# Whatever Johnson says, we can’t defeat Covid with ‘personal responsibility’ alone



## Northerner (Jul 11, 2021)

At a time when Covid cases in Britain stand at some 25,000 per day and are doubling every nine days or so, the government has chosen to lift nearly all remaining Covid measures. Boris Johnson stressed in a press conference on 5 July that this didn’t mean the pandemic was over. Far from it. He acknowledged the policy change would lead to even more infections, hospitalisations, even deaths. But his repeated mantra was that we must change the way we deal with the pandemic and “move from universal government diktat to relying on people’s personal responsibility”.

This stress on “personal responsibility” has been a defining part of the government’s message throughout the pandemic, frequently accompanied by the suggestion that rises in infection are the result of irresponsible behaviour: flouting rules, holding house parties or (as Matt Hancock claimed when speaking about spiking cases in Bolton), choosing not to get vaccinated. But never before has personal responsibility been the government’s sole tool in the fight against Covid.

There is a crucial problem with this policy shift. Wearing masks, social distancing and self-isolating are all areas where my behaviours impact you. Just as my choice to drive fast affects your chances of travelling safely, so my choice to wear a mask or not impacts your chances of getting infected. Because these behaviours are a “we” rather than an “I” thing, we generally accept that they should be regulated at a communal level. We don’t regard that as “diktat” – much in the same way that we don’t regard speeding laws or the Highway Code as tyranny. To the contrary, the absence of such rules creates a free-for-all in which the powerful generally do what they like and the powerless pay the consequences.









						Whatever Johnson says, we can’t defeat Covid with ‘personal responsibility’ alone | Stephen Reicher
					

Making measures such as mask-wearing an individual choice sends a message that they’re no longer important, says Stephen Reicher, a member of the Sage subcommittee advising on behavioural science




					www.theguardian.com


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## pm133 (Jul 11, 2021)

People like Stephen Reicher are not simply going to walk away quietly from their positions of control and influence so this sort of statement shouldn't be a surprise.

I expect the levels of shrieking hysteria from people like him to continue to grow for some time.
In the meantime, serious illness, hospitalisations and deaths amongst doubly vaccinated people continues to essentially flatline.

The big problems to solve are finishing off the vaccination program, working out what to do with the crippling test and trace which is currently leaving the NHS chronically short staffed and finally what we do about school age kids.

Everything else from government "science" advisors like Reicher, Susan Michie, Christina Pagel, Deepti Gurdasani, Devi Sridhar and a host of others is just distracting noise.


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## pm133 (Jul 12, 2021)

So that's both Javid and Johnson both confirmed that legally enforced mask wearing will cease next Monday as well as all other social distancing in England.
All businesses can now re-open with no limits on attendance at sporting events.

I honestly thought they were going to back-pedal from this.

Looks pretty close to back to normal to me.


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## Bruce Stephens (Jul 12, 2021)

pm133 said:


> I honestly thought they were going to back-pedal from this.


I think they can't in the sense that I think the regulatory law expires and there's little chance they'd be able to persuade their MPs to vote to extend it again. (Labour might possibly support some kind of extension but that has obvious problems.)

(They could possibly get an extension of some bits (masks on public transport, for example) but it seems like those will happen by other means anyway.)


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## Bruce Stephens (Jul 12, 2021)

pm133 said:


> Looks pretty close to back to normal to me.


Unless you're looking to have non-urgent surgery any time soon.


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## Northerner (Jul 12, 2021)

pm133 said:


> Looks pretty close to back to normal to me.


Basically, what Javid and Johnson said was that the only thing they want to change is that they no longer have to take the responsibility and blame for anything - do what you want, but we'd now rather that you didn't because it will probably end badly. No mixed messages there, then  Big shift in tone from a week ago, which suggests the numbers are actually worse than they were expecting and now they are worried their gamble might not pay off.









