# The 5:2 Diet



## TheClockworkDodo (Apr 29, 2016)

Has anyone tried the 5:2 diet, or anything similar involving regular fasting or calorie restriction, not so much for weight loss as for improved general health?

We have been wondering whether this would be a good thing for R, as, while his BMI is OK, it's only just OK, and he's gradually acquiring a paunch.  He has a family history of stroke, heart disease, high blood pressure, and ME, so anything which would prevent his developing any of these would be a good idea (and the original point of the 5:2 diet, for anyone who missed the programme about it, is not that it reduces weight but that it reduces body fat and so reduces the risk of a number of major diseases).

However, R is hypoglycaemic, so low blood sugar is dangerous for him, as it would be for someone insulin-dependant.  Fasting altogether would be difficult if not impossible for him, and we're not sure how he'd cope with calorie restriction.  I'd be happy to do it with him, to support him, if we can find some way of making it work for people who are likely to hypo at any given moment (and make sure I don't lose weight with it, because I can't afford to!).

Has anyone tried it, especially anyone who's on insulin?  How did you get on with it?

(Posting this here rather than on weight loss board because I'm thinking in terms of healthy diet generally rather than losing weight).


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## Northerner (Apr 30, 2016)

Giving this a *bump*  The fasting days aren't complete fasts, are they, you do eat something?


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## Robin (Apr 30, 2016)

My husband and I have done this. I always put on weight in the autumn, and then need to lose a few pounds after the winter. Husband is only about half a stone overweight, but had a health scare last autumn, so was motivated to try. We don't do it strictly, you're supposed only to have 500 calories on the starve days, we aim for 800, then relax it a bit as we reach our targets, until perhaps for the two days a week we just don't eat snacks like chocolate or nuts, (or biscuits and cake in his case.) I tend to cook something like a chicken stir fry with lots of veg, or a veg filled omelette on 'starve' days, and soup for lunch, so it's the carb we tend to get rid of. If we find we've put on weight again, after a holiday or something, or if the weathers been too foul to walk or garden, we get stricter again. It's always Mondays and Thursdays for us.


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## Mark Parrott (Apr 30, 2016)

Ive got a couple of books with recipes for the fasting days. Very nice they are too.


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## TheClockworkDodo (Apr 30, 2016)

Thanks for the bump, Alan, and for your replies, Robin and Mark 

No, Alan, as Robin says, the fasting days are really just restricting calories a lot - I think women are supposed to aim for 500 and men for 600.  It's based on a Horizon programme done by Dr Michael Mosely - he found a lot of scientists who are researching calorie restriction/fasting as a way of reducing risk of heart disease, various cancers, alzheimers, and of course diabetes.  The calorie restriction seemed to work just as well as fasting altogether, and obviously much safer if you're on insulin.

Robin, do you find you hypo a lot when you do the fast days?  Do you not have any bolus insulin at all?  I can't remember, are you on a pump, or are you injecting?  I hypo so much anyway, and R gets hypo symptoms if he doesn't eat for more than a few hours, so that's the aspect of it which concerns me.  I'm on basal-bolus injections, Lantus and Novorapid.

Mark, if you've done the diet rather than just using some of the recipes, did you find it helpful in terms of feeling healthier?

Recipes are unlikely to be useful to us, unfortunately, because I have so many food intolerances, in a book of (say) 100 recipes I'm unlikely to find more than 1 I can eat, if that.  So for us it would have to be just cutting out carbs (and in R's case, the huge amounts of cheese he gets through!) and aiming for 600ish calories with the rest of what we eat.


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## Robin (Apr 30, 2016)

TheClockworkDodo said:


> Robin, do you find you hypo a lot when you do the fast days? Do you not have any bolus insulin at all? I can't remember, are you on a pump, or are you injecting


I'm on MDI, Juliet. I don't seem to hypo, I tend to calculate my Bolus a bit intuitively, rather than strictly scientifically! If I'm low carbing, I give myself a bit, maybe 2 units, because I know the protein will convert to glucose eventually. I think what I tend to do is not give myself the Bolus as early as I would if I was having a meal containing more carbs. (That's when I find the Libre useful, because if I look like I'm going low, I'll just have a couple of fruit pastilles if I need to later on.)


