# Carillion  goes into liquidation.



## Hepato-pancreato (Jan 15, 2018)

What’s wrong with this country. Our new £400,000,000 or how ever much it has or is going to cost. Hospital. Which should’ve opened in July 2017. Where has all the money gone. Round up all big bosses thoroughly investigate and remove their assets like they do drug dealers. Greed and corruption to blame. About time this government or a new one got tough. Oh by the way a new hospital for Liverpool with 100 fewer beds than the hospital it is replacing. Genius nhs struggling build new hospital with more beds not rocket science is it ?


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## grovesy (Jan 15, 2018)

New hospitals with less beds has been on for decades. 
The thinking was shorter stays and day surgery would reduce the need.


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## trophywench (Jan 15, 2018)

I'm more worried about all the employees and sub contractors than one hospital.


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## grovesy (Jan 15, 2018)

I have just read on two separate newspaper sites one saying it provided services to my local prison and the other say it provided multiple services to a hospital in the north.
I also saw last week that the viability of this company was questioned in Parliment.


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## mikeyB (Jan 15, 2018)

Well, instead of government paying Carillion to do all this stuff, why don’t government just pay folk to do the stuff. Miss out the middleman (and the inept management) and save some money. When they did that with the east coast mainline after the previous franchise collapse it made a profit. So they franchised it out again, that franchise collapses and still they can’t learn the lesson. Everyone’s an idiot. 

Recently the new Firth of Forth crossing bridge had to be closed a month after it opened for resurfacing. Who paid for that? The folk who built it. The UK government doesn’t seem to have heard of penalty clauses.


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## grovesy (Jan 15, 2018)

Just watching the Commons statement on it , they are also involved with PFI contracts as Well.


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## Vince_UK (Jan 16, 2018)

Fasten your seatbelts folks, this is the start of many yet to come over the next 2 years or so.
It will only get worse.
Brexit is not going to make it easier either, in fact quite the opposite.
I am not a believer in nationalisation having seen the damage done and the gross inefficiency demonstrated during the 1970's and the grip the unions had on this country.
However,I do subscribe to the belief that certain national services such as the NHS, Transport, Education, the very nervous system of our society, should be controlled and funded centrally. However, nothing is a bottomless financial pit.
The only issue I have with centralised control is the total lack of skills and business experience and acumen of the people who traditionally have had responsibility for running these organisations. They become mired in bureaucracy and petty infighting.
Civil servants and politicians are abject failures at this.
Woeful.


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## Bloden (Jan 16, 2018)

Carillion? My brain’s saying Marillion and playing “Kayleigh” on a loop. LOL

On a more serious note, I really feel for all the people that have lost their jobs from one day to the next. Shocking.


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## Hepato-pancreato (Jan 17, 2018)

The problem is about people losing jobs when it’s on such a large scale people feel sorry why.? People losing their jobs everyday from little firms crushed by these big firms no one bats an eyelid. Nhs is struggling This hospital not built how much money has been spent (wasted) already.


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## Vince_UK (Jan 17, 2018)

This is going to get very nasty indeed.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jan/16/carillion-subcontractors-laying-off-staff-collapse


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## trophywench (Jan 17, 2018)

I look forward to them investigating the directors ........ which doesn't solve paying the employees and subbies mortgages - and it's them especially, in combination with the direct ones, I feel for.

eg A company who make large commercial Xmas lights supplied some via Carrilion, for Birmingham for Xmas 2017, contract worth £17,500 so 'small beer' in the overall scheme of things - but could mean two people lose their jobs there.  Even if Brum haven't paid C yet - subbie is most unlikely to get even 1p of it.


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## Lucy Honeychurch (Jan 17, 2018)

In Oxford firefighters have been put on standby to deliver emergency school dinners as Carrilion had the contract for 90 schools in the area! Bonkers


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## Hepato-pancreato (Jan 17, 2018)

When the firefighters go on strike. The army will have to do it.


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## grovesy (Jan 17, 2018)

Hepato-pancreato said:


> When the firefighters go on strike. The army will have to do it.


What army?