						Mixed messages: the changing government narrative on face masks
					

When poll showed people thought Covid rules were being eased too quickly, the messaging changed




					www.theguardian.com


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## pm133 (Jul 12, 2021)

Northerner said:


> Basically, what Javid and Johnson said was that the only thing they want to change is that they no longer have to take the responsibility and blame for anything - do what you want, but we'd now rather that you didn't because it will probably end badly. No mixed messages there, then  Big shift in tone from a week ago, which suggests the numbers are actually worse than they were expecting and now they are worried their gamble might not pay off.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If they don't open now would you accept another full year of restrictions on the back of numbers which show low numbers of hospitalisations and very few deaths?
That was the only other credible option because they cannot open up after September in case anything goes wrong right at the start of flu season.

So what would you do?
Open now or wait another year?


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## trophywench (Jul 13, 2021)

Well of course it will be entirely our own fault if anyone happens to catch 'IT' after next Monday.  Not like anyone could ever attach blame to 'The Government' for anything whatever, now is it?  AND most importantly - it is absolutely de rigeur to ALWAYS have someone to attach BLAME to, for anything and everything.


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## pm133 (Jul 13, 2021)

trophywench said:


> Well of course it will be entirely our own fault if anyone happens to catch 'IT' after next Monday.  Not like anyone could ever attach blame to 'The Government' for anything whatever, now is it?  AND most importantly - it is absolutely de rigeur to ALWAYS have someone to attach BLAME to, for anything and everything.



No problem with others expressing an opinion but in my experience, those who indulge most in finger pointing and blame casting are almost always the last to come up with any credible alternative solutions of their own which don't fall apart within 20 seconds of questioning.

I can count the number of exceptions on one hand.

It seems to be one of those facts of life things.

If people want to criticise, they should be brave enough to suggest an alternative and then be brave enough to face having that alternative questioned - all done in a civil manner of course. We'd be a better society for that I think. Just as an aside, rich people are excellent at this because they are taught how to properly debate from school level onwards. There's a lesson there I think.


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## Lucyr (Jul 13, 2021)

The advice for those of us with diabetes / cv / cev was a bit confusing, I expected more of a stronger message for us about continuing to work from home if you can. All I’ve found is that it’s suggested you avoid meeting people indoors and avoid unvaccinated people. I don’t really understand what that means in reality though for what I should / shouldn’t be doing, whether I have enough to say i need to  continue working from home should my employer request us to go back now, etc.


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## trophywench (Jul 13, 2021)

@Lucyr - I think that the Gov expects every employed person in the UK to be able to have a calm discussion about their own personal situation with their employer and reach a mutually acceptable solution.

How the heck does one 'avoid unvaccinated people' in the first place?


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## Lucyr (Jul 13, 2021)

trophywench said:


> @Lucyr - I think that the Gov expects every employed person in the UK to be able to have a calm discussion about their own personal situation with their employer and reach a mutually acceptable solution.
> 
> How the heck does one 'avoid unvaccinated people' in the first place?


To avoid unvaccinated people I presume you just need to not go anywhere near your kids/grandkids/pupils if you’re a teacher/unidentifiable unvaccinated strangers that might come near you…. Etc?


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## pm133 (Jul 13, 2021)

Lucyr said:


> The advice for those of us with diabetes / cv / cev was a bit confusing, I expected more of a stronger message for us about continuing to work from home if you can. All I’ve found is that it’s suggested you avoid meeting people indoors and avoid unvaccinated people. I don’t really understand what that means in reality though for what I should / shouldn’t be doing, whether I have enough to say i need to  continue working from home should my employer request us to go back now, etc.



In reality it means the government has no further advice for those of us who are vulnerable.
They believe they've done everything they can reasonably be expected to do and that it's up to us to now decide how we want to deal with any ongoing risks.

They've doubly vaccinated most people now and will continue that but they now believe they need to turn their attention to more pressing matters which are resulting in significantly higher death levels than covid such as cancer.

If anyone is seriously worried about masking, I suggest you go and buy some FFP3 masks as I believe that evidence shows they will protect the wearer. That way the wearer becomes less dependent on others to wear their masks. There were some figures showing that NHS wards which used them instead of the normal blue masks saw a dramatic reduction in staff sickness. I'm actually not sure why the government are not recommending that as a way forward for vulnerable people.


