him looking a bit off guard, awkward or odd. He certainly won't be going as leader before the election.
> 
> All the leaders have negative popularity ratings, Miliband -55%, Clegg -54% and Cameron -14%.
> 
> ...


Actually Alan The image people poke fun at it was Millibands own creation, Remember before he became leader how he spoke funny I forget the medical term but he said it was him and he wouldn't change or that, then went for an operation, or that he wouldn't marry as he didn't believe in it and was happy living with his partner then suddenly changed.This list of his opportunism and image creation is quite long. 

He fell victim to the advisers that were trying to turn him into his brother when the only thing he had going for him was being himself, now he can't even do that.


Back on topic

Until the main parties realise what is driving people to UKIP they are all on the rocks. I have given it much though and concluded that you need to get down to people basic needs which are shelter and food, Labour have to their credit hi-lighted the rise in the use of food banks but have not had the balls to find out why (well openly admit it anyway) It is quite simple that so much of people income is being spent on shelter i.e rents and mortgages that finding themselves in difficulty when some out of the blue happens is far too easy.

They (labour) got into office in 1997 by critising conservative policies, one of the biggest noises they made was the sell off of houses, yet for 13 years they did nothing about it, they didn't build any council homes.

Now when they opened the floodgates of EU immigration they let in 250,000 people each year and that figure has not changed much for the last 8 years yet we are building less than 100,000 homes each year. This under the last and now this government has lead to a rise in property prices that has seen the average 3 bed new build family home cost 18 times minimum wage or 7-8 time average wage with the average house price still being 6 time average wage.

Rents are even worse


We could kill many birds with one stone and put people to work building homes for the masses but they in office don't want that as property prices may go down and apparently the words "negative equity" are far worse  than "homeless family" as one gets you kicked out of office.


The whole EU immigration thing that has lead to UKIPs popularity soaring is because people associate their own difficulties and hardships in finding affordable homes with the immigrants as "they" must be taking them all.


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## Mrs Mad Ronin (Nov 7, 2014)

HOBIE said:


> I would vote for you Mrs Mad  Honest !



Well in which case, i'm a winner. Sign me up now


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## KookyCat (Nov 7, 2014)

Politics is dirty stuff and sadly it is about an enigmatic leader. Ed milliband is no more a buffoon than Boris Johnson is he just needs to make it work for him and stop trying to over correct.  I think they're are all done after the election, Milliband, Cameron and Clegg.  Now UKIP is interesting, people aren't flocking to them for their policies, they're flocking to Nigel, he has cultivated an image of no nonsense straight talking, a marvellous correction in comparision to the current political Tom foolery, that man is enigmatic, very very clever and very very dangerous.  Not least because he's thrown himself into hot water to show just how willing he is to tell the truth regardless of how unpopular.  You've got to give it to him, he's really nailed the trustworthy straight talking.

Their media folk need to start using what few brain cells they have, and they all need to adjust to the fact that the folk they represent are not another species who can just be manipulated into voting left because they don't have two pennies to rub together or right because they want to keep a greater proportion of their two pennies.  People want genuine and trustworthy, Clegg might have had a chance at that if he hadn't shot himself in the head with that there alliance.  The other two haven't got a chance.  Making Milliband look like a buffoon won't sway voters but then it isn't intended to now is it?  It's intended to divide the Labour Party and if they fall for it well shame on them.  Cameron's attempt at shaking Europe is the most pitiful thing I've ever seen, if that had been Maggie they'd have been shaking in their boots, but they're not shaking. There's the problem in my eyes, they're all trying to emulate someone, and in all honesty they're just not good enough to pull it off.  

In the interest of openess I'm not right wing, and I'd be no more likely to vote UKIP than I would be to chew off my own finger, but I'm also not a Labour devotee at his moment in time.  I know a good leader when I see one though, Thatcher was brilliant, Blair was pretty damned good and Farage well, he's got the right stuff.  Cameron, Clegg and Milliband might be excellent politicians but you don't need a soldier at the front, you need a great big sociopathic leader, if you're going to manipulate people the trick is to do it when they can't see you coming, do it behind a mask of just enough truth, fire and brimstone to make it fly.  They're not dirty enough and never will be, Farage on the other hand, well I'm pretty sure he has dirty written through him like a stick of rock.

