# What Now For Labour?



## Diabeticliberty (Jul 19, 2016)

I have just watched Labour MP Jess Phillips interviewed on Channel 4 News looking very dejected about the fact that Ms Eagle has dropped out of the Labour Leadership Challenge. Ms Eagle has suggested she has done so to allow a straight run for her co runner Owen Smith in standing against Comrade Corbyn. Jess Phillips said she will stands squarely behind Owen Smith but appeared to have some some difficulty keeping a straight face. It nay not however be such a straight run as a major financial donor to the Labour Party has suggested he may mount a legal challenge to Comrade Corbyn's auto entry into the Leadership battle as Comrade Corbyn appears unable to enjoy the support of 51 of his Parliamentary Party. Will it be 10 years in the political wilderness. If not then what next tor Labour? 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36838808


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## grovesy (Jul 19, 2016)

I have thought and still think since all this started there will be a split in the party!


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## Diabeticliberty (Jul 19, 2016)

In the strange times we find ourselves in I really don't know where any of us are going. I know that the world is constantly evolving but I don't feel a million miles off target in suggesting that events appear to have overtaken it and have lapped it about 3 times


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## zuludog (Jul 19, 2016)

My left wing pedigree is as good as the next man's
My Grandfather was in the Clydeside Soviet; my father was a trade union member for all his working life; during the 1970s I supported all the correct causes, and for years I voted Labour religiously in both local and general elections
I was absolutely happy when Tony Blair got in with that landslide majority in 1997. Yes! I thought! he's a young man; he's got ideas, and he's got a massive majority. Since then it's all turned to crap.

The Labour Party used to have strong characters, like Harold Wilson, Tony Benn, and others. Now it is a sort of middle class, London based debating society, with no understanding of, or connection to its traditional supporters, as shown by Gordon's Gaffe and What's Her Name's Tweet
Jeremy Corbyn gives the best caricature of a sociology lecturer from a red brick university that I've seen for a long time. He seems to run Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition like a sixth form debating society

Almost as soon as I heard of them, I changed my allegiance to UKIP.
As with the Referendum and other things, the Media have misjudged things. They think that support for UKIP comes from the right of the Conservative Party. They're wrong, it comes from disillusioned Labour supporters

And now to come back to the start of this post; what now for Labour? Well, I neither know nor care; my hope, and that of many other UKIP/Leave people I know is that something similar to UKIP will emerge and continue

Alright; here's my opinion, not that I'm so bothered any more

The Right - on, trendy  metropolitan middle class labour Party members think that Jeremy Corbyn is wonderful; they could not have made up a better Socialist/Labour Party leader if they'd tried.
But Labour Party supporters across the rest of the county know that with him in charge they do not stand a cat - in - hell's chance of ever forming a government, and it will be a close call even to lead the Oppositon. But how they solve the issue is their problem.


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## Redkite (Jul 20, 2016)

Zuludog you make some interesting points.  Although given that UKIP is a single issue party which has achieved its aim, I wonder who UKIP supporters will now vote for in a general election?  Its supporters came from left and right, so I suspect there would no agreement among them on policy issues about employment, welfare, etc etc.

When I was at university in the 1980s, the Labour Party was "properly working class", and the intellectual political left wingers tended to be either Liberals (or actually the SDP which had split off from Labour) or Socialist Workers Party.  It was the SWP that you always saw going on marches and waving their banners around.  I too voted for Tony Blair's government, and I think it achieved some good things initially, all now totally eclipsed by the Iraq fiasco.  But nowadays it seems to me that the SWP has taken over the Labour Party.  Yes there are some good policies being suggested, but ordinary traditional Labour voters won't vote for people who just don't have anything in common with them.  There is a whole swathe of people who feel they have no representation at all.

As for the Labour leadership election, what a farce!  Angela Eagle was always just going to be the fall guy, that was totally obvious, while meanwhile someone with more chance of success would step out of the shadows.  But JC will almost certainly be voted back in as leader because he enjoys high support from party members, so the only solution will be a split and a new party.  So there will be JC's Labour, with intellectuals and SWP, and a new party with a neo-liberal outlook.  Still nothing for traditional working class voters to identify with.  And therefore making another Tory government almost certain.....


