# Type2 cases for different paths



## ianf0ster (Sep 29, 2021)

All sensible Type 1 diabetics count carbohydrates Yet many would claim this isn't good for Type 2 diabetics - why is this?

1. They claim it upsets Type 2's and causes poor mental health.
2. They say that 'eating less and moving more' is enough.
3. They agree with the NHS, GPs (and( apparently Diabetes,org.uk) that Blood Glucose meters are not required for Type 2's unless they deteriorate such as to have to use strong (potential hypo causing) medication. At which juncture it's apparently then OK for a Type 2 to test their Blood Glucose so they can (at last)  tell what makes it go too high as well as when the medication is overpowering the carbs and driving it too low.

Some serious consequences of uncontrolled Type 2 diabetes include retinopathy, neuropathy and wounds not healing - the same as those for hyperglycemia in Type 1 diabetes, *so why are Type 2's discriminated against?* Possibly because around 90% of us are either obese or overweight, so it is thought to be self-inflicted.
But this means that 10% of Type 2 diabetics are apparently  normal, healthy, slim even.

What are the the possible means of Type 2 remission?

1. Bariatric Surgery.
2. Medication.
3. Lifestyle/way of eating/weight loss.
4. Or some combination of the above.

What are the rates of longer term remission from these methods. 
(Figures are all approximate but are taken from records of Bariatric surgeons,  GPs and diabetes researchers).

1.Bariatric Surgery: 50% at best. Dr Robert Cywes  (a bariatric surgeon) says that surgery gives the patient a 12 month to 18month window in which to learn to eat appropriately. Hence the surprisingly low success rate.

2. Medication : approx 0% . Dr David Unwin (a GP) says he was so disappointed at his lack of success in treating diabetes he was about to leave the medical profession. He had treated Type 2 patients for over 20yrs, seen their numbers more than quadruple, *seen their medication increase over time and yet had never had a single case achieve remission!* Then a patient he didn't recognise came in and called him a terrible doctor. He didn't recognise her because she had 'cured' herself. No longer obese, no longer hypertensive, no longer hyperglycemic. Her Blood Glucose was now normal despite stopping taking all her medications for those conditions.

3. Lifestyle/way of eating/weight loss: Remission rates vary since different approaches suit different people, but up to around 50%.

A). Moderation: - Eat less  and move more. These are not starvation diets, yet for long term weight loss they only have a success rate of around 10%. Remission is perhaps a little higher than just for weight loss since their is a greater incentive. But since people continue to fail at weight loss so let's say 20% at best.

B). Weight loss diet: Success for these varies considerably but the 2 main problems with them are that they put your body into starvation mode and that you can only stay on them for a limited time before you start to suffer from deficiencies. So you might expect a success rate of around the same as for WW or SW .Having said that, the Newcastle diet (a shakes based 800 calorie per day diet) supported by diabetes.org.uk  has a remission rate of around 40% measured after 2yrs.

C). Way of Eating: Three well known facts about Carbohydrates I). They are not an essential macronutrient unlike Proteins and Fats.     II). They turn into glucose very quickly when eaten III). Farmers feed livestock a carbohydrate rich feed in order to fatten them up.
Yet many people including doctors feel it isn't worthwhile for Type 2 diabetics to measure their own individual body's tolerance to carbohydrates in order be able  to limit the carbohydrates they eat.
Limiting carbs has been shown in studies both by Virta and in Dr David Unwin's patients to have a remission rate of around 50% or more. So why aren't Type 2's at least advised about using Blood Glucose meters to aid in reducing carbs  when it has such a good remission rate - even if the NHS prefers to waste money on medication instead? Instead Low Carb (which doesn't restrict calories  or nutrients is treated  as a 'fad'diet' not even on a par with WW or SW etc.


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## Inka (Sep 29, 2021)

Just to be clear @ianf0ster Type 1s count carbs in order to calculate our insulin doses. So when a Type 1 asks a newly diagnosed Type 1 “Do you count carbs?” they mean something very specific and nothing to do with totting up daily carbs or limiting them or anything similar . They mean “Do you know your ratios?” So your first sentence makes no sense with regard to that statement.


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## Deleted member 33972 (Sep 29, 2021)

ianf0ster said:


> All sensible Type 1 diabetics count carbohydrates Yet many would claim this isn't good for Type 2 diabetics - why is this?
> 
> 1. They claim it upsets Type 2's and causes poor mental health.
> 2. They say that 'eating less and moving more' is enough.
> ...


Hi Ian, I’ve wondered about restricting carbohydrates. What do diabetic vegetarians eat if Carbs  are restricted or not to take them at all?  Starve?


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## Drummer (Sep 30, 2021)

A low carb diet for vegetarians is a little problematic, and for vegans it can be rather restrictive.
There have been times in recent days when I have had trouble getting things to eat, and have ended up with the low carb vege mixtures from the freezer and some roast courgette as I grew them in the garden this year. 
I tried on one of my winter skirts and could not fasten it tight enough for it to stay at my waist - it is a kilt with straps and buckles. Not a problem for me, as I still have weight to lose, but if I was to continue eating like that in future there might well come a point when I was just skin and bones.


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## trophywench (Sep 30, 2021)

You cannot 100% avoid carbs whether vegetarian or otherwise, bearing in mind even lettuce contains some carbs.  You would have to eat several whole lettuces at a time to get to the same carb value as a carrot though - so the trick is to discover how much of what carbs your body can tolerate and stick to that, plus also not to be afraid of eating fat instead of carby stodge (eg rice or spuds), to fill you up.


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## Leadinglights (Sep 30, 2021)

jeanettem1 said:


> Hi Ian, I’ve wondered about restricting carbohydrates. What do diabetic vegetarians eat if Carbs  are restricted or not to take them at all?  Starve?


There are some super low carb veggie recipes if you look, everybody imagines that veggie meals are all potatoes, rice, pasta and beans but there are lots of alternatives. Some veggie folk do eat fish. 
I think if you are vegan that is more of a struggle.


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## Nayshiftin (Sep 30, 2021)

jeanettem1 said:


> Hi Ian, I’ve wondered about restricting carbohydrates. What do diabetic vegetarians eat if Carbs  are restricted or not to take them at all?  Starve?


That tells me you have not researched . Most vegetarians will still eat eggs, lentils nuts seeds, tofu cheese all are protein . Many veg too is not too high and if you test you get what spikes you and I did lower myself considerably this way. I am at the stage though I don’t think my body knows my new sugar insulin level as lots has changed . I think of this ass journey and may use all of the above at some stage . A day is all I can take or an hour at a time. So be it. Do it the way no way is right no way is wrong. That’s my take.


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## Deleted member 33972 (Sep 30, 2021)

trophywench said:


> You cannot 100% avoid carbs whether vegetarian or otherwise, bearing in mind even lettuce contains some carbs.  You would have to eat several whole lettuces at a time to get to the same carb value as a carrot though - so the trick is to discover how much of what carbs your body can tolerate and stick to that, plus also not to be afraid of eating fat instead of carby stodge (eg rice or spuds), to fill you up.


I got slated a few days ago for saying that.  Cattle eat grass and antibiotics.  You are what you eat.  I tried it and couldn’t do the toilet. I am doing well with my carbs.  6.8 I think this morning


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## Nayshiftin (Sep 30, 2021)

jeanettem1 said:


> I got slated a few days ago for saying that.  Cattle eat grass and antibiotics.  You are what you eat.  I tried it and couldn’t do the toilet. I am doing well with my carbs.  6.8 I think this morning


If it works for you then that’s great. No one here has your knife and fork and forces you to eat anything . Enjoy take care and yes I think 6.8 I’d be happy too


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## Inka (Sep 30, 2021)

jeanettem1 said:


> Hi Ian, I’ve wondered about restricting carbohydrates. What do diabetic vegetarians eat if Carbs  are restricted or not to take them at all?  Starve?



Eggs, cheese, tofu are all low/no carb protein sources. Meat isn’t the only form of protein. Vegetarians eat a variety of foods but don’t stick to a veggie version of meat, veg, potatoes. We’ll have chillies, curries, bakes, etc etc. It’s a different way of eating. It can have any amount of carbs you choose.


