# Low carb: Fat or fiction



## pottersusan (Jan 21, 2016)

apparently we don't need carbs in our diet! Admittedly, life would be easier without them, but...


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## AndBreathe (Jan 21, 2016)

It is my belief that carbs have no nutritional value, on a day to day basis.  If I didn't love vegetables so much, I could probably forego carbs.

There's no doubt some of them taste delightful, and they are addictive, but for a T2, who is keen to manage my condition, long term (ideally life-long) without the help of medication, I believe it is in my best interest to significantly reduce my carb consumption, as compared to healthy, non-diabetic individuals.

You do believe we _need_ carbohydrate?


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## Annette (Jan 22, 2016)

When Im hypo, I NEED carbs cos a BG of 2.7 and a lump of cheese just isnt going to cut it...


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## everydayupsanddowns (Jan 22, 2016)

Personally I have a problem with both the 'must base every meal on' and 'are completely evil and must all be avoided at all costs' positions.

What I can see is a general shift over time towards a significantly more carb-focussed approach to official health advice in the 1980s (just about the time when our average waistlines started siginificantly expanding). But this is also a period where (well... from the 1970s onwards really) there was a move towards increasingly processed, pre-packaged, convenient, low-effort, beige, e-number filled foods. A huge growth in the power of the food companies, explosion in availability of fast food outlets and a significant cultural shift towards '*every 10 minutes of every day provides a consumption opportunity*', where cakes/snacks/treats get ever larger in size. When was the last time your supermarket did 3 for 2 or 50% extra free on veg or salad. How about chocolate, crisps, biscuits, fizzy drinks or cake (or cake bars... or snack bars... or breakfast-replacement flapjacks... or... or...?)

I think Milky Way has a lot to answer for "The sweet you can eat between meals without ruining your appetite". 

Just look at the way most diet plans are advertised on TV - it's all snack bars and puddings.

I absolutely believe that carbs *can* provide a useful, healthy part of a person's diet (with or without diabetes) and there are *some* carbs in virtually everything. As with most things in life it's about _moderation_ in  general and _treats every so often_ for me. And finding what works for you as an individual.


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## DeusXM (Jan 22, 2016)

> Personally I have a problem with both the 'must base every meal on' and 'are completely evil and must all be avoided at all costs' positions.



Exactly.

We might not need carbs, but that doesn't mean you have to exclude them if you don't want to (provided of course you still hit your blood sugar goals).


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## AndBreathe (Jan 22, 2016)

Annette Anderson said:


> When Im hypo, I NEED carbs cos a BG of 2.7 and a lump of cheese just isnt going to cut it...



I appreciate in a hypo situation you need to do something fast and easy to metabolise, but in day-to-day living, I don't believe carbs have any nutritional value to us.  I certainly don't even attempt to go no-carb (although I know someone who does......................... shudder), as my mounds of vegetables and dairy products will introduce some, in conjunction with required nutrients.

At the moment, I generally run at 50-80gr per day, but these days have no apparent adverse reaction (even watching via the Libre) to a more carby diet.  My tastes have just modified and I find the gentle wave much easier to cope with (physically and emotionally) than higher and deeper peaks and troughs.  I also believe that for many insulin dependent folks lower carbs = lower insulin requirements with usually (exceptions to all rules, obviously) lead to fewer errors and potentially fewer hypos, requiring fast carb intake.

Of course as someone who has never taken a diabetes med in her life, I realise it's easy for me to spout like this, but it makes for decent discussion/debate.


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## AndBreathe (Jan 22, 2016)

DeusXM said:


> Exactly.
> 
> We might not need carbs, but that doesn't mean you have to exclude them if you don't want to (provided of course you still hit your blood sugar goals).



I couldn't agree more, but for many T2s, who would like to avoid meds or hefty meds that is a real challenge.

Personally, I would rather forego some spaghetti or spuds if it means I don't have to ask my body to metabolise pharmaceutical chemicals.  

Of course, that's my choice and doesn't invalidate anyone else's who chooses differently.


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## DeusXM (Jan 22, 2016)

> I couldn't agree more, but for many T2s, who would like to avoid meds or hefty meds that is a real challenge.



Absolutely - hence why I mentioned blood sugar goals. I personally shoot for under 50g a day. It's actually pretty doable once you get in the right mindset. It's amazing how many carby things in our diet are basically just delivery mechanisms for what we actually want to eat eg. the bread in a sandwich, the rice next to a curry, the bun on the burger.