I am standing down from my soap box now, just need to look into the job description for Machiavellian leader, I might make that my next job application


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## Northerner (Nov 7, 2014)

You're right, today's leaders - except Farage - are not very inspiring, and give the impression that they are constantly reacting to whatever is the flavour of the day, making constant gaffes along the way. It's hard to know where they really stand on things, they are constantly shifting position in response to the media and poll results. Farage is in the fortunate position of being able to spout whatever crowd-pleasing guff he wants because he won't have to put anything he says into practice, certainly not this time around. I'm no fan of Miliband as a leader, and I think that the biggest disappointment for me has been Labour's abject failure to capitalise on the myriad areas where the Coalition has displayed utter incompetence. Instead, they seem to drift from one issue to another.

My overriding concern is what sort of a society I would get to live in should the Tories win a majority next May. They've already done a huge amount of damage, and unfettered would destroy what little patches of equality remain after the sweeping, macho policies they have already put in place. I don't accept that our economic situation is a Labour problem, there is no reason to suppose that things would have been any better under the Tories. I also don't accept that Gideon has a 'long term economic plan', he's just squeezed the maximum out of the least-able in society, and now intends to squeeze some more.

I'd love to vote Green, because they are probably the only party that offers a true left-wing vision that the majority of society would benefit from, not just the top 20% wealthiest.


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## KookyCat (Nov 7, 2014)

I'm a member of the Green Party, and their politics are probably most closely allied to my own.  Sadly they have a reputation that doesn't do their politics justice.  I think it's sad that the political leaders haven't yet realised that things have changed, the expenses scandal did them very much more harm than they realise. Even sadder if Labour fall again for attempts to divide them, which it looks very much like they're going to.  Quite apart from the fact that I believe every person deserves a decent standard of living, education and healthcare, I could never support a party who doesn't have the basic concept of a welfare state.  I've never been this close to a general election and been so undecided with what to do with my vote . Given that I am very definitely to the left, I'm unlikely to suddenly decide to shift to the right, but it's very depressing.


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## zuludog (Nov 7, 2014)

I think there bare two aspects to consider

Firstly, it is not enough for political leaders to be knowledgeable & merely competent, they also need to be strong characters who stand out from the rest, and inspire - in short, to be leaders
The Labour Party used to have such people; Harold Wilson, Tony Benn and others. I couldn't stand Maggie, but at least we all knew who she was. The current crop seem to have been selected for their blandness; no wonder Nigel is popular.

Secondly there is the political change.

I had always voted Labour for years. There was no-one happier than me when Tony Blair got in with that landslide victory in 1997. Yes! I thought. He's a young man, he's got ideas, he's got a massive majority, now we'll see something! But I was very disappointed - that's the polite answer.
The established politicians seem to have been taken by surprise that voter's attitudes have changed, and even more so that this change has come from the ground up. I feel that none of the three established parties represent me any more, and as you have probably guessed I now support UKIP  

I don't think many people would object too much to a trading agreement between half a dozen or so countries of roughly equal financial strength. What many people object to now is the monster that the EU has become. I don't mind trading with other countries but I object to being governed by them, and paying a high price for the privilege. Everyone's had a go at uniting Europe, from the Romans to the Nazis, and they've all failed, so why should the EU be any more successful?

Immigration is a major issue. No point repeating the arguments here, except to say that I'm less than happy with the current situation, and neither, it seems is an increasingly large number of people across the country. Does anyone think that Cameron would have taken action unless he was forced into it by the rise of UKIP? 

You probably won't find a political party that you agree with entirely, but I feel that UKIP is the only one that now speaks for me. And in that respect I don't think I'm alone by any means.


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## Andy HB (Nov 7, 2014)

Miliband is hopeless. Not because of the way he looks, but all because of the way he behaves and conducts himself. His policy statements seem to waft around following public opinion. He is most definitely not Prime Minister material and in the words of Francis Urquhart, he "has no bottom"!