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## rebrascora (Sep 30, 2021)

jeanettem1 said:


> I got slated a few days ago for saying that.  Cattle eat grass and antibiotics.  You are what you eat.  I tried it and couldn’t do the toilet. I am doing well with my carbs.  6.8 I think this morning


Beef cattle should be so lucky! After they are weaned they are brought into sheds and fed haylage and grains and perhaps spoilt vegetables..... A large beef cattle farmer I know was feeding his beast straw and jam a few years ago because he got a tanker load of jam that was not fit for human consumption for free. Those carbs will fatten beast too. Most young beef cattle don't see grass again although my local farmer does usually give them a second summer of grass (and freedom), the majority do not. Yes, antibiotics and wormers and other medication is used on them just like we expect to be treated with medication ourselves if we are sick but pesticides are sprayed on fruit and vegetables and a recent report showed there is a high percentage of residue in and on the fruit and veg we buy, so unless you buy totally organic or grow your own and then understand how hard it is to overcome pests and diseases, you have to accept that the food we buy is not always as wholesome as we would like it to be. 
I am not advocating one way or another regarding vegetarianism but it isn't necessarily healthier in my opinion and it does take more effort to keep carb intake low for diabetics when most protein sources for vegetarians also contain carbs ie beans, nuts etc.


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## ianf0ster (Sep 30, 2021)

Inka said:


> Just to be clear @ianf0ster Type 1s count carbs in order to calculate our insulin doses. So when a Type 1 asks a newly diagnosed Type 1 “Do you count carbs?” they mean something very specific and nothing to do with totting up daily carbs or limiting them or anything similar . They mean “Do you know your ratios?” So your first sentence makes no sense with regard to that statement.


Yes, but you still *count them and you have BG meters to aid you. *Dietary controlled type 2's just have a slightly different reason for counting them - so why is it considered so bad for us to do such that we are told not to and not to measure our BG. Or are most Type1's suffering mental distress from carb counting, whilst obviously also happy to be alive.


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## Inka (Sep 30, 2021)

@ianf0ster I think Type 2s should test their blood sugar. But I don’t get the comparison you’re making with Type 1s. We’re prescribed insulin, we’re given ratios for our bolus insulin and in order to enact these ratios, we have to count the carbs we’re about to eat.

If you’re simply saying that Type 2s on insulin and on an MDI regime should do the same, yes I agree, but I think you’re talking about Type 2s more generally, and it’s that comparison I don’t understand.

Yes, there is a fair bit of mental distress to Type 1 - hence burnout. The cognitive burden of being your own pancreas is hugely under-estimated.


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## trophywench (Sep 30, 2021)

Well it's a certain fact that nobody (with a functioning brain on here) thinks that T2s should NOT get a meter and strips.  You know why the research caused the participants to become depressed?  Cos it was designed to do so!  Patients issued with meters and strips, told when to test.  When anyone noticed - hang on this cow between 2 loaves (not mattresses as unlikely to be high carb)  I've just eaten for lunch has just doubled my BG and asked 'how can I stop this happening?', as the Trial instructions said 'You are not allowed to change anything' - they got fed up just pointlessly recording numbers all the while when they could do nob all to change them, even it was supposed to be for research.

It's like offering to teach people to drive and then blindfolding them.  'Of course you can drive!  The NHS has taught you!'


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## Lucyr (Sep 30, 2021)

Not all type 1s count carbs - a lot do but there are those who don’t, for example the newly diagnosed, those without access to education, or those who have been diabetic for a very long time and know what works for them or stick to a meal routine without necessarily counting. Not counting carbs doesn’t mean they aren’t sensible.


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## ianf0ster (Sep 30, 2021)

trophywench said:


> You cannot 100% avoid carbs whether vegetarian or otherwise, bearing in mind even lettuce contains some carbs.  You would have to eat several whole lettuces at a time to get to the same carb value as a carrot though - so the trick is to discover how much of what carbs your body can tolerate and stick to that, plus also not to be afraid of eating fat instead of carby stodge (eg rice or spuds), to fill you up.


Hence my great annoyance at the policy of discouraging BG meters for Type 2's. How can they e expected to know both which carbs they can tolerate and how many of those carbs if all they get is HnA1C tests several months apart. 
Even more frequent HbA1C's would be like steering while only looking in the rear view mirror!

It's all the more frustrating since several prominent politicians have used low carb for both T2 diabetes and weight loss.
Bojo and Hancock for weight loss, Tom Watson and David Davies for diabetes and weight loss. Plus their is even an NHS Low Carb program available on prescription that most GPs don't seem to know about.


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## trophywench (Sep 30, 2021)

Ian - I have avoided mentioning this at large for the last 49 years because it involves a very dark place which is not a good place to visit even briefly so we avoid it if we have any sense - being diagnosed T1 fairly instantly gives a person the wherewithal to cause serious health concerns (or worse ie death) to anyone they happen to wish to that day - ie Insulin and an injection device.  So IMMEDIATELY as well as being 99.9% responsible for our own life - we have an unspoken but inbuilt greater SOCIAL responsibility than we ever imagined the day before.

So we take that on board overnight and immediately have to shove it to the back.

Do 99.9% of T2s have that automatic responsibility?


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## rebrascora (Sep 30, 2021)

Lucyr said:


> Not all type 1s count carbs - a lot do but there are those who don’t, for example the newly diagnosed, those without access to education, or those who have been diabetic for a very long time and know what works for them or stick to a meal routine without necessarily counting. Not counting carbs doesn’t mean they aren’t sensible.


Must confess I don't religiously weigh things and count carbs but that is mostly because I avoid high carb foods, so I tend just to use my Libre to assess corrections for errors or protein. rather than calculate.... I just use a rough ball park figure and then react to my readings afterwards. This works for me but it might not for others. I think this is one of the benefits of Libre in that it allows you to be less rigid in your approach. 

I very much feel that there is a two tier approach to diabetes and I feel that Type 2s are treated like second class citizens in a lot of respects.... even just HbA1c targets. My consultant was absolutely delighted with my HbA1c of 52 and told me I should be too even though it was an increase from the previous year (48) and I was disappointed. Many health care professionals would be berating a Type 2 whose HbA1c had increased. At least that seems to be the general situation from the posts I read here on the forum and that remission levels are the ultimate goal, when many Type 1s have HbA1c levels in the 50s and 60 most of their lives, not just the last 10-30 years, as most Type 2s are diagnosed in later life. 

Is it right that someone on insulin should be able to eat whatever they like and just inject insulin to cover it whilst someone with Type 2 is severely restricting their diet to try to gain control of their levels. I know it is different for each type and even within the general types for individuals and I am not sure what the answer is but I do feel like the current approach seems to mostly place "blame" on the Type 2 and sympathy on the Type 1 and they should both be supported equally..... But I also know that the NHS finances are not limitless and are currently under strain, so I appreciate that there may not be enough resources available. The current situation is just the easy option to perpetuate. I think it needs an overhaul but it is undoubtedly not a priority in the current climate.


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## ianf0ster (Sep 30, 2021)

Lucyr said:


> Not all type 1s count carbs - a lot do but there are those who don’t, for example the newly diagnosed, those without access to education, or those who have been diabetic for a very long time and know what works for them or stick to a meal routine without necessarily counting. Not counting carbs doesn’t mean they aren’t sensible.


I was trying to phrase it in a way that acknowledged that not all Type 1's count carbs, but that those who want to do so have the full resources including meters. And they don't suffer the problems that people say Type 2's would get by doing so.

It's the same for Type 2's. I no longer to weigh food or check up the carbs in most foods any more, nor need to to use my BG to test meals - except in unusual circumstances. But without the opportunity of being able to do that in the first place I wouldn't be in such a good situation now.


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## ianf0ster (Sep 30, 2021)

trophywench said:


> Ian - I have avoided mentioning this at large for the last 49 years because it involves a very dark place which is not a good place to visit even briefly so we avoid it if we have any sense - being diagnosed T1 fairly instantly gives a person the wherewithal to cause serious health concerns (or worse ie death) to anyone they happen to wish to that day - ie Insulin and an injection device.  So IMMEDIATELY as well as being 99.9% responsible for our own life - we have an unspoken but inbuilt greater SOCIAL responsibility than we ever imagined the day before.
> 
> So we take that on board overnight and immediately have to shove it to the back.
> 
> Do 99.9% of T2s have that automatic responsibility?


I suggest that they do - e.g. driving a car when hyper. Not always one with such immediate personal consequences - more like smoking 40 cigs a day.
But the huge difference is that for the most part nobody actually tells them that they have this responsibility because T2 is supposedly irreversible and progressive so nobody can do a darned thing about it!