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## TheClockworkDodo (Apr 30, 2016)

Thanks, Robin - I tend to do the same myself, guesstimate calculations rather than detailed ones, as my diet is so limited anyway it doesn't change much.  I'm not sure I'd need any bolus for protein because I suspect the Lantus would cover it (I have one unit Novorapid for about 20g carbs).  I suspect I might have to lower the Lantus too, to avoid hypo-ing during the day.  I normally hypo about once a day on average - am supposed to be aiming for no more than 3 a week, but I seem to have a choice of readings around 3 or readings around 10, nothing in between.

I have been thinking about getting a Libre, so might be an idea to try that before I try to cut carbs too much!  They do sound helpful.  I just thought if I did the 5:2 diet with R it would help him to persevere with it.


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## Mark Parrott (May 1, 2016)

TheClockworkDodo said:


> Mark, if you've done the diet rather than just using some of the recipes, did you find it helpful in terms of feeling healthier?



No, I haven't done the full diet yet, but plan to if I can't shift anymore weight.  My weight loss has slowed right down now, but still need to shift a few more pounds.


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## TheClockworkDodo (May 1, 2016)

Thanks for getting back to me, Mark   If you do do it, please let me know - I'd be interested to know if it works for you.


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## TheClockworkDodo (Jun 10, 2016)

OK, so I found a body fat calculator - http://www.bmi-calculator.net/body-fat-calculator/metric-body-fat-calculator.php - and discovered that, although R's BMI is just about within the healthy range, in terms of body fat he is obese 

And although my BMI is at the low end of healthy and my body fat is just over the line from fitness to acceptable, the fact that I'm apple-shaped rather than pear-shaped (ie I have no bum to speak of ) means my waist-to-hip ratio is rather higher than it should be.

So we are having a calorie-restricted day.  I don't think it's feasible for us to do 2 days a week, with R's hypoglycaemia and my frequent hypos, so we're going to try just doing Fridays and see what happens.

I will test a bit more often than usual and obviously treat any hypos properly if I have to.  R will have a dried apricot for low-calorie fast-acting sugar if he starts to feel faint.  I'll let you know how we get on ...


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## Martin Canty (Jun 10, 2016)

I don't do 5:2 but I regularly do 16:8 (hours not days ) which fits in with how I have pretty much eaten my whole adult life, sometimes I fast for a whole day. I also only eat when hungry (except for the evening meal when I have to cook for my dear Wife). I find this, & LCHF works well for me, weight down to 170-175lb BG in pretty good control, BMI 23.5....

I don't calorie restrict, I carb restrict to anywhere between 10-40 a day

Personally I do great on this & prefer this regime, I am probably in the best shape of my life since my early 20's (apart form a few aches & pains associated with normal aging)


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## TheClockworkDodo (Jun 10, 2016)

Thanks Martin, that's interesting.  I wouldn't be able to cut carbs very much because I have such a limited diet already due to a huge range of food intolerances - there just wouldn't be much left I could eat (I can't tolerate much in the way of fat).  I also have a very fast metabolism - my BMI is about 20.5 and I think I eat more than R does (his BMI is 24.5, but his body fat is about 27%).

I used to fast for 24 hours sometimes before I was diabetic, but with both of us suffering from frequent hypos, I don't think either R or I would be able to go for 16 hours without eating now - in fact I think we'd have trouble going for 8 hours without eating!  We are splitting our 600 calories today between breakfast and dinner, with a more or less carb-free cal-free lunch - thought that was safer from the hypo point of view.

Readings so far today - 5.3 before breakfast, a worrying 9.1 three hours later  and 5.7 an hour after that (having done a small amount of gardening), before lunch.


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## Martin Canty (Jun 10, 2016)

Unfortunately, Juliet, I only know T1's through the forum so am learning about their experiences 2nd hand..... Food intolerances are such a pain, my only problem with foods are beets, I'd rather walk naked through stinging nettles than eat beets.....