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## trophywench (Jul 13, 2021)

They've only vaccinated those that accept vaccinations voluntarily.  One lady we know by virtue of being members of the same caravan/camping club and met her and her husband on club rallies in France, and still see her virtually on Zoom meetings didn't go for hers; she's never had a flu jab either - she's never had flu anyway so reckons that means she's never going to get the flu and has said all along that she can't see the point of jabbing against Covid either.

I can avoid her if I happen to see her of course, since I know who she is.  You don't - so how on earth are you supposed to avoid your paths crossing?

Just because people happen to be elderly and not in an ethnic group who it's been said/publicised may be vaccine averse, we cannot safely assume folk at large will have been vaccinated.  Some will and some won't.


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## mikeyB (Jul 13, 2021)

Some folk (including Northie) forget that Boris Johnson only governs England's Covid Policy. In Scotland, as pm133 knows, mask wearing and social distancing is maintained and *mandatory *in public places. Wales is also slightly different.

It seems the Scottish government has in mind the current increase in cases, which is entirely the fault of the English government not putting India on the no fly and no entry list at the same time as it did Pakistan and Bangladesh, allowing the new variant to enter the country free as bird to take root and spread throughout the UK. And now Boris won't make even masks mandatory or social distancing compulsory, relying on our own personal judgement. My own personal judgement is Boris is not fit to lead the country as cases multiply. Every scientist from the WHO downwards thinks it is too soon for "Freedom Day". It sure isn't Freedom Day for for folk like our Amigo for whom vaccines won't work.


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## pm133 (Jul 13, 2021)

trophywench said:


> They've only vaccinated those that accept vaccinations voluntarily.  One lady we know by virtue of being members of the same caravan/camping club and met her and her husband on club rallies in France, and still see her virtually on Zoom meetings didn't go for hers; she's never had a flu jab either - she's never had flu anyway so reckons that means she's never going to get the flu and has said all along that she can't see the point of jabbing against Covid either.
> 
> I can avoid her if I happen to see her of course, since I know who she is.  You don't - so how on earth are you supposed to avoid your paths crossing?
> 
> Just because people happen to be elderly and not in an ethnic group who it's been said/publicised may be vaccine averse, we cannot safely assume folk at large will have been vaccinated.  Some will and some won't.



No government can ever guarantee safety but that seems to be what people are demanding now.
We don't live in a society where we force people to put medicine in their bodies against their clearly expressed will and the argument of the knock-on effect on others as a result of refusing vaccines isn't good enough to change that principle.
The way I feel about this is to ask myself a question - _who am I to insist that someone else takes medicine against their will just to keep me feeling safe?_

You can't be sure to avoid unvaccinated people and there's simply no resolution to that. Not in England, not in Scotland, not in Australia, not in the US. Not anywhere. Nobody has an answer to this.

There are no guarantees with covid or any other virus. The vaccines are not 100%, masks don't work, lockdown isn't 100% because we still have to shop, social distancing isn't 100%, shutting down football, pubs and nightclubs hasn't worked and a combination of all of that over the span of an entire year hasn't worked either. We see wave after wave of cases in every country in the world where they've been unable to strictly close their borders (presumably permanently).

So what do we vulnerable people do? My choice is to say fuck it, I'm living my life and if I catch this and die then so be it.  We only get a few years of life anyway. The alternative is to never see my kids or my friends again and lock myself in my house, ekeing out an existence until I die, terrified that at any second I might catch this thing and quite frankly that's not a life I'm interested in living. I'm not going to criticise others for making different choices but I'm fed up with other people restricting my personal decisions. It's been a year. I'm doubly vaccinated as are most other vulnerable people. There really is nothing more which can credibly be done.


