# What on earth is going on in London?



## AlisonM (Aug 8, 2011)

*[Chunter]*When I first moved to London in 1986 the Brixton riots were still happening. Although the worst of it was past I still got caught up in it a couple of times while trying to get home to Gipsy Hill. Scary it was and I admit to being terrified at the scale of the violence. At the same time I had a sneaking sympathy for the protesters, they had some justification for their anger, at least I thought so. Now though, it seems to be violence for it's own sake with little justification that I can see. A peaceful protest has been hijacked for other murkier purposes, and I have to say those purposes aren't entirely clear to me at the moment, because no-one's talking.

One of the things I loved most about London was it's multicultural mix and that was what I thought I'd miss coming home. Except that Snechie has changed radically in the intervening years and has become something of a cultural melting pot itself, there are faces of all shades here now and the town has been dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century (not a mistype). A good thing to my mind, but I wonder what would happen if such a shooting were to occur here. The last we had a riot in Inverness was in 1915 and that was more of a protest march with a reading of the Riot Act thrown in by the PTBs then everyone went home to their tea. It lacked a certain something.

I've never been to Tottenham, I'm glad I no longer live in Sarf Lunnon, and I'm so very sad to see that nothing has really changed. Sad to relaise that there are still large sections of the place that feel excluded and voiceless. It's strange (or is it?) that these riots are happening in the midst of a serious recession, just as they did last time. There were a few changes made last time, mostly street names and the amendment of a few stop and search powers, I wonder what wil come out of it this time?*[/Chunter]*


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## novorapidboi26 (Aug 8, 2011)

I only read about all this for the first time in this morning METRO........I am also unclear to what is going on, I thought I read some guy got shot by the police and people were angry about it, fair enough, but he was armed, no?

Its all MADNESS!


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## Caroline (Aug 8, 2011)

My take on it is a young man was shot by the police. His family and friends were protesting peacefully at what they felt was an unlawfull killing.

The the agressive/violent minority took over and incited mass hsyteria and things got out of control so that shops were looted and destroyed and property was attacked and burned, and people were hurt.

Everyone has a right to an opinion, but not if it means causing harm to others and damage to property


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## Robster65 (Aug 8, 2011)

From following on twitter and reading comments on yesterday's guardian website, it would seem that the man who was shot had allegedly fired a handgun at the police, who had told him to stop (although he was in a taxi?) so he was shot dead.
He was a father on the broadwater farm estate, who was allegedly a drug dealer, but was well respected by the community and was known locally as non violent. All from comments in the guardian.
His cousin was stabbed to death outside a nightclub a few months ago and he's become increasingly paranoid about his own safety.
The police were carrying out raids on known drug dealers, etc and he was one of the targets. 
It would seem that what happened is still a bit cloudy, his family and friends saw him as salt of the earth but the police, I'm sure, would take a different view.
The rioting seems to have been an excuse to burn, loot and generally destroy and terrify. People were allegedly driving into the area to take part and it was just a free for all without a large scale police presence.
As you say, the protest was hijacked by a large mob and it has now spread seemingly because others want to do the same and get some free phones and TVs.
I'm sure there is still a lot of social and racial injustice (there ain't no doubt) but that's no excuse, and probably no reason, for what was happening. Just mindless thuggery and opportunism. IMHO.

Rob


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## Steff (Aug 8, 2011)

All such a shame the guy was a 28 year old father of 4 whom shot at the polie first,theres always loads of speculation in the press my take on it was the police let his family and freinds have a peaceful protest then one thing lead to another and violent thugs intent on causing bother got involded, social networking sites were involved somehow to plan these riots.I feel sorry for the poor shop owners and local businesses they asked for none of this, they say Tottenham is full of the unemployed so what happens a load of thugs come along burn peoples shops down and then theres even more people out of jobs.I see some woman Theresa May cut her holiday short but Boris did not and left it all in the capable hands of Kit Millhouse.


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## Catwoman76 (Aug 8, 2011)

AlisonM said:


> *[Chunter]*When I first moved to London in 1986 the Brixton riots were still happening. Although the worst of it was past I still got caught up in it a couple of times while trying to get home to Gipsy Hill. Scary it was and I admit to being terrified at the scale of the violence. At the same time I had a sneaking sympathy for the protesters, they had some justification for their anger, at least I thought so. Now though, it seems to be violence for it's own sake with little justification that I can see. A peaceful protest has been hijacked for other murkier purposes, and I have to say those purposes aren't entirely clear to me at the moment, because no-one's talking.
> 
> One of the things I loved most about London was it's multicultural mix and that was what I thought I'd miss coming home. Except that Snechie has changed radically in the intervening years and has become something of a cultural melting pot itself, there are faces of all shades here now and the town has been dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century (not a mistype). A good thing to my mind, but I wonder what would happen if such a shooting were to occur here. The last we had a riot in Inverness was in 1915 and that was more of a protest march with a reading of the Riot Act thrown in by the PTBs then everyone went home to their tea. It lacked a certain something.
> 
> I've never been to Tottenham, I'm glad I no longer live in Sarf Lunnon, and I'm so very sad to see that nothing has really changed. Sad to relaise that there are still large sections of the place that feel excluded and voiceless. It's strange (or is it?) that these riots are happening in the midst of a serious recession, just as they did last time. There were a few changes made last time, mostly street names and the amendment of a few stop and search powers, I wonder what wil come out of it this time?*[/Chunter]*



Hello My family moved to Hampshire from Tottenham N17.  I lived very near Bruce Grove Station which was on the high street.  It makes me feel very sad, Tottenham was in the news over 20 yrs ago because of the murder of a Policeman on the Broadwater Estate.  It appears there have been more minor 'riots' in Enfield and Brixton( we lived there before we moved to Tottenham). It seems to be 'them against us' again and the devastating these riots cause is truly heartbreaking.  If I still lived there I know I would be so scared, it did say in one of todays papers that children AGED 7 were there  How true this is I don't know 
My sister and I had happy times living in Tottenham in the 60's, especially with Tottenhams White Hart Lane just down the road. May Tottenham recover quickly, I'm sure there is SO much good there than bad.

Sheena


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## Steff (Aug 8, 2011)

Not to sure if the constant coverage on the news is helping things right now.

Whats scary is the fact the social networking sites are involved, all it takes is some more mindless thugs to arrange violence anywhere in the country.


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## Paul (Aug 8, 2011)

i cannot see that these riots and looting have anything to do with the poor lad that was shot.
I find my self asking if we really need these people we see looting and rioting still in our gene pool ? would they be missed? who would care? do we as tax payers want to pay for there bed and lodgings for the next 50 or so years in prison? what are they giving to the human race?
I am not talking about the people of London protesting this is no protest it is the scum trying to ruin what hard working folks of London have worked years to achieve a fully multi national law abiding society i take my hat off to them for putting up with this.


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## Steff (Aug 8, 2011)

Paul said:


> i cannot see that these riots and looting have anything to do with the poor lad that was shot.
> I find my self asking if we really need these people we see looting and rioting still in our gene pool ? would they be missed? who would care? do we as tax payers want to pay for there bed and lodgings for the next 50 or so years in prison? what are they giving to the human race?
> I am not talking about the people of London protesting this is no protest it is the scum trying to ruin what hard working folks of London have worked years to achieve a fully multi national law abiding society i take my hat off to them for putting up with this.



Completely agree
What does david cameron cutting short his holiday to Italy do, are they suddently going to stop because the know he is coming home,there not bothered and dont care as long as there vengeful acts are carried out.


