# Huge Fire in london 27 story high tower block ablaze



## Donald

Tragic event 


http://link.e.independent.co.uk/cli...4MTYuaHRtbA/54d392bd3b35d0b6118b8836B3f5b2a32


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## mikeyB

When the fire is out completely, I dread to think how many bodies large and small will be found. The construction of the building will be under severe scrutiny- I can't remember any other tower block fire taking off like that. It was a death trap.


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## KateR

Just like The Towering Inferno.


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## Amigo

It's just horrendous and I think they'll be some very nervous people today because residents are describing the serious concerns they've been trying to address, without success, over a long period with the managing company.

I also dread to think of the final death toll and serious injuries from this. London are having a tough time at the moment


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## Amigo

I see the Tories are sparing us the details of their dreary deal with the DUP today in respect for the people caught up in this terrible tragedy.


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## trophywench

I read that the place only had ONE entrance/exit.  Easier to keep secure maybe - BUT .........

Just awful.


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## Ljc

Tragic.


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## Copepod

For now, just thoughts with those affected. Hundreds will need to be rehoused, and some will end up a long way from family, friends, jobs and education. Many injured and bereaved.
Fire deaths should not be happening in this century. For now, priorities are to deal with immediate effects, but ultimately, the report will need to consider many aspects.


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## Wirrallass

My heartfelt thoughts go to the brave mother who decided to drop her baby to safety to people waiting on the ground to catch him/her. As a mother myself her action must have been truly heart rendering in case her baby should not have survived the fall.


.


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## Steff

Agree wholeheartedly Wirral must of been so so scared, once again listening to the brave residents pulling together melts my heart.


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## Donald

I Think once everything is done there will be only one option and that is to demolish the whole Buliding


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## Hazel

Having lived in a tower block (9th floor) for 9 years - Jesus it it scary, just thinking about it.

God help everyone involved


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## Lucy Honeychurch

Absolutely horrendous


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## HOBIE

I work in lots of different buildings & fit gas shut off valves to buildings (as soon as fire alarm goes off, they shut gas off). That was not made out of wood so why was fire in so many places. Was the carpets flammable ? No doubt we will find out but so sad.


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## New-journey

My heart is so full with gratitude to the firefighters, to the people who have taken hot food and emergency provisions, to everyone who is helping and such sadness for the loss and grief many are feeling. They are still needing volunteers to help but not food for now. Such generosity.


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## Stitch147

My heart goes out to all involved in this tragic incident. We are having collections at work for the next couple of days. There is a hug pile of donated items in my office, clothing, bedding, toiletries, food and loads of other stuff. These people have lost everything that they own. We cant replace the personal items but hopefully what we can give will help them in some way. It was quite sad seeing the stuff all piled up and very humbling to see.


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## mikeyB

In the aftermath of this tragedy it was good to see the mayor, Sadiq Khan, going to meet the survivors, notwithstanding he he was heckled. Jeremy Corbyn, a London MP, spoke to survivors and offered such words of comfort as you could in such circumstances. Theresa May, our Prime Minister, went there, had a private meeting with the rescue services, and left. In that moment, she has lost any respect she might have had. It is a staggering misjudgement.


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## Amigo

mikeyB said:


> In the aftermath of this tragedy it was good to see the mayor, Sadiq Khan, going to meet the survivors, notwithstanding he he was heckled. Jeremy Corbyn, a London MP, spoke to survivors and offered such words of comfort as you could in such circumstances. Theresa May, our Prime Minister, went there, had a private meeting with the rescue services, and left. In that moment, she has lost any respect she might have had. It is a staggering misjudgement.



I agree, she really isn't a people person at all. I don't think we've begun to uncover the sheer scale and numbers of deaths yet. There's so many people missing that I fear we may be looking at triple figures. 
This cladding isn't allowed in many other countries and yet it was used here in a building with such dire exit routes.


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## mikeyB

Yup. Fireproof cladding would have cost an extra £5000 apparently.


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## mikeyB

Now the Queen and Prince Philip are visiting. She knows her duty, always has, and the folk in the area will appreciate it. It certainly puts Mrs May's visit into stark relief.


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## grovesy

mikeyB said:


> Now the Queen and Prince Philip are visiting. She knows her duty, always has, and the folk in the area will appreciate it. It certainly puts Mrs May's visit into stark relief.


It is not Prince Phillip it is the Duke of Cambridge.


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## mikeyB

Oops sorry, everyone,  misread the newsfeed. Comment still applies, though.