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## rebrascora (Sep 30, 2021)

trophywench said:


> Ian - I have avoided mentioning this at large for the last 49 years because it involves a very dark place which is not a good place to visit even briefly so we avoid it if we have any sense - being diagnosed T1 fairly instantly gives a person the wherewithal to cause serious health concerns (or worse ie death) to anyone they happen to wish to that day - ie Insulin and an injection device.  So IMMEDIATELY as well as being 99.9% responsible for our own life - we have an unspoken but inbuilt greater SOCIAL responsibility than we ever imagined the day before.
> 
> So we take that on board overnight and immediately have to shove it to the back.
> 
> Do 99.9% of T2s have that automatic responsibility?


To be honest, I would say that most people on insulin don't even contemplate this "responsibility" to any great extent. Interestingly it occurred to me when I was out walking on my own late one night, not long after the Sarah Everard case, when there was mention of women walking home clutching their keys as a possible self defense weapon. Up until then it had never really occurred to me that insulin could be used as a weapon although I am aware that there have beenrare cases of murders where insulin was used. I think it just didn't occur to me on a person level that I was potentially carrying a lethal weapon myself. But then, just driving a car can be lethal and much more likely to result in killing someone but we don't dwell on it every time we get behind the wheel, so I really don't see my insulin as a weighty responsibility in that respect and possible an advantage if I was ever in an horrific situation like Sarah Everard, where I might use it in my own defense if my life depended on it.


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## ianf0ster (Sep 30, 2021)

jeanettem1 said:


> Hi Ian, I’ve wondered about restricting carbohydrates. What do diabetic vegetarians eat if Carbs  are restricted or not to take them at all?  Starve?


Vegetarians and vegans are extremely diverse, both in what they eat and in why they restrict their diet from being omnivores.
Apart from religious reasons or 'love of animals' there are 2 misunderstandings:
1. That veggie is somehow healthier. It isn't, in fact it is easier to have a diet full in all essential nutrients even going completely carnivore than going completely vegan. Also  there is junk vegan food as well as junk omnivore food.

2. That farm animals are 'bad for the planet'. The reverse can be true (and is true in many parts of the world even on some ranches in the USA). Without herbivores all soil would lose most of  its ability to store carbon. Fields of grass when grazed by herbivores store more carbon than do forests. 
In spite of the addition of petrochemical fertilisers soil becomes less fertile without the excretions from animals.
Herbivores can turn cellulose into protein and fat and can do so by grazing in places unsuitable for growing crops.
They emit no net greenhouse gases - just recycle the carbon around between the vegetation and the atmosphere.


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## trophywench (Sep 30, 2021)

All things involving animals are inclined to be emotive whatever it is.  Any other T1s ever wonder when Banting Best & McLean were experimenting with insulin, why nobody recorded the names or even breeds of the doggies?

They're (one of) the only main reasons I can sit here typing - and I'd just like to know more about them and be able to thank them and sort of remember them better somehow.  (Am I THAT unusual in this?)


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## nonethewiser (Sep 30, 2021)

ianf0ster said:


> I was trying to phrase it in a way that acknowledged that not all Type 1's count carbs, but that those who want to do so have the full resources including meters. And they don't suffer the problems that people say Type 2's would get by doing so.



Different kettle of fish fella, can't compare dietary controlled type 2s to type 1s or type 2 using insulin, we need every bit of help to fine balance insulin food exercise to keep bg steady, wish there was more resources not less.

All people should have access to bg meters, but just don't get why someone well controlled by dietary methods would want to test so much, see this often even to extent that some wear libre sensors on permanent basis, bit OTT & wouldn't be me in their shoes, so there is an argument to back up hcp claim that some type 2s can come obsessive about bg testing.


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## ianf0ster (Sep 30, 2021)

nonethewiser said:


> .......................................
> 
> All people should have access to bg meters, but just don't get why someone well controlled by dietary methods would want to test so much, see this often even to extent that some wear libre sensors on permanent basis, bit OTT & wouldn't be me in their shoes, so there is an argument to back up hcp claim that some type 2s can come obsessive about bg testing.


It's not once T2s are well controlled by diet that they need to test much. As I have mentioned in several threads (not sure if in blue or red forums or both) I hardly ever nee to test now ( I've used around 6 strips in the last 4 months). For the 1st week I tested every meal, for the 2nd week I tested every lunch and dinner. Then just meals I was unsure of - there is no point in testing when you already know what the result will be (unless you like your fingers pricked) . Some people are OCD, but there's no reason to think this is higher in Type 2's than in any other section of the population.

It's that without access to a BG meter we can't find the right types of carbs and the right quantities in order to personalise our diabetic control. Even within what's universally accepted to be low carb, for some that's around 130 gms per day and for others it has to be less than 20gms per day. Obviously when coming from a 'standard' i.e. high carb way of eating, 130gms per day is a lot easier = more sustainable than 20gms per day. Also some can eat 2 different foods with the same carb count and the same GI and get differing BG spikes from them. Our bodies process some carbs better than others.

Without testing before and after meals how the heck can we find that out? Without a BG meter how long would it take to find the right amount of the right type of carbs in order to get our BG back to 'normal'. I would suggest for many that would be impossible - very difficult even if having an HbA1C every week!


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## Inka (Sep 30, 2021)

*I was trying to phrase it in a way that acknowledged that not all Type 1's count carbs, but that those who want to do so have the full resources including meters. And they don't suffer the problems that people say Type 2's would get by doing so.*

Even Type 1s that might be newly diagnosed and not counting carbs, get given a meter and strips for free, yes. _But that’s because a) we might have a severe hypo and die; and b) because we need to test every time we drive. _Its being on insulin that’s the thing.

You keep on and on not understanding Type 1 carb counting. We count the carbs only to calculate our insulin dose according to our individual ratios. We’re given the “full resources” of a blood glucose meter so we don’t die from a hypo or die from DKA.


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## Deleted member 33972 (Sep 30, 2021)

Inka said:


> Just to be clear @ianf0ster Type 1s count carbs in order to calculate our insulin doses. So when a Type 1 asks a newly diagnosed Type 1 “Do you count carbs?” they mean something very specific and nothing to do with totting up daily carbs or limiting them or anything similar . They mean “Do you know your ratios?” So your first sentence makes no sense with regard to that statement.


My friend was Type 1 and gave talks on Diabes 1 she ate what I ate and adjusted her insulin. She had a box of sweets in the fridge.  She had had a kidney tran


Inka said:


> Eggs, cheese, tofu are all low/no carb protein sources. Meat isn’t the only form of protein. Vegetarians eat a variety of foods but don’t stick to a veggie version of meat, veg, potatoes. We’ll have chillies, curries, bakes, etc etc. It’s a different way of eating. It can have any amount of carbs you choose.


i can’t do a lot of meat. Hurts my digestive system badly. Have you seen smelly tofu being made? Lol


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## Deleted member 33972 (Sep 30, 2021)

I


ianf0ster said:


> It's not once T2s are well controlled by diet that they need to test much. As I have mentioned in several threads (not sure if in blue or red forums or both) I hardly ever nee to test now ( I've used around 6 strips in the last 4 months). For the 1st week I tested every meal, for the 2nd week I tested every lunch and dinner. Then just meals I was unsure of - there is no point in testing when you already know what the result will be (unless you like your fingers pricked) . Some people are OCD, but there's no reason to think this is higher in Type 2's than in any other section of the population.
> 
> It's that without access to a BG meter we can't find the right types of carbs and the right quantities in order to personalise our diabetic control. Even within what's universally accepted to be low carb, for some that's around 130 gms per day and for others it has to be less than 20gms per day. Obviously when coming from a 'standard' i.e. high carb way of eating, 130gms per day is a lot easier = more sustainable than 20gms per day. Also some can eat 2 different foods with the same carb count and the same GI and get differing BG spikes from them. Our bodies process some carbs better than others.
> 
> Without testing before and after meals how the heck can we find that out? Without a BG meter how long would it take to find the right amount of the right type of carbs in order to get our BG back to 'normal'. I would suggest for many that would be impossible - very difficult even if having an HbA1C every week!


just  doing mornings.  It’s expensive with strips and sticks


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## ianf0ster (Sep 30, 2021)

Inka said:


> *I was trying to phrase it in a way that acknowledged that not all Type 1's count carbs, but that those who want to do so have the full resources including meters. And they don't suffer the problems that people say Type 2's would get by doing so.*
> 
> Even Type 1s that might be newly diagnosed and not counting carbs, get given a meter and strips for free, yes. _But that’s because a) we might have a severe hypo and die; and b) because we need to test every time we drive. _Its being on insulin that’s the thing.
> 
> You keep on and on not understanding Type 1 carb counting. We count the carbs only to calculate our insulin dose according to our individual ratios. We’re given the “full resources” of a blood glucose meter so we don’t die from a hypo or die from DKA.