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## teapot8910 (Aug 8, 2011)

My thoughts are with the innocent people and servicemen/women that have been caught up in these riots. Looks like they have a long night ahead of them 

Lots of people on Twitter are suggesting spraying the rioters with the stuff they use on ?20 notes so they can catch them later


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## Freddie99 (Aug 8, 2011)

I posted something similar in another thread. There was a similar occurrence in Paris and other major French cities in the winter of 2005. That got worked out and was resolved with a good deal of rapidity, if memory serves. However, the one difference between the Met police and those French police who dealt with those troubles is that the French officers had the opportunity to be somewhat more robust in the manner with which they dealt with the rioters. One recalls tear gas and repeated baton charges making the news.


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## Robster65 (Aug 8, 2011)

One tweet suggested, probably rightly, how ironic it is that many of the rioters will be tax payers who will have to contribute with the rest of us to rectify the damage.

But they're all high on the excitement and jumping on a very fast moving and dangerous bandwagon.

I doubt it's just "scum" doing it. I'm sure there'll be a lot of middle class revolutionaries and anarchists out there firing up the angry mob. As well as other minor political movements who have much to gain from a collapse in law and order. 

Rob


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## Catwoman76 (Aug 8, 2011)

Robster65 said:


> One tweet suggested, probably rightly, how ironic it is that many of the rioters will be tax payers who will have to contribute with the rest of us to rectify the damage.
> 
> But they're all high on the excitement and jumping on a very fast moving and dangerous bandwagon.
> 
> ...



Baaaaaaaaaaaaa seems to come to this mindless devastation. Sheena


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## HelenP (Aug 8, 2011)

It's all a bit close for comfort now..................

xx


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## Donald (Aug 8, 2011)

How many of these business's that are getting ransacked will not open again especially the Smaller ones. I'm sure the chains stores will survive this is just mindless.


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## Ellie Jones (Aug 9, 2011)

I'm still up and they've just anounced reports of violence kicking off in Liverpool now, sky news (was it on the terresterial) footage of liverpool, but say they are trying to verrify the information..

Lets hope that it some how the police can somehow bring this under control..


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## ypauly (Aug 9, 2011)

The world has gone mad. I think the mindless idiots doing this are grouping up on Facebook. This could be the first social networking riot. I am refering to Birmingham where I heard via facebook to avoid the city centre tonight long before it actually happened.


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## robert@fm (Aug 9, 2011)

The BBC have made a common mistake ? they report looting in Clapham, by which they actually mean Clapham *Junction*, which is actually in Battersea, about a mile from Clapham.  (When the railway came they didn't want to ruin the image of their shiny new station by naming it after Battersea, as that was then perceived as seedy and run-down, so they stretched a geographical point and named it after trendy Clapham.  It's probably for a similar reason that Fulham's best-known soccer club is called "Chelsea".)


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## robert@fm (Aug 9, 2011)

One thing that sickens me about the riots is that some of the yobs concerned are claiming them to be a reaction against continuing poverty.  So they're protesting against poverty by destroying homes and small businesses, thereby creating even more poverty.  Smart.


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## Ellie Jones (Aug 9, 2011)

I've been up most of the night, my brother lives in croyden as yet I haven't got hold of him..

Everybody says it frustrations of people against povety others are blaming it on ethnic culture etc..  It's not any of this

Its the culture in our youth we've created.

A blame society 'it's somebody else's fault' and there is nothing for a youth to fear...  They won't end up in prison most we get away with what they done last night..

Why should the worry, they will hide behind the povety lack of employement excuse top of by those who are caught and find themselves in front of the juge will more than likely get a slapped wrist and community service, that I doubt they bother to complete!


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## Northerner (Aug 9, 2011)

As far as I can see it is just thieving and vandalism and a 'bit of excitement'. They feel powerful because they can organise with their phones etc. and know what and where things will happen - the police can only react. The type of stuff that is being reported has little to do with disaffection and poverty - this isn't a protest against anything. 

I do hope that all our members in the areas affected are OK and stay safe.


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## Caroline (Aug 9, 2011)

Some of the rioting was not too far from me last night, and is where I get the DLR from. I had a look round as far as I could this morning. While the damage is appalling, I was suprised there wasn't more damage done.

When I got off the train last night and walked through the shopping centre the shops selling mobile phones were closed and had their shutters down, and some of the bigger shops lik Marks and spencers were putting their metal screens on their doors and windows.


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## Northerner (Aug 9, 2011)

Stay safe Caroline. I tried using the #londonriots hashtag on Twitter, but the messages were coming through so thick and fast I couldn't keep up. Most of the ones I have seen though are from people appalled at what is happening and looking for ways to combat the rioters. There's also something set up called #riotcleanup which has a (quickly set up, no doubt) webpage here:

http://www.riotcleanup.co.uk/Riot_Clean_Up.html


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## Caroline (Aug 9, 2011)

Since getting to work I have talked to a couple of people who live near me but who use different routes. They saw damage in different places, but overall it wasn't as bad as any of us was expecting.

Damage to property and peoples lively hood is not good, it affects everyone of us, so far I haven't heard of anyone being hurt, so I hope no one is hurt.


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## Mark T (Aug 9, 2011)

One of my colleagues drove this morning past the warehouses in Enfield that had been set alight.  Apparently you could see the smoke from a good distance away.

My sister-in-law lives about 5 miles away from where some of the disturbances happened last night.  Hopefully it doesn?t get any closer to where she is.


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## Caroline (Aug 9, 2011)

Phoned home a little while ago, the station that was closed this morning when I came through re opened about 8.30.

I hope those responsible are caught and dealt with and the clean up and repair is quite quick.


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 9, 2011)

Northerner said:


> As far as I can see it is just thieving and vandalism and a 'bit of excitement'. They feel powerful because they can organise with their phones etc. and know what and where things will happen - the police can only react. The type of stuff that is being reported has little to do with disaffection and poverty - this isn't a protest against anything.



............and it's light nights and the School holidays.


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## HelenP (Aug 9, 2011)

My son used to work in The Party Superstore in Clapham Junction which was set ablaze last night.  His best friend Andy worked reallly hard to work h is way up to become the manager of said shop, and has recently moved from a tiny flat to a 3 bedroomed house, which he can only just afford on his manager's wages. Now what?  And Duncan, the owner of the shop worked so hard to build up his business into a success.  Now what?  For me, it hits home a little more when people I actually know are afftected.

As for the poor policement, how frustrating for them, their hands are pretty much tied after the G20 riots, having to go gently gently for fear of a lawsuit, when they probably just want to beat the crap out of the scum.

Just about to make my way through the meanstreats of Sutton, where a few shops have been targetted overnight.



xx


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## AlisonM (Aug 9, 2011)

The twits are tweeting apparently, but then it seems, so are the ones who want to get set to and clean up the mess. The whole world's gone mad. Has anyone seen a bloke with horns like a lamb speaking like a dragon?


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## Robster65 (Aug 9, 2011)

In reply to anyone who thinks that a violent response is needed. I'd rather find out what the causes are and try to rectify them than just fight fear and violence using fear and violence. Never an answer.

It would be better to get them to help put right what they've done.

There seems to be a lot of power invested in 'youth' but not much in the way of responsibility. Maybe they were just flexing their muscles that society have given to them without teaching them first that they need to grow up.

Rob


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## AlisonM (Aug 9, 2011)

The problem this time I reckon is they're not just attacking the obvious stores electronics, pharmacies and such, but a florist's shop, someone's flat and several newsagents. It makes no sense at all and the anger and violence has no focus to it - unless it's Twitter. The only apparent aim is to cause as much damage as possible. Human beings are pack animals and these packs are positively feral, how long before someone else gets killed I wonder?


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## Caroline (Aug 9, 2011)

I may be wrong, but I think there are a couple of causes here at least.

Our life styles are becoming more sedantry, we work 9-5 at a desk and don't move very far and then go home to watch TV so no activity and no usefull/constructive outlet for agression

Jobs are being axed and there is no chance of getting another one so people feel isolated and have no hope so get angry at the groups who appear to have everything.

