# Changing attitudes



## Bill Stewardson (Jun 26, 2017)

This I found a very good read. I voted leave, I wonder how many would have if immigration were not part of the reasoning.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-harder-borders-prosperity?CMP=share_btn_link


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## Ditto (Jun 26, 2017)

I don't think most of us knew what we were doing. I certainly didn't. You feel though that if you are given a vote, for any reason, then you should use it on principle, so I voted out and my son voted in so I knew they'd be cancelled so didn't worry too much about it. My son plays pc games and said you never leave yourself isolated. Maybe he was right!


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## Bill Stewardson (Jun 26, 2017)

Ditto said:


> I don't think most of us knew what we were doing. I certainly didn't. You feel though that if you are given a vote, for any reason, then you should use it on principle, so I voted out and my son voted in so I knew they'd be cancelled so didn't worry too much about it. My son plays pc games and said you never leave yourself isolated. Maybe he was right!



Thanks Ditto.

It does seem to me that immigration is no longer the burning issue it recently was, although  it was that which most "leavers" based their decision upon.


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## mikeyB (Jun 26, 2017)

I suspect that there may be a second referendum before all this is finished. Folk are already noticing increased food prices and the rising cost of foreign holidays as the pound sinks, and we haven't even left the EU yet. These things are just the hors d'oevres for the economic disaster ahead. And heaven forfend that strawberries will be too expensive for Wimbledon because temporary foreign labourers can't be found to pick 'em.


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## Bill Stewardson (Jun 26, 2017)

mikeyB said:


> I suspect that there may be a second referendum before all this is finished. Folk are already noticing increased food prices and the rising cost of foreign holidays as the pound sinks, and we haven't even left the EU yet. These things are just the hors d'oevres for the economic disaster ahead. And heaven forfend that strawberries will be too expensive for Wimbledon because temporary foreign labourers can't be found to pick 'em.



Maybe so,,

I'm trying to ascertain the driver behind which way people voted.


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## Ditto (Jun 26, 2017)

It was immigration for us I have to own up. I would hate to think that I'm racist, would just curl up and die at the thought, but this is such a little island and our NHS is under such pressure and they come across all those countries to get to us when there's bigger countries on the way and can only think it's due to the lure of the DWP and housing. You can't blame them really. On the other hand some of my best friends and rellies and all that so if they did another vote I'd probably vote stay in.


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## trophywench (Jun 26, 2017)

Immigration didn't really feature at all in the way I voted.  Since the early 1950s when we welcomed all the Jamaicans and after them, Indians and Pakistanis to our shores to do the filthy jobs we either weren't willing or weren't able (because so many blokes had been killed in the War) to do and families became smaller as women had discovered they liked working and earning good money instead of scrubbing front steps and nursing babies ... we've always had shedloads of immigrant workers and should all be bloody grateful that we did, frankly.

Nobody bothered saying that through a loud hailer or an the side of a bus though.  Utterly pathetic mud slinging overgrown children arguing over whose slice of cake is bigger than mine, and that was an Election Campaign???? 

Personally I believe if only we could have kicked the EU Supreme Court or whatever it is called into touch and just left the rest - a Remain majority would have won the day.  We're so embedded in the organisation by now - it's like juggling rain trying to get out and I don't envy anyone lumbered with having to do it.

Be careful what you wish for - Leave voters - you will most likely get what you deserve and then - we'll all damnwell be lumbered with it - whether we like it or not.

Any guesses which way I happened to vote ?  LOL


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## Bill Stewardson (Jun 26, 2017)

I'm glad that peeps are answering, I hope the full answers being put forward are taken in the spirit they are being put forward.

I keep hearing peeps on the news assuming the electorate understood the economics involved etc.
I think that is totally incorrect.

For me, I wanted the UK to gradually go its own way, but stay in the single market for trade purposes with recourse to the European courts when required.

Immigration mattered not at all to me and still doesn't.

Turnout for Brexit was 72.2%.  General election 68.7%.

It's quite hilarious how the media is trumpeting the "fantastic" offers being made to the EU and then seeing the utterly bemused reactions in Brussels.

We seem to a bit out of our depth.


