# Vikings, Yorkshire and language



## Monica (Aug 8, 2012)

Taking this away from the Selby thread 

As we already know the vikings invaded Yorkshire. And some of words are derived from there.
I can't actually think of many
Bairns (children) comes from b?rn
Kirk is church, comes from kirke

All those gates aren't actually gates. It comes from the danish "gade" which means street, alleyway. When we moved here I always wondered why we had so many "gates" as street names when there were none.

I've just been looking online to find some more words
addle, cleg, fell,lop


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## Northerner (Aug 8, 2012)

We always used to talk about laiking out instead of playing out  I think it's old Norse.


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## Monica (Aug 8, 2012)

Yes, I can see that. Lege (pronounce lier )is danish for playing.
You know LEGO, I'm sure. Well, that's made out of 2 words - lege and godt
play and well/good

I wonder if that's similar to larking about?
I've also learnt "nithered" as being freezing. I'll have to see how that goes with the vikings


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## Monica (Aug 8, 2012)

hmm, I've just found that "nithered" comes from Durham


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## Northerner (Aug 8, 2012)

We used to say 'nesh' for freezing/shivering


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## Monica (Aug 8, 2012)

Never heard that one before 

But I understand now why we write Knife, although I still don't understand why we don't pronounce the K. Knife in danish is Kniv and they do pronounce the K , but the V isn't pronounced very strongly, lol. Languages are complicated


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## Northerner (Aug 8, 2012)

Monica said:


> Never heard that one before
> 
> But I understand now why we write Knife, although I still don't understand why we don't pronounce the K. Knife in danish is Kniv and they do pronounce the K , but the V isn't pronounced very strongly, lol. Languages are complicated



Yes, they're all pretty much related, except Finnish, Hungarian and Basque!


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## Monica (Aug 8, 2012)

Yes, I found learning English much easier than French. Having learnt German and Danish first, it made English quite easy, despite all the confusing words that are spelt differently and then pronounced the same. Or the ones that are spelt nearly the same, but pronounced differently 

I have to admit though I only speak Danish (not very well). I can read Danish, but I'd probably not pronounce the words correctly. I can't write Danish, as I was never taught. When my cousins write something on FB, I try to decipher it first before I use Bing translate, especially as Bing translate is rubbish.


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 8, 2012)

Monica said:


> Taking this away from the Selby thread
> 
> As we already know the vikings invaded Yorkshire. And some of words are derived from there.
> I can't actually think of many
> addle, cleg, fell,lop



the 300 most common everyday words in English today come from Danish/ Old Norse - egg, sky, mother, father, daughter etc

The Danes settled in the Danelaw ( eastern and Northern England). As London grew in the medieval period, it was heavily populated by people from Eastern England who brought all their Norse/Danish-derived  vocabulary into London and into London English.


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## Vicsetter (Aug 8, 2012)

mcdonagh47 said:


> the 300 most common everyday words in English today come from Danish/ Old Norse - egg, sky, mother, father, daughter etc
> 
> The Danes settled in the Danelaw ( eastern and Northern England). As London grew in the medieval period, it was heavily populated by people from Eastern England who brought all their Danish-derived  vocabulary into London and into London English.



Not too mention their pastries


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 8, 2012)

Vicsetter said:


> Not too mention their pastries



LOL - wouldn't you just know it ! You'd get Nil points on QI.
Danish pastries are not Danish in origin - they are from Vienna !
In Denmark they are called "weinerbrod"


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 8, 2012)

Monica said:


> Taking this away from the Selby thread
> 
> As we already know the vikings invaded Yorkshire. And some of words are derived from there.
> I've just been looking online to find some more words
> addle, cleg, fell,lop



Try this lot ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Old_Norse_origin


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## trophywench (Aug 9, 2012)

The French call such things Viennoiserie, which goes along with that Vic.
You'll find the croissants, chocolatines and the pains aux raisins in the Viennoisierie section at the supermrche.

But you can't deny their bacon is good, surely?  LOL

We used to say nesh too, and I had a friend from Derby who was also nesh, just like me.

Don't some of the 'Gates' also refer to - well, gates!  in walled cities too.? Isn't there a Micklegate in Derby?  and a Deansgate in Northampton?


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## robert@fm (Aug 9, 2012)

mcdonagh47 said:


> Danish pastries are not Danish in origin - they are from Vienna !
> In Denmark they are called "weinerbrod"



This means nothing to me. 

(Well, somebody had to say it... [ducks and runs])


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 9, 2012)

robert@fm said:


> This means nothing to me



well don't use the word "this" if it means nothing to you


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## Copepod (Aug 9, 2012)

One day, I'll find out if Tyneside words netty (toilet) and stotty (shape of bread) have norse origins. 

Trophywench - Danish bacon does taste good, but there's some evidence that British raised pigs have happier lives, plus fewer food miles / kilometers.


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## Northerner (Aug 9, 2012)

Copepod said:


> Trophywench - Danish bacon does taste good, but there's some evidence that British raised pigs have happier lives, plus fewer food miles / kilometers.



I believe the dominant pig raised here is the Norwegian landrace - so yet another 'Viking' incursion!


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## Copepod (Aug 9, 2012)

Northerner said:


> I believe the dominant pig raised here is the Norwegian landrace - so yet another 'Viking' incursion!




The first landrace pigs were imported from Sweden to Britain in 1949. Personally, I prefer meeting and eating free range Tamworth Gilts and Gloucester Old Spots (revealing my Midland origins).