We also live in an eclectic society with many different ideas and beliefs. I think we need to make an effort to understand each other. With better understanding comes (hopefully) trust and friendship

It is human nature to fall out sometimes, but because we are all individuals it is also OK to disagree, it is not a one size fits all solution, and I hope we are able to learn and move on from recent events.


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 9, 2011)

Caroline said:


> I may be wrong, but I think there are a couple of causes here at least.
> 
> .



Most last night seem to be kids...Birmingham police arrested 100 people "most of them juveniles". Liverpool reported that "gangs of youths" were roaming the south of the city.

The targets mostly seem to be the goods that have been remorselessly advertised at our youth ...mobile phones, computers, branded sportswear etc

Where are the parents ? And what do the parents say when a fifteen year old comes in at 2 in the morning with a nice new JD sportsbag and a new iphone ?


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## Ellie Jones (Aug 9, 2011)

Glad to say my brother is safe, not sure about his house though as fortunately he's on holiday in Malta, thankfully they own this property as well (his wife is Matleze) so can stay out of the way until it's sorted...


I am glad to hear the PM anounce not only will the police robust in how they deal with any further problems...  But followed with if you'll old enough to do the crime you will pay for the crime..

Sadly I very much doubt if any willl be having a holiday at HM pleasure though...

It sound to think tonight there that the are also drafting officer that haven't had the correct riot training and the special police constable..  

We have spent 30 years since the Broadmoor Farm riots, a lot of money has been ploughed into our inner city area's..  

It's time we stopped trying to thing about what excuses we can hand these critens so they don't have to be accountable for their behaviour...

We need to make them accountable, give the police force the go ahead in situation of riots to be as robust as neccessary...   

Moans and outcries of injuries, brutality etc.  by a robust police force during a riot..

Answer is if you weren't there you wouldn't have got hurt!


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## Andy HB (Aug 9, 2011)

I'd just like to report that I regularly see kids near my place when on my walk around the lake .......

No hoodies ......

No morons or hoodlums ......

and no baseball bats .....

But they are .....

A bit cheeky ......

and deadly with a fishing rod (fish only)!! 

Andy


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## PhilT (Aug 9, 2011)

It's been pretty bad here in Croydon, with widespread looting and lots of buildings destroyed by fire.

The worst affected area is between West Croydon and Thornton Heath along London Road where most of the damage has occured and the was still closed this morning with fire crews still trying to get fires under control.

People have even had their cars hijacked and used to carry looted goods by rioters.


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## Northerner (Aug 9, 2011)

The Met are putting pictures of rioters and looters on their photostream:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/metropolitanpolice/

Some of them are very recognisable (by someone, not me!), so hopefully a lot of them will be brought to justice.


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## Steff (Aug 9, 2011)

They has now been the first casualty of the problems a 26 year old in Croyden


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## Caroline (Aug 9, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> I'd just like to report that I regularly see kids near my place when on my walk around the lake .......
> 
> No hoodies ......
> 
> ...





A lot of kids are good and nice, not all are mindless morons.


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## PhilT (Aug 9, 2011)

The main shopping centre is now being closed as there has been inteligence of groups starting to amass in the West Croydon area. We have had riot police vehicles stationed near our office block all morning and there are police helicopters circling the area.


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## Sheilagh1958 (Aug 9, 2011)

Northerner said:


> The Met are putting pictures of rioters and looters on their photostream:
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/metropolitanpolice/
> 
> Some of them are very recognisable (by someone, not me!), so hopefully a lot of them will be brought to justice.



Excellent idea. Most of these people are very recognisable if you know them.

Lets hope the extra police will get things under control.


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## Northerner (Aug 9, 2011)

PhilT said:


> The main shopping centre is now being closed as there has been inteligence of groups starting to amass in the West Croydon area. We have had riot police vehicles stationed near our office block all morning and there are police helicopters circling the area.



Stay safe Phil, must be very worrying. I hope nothing comes of it.


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## Blythespirit (Aug 9, 2011)

It's easy for me to be complacent, living in a tiny village and working from home, but it's terrible watching events unfold and my thoughts are with all those who have lost their homes, possessions and buisnesses. To Phil and any others on here who live or work in areas under threat, I hope and pray you stay safe. Terrible times we live in. XXXXX


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## Northerner (Aug 9, 2011)

HelenP said:


> My son used to work in The Party Superstore in Clapham Junction which was set ablaze last night.  His best friend Andy worked reallly hard to work h is way up to become the manager of said shop, and has recently moved from a tiny flat to a 3 bedroomed house, which he can only just afford on his manager's wages. Now what?  And Duncan, the owner of the shop worked so hard to build up his business into a success.  Now what?  For me, it hits home a little more when people I actually know are afftected....
> 
> xx



Really sorry to hear about your son's friends business Helen  I just heard that the firemen have finally left after putting the fire out


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## Robster65 (Aug 9, 2011)

It is easy to view it on the nes as happening elsewhere but it must be very scary to be close to the problems. My daughter lived in Beckenham a ocuple of years ago and shops have been closed and boarded up just in case there. I wouldn't be a happy bunny if she was still there.

Echo Northerner's sentiments. Stay safe all.

Rob


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## AlisonM (Aug 9, 2011)

It's occurred to me that locking these people up isn't the answer. I suggest giving them a community service order and making them work every day with the folk whose lives and livelihoods they've wrecked. Let them see first hand the physical and emotional cost of what they've done while making them rebuild the communities they've torn apart.

And just in case, leave them with a doubled custodial sentence hanging over their heads if they fail to meet their objectives.

I hope you and yours all remain safe and unharmed through this awfulness.


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## HelenP (Aug 9, 2011)

They have closed off part of Sutton (where i live) High Street, as they are expecting further disturbance there later (last night's was fairly small scale, comparatively), and apparently they have evacuated Wimbledon Town Centre, where trouble is also expected.

I have sons who are young men, one was out of work for over a year, one has been unemployed for 10 months with no job prospects on the horizon.  Are they out attacking police/fire/ambulance crews, destroying other people's property, stealing what they want and trashing or burning the rest and using the situation as a (v poor) excuse?  No, they are in front of the TV, absolutely aghast and appalled at what they are witnessing.

xx


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## Steff (Aug 9, 2011)

HelenP said:


> They have closed off part of Sutton (where i live) High Street, as they are expecting further disturbance there later (last night's was fairly small scale, comparatively), and apparently they have evacuated Wimbledon Town Centre, where trouble is also expected.
> 
> I have sons who are young men, one was out of work for over a year, one has been unemployed for 10 months with no job prospects on the horizon.  Are they out attacking police/fire/ambulance crews, destroying other people's property, stealing what they want and trashing or burning the rest and using the situation as a (v poor) excuse?  No, they are in front of the TV, absolutely aghast and appalled at what they are witnessing.
> 
> xx



Thats a good point you make Helen we me and my little family scrape by every week just about managing to pay our bills, we struggle to buy the latest gadgets that come out for our son,but we would not dream of going out there and stealing the stuff we wanted willy nilly as we have coinsciences, I would like to think these scumbags will get whats coming to them 10 fold.
Theres all sorts of vidios across youtube the nastiest  one is some poor guy who had been attacked on the ground some youths come up to him looking like there helping him up but as he gets to his feet there raid his back pack and nick something ,truly vile!


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## HelenP (Aug 9, 2011)

Steff said:


> I would like to think these scumbags will get whats coming to them



Sadly, we all know that's not gonna happen.............. 

xx


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## shiv (Aug 9, 2011)

I work in Angel. Last night all the shops and bars boarded up their windows (from what I have heard), the shops in the market type area were raided. We have been told to leave no later than 5.30 'just in case'.

