# Gary McKinnon



## StephenM (Dec 15, 2012)

Computer hacker Gary McKinnon is now not going to face charges in the UK. Whilst I think it was right that his extradition to the US was blocked I tend not to agree with this. I know he has Asperger?s syndrome that combines high intelligence with obsessive behaviour. To maintain global respect this country need to do through due process. If at the end of it he is deemed unfit trough a mental health condition this is fair enough but not to do is wrong. As for his mother calling for a pardon from President Obama this is just over the top. Mental and medical conditions cannot be an excuse for breaking the law. If he had been tried in the UK for his criminal actions this would be fair enough and I think the US would respect this. He then would also ultimately be allowed to leave the UK.


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## mcdonagh47 (Dec 15, 2012)

StephenM said:


> Computer hacker Gary McKinnon is now not going to face charges in the UK. Whilst I think it was right that his extradition to the US was blocked I tend not to agree with this. I know he has Asperger?s syndrome that combines high intelligence with obsessive behaviour. To maintain global respect this country need to do through due process. If at the end of it he is deemed unfit trough a mental health condition this is fair enough but not to do is wrong. As for his mother calling for a pardon from President Obama this is just over the top. Mental and medical conditions cannot be an excuse for breaking the law. If he had been tried in the UK for his criminal actions this would be fair enough and I think the US would respect this. He then would also ultimately be allowed to leave the UK.



And lets hope he is banned from the internet for the rest of his life.


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## AlisonM (Dec 15, 2012)

It's far more likely he'll be recruited by MI something to go on doing what he was doing.


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## Caroline (Dec 16, 2012)

StephenM said:


> Computer hacker Gary McKinnon is now not going to face charges in the UK. Whilst I think it was right that his extradition to the US was blocked I tend not to agree with this. I know he has Asperger?s syndrome that combines high intelligence with obsessive behaviour. To maintain global respect this country need to do through due process. If at the end of it he is deemed unfit trough a mental health condition this is fair enough but not to do is wrong. As for his mother calling for a pardon from President Obama this is just over the top. Mental and medical conditions cannot be an excuse for breaking the law. If he had been tried in the UK for his criminal actions this would be fair enough and I think the US would respect this. He then would also ultimately be allowed to leave the UK.




I agree. I have an 8 year old we are waiting for formal diagnosis for, the porfessionals think he has Autism and Aspergers. Having obsereved him for so long I know he knows right from wrong. He is a very intelegent and very obsessive boy, so I do have some understanding of Gary McKinnon. People with Aspergers and/or autism don't have the social skills the rest of us do.

In all of this no one has thought this young man has done the American Governent a favour. His intentions were innocent, so think of the damage some one with malicious intent could and would have done on getting into the systems.


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## J.Y.Kelly (Dec 16, 2012)

StephenM said:


> Computer hacker Gary McKinnon is now not going to face charges in the UK. Whilst I think it was right that his extradition to the US was blocked I tend not to agree with this. I know he has Asperger’s syndrome that combines high intelligence with obsessive behaviour. To maintain global respect this country need to do through due process. If at the end of it he is deemed unfit trough a mental health condition this is fair enough but not to do is wrong. As for his mother calling for a pardon from President Obama this is just over the top. Mental and medical conditions cannot be an excuse for breaking the law. If he had been tried in the UK for his criminal actions this would be fair enough and I think the US would respect this. He then would also ultimately be allowed to leave the UK.



Having Asberger's syndrome doesn't automatically make you intelligent or unintelligent. Having Asberger's usually means you become, amongst other things, obsessed with, or fixated on, a particular subject. These are usually things that non-sufferers wouldn't find interesting. The caretaker where I used to work was completely obsessed with the military, and could tell you the correct uniform and insignia of any of our armed forces. My cousin has the syndrome, and he is obsessed with motorcycle parts. He can't ride, but has a flat full of miscellaneous motorcycle pieces. He is unable to work. There are varying degrees of the syndrome, but one thing underlines the condition, and that is that they don't relate to the world as we would. Everything is taken literally. If you said to my cousin "I was only pulling your leg", he wouldn't understand that as his leg wasn't touched.
Of all the people who jump to conclusions about a condition they aren't familiar with, diabetes sufferers should know better, especially as this group suffer as much as anyone with the ill informed opinions of others. The judiciary had the facts laid before them, and were able to make an informed judgement based upon medical submissions. No-one on here has the right to judge on hearsay.
Goodbye, Kelly.


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## Northerner (Dec 16, 2012)

J.Y.Kelly said:


> ...The judiciary had the facts laid before them, and were able to make an informed judgement based upon medical submissions. No-one on here has the right to judge on hearsay.
> Goodbye, Kelly.



Kelly, what you say is absolutely correct, but please don't leave because you are at odds with one or two opinions. In any forum, there are bound to be people whose statements jar, but don't forget the many people who share your position. As with diabetes, it's important to share your personal knowledge and experiences to correct misinformation and to educate.