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## AndBreathe (Jan 22, 2016)

DeusXM said:


> Absolutely - hence why I mentioned blood sugar goals. I personally shoot for under 50g a day. It's actually pretty doable once you get in the right mindset. It's amazing how many carby things in our diet are basically just delivery mechanisms for what we actually want to eat eg. the bread in a sandwich, the rice next to a curry, the bun on the burger.



If I could like this post multiple times, I would.

Who needs rice, when it leaves more room for the garlic chilli chicken, or lamb madras?


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## Lynn Davies (Jan 22, 2016)

White carbs are just empty calories


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## Annette (Jan 22, 2016)

AndBreathe said:


> If I could like this post multiple times, I would.
> 
> Who needs rice, when it leaves more room for the garlic chilli chicken, or lamb madras?


I'd go along with that. I eat fairly low carb (<100g) most days cos it suits me to and reduces my risk of hypos due to mismatch of food/digestion/insulin levels). And when I'm feeding myself, it works fine. But at a restaurant. .. I was at a greek place. Asked them to swop the potatoes for a vegetable. Fine, they said. My meal was served with....chips. Aargh!


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## AlisonM (Jan 22, 2016)

> When was the last time your supermarket did 3 for 2 or 50% extra free on veg or salad.


Umm, yesterday actually. I got soup veg and a green veg mix on three for two. As well as three packs of baby sweetcorn and a twofer on easy peelers.

I do the low carb thing, but perhaps not as 'religiously' as I used to pre re-dx. I've relaxed a little since I went on MDI because things are a lot more stable now. But after 6 years, I find myself feeling all bloated, dopey and really uncomfortable if I have a carb-heavy meal, my body has got used to low carb. I tend to void bread these days because my system can't seem to handle it, pasta is a very rare occurrence and potatoes too (unless it's a hypo day). I do have wild rice more often though and seem to cope very well with that. Barley (in soups) and oatmeal pose no problems for me either. The rest of my carbs come mainly from veggies and small amounts of fruit.

I hope I'm not over-bearing about it when encouraging others to follow the low-carb method. I only push it because it works, at least for me and I'm the original Doubting Thomasina, if I'm not sure something works I'm not gong to say owt.


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## AndBreathe (Jan 22, 2016)

AlisonM said:


> Umm, yesterday actually. I got soup veg and a green veg mix on three for two. As well as three packs of baby sweetcorn and a twofer on easy peelers.
> 
> I do the low carb thing, but perhaps not as 'religiously' as I used to pre re-dx. I've relaxed a little since I went on MDI because things are a lot more stable now. But after 6 years, I find myself feeling all bloated, dopey and really uncomfortable if I have a carb-heavy meal, my body has got used to low carb. I tend to void bread these days because my system can't seem to handle it, pasta is a very rare occurrence and potatoes too (unless it's a hypo day). I do have wild rice more often though and seem to cope very well with that. Barley (in soups) and oatmeal pose no problems for me either. The rest of my carbs come mainly from veggies and small amounts of fruit.
> 
> I hope I'm not over-bearing about it when encouraging others to follow the low-carb method. I only push it because it works, at least for me and I'm the original Doubting Thomasina, if I'm not sure something works I'm not gong to say owt.



In my observation, Alison, it works for the vast majority of T2s, and many T1s.  

Sadly, carbs are addictive, and they can taste nice too, which isn't a helpful coupling if you're trying to give them up.  The third thing I find SO (a million times, SO) frustrating is the attitude by some of the medical profession that "diabetics don't want to be bothered to change".  Whilst that may be truthful, not do they want to be bother by neuropathy or sight loss.  And frankly, unless the options are explained to them, they won't even know what the options are.  I have found much of the so-called medical management of my T2 to be just a car-crash.  From the advice to go low-fat, to the Eat Well Plate and so on.  

Just for the record, the comment that "diabetics don't want to be bothered to change" came from an Endocrinologist, at the tea and biccies (eh?) session, following a local meeting when I asked if he had plans to run patient based trials at the local Diabetes Centre for either the Newcastle Diet or the likes of the David Unwin work - which is just low carb diabetes management, with in-house support.  

I just find it incredibly sad that those who like or need to place their absolute faith in our medical profession are being taken down what feels like the easy route, for the medics.  That easy route is little dietary change, a few meds and review in a few months time.

My current GP of choice now has an understanding of low carb and when I discussed the Unwin work with her, and left her with the various papers etc., she wanted to propose a trial at our surgery.  I had offered to do the data gathering/analysis set up and programme protocol and governance documentation without charge, but the partners weren't interested.  This is a practise which reckons diabetes is becoming out of control.  The Unwin practise has not raised it's spend on medications for T2 in the last 3 years.  I wonder which will have the better future?

Sorry about the rant, but somebody, somewhere has to move eventually from their comfort zone.