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## mikeyB (Jun 26, 2017)

I I didn't care a jot about immigration when I voted. I just considered the insanity of leaving one of the most powerful trading blocs in the world, which opened up so many markets across the world, including China. We will not be able to recover that if we leave. I certainly overrated the intelligence of the people of Sunderland, who, with a major manufacturer, Nissan, supporting thousands of jobs, and who had located there for ease of access to Europe,  voted to leave. I've never seen turkeys voting for Christmas, or seen a town try to commit suicide before.


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## HOBIE (Jun 26, 2017)

Not one politician have said anything about British Standards & the kite mark. I don't want things from the Eu standards. ELEC wiring was Red danger now its brown & 3ph is worse. Try working in a loft with dim lts


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## Bill Stewardson (Jun 26, 2017)

Ok,,,,

It's seeming that immigration was not on the agenda according to those who have responded here. That ties in with the demise of UKIP and disappearance of the EDL.

So, am I wrong ? Does the Brit public bother about economics etc ?? 
Or, was it some sort of RULE  BRITANNIA wave of patriotism ?


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## mikeyB (Jun 26, 2017)

HOBIE said:


> Not one politician have said anything about British Standards & the kite mark. I don't want things from the Eu standards. ELEC wiring was Red danger now its brown & 3ph is worse. Try working in a loft with dim lts



That was to stop red green colour blind people electrocuting themselves. Buy yourself a torch


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## HOBIE (Jun 26, 2017)

mikeyB said:


> That was to stop red green colour blind people electrocuting themselves. Buy yourself a torch


Do you know what 3ph is ?  White Grey & Brown.  It used to be RED ,YELLOW & BLUE. Very distinctive safe colours. When you are working in a factory repairing the lights its better that you can See. Try it !


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## robert@fm (Jun 26, 2017)

Bill Stewardson said:


> It's quite hilarious how the media is trumpeting the "fantastic" offers being made to the EU and then seeing the utterly bemused reactions in Brussels.


Perhaps the "fantastic" offers are exactly that, i.e. akin to fantasy, with no basis in reality?


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## trophywench (Jun 26, 2017)

Well one thing it did do, which we aren't actually discussing - but being as I like a damn good debate with INTELLIGENT people - is make a lot more people realise how bloody daft they were to believe whichever bits of the lies, damn lies and statistics that were bandied about from all directions in the Brexit campaign.  So when Mrs Woodentop spouted all her carefully prepared bollards in the latest skirmish but refused to answer questions etc etc etc - their eyes suddenly snapped open and the realised they could quite easily see she was lying, cos she kept opening her mouth.  Also applies to others, but immensely applicable name for Herself, cos she's far too strong and stable to be likened to a cardboard cutout of a human bean,


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## Bill Stewardson (Jun 27, 2017)

trophywench said:


> Well one thing it did do, which we aren't actually discussing - but being as I like a damn good debate with INTELLIGENT people - is make a lot more people realise how bloody daft they were to believe whichever bits of the lies, damn lies and statistics that were bandied about from all directions in the Brexit campaign.  So when Mrs Woodentop spouted all her carefully prepared bollards in the latest skirmish but refused to answer questions etc etc etc - their eyes suddenly snapped open and the realised they could quite easily see she was lying, cos she kept opening her mouth.  Also applies to others, but immensely applicable name for Herself, cos she's far too strong and stable to be likened to a cardboard cutout of a human bean,



Now now,

No need to sit on the fence.


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## Copepod (Jun 27, 2017)

I'm restraining myself from.posting, attempting to maintain moderator impartiality. It's very hard! However, I really enjoy informed and intelligent debate about real life issues.


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## Bubbsie (Jun 27, 2017)

I didn't get to vote in the referendum... too ill this time last year...however I intended to vote remain...immigration was never a factor for me...my mother came here in the fifties...worked so hard...contributed...make a good life for herself...earned her place here...unbearable how many who have done similar... made their life in the UK...raised their families here... yet were then used as 'whipping boys' for the Brexit campaign...we forget the positive benefits the UK has had from immigration...nurses...teachers...doctors...those that were not too proud to do the menial jobs...others here would not even contemplate...as for the economics...how anyone believed the 'extra £350 million' quoted as being available to the NHS if we exited the EU is a mystery...a downright lie...pure fantasy...acknowledged as a falsehood by those that promoted it...only after the vote was cast... as for the single market...the customs union...what percentage of us understood what the issues were there...considered the impact leaving would have on our economy...I prefer a society based on meritocracy...the deceit employed by the Brexit campaigners from whichever side of the political spectrum was astounding...but...clearly had a major impact.