A good Prime Minister is not one who people have to agree with all of the time, but one who commands respect (even grudging respect). One PM who, I think, embodied that was Maggie. I disliked her greatly at the end of her term, but still think that she was the best PM that we've had in my lifetime. Yes, she made some huge mistakes (not least trialling the Poll tax in Scotland ... that was a huge error and I think led directly to the collapse of the Tory vote there and the commensurate SNP rise).

Tony Blair? I don't know whether people remember, but in his first year or two he also gave the impression that he wafted around trying to curry public favour. It wasn't until after the Serbian problem that he suddenly turned into a war mongering, self-deluding, liar and manipulator.

As to the next election? Labour will probably win the most seats with the Tories close behind. The Lib Dems will be reduced to less than 5 seats and UKIP will do very well if the Tories don't get a good deal out of the EU regarding immigration and that outrageous 2bn euro demand. I don't think a coalition government will be possible again though because no two parties will command a sufficient majority (unless it's a Lab/Con government!!!).

Andy


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## Northerner (Nov 7, 2014)

I wouldn't personally commit my support to a party on the basis of one person (Farage) and one policy (leave Europe). Beyond that, they have no credible policies - or rather, the ones I have read are even further to the right than the Tories in looking to dismantle the health service and reward the rich at the expense of the less well off.

Immigration needs tightening up, but it's not the Europeans that are a problem, so trying to change the EU stance is a complete non-starter and more likely to do damage to the economy than enhance it. And the bill from the EU is something that should have been expected, although maybe not the scale - but surely someone in the Treasury would have worked out 'worst case scenarios' ages ago, and strategies for possibly contesting it, yet it seems to have come as a big surprise to the PM 

One way or another We're going to get either Miliband or Cameron in May. UKIP may have some influence, since the Lib Dems are dead in the water. I would much rather the Greens were to have input since they do actually have established policies, not just currying favour with whatever the villagers with the pitchforks are getting wound up about. However, the media is so consumed with the 'story' of UKIP (who only have an ex-Tory sitting MP, remember) that they don't even give the Greens a look-in 

[FRASIER]Doomed! We're all doomed![/FRASIER]


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## zuludog (Nov 7, 2014)

I think Andy HB has it about right

Onto the Greens. What's the current position over their TV appearance? I'm afraid I haven't been able to find out. 
I don't vote for them but I think it was unfair of the BBC not to include them, as well as being politically stupid.
That, and the fiasco over the sex abuse inquiry, is just the sort of thing that sets people against the Establishment and helps UKIP
What is even more disappointing is that even in the present political climate they have their heads so far up their....well, bottoms, that they still can't see it.


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## Northerner (Nov 7, 2014)

zuludog said:


> I think Andy HB has it about right
> 
> Onto the Greens. What's the current position over their TV appearance? I'm afraid I haven't been able to find out.
> I don't vote for them but I think it was unfair of the BBC not to include them, as well as being politically stupid.
> That, and the fiasco over the sex abuse inquiry, is just the sort of thing that sets people against the Establishment and helps UKIP



Apparently the BBC are to hold a public consultation about the debates:

http://greenparty.org.uk/news/2014/...c-consultation-on-election-debate-guidelines/


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## ypauly (Nov 7, 2014)

The EU has never passed an audit with regards to its book lol Lot and lot of lost cash.


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## Northerner (Nov 7, 2014)

ypauly said:


> The EU has never passed an audit with regards to its book lol Lot and lot of lost cash.



Isn't it about £5bn a year?


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## ypauly (Nov 7, 2014)

Northerner said:


> Isn't it about £5bn a year?



The problem is that we will probably never know as the books they produce can not be trusted.


I am all for a proper federal Europe but the one we have now that is build on trade agreements just is not working. Our politicians just pedal lies that help the UKIP juggernaut just keep on rolling instead of actually listening to the public, this sense of they know better must end.


I liked the bloke who was asked who could be Labours leader on question time last night, His reply Alan Johnson. 

Who could argue with common sense, a man who has lived in the real world and had a real job would be a good start to end the UKIP party it may even tempt me to cross the thin red line LOL


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## Northerner (Nov 7, 2014)

Hmm...I see that Gideon is trying to pull the wool over our eyes 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29956289


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## zuludog (Nov 7, 2014)

In The United States of America, if you commit fraud they send you to prison

In The European Union, if you commit fraud they make you a Member of Parliament


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## KookyCat (Nov 7, 2014)

Northerner said:


> Hmm...I see that Gideon is trying to pull the wool over our eyes
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29956289



Pantomime horses, there will be thigh slapping next...all together now "oh no you didn't!"