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## am64 (Dec 16, 2012)

I recruited a customer of mine to become a volunteer in my shop ...well he was in the shop so often he might as well help out ....NOW all my book section is in alphabetical order ...as is all my dvd and cd's ...he looks after all my giftaid filing and im going to get him involved in keeping all my other records up to date ...he checks out values of items on the internet from his phone...he doesnt have access to the computer.
Mr A collects travel books, football shorts and questions. He loves asking his questions to my customers ..they are very hard !! if anyone needs any public transport info he knows all the timetables ...hes part of my team and a great asset to running the shop .
Mr A has recently developed T2 and is just getting to grips with the confusing advice he has been given ...


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## bev (Dec 16, 2012)

Hi all,

I know the effects of Aspergers as my Ex husband has it. There are varying degrees or levels of the syndrome and not one person is the same as another - it is very individual. A person with AS can be taught what is 'right' and 'wrong' but what they cant do for themselves is work it out without help a lot of the time. A person with AS is normally excellent at following the rules - but where does it say anywhere that looking for UFO's on a Government website is illegal? It doesnt - so their argument would be no-one told them and it isnt written down anywhere. Why would they say this? Because there is a lack of 'common sense' and because they can sometimes have trouble 'seeing the bigger picture'. And they very often are very literal so if there is no rule then they havent broken it! Most of us would know that it was illegal to do what he did but we dont have AS.

GM probably had no idea that his actions would create such a problem - it was probably done without any malice or intention to cause trouble. Quite literally he was 'looking for UFO's' and will be confused by everyones reactions.

People with AS can 'learn' how to behave from those around them but it doesnt come naturally to them and often they are confused and puzzled as to why people react in an emotional or angry manner because they dont 'do' emotional outbursts other than show anger.

In order to 'break the law' one has to have an understanding and a concept of what that means. In the absence of either one cannot be held accountable due to a mental health problem if it has been diagnosed by a Medical Professional.

It is easy to sit back and judge the actions of others - but would you say the same about someone who has 'downs syndrome' - if they did the same thing? Probably not - as this is a more visible disability and therefore your perception is likely to be that the person cannot help their behaviour. That AS is 'invisible' should not allow you to ignore it as a disability and as we all should know on here - some disabilities are invisible - Alex looks like every other 14 year old boy - who just happens to have a life-threatening condition that makes him disabled - and the General Public would have absolutely no idea that he is different.

GM is entitled to be protected as he is vulnerable and unable to make informed decisions about certain issues - and the experts who have deemed it  inappropriate to have him go to trial have done so for very good reason. Bev

p.s. Most individuals with AS are extremely intelligent and high functioning which can add to the confusion that someone with a disability should somehow behave and be seen to be different - and they look perfectly normal.


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## ypauly (Dec 16, 2012)

J.Y.Kelly said:


> Having Asberger's syndrome doesn't automatically make you intelligent or unintelligent. Having Asberger's usually means you become, amongst other things, obsessed with, or fixated on, a particular subject. These are usually things that non-sufferers wouldn't find interesting. The caretaker where I used to work was completely obsessed with the military, and could tell you the correct uniform and insignia of any of our armed forces. My cousin has the syndrome, and he is obsessed with motorcycle parts. He can't ride, but has a flat full of miscellaneous motorcycle pieces. He is unable to work. There are varying degrees of the syndrome, but one thing underlines the condition, and that is that they don't relate to the world as we would. Everything is taken literally. If you said to my cousin "I was only pulling your leg", he wouldn't understand that as his leg wasn't touched.
> Of all the people who jump to conclusions about a condition they aren't familiar with, diabetes sufferers should know better, especially as this group suffer as much as anyone with the ill informed opinions of others. The judiciary had the facts laid before them, and were able to make an informed judgement based upon medical submissions. No-one on here has the right to judge on hearsay.
> Goodbye, Kelly.


So you disagree with due process? As nobody had judged anybody, let alone on just hearsay. All Stephen said was is that for our nation to maintain some credibility due process should be followed and if it was his condition would not just be a consideration within that process but would be a major consideration at the end of it.


Interestingly A while back I took an online test and the score was borderline, having just re-taken the test I scored 33 this would indicate a score that's a bit for the want of a better word aspergy. I took the test here. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aqtest.html  I have no idea if it's accurate.


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## mcdonagh47 (Dec 16, 2012)

scored 13.
Aspergers is about to be abolished in the near future and its sufferers reclassified as Autism Level 1 to 10 etc.
as for this McKinnon chap, IF he understands the concept of "hacking" he is prima facie guilty and should stand trial without any excuses being made about his condition.


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## Northerner (Dec 16, 2012)

I scored 20.


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## bev (Dec 16, 2012)

mcdonagh47 said:


> scored 13.
> Aspergers is about to be abolished in the near future and its sufferers reclassified as Autism Level 1 to 10 etc.
> as for this McKinnon chap, IF he understands the concept of "hacking" he is prima facie guilty and should stand trial without any excuses being made about his condition.