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## Lucy Honeychurch

mikeyB said:


> In the aftermath of this tragedy it was good to see the mayor, Sadiq Khan, going to meet the survivors, notwithstanding he he was heckled. Jeremy Corbyn, a London MP, spoke to survivors and offered such words of comfort as you could in such circumstances. Theresa May, our Prime Minister, went there, had a private meeting with the rescue services, and left. In that moment, she has lost any respect she might have had. It is a staggering misjudgement.




Agree, absolutely disgraceful woman.


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## zuludog

I suppose it depends on your point of view

I thought TM's visit was calm and reasonable, but the thinly disguised attempts by Corbyn to gain political capital from this disaster were sickening


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## Amigo

Theresa May has made a private visit to victims in hospital.


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## mikeyB

I think I will carry a card in case anything happens to me to say that I don't want any politician coming to visit me, thankyou very much. TM hasn't an ounce of empathy in her body. It's not entirely her fault, I think having children changes your mindset.


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## HOBIE

Soon as they started to blame the cladding I thought about "British Standards"   The Kite Mark !   Plastic cladding was prob made out of some recycled tyres ?  Someone having a good idea  in god knows where ?


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## HOBIE

Pleased we out of Europe.


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## robert@fm

Death toll now 30 confirmed, probably more to come 

The Fire Brigade are also saying that some bodies may never be identified.

One thing that upset me is that when American news channel CNN ran this story, most Americans  who commented on it were screaming "TERRORISM!".  I sarcastically asked them if they also reckon that the _Titanic_ was a terrorist attack.  (And I know from personal experience that their simplistic "Moslem == terrorist" attitude is wrong, because my carer is a Moslem and one of the best people I've ever known.)

Yet more evidence that Europeans are far more intelligent than Americans.


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## robert@fm

Disaster could have been avoided by spending just £5,000 more. 

Once more, you get what you pay for. The "cheap" option has cost untold millions, plus several lives on which no monetary value can be placed.


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## Steff

We are off to help out tomorrow OH grew up there and feels very sad and compelled to help so they was a local call out from his sorting office and its his day off so from 3pm we will  be there for 4-5 hours.


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## New-journey

Steff said:


> We are off to help out tomorrow OH grew up there and feels very sad and compelled to help so they was a local call out from his sorting office and its his day off so from 3pm we will  be there for 4-5 hours.


That's great you are doing this, I am sure it will be a very powerful experience.


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## Steff

New-journey said:


> That's great you are doing this, I am sure it will be a very powerful experience.


Unfortunately it's been cancelled for reasons I don't know yet so quite gutted


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## Northerner

Steff said:


> Unfortunately it's been cancelled for reasons I don't know yet so quite gutted


Oh, I'm sorry to hear that @Steff  I hope there is another opportunity.


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## New-journey

Steff said:


> Unfortunately it's been cancelled for reasons I don't know yet so quite gutted


Can understand your feelings Steff, what a disappointment. I hope you find out why and can go another time.


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## Copepod

mikeyB said:


> I think I will carry a card in case anything happens to me to say that I don't want any politician coming to visit me, thankyou very much. TM hasn't an ounce of empathy in her body. It's not entirely her fault, I think having children changes your mindset.


Margaret Thatcher was a nuisance when she visited UCH in days following Kings Cross fire. Staff and patients wanted a properly funded NHS - that was 1987, with a female prime miniter who had two children. I don't think that it's being a parent that makes a person into a human being with empathy.


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## Steff

Thanks guys.
Apparently they now have enough people so can take a small amount of solice from that .  The local sorting office are still doing there own collection for the people tho


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## Steff

Apparently it was a faulty hotpoint fridge freezer which kicked things off


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## Northerner

Steff said:


> Apparently it was a faulty hotpoint fridge freezer which kicked things off


Just heard that  So mundane to cause such grief and disaster, and wouldn't even have merited more than a paragraph if it hadn't been for that cladding and all the other factors that made it so difficult to escape


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## grovesy

Steff said:


> Apparently it was a faulty hotpoint fridge freezer which kicked things off


I suspect this will affect Hotpoint as they were involved with a badly managed recall of Tumble Dryer fires.


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## trophywench

You mean Hotpoint I think, @grovesey.

I think - surprise surprise - that if it was the fault of any THING - it's the Building Regs.  Someone - the leader of a Council somewhere else I think? - the very next morning that 'That's why WE used a Rockwool product on our flats when we clad them and added extra insulation'.