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## HOBIE (Jun 27, 2017)

I have ridden my Motorbike all over Europe. Miles & miles of brand new motorways in Spain, Ireland, Estonia, Latvia, France & Germany. I was in Estonia & could see a mirage at the end of the road it was that long & straight.  Spain is heading like France with Toll roads. ?


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## Bill Stewardson (Jun 27, 2017)

Copepod said:


> I'm restraining myself from.posting, attempting to maintain moderator impartiality. It's very hard! However, I really enjoy informed and intelligent debate about real life issues.



I don't like the idea that being a Mod prevents your expressing an honest opinion.
Its not as if your a Tory back bencher !!


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## Copepod (Jun 27, 2017)

Bill Stewardson said:


> I don't like the idea that being a Mod prevents your expressing an honest opinion.
> Its not as if your a Tory back bencher !!


Thanks for your concern, Bill, but I still think it's important to remain as impartial as possible, as members of these boards hold a range of beliefs, and I believe that I need to act for the greatest good of the greatest number.


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## Bubbsie (Jun 27, 2017)

Bill Stewardson said:


> I don't like the idea that being a Mod prevents your expressing an honest opinion.
> Its not as if your a Tory back bencher !!





Copepod said:


> I'm restraining myself from.posting, attempting to maintain moderator impartiality. It's very hard! However, I really enjoy informed and intelligent debate about real life issues.


No idea you couldn't express your opinion Copepod...seems slightly 'Big Brother' to me.


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## Copepod (Jun 27, 2017)

I've never been told to restrain from posting political opinions, but it's something that I decided to do from when I was asked to be a moderator.


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## trophywench (Jun 27, 2017)

I think you are taking it (being a moderator) all a bit too seriously mate.  The 'position' doesn't require all that much 'gravitas' - just common sense and a working knowledge of your subject.


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## Bill Stewardson (Jun 27, 2017)

Copepod said:


> Thanks for your concern, Bill, but I still think it's important to remain as impartial as possible, as members of these boards hold a range of beliefs, and I believe that I need to act for the greatest good of the greatest number.



Well well,,,

WHEN YOU GONNA START THEN ???


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## Bill Stewardson (Jun 27, 2017)

Heres a thought.

I wonder what the average French, Italian, Dutch, Greek etc person makes of all this stuff.
First we decide to distance ourselves from the European project, then we say "no deal is better than a bad deal"  followed closely by we will "seriously and generously" not victimise any of their people who are living here !!

They must have seen all the 350 million a week for the NHS nonsense and the like in the world news. Then the MP who said it being made Home Sec.

Bet they think the UK is a castle full of rascals.


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## Steff (Jun 27, 2017)

Bill Stewardson said:


> loony bin.


Hate that term


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## Bubbsie (Jun 27, 2017)

trophywench said:


> I think you are taking it (being a moderator) all a bit too seriously mate.  The 'position' doesn't require all that much 'gravitas' - just common sense and a working knowledge of your subject.


I'm amazed at this response...believe those that give their time freely...in what possibly seems like a thankless task at times...would be dismissed so cursorily...harsh indeed!...and unnecessary.


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## Bill Stewardson (Jun 27, 2017)

Steff said:


> Hate that term



Not sure which term Steff.

I write in good faith and mean to offend no one.

Sorry if I have.


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## Steff (Jun 27, 2017)

Bill Stewardson said:


> Not sure which term Steff.
> 
> I write in good faith and mean to offend no one.
> 
> Sorry if I have.


I quoted the term. it's cool your free to type as you please Bill just was saying that term erks me


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## Bill Stewardson (Jun 27, 2017)

Steff said:


> I quoted the term. it's cool your free to type as you please Bill just was saying that term erks me



Changed it,,, 

Hope the castle police don't mind.


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## Steff (Jun 27, 2017)

Bill Stewardson said:


> Changed it,,,
> 
> Hope the castle police don't mind.