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## Matt Cycle (Jun 10, 2016)

TheClockworkDodo said:


> OK, so I found a body fat calculator - http://www.bmi-calculator.net/body-fat-calculator/metric-body-fat-calculator.php - and discovered that, although R's BMI is just about within the healthy range, in terms of body fat he is obese
> 
> And although my BMI is at the low end of healthy and my body fat is just over the line from fitness to acceptable, the fact that I'm apple-shaped rather than pear-shaped (ie I have no bum to speak of ) means my waist-to-hip ratio is rather higher than it should be.
> 
> ...



According to that calculator my body fat percentage is just under 12% - apparently I'm an athlete.


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## TheClockworkDodo (Jun 10, 2016)

It's all that cycling 

R used to cycle every morning before we moved here, just for half an hour round the local area before starting work (he worked from home).  Now he has an hour's commute to his new job, so no time for cycling.  He does do other exercise, but he has been steadily getting fatter


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## TheClockworkDodo (Jun 10, 2016)

TheClockworkDodo said:


> Readings so far today - 5.3 before breakfast, a worrying 9.1 three hours later  and 5.7 an hour after that (having done a small amount of gardening), before lunch.



I was 5.7 again mid-afternoon, so that was fine, but then 4.1 before dinner, so thought I'd better have a dried apricot before my carb-less meal.  3 hours later I was 8.7   One dried apricot does not normally take me up that much - I'd expected to be back to 5.7!  So apparently there are carbs in salmon, brocoli, and cauliflower ... (yes, I know, probably my body converting them, but still, I wasn't expecting that much of a rise ).

I couldn't have injected more than half a unit for the meal though, or I'd have been well below 4, and I can live with being 8.7 for a bit so long as it goes down again - so the plus side of fasting = only two injections a day!


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## TheClockworkDodo (Jun 13, 2016)

Just an update - unfortunately my body had what I suspect was probably a delayed reaction to the fast   My BGL had gone up to 9.6 at bedtime so I had half a unit of novorapid with my 10g carbs (last 60 calories of the day, making a total of 590 cals altogether).  But then R had trouble waking me up in his morning/my night (he leaves for work at 7 and I often don't get up until 10 so he says goodbye when he gets up).  Didn't occur to him I might be seriously hypo, he thought I was just tired  but thankfully I woke up again and tested at 7.30, when I was 2.4 - presumably I had been lower earlier .  So I dealt with that and got BG up to sensible level, then when I got up and tested at 10.30 I was back down to 3.6, so a double whammy.  I was absolutely shattered all day and my BGL was in the 8s & 9s.

So I don't think I will be trying quite such a low calorie day again, or trying an evening meal without any carbs.  I will try another low cal day in a couple of weeks, just to make sure it really was the fasting which caused the problems, but I'll be a lot more cautious with it, and aim for 1000 calories rather than 600, with some carbs in my evening meal.

The good news is that R found it a lot easier than he expected (he managed 665 calories), and didn't have any hypo episodes at all, so he is willing to try again next week!


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## bilbie (Jun 14, 2016)

you may be better doing a basal test first, to make sure that's right?
https://mysugr.com/basal-rate-testing/

some T1's are finding the LCHF diet helps, somewhere between 20-130g carbs/day. As well as getting off the BG roller-coaster and weight loss, it reduces bolus insulin

But here is some info on fasting and how it works
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN-Fk


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## KookyCat (Jun 14, 2016)

I just tried the body fat calculator and came out mid fitness range.  Wasn't expecting that since these measures rarely work for a 6ft tall woman.  The BMI thing is a farce for tall women, it had me at a healthy weight when I had dangerously low body fat, so this one seems marginally more useful.  I tried the 5:2 before I was diagnosed because it was reported to help people with POTS, it didn't do anything at all for that but I did loose about 6kg and got shouted at because I couldnt really spare any at that point!  

Personally I'm not a fan of ultra low carb in the long term, but then I've got some complex issues with muscle retention and metabolism due to the other love of my life (EDS) so I'm hardly a good test case


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## TheClockworkDodo (Jun 14, 2016)

Thanks, Bilbie - yes, I had already thought it would be a good idea for me to do some basal testing.  But at the moment I hypo with 7 units Lantus and I have high readings with 6 units and this changes as frequently as the weather does so it would be good to have some settled weather before I do it ... 