(And Alison, I can completely understand why, on a decent MDI regime you might relax your eating regime a little.  If I am completely honest, one of the reasons I was evangelic, at diagnosis, about not going on meds was because I felt that if I went down that road, my incentive to practise strict control wouldn't be so great, and I would begin to rely on the crutch.  Where you differ is that you have eventually found something that can offer you are more flexible and comfortable life, in the face of other challenges.  I think I would probably want to go a bit more relaxed in your shoes, at least for a while.)


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## AlisonM (Jan 22, 2016)

@AndBreathe. When they thought I was T2, the support I needed was not forthcoming. I found out about low carb here, but when I mentioned it to the GP and a nurse, they said, "no, you need the carbs". This when my numbers had actually started falling after I cut way down on the pesky critturs. After re-dx, I still had the wrong medication and low-carb was one thing that seemed to make a difference. So I've been pretty strict with myself for years because it was the one thing I seemed able to control that helped. 

In the few months I've been on MDI, my numbers have been far more stable, I've only had one hypo day and one really bad hypo when they used to be an almost weekly occurrence but now I don't actually want the carbs anymore. That addiction seems to be cured. The one thing I loved and still miss is fresh fruit, I used to eat loads before D, now I have only a little now and again, mostly berries and the occasional orange that I seem to be able to get away with.


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## AndBreathe (Jan 22, 2016)

AlisonM said:


> @AndBreathe. When they thought I was T2, the support I needed was not forthcoming. I found out about low carb here, but when I mentioned it to the GP and a nurse, they said, "no, you need the carbs". This when my numbers had actually started falling after I cut way down on the pesky critturs. After re-dx, I still had the wrong medication and low-carb was one thing that seemed to make a difference. So I've been pretty strict with myself for years because it was the one thing I seemed able to control that helped.
> 
> In the few months I've been on MDI, my numbers have been far more stable, I've only had one hypo day and one really bad hypo when they used to be an almost weekly occurrence but now I don't actually want the carbs anymore. That addiction seems to be cured. The one thing I loved and still miss is fresh fruit, I used to eat loads before D, now I have only a little now and again, mostly berries and the occasional orange that I seem to be able to get away with.



Likewise Alison, the thing I might admit to missing is fruit - especially in the tropics where the bananas, pineapples and coconuts grow in the gardens.  I know coconut is fine, but it's not high on my list.  It comes some way behind banana, sour sop, mango, pineapple and papaya, and a decent crunchy apple.  Hey ho.  I could I could eat more fruit these days, but fructose is such a nasty blighter, I don't fancy letting too much of it back onto my planet!

You seem so much better than when I first started reading the forum.  It must be an enormous relief.


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## AlisonM (Jan 22, 2016)

Thanks @AndBreathe, I am doing a lot better in many ways. I have a challenging year ahead with yet more investigative appointments and the case conference, plus of course the thrice damned PIP people to deal with. But, I also have some more positive challenges on the crafts side to balance things out. Hopefully they will keep me from sliding back into the pit of depression.


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## Annette (Jan 22, 2016)

AndBreathe said:


> Likewise Alison, the thing I might admit to missing is fruit - especially in the tropics where the bananas, pineapples and coconuts grow in the gardens.  I know coconut is fine, but it's not high on my list.  It comes some way behind banana, sour sop, mango, pineapple and papaya, and a decent crunchy apple.  Hey ho.  I could I could eat more fruit these days, but fructose is such a nasty blighter, I don't fancy letting too much of it back onto my planet!
> 
> You seem so much better than when I first started reading the forum.  It must be an enormous relief.


Actually,  I dont miss fruit. I used to eat several pieces a day. Now, its more like 1or 2 a week. And I dont miss potatoes or pasta or rice. The one thing I cant give up is bread. I love my bread. But as I can balance that with insulin, I figure I can get away with it, just in smaller amounts than I used to.


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## Matt Cycle (Jan 22, 2016)

Annette Anderson said:


> When Im hypo, I NEED carbs cos a BG of 2.7 and a lump of cheese just isnt going to cut it...



Needed for exercise as well.  Lump of cheese wouldn't be much good on one of my rides either.


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## AndBreathe (Jan 22, 2016)

Matt Cycle said:


> Needed for exercise as well.  Lump of cheese wouldn't be much good on one of my rides either.



Several athletes use ketogenic diets to deal with their exercise.  I can do a day's sailing without carbing up. 






Not arguing with you about what you need, just throwing in a counterpoint.

Sorry, I meant to add the video.