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## am64 (Nov 7, 2014)

I think we should all follow their lead ....any big bills to pay ? Refuse and sy george told you so .....


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## Northerner (Nov 8, 2014)

Well, the more I hear about this EU bill, the more it looks like total incompetence! The govt. must have know well in advance that such an 'adjustment' in contributions would be coming up - if not, why not? The impact of the rebate must also have been known well in advance - if not, why not? How did this come out of the blue? Why does Osborne think that we will be taken in by this claim of a 'reduction' when we are still going to be paying what we were due to pay anyway? The only concession appears to be the extra time given to make the payment. Why didn't the opposition point out the rebate element when the bill first came in?


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## KookyCat (Nov 8, 2014)

Northerner said:


> Well, the more I hear about this EU bill, the more it looks like total incompetence! The govt. must have know well in advance that such an 'adjustment' in contributions would be coming up - if not, why not? The impact of the rebate must also have been known well in advance - if not, why not? How did this come out of the blue? Why does Osborne think that we will be taken in by this claim of a 'reduction' when we are still going to be paying what we were due to pay anyway? The only concession appears to be the extra time given to make the payment. Why didn't the opposition point out the rebate element when the bill first came in?



The opposition were too busy defending their leader against alleged ousting...there seems to be a general consensus that everyone knew it was coming and knew about the rebate, so why didn't they just celebrate the extra time they won, these silly manipulative tactics make them all look like the court jester.


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## Northerner (Nov 8, 2014)

KookyCat said:


> The opposition were too busy defending their leader against alleged ousting...there seems to be a general consensus that everyone knew it was coming and knew about the rebate, so why didn't they just celebrate the extra time they won, these silly manipulative tactics make them all look like the court jester.



They are also all treating the public as idiots and insulting our intelligence, whilst exposing their own detachment from reality, so caught up in their need for evasion and spin


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## FM001 (Nov 8, 2014)

It isn't just about the way Miliband looks, its the way he comes across to the general public.  Ed is intelligent make no mistake, but his train of thought isn't up to speed and he dithers when under pressure, he is not like Blair & Clinton where they could hold the audience and their speech would flow, that is why people lack confidence in Ed and people like him as political leaders.

Labours best bet would be to get rid of him now before it gets too close to the general election, Andy Burnham would make a good leader and is liked by the public and colleagues alike.


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## HOBIE (Nov 8, 2014)

I know that face somewhere 





Aoife said:


> About sums him up really


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## ypauly (Nov 8, 2014)

Northerner said:


> They are also all treating the public as idiots and insulting our intelligence, whilst exposing their own detachment from reality, so caught up in their need for evasion and spin


I find it strange that the coalition are getting blamed for a mess they did not create. These bills are old and the mechanism to pay them was signed up for by Labour against the will of the public and in denial of a then promised referendum they they reneged on.

The situation I feel is being blown up to assist in the anti-EU feeling as the newly promised referendum should get the conservatives plenty of extra votes, or at leats they thing that. So what is a short term bit of bad PR they will hope in turns into long term votes. Every single move they make is now done with the up coming election in mind.


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## ypauly (Nov 8, 2014)

toby said:


> Labours best bet would be to get rid of him now before it gets too close to the general election, Andy Burnham would make a good leader and is liked by the public and colleagues alike.








The Andy Burnham that presided over mid staffs?
The Andy Burnham that promised to end hospital parking charges then reneged on that promise?
The Andy Burnham that promised to cut the NHS budget by £20 Billion?


Yeah we love him lol, he could be as good for the conservatives as Red Ed 



The only person that could gt the popular vote for me would be Alan Johnson, he is for me the only one that could turn things around for labour ad take their votes back off UKIP.


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## Bloden (Nov 8, 2014)

You should see the Spanish lot! The President, Rajoy, looks like a tramp. And his skanky dirty-old-man beard seems to be catching on! 

Milliband - great face for radio.