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## Northerner (Jul 20, 2016)

Redkite said:


> So there will be JC's Labour, with intellectuals and SWP,


This media labelling and accentuation on 'entryists', radicals, 'SWP' etc. is massively misleading and easily disproved. This is worth a read:

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/07/far-left-entryist-takeover-labour-party/


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## trophywench (Jul 20, 2016)

Well I'm totally gobsmacked at how you vote for a leader of the Labour party.  Sign on the dotted line and after about 5 minutes 'membership' thus granted - vote for whoever you like as Leader.  (providing they have put their name forward) So if you happen to be a staunch Tory or staunch anything other than Labour - sign up and exercise your vote for the most useless one deliberately, knowing that with a useless leader they can never be any sort of opposition against what we currently have - whomsoever they may be.

I expect you might have difficulty joining if your name happens to be Philip May or Mrs Hammond - but if you happen to be Joe Bloggs and True Blue - whose going to spot that you aren't genuine?

What I can't understand particularly is - where are these vast masses who wholeheartedly voted Corbyn IN in the first place - and why are they not currently publicising all the reasons why they believe he's so bloody brilliant?


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## Redkite (Jul 20, 2016)

Northerner said:


> This media labelling and accentuation on 'entryists', radicals, 'SWP' etc. is massively misleading and easily disproved. This is worth a read:
> 
> https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/07/far-left-entryist-takeover-labour-party/



I did see a lot of SWP banners at the JC rallies when all the MP resignations started.  It does feel like that group is "infiltrating" the party for their own ends.  But that's just what the TV cameras showed...


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## grovesy (Jul 20, 2016)

trophywench said:


> Well I'm totally gobsmacked at how you vote for a leader of the Labour party.  Sign on the dotted line and after about 5 minutes 'membership' thus granted - vote for whoever you like as Leader.  (providing they have put their name forward) So if you happen to be a staunch Tory or staunch anything other than Labour - sign up and exercise your vote for the most useless one deliberately, knowing that with a useless leader they can never be any sort of opposition against what we currently have - whomsoever they may be.
> 
> I expect you might have difficulty joining if your name happens to be Philip May or Mrs Hammond - but if you happen to be Joe Bloggs and True Blue - whose going to spot that you aren't genuine?
> 
> What I can't understand particularly is - where are these vast masses who wholeheartedly voted Corbyn IN in the first place - and why are they not currently publicising all the reasons why they believe he's so bloody brilliant?


I would not presume that would be the case last year a well known Radio Talk Show host joined without any checks till he pointed it might to them! He did ask one of the spokes people in the last few weeks what vetting of new members they were doing, they did not answer the question!


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## Northerner (Jul 20, 2016)

trophywench said:


> What I can't understand particularly is - where are these vast masses who wholeheartedly voted Corbyn IN in the first place - and why are they not currently publicising all the reasons why they believe he's so bloody brilliant?





Redkite said:


> I did see a lot of SWP banners at the JC rallies when all the MP resignations started.  It does feel like that group is "infiltrating" the party for their own ends.  But that's just what the TV cameras showed...


Erm, have you seen who controls the media in this country? There is definitely a narrative going on. What people seem to be missing is the fact that UKIP were never going to amount to anything - they won a majority of seats in Europe, Jeremy was never going to win the leadership - from being almost virtually unknown over 250,000 people voted for him - and that includes a majority of CLPs and long-term members, not just the three-pounders from last year. Now we have voted to leave the EU, which no-one imagined could happen but it did. The electorate is not voting as they have in the past, I think the banking crisis and crash changed all that - do you remember how virtually EVERY established institution was found to be riddled with fraud and corruption after the crash - the whole financial services industry kept throwing up greater and greater evils on a weekly basis. We've had Hillsborough, Chilcot, Savile and the entertainment industry...it just goes on and on!

There are clearly elements in the PLP who were never prepared to even give Corbyn a chance, and now they have produced this pointless coup at the same time as saying they need to be the effective opposition that Brexit demands. I wouldn't mind if they had some great successor waiting in the wings, but they had nobody, it seems the whole process was simply to drive Corbyn out. Maybe if they had put the same energies into supporting him and using their 'skills' to fill in where he lacked the managerial capability things could have worked out differently.