On the contrary, I understand very well why Type 1's count carbs (or not in the case of my friend Peter who lives a little dangerously). I think it's you who is deliberately downplaying the longer term health reasons why Type 2's count carbs. The effects of long term hyper glycemia, the side effects of SGLT2's the possibility of 'killing' beta cells due to prolonged overproduction of natural insulin, the growing insulin resistance requiring stronger medications which in turn make the insulin resistance worse.
But are you really unaware of those, or are you just playing at it for sake of a good discussion?


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## Inka (Sep 30, 2021)

No, Ian, I’m not playing at anything. I’m trying to understand the point you’re making - genuinely trying. You still haven’t explained what you meant. If you simply mean Type 2s should get glucose meters as well as Type 1s - yes, I agree, as I’ve said many times before, both here and in other posts.

The point I’m making is that Type 1s aren’t given glucose meters so they can count carbs. They’re given them because they’re on insulin.

You said:
“_Yes, but you still count them and you have BG meters to aid you. Dietary controlled type 2's just have a slightly different reason for counting them - so why is it considered so bad for us to do such that we are told not to and not to measure our BG. Or are most Type1's suffering mental distress from carb counting, whilst obviously also happy to be alive.”_

The two things aren’t comparable. Yes, I agree Type 2s should be aware of the carbs they’re eating and I very much agree they should test before meals and after meals to see how certain foods affect their blood sugar. But why has that got anything to do with a Type 1 carb-counting to calculate an insulin dose? The two things are different.

I think I might understand better what you’re saying now, but I think you could have made your point - that Type2s should test and get glucose meters for the benefits it brings them as Type 2s - without bringing Type 1s into it.

It’s important to clarify that carb-counting means something very specific for Type 1s. There has been confusion before and they’ll continue to be. That’s why I made my initial post.


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## ianf0ster (Sep 30, 2021)

I brought Type 1's into this because it is mainly Type 1's (though also some misguided Type 2's) who claim that Type 2's should just eat in moderation and not count carbs. I cut/paste the reasons they give:
1. They claim it upsets Type 2's and causes poor mental health.
2. They say that 'eating less and moving more' is enough.
3. They agree with the NHS, GPs (and( apparently Diabetes,org.uk) that Blood Glucose meters are not required for Type 2's unless they deteriorate such as to have to use strong (potential hypo causing) medication.


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## Robin (Sep 30, 2021)

ianf0ster said:


> I brought Type 1's into this because it is mainly Type 1's (though also some misguided Type 2's) who claim that Type 2's should just eat in moderation and not count carbs. I cut/paste the reasons they give:
> 1. They claim it upsets Type 2's and causes poor mental health.
> 2. They say that 'eating less and moving more' is enough.
> 3. They agree with the NHS, GPs (and( apparently Diabetes,org.uk) that Blood Glucose meters are not required for Type 2's unless they deteriorate such as to have to use strong (potential hypo causing) medication.


Thank you for the clarification. That’s how I'd first interpreted your post, but I then reread it and felt I might have misinterpreted it, and you were referring to people in general. Apparently not. Please leave me out of your generalisation.


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## JJay (Sep 30, 2021)

Robin said:


> Please leave me out of your generalisation.


And me!


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## everydayupsanddowns (Sep 30, 2021)

ianf0ster said:


> I brought Type 1's into this because it is mainly Type 1's (though also some misguided Type 2's) who claim that Type 2's should just eat in moderation and not count carbs.



I‘m not sure that’s a helpful assumption, and have no idea what information you might have used to reach that conclusion, except perhaps your own experience. And if so, then I think that’s unfortunate. Most T1s here, and mist T1s I know anywhere don’t think that at all.

There is certainly a minority view that ‘the other lot’ (from either side of the same fence) have it easy, and it’s completely unfair - but that’s certainly not a view I see expressed by any members here, and if it were I’m sure it would be called out by the many members here who think that access to appropriate technology and education should be equitable whatever classification one has - so that each person with diabetes has the best chance of building their own ‘diabetes toolkit’ and a personalised approach to eating and managing their blood glucose in a way that works for them.

I am aware though that regular forum contributors, visitors, readers and lurkers (hello!) are not necessarily _average_ patients. Seeking out a forum and accessing its content suggests a degree of self-motovation and an interest to be actively involved in your own care.

I am led to believe by medical professionals and diabetes specialists that these are fairly rare attributes in the diabetes population as a whole. I think there are many many people with diabetes, who for all sorts of different reasons, simply do not want to, feel able to, or _are_ able to use those more intensive glucose management strategies.

And the more people we can connect with, encourage and support on the forum the better as far as I am concerned. So that each person can find their own way through the maze of options.


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## nonethewiser (Sep 30, 2021)

ianf0ster said:


> It's not once T2s are well controlled by diet that they need to test much. As I have mentioned in several threads (not sure if in blue or red forums or both) I hardly ever nee to test now ( I've used around 6 strips in the last 4 months). For the 1st week I tested every meal, for the 2nd week I tested every lunch and dinner. Then just meals I was unsure of - there is no point in testing when you already know what the result will be (unless you like your fingers pricked) . Some people are OCD, but there's no reason to think this is higher in Type 2's than in any other section of the population.
> 
> It's that without access to a BG meter we can't find the right types of carbs and the right quantities in order to personalise our diabetic control. Even within what's universally accepted to be low carb, for some that's around 130 gms per day and for others it has to be less than 20gms per day. Obviously when coming from a 'standard' i.e. high carb way of eating, 130gms per day is a lot easier = more sustainable than 20gms per day. Also some can eat 2 different foods with the same carb count and the same GI and get differing BG spikes from them. Our bodies process some carbs better than others.
> 
> Without testing before and after meals how the heck can we find that out? Without a BG meter how long would it take to find the right amount of the right type of carbs in order to get our BG back to 'normal'. I would suggest for many that would be impossible - very difficult even if having an HbA1C every week!



You forget one important thing, of population of people with diabetes you'll be lucky if 1% join forums, in other words who knows how many type 2s get given bg meters.

Example, wife was diagnosed pre diabetic after long period of steroids & lack of activity having being unwell, she put on lot of weight so knew what to do after I told her about Prof Taylor's work, nurse at gp practice give her bg meter & encouraged her to test, she didn't test that much but went about losing weight, 5 stone in total & managed to reverse diagnosis & has since had normal blood results, in total she used 10 strips that came with meter & about 10 from pot of 50 which dr prescribed.


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## Leadinglights (Sep 30, 2021)

You are right it is only the people who are motivated who will come onto forums like this. I was quite critical that G Ps just seemed to hand out medications rather than advise about dietary changes but talking to my daughter and son in law, both doctors they say that they get a feel for the people who will engage with lifestyle changes and those who will actually rebel against any suggestion they need to change their diet and basically do nothing so they sadly see people deteriorate to the point where their eyesight and limbs are suffering. 
Many people have no basic understanding of nutrition and foods or even how to cook. I think that is a sad reflection of todays society. 
It is not helped by the fact that high carb foods are cheap whereas good quality healthy foods are more expensive. But it requires some ingenuity to make the best of affordable foods.


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## nonethewiser (Oct 1, 2021)

Leadinglights said:


> You are right it is only the people who are motivated who will come onto forums like this. I was quite critical that G Ps just seemed to hand out medications rather than advise about dietary changes but talking to my daughter and son in law, both doctors they say that they get a feel for the people who will engage with lifestyle changes and those who will actually rebel against any suggestion they need to change their diet and basically do nothing so they sadly see people deteriorate to the point where their eyesight and limbs are suffering.
> Many people have no basic understanding of nutrition and foods or even how to cook. I think that is a sad reflection of todays society.
> It is not helped by the fact that high carb foods are cheap whereas good quality healthy foods are more expensive. But it requires some ingenuity to make the best of affordable foods.