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## Hepato-pancreato (Jan 17, 2018)

The army that covers for firefighters with the green goddesses.


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## grovesy (Jan 17, 2018)

Sorry but we have very little army left was my thinking !
Also just seen the Directors will not be getting their money!


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## Lucy Honeychurch (Jan 17, 2018)

Hepato-pancreato said:


> The army that covers for firefighters with the green goddesses.



I remember that happening in 1990 when ambulance personnel went on strike.


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## ypauly (Jan 17, 2018)

It is one of those companies that makes me wonder how? how do they win so many contracts, along with G4s and a couple of others, they appear to be "contract winners" on a professional level. I doesn't matter what area their main expertise is they still seem to win, and I wonder whose palms have been greased for the last 30 years? and why so many contract are won by such a few big companies?


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## Robin (Jan 17, 2018)

Lucy Honeychurch said:


> In Oxford firefighters have been put on standby to deliver emergency school dinners as Carrilion had the contract for 90 schools in the area! Bonkers


It didn't happen, I think it was just headline grabbing. What actually happened was much less newsworthy, Oxfordshire Council took over the contracts, all the staff reported for work as normal, and everything carried on as usual.


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## Lucy Honeychurch (Jan 17, 2018)

Robin said:


> It didn't happen, I think it was just headline grabbing. What actually happened was much less newsworthy, Oxfordshire Council took over the contracts, all the staff reported for work as normal, and everything carried on as usual.




A far more sensible solution.


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## grovesy (Jan 17, 2018)

I read somewhere that Serco  may take over some of the contracts. It is another company with fingers in lots of pies.


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## Vince_UK (Jan 17, 2018)

grovesy said:


> I read somewhere that Serco  may take over some of the contracts. It is another company with fingers in lots of pies.


Yes I can see that happening. Watch this space. The rumour mongering will have a negative effect on  any linked companies also. Fake news will spread like wild fire as we are already starting to witness.


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## Mark Parrott (Jan 17, 2018)

ypauly said:


> It is one of those companies that makes me wonder how? how do they win so many contracts, along with G4s and a couple of others, they appear to be "contract winners" on a professional level. I doesn't matter what area their main expertise is they still seem to win, and I wonder whose palms have been greased for the last 30 years? and why so many contract are won by such a few big companies?


They donated money to the government on a regular basis.  That's how they got the contracts.  Allegedly.


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## Vince_UK (Jan 18, 2018)

What a surprise
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...oot-200bn-bill-for-pfi-contracts-audit-office


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## Vince_UK (Jan 18, 2018)

Mark Parrott said:


> They donated money to the government on a regular basis.  That's how they got the contracts.  Allegedly.


The "Old  Boys" network and connections plus as you say donations.


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## Northerner (Jan 18, 2018)

Vince_UK said:


> The "Old  Boys" network and connections plus as you say donations.


I've always found it strange that Conservatives always complain about the 'power of the unions' because they are big donors to Labour via small donations from 6.5m members, yet they are supported by a small group of super-rich individuals making huge donations, usually in order to influence policy


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## Ralph-YK (Jan 18, 2018)

We voted The Government in (well I didn't, it's not my government), and The Government signed the contracts. Both with Carillion and the partnerships with the private companies (renting properties?) in the other story.  Having made the deal you've to live with the contract.
We really need less political decisions and more properly drafted briefs/contracts with well thought out, good, goals.

Action plans and targets are the important thing. On EPP they talk of SMART targets.  It's a known thing.
[edited for typing errors]


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## trophywench (Jan 18, 2018)

A question please - when they list the types of contacts Carrilion was/are into 0 the NHS ones include 'Managing 200 operating theatres and 18,900 beds'

What on earth is 'managing' in this context?


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## Northerner (Jan 18, 2018)

trophywench said:


> A question please - when they list the types of contacts Carrilion was/are into 0 the NHS ones include 'Managing 200 operating theatres and 18,900 beds'
> 
> What on earth is 'managing' in this context?


Is it perhaps a maintenance contract? Cleaning and stocking/supplying them?