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## Northerner (Nov 8, 2014)

ypauly said:


> I find it strange that the coalition are getting blamed for a mess they did not create. These bills are old and the mechanism to pay them was signed up for by Labour against the will of the public and in denial of a then promised referendum they they reneged on.



The coalition are being blamed for being either completely inept in not knowing the bill was coming (given, as you say, that the bills are old and the mechanism was signed up for long, long ago - whatever the circumstances), or being completely duplicitous in creating a crisis where no crisis existed (beyond the fact that the EU are expecting an extra £850m from us). They are one or the other, and both make them look bad.


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## ypauly (Nov 8, 2014)

Northerner said:


> The coalition are being blamed for being either completely inept in not knowing the bill was coming (given, as you say, that the bills are old and the mechanism was signed up for long, long ago - whatever the circumstances), or being completely duplicitous in creating a crisis where no crisis existed (beyond the fact that the EU are expecting an extra £850m from us). They are one or the other, and both make them look bad.


You think they didn't know?


I don't, I think they wanted to highlight the EU dangers and if they did know thye probably didn't know it would be so big after all if we did so well in 2005 why did Labour borrow so much that year? Why were they still raiding pension funds? Why were so many large companies moving east?


I think it is more than likely playing out exactly the way they want it too, they aren't daft, They have obviously been paying these adjustments for the last 4 years as we have not heard of them.


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## Northerner (Nov 8, 2014)

ypauly said:


> You think they didn't know?
> 
> 
> I don't, I think they wanted to highlight the EU dangers and if they did know thye probably didn't know it would be so big after all if we did so well in 2005 why did Labour borrow so much that year? Why were they still raiding pension funds? Why were so many large companies moving east?
> ...



No, what I'm saying is that, IF they didn't know then that was bad. But it they did know and have engineered this fuss, then they are playing us for idiots. We may 'only' have to pay £850, next year, but we lose £850m the following year - no 'victory' at all 

As I understand it, this isn't a yearly 'adjustment' it's calculated on the changes since 1995.


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## ypauly (Nov 8, 2014)

Northerner said:


> No, what I'm saying is that, IF they didn't know then that was bad. But it they did know and have engineered this fuss, then they are playing us for idiots. We may 'only' have to pay £850, next year, but we lose £850m the following year - no 'victory' at all
> 
> As I understand it, this isn't a yearly 'adjustment' it's calculated on the changes since 1995.



Oh, I read 2005 as an annual one.


Just went off for a read and discovered In amongst all the heat and light, is the gem that is that the European Parliament increased their spending / budget by £5.4 billion. Despite all the tough talking about the need for countries to follow austerity measures.

£5.4 billion ! 

I do find that what is said and what is done look quite different. 

You can still hear Conservative ministers crowing that DC used the veto to vote down an increase in EU spending... didn't actually work though did it. 

It also looks like a bill that has been ignored for far too long that grew out of proportion.


UKIP will dine on this for several weeks.


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## trophywench (Nov 8, 2014)

Well to be fair, Call Me Dave was reported to have actually said that - how come the EU hasn't had to tighten its belt when everyone else has had to ?


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## ypauly (Nov 13, 2014)

Farage has tweeted a response to Miiliband

https://twitter.com/UKIP/status/532900479265931264



Why does Milliband keep making a fool of himself?




They wont stop UKIP until they wake up and realise that it isn't immigration that is winning him points but the net results of immigration, we live in possibly the most open and tolerant society on the planet but if we can't get a doctors appointment an affordable home or a job that does pays above minimum wage or even this miraculous "living wage" that wouldn't support many, people will find the source of the problem. Adding 250,000 people to our nation every year is the source in the eyes of many.


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## Northerner (Nov 13, 2014)

ypauly said:


> Farage has tweeted a response to Miiliband
> 
> https://twitter.com/UKIP/status/532900479265931264
> 
> ...



Farage has the gift of the gab and knows his strengths lie in his ability to say what people want to hear, whether it's gibberish or not - remember how he demolished Cleggy? It's easy to please people when you have no chance of exposure to reality


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## ypauly (Nov 13, 2014)

Northerner said:


> Farage has the gift of the gab and knows his strengths lie in his ability to say what people want to hear, whether it's gibberish or not - remember how he demolished Cleggy? It's easy to please people when you have no chance of exposure to reality



You can see that, I can see that so why does Milliband open himself up to such ridicule? He must be able to see what the rest of us see surely?