Pick up on couple of points in your reply. Really making wrong assumption that only those who are motivated join forums, met many people both type 1 & 2 who are well controlled but wouldnt come anywhere near diabetes forums, mainly red one mind, so its matter of choice to join or not.

Quality food need not be expensive, we mainly shop in Aldi who sell fruit veg meats at reasonable prices, likes of Sainsbury are price matching Aldi on lot of produce so another option there.


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## Leadinglights (Oct 1, 2021)

nonethewiser said:


> Pick up on couple of points in your reply. Really making wrong assumption that only those who are motivated join forums, met many people both type 1 & 2 who are well controlled but wouldnt come anywhere near diabetes forums, mainly red one mind, so its matter of choice to join or not.
> 
> Quality food need not be expensive, we mainly shop in Aldi who sell fruit veg meats at reasonable prices, likes of Sainsbury are price matching Aldi on lot of produce so another option there.


Point taken. I suppose we only see a small snapshot of people here and there are thousands out there who have brilliant support from their diabetic support team and family so it is easy to get a biased view.


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## trophywench (Oct 1, 2021)

I think a lot of PWD still get a lot of odd ideas and impressions from a certain forum (which had the damn cheek to use DUK's logo at first - to try and make people think it was connected to our charity, presumably - and as a member - I made damn sure I wrote to DUK to ensure they were aware of it)   And yes even though I was perfectly happy using DSF, I did join the one I'm talking about to try and see what they were up to.  I got banned quite soon - now decades ago - for saying on a thread  'Hang on there - there are other less drastic ways of dealing with Type 2 than everyone having to severely curtail their carb intake instantly.'

At that time a load of childish bullies, go along with what we say else we won't speak to you or let you speak to anyone.

Oh look, I don't seem to have lost out.  Plus I now know a lot more about many things including diabetes than I did when I turned to Diabetes Insight (the fore runner of DSF) for help with mine in the first place.

I didn't know very much at all about Type 2 at that time - it was something you got if you were either old or fat - then I got chatting to an - elderly! but not fat - man in the GP waiting room in about 1974.  I learned that he was T2 but treated only by insulin apparently (Now that was a surprise) and that he was a farmer from the other side of Stourport turned carriage racer, had just been competing at Badminton and was telling me how lovely the Queen and Prince Philip were.  Any wonder I still remember that - or that a lot of things 'since discovered' eg LADA(!) - have come as no great surprise to me?  Just more pieces of the broken up jigsaw stored in my brain, suddenly coming together.  Got quite a bit of the sky finished now.  (I think it's possibly a pic of The Haywain - but we'll all have to wait until more of it is done)

Hence - I do not fit with your assumption of 'what T1s think about T2s', either.  Kindly remember the adage about the word assume !


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## Deleted member 33972 (Oct 2, 2021)

Leadinglights said:


> You are right it is only the people who are motivated who will come onto forums like this. I was quite critical that G Ps just seemed to hand out medications rather than advise about dietary changes but talking to my daughter and son in law, both doctors they say that they get a feel for the people who will engage with lifestyle changes and those who will actually rebel against any suggestion they need to change their diet and basically do nothing so they sadly see people deteriorate to the point where their eyesight and limbs are suffering.
> Many people have no basic understanding of nutrition and foods or even how to cook. I think that is a sad reflection of todays society.
> It is not helped by the fact that high carb foods are cheap whereas good quality healthy foods are more expensive. But it requires some ingenuity to make the best of affordable foods.


I’m always grateful that my mother taught me how to cook from an early age.  I agree that there’s a lot of people who can’t or won’t   cook or know about nutritional values.  I feel some people brag that they can’t cook as if it gives them some kind of special status. The area I live in has cookery classes and they’re well attended by adult members  of the community


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## Deleted member 33972 (Oct 2, 2021)

everydayupsanddowns said:


> I‘m not sure that’s a helpful assumption, and have no idea what information you might have used to reach that conclusion, except perhaps your own experience. And if so, then I think that’s unfortunate. Most T1s here, and mist T1s I know anywhere don’t think that at all.
> 
> There is certainly a minority view that ‘the other lot’ (from either side of the same fence) have it easy, and it’s completely unfair - but that’s certainly not a view I see expressed by any members here, and if it were I’m sure it would be called out by the many members here who think that access to appropriate technology and education should be equitable whatever classification one has - so that each person with diabetes has the best chance of building their own ‘diabetes toolkit’ and a personalised approach to eating and managing their blood glucose in a way that works for them.
> 
> ...


Aren’t there different kinds of carbs ?  Not all carbs are equal. My friend had type 1 and never restricted her carbs as in potatoes, pasta and rice. She gave talks in the hospital in Nottingham on how to manage type 1 and insulin.


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## trophywench (Oct 2, 2021)

... and when you and I were teenagers/newly weds - the Gas Board and the Electricity board used to put on cookery demos at the drop of a hat, manned by folk like Mary Berry, Pru Leith, Delia Smith and numerous others either open to the public or booked by ladies organisations for their members - free.  Free adult education at evening classes at the local technical college was the norm - so my mum first learned hand tailoring to clothe us and herself, then flower arranging - most of my married friends asked and paid her to do large dried flower displays for their homes when they were all the rage in the 1970s - sis and I were sick of the sight of ruddy helicrysums  - and latterly millinery.  (no thanks, I never needed a pull on polyester hat, and still don't, ta)

So OK we can both be critical - but really to be honest - they don't get any of the educational things we could access FOC when it suited us, do they.


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## travellor (Oct 2, 2021)

ianf0ster said:


> I brought Type 1's into this because it is mainly Type 1's (though also some misguided Type 2's) who claim that Type 2's should just eat in moderation and not count carbs. I cut/paste the reasons they give:
> 1. They claim it upsets Type 2's and causes poor mental health.
> 2. They say that 'eating less and moving more' is enough.
> 3. They agree with the NHS, GPs (and( apparently Diabetes,org.uk) that Blood Glucose meters are not required for Type 2's unless they deteriorate such as to have to use strong (potential hypo causing) medication.


You do realise that type 2 is potentially insulin resistance, not just a lack of beta cells producing insulin?
The best advice I got was "eat less, move more"
Reducing the insulin resistance, and losing weight reversed my diabetes, could I have done that simply by being treated in the same way as a type 1, who isn't the same as me?
And like many, when I looked at the red site  it was always "diabetes was for life, it can never be reversed, it has to be low carb forever, just eat more fat, and carry on as you always have". There was even a clique over which fat was best!
And others obsessing over .5g of carbs.
It was amazingly depressing to read that forum when I was first diagnosed.
I realised that's why the NHS don't promote micro management of carb counting.
Thankfully I found other ideas out there.


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## Pattidevans (Oct 2, 2021)

Not all surgeries deny T2s the ability to test (at least when newly diagnosed).  I belong to the Patients' panel in our surgery and one day a lady came to a meeting (the only meeting she ever did come to, though she'd been on the panel for years).  She told us that her hubby had just been diagnosed T2 and that she didn't understand the dietary advice.  Although I am T1 I had been Admin on DSF for many years  where we welcomed both types and where I had learned a lot about T2 and diet.  I completely understood her confusion regarding the diet sheet she'd been supplied with. It was a bit of a mish mash.  I arranged a meeting with the nurse who specialised in diabetes at the surgery.  She told me that she does in fact provide newly diagnosed T2s with means to test, at least at the beginning.   We had a very good collaboration and I produced the attached poster which was displayed in the waiting room until the surgery moved into a new health centre where there are no noticeboards.   I did have to make some concessions when producing it, but it was at least along the right lines I think.

I also produced a recipe leaflet which explained substitutes etc (e.g. cauli rice and all manner of other things) but unfortunately it was never used because the hospital DSN at the time said that "low carb is not the line the NHS is taking". I never really finished formatting it because I was banging my head on a brick wall, but from the unfinished .pdf you will get the idea. 

However that doesn't detract from the fact that our surgery takes a very pro-active approach to T2.  Having said that, hubby and  I were in the supermarket last week when I bumped into an acquaintance we hadn't seen for a long time.  When we asked how he was he told us he was diabetic "but I just take the pills and carry on as usual".  The conversation continued and I did point out a few items in his trolley which "may not be that good for you" i.e. bread and bananas amongst others.  He attends a surgery a couple of miles away and apparently all the advice he was given was to take the Metformin.  I suggested he join this forum, but he said he was completely technophobe and had nothing to do with computers.  Shame... but at 74 he's still farming and has a very active life, so I suppose that helps.