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## pm133 (Jul 13, 2021)

mikeyB said:


> Some folk (including Northie) forget that Boris Johnson only governs England's Covid Policy. In Scotland, as pm133 knows, mask wearing and social distancing is maintained and *mandatory *in public places. Wales is also slightly different.
> 
> It seems the Scottish government has in mind the current increase in cases, which is entirely the fault of the English government not putting India on the no fly and no entry list at the same time as it did Pakistan and Bangladesh, allowing the new variant to enter the country free as bird to take root and spread throughout the UK. And now Boris won't make even masks mandatory or social distancing compulsory, relying on our own personal judgement. My own personal judgement is Boris is not fit to lead the country as cases multiply. Every scientist from the WHO downwards thinks it is too soon for "Freedom Day". It sure isn't Freedom Day for for folk like our Amigo for whom vaccines won't work.


The current Scottish government is absolutely terrified of being tarred with the same brush as Boris but they are hamstrung about what restrictions they can keep in place once England goes to full freedom and furlough payments stop.

So they continue to make a song and dance about "caring more" whilst keeping themselves 3 weeks behind England so that they can see whether Boris' plans work before committing themselves to the same path. It's an abdication of responsibility. Whatever you think of Boris, he at least has the balls to make a decision. Nicola has fallen well short of the mark on that score.

I like Nicola but today's nonsense about masking remaining "for some time" has finally cost her my vote after countless years of voting SNP. If she truly cared about the vulnerable, she'd issue FFP3 masks. Instead we have this ongoing charade. It's looking very much like masks are going to remain until next year now and if that happens, there's a very real risk they'll be kept in law permanently.


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## pm133 (Jul 13, 2021)

mikeyB said:


> Every scientist from the WHO downwards thinks it is too soon for "Freedom Day".



Mikey, that isn't even remotely true.
Scientists are divided on everything about covid from masks to lockdown and the end of restrictions. You'll find disagreement at every major institution in the world.
Most scientific discussion doesn't happen under the glare of BBC news reports.
There is no scientific consensus because there are no definitive answers on anything. 

If anyone thinks they can get scientists to agree on anything, good luck to you.


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## mikeyB (Jul 13, 2021)

@pm133, you keep saying masks don't work. That is only true if you are wearing a mask and nobody else is. They won't protect against a heavy virus load in, say a sneeze. But if everyone wears a mask, the risk of droplet spread is reduced by around 90%. This has been scientifically (and practically) demonstrated. 

You will have noticed that in those countries who endured the SARS epidemic instantly started wearing masks, and as a result were able to keep the virus under control, and operate their T&T without any overwhelming problem. And the people knew that was what they had to do, it was hardly necessary for governments to advise that, it's just what they do in epidemics.

And are you saying the Scottish government is not reacting to scientific and epidemical advice?


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## Lucyr (Jul 13, 2021)

pm133 said:


> In reality it means the government has no further advice for those of us who are vulnerable.
> They believe they've done everything they can reasonably be expected to do and that it's up to us to now decide how we want to deal with any ongoing risks.
> 
> They've doubly vaccinated most people now and will continue that but they now believe they need to turn their attention to more pressing matters which are resulting in significantly higher death levels than covid such as cancer.
> ...


My issue in that I’m not able to wear a mask myself. There are some places I can limit my exposure such as going shopping at a quiet time (can’t really do home delivery as I live alone and don’t meet the minimum spend), but others like work where I need to see what my employer decides is the plan.


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## Eddy Edson (Jul 13, 2021)

Masks: an interesting thread by early mask proponent, Trisha Greenhalg (primary care prof at Oxford): 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1414294003479089154


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## Northerner (Jul 13, 2021)

Eddy Edson said:


> Masks: an interesting thread by early mask proponent, Trisha Greenhalg (primary care prof at Oxford):
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1414294003479089154


Spot on  And there is no economic harm from continuing a mask mandate, I really don't understand why people can't see this


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## NotWorriedAtAll (Jul 13, 2021)

Well a friend of mine from across the water just shared a newspaper report from Mississippi. This is not just about protecting 'the vulnerable'  it is about protecting those who have previously been considered magically protected - the children.  The Delta variant is not taking a summer break.