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## Northerner (Nov 13, 2014)

ypauly said:


> You can see that, I can see that so why does Milliband open himself up to such ridicule? He must be able to see what the rest of us see surely?



I like the fact that Farage has been called on his views on privatising the NHS, from 2012 - his defence is that 'policies change', but he's said that about virtually every mad policy UKIP have ever held apart from leaving the EU - remember how he rubbished their own manifesto? 

I'm definitely moving in the direction of the Greens...


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## ypauly (Nov 13, 2014)

Northerner said:


> I like the fact that Farage has been called on his views on privatising the NHS, from 2012 - his defence is that 'policies change', but he's said that about virtually every mad policy UKIP have ever held apart from leaving the EU - remember how he rubbished their own manifesto?
> 
> I'm definitely moving in the direction of the Greens...



Any right minded clear thinking person could take UKIP to pieces, hell even I could do it, so why don't they?

I'm extremely disappointed at Dave for how he is letting the conservatives be bullied by Farage in such a clueless way, but I laugh at Ed as he is even worse and he is supposed to be one of those intelligent types.


At least Clegg had the balls to try, even though he messed it up.


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## Andy HB (Nov 13, 2014)

Northerner said:


> I like the fact that Farage has been called on his views on privatising the NHS, from 2012 - his defence is that 'policies change', but he's said that about virtually every mad policy UKIP have ever held apart from leaving the EU - remember how he rubbished their own manifesto?
> 
> I'm definitely moving in the direction of the Greens...



On balance, I may be with you! I had a quick look at their website the other day and wouldn't disagree with most things.

One thing I didn't like was a quota for women on company boards. I dislike any form of positive discrimination, because that in itself is discriminatory. But, hey, we're not going to agree with everything a party has in its manifesto!

Andy


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## Northerner (Nov 13, 2014)

ypauly said:


> Any right minded clear thinking person could take UKIP to pieces, hell even I could do it, so why don't they?
> 
> I'm extremely disappointed at Dave for how he is letting the conservatives be bullied by Farage in such a clueless way, but I laugh at Ed as he is even worse and he is supposed to be one of those intelligent types.



You're right, this is one of the things that has frustrated me, about Labour in particular. All parties have gifted them so many things that they could really go to town on, but you hardly hear anything, there might be something for a day or two, then it fizzles out. The Tories are so split on Europe that Cameron doesn't know which way to turn. I'm also annoyed the way that EU immigration has been taken up to be this huge negative things when it simply isn't the case.

I would actually like to see a debate between UKIP and the Greens, because I don't think UKIP would know how to handle them


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## ypauly (Nov 13, 2014)

Northerner said:


> You're right, this is one of the things that has frustrated me, about Labour in particular. All parties have gifted them so many things that they could really go to town on, but you hardly hear anything, there might be something for a day or two, then it fizzles out. The Tories are so split on Europe that Cameron doesn't know which way to turn. I'm also annoyed the way that EU immigration has been taken up to be this huge negative things when it simply isn't the case.
> 
> I would actually like to see a debate between UKIP and the Greens, because I don't think UKIP would know how to handle them



The whole euro thing needs to be resolved as it's not just the conservatives that are split, it's just they are the ones doing it publicly.

But while Farage has so much ammo from it, like Ed cost of living crisis and how employers should pay a living wage yet at the same time giving employers access to what seems like an unlimited amount of cheap labour, Ed can't win.

All of Ed flagship policies whether housing, cost of living or even the NHS it is Europe causing the problem, Farage can't miss as there are too many open goals. To Daves credit we could get a referendum, I think Ed needs to re-think his no referendum stance to stand any hope of defeating Farage.


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## trophywench (Nov 14, 2014)

I would like someone to sit down and tell me, without ANY bias one way or t'other - the facts of the EU.  What are the pros and what are the cons - so then I could decide whether it's in or out that ought to be best for us.