I've also got various alternatives to my current basal lined up - half unit Lantus pen, trying Lantus in the morning instead of evening, trying Tresiba instead of Lantus - and I will at some point be  borrowing a CGM to see exactly what my blood sugar normally does during the night (the problem being that I suspect there is no "normally").

Unfortunately I can't eat high fat as I can't tolerate much in the way of fat at all.  I have to eat carbs if I want to maintain my weight, which I do - I only want to lose a bit of body fat, and not very much of that.  I was really doing this to try to encourage R to do it, but if he will continue without me I don't need to keep on with it.

Kooky - the metabolism thing sounds familiar - I suspect it is my peculiar metabolism which means I can't eat a low carb diet too.  If R manages to lose 6kg with the 5:2 we will be pleased though, so long as it is the fat around his middle which he loses!


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## Maz2 (Jun 18, 2016)

I have read Michael Moseley's book and used some of his recipes although not tried the complete diet.  They do make you feel quite full. I was told I was coming close to "high risk" in April and I have to have another test in July/August time.  I have cut my carb load following the excellent advice on here.  Thank goodness for this Forum.  I read in Michael's book that you should not go that low if you have a BMI of 21 or under.  Mine is about 21.3 ish I think.  I started off at 5 foot 6 in. and 9 stone 6 but, when I cut the carbs, I am now down to about 8 st 7 ish.  I still have fat around my stomach area though which points to insulin resistance I believe. I suspect that, even I have managed to bring the blood sugars down and I won't know until I have had the next test, I am stuck with being careful for life now. I have always carried "belly fat" but it has not caused any problems until now. God knows what I am going to do if it is worse when I have the next test.


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## HOBIE (Jun 19, 2016)

TheClockworkDodo said:


> Has anyone tried the 5:2 diet, or anything similar involving regular fasting or calorie restriction, not so much for weight loss as for improved general health?
> 
> We have been wondering whether this would be a good thing for R, as, while his BMI is OK, it's only just OK, and he's gradually acquiring a paunch.  He has a family history of stroke, heart disease, high blood pressure, and ME, so anything which would prevent his developing any of these would be a good idea (and the original point of the 5:2 diet, for anyone who missed the programme about it, is not that it reduces weight but that it reduces body fat and so reduces the risk of a number of major diseases).
> 
> ...


Good luck with this


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## TheClockworkDodo (Jun 20, 2016)

Thanks, Hobie 

And good luck to you too, Maz - hope the next test shows your BGL has gone down.

R is doing fine and is losing weight  - hopefully also fat, but we haven't checked that again yet.

I seem to be completely unable to cut calories or carbs - I tried around 1200 calories on Friday, twice the amount of the previous week, and had the double whammy of hypo in the night and hypo first thing Saturday morning once again   But as I said, I don't want to lose any weight, and my body fat level is acceptable, so it's not a big problem, so long as R will keep going without me joining in.


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## TheClockworkDodo (Aug 6, 2016)

Just a quick update - we re-did R's weight and body fat calculations today.  He has lost 11 lb in weight, and his BMI has gone from 24.55 to 23.53.  More importantly, his body fat has gone from about 27 to about 24, so from obese body fat levels to acceptable ones 

He hasn't done a fast day every week (he gave it a miss on holiday, or if we were going out) but he has done one most weeks, he's made no changes to the exercise he does, and the only other change he's made to his diet is that he's now eating a tomato every day with his lunch instead of a cake.

So although I had to give up on it, it does seem to be very successful for him


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## KookyCat (Aug 7, 2016)

Brilliant stuff, I actually think it has another potentially unintended but welcome impact from what I've seen.  We tend to get into routines with food (especially lunches) and just eat what we always eat.  The fasting side of things helps break eating habits too which can be very useful, more mindful eating I suppose, although I was trying not to use that phrase since it's so fashionable .


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## bilbie (Aug 7, 2016)

These J Fung videos on fasting are worth watching
https://www.youtube.com/user/drjasonfung/videos


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## Radders (Aug 7, 2016)

I think it's the Lantus that would make fasting difficult. I am convinced that my basal insulin requirement is decreased for roughly 24 hours following a day when I eat under 100g carbs. I'm on a pump so I can easily adjust my basal insulin but with Lantus I believe it takes days for any adjustment to reach its full effect.


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