I think wearing masks and keeping social distancing is a good idea.  And if people need hospital treatment for non-Covid medical situations then surely making sure the hospitals are not over run with Covid cases is probably a good way to help them have their appointments and treatments carried out?

I don't see how anything is going to be helped by letting Covid and all the other flus and communicable diseases that have been restrained by masks and social distancing have their free reign through the population.  The vaccine is only part of a mix of strategies that together will keep us acceptably safe. Take one of the strategies away and the others are made less effective.

*12 children in the ICU, 10 on life support.*


			https://www.wreg.com/news/10-children-on-life-support-in-mississippi-as-delta-variant-cases-surge/?fbclid=IwAR3As2QmhOJn2pizKLkuQHGBjO7uutEt6iIRUi_0H-IamoC2ChepjVVRNgI
		



And their local health team is suggesting these measures now to try and stop it becoming even more of a disaster.
Hospitalizations surge in Mississippi due to Delta variant, health officials say 
On Tuesday, the Mississippi State Department of Health (MSDH) reported 219 new coronavirus cases and 10 additional deaths across the state.

Last week, MSDH issued new public health guidance due to the increase in COVID-19 cases. The agency issued the following recommendations:


Those 65 and older should avoid all indoor mass gatherings (regardless of vaccination status)
All Mississippi residents with chronic underlying medical conditions avoid all indoor mass gatherings
All Mississippians 12 years of age and older receive COVID vaccination
All unimmunized wear a mask when indoors in public setting


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## Bruce Stephens (Jul 13, 2021)

pm133 said:


> They've doubly vaccinated most people now and will continue that but they now believe they need to turn their attention to more pressing matters which are resulting in significantly higher death levels than covid such as cancer.


Hospitalisations now rising at (nearly) the same rate as cases (in the sense that they're doubling roughly every 11 days, numbers are much lower, obviously, and they're much lower than they were in January).


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1414658909239918595


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## Amigo (Jul 13, 2021)

mikeyB said:


> Some folk (including Northie) forget that Boris Johnson only governs England's Covid Policy. In Scotland, as pm133 knows, mask wearing and social distancing is maintained and *mandatory *in public places. Wales is also slightly different.
> 
> It seems the Scottish government has in mind the current increase in cases, which is entirely the fault of the English government not putting India on the no fly and no entry list at the same time as it did Pakistan and Bangladesh, allowing the new variant to enter the country free as bird to take root and spread throughout the UK. And now Boris won't make even masks mandatory or social distancing compulsory, relying on our own personal judgement. My own personal judgement is Boris is not fit to lead the country as cases multiply. Every scientist from the WHO downwards thinks it is too soon for "Freedom Day". It sure isn't Freedom Day for for folk like our Amigo for whom vaccines won't work.



Thanks for recognising that ‘Freedom Day’ isn’t an equal opportunity occasion Mike. We have many thousands of pretty concerned (scared) people with cancer of the immune system, including me, who probably haven’t responded to the vaccine because they can’t make the antibodies and know their chance of surviving Covid is estimated at about 34%. Incidentally they’re not all old people expecting to die anytime soon! 
We were part of the 1.8 million who shielded faithfully, at great personal expense (including not receiving our cancer treatments) because to go out would have compromised not just us but primarily the NHS.
Before anyone jumps in and tells me we can’t hold the world back because of us, surprisingly we know that but life would be less scary if the Govt had held back on throwing out all the precautions before the vaccinations were finished. Can we really rely on those who are invincible and couldn’t give a rat’s tu tu to keep their distance or wear a mask in confined situations? The younger people are the main vectors presently and they are not yet vaccinated.
The only advice we’ve received so far from Boris & Crew is in Hill Street Blues style, ‘please be careful out there!’ No help for those who will be required to work in maskless environments with no regard for social distancing. Because hey, it’s Freedom Day! Yippee!