All they've succeeded in doing is making Corbyn appear toxic, despite him being one of the few honourable men in parliament. No-one who stood in opposition to Corbyn last year would have won the next election because they would have continued with the same old policies that lost them the last two. They still haven't found anyone, unfortunately. I quite like Owen Smith, but I think it would have been better for him to become better known by the public over the next couple of years rather than being thrust into this contest so early.

Now, I find myself not being able to trust any of Corbyn's opponents in what they say, because they all, without fail, have repeated what they know to be lies in their quest to undermine him  

Regarding the membership and method of voting - it's well known that the vast majority of Tory members belong to a particularly narrow demographic that is quite unrepresentative of the country as a whole, and indeed there seems to be incredibly little said about the fact that the whole party is funded by a very small number of self-interested individuals and corporations. The attempt to reduce the potential Corbyn electorate by banning members since 12th January, saying they need to show long-term commitment and they need to be properly vetted - then allowing people to pay £25 to vote just defies any sort of logic! 

Corbyn was elected by people who probably didn't vote (or didn't want to vote if they'd had a decent alternative) for their current Labour MP in many cases (certainly by no means all though), so there is a huge disconnect between the members and the PLP. Either the party will split or we will get a whole host of new faces up for election next time around. Even Angela Eagle's CLP voted 'no-confidence' in her!


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## Jonsi (Jul 20, 2016)

Corbyn is just too 'right on Labour' to make a fist of it in today's politics. To say on The Last Leg that he was a 7.5 for Remain on an In/Out referendum just wasn't good enough or Leaderlike enough from the elected Leader of the opposition. The Labour Party membership stands at a little over 500,000 out of which he got a proper majority, compare this to the Tory Party's measly 150,000 who didn't even vote for their Leader (mind you neither did anyone else vote for her as PM but now she's running the country and calling the shots). More people vote for BGT, Strictly and X-Factor than vote for party politics. Even in the 2015 elections voting numbers were skewed: Greens 1.1m votes = 1 seat; UKIP 3.8m votes = 1 seat; SNP 1.4 m votes = 56 seats.

the LibDems are (always have been) ineffectual, Labour seem to be going down the same path, UKIP are the turkeys who voted for Christmas and the Tories are split (Remain/Leave).

It doesn't matter who you vote for the government always gets in so maybe it's right for a new Centrist <sp?> political group to emerge


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## Northerner (Jul 20, 2016)

Corbyn was actually the only person who was being realistic and honest about the EU - much preferable to the lies being bandied about by the so-called 'passionate' advocates on either side. I suspect he actually persuaded quite a lot of people that, on balance, it was better to remain. It seems to have been totally brushed over that it was Cameron who failed to persuade even half of Tory supporters to back remain - Corbyn persuaded two thirds of Labour supporters. He got virtually no coverage anyway, because the press and the media weren't interested in the campaigns, they were drooling over the blue on blue squabbles. We are poorly served, I feel, by our media, who seem to have to turn everything into a soundbite or a fight. May's reshuffle was described as 'bloody and brutal' - no it wasn't, what happened in Nice was bloody and brutal  It's true that more votes get cast for reality TV shows, but this is actual reality with real consequences for people, but it still get's treated like a personality contest


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## Diabeticliberty (Jul 20, 2016)

With respect i have difficulty seeing even the remotest sliver of honour in offering support to the IRA, Hamas and other terrorist organisations. If this support had been offered as an error of judgement then I suppose I could accept this as human error if Comrade Corbyn would only now denounce these organisations. This is something however that he still flatly refuses to do. The Falkland Islandsor to give them the name that Comrade Corbyn might prefer them to be called, The Malvinas has a population of islanders who's grandparents, parents and most of their children were born. British soldiers lost their lives in retaking these islands following the Argentinian invasion. The Falkland Islanders in a referendum voted completely unanimously to remain part of Britain. Mr Corbyn has expressed an opinion that he would not be opposed to handing the islands to Argentina. Reading through what I have written here I see no honour whatsoever 

Let us consider democratic Parliament Acts. I have no wish to have my country consumed in a nuclear fireball of 100000000 degrees. I do not support nuclear proliferation. I do not want to see billions of pounds wasted on a deterrent that does not deter. The thing is though I do not wish to be attacked by Russia, China, North Korea, Iran or indeed any other nation who may be diametrically opposed to ideals of my own nation. If renewing our own completely independent nuclear deterrent is necessary to achieve this and our own democratically elected parliament has a vote on this matter and votes overwhelmingly to renew Trident then that is where we are. Mr Corbyn went against the official stand of his own political party and voted against the renewal. If this is done as a matter of conscience then I fully respect him for it. To make the matter a free vote so that he personally can vote how he chooses smacks to me of political opportunism.