I live close to Green Lanes, Haringey, which was in the news. Lots of police presence up in Wood Green from what I hear.

I had plans to go out in central London this week which we have decided to cancel, it's not worth the risk and from what I hear loads of places are staying closed anyway.


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## Steff (Aug 9, 2011)

HelenP said:


> Sadly, we all know that's not gonna happen..............
> 
> xx



Yup your right Helen, surely the things they have stoled have chips in them or something,not that theres any chance of any of the stolen goods going back to where they came from,one things for sure be careful when your ebay looking for playstations or something you never know where they came from


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## bigpurpleduck (Aug 9, 2011)

Robster65 said:


> In reply to anyone who thinks that a violent response is needed. I'd rather find out what the causes are and try to rectify them than just fight fear and violence using fear and violence...



Absolutely agree.

Hope everyone in the affected areas is staying safe. It must be scary to be near the riots.

Redundances, pension cuts, NHS cuts, benefit cuts, tax increases, tuition fee increases and half the government are (or were) on family holidays abroad. No wonder there's a lot of anger and unrest.

I'm not condoning the violence in any way. It is no way to make your feelings heard or to deal with a bad situation, particularly when small businesses & peoples' livelihoods are being attacked. But the anger comes from somewhere.

What a very sad situation


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## Catwoman76 (Aug 9, 2011)

PhilT said:


> The main shopping centre is now being closed as there has been inteligence of groups starting to amass in the West Croydon area. We have had riot police vehicles stationed near our office block all morning and there are police helicopters circling the area.



Be safe Phil. and please take extra care.  Best wishes Sheena


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## Dizzydi (Aug 9, 2011)

My poor little sister lives in Harrow Wealdstone with her husband and son and I'm sure I heard on the news this morning that harrow on the hill has also been affected. Not a million miles away from were she lives and I have tried to get hold of her and haven't been able to and it is now freaking me out.

Hope your safe sis and all these trouble now stop!!  

Enough all right 

I just hope to god everything calms down now and all these stupid people find a little sense and compassion - if that is possible.


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## Steff (Aug 9, 2011)

Di not sure if its true but theres been reports of a large group heading towards Wealdstone, maybe try her hubby, check the BBC website for updates


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## AlisonM (Aug 10, 2011)

A relatively quiet night in London it seems, I suppose we should be grateful for that though other cities weren't so lucky. There's been a few attempts to get things started in cities, mostly Glasgow, up here but so far they've failed.


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## Robster65 (Aug 10, 2011)

There's an awful lot of false rumours being pushed around about lots of places. Twitter was full of Canterbury, Bromley, etc but then duaghter confirmed nothing in Canterbury and others showed photos of a deserted Bromley.

It's a game to a lot of people. If you can't riot, try to spread the fear through the internet. 

Rob


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## Northerner (Aug 10, 2011)

Steff said:


> ...
> Theres all sorts of vidios across youtube the nastiest  one is some poor guy who had been attacked on the ground some youths come up to him looking like there helping him up but as he gets to his feet there raid his back pack and nick something ,truly vile!



There's an update on the boy here:

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2011/8/10/nation/9272131&sec=nation

How utterly horrible for him, his friends and his family to endure  I hope they can identify and arrest the perpetrators. Heartless.


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## Steff (Aug 10, 2011)

Northerner said:


> There's an update on the boy here:
> 
> http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2011/8/10/nation/9272131&sec=nation
> 
> How utterly horrible for him, his friends and his family to endure  I hope they can identify and arrest the perpetrators. Heartless.



Thanks for that Northerner I had been wondering how he was fairing.


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## sasha1 (Aug 10, 2011)

Hi I hope you all safe in the affected areas .. 

I remember well the Ireland troubles, Toxteth, Brixton and of late the Oldam incidents .... These all had a root cause, and to some degree a reason, wether it be right or wrong.

What has been happening over the past few nights, has a very different slant, nor am I justifying the actions of the rioters and for what they say is the reason.

But as a society and parents, this is what happens when we take all consequences away, we have given children too much power, and they know that ... parents, police, schools, no one can touch them.. they use the court and ASBO's as a social status and something to be proud of ... they are a generation ... with no dreams, no direction, aspirations ... there is no jobs for them, no one to look up to and absolutely no deterrent.

Whilst the majority of our children would not be involved, and adhere to be good british citizens ... the minority involved in this do not care ... one girl interviewed said "Respect, no one respects them so why should they respect others" ... what part of respect is earnt has never been taught to her.... 11 year olds looting ... why the hell are'nt they in bed .... parents have to accept this responsibility and be held to account.

Many years ago, National Service, was expected of the youngsters, god why on earth would the army want this shower ... it should be brought back, this lot would wonder what had hit them ... and welcome them to the real world ... Birch them .... as a child on holiday in the Isle of Man, my parents got talking to a gentleman, who had been birched for something that would have be viewed as minor, amongst todays standards, I vivdly recall the scars that were left on his back ... 

If Twitter, Blackberry, Facebook have been used to co-ordinate such rioting, shut the networks down for the foreseeable few days ... 

Heidi
xx


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## Caroline (Aug 10, 2011)

We all get angry, it is the way we deal with the anger that is the difference. Most of us know it is wrong to harm others or damag property just because we are angry. It is the minority who stirs up trouble and incites riot that makes it bad for everyone else.


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## Robster65 (Aug 10, 2011)

Caroline said:


> We all get angry, it is the way we deal with the anger that is the difference. Most of us know it is wrong to harm others or damag property just because we are angry. It is the minority who stirs up trouble and incites riot that makes it bad for everyone else.


 
Agreed. They lack the social skills necessary to step back and think through what they're doing. They're behaving childishly by reacting to their emotions, which crave stimulation and excitement. Many will have been indulged and protected from consequence all their lives, so they want what they want and expect it to be provided without worrying who gets hurt or put out.

To them it may well be like living out an xbox game in real life. The cops can't outsmart them so they can use the outside world as a palce to test their powers. We are the zombies/aliens/baddies who they get the points for burning/looting/hurting/killing.

Rob


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## sasha1 (Aug 10, 2011)

Ive just seen on the BBC news, that one of the rioters that was in court on looting charges, is a primary school teacher ....  ... 

Heidi
xx


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## Northerner (Aug 10, 2011)

sasha1 said:


> Ive just seen on the BBC news, that one of the rioters that was in court on looting charges, is a primary school teacher ....  ...
> 
> Heidi
> xx



That seems to scotch the deprived and disaffected background theory


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## sasha1 (Aug 10, 2011)

Northerner said:


> That seems to scotch the deprived and disaffected background theory


Sure does Alan ....  .... suppose they will come up with some valid excuse as to their behaviour .... they have plenty of time to think about it, as the case has been transfered to Crown Court .. for sentencing .... How will they explain it to the school and parents for which they are trusted to educate children

Heidi
 xx


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## Dizzydi (Aug 10, 2011)

sasha1 said:


> Hi I hope you all safe in the affected areas ..
> 
> I remember well the Ireland troubles, Toxteth, Brixton and of late the Oldam incidents .... These all had a root cause, and to some degree a reason, wether it be right or wrong.
> 
> ...



I remember the Oldham Riots well - I used to live on the main road where organised gangs where driving through Moorside Oldham and some getting out of there cars and charging down the road to get to the affected area's to join in the fighting - scary!!

My sister is ok - her area was locked down at 4.00 pm yesterday all shops closed and everyone was advised to stay in doors - massive police presence in the area.