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## Pattidevans (Oct 2, 2021)

PS I also gave the nurse a copy of "Jennifer's advice" which she did use.


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## Leadinglights (Oct 2, 2021)

Pattidevans said:


> Not all surgeries deny T2s the ability to test (at least when newly diagnosed).  I belong to the Patients' panel in our surgery and one day a lady came to a meeting (the only meeting she ever did come to, though she'd been on the panel for years).  She told us that her hubby had just been diagnosed T2 and that she didn't understand the dietary advice.  Although I am T1 I had been Admin on DSF for many years  where we welcomed both types and where I had learned a lot about T2 and diet.  I completely understood her confusion regarding the diet sheet she'd been supplied with. It was a bit of a mish mash.  I arranged a meeting with the nurse who specialised in diabetes at the surgery.  She told me that she does in fact provide newly diagnosed T2s with means to test, at least at the beginning.   We had a very good collaboration and I produced the attached poster which was displayed in the waiting room until the surgery moved into a new health centre where there are no noticeboards.   I did have to make some concessions when producing it, but it was at least along the right lines I think.
> 
> I also produced a recipe leaflet which explained substitutes etc (e.g. cauli rice and all manner of other things) but unfortunately it was never used because the hospital DSN at the time said that "low carb is not the line the NHS is taking". I never really finished formatting it because I was banging my head on a brick wall, but from the unfinished .pdf you will get the idea.
> 
> However that doesn't detract from the fact that our surgery takes a very pro-active approach to T2.  Having said that, hubby and  I were in the supermarket last week when I bumped into an acquaintance we hadn't seen for a long time.  When we asked how he was he told us he was diabetic "but I just take the pills and carry on as usual".  The conversation continued and I did point out a few items in his trolley which "may not be that good for you" i.e. bread and bananas amongst others.  He attends a surgery a couple of miles away and apparently all the advice he was given was to take the Metformin.  I suggested he join this forum, but he said he was completely technophobe and had nothing to do with computers.  Shame... but at 74 he's still farming and has a very active life, so I suppose that helps.


Your poster is brilliant, there should be some way it could be incorporated into the info people can find when they come here looking for what to eat when first diagnosed. It would make the changes they need to make not quite so daunting and very possible.


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## Pattidevans (Oct 2, 2021)

Thank you @Leadinglights.  I recall I had to dumb it down a bit as they were mental about fat.


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## travellor (Oct 2, 2021)

Leadinglights said:


> Your poster is brilliant, there should be some way it could be incorporated into the info people can find when they come here looking for what to eat when first diagnosed. It would make the changes they need to make not quite so daunting and very possible.


It is very good,
but,
there are things on there which contradict some NHS advice on areas like heart health, blood pressure, cholesterol, etc.
The NHS doesn't see diabetes as a single and only issue, they have to treat the whole person's health issue.
I had great support, I was given a meter, I used it to build a profile of which carbs made me a spike, and which didn't.
(Carbs certainly aren't all equal by any means)
Working with an NHS dietician we adapted the healthy plate, and a low calorie low fat diet with excellent results all round, not just laser targeted at reducing BG readings.
But would everyone go to those lengths when diagnosed?


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## Deleted member 33972 (Oct 2, 2021)

It surprises me that so many people use the forums on this site and  don’t  use learning zone!  There’s plenty of  information on the website about what we can eat for both type 1 and type 2 yet this discussion goes on all the time.  Using  the learning zone  is what made me defend myself when zero carbs were being forced on me and my doctors advice trashed.  It’s educational about our food and even gives hacks  and fake always.  The information is on this website!




__





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## ianf0ster (Oct 2, 2021)

travellor said:


> You do realise that type 2 is potentially insulin resistance, not just a lack of beta cells producing insulin?
> The best advice I got was "eat less, move more"
> Reducing the insulin resistance, and losing weight reversed my diabetes, could I have done that simply by being treated in the same way as a type 1, who isn't the same as me?
> And like many, when I looked at the red site  it was always "diabetes was for life, it can never be reversed, it has to be low carb forever, just eat more fat, and carry on as you always have". There was even a clique over which fat was best!
> ...


If eat less, move more worked in more than a tiny minority then there would hardly be any obese people or Type 2 diabetics. That advice has made both the obesity and the T2DM crisis much worse. And even you admit that it was the Newcastle Diet - not Med way of eating that got your Type 2 under control! So why do you keep knocking the methods (including Newcastle Diet)  that do get it under control?

You have just said that you were given a BG meter - why then are you against their use in tailoring a personalised way of eating for other Type 2's? Most Type 2's don't get a Meter and many are given advice about eating at least 30gms of carbs up to 6 times per day - 3 meals and up to 3 snacks! Yet you seem to support that.

Type 2 is mostly associated with over production of insulin by beta cells, rather than under production.

Some slim Type 2's get into remission through Low Carb without losing weight, though it's unusual for a Type 2 to actually gain weight while getting into remission - I only know of one. Fortunately due to it probably causing my T2 and 3x CAB in the first place, the type of mediterranean way of eating plus 5 a Day  and the emphasis on low fat, whole grains etc. had already made me gain  over 14lbs by the time I was diagnosed. By then I was 2lbs overweight so I could afford to lose a little weight even if a crash diet such as the Newcastle seemed unrealistic for me.
Nobody in this thread has suggested that a Type 2 can get into remission by injecting Insulin like a Type 1, in fact I state that that the remission rate from medication (other than continued metformin) alone is approximately 0% i.e. most GP's just keep prescribing more and more medication.

The NHS, DUK, American Diabetes Association (who's CEO used low carb to put her own T2DM  into remission) all recognise that low carb has a place in treatment of Diabetes> UK well known politicians Tom Watson and David Davis used low carb for both treating diabetes and obesity. Both PM Boris Johnson and ex-health minister Matt Hancock used low carb in order to lose weight.


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## ianf0ster (Oct 2, 2021)

jeanettem1 said:


> It surprises me that so many people use the forums on this site and  don’t  use learning zone!  There’s plenty of  information on the website about what we can eat for both type 1 and type 2 yet this discussion goes on all the time.  Using  the learning zone  is what made me defend myself when zero carbs were being forced on me and my doctors advice trashed.  It’s educational about our food and even gives hacks  and fake always.  The information is on this website!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Zero carbs 'were being forced on you' ?


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## silentsquirrel (Oct 2, 2021)

jeanettem1 said:


> It surprises me that so many people use the forums on this site and  don’t  use learning zone!  There’s plenty of  information on the website about what we can eat for both type 1 and type 2 yet this discussion goes on all the time.  Using  the learning zone  is what made me defend myself when zero carbs were being forced on me and my doctors advice trashed.  It’s educational about our food and even gives hacks  and fake always.  The information is on this website!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Learning Zone is quite recent, and many of us have been on the forum for years before it.  The forum used to be much more separate from the main DUK site.

DUK is still closely wedded to NHS dietary advice.  This is slowly improving. When I first looked at the food advice on DUK about 9 years ago, as a T2 I was being advised to eat carbs equivalent to 14 slices of bread a day!  Although it is improving, many of us have found that the Eatwell Guide, Nhs advice and DUK advice simply does not work well for us.  Hence the discrepancy between the main site and advice from many (not all) members of the forum.

You have to find what works well for you.

I cannot think of _*any*_ member of the forum who would advise zero carb.


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## travellor (Oct 2, 2021)

ianf0ster said:


> If eat less, move more worked in more than a tiny minority then there would hardly be any obese people or Type 2 diabetics. That advice has made both the obesity and the T2DM crisis much worse. And even you admit that it was the Newcastle Diet - not Med way of eating that got your Type 2 under control! So why do you keep knocking the methods (including Newcastle Diet)  that do get it under control?
> 
> You have just said that you were given a BG meter - why then are you against their use in tailoring a personalised way of eating for other Type 2's? Most Type 2's don't get a Meter and many are given advice about eating at least 30gms of carbs up to 6 times per day - 3 meals and up to 3 snacks! Yet you seem to support that.
> 
> ...


Your diet made you gain weight?
Who put the food in your mouth?
And you are knocking the NHS for advising you to eat less?