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## Vince_UK (Jan 18, 2018)

Northerner said:


> Is it perhaps a maintenance contract? Cleaning and stocking/supplying them?


Yup exactly what it is


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## trophywench (Jan 18, 2018)

The mind boggles again.  Beds not so much - a warehouse full of beds, a hospital have 6 knackered ones, please supply 6 new beds to wherever.  Same as theatre beds, whiteboards etc, just a warehouse and a van.  Hardly what I'd call management thereof though.  Or why it needs a private company to do it - the NHS could rent a warehouse, etc.


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## Lucy Honeychurch (Jan 18, 2018)

trophywench said:


> The mind boggles again.  Beds not so much - a warehouse full of beds, a hospital have 6 knackered ones, please supply 6 new beds to wherever.  Same as theatre beds, whiteboards etc, just a warehouse and a van.  Hardly what I'd call management thereof though.  Or why it needs a private company to do it - the NHS could rent a warehouse, etc.




Unfortunately they proftit from that (which is the point of public money going into private hands, then back into public ownership, until sold on to another firm etc, etc, add infinitum)


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## Northerner (Jan 18, 2018)

I found the following article very informative about the whole 'reducing risk by passing it to the private sector' argument:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/16/pfi-bosses-carillion-money-george-monbiot


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## Hepato-pancreato (Jan 19, 2018)

Horror stories from Liverpool echo about the building of the new royal are utterly shocking. Reports of police raiding lockers for drugs. Sub contractors (who were unpaid by Carillion) Returning at night to smash sinks and toilets . Rooms were workers have s*** in. A concrete ladel being cracked.( automatic replacement if you are competent) covered over not replaced. Polish,Latvian etc.. builders. (Not trade qualified just labourers really) doing building work. Or having a good go. I could go on. All this I have read in the Liverpool echo.


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## Vince_UK (Jan 19, 2018)

I have been a staunch advocate of outsourcing for years however, there are some basic principles and rules you must apply when considering what to outsource and where to place that workload. The benfits are numerous, risk minimisation to your organisatio in terms of labour and capital investment, the ability to turn off supplies or volume if your own market falls and demand lessens.
If i can take £3M out of my running and overhead costs annually, which I have done, then there is no argument.
You can ultimatley control your outsourcing partners without the need to invest purely through volume and percentage of spend, therefore you can dictate and control your costs. IT Services are an excellent example and usually one of the first services to be given to a specialised service provider. This is followed closely by janitorial and similar services.
Why have the costs of employing your own cleaners for example when you can use the services of a dedicated company to provde that service for you without all the labour costs and problems that can arise by employing them yourself. You can then go out to the competitive market for costs comparisons and reductions.
Business is about controlling and reducing costs and making sure your staff have an employment future and skill retention so we can compete globally. Businesses are not charitable organisations.
If you have 40 or 50% of turnover with a subcontractor then that gives you a lot of leverage.
Issues arise when that leverage is abused.
You never outsource your techinical knowledge or core competencies.
Apple are a prime example of this and this is how the Chinese ecomony grew exponentially and is still growing at 6.7% annually.
The issue in Liverpool is not outsourcing per se but bad and inefficient management and the lack of firm peronnel policies at recruitment. Management of outsourcing partners is vital for it to work efficiently
We also have to ask ourswelves why Latvian and Polish workers for example here are successsful and it isn't all about costs and salaries.
However, outsourcing our NHS, transport and our country's core competencies, other than basic services, it nothing short of utter follly.
Adam Smith and Milton Friedmann supported Free Market Economies but here it has been taken to literally and to far.


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## trophywench (Jan 19, 2018)

In principle, it is of course 'why keep a dog and bark yourself?' which nobody can argue with successfully.

Your final sentence contains the pitfalls in a nutshell.


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## Vince_UK (Jan 19, 2018)

trophywench said:


> In principle, it is of course 'why keep a dog and bark yourself?' which nobody can argue with successfully.
> 
> Your final sentence contains the pitfalls in a nutshell.


And that what happens when amateurs get involved. People who think they know everything but in reality know Sweet %£**@% all, just having read the theory somewhere at sometime.


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