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## Mark T (Aug 10, 2011)

sasha1 said:


> Sure does Alan ....  .... suppose they will come up with some valid excuse as to their behaviour .... they have plenty of time to think about it, as the case has been transfered to Crown Court .. for sentencing .... How will they explain it to the school and parents for which they are trusted to educate children
> 
> Heidi
> xx


I would assume, and hope, that if they received a criminal conviction that they would be deemed unfit to work with children - at least in the short term.


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## Northerner (Aug 10, 2011)

Northerner said:


> There's an update on the boy here:
> 
> http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2011/8/10/nation/9272131&sec=nation
> 
> How utterly horrible for him, his friends and his family to endure  I hope they can identify and arrest the perpetrators. Heartless.





Steff said:


> Thanks for that Northerner I had been wondering how he was fairing.



Someone has come up with this splendid idea to show the lad and his family we're not all rotten:

http://somethingniceforashraf.tumblr.com/


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## vince13 (Aug 10, 2011)

sasha1 said:


> Ive just seen on the BBC news, that one of the rioters that was in court on looting charges, is a primary school teacher ....  ...
> 
> Heidi
> xx



It said on the BBC 1 o'clock news that he was a teaching assistant and he was shown hiding his *off-white* face from the cameras.  Shame ? what shame ?  does he even know the meaning of the word ?


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## Blythespirit (Aug 10, 2011)

I trust he wont be a teaching assistant any longer. XXXXX


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## sasha1 (Aug 10, 2011)

Northerner said:


> Someone has come up with this splendid idea to show the lad and his family we're not all rotten:
> 
> http://somethingniceforashraf.tumblr.com/


Thats a brill idea ... and Ive just added to the poll .. I saw this disgusting act in the news last night, and felt physically sick for the young man... The culprits should have there hands chopped off .... as far as Im concerned they are not fit to live among a society.

Heidi
 xx


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## sasha1 (Aug 10, 2011)

vince13 said:


> It said on the BBC 1 o'clock news that he was a teaching assistant and he was shown hiding his *off-white* face from the cameras.  Shame ? what shame ?  does he even know the meaning of the word ?


Apologies there ... I saw it too, and misheard the first time ... he should be cuffed so he cant hid his face .... Sorry I have strong veiws on this .... I hope his family are as disgusted in him as the rest of the country

Heidi
xx


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## vince13 (Aug 10, 2011)

sasha1 said:


> Apologies there ... I saw it too, and misheard the first time ... he should be cuffed so he cant hid his face .... Sorry I have strong veiws on this .... I hope his family are as disgusted in him as the rest of the country
> 
> Heidi
> xx



That's OK Heidi - it's just that my daughter and daughter in law are both teachers and they get enough *carp* thrown at them in the normal way for having such "long holidays" I didn't want teachers included in the scumbag label !     Of course there may be teachers in the riots - they do have such long holidays after all.....!!


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## Caroline (Aug 10, 2011)

Well we are now the best part of Wenesday over and near the end of my working day. Things feel lesse tense, so I hope we are over all this nonsense now...


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## Steff (Aug 10, 2011)

They have arrested at least one person for that sickening attack on the Malaysian guy,and in Manc have arrested someone for the miss selfridges arson


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## teapot8910 (Aug 10, 2011)

Sony have said that they will send a replacement PSP to Ashraf after those mindless thugs mugged him


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## Ellie Jones (Aug 10, 2011)

We've got to forget the colour of skin...  What is happening isn't just because somebody belongs to an ethnic minority group..

This has happened purely because we as a society have made some unwise choices thinking that we understand how we interact together as a society...

We have to relearn how disapline and respect is not only installed, but how we install that disapline in all cultures..


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## Caroline (Aug 11, 2011)

Ellie Jones said:


> We've got to forget the colour of skin...  What is happening isn't just because somebody belongs to an ethnic minority group..
> 
> This has happened purely because we as a society have made some unwise choices thinking that we understand how we interact together as a society...
> 
> We have to relearn how disapline and respect is not only installed, but how we install that disapline in all cultures..



We have been talking about exactly the same thing in the office.

Happily my local shopping centre is begining to open a little. I had a quick look round this morning, and although the busses are on diversion still, the streets are opening up and apart from one shop that was burned out, most of the damage looked superficial/cosmetic. Macdnolads was getting ready for its 6am opening and a delivery was being made to M&S and it looked like quite a few peole were going to work in Sainsbury's.

Only one pub was damaged in any way and that was completly burned out. Weatherspoons is considered quite posh and quite expensive in my area and is the only one with any obvious damage done to it.

At the moment I think people are still quite worried about groups of more than two or three people, but I hope this has come to an end and we can get back to normal day to day living without any worries.


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## Northerner (Aug 11, 2011)

Wetherspoons? Posh? Crikey!  Glad to hear things are returning to normal Caroline


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## Caroline (Aug 11, 2011)

Northerner said:


> Wetherspoons? Posh? Crikey!  Glad to hear things are returning to normal Caroline



It is round our way, but anything that wont allow jeans and hoodies is considered posh where I live.

I hope everywhere returns to normal pretty quickly, we can do with out this smelly messy stuff everywhere.


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## Ellie Jones (Aug 11, 2011)

Northerner said:


> Wetherspoons? Posh? Crikey!  Glad to hear things are returning to normal Caroline



I was thinking the same...

Concerning skin I said similar in another forum, I also said that as the courts cases went through courts that we would see looter/riotors through the courts we see all sectors of society 40 and under..

And that's what we have seen..

A primary school teaching assistant
A Graphic designer
A daughter of a wealthy Businessman 

As well as your criminal that's out of prision on licence, children etc...

And what disgust me, is how the labour party is trying to use the riots to take a bash at goevernment policy....

The police force hasn't been cut yet!  Are they harper on, because labour know what damaged they done to our society while they sat in Downing St!


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## Caroline (Aug 11, 2011)

One of the things that is annoying me is the damage to businesses small and large. With many organisations laying off staff, a business that has to lay off staff because of the rioting damage means more people in search of fewer jobs.

In my area it is places like the supermarkets and large shops (love them or hate them) that are giving most people work. A new Wilkinsons was so badly damaged the building it's in is unsafe. It employes (I've been told) about 250 to 300 people. I hope eventually they are able to go back to work, but if not they will have to go back to signing on again, which is bad for everyone.

Hopefully those in power will see the damage done and something will be done about it. Someone mentioned earlier that all those who cuase the damage shuold help to clear it up. The optimist in me hopes they will see how their actions have affected others and hopefully give them skills to get jobs where they can themselves.


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## ypauly (Aug 11, 2011)

I almost fealt sorry for this peace loving rastafarian until somebody on another website posted a different clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0gWXX_DRbg&feature=related

Then at the end of this clip he is seen kicking a police dog at 1:53
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdQSTXZ1WG8&feature=player_embedded


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## ypauly (Aug 11, 2011)

This made me chuckle though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gURqXH9uGfw


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## Caroline (Aug 11, 2011)

ypauly said:


> I almost fealt sorry for this peace loving rastafarian until somebody on another website posted a different clip
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0gWXX_DRbg&feature=related
> 
> Then at the end of this clip he is seen kicking a police dog at 1:53
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdQSTXZ1WG8&feature=player_embedded



These people are just too much, why take it out on the dog who would have run off if he hadn't been made to be there. I wonder who has the more sense the so called humans or the animals...


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## Steff (Aug 11, 2011)

Is they no end to the sick acts these thugs commit, that poor dog im just glad she never got her full force on the poor mite


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## Steff (Aug 11, 2011)

What about the recent suggestions, cut all the riotors benifits and if there council tenents they become evicted,can i see this happening not really


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## Northerner (Aug 11, 2011)

Steff said:


> What about the recent suggestions, cut all the riotors benifits and if there council tenents they become evicted,can i see this happening not really



The trouble with that is, where would they go? They need to become part of their communities and change their ways rather than being deprived further with no alternative. More money needs to be put into the groups who encourage and facilitate a move away from criminality, instead with all the cuts these are the groups who are suffering most.