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## Matt Cycle (Jan 22, 2016)

No problem, it's all very interesting.  In my case my BMI is 19.4 (I'm 6' 1 and weigh 67kg) with no excess fat at all - I've always been skinny.  I weigh the same now as when I was diagnosed almost 30 years ago and haven't restricted carbs at all or at least only as part of my diet which I would describe as 'balanced.'  Being T1 throws up challenges at the best of times but certainly so during exercise and I've found fuelling with carbs work best for me during rides.  I would imagine currently that the majority of elite athletes (not that I'm one of them  ) have a carb focussed diet.  Whether that will change over the coming years only time will tell.


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## AndBreathe (Jan 22, 2016)

Matt Cycle said:


> No problem, it's all very interesting.  In my case my BMI is 19.4 (I'm 6' 1 and weigh 67kg) with no excess fat at all - I've always been skinny.  I weigh the same now as when I was diagnosed almost 30 years ago and haven't restricted carbs at all or at least only as part of my diet which I would describe as 'balanced.'  Being T1 throws up challenges at the best of times but certainly so during exercise and I've found fuelling with carbs work best for me during rides.  I would imagine currently that the majority of elite athletes (not that I'm one of them  ) have a carb focussed diet.  Whether that will change over the coming years only time will tell.



We each have to manage our conditions as well as we can, which ever regime we utilise.  I have no beef with anyone who wants use a different diet to me; that's their choice.  I was being Devil's Advocate and illustrating that there are many ways to skin this diabetes cat, for most people.


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## trophywench (Jan 23, 2016)

The disappointing thing is that the people on these forums - are not the majority of diabetics of any type.  So if you imagine that 'most people are more or less like us' that is a HUGE mistake.

I recently was involved in reviewing the content for a new leaflet for patients concerning diabetic pregnancies.  All ladies of course but I don't think that actually matters because first I was horrified to be told that the average reading age of all adults in general registered with the NHS in England is - NINE years of age.  And the average HbA1c of the ladies at first check in their preg?  Nine point something.  Plenty above that but not so many under it and less still under 8.

When anyone makes a remotely sensible suggestion at all on here - well, we're all preaching to the already converted, frankly!


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## pottersusan (Jan 23, 2016)

trophywench said:


> I was horrified to be told that the average reading age of all adults in general registered with the NHS in England is - NINE years of age.  !


The reading age of the red top papers is about 7 and the broadsheets 11.  Doesn't say much for our education system, does it.


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## Northerner (Jan 23, 2016)

Interesting article about LCHF in endurance exercise:

http://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...high-carb-or-high-fat-the-running-diet-debate

Must admit, I've been a runner for 35 years and have never really 'carb-loaded' - I generally run on empty, and top up occasionally with small amounts of carbs depending on distance (up to 8 miles currently, no extra carbs needed, and I start out with just slice of Burgen in my belly). Also, when I was in my 20s my BMI was around 17-18, so didn't have much fat on me either - but I was very light on my feet!


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## pat.y (Jan 23, 2016)

If I may add to this discussion in a slightly different vein. I was diagnosed 12 years type 2 and my blood sugar was 26 at the time. For 12 years I ave followed my surgerys advice, stoke up on pasta and things to stop feeling hungry. Where I live type 2's are not given meters and I was relieved with my needle phobia. After the 12 years my medication went up gradually to 2000mg metformin,  320mg and 100 mg szitagliptin daily and the Habc still rising hence the recommendation for insulin. Since I have been testing for a week and getting advice here my bs levels have dropped to only a little high. I blame the medical profession, out of date advice and not giving meters. Had I known then and had a meter I would not be in the position I am now. ALL diabetics should be given a meter automatically.


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## Northerner (Jan 24, 2016)

Totally agree with you @pat.y - and you are a great example of why! Great to hear that things are improving for you


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## Matt Cycle (Feb 7, 2016)

The GCN guys have waded in to the high carb or low carb and exercise debate with this video.  Not sure it makes it any clearer.  The best bit is the comments underneath - as to be expected it's generated a number of conflicting opinions.


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## pat.y (Feb 12, 2016)

I have amazing news ! I went to the nurse with my own testing sheet today as I was told to do and prepare to be put on insulin.  She looked at my results which I never had before because I wasn't allowed meter. She said you are falling too low in the afternoons 4' and below. We are over medicating you and she removed 2 of my gliclazides and told me to carry on what I was doing and go back in a month with morning only results and see how it went. They won't fund the meter any more though.