And no one person, or one Government (well other than 'the UK government over the years' generally) is/has been responsible for those.


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## grovesy

trophywench said:


> You mean Hotpoint I think, @grovesey.
> 
> I think - surprise surprise - that if it was the fault of any THING - it's the Building Regs.  Someone - the leader of a Council somewhere else I think? - the very next morning that 'That's why WE used a Rockwool product on our flats when we clad them and added extra insulation'.
> 
> And no one person, or one Government (well other than 'the UK government over the years' generally) is/has been responsible for those.


Yes I did blumming auto correct!


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## mikeyB

Whether it was Hotpoint or not, the police have been given permission from the CPS to seek charges of corporate mansaughter. Sprinklers and a proper fireproof cladding would have confined this to page 15 on the local free-sheet.


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## Robin

I've a feeling this will take a while to unravel. it's been reported that the original specification was for fireproof cladding. So, either this wasn't the case, or somewhere along the line, this wasn't adhered to and nobody spotted it/did anything about it, so we have a long list of people from whom to gather evidence. Commissioning body, architect, surveyors, building inspector, contractor, subcontractor, quantity surveyors. What was the original spec? If it wasn't to spec, who should have spotted it? What was on the paperwork/bill etc?


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## Bill Stewardson

A few points,

That building failed 16 different safety inspections between 2014/16.

After the Lakanal House fire in London in 2009 a major Govt review of fire standards was called for by leading figures, such as high ranking fire officers and the coroner amongst others.

In 2013 Tory minister Erick Pickles promised a review, it is still awaited.

Another Tory minister- Gavin Barwell ( housing minister)- along with others ignored a report into fire safety. This report warned of risks to tower block residents among other things.

At this time Theresa May was Home Secretary- she is the longest serving Home Secretary.

The cost saving at Grenfell via the cladding was £2sqM.

Since 2010 business has received £93bn in tax breaks and incentives. The Kensington council has over £250 000 in reserves.

As you read this there are disabled people living twenty floors up in tower blocks.

Theresa May is now PM, Mr Barwell is her chief of staff.


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## Robin

Bill Stewardson said:


> That building failed 16 different safety inspections between 2014/16


I think it's clearer to say, 'the building was inspected 16 times and the unsafe cladding was not spotted' Saying that it failed the inspections suggests that unsafe practices were found and not remedied. The building inspectors are already on my list of suspects, above.


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## Bill Stewardson

Robin said:


> I think it's clearer to say, 'the building was inspected 16 times and the unsafe cladding was not spotted' Saying that it failed the inspections suggests that unsafe practices were found and not remedied. The building inspectors are already on my list of suspects, above.



Yes Robin it is possible to play with the wording and for any different phrasing to be entirely correct.
I do not for one second (yet) believe that anyone deliberately caused all this to happen. It does remain possible that money talked a particularly foul language, we shall see.

You can imagine the panicking in various supposedly high business offices.
Already there is talk of deleted files and paperwork going missing.

Times like these (Hillsbrough, Lakanal, Bradford, Ibrox) I get an uneasy feeling that the easier targets will be skewered whilst the real culprits evaporate into thin air.


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## trophywench

You're out of date Bill! - Gavin Barwell resigned just the other day!  LOL

My point was and is - there are most likely so many different individuals and organisations who share the blame to a greater or lesser degree, that unless they find them all guilty and chop off their heads ......

There will never be a 'satisfactory' outcome whatever whenever anyway.  How can there be ?

Hitler commiting suicide didn't bring the dead people back.


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## Steff

Can't believe our local premier inn just 2 mins away has been deemed unsafe with the same cladding as grenfell grr


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## Northerner

Thread re-opened. Can people make sure their comments are respectful of the sensitivities of others, thank you.


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## Steff

Northerner said:


> Thread re-opened. Can people make sure their comments are respectful of the sensitivities of others, thank you.


Many thanks Alan x


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## Bill Stewardson

trophywench said:


> You're out of date Bill! - Gavin Barwell resigned just the other day!  LOL
> 
> My point was and is - there are most likely so many different individuals and organisations who share the blame to a greater or lesser degree, that unless they find them all guilty and chop off their heads ......
> 
> There will never be a 'satisfactory' outcome whatever whenever anyway.  How can there be ?
> 
> Hitler commiting suicide didn't bring the dead people back.



When did Mr Barwell resign ?


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## Northerner

Bill Stewardson said:


> When did Mr Barwell resign ?