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 11, 2011)

Ellie Jones said:


> And what disgust me, is how the labour party is trying to use the riots to take a bash at goevernment policy....



The Labour Party hasn't done any such thing. They have specifically condemned the riots and refused to use them to attack the govt.

Its a Tory infighting for the leadership of the Party - Boris Johnson- has linked the riots to Police cuts. Part of his war on Cameron.


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## Robster65 (Aug 11, 2011)

Northerner said:


> The trouble with that is, where would they go? They need to become part of their communities and change their ways rather than being deprived further with no alternative. More money needs to be put into the groups who encourage and facilitate a move away from criminality, instead with all the cuts these are the groups who are suffering most.


 
There was a linked story on the BBC website from a few weeks ago warning of the cuts to youth clubs and services leading to riots. I agree that there needs to be investment to understand what the problems are and address them rather than just use a big stick to confirm what they already think about society.

Rob


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## ypauly (Aug 11, 2011)

mcdonagh47 said:


> The Labour Party hasn't done any such thing. They have specifically condemned the riots and refused to use them to attack the govt.
> 
> Its a Tory infighting for the leadership of the Party - Boris Johnson- has linked the riots to Police cuts. Part of his war on Cameron.



So you didn't see ken livingstone or Hariet Harmen then?

Both of them and others have made political point scoring their personal priorities.

ETA At 8:20 red Ken actually say the words "it's the goverments fault" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF35okWtmEs

And Harry http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgXuX32ot8w

Most of the 15 year old have known no other goverment they are the product of New Labour if it's anybodies fault they should be taking a look at what they did.

Just in case there is any doubt left http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTugksv-_Mk


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## Northerner (Aug 11, 2011)

Paul, can I blame Margaret Thatcher for engendering the selfish 'I'm alright Jack' loadsamoney attitudes and policies in the 1980s that in their turn produced New Labour? Also, the parents of that 15 yo grew up under Thatcher.

Or is that stretching things too far?


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## sasha1 (Aug 11, 2011)

Hi peeps ..

Im going to carefully dip my foot into the political side here, this is just my opinion, and certainly do not wish to offend anyone elses political view. 

I grew up during the Thatcher regime or the 70's and 80's ... when everything British was sold off and privatised, the right to buy council properties ... hence the social housing criris today.

The Tory governments have never been concerned about the working class ... 

Light was eventually restored when Labour were reintroduced to running the country, they were left with the massive task of sorting the tory governments previous mess out.

Yes they made mistakes, but none of these political parties are whiter than white ..

At the end of the day, its not about whose to blame for what has and maybe about to happen again ... The blame lies at the door of society, red tape, burocracy.

Heidi
xx


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## sasha1 (Aug 11, 2011)

Northerner said:


> Paul, can I blame Margaret Thatcher for engendering the selfish 'I'm alright Jack' loadsamoney attitudes and policies in the 1980s that in their turn produced New Labour? Also, the parents of that 15 yo grew up under Thatcher.
> 
> Or is that stretching things too far?


Totally agree here Alan

Heidi
xx


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## ypauly (Aug 11, 2011)

Northerner said:


> Paul, can I blame Margaret Thatcher for engendering the selfish 'I'm alright Jack' loadsamoney attitudes and policies in the 1980s that in their turn produced New Labour? Also, the parents of that 15 yo grew up under Thatcher.
> 
> Or is that stretching things too far?


Yes Alan you can. Not only that but I would agree. When the examples our children have to follow are of leaders (MP's expenses) riding the gravy train, bankers getting massive bonuses for making mistakes (I don't mind bonuses if things are good) and mega rich sports stars and celebs showing off their "Bling" they will wan't some of that.

The point I would make though Alan is that New Labour governed for 13 years and if anything mad that culture even worse, so blaming the current goverment for their mess is totally wrong, totally underhanded and a (insert bad word) disgrace.


----------



## ypauly (Aug 11, 2011)

sasha1 said:


> Hi peeps ..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nonsense, who do you think make the rich their money if it isn't the working class? Without them they would have to do everything themselves lol.


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## AlisonM (Aug 11, 2011)

Northerner said:


> Paul, can I blame Margaret Thatcher for engendering the selfish 'I'm alright Jack' loadsamoney attitudes and policies in the 1980s that in their turn produced New Labour? Also, the parents of that 15 yo grew up under Thatcher.
> 
> Or is that stretching things too far?



Oh yes, I'm totally with you on that one. And I absolutely despise New Labour too, they sold everyone down the river. There's no longer even a two party system in England, there's Tories and Tories Lite and no serious challengers. I don't regard the Liberals as a credible alternative and have lost all respect for them too since they got in bed with the Tories. 

Say what you like about Red Ken (Ken Livingston) and Gorgeous George (George Galloway), they have at least managed to hang on to their socialist credentials. Unlike the mainstream Labour party which has lost all contact with its roots and forgotten who (and what) it was created for. I've no shame in admitting I come of a long line of socialists including Keir Hardie on one side and John MacLean on the other, I'm proud that both my grandfathers went on the hunger marches in their youth when Winnie set the army on them. Those marches were a far more positive act than this latest horror and far more to the point than breaking into the like of Claire's Accessories and stealing a few hair ribbons. Don't let the commentators fool you into believing this was any form of legitimate protest, it was pure thoughtless greed, nothing more. Social exclusion is not an excuse for this.

Social protest has always been a legitimate means of making the working person's views known, and it would be far more likely to garner support for those who feel disadvantaged than this mindless violence. Instead the last few days have served to alienate the powers that be and decent folk. It has ruined the lives and livelihoods of those whose businesses or homes have been attacked and, at the same time, ruined the lives and futures of those who have been stupid enough to get involved in the lawlessness. The law will catch up with most of them eventually, all that wondeful technology they used to plan their escapades will also serve to convict them in the end. Oh, and cutting off their benefits won't achieve anything beyond forcing the guilty into further acts of lawlessness.

Once again, I say make them do community service and repair the damage they've done. Make them stand before their victims, look them in the eye and face the devastation they've caused head on. It is not and should not be about revenge, but about forgiveness and making amends. That's the only way I can see top heal the hurt.

Sorry, this turned into a bit of a rambling rant. I feel better for having got all that off my chest.


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## Robster65 (Aug 11, 2011)

Northerner said:


> Paul, can I blame Margaret Thatcher for engendering the selfish 'I'm alright Jack' loadsamoney attitudes and policies in the 1980s that in their turn produced New Labour? Also, the parents of that 15 yo grew up under Thatcher.
> 
> Or is that stretching things too far?


 
Agreed

Rob


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## Robster65 (Aug 11, 2011)

ypauly said:


> Yes Alan you can. Not only that but I would agree. When the examples our children have to follow are of leaders (MP's expenses) riding the gravy train, bankers getting massive bonuses for making mistakes (I don't mind bonuses if things are good) and mega rich sports stars and celebs showing off their "Bling" they will wan't some of that.
> 
> The point I would make though Alan is that New Labour governed for 13 years and if anything mad that culture even worse, so blaming the current goverment for their mess is totally wrong, totally underhanded and a (insert bad word) disgrace.