I did indeed Vote Yes for the EEC - a trade agreement between X number of nations seemed like a damn good idea to me.  It still does.

It's also a good idea to have the same safety standards for stuff, a European Kitemark and similar driving rules and laws, ditto disability discrimination. 

But being more and more governed by Europe?  Hang on, when did you ask me that ?

Lately there's news that this or that Trade body says we've got to get out because, then the Chairman of the CBI apparently saying we gotta stay in.  For what reasons are they each convinced, if I don't know that, how can I assess which one is correct?

If nobody tells me that soon, because I won't be able to vote for which party wants to do whatever I decide is the right thing - along with who is going to make least mess of the NHS and other sundry matters - how can I vote in the General Election?


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## ypauly (Nov 14, 2014)

trophywench said:


> I would like someone to sit down and tell me, without ANY bias one way or t'other - the facts of the EU.  What are the pros and what are the cons - so then I could decide whether it's in or out that ought to be best for us.
> 
> I did indeed Vote Yes for the EEC - a trade agreement between X number of nations seemed like a damn good idea to me.  It still does.
> 
> ...


the biggest problem that I see is the massive unfairness. Countries have been awarded different vetos and opt outs for instance we didn't have the currency.

That gives us a big advantage in bad times as we can just print more. There are of course other things with different nations but the main part is social standards.

If for instance Birmingham council passed a by law making employers pay £10 an hour minimum there would be a lot of you very good and very nice Coventry folk looking to move here and take advantage, so it is far from a fair playing field.

As it stands our minimum wage is very attractive to those further east but not attractive enough for us natives and this skews the market somewhat.

It also creates other disadvantages like making housing demand out strip supply so prices just keep going up and up and up, which is not fair on us natives that don't have affordable homes whether renting or buying but leaves masses of empty properties in eastern states that most homeless would love.


I could go on for hours but in thee short I decided we have two options

A. a federal Europe where everbody plays the same game by the same rules with no exceptions

B. leave the European project all together.


I prefer the former as we get good trade out of that deal and it wont hurt us to help the polish economies succeed rather than just taking their best and brightest young talent.


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## HOBIE (Nov 14, 2014)

I am pleased Camron has stopped these people who have left to do things in Syria etc & expect to just come back into this country. I really feel sorry for the family of that Soldier who was killed in London.  Those people that did such a thing should not be in this country


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## am64 (Nov 14, 2014)

Ypauly could you explain to me what is a'native'


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## bill hopkinson (Nov 14, 2014)

We need something like the EEC for prosperity. Trouble is there are so many things wrong with the EEC we have got.
Reform is the best option.
On that basis the only person who has got it wrong is Farage.
Prosperity comes from free trading and movement.
Like, my street has many young Polish couples. They work hard and pay more into the economy than they take out. Thank you Polish couples for providing the money for my State pension.
Like local businesses are exporting and making money, like local supermarkets bring things in from the cheapest place in Europe so we save money. Boris warns Downing St that leaving Europe would leave London, the place that puts the most money into the economy, bankrupt.
Is Millipede on the rocks? It is only my view but I think the whole Labour movement is between times. They tired of the of the Blair reinvention of Labour, but what Labour can be is not yet a crusade. There are some times when you can be a leader without charisma, but now is not one of yhem.


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## ypauly (Nov 15, 2014)

am64 said:


> Ypauly could you explain to me what is a'native'



From an online dictionary
belonging by birth to a people regarded as indigenous to a certain place



Like I am a native Brummy ( person born or belonging to Birmingham).


The term national would also have fit for the context I used it if I were referencing a whole nation and not just my city but  as I wanted to highlight the unfairness to the people already here us native brummies by the pressure posed from those outside and for the hypothetical example I was using that would mean people from Coventry.


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## ypauly (Nov 15, 2014)

bill hopkinson said:


> We need something like the EEC for prosperity. Trouble is there are so many things wrong with the EEC we have got.
> Reform is the best option.
> On that basis the only person who has got it wrong is Farage.
> Prosperity comes from free trading and movement.
> ...


I would completely agree Europe needs reform

I look at it like the sales, people naturally rush for something good or a bargain and we were not prepared for the rush from the east. EU rules should have made or created a level playing field but they didn't.


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