I think Jenny got him mixed up with Nicholas Holgate, Kensington and Chelsea Chief - I think Gavin Barwell is lying low for now.


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## Bill Stewardson

It's starting to look like nobody acted illegally and it's the regulations which are not fit for purpose.

How depressing is that ??


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## mikeyB

I don't know, Bill, it seems that fireproof cladding was specified in the original build design, but at some stage someone decided to save a bit of money. Who that someone was presumably is having difficulty sleeping.

I haven't seen any confirmation or otherwise that this particular cladding was illegal in high rise buildings, as it is in the US. But certainly, the inspectors who signed off the work need re-educating.


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## trophywench

mikeyB said:


> But certainly, the inspectors who signed off the work need re-educating.



You don't think they have been?

But anyway - if the materials used met the Building Regs they were there to enforce - then they couldn't have refused to sign the work off!  So VERY unfair to try and blame them.  Please don't.


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## mikeyB

Don't really want to blame anybody, Jennny, but something went very wrong - the regs, the regulators, whatever. I just hope it doesn't descend into everybody blaming everybody else before a proper thorough public enquiry.


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## Bubbsie

There is a criminal investigation underway...possibility of charges brought against any person/body identified as being at fault...whether resigned or not...not just a question of whether illegal  per se...they also need to consider whether negligent...or reckless.


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## mikeyB

Absolutely, Bubbsie. I just hope a public enquiry isn't derailed by the legal stuff.


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## Lucy Honeychurch

Blocks in Camden with the same cladding as Grenfell were evacuated last night. Where on earth are these hundreds of people going to be housed temporarily? Apparently it could be 4 weeks!
 Another safety concern is exposed gas pipes, when I lived in a tower block we only had electric, back then (late 80's) gas was deemed too dangerous in tower blocks. When that rule changed I've no idea.


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## grovesy

Lucy Honeychurch said:


> Blocks in Camden with the same cladding as Grenfell were evacuated last night. Where on earth are these hundreds of people going to be housed temporarily? Apparently it could be 4 weeks!
> Another safety concern is exposed gas pipes, when I lived in a tower block we only had electric, back then (late 80's) gas was deemed too dangerous in tower blocks. When that rule changed I've no idea.


I was saying to my other half when gas was first mentioned in Grenfell block I thought that it was banned in tower blocks.


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## Lucy Honeychurch

grovesy said:


> I was saying to my other half when gas was first mentioned in Grenfell block I thought that it was banned in tower blocks.



I've just looked into this and it appears that it is down to individual Councils, some allow gas and some don't. It appears that there were concerns surrounding the insulation of the gas pipes in Grenfell tower.


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## mikeyB

Yes. I thought after the Ronan  Point explosion and partial collapse back in 1968 - before some of you youngsters were born -  that was due to gas put an end to gas in towers blocks. Who was it who said if we don't learn from history we are doomed to repeat it?


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## HOBIE

As I have already said, I fit Gas SHUT OFF valves which shut off gas supply as soon as fire alarm goes off. Pubs & buildings all have them. Its a concrete building & anyone can see there is a flammable substance involved. Loft insulation burns, some carpets ?


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## mikeyB

Aye, Hobie, but nobody heard an alarm going off in this particular building. No alarm, no gas shut off.


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## Steff

I think as most tower blocks have one thing in common which is an intercom to let there visitors or a delivery up to there flat,that the intercom should somehow be connected up to a fire alarm alert and that makes a separate noise so the resident knows to differentiate between that and a visitor buzzing then at least that's some sort of "quick there's a fire"


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## Lucy Honeychurch

It just seems madness to me to have gas in these mammoth towers. Mike I read about the Ronan Point explosion, after that you'd have thought gas would have been banned in tower blocks.


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## Lucy Honeychurch

Steff said:


> I think as most tower blocks have one thing in common which is an intercom to let there visitors or a delivery up to there flat,that the intercom should somehow be connected up to a fire alarm alert and that makes a separate noise so the resident knows to differentiate between that and a visitor buzzing then at least that's some sort of "quick there's a fire"



I agree Steff.


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## Ditto

The few tower blocks I've been in have been gas. It's crazy. If I ruled the world we'd have nothing over four storeys. I don't think Brits do high living very well, not like in New York. It's just not natural. I went to my friends on the 17th floor. Couldn't get down quick enough.


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## robert@fm

I think one thing mentioned is that even when the "fire alarms" went off, they were too quiet -- barely audible.  Surely the whole idea of a fire alarm is to disturb you, so that you get a chance to save yourself; a fire alarm should be akin to a rocket launch or heavy metal concert in the flat next door. Certainly those in King's College Hospital (I know, because they were tested during one of my dialysis sessions) are almost fit to raise the dead.