 
Agreed (mostly)

Rob


----------



## Robster65 (Aug 11, 2011)

AlisonM said:


> Oh yes, I'm totally with you on that one. And I absolutely despise New Labour too, they sold everyone down the river. There's no longer even a two party system in England, there's Tories and Tories Lite and no serious challengers. I don't regard the Liberals as a credible alternative and have lost all respect for them too since they got in bed with the Tories.
> 
> Say what you like about Red Ken (Ken Livingston) and Gorgeous George (George Galloway), they have at least managed to hang on to their socialist credentials. Unlike the mainstream Labour party which has lost all contact with its roots and forgotten who (and what) it was created for. I've no shame in admitting I come of a long line of socialists including Keir Hardie on one side and John MacLean on the other, I'm proud that both my grandfathers went on the hunger marches in their youth when Winnie set the army on them. Those marches were a far more positive act than this latest horror and far more to the point than breaking into the like of Claire's Accessories and stealing a few hair ribbons. Don't let the commentators fool you into believing this was any form of legitimate protest, it was pure thoughtless greed, nothing more. Social exclusion is not an excuse for this.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed

ROb


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## Northerner (Aug 11, 2011)

ypauly said:


> The point I would make though Alan is that New Labour governed for 13 years and if anything mad that culture even worse, so blaming the current goverment for their mess is totally wrong, totally underhanded and a (insert bad word) disgrace.



I agree about New Labour just making things worse. The changes to banking regulations helped allow the financial jiggery pokery that helped lead to the global collapse, and also placed a reliance on financial services as a main column of support for the economy here - they did little to restore the manufacturing capacity lost under the Tory regime that preceded them. The moves by Thatcher into home ownership led to two unsustainable housing booms with people learning to live in deep debt expecting it would continue forever.

HOWEVER...the current government has done little to restore confidence and optimism, it's just been macho, sweeping and highly unsettling changes (many already showing signs of deep misjudgment). Society underwent a deep shock in the latter years of the Labour government, and the ConDems have simply driven the knife in deeper and keep twisting it. Their plan is not working but because they have spouted so much about firm government and hard choices they are unwilling to reassess and modify policies to suit the changing conditions and evidence of failure. All sides are paying more attention to political point-scoring rather than working to make the country strong again.

I have no confidence in any of them I'm afraid. I might even have supported the ConDems if they had shown they had the ability to adapt instead of blindly ploughing on regardless of who suffers (all of us in the end, I fear )


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## Steff (Aug 11, 2011)

Does this thread have to turn political, can you no split the threads from ellies onwards  (page 9)


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## sasha1 (Aug 11, 2011)

ypauly said:


> Nonsense, who do you think make the rich their money if it isn't the working class? Without them they would have to do everything themselves lol.


Exactly ... they rob from the poor, to give to the rich .... 

Heidi
xx


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## ypauly (Aug 11, 2011)

Blimey a political popst I agree with. From Alan lol


Need to lay down for a minute


What bugged me about red ken is when he said they should get the younsters building houses to solve two problems at once. He was mayor for 8 years a built nothing the housing crisis is twice as bad now as when he took office.

Though a good idea if he had done it 10 years ago when his ofice was awash with all that money we may not have these problems today. He was far to preoccupied with bendy buses and bikes  to do anything usefull though.


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## Caroline (Aug 11, 2011)

I think there is also a need for education and for people to be encouraged to do things. I don't consider myself old at 53 but I can remember having to make at least some of my own entertainment. I used to like writing and drawing and reading. I spent hours playing with friends or going swimming or going to the library or local museum. These days the (lots of naughty words) people who cause the trouble seem to have been spoon fed entertainment and part of that entertainment is/are violent games. 

It also seems some families (but I think these are the minority)who cause the trouble need to learn to be proper families too. I wont say i am perfect, and there are things I could do better, but in our household we do things like have family meals all together round the same table and we ask how each others days have been, if one is ill then we are all there to help.

Sorry , must get off my soap box...


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## ypauly (Aug 11, 2011)

Caroline said:


> I think there is also a need for education and for people to be encouraged to do things. I don't consider myself old at 53 but I can remember having to make at least some of my own entertainment. I used to like writing and drawing and reading. I spent hours playing with friends or going swimming or going to the library or local museum. These days the (lots of naughty words) people who cause the trouble seem to have been spoon fed entertainment and part of that entertainment is/are violent games.
> 
> It also seems some families (but I think these are the minority)who cause the trouble need to learn to be proper families too. I wont say i am perfect, and there are things I could do better, but in our household we do things like have family meals all together round the same table and we ask how each others days have been, if one is ill then we are all there to help.
> 
> Sorry , must get off my soap box...



No no no Stay on that soap box, you are right.
There is also that fact now that kids can get all the films, music and games "free" off the internet because "that ain't stealing is it" and there are parents that encourage that rather than do the right thing and pay.

Many people really dont see it as wrong yet until this week most wouldn't dream of walking into a store and steal a game or film.


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## Steff (Aug 11, 2011)

My son is asking me all sorts of questions after seeing and hearing about whats gone on this week, im struggling to find the answers, he asked  why people were stealing playstations on the t.v etc etc.Findng words that are right to a 10 year old is proving difficult


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## Northerner (Aug 11, 2011)

Steff said:


> My son is asking me all sorts of questions after seeing and hearing about whats gone on this week, im struggling to find the answers, he asked  why people were stealing playstations on the t.v etc etc.Findng words that are right to a 10 year old is proving difficult



I don't envy you your task Steff, but it's good to hear that in your family he has a good example that means he is questioning what is going on rather than seeing it as normal or no big deal. Good luck!


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## Caroline (Aug 11, 2011)

Steff said:


> My son is asking me all sorts of questions after seeing and hearing about whats gone on this week, im struggling to find the answers, he asked  why people were stealing playstations on the t.v etc etc.Findng words that are right to a 10 year old is proving difficult



My little feller is 7 andis asking all kinds of questions too. It is difficult sometimes to find the right words. As parents it is our job to teach right from wrong, when other kids have things and just seem to take it, it makes our jobs even harder. I feel sorry for some of the kids as their parents haven't taught any kind of moral code, and life will be difficult later on...


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## Blythespirit (Aug 11, 2011)

As long as you let him know how wrong what they're doing is and do it in a way that he will understand Steff. Remember the politicians don't really understand the why's and wherefores so a 10 year old stands no chance.

 I think I'd say something like...Some really naughty people thought it would be a good idea to break into shops and steal things and a lot of silly people are copying them. It's wrong though and the police will catch them and send them to prison...... My kids are all grown up now and I'm proud to say they are all as disgusted as I am about it all. If I had young children at home I think I would limmit how much of the TV coverage of it I watched whilst they were with me. It's upsetting for us, who knows what goes through the mind of a 10 year old. Good luck. XXXXX


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 11, 2011)

ypauly said:


> Just in case there is any doubt left http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTugksv-_Mk


Crikey, that's a good interview with Ken - he is just so moderate and so sensible ! 
Use water cannon on the rioters but also loook to the future - "tough on the riots and tough on the causes of riots"


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 11, 2011)

sasha1 said:


> Exactly ... they rob from the poor, to give to the rich ....
> 
> Heidi
> xx



Is that why there are only serious riots under Tory governments ?


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## ypauly (Aug 11, 2011)

mcdonagh47 said:


> Is that why there are only serious riots under Tory governments ?



No that would be because labour use the politics of envy when they arn't in power to wind up the population, some have the brains to realise that everything isn't free, some don't.


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## ypauly (Aug 11, 2011)

mcdonagh47 said:


> Crikey, that's a good interview with Ken - he is just so moderate and so sensible !
> Use water cannon on the rioters but also loook to the future - "tough on the riots and tough on the causes of riots"



I actually agree with much of what he said, but you said they wasn't using the riots for political point scoring. You were wrong.


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 11, 2011)

ypauly said:


> I actually agree with much of what he said, but you said they wasn't using the riots for political point scoring. You were wrong.



Ken's not the official voice of the Labour Party.


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## ypauly (Aug 11, 2011)

mcdonagh47 said:


> Ken's not the official voice of the Labour Party.