You don't wish to offend but you always have to get that cheeky little remark in


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## mikeyB (Jun 29, 2017)

Bill Stewardson said:


> Changed it,,,
> 
> Hope the castle police don't mind.


I'm with Steff, here, Bill. We have members currently contributing who have psychiatric problems sufficiently bad to require admission. I realise no offence was intended, but you can imagine how they might feel to know they have been in the "loony bin", and there's no need to be snippy about changing it.


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## Bill Stewardson (Jun 29, 2017)

mikeyB said:


> I'm with Steff, here, Bill. We have members currently contributing who have psychiatric problems sufficiently bad to require admission. I realise no offence was intended, but you can imagine how they might feel to know they have been in the "loony bin", and there's no need to be snippy about changing it.



Any excuse to have a snipe yourself Mike ?

I know nothing about people's histories in this echo chamber, nor do I think it is fair to assume that I write in anything but good faith.
Steff made a point, I acted on it immediately, the comment left was intended to be humorous, obviously that was my mistake.


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## Bubbsie (Jun 29, 2017)

mikeyB said:


> I'm with Steff, here, Bill. We have members currently contributing who have psychiatric problems sufficiently bad to require admission. I realise no offence was intended, but you can imagine how they might feel to know they have been in the "loony bin", and there's no need to be snippy about changing it.


Coming from you...that made me laugh!


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## Bill Stewardson (Jun 29, 2017)

While this unsavoury and unnecessary point has been raised, I would prefer not to be made aware of anyone's medical history. In this way I will only be able to treat EVERYONE in the same way, i.e. there will be no intended discrimination from me at all.
 If/when I inadvertently offend anyone and they point it out to me I will act reasonably and do what I see to be as the correct thing.
My humourus comments are intended to be entirely that which I also see as completely reasonable.

Everything has to be reasonable.


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## Steff (Jun 29, 2017)

I wont be making anyone aware of my medical history unless I wish to do so, So dont panic Bill I wont be messaging you with my long list of woes


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## trophywench (Jun 29, 2017)

Well Bill - have to say mental health is one very touchy subject generally these days - and we do have absolutely no idea who we may offend by saying something which we ourselves regard as perfectly innocent remarks.  God knows - I've upset enough people on here myself over the years with things I had absolutely no idea anyone on earth could possibly take exception to! - as quite a number of people on here will no doubt recall from time to time LOL

Best to just say, Oh dear - sorry! and just change it - without trying to add anything that you or I think is amusing.  They might not, and think you are just rubbing whatever it is, in.  We absolutely don't all have the same SOH !!


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## Bill Stewardson (Jun 29, 2017)

trophywench said:


> Well Bill - have to say mental health is one very touchy subject generally these days - and we do have absolutely no idea who we may offend by saying something which we ourselves regard as perfectly innocent remarks.  God knows - I've upset enough people on here myself over the years with things I had absolutely no idea anyone on earth could possibly take exception to! - as quite a number of people on here will no doubt recall from time to time LOL
> 
> Best to just say, Oh dear - sorry! and just change it - without trying to add anything that you or I think is amusing.  They might not, and think you are just rubbing whatever it is, in.  We absolutely don't all have the same SOH !!



I will decide what I say and how I say it.

I will carry on as I always have.


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## Steff (Jun 29, 2017)

Bill Stewardson said:


> I will decide what I say and how I say it.
> 
> I will carry on as I always have.


Maybe the title of the thread  reflects what you should do change your attitude .


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## Bill Stewardson (Jun 29, 2017)

Maybe it doesn't.

Your go.


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## Steff (Jun 29, 2017)

Bill Stewardson said:


> Maybe it doesn't.
> 
> Your go.


For an older gentleman your a tad childish


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## Bubbsie (Jun 30, 2017)

Come on I think everyone has made their views clear here...valid points on both sides...we all want to be (considered) reasonable...surely this has gone as far as it needs to...as far as it should...can we leave it there?


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## Copepod (Jun 30, 2017)

Clear, reasoned, considerate debate, please.
Not cheap shots and hypersensitivity. For example, I don't expect people to know that I find ignorance of lives of marine invertebrates very offensive  Smiley face indicates irony, by the way.


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## Steff (Jun 30, 2017)

Sweet as far as I'm concerned.just don't expect me to stay quiet about things that matter to me


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