Hi mcdonagh47,

GM would be able to understand the concept of 'hacking' - but only after it is explained to him - and after the event - and would not have been his intention to 'break' this rule. It most likely will have been done without any thought to the consequences of his actions as he would have 'needed' to have completed this task as it was his latest 'special interest' and that would have been his only focus and concern - hence the decision not to send him to trial - he would have had to have been aware that a) he was actually guilty of hacking and b) he was able to understand that there would be consequences to his actions c) this was a premeditated act. As he wasnt aware of any of them he cant be held accountable due to his mental health condition. Bev


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## bev (Dec 16, 2012)

Northerner said:


> I scored 20.



Hi Northerner,

I wouldnt take any notice of this so called scoring system. It takes a long time (sometimes years) for an adult to be diagnosed with AS. Mostly because the person with AS doesnt 'see' his/her own failings or traits. Example - if a person with AS is asked if they are spontaneous they will mostly reply 'yes'. In reality - they might have once in the whole of their lives acted in a spontaneous manner - and to them it means they can honestly answer with a 'yes' - but the question to most people would mean 'are you generally a spontaneous person' and that would give a different result clearly! I do despair when I see these sorts of 'diagnosis' tools as they are nonsense and an expert in the field would not take a scoring like this seriously - it takes a whole lot more anecdotal evidence in order to make a true diagnosis.Bev


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## Northerner (Dec 16, 2012)

bev said:


> Hi Northerner,
> 
> I wouldnt take any notice of this so called scoring system. It takes a long time (sometimes years) for an adult to be diagnosed with AS. Mostly because the person with AS doesnt 'see' his/her own failings or traits. Example - if a person with AS is asked if they are spontaneous they will mostly reply 'yes'. In reality - they might have once in the whole of their lives acted in a spontaneous manner - and to them it means they can honestly answer with a 'yes' - but the question to most people would mean 'are you generally a spontaneous person' and that would give a different result clearly! I do despair when I see these sorts of 'diagnosis' tools as they are nonsense and an expert in the field would not take a scoring like this seriously - it takes a whole lot more anecdotal evidence in order to make a true diagnosis.Bev



Totally agree bev, I was more interested in the types of questions asked.


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## ypauly (Dec 16, 2012)

Wow I was hoping for a few scores higher than mine lol


EDITED TO ADD It's only a bit of fun bev. (I hope) lol


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## Northerner (Dec 16, 2012)

Regarding Gary, I think it is such a shame that it can take 10 years from someone's life to make a decision in these cases.


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## mcdonagh47 (Dec 16, 2012)

bev said:


> Hi mcdonagh47,
> 
> GM would be able to understand the concept of 'hacking' - but only after it is explained to him - condition. Bev



Hi bev,
this is the message McKinnon left on one of the US Army computers he hacked into ...suggests he knew very well what he was doing ...and that his hacking was politically motivated to boot ....

“US foreign policy is akin to Government-sponsored terrorism these days … It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year … I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels … “

Let's read that again , "I will contiune to disrupt at the highest levels". Guilty as charged.

According to some the reason why he wasn't extradited by Theresa May in October,was because of a concerted and long running campaign in his favour in the Daily Mail.
And he isn't a innocent young chap , he is 42.


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## bev (Dec 16, 2012)

mcdonagh47 said:


> Hi bev,
> this is the message McKinnon left on one of the US Army computers he hacked into ...suggests he knew very well what he was doing ...and that his hacking was politically motivated to boot ....
> 
> ?US foreign policy is akin to Government-sponsored terrorism these days ? It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year ? I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels ? ?
> ...



Hi macdonagh47,

The most qualified experts in the world have been involved in this case. Clearly - and after much investigation - it was felt that GM's 'involvement' in this issue was that of a vulnerable person who was not aware of the consequences of his actions. A person with AS mostly stops 'maturing' in certain areas around the age of 11 - so clearly not dealing with a fully mature 42 year old. To be able to understand the meaning behind and the intentions of the words used by GM one would have to have a full understanding of AS. People with AS often have an 'odd' sense of humour - and (I am guessing at this as I dont actually know the details) I would think this was his sense of humour. Most of the General Public wouldnt take this risk - but a person with AS has no 'risk-taking' off-button and is therefore unaware that this method of communication on this level is inappropriate.

Most of us read those words and feel disturbed by them - a person with AS wouldnt - which is the whole problem with his condition and making him face trial for it - he isnt capable of understanding - hence the decision made by the experts involved.Bev


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## mcdonagh47 (Dec 16, 2012)

bev said:


> Hi macdonagh47,
> 
> The most qualified experts in the world have been involved in this case. - hence the decision made by the experts involved.Bev



The decision not to extradite him to the USA was not made by "experts" it was made by a politician, the Home Secrtetary, Theresa May.
And she made it not on the bais of his condition but because he had made the serious threat to kill himself if he was extradited to face trial. And that suicide threat said Mrs. May meant that extradition would breach his human rights !

Check it out ...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19962844


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