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## Diadav99 (Feb 14, 2016)

The Austrakian video at the beginning of the thread is really informative and food for thought. As someone still coming to terms with diagnosis and awaiting my DESMOND input the whole diet thing is particularly confusing. Have to say that what has struck a chord is that eating large amounts of a substance (carbs) that is the catayst for raising my blood sugar levels to unhealthy levels seems simply self destructive. My biggest problem is trying to establish a working low carb regime thats higher in healthy fat. Firstly im not too sure what fats are more health ie can i eat cheese ? If so whats more effective chedar feta etc. Ive never been much of a red meat eater so perhaps limited in my options somewhat. Im also aware that @ 58 i have to consider my health in general and not focus wholly on diabetes.  Work in progress and hage to say this place is a great resource for folk like me coming to terms with this , thanks .


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## hope123 (Feb 14, 2016)

But crusty wholemeal bread is so more'ish........


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## pottersusan (Feb 14, 2016)

chris barnett said:


> But crusty wholemeal bread is so more'ish........


I agree, but it sends my bg stratospheric and I've decided it's not worth it. I eat Burgen and Lidl hi protein rolls


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## Lynn Davies (Feb 14, 2016)

Dai- anything that is a whole natural fat is a healthy fat. The fat on your bacon or pork chop is a natural fat. The fat in cheese and butter is a natural fat.

The only one I still have a problem with using is lard! Stupid of me really as that is fat in its purest form. Must be years of brainwashing that is ingrained in me!


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## Mark Parrott (Feb 14, 2016)

I am tempted to try lard in our deep fat fryer to do celeriac chips.


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## AndBreathe (Feb 15, 2016)

pat.y said:


> I have amazing news ! I went to the nurse with my own testing sheet today as I was told to do and prepare to be put on insulin.  She looked at my results which I never had before because I wasn't allowed meter. She said you are falling too low in the afternoons 4' and below. We are over medicating you and she removed 2 of my gliclazides and told me to carry on what I was doing and go back in a month with morning only results and see how it went. They won't fund the meter any more though.


That's completely bonkers.  I hope they are at least funding the next month or so, as you are on instructed testing?  It's almost like you're doing too well, so we'll take away your tools, and see how you get on then!

If your strips are being withdrawn, then the SD Codefree is the cheapest I know of.  If you need to start self funding, then I can post up links to the relevant site, with discount codes for buying multiple pots of strips.,


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## pat.y (Feb 15, 2016)

I have enough strips for this month. I toyed with the idea of st staying with the nexus mini but then even if I only test before meals it's 28 a month. So yes  think your info on the code free would be great. Just the lancets worry me as the abbot thin ones fit the nexus and I quite like those. (as an aside I told the nurse that I would probably get the code free. She said someone had bought one in a couple days ago. Her remark was that it probably wasn't very accurate but would do for what I needed it for, cheeky devil.)


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## Matt Cycle (Mar 27, 2016)

Got sent this by someone I know.  Makes for very interesting reading.  Let's just say he's not a fan of the LCHF approach for anyone exercising.

http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-terrible-for-athletes-part-1/
http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-terrible-for-athletes-part-2/


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## Northerner (Mar 28, 2016)

Matt Cycle said:


> Got sent this by someone I know.  Makes for very interesting reading.  Let's just say he's not a fan of the LCHF approach for anyone exercising.
> 
> http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-terrible-for-athletes-part-1/
> http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-terrible-for-athletes-part-2/


Hmm..I thought Malcolm Kendrick was the author of The Great Cholesterol Con? In fact, a very famous running expert, Professor Tim Noakes, takes the opposite view, and promotes a LCHF diet! I think that, as always, it's finding the right balance for you as an individual.


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## Matt Cycle (Mar 28, 2016)

Northerner said:


> Hmm..I thought Malcolm Kendrick was the author of The Great Cholesterol Con? In fact, a very famous running expert, Professor Tim Noakes, takes the opposite view, and promotes a LCHF diet! I think that, as always, it's finding the right balance for you as an individual.



I completely agree.  There are too many of these 'characters' with websites - whatever 'side' they belong to.  Personally I don't care what qualifications they claim to have they are all trying to sell something, be it a book or their ideas generating advertising space on their sites.

I find it a sad indictment on modern society that they are given any credence with people slavishly following whatever they say until the next big (pun intended) idea comes along.

Whatever happened to a healthy balanced diet with plenty of exercise?  Maybe I'm just lucky but it seems to have worked for me for my whole life so far so I'm not about to change anything.


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## Rosiecarmel (Mar 28, 2016)

That article was interesting to read. A low carb diet works for me but now I'm working out at the gym and have started swimming I find carbs to be very useful! I make sure I avoid empty carbs like white bread but do find that if I eat brown rice or pasta before working out, I feel much better than just protein! That's just what works for me and everybody is different. On days I don't work out, I try to stay under 100g carbs


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