Ipsos Mori polls as of yesterday when I started this thread showed the the Labour Party in its current format with a rating of 30% and the Conservative Government with a rating of 38% perhaps Ipsos Mori, the media, the Parliamentary Labour Party and the man in the moon are all colluding to make Mr Corbyn look like quite a bad egg but I think this fanciful thinking from his hardcore supporters who desperately want him portrayed in a glowing light. The things is though he has to accept some responsibility for the woes of his own party. He is at the helm and the ship sinks or reaches safe port under his captaincy. 180 of his PLP are already undertaking lifeboat emergency training.

Politics is indeed a strange animal. It would appear that Mr Corbyn commands more support from the government than from his own PLP why this could be is a complete mystery to me? In her first PMQ's since taking office she wished Jeremy an extended length of time in his role as Leader Of Her Majesty's Opposition Party. I thought that this was very generous of her. Most of my business competitors want to see me out of business this afternoon as they see me as a threat to their relative businesses  This country needs a strong opposition party to hold the government to account for iffy decisions. The government needs to fear that if it makes long term errors then it will be turfed out at the next general election and the opposition party elected into power. Theresa May does not appear to me to be in the least bit frightened. In my opinion she is laughing her diabetic knickers off


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## trophywench (Jul 20, 2016)

I think the 'state of the meeja' has been beautifully and neatly demonstrated by the announcement that Pippa Middleton has got herself engaged to the brother of a BGT (or something) contestant.  See - he quite obviously has a total and utter lack of IMPORTANCE or presence, in ANYBODY's life - other than for that.

Whish to me - is actually totally brilliant - two nobodies are going to get married.  Well great! - I sincerely hope that they are in love and their whole lives will pass without a public following or any interference in their private lives, from outside.  (Nice ring though!  LOL)


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## zuludog (Jul 20, 2016)

So where are we up to? Well, I have a some comments

JONSI  I knew that our election system was distorted, for want of a better word, but I hadn't realised how bad it was till you quoted the figures. It really is time we had proportional representation, or something like that
Perhaps we need to drastically reduce the number of constituencies in Scotland; that would make them squeal even more!
And I have long thought that there should be 'floating' or 'independent' MPs in the sense that they do not actually have a constituency to represent, even though they belong to one party or another

On the present showing, and for the forseeable future I don't fancy voting for any of the 2 or 3 established parties
Perhaps as I have suggested, some kind of populist party will emerge from UKIP

So if you want to vote in the election for the Labour Party leader it will cost you £25 ?! 
Paying to vote; that's an interesting concept from a socialist party!


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## grovesy (Jul 20, 2016)

zuludog said:


> So where are we up to? Well, I have a some comments
> 
> JONSI  I knew that our election system was distorted, for want of a better word, but I hadn't realised how bad it was till you quoted the figures. It really is time we had proportional representation, or something like that
> Perhaps we need to drastically reduce the number of constituencies in Scotland; that would make them squeal even more!
> ...


The commons voted against a bill from the Green Party member introducing a bill to reduce the voting age to 16 and change the system, just this afternoon!


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## Northerner (Jul 20, 2016)

Totally agree about proportional representation, the current system is farcical


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## Ljc (Jul 20, 2016)

Northerner said:


> Totally agree about proportional representation, the current system is farcical


I agree with you there . Though it will probably never be brought in , I would much prefer it if every vote counted.