Boris Johnson is not the official voice of the conservative party but you are happy to quote him, twist his words and make out there is some sort of party war going on. All he did was say the police cuts should be reviewed and as mayor of London that is his job and the least people should expect.


Harriet was deputy PM she is now a shadow cabinet member does she not talk for the party either?


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## Northerner (Aug 11, 2011)

mcdonagh47 said:


> Ken's not the official voice of the Labour Party.



No, but he is the subject of a great song by Kate Bush! Not many men have that honour


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## ypauly (Aug 11, 2011)

Northerner said:


> No, but he is the subject of a great song by Kate Bush! Not many men have that honour


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## Robster65 (Aug 11, 2011)

Getting back on topic, away from party politics, it would be fair to say that all politicians use most events as a chance to push their policies and attack the opposition.

They seem to be wanting to introduce new laws and powers for when it next happens rather than trying to prevent it happening again. It doesn't bode well for the future.
Labour kept introducing new laws rather than make sure exisiting ones were policed and enforced properly. This government are falling into the same trap.

I just hope they don't translate the Daily Mail's wishes into policies. We're all doomed then.

Rob


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## muddlethru (Aug 11, 2011)

I get sick and tired hearing that they are so poor and they make it an excuse to steal. What is poor? Not having a flat screen or all the gadgets and latest trainers etc. I was brought up in a Glasgow tenement. There were FOUR  families on our landing and we shared ONE TOILET among us. No baths or hot water. My Mum was a "single"  mum for six years while my dad was away fighting in a war. I went to school with holes in my shoes and my clothes were made from cut me downs. Jumpers gloves etc were made from unpicked old wollens . Food was sparse but we survived. Were we badly behaved because of it, no we weren't we were taught to respect our elders , teachers and the police. At school you got the belt and boy did it hurt but did it turn me into a thug, no it didn't. I grew up with respect for my fellow human being no matter what age colour or creed. I'm just a normal loving caring person and feel so heartbroken to see the country I love in flames  and with a destroyed reputation at the hands of theses mindless criminals.My heart goes out to those who have lost homes, property and jobs and to the police  who are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't.


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## Northerner (Aug 11, 2011)

Well said muddlethru  Anyone who wants to imagine a true picture of poverty and deprivation should read Mary Barton by Mrs Gaskell. And anyone who wants to see how to protest with dignity should read up about the Jarrow March. But, these weren't protests. I just heard in the newsagents that there is a suggestion of trouble being planned here in Southampton for tomorrow night. I think/hope that they have had the sting taken out of their tails now they have seen they won't necessarily get away with it, with the hundreds charged and shamed, and seen the disgust of the majority of decent people.


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## Robster65 (Aug 11, 2011)

I'm following a few tweets from the magistrates courts. Someone with no previous convictions got 6 months for stealing a case of water from Lidl. They're not being at all lenient, which may or may not turn out to be what's needed.

I don't see that it will deter many nor change those who looted for the better.

But there aren't many options available.

Rob


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## Northerner (Aug 11, 2011)

Robster65 said:


> I'm following a few tweets from the magistrates courts. Someone with no previous convictions got 6 months for stealing a case of water from Lidl. They're not being at all lenient, which may or may not turn out to be what's needed.
> 
> I don't see that it will deter many nor change those who looted for the better.
> 
> ...



I've just been watching a game show called Pointless. Isn't risking a crtiminal record for water rather pointless? Do these people not have taps?


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## Ellie Jones (Aug 11, 2011)

Funny thing is that we sit here, blaming the government, blaming bad parenting, blaming everything apart from oursevels!

Didn't we vote verious governments in, didn't we agree that yes we stop smacking our kids, violence breds violene, didn't we all start saying, poor soul he/she they're from a single parent family, oh dear they've been taking drugs, or there parents have etc..

But our Child will get more than I did, they will have the best I show the world that I care I go to work so that I can buy them those desinger, trainers, coats and yes my child will have a laptop, the game station, the Flat screen TV Oh don't forget that mobile phone, I must give them a iPhone my child after all deserve the best of the best!!!  I care 

What we need to do, if you want human rights a welfare system, You earn it, this is exceptable behaviour you break it then you lose your rights..  End Of

Then we start saying yes we don't like violence to our child but here's the line at home and in schools, step over this line then you will be phsyically punished..

Oh and the next time we see footage of a police officer hitting or pushing somebody when there is public disorder...  We don't cry out for that officer to be brought to accountablity, we say tough they shouldn't be there!


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## Northerner (Aug 11, 2011)

Ellie Jones said:


> Funny thing is that we sit here, blaming the government, blaming bad parenting, blaming everything apart from oursevels!
> ...



I didn't vote for any of the governments since I got the vote in 1976, and I'm not a parent, so I feel justified in not blaming myself


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## Steff (Aug 11, 2011)

Northerner said:


> I didn't vote for any of the governments since I got the vote in 1976, and I'm not a parent, so I feel justified in not blaming myself



Snap so im safe in the knowledge im not to blame,I am a parent and a very old fashiioned parent at that I have my fathers good values instilled in me and those will carry through to my son.


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## Robster65 (Aug 11, 2011)

Sadly, you can't assume that the police officer doing the pushing is 'just doing his job'.

There's plenty of corrupt policemen and violent policemen and politically motivated policemen, who will have their own agenda and will make very wrong decisions rather than follow the official line.

When they use excessive force against someone who isn't as much in the wrong as they appear (eg. mentally ill and not able to decide for themselves where they should be) then that policeman should be governed by the same rules as the rest of us. A uniform doesn't give them the privilege of deciding for themselves who does and doesn't deserve and shove or a damn good kicking.

That's why the police shouldn't be given carte blanche to do what they please against rioters or protestors or people they don;t like the look of. They are there to uphold the law and keep the peace.

ROb


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## ypauly (Aug 11, 2011)

Northerner said:


> I didn't vote for any of the governments since I got the vote in 1976, and I'm not a parent, so I feel justified in not blaming myself



Well I heard it was all your fault lol


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## Paul (Aug 11, 2011)

Northerner said:


> I didn't vote for any of the governments since I got the vote in 1976, and I'm not a parent, so I feel justified in not blaming myself



perhaps if people were not so bone idle and apathetic when it come to voting we would have a strong government in power and not one no one voted for.


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## Steff (Aug 11, 2011)

Paul said:


> perhaps if people were not so bone idle and apathetic when it come to voting we would have a strong government in power and not one no one voted for.



How rude,its someones choice whether or not they want to vote,I would not dream of berating you because you had voted

Like i mentioned several hours ago,this thread has veered more into a political row then anything else.


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## Paul (Aug 11, 2011)

Steff said:


> How rude,its someones choice whether or not they want to vote,I would not dream of berating you because you had voted



I don't wish to upset anyone but if our for fathers who fought and died to give us the vote did not give a dam we might all be wishing we had a police force to be proud of and not scared of.


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 11, 2011)

Paul said:


> perhaps if people were not so bone idle and apathetic when it come to voting we would have a strong government in power and not one no one voted for.



Northie didn't say he didn't vote, he said in he didn't vote for any of the parties that won the last 10 or so elections.
Northie is actually a political weathervane, the pollsters should ask him who he voted for and they will know who should win the election !


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## Northerner (Aug 11, 2011)

mcdonagh47 said:


> Northie didn't say he didn't vote, he said in he didn't vote for any of the parties that won the last 10 or so elections.
> Northie is actually a political weathervane, the pollsters should ask him who he voted for and they will know who should win the election !



Haha! I'm waiting for you, psephologists!


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## Paul (Aug 11, 2011)

I do not wish to upset anyone I just believe that voting should be considered as a part of national duty. Not to vote means being unable to take a stand on issues or to be acquiescent about the policies undertaken by those in charge. It also means a sign of public protest when the turnout is very low.
Voting is better than looting.


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