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## Bloden (Jul 13, 2021)

trophywench said:


> How the heck does one 'avoid unvaccinated people' in the first place?


They’re the people in the pink hats.  (Short of going round asking people - from a safe distance, of course - “Excuse me, have you been doubly vaccinated?” - the answer is...too rude to type here).


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## pm133 (Jul 14, 2021)

mikeyB said:


> @pm133, you keep saying masks don't work.


And I am pretty sure that last week you posted that you agreed with me on that.


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## pm133 (Jul 14, 2021)

mikeyB said:


> @pm133, you keep saying masks don't work. That is only true if you are wearing a mask and nobody else is. They won't protect against a heavy virus load in, say a sneeze. But if everyone wears a mask, the risk of droplet spread is reduced by around 90%. This has been scientifically (and practically) demonstrated.
> 
> You will have noticed that in those countries who endured the SARS epidemic instantly started wearing masks, and as a result were able to keep the virus under control, and operate their T&T without any overwhelming problem. And the people knew that was what they had to do, it was hardly necessary for governments to advise that, it's just what they do in epidemics.
> 
> And are you saying the Scottish government is not reacting to scientific and epidemical advice?


Let's leave aside the fact that you've changed your minbd in a week about the effectiveness of masks.

If masks work and we've had 90% compliance for over a year, why are we on our 3rd massive wave of infections?

Why are we so much worse than virtually any other country in the world?

Why is Scotland the worse country in Europe for cases?

I don't live in any other country so I can't tell you why any other country is showing low case numbers.

By the way, the virus doesn't just travel on droplets. It clearly doesn't because masks apparently stop those and we're on our 3rd wave. Nobody is wandering around coughing and sneezing in public right now. It's an airborne virus which is travelling on the moisture in every breath you take and make, most of which comes through your mask or out the edges because they are not sealed and the moisture in your breath is small enough to get through the pores in your mask and then those small covid-filled particles hang in the air. The virus can't tell the difference between droplets and normal water particles from breathing.


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## pm133 (Jul 14, 2021)

Lucyr said:


> My issue in that I’m not able to wear a mask myself. There are some places I can limit my exposure such as going shopping at a quiet time (can’t really do home delivery as I live alone and don’t meet the minimum spend), but others like work where I need to see what my employer decides is the plan.



I don't have any answers to this Lucy and it looks like the government don't either.


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## pm133 (Jul 14, 2021)

Eddy Edson said:


> Masks: an interesting thread by early mask proponent, Trisha Greenhalg (primary care prof at Oxford):
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1414294003479089154


So there's someone who actually was involved in research into masks and admits the evidence is sketchy.

Her argument is that we should be wearing for "moral reasons".

Well she is welcome to do whatever she wants.
As are those of us who don't agree that masking up is a moral issue.


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## pm133 (Jul 14, 2021)

mikeyB said:


> And are you saying the Scottish government is not reacting to scientific and epidemical advice?



I'm saying that there is no "settled science" on this stuff.
Every country is following different advice and rules, even within the UK we have 4 parliaments/assemblies doing different things.

The Scottish government are making it up as they go along, just like every other country. What drives Sturgeon is not wanting to look like Boris. You also have to bear in mind that every thing she does is through the prism of Scottish Independence. She is terrified of making a mistake and killing that issue because if they lose any future IndyRef2, that'll probably settle things for the next 30-50 years. Her entire political life has been aimed squarely at Independence.

Keeping masks is an easy way of making it look like you care and most importantly they encourage people to socially distance. THAT is the only real benefit of masking. That was why they were introduced by the UK governments behavioural scientists. 

Have everyone already forgotten that less than a year ago the same scientists were telling us all that masks didn't work? The WHO didn't recommend them either. In fact the likes of Whitty were pointing out that wearing them brought dangers. Have people really forgotten all this?


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## pm133 (Jul 14, 2021)

Bruce Stephens said:


> Hospitalisations now rising at (nearly) the same rate as cases (in the sense that they're doubling roughly every 11 days, numbers are much lower, obviously, and they're much lower than they were in January).
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1414658909239918595



The person who tweeted that asks "what next?"
Well there is only one thing to do next.
Vaccinate everyone twice and get a booster program up and running.