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## Diabeticliberty (Jul 20, 2016)

The last time parliament consider something akin to PR, the AV System which was spurred on to appease Nick Clegg there was a referendum and the British public rejected it out of hand. To get proportional representation in place and do it democratically it needs to be done by referendum as it would be considered undemocratic any other way. Given the fact that AV was rejected in 2011 I really don't see the majority of the British public voting for it in a referendum.  Mind you maybe Herr Farage can spout a whole load more bile and lies and sneak it through.  He has after all got form for this now


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## Northerner (Jul 20, 2016)

Diabeticliberty said:


> The last time parliament consider something akin to PR, the AV System which was spurred on to appease Nick Clegg there was a referendum and the British public rejected it out of hand. To get proportional representation in place and do it democratically it needs to be done by referendum as it would be considered undemocratic any other way. Given the fact that AV was rejected in 2011 I really don't see the majority of the British public voting for it in a referendum.  Mind you maybe Herr Farage can spout a whole load more bile and lies and sneak it through.  He has after all got form for this now


AV was not the same as PR, which is largely why it was rejected. The LibDems wanted full PR (Single Transferable Vote) but the Tories wouldn't agree to that.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ortional-representation-alternative-vote-plus

There has to be something fundamentally undemocratic about one party getting 1/3 of the votes of another party, but the difference in seats is 300 times fewer, not just a third fewer


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## Diabeticliberty (Jul 20, 2016)

Northerner said:


> AV was not the same as PR, which is largely why it was rejected. The LibDems wanted full PR (Single Transferable Vote) but the Tories wouldn't agree to that.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ortional-representation-alternative-vote-plus
> 
> There has to be something fundamentally undemocratic about one party getting 1/3 of the votes of another party, but the difference in seats is 300 times fewer, not just a third fewer




It was a proposed move away from the 'first past the post' voting system and a move towards PR. It was rejected. In any case this is moving a little off topic. My original question was what now for Labour? For what it's worth it have never viewed Labour as the champions of PR either


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## trophywench (Jul 20, 2016)

OTOH it was Maggie Thatcher who moved the constituency boundaries, to ensure more Tories were returned!  Lots of the old Labour ones were split up and placed in neighbouring Tory seats to lessen the impact of the 'Reds' on the House.

Part of the difficulty with boundaries is, how do you define them - population at the last census?  Number on the electoral roll, geographical ones, what?  Population in Scotland, you'd have 3 wards whereas number of hectares you might have 30.  If you live eg near the Welsh borders - would you be happy with your votes being counted with the nearest conurbation in England? etc etc ad infinitum!


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## Northerner (Jul 20, 2016)

Diabeticliberty said:


> It was a proposed move away from the 'first past the post' voting system and a move towards PR. It was rejected. In any case this is moving a little off topic. My original question was what now for Labour? For what it's worth it have never viewed Labour as the champions of PR either


PR would never have happened if AV had been accepted. FPTP has suited both major parties for decades, but simply no longer works in modern multi-party politics.


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## HOBIE (Jul 20, 2016)

zuludog said:


> My left wing pedigree is as good as the next man's
> My Grandfather was in the Clydeside Soviet; my father was a trade union member for all his working life; during the 1970s I supported all the correct causes, and for years I voted Labour religiously in both local and general elections
> I was absolutely happy when Tony Blair got in with that landslide majority in 1997. Yes! I thought! he's a young man; he's got ideas, and he's got a massive majority. Since then it's all turned to crap.
> 
> ...


Well said. Comrade Corbyn would not even sing the National Anthem    Lead the country


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## Andy HB (Jul 21, 2016)

Northerner said:


> Totally agree about proportional representation, the current system is farcical


Nope, no PR for me thanks.

I want to vote for an MP to represent me directly.

Andy


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## grovesy (Jul 21, 2016)

Well I have never had an MP I have voted for!


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## Northerner (Jul 21, 2016)

grovesy said:


> Well I have never had an MP I have voted for!


This is the problem with FPTP - unless you live in a marginal there's often no point in voting unless you actually want to vote for the incumbent


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## grovesy (Jul 21, 2016)

Unfortunately I have lived in strongholds first Labour, and now Conservative!


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## Jonsi (Jul 21, 2016)

Just heard on the radio that 150,000 £25 Labour voters signed up ...now there's a nice £3.75m to swell party funds. Forget Cash for Questions, what next "_Sponsor a Member of the shadow Cabinet for just £3 a month and in return you'll get a cuddly toy and a letter once a year_"?!


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## Diabeticliberty (Jul 21, 2016)

Northerner said:


> This is the problem with FPTP - unless you live in a marginal there's often no point in voting unless you actually want to vote for the incumbent




This is indeed one of the biggest failings of first past the post. It does however provide a stronger government which I don't think anyone could disagree that in the highly uncertain, even volatile times in which we unfortunately find ourselves in we really do need. Proportional representation usually results in weak coalitions of 2 or more parties that cannot even agree to pass legislation about the colour scheme of walls in the staff toilet.