No, I said the Newcastle diet reversed my diabetes.
Low calorie low fat, the NHS healthy plate got it "under control"
Let's be clear about what I actually did. there was no low carb, and there was definitely low fat and low calorie, as per NHS guidance.
Then the Newcastle diet, as per NHS guidance now to completely reverse it.
And now I certainly don't low carb.

And now off out for a curry, with all the rice and bread, and then several pints of real ale.


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## Pattidevans (Oct 2, 2021)

travellor said:


> It is very good,
> but,
> there are things on there which contradict some NHS advice on areas like heart health, blood pressure, cholesterol, etc.


@travellor Could you point out which things please?  It was scrutinised by a GP (obviously) before being posted on their notice board.  

IMHO and that of many qualified medical practitioners, the "Healthy eating" plate is responsible for a great deal of the obesity epidemic.  After being diagnosed with diabetes I was sent to the dietitian who advised me to eat from the Eatwell plate.  I gained 3 stone and it has taken a long time to get rid of it.

If you look into the whole heart health issue you will find out that it is mostly based on the flawed findings of the study conducted by one hugely egotistical man by the name of Ancel Keys.  It started as an analysis of the diets of 22 countries and the ones that didn't fit his hypothesis he threw out of the study, retaining only 7 countries which "proved" his hypothesis.

With due respect @jeanettem1 I cannot recall anyone in this forum recommending zero carbs.  I do know another forum where they do, perhaps you have mixed them up?


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## Lucyr (Oct 2, 2021)

Pattidevans said:


> @travellor Could you point out which things please?  It was scrutinised by a GP (obviously) before being posted on their notice board.
> 
> IMHO and that of many qualified medical practitioners, the "Healthy eating" plate is responsible for a great deal of the obesity epidemic.  After being diagnosed with diabetes I was sent to the dietitian who advised me to eat from the Eatwell plate.  I gained 3 stone and it has taken a long time to get rid of it.
> 
> ...


There are definitely people on this forum that are very pushy about going very low carb (albeit not zero carb since carbs are in everything), I could write a list…


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## Inka (Oct 2, 2021)

Perhaps people _have_ looked into the whole heart health thing @Pattidevans and beg to differ? The idea that people just haven’t read the literature or looked at various sides of the argument is often wrong.


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## ianf0ster (Oct 2, 2021)

travellor said:


> Your diet made you gain weight?
> Who put the food in your mouth?
> And you are knocking the NHS for advising you to eat less?


No, I was well below the median for normal BMI - so why would I want to lose weight - I just wanted to be healthy and never suspected that the NHS advice would make me less healthy! - Until it had already done so twice.

This is one reason I try to distinguish between a way of eating and a calorie controlled diet.

 I've had at least 3 different ways of eating during my 70yrs. The only one that seemed to make me less healthy was in following the NHS advice. Because it emphasised fruit over veg and because it actually said at least 5 a day, I was eating at least 2 portions of fruit per day every day and an average of 7 out of the 5 per day. Breakfast was always 1 large banana and some boiled oats, lunch usually a salad, all bread, rice, pasta was whole grain. I ate raw carrots as snacks and either 1 apple or an orange each day. Protein was mainly chicken breast because it's lower in fat than turkey (no beef, some occasional ham with fat sliced off - no salmon or other fatty fish because of the fat) and low fat versions of everything. I was usually hungry and so I gained weight. The food meant that the only way I could exercise was to carb load i.e. over eat.
Of course after my coronary bypass, my GP told me to just go even lower fat. He even told me to cut down on salt - I told him I was never adding salt to my food. He said there is more than we need in take-aways. I said what take-aways, I don't eat take-aways!
Then same  again after my Type 2 diagnosis. Only now, when I suggested coming off statins he said LDL couldn't be too low. So I told him zero LDL is not compatible with life!

I'm knocking the NHS for saying fat was bad, but carbs - even in things like fruit juice and baked potato were good. So I never thought to question whether a low fat food with added sugar was better for me than the traditional full fat version I had grown up with as a child. Or that eggs were bad, or that margarine was better than butter,  even though even the insects wouldn't eat it!

And I'm saying that your view that all a T2D needs to do is to follow the same advice that led to my T2D, is just wrong. Time will tell if  you are actually cured or just in remission, but I know that I can't allow myself to go back to eating that way.


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## everydayupsanddowns (Oct 3, 2021)

A gentle reminder to members that this forum is intended to offer support and encouragement to others, as they build their own unique diabetes-management approach. People can share their own experiences, but must be careful not to seem to be pressing their view or approach on others.

It is clear that some people are happier with the official NHS advice, and have success using those approaches. But it is also clear that those suggestions did not work for other members - so
if members are arriving and trying their best but not seeing the results they are looking for, it can be helpful to hear examples of slightly different approaches, and then to make up their own mind about the relative merits and risks involved for them as an individual.

There is no ‘one size fits all’ approach, because human beings are incredibly complex organisms, so there is no one ‘right’ approach - only the right approach for that person, at that time. 

Please be careful to construct your posts in a way that does not dismiss any other views, strategies or approaches, or suggest that these are somehow inherently ‘wrong’ - even if you know they would not work for, or even just appeal to you as an individual.


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## everydayupsanddowns (Oct 3, 2021)

jeanettem1 said:


> Aren’t there different kinds of carbs ?  Not all carbs are equal. My friend had type 1 and never restricted her carbs as in potatoes, pasta and rice. She gave talks in the hospital in Nottingham on how to manage type 1 and insulin.



Yes, some carbs (those in beans and pulses) are constructed differently, and not all of the total carb content is absorbed. And for some people, the presence of extra fibre (eg in wholegrain or seeded versions) can help to slow the absorption of other carbohydrates. 

However reaction to different types of carbs is very individual, and some people observe little if any difference in the speed of absorption of ‘brown’ vs ‘white’ versions.


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## travellor (Oct 3, 2021)

Pattidevans said:


> @travellor Could you point out which things please?  It was scrutinised by a GP (obviously) before being posted on their notice board.
> 
> IMHO and that of many qualified medical practitioners, the "Healthy eating" plate is responsible for a great deal of the obesity epidemic.  After being diagnosed with diabetes I was sent to the dietitian who advised me to eat from the Eatwell plate.  I gained 3 stone and it has taken a long time to get rid of it.
> 
> ...


With reference to the previous admin comment, the following is meant in the spirit of answering the question, rather than ignoring the points raised in it, and trying to be helpful by answering them, and hopefully modifying the issues with the poster especially.


No, the eatwell plate isn't responsible for anything, it's based on a great variety of research.
Not simply from a study from over half a century ago.
People can choose to blame it for their eating issues, but at the end of the day, it goes hand in hand with our own responsibly for eating, no one but ourselves puts the food in our mouths.
I simply calm it down now, and eat less when my weight drifts upwards.
As recommended alongside all other NHS advice.
"Eat less, move more"


Keys has just become a convenient whipping boy who is pulled out of the past, along with the 1860's Banting diet book.
If you look into whole heart health you will find a lot of much more recent information out there.
It's well worth keeping up to date with.

As to the poster.

No food can be eaten freely. Moderation is key.
There is never a suggestion snacks especially can be eaten freely.
Fish and oil can't be eaten freely, they are highly calorific, and farmed fish are high in pcp's and other contaminantions, and can even be carcinogenic in quantity and the current suggestion is to be limited to one or two a week.
Nuts are highly calorific, oily, very often heavily salted, and not normally included without the suggestion to check for allergies, especially if you are advising to suddenly switch to an unlimited amount daily.
Diet drinks are proving to be unhealthy as they are a chemical cocktail, and many on here suspect they also raise their BG, but personally I haven't seen that.
Sugar free jelly is a chemical cocktail by design.
Hard cheese has a portion size, but soft cheese is preferable, spreadable cheese has added sugar though, so not good.
As you say, in moderation. Not as an unlimited snack.
Is it worth mentioning the comment on low fat food may have added sugar, that advice is so out of date, probably at least by ten years, personally I use low fat caser dressing, it's got less carbs than full fat. (not my driver, less fat is good for me)
Things move on.
Fibre is important, and should be included.

Red meat is definitely food that should be limited on any diet, for many known reasons.

I looked at a lot of foods when I dieted, and a lot of research on the effects, and also what carbs, fats and proteins are in them.

Back to the nuts, without being specific, the highest carb nuts run up to 22g per 100g (Cashews)
That's a lot of carbs for an unlimited snack.