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## Bubbsie

robert@fm said:


> I think one thing mentioned is that even when the "fire alarms" went off, they were too quiet -- barely audible.  Surely the whole idea of a fire alarm is to disturb you, so that you get a chance to save yourself; a fire alarm should be akin to a rocket launch or heavy metal concert in the flat next door. Certainly those in King's College Hospital (I know, because they were tested during one of my dialysis sessions) are almost fit to raise the dead.


Yes absolutely robert...when our smoke alarm at home goes off practically ear splitting...worked in central London last night...got to the A1 via Camden...as I stopped at various traffic lights...struck by how many Tower Blocks there were covered in cladding...watched as I saw lights being switched on in the various rooms...hoped very much everyone living there was safe in that environment...worrying...seems so many mistakes have been made...so many concerns raised...no action taken...tragic.


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## Bill Stewardson

I cant help feeling that at the end if all this nobody will be taken to account because its the regulations at fault, due to being outdated.

Sure there will have been much sharp practice but what's new about that ?

All these tower blocks on the news are failing "new regulations", I have to wander how/ when these "new regs" came about ?


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## Bubbsie

Bill Stewardson said:


> I cant help feeling that at the end if all this nobody will be taken to account because its the regulations at fault, due to being outdated.
> 
> Sure there will have been much sharp practice but what's new about that ?
> 
> All these tower blocks on the news are failing "new regulations", I have to wander how/ when these "new regs" came about ?


Not my forte Bill...however...wondering if the Health & Safety Executive can do anything about it?...possibly others may know the answer.


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## robert@fm

The Brixton Jamm venue is holding a fundraiser — but they're describing the fire as a "massacre", as if it were started deliberately. 

http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2017/06/...-community-fundraising-event-thurs-13th-july/


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## trophywench

Oh dear.  Might encourage the absolutely wrong type of mindset.


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## Bubbsie

robert@fm said:


> The Brixton Jamm venue is holding a fundraiser — but they're describing the fire as a "massacre", as if it were started deliberately.
> 
> http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2017/06/...-community-fundraising-event-thurs-13th-july/


Could be considered inflammatory Robert...however since it is now subject to a criminal investigation...possibly a massacre...57 people died...needlessly...horribly...violently...as yet there is no explanation...we seem to know the cause...the sub-standard materials used...if the installation of the cladding was negligent...reckless...a dereliction of duty...it may well be considered a massacre...we have yet to establish that.


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## Bill Stewardson

Has anyone ever been prosecuted for Corporate Manslaughter in the UK ?


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## Amigo

Bill Stewardson said:


> Has anyone ever been prosecuted for Corporate Manslaughter in the UK ?



Absolutely. The details of cases can easily be found by googling. Obviously never on this scale though.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/201...sentencing-council-guidelines-large-companies


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## Bill Stewardson

Amigo said:


> Absolutely. The details of cases can easily be found by googling. Obviously never on this scale though.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/law/201...sentencing-council-guidelines-large-companies



Seems to be mostly based around financial penalties.


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## Bill Stewardson

Now it comes out that nine  NHS trusts have buildings with the same cladding as Grenfell.

Now this raises some problems,, it may not be possible to close these buildings, who will foot the bill(s), how could such places exist in such an unsafe condition, how long have these buildings been in that condition ?

Jeremy Hunt will be on our screens any time soon.


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## Copepod

Bill Stewardson said:


> Now it comes out that nine  NHS trusts have buildings with the same cladding as Grenfell.
> 
> Now this raises some problems,, it may not be possible to close these buildings, who will foot the bill(s), how could such places exist in such an unsafe condition, how long have these buildings been in that condition ?
> 
> Jeremy Hunt will be on our screens any time soon.


Could be very complicated, if they're PPI projects. Depends on how contracts were written.


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## mikeyB

Bill Stewardson said:


> Now it comes out that nine  NHS trusts have buildings with the same cladding as Grenfell.
> 
> Now this raises some problems,, it may not be possible to close these buildings, who will foot the bill(s), how could such places exist in such an unsafe condition, how long have these buildings been in that condition ?
> 
> Jeremy Hunt will be on our screens any time soon.


The big  difference is that hospitals are covered by sprinkler systems. You have to look at the totality of fire precautions. It wasn't just the cladding that caused all those deaths.


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