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## Diabeticliberty (Jul 21, 2016)

Jonsi said:


> Just heard on the radio that 150,000 £25 Labour voters signed up ...now there's a nice £3.75m to swell party funds. Forget Cash for Questions, what next "_Sponsor a Member of the shadow Cabinet for just £3 a month and in return you'll get a cuddly toy and a letter once a year_"?!




Nice work if you can get it


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## Jonsi (Jul 21, 2016)

Diabeticliberty said:


> This is indeed one of the biggest failings of first past the post. It does however provide a stronger government which I don't think anyone could disagree that in the highly uncertain, even volatile times in which we unfortunately find ourselves in we really do need. Proportional representation usually results in weak coalitions of 2 or more parties that cannot even agree to pass legislation about the colour scheme of walls in the staff toilet.


Trouble is that more people voted against the Government than voted for them, so there will always be disagreement and vehement opposition (I don't mean Labour), at least with a PR system you get to concensus. That said, the voting system in Wales for the Assembly is weird with candidates on a 'slate' getting elected by allocation rather than direct vote just for political balance. Agreed it can flatten out some boundary anomalies but still.


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## Northerner (Jul 21, 2016)

Diabeticliberty said:


> This is indeed one of the biggest failings of first past the post. It does however provide a stronger government which I don't think anyone could disagree that in the highly uncertain, even volatile times in which we unfortunately find ourselves in we really do need. Proportional representation usually results in weak coalitions of 2 or more parties that cannot even agree to pass legislation about the colour scheme of walls in the staff toilet.


Actually, although I totally disagreed with them agreeing to go into coalition with the Tories, the LibDems did have a 'calming' influence on the last government, and despite Tory claims ad infinitum it was down to the LibDems that the tax-free allowance was raised, taking people out of tax. It's clear that, without that influence, the Toies have felt able to put through any legislation they want - which has resulted many times in reellion from their own party. 

As Jonsi says, a minority of voters elected a majority government - that's not really democracy. Plus, the Tories have made further boundary changes to further reduce the Labour seats, and tried to cut Labour funding with the Trade Union bill. Funding of parties needs to be looked at as well as the voting system - rich individuals should not be able to affect policy and effectively 'buy' votes. Tories still may be prosecuted for overspending in 2015 GE - their government may not actually be legal, which then makes you wonder whether the referendum would have been illegal!


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## Northerner (Jul 21, 2016)

This is what 2015 would have looked like under PR:

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/ar...der-a-proportional-voting-system--gJenQmaW2gW


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## Diabeticliberty (Jul 21, 2016)

Wonderful news, let's kick the current government out on a legal challenge. We can replace them with.........oh dear who can we replace them with? Perhaps Prime Minister in waiting Corbyn can form a coalition government. Yes that's it a coalition with his own PLP. Can't do that though cos they are all rogues and scallywags who are plotting against him. Maybe he can form a coalition with Nicolas Maduro of Venezuela, a true communist country. I would add that this morning I'm doubly relieved that against Mr Corbyn's dearest wishes the Trident replacement vote went so strongly in favour. Donald Trump has suggested that if the Americans elect him then he may abandon NATO


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## trophywench (Jul 21, 2016)

The only good thing about that (Trump thing) is that neither the President nor in our case the PM - can do things like that on their own!


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## Andy HB (Jul 21, 2016)

grovesy said:


> Well I have never had an MP I have voted for!



Move to a different location! It works for me 50% of the time. 

Mind you, I have moved quite a lot in my time.


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## Robin (Jul 21, 2016)

Diabeticliberty said:


> Proportional representation usually results in weak coalitions of 2 or more parties that cannot even agree to pass legislation about the colour scheme of walls in the staff toilet.


Belgium once famously failed to agree on a coalition at all, and was without a government for two years. Nobody noticed!


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## Martin Canty (Jul 21, 2016)

Northerner said:


> rich individuals should not be able to affect policy and effectively 'buy' votes


Tell me about it..... We have been living with a congress bought & paid for by the Koch Bros for years, pushing their agenda against what is right for the nation (and the world)


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