There's nothing here we don't already know unless they are telling us that these hospitalisations are affecting doubly vaccinated people in a proportion way beyond what we would expect for vaccines which are not 100% effective.

Vaccines are our only way out of this.
In the meantime, the UK governments all believe it's time to start thinking about other health issues.


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## mikeyB (Jul 14, 2021)

Boris doesn't worry about having blood on his hands. He went against scientific advice by ignoring it until forced by the death rate before imposing the first lockdown, and delayed equally before locking down the second time.

Now he has cut the rate of overseas aid from 0.7% of GDP to 0.5%. That will cause deaths worldwide. He is now held in contempt by every aid agency in the world. Any fool can work out that this is not a necessary cut. Aid would be reduced by 0.7% of a smaller economy, so it's not the economy that has precipitated this change. It's the millionaire Sunak who wants the money, stolen from the starving people of the world, to help him do his sums without increasing tax. That's why they won't maintain the £20 uplift in Universal Credit.

You may know we are buying up to 35 F-35 jets for our Aircraft Carriers. They cost around 100 million dollars. Each. and around 35,000 dollars an hour to fly. And Sunak says there's no money around. To say nothing about the £8000 per second that our nuclear "defence" costs.

Folk like that don't care about a few excess people dying, whatever the cost. They need our income tax to fund all this, so they _have _to get people back to work, and pretend that it's the people's own fault if they get infected.


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## pm133 (Jul 14, 2021)

Anyway, the masking issue is decided.

England is getting rid of their mandatory use on Monday although the London Mayor seems to think he can force their use on London Transport.

And Scotland's deputy first minister John Swinney has said he expects masks will still be mandatory in Scotland at Christmas, which means they are here to stay for at least another year because they won't remove the mandate in the middle of flu season. Sounds like Wales and NI are in the same boat.

Maybe those of us in Scotland who don't want masks can house swap with those in England who want to keep them mandatory, on a 6-monthly basis. Anyone up for that?


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## mikeyB (Jul 14, 2021)

Maybe those folk in Scotland who don’t want masks can just stay at home and suffer in silence.

By the way, the Scottish government have acted differently to the English government backseats they have their own medical advisers. They also have an increase in the number of people infected, as they do in England. It’s nothing to do with politics, it’s caring for the people. 

They are moving to Level 0 next week, but with masking still in place while vaccinations continue till the job is done.

And the clue to Nicola Sturgeon being dedicated to independence is in the SNP manifesto for all to see. She just hasn’t mentioned it much at her Coronavirus updates, only the opposition do that.


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## pm133 (Jul 14, 2021)

mikeyB said:


> Maybe those folk in Scotland who don’t want masks can just stay at home and suffer in silence.



No need for that Mikey.
This isn't Twitter.
You seem to routinely forget that.

And with your second paragraph where you attempt to turn this into a "morality" issue, I'm going to bail from further discussion on the matter.
I also don't need anyone mansplaining what is happening in my own country.
Covid is a matter of medicine and science and I'll only discuss it on those terms.
If you want to make it about "morals" and "caring" then I'll leave you to discuss it with others.

Deary me, you fair triggered me there. I'm away for a coffee to calm down.


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## mikeyB (Jul 14, 2021)

I've never used Twitter, and never will, so I have nothing to "routinely forget." The comment was written as such to make a point that seems both obvious and brief. 

Nor did I suggest any moral aspect. And if you don't like Nicola Sturgeon's obvious worries about about how best to care for her population, in direct contrast with the English PM, then tough. Her advice is guided by medical and epidemiolocal advice that she listens to from her advisers, again in contrast to  the idiot in charge of England. Blame her advisers, if you want to blame anybody. It is not, and never has been a political decision, except in England.

And I should add, if you use coffee to calm down, then I'm not in the least surprised that you invent reasons for my intentions that don't exist.


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