A Ginsters Steak and Ale pastie has less, at 19.6g
Asda breaded chicken is just 14g
Smoked haddock fish cakes come in at 15g
A bubble and squeak frittata comes in at just 7.6g

All per 100g

All processed food, but all more diabetic friendly than the nuts.

Even pizza starts at just on 30g carbs per 100g,
So 75g of pizza, or 100g of nuts for a snack?
One is your absolute avoid, one's eat unlimited?


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## trophywench (Oct 3, 2021)

The first thing the poster says to the patient is that everyone is different so here are some suggestions of where to start, not 'This is what you must eat'.

A bubble and squeak frittata?  - ie a basin of mashed spud, with some boiled leafy greens chucked in, enough to completely fill the bottom of your frying pan and fried in fat.  Ditto a fishcake being more mashed spud, bit of flaked fish, formed into portions with floury hands and again fried in fat.  Presumably you don't make em like that so you'd need a huge poster to print the whole recipe on at your surgery.  And you're also making the mistake imagining that everyone can cook stuff themselves and is interested in doing so - we know that some can't even be bothered to read the label on eg that tin of Baked Beans before eating it with a fryup or with half a large thick sliced loaf, toasted.

(Why on earth would residents of Penzance and thus registered with a Penzance GP (for whom the poster was produced) ever choose a Ginsters' pasty in the first place when there are far far better local ones available most places in Cornwall?  Or to eat a fishcake instead of a nice bit of fresh fish? ie NOT likely to be farmed)

Ancel Keys was comparatively recent in comparison to Type 1s being condemned to death by gradual starvation and failure of all their organs since treatment with exogenous insulin was not yet discovered 100 years ago, since he is post WW2 so not all that long before some of us was born!  In any case he was working for the Grain Board in USA trying to get Americans to consume more grain and grain products - which certainly will never assist anyone with diabetes and unsurprisingly was one of the things that helped fuel the increase in diabetes and obesity in the US.

Victorian banting (where banting meant a weight loss diet to achieve a tiny waist to show off the miles of taffeta in your crinoline, obviously) does not appear to me to have any connection with diabetes whatever.

The NHS RDA for carb is 260g for an adult which means I am eating - and have always eaten since before I left school in 1966 - only approx a third of that - and yet OMG here I still am at 71.  I do not believe I could eat any more carb than I do, because you'd have to force feed me like the awful way they used to with geese for pate de fois gras.  So for me, the NHS can stick their Eatwell plate where the sun don't shine, frankly.


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## travellor (Oct 3, 2021)

trophywench said:


> The first thing the poster says to the patient is that everyone is different so here are some suggestions of where to start, not 'This is what you must eat'.
> 
> A bubble and squeak frittata?  - ie a basin of mashed spud, with some boiled leafy greens chucked in, enough to completely fill the bottom of your frying pan and fried in fat.  Ditto a fishcake being more mashed spud, bit of flaked fish, formed into portions with floury hands and again fried in fat.  Presumably you don't make em like that so you'd need a huge poster to print the whole recipe on at your surgery.  And you're also making the mistake imagining that everyone can cook stuff themselves and is interested in doing so - we know that some can't even be bothered to read the label on eg that tin of Baked Beans before eating it with a fryup or with half a large thick sliced loaf, toasted.
> 
> ...


Nope, no idea what you are on about.
Is a cornish type 2 different to the rest of the country?
The advice is region specific??
These are off the shelf items from Asda.
No grease involved, just oven bake or microwave.
I don't believe Ginsters are banned from Cornwall to be honest.
Does everyone in Cornwall boycott them?
Avoid baked beans because people who can't read put them on toast? Really???
(Just saying, no criticism of your reading ability of labels, while you brought it up, baked beans are just under 12g to around 15g of carbs per 100g, so just "....nuts"?)
But, yes, I do agree the fryup is unhealthy, but that wasn't actually mentioned, so maybe that's another critique you have made that should be incorporated?


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## Pattidevans (Oct 4, 2021)

On a lighthearted note, no self respecting Cornish resident would eat a Ginster's pasty.  I was merely asking what in particular about the poster went against NHS advice. 

In the  middle ages they thought leeches and blood letting cured most things.  Science has moved on as have many thoughts on the so called Eatwell plate.  @travellor you are entitled to your opinion.  With respect I beg to differ.  Let us leave it there.


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## trophywench (Oct 4, 2021)

I always wondered who the heck they researched to land up with everyone over the age of 21's - ie adult - body, needing that amount of food a day !


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## Drummer (Oct 4, 2021)

everydayupsanddowns said:


> Yes, some carbs (those in beans and pulses) are constructed differently, and not all of the total carb content is absorbed. And for some people, the presence of extra fibre (eg in wholegrain or seeded versions) can help to slow the absorption of other carbohydrates.
> 
> However reaction to different types of carbs is very individual, and some people observe little if any difference in the speed of absorption of ‘brown’ vs ‘white’ versions.


I have found that peas and beans seem to have more carbs than listed - but I digest them - I have no problem with 'wind' after eating legumes, and my blood glucose goes up as though they have about 80 percent more carbs than they are supposed to provide.
A couple of others have reported that they experience the same thing. I suspect that there is a small subset of Humans who might have a gut biome or some other feature which causes this anomaly.
My meter shows that brown carbs are little different from white ones. The spike might be just slightly lower, but if anything it goes on longer.
Having followed GP's diet sheets many times and found they left me feeling weaker and heavier than before I started to struggle to follow them I believe people who tell me they are similarly affected eating low fat and high carb foods.


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## Drummer (Oct 4, 2021)

@trophywench On cold wet mornings recently I have been having bubble and squeak made with boiled swede, veges and eggs, along with bacon. It is a lovely golden colour and sets me up for the day along with coffee and cream.


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## travellor (Oct 4, 2021)

Pattidevans said:


> On a lighthearted note, no self respecting Cornish resident would eat a Ginster's pasty.  I was merely asking what in particular about the poster went against NHS advice.
> 
> In the  middle ages they thought leeches and blood letting cured most things.  Science has moved on as have many thoughts on the so called Eatwell plate.  @travellor you are entitled to your opinion.  With respect I beg to differ.  Let us leave it there.


You asked, I merely replied to your question with facts.
If you look into the reality of the eatwell plate you'll find it reflects the latest scientific thoughts of the time, and changes to keep up with the findings.
As you say though, let's leave it there.


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## Nayshiftin (Jan 18, 2022)

trophywench said:


> Well it's a certain fact that nobody (with a functioning brain on here) thinks that T2s should NOT get a meter and strips.  You know why the research caused the participants to become depressed?  Cos it was designed to do so!  Patients issued with meters and strips, told when to test.  When anyone noticed - hang on this cow between 2 loaves (not mattresses as unlikely to be high carb)  I've just eaten for lunch has just doubled my BG and asked 'how can I stop this happening?', as the Trial instructions said 'You are not allowed to change anything' - they got fed up just pointlessly recording numbers all the while when they could do nob all to change them, even it was supposed to be for research.
> 
> t's like offering to teach people to drive and then blindfolding them.  'Of course you can drive!  The NHS has taught you!'I]


I saw my diabetic nurse yesterday and she said why test? It will make no difference it will change all the time. I tried to explain and got nowhere. I also later mentioned the dawn phenomenon and she said how do I know and her answer was I am silly testing as I can change nothing by it. I have all my own equipment and I am trying to get blood glucose down. Her advice is to take metformin. which I don't want to as the only exercise I'd get would be to and from the loo. I can't go out on it even with the slow release I'm too embarrassed and stink the place with (apple tarts). So I refused that. Trying statins from her. struggling with diet changes. Need to get a diet I can eat enjoy and not too much fuss. Looked on here and got some things. Getting books from the library. Oh, and she is so worried I go back in six months. So I'm back to self-testing. They do not provide strips but it helps me, and I can at least acknowledge that some things are affecting me. I had carrot and coriander soup and thought just veg lots of water and my reading leaped to 13 mmol. I have scotch broth and that made it go down 1.3, then before the next meal, my blood sugar was as before so I am going to keep to what I have discovered is safe. She told me no soup mix as no barley and it is the barley I love. I am still going to have to lose weight too. However, I also need my blood sugars lower as I would like to prevent them.  I've still to pass the test but without knowing my speed I am sure going to fail. Better to know I'd say at least I can try to prevent it even if I don't succeed.


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