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## trophywench (Aug 9, 2012)

Oh Copepod, those lovely long ginger eyelashes!  And spotty babies!  My best friend's next door neighbour (a Gentleman Farmer ...) had a prize winning herd of GOS, always got emselves on telly when the Royal Show was on; you know those 'riot shields' they use to shove the piggies about in the show ring? - well his had 'Herbert C Styles  - Provender Mills, Bewdley' emblazoned on them - free advertising LOL

When you went to their house as you walked along the hall, instead of ancestral portraits on the wall they had rows of photographs of all the prize-winning sows with names a la 'Empress of Blandings' style !  So funny! 

.... and Delicious!


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 9, 2012)

Copepod said:


> The first landrace pigs were imported from Sweden to Britain in 1949. Personally, I prefer meeting and eating free range Tamworth Gilts and Gloucester Old Spots (revealing my Midland origins).



Whatever happened to the "Tamworth Two" who made a dash for freedom from the abattoir ?

ah ... here they are .... they lived happily ever after thanks to the Daily Mail ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamworth_Two


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## Copepod (Aug 9, 2012)

Exactly, Trophywench

Acton Scott Farm Museum had Tamworth Gilts (probably still has), with a pan scrubber left on wall of sty, so visitors could scratch mother pigs' backs. 

Gloucester Old Spots are spotty, of course, and have lovely floppy ears over their eyes. 

Also, great seeing outdoor Landrace pigs from some roads and, once, during orienteering race in East Anglia.


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## Monica (Aug 9, 2012)

mcdonagh47 said:


> LOL - wouldn't you just know it ! You'd get Nil points on QI.
> Danish pastries are not Danish in origin - they are from Vienna !
> In Denmark they are called "weinerbrod"



LOL, I loooove "wienerbr?d". But isn't it funny about foods, we don't have "swiss rolls", they're just called roulade. And when I first came to London, I saw "swiss buns" in the bakery (iced buns). Well, I have never seen anything like that in any bakery in Switzerland. Also, the frankfurters are called Wienerli (small viennese) in Switzerland


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## Monica (Aug 9, 2012)

mcdonagh47 said:


> the 300 most common everyday words in English today come from Danish/ Old Norse - egg, sky, mother, father, daughter etc



egg - ?g - pronounce egg (lol)
sky - himmlen, but sky is cloud
mother - mor - pronounce more
father - far - pronounce fahr
daughter - datter- pronounce that there
son - s?n- don't know how to explain the pronounciation. The ? is like an o with umlaut (?) which doesn't exist in english. Mike can't hear the difference between an o and an ? when I say words with them in.

I'm still wondering about the not so common words that are still used in Yorkshire slang


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 9, 2012)

Monica said:


> LOL, I loooove "wienerbr?d". But isn't it funny about foods, we don't have "swiss rolls", they're just called roulade. And when I first came to London, I saw "swiss buns" in the bakery (iced buns). Well, I have never seen anything like that in any bakery in Switzerland. Also, the frankfurters are called Wienerli (small viennese) in Switzerland



there is the famous story of JFK's visit to West Berlin in the early 1960s atbthe height of the Cold War ; he wanted to show his solidarity with them.
He said go the crowd "Ich bin ein Berliner". I am a Berliner.
The German crowd roared with laughter and applause. A "berliner" is a Jam Doughnut in GErmany.


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## Vicsetter (Aug 9, 2012)

Monica said:


> egg - ?g - pronounce egg (lol)
> sky - himmlen, but sky is cloud
> mother - mor - pronounce more
> father - far - pronounce fahr
> ...



Did the vikings invade germany, or did the german words migrate to denmark and scandanavia, as most of those words are pretty similar to the german (got in himmel for instance)

Some words are fairly common (probably because of Latin roots), the one I like is window, Fenster, Fenestre, Fenetre, Finestra and in english you get fenistration.  Funilly enough in Haitian Creole its fen?t.  Does  	
f?nstret in Swedish count as similar?
Why is Finnish so different?


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## robert@fm (Aug 9, 2012)

Monica said:


> sky - himmlen, but sky is cloud



I think "himmel" in German is "heaven".



> son - s?n- don't know how to explain the pronounciation. The ? is like an o with umlaut (?) which doesn't exist in english. Mike can't hear the difference between an o and an ? when I say words with them in.



From what I've heard, German ?/oe is roughly the same as English "ur".  "Murder" in English is (so I'm told) "m?rder" in German -- same pronunciation and meaning, different spelling. 



mcdonagh47 said:


> there is the famous story of JFK's visit to West Berlin in the early 1960s atbthe height of the Cold War ; he wanted to show his solidarity with them.
> He said go the crowd "Ich bin ein Berliner". I am a Berliner.
> The German crowd roared with laughter and applause. A "berliner" is a Jam Doughnut in GErmany.



That's an urban myth; in German-speaking countries it's the custom to name snack foods after the cities with which they're associated, hence "hamburgers" from Hamburg (ham is a jiont, not a meat in itself, and anyway pork patties are called "baconburgers"), and hot dogs are called "frankfurters" or "wieners" because both Frankfurt and Vienna lay claim to them.  Thus a "berliner" could be a person/thing from Berlin, *or* specifically a jam doughnut; but it would take a very dumb German to be unable to tell from the context which was meant.


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## Northerner (Aug 9, 2012)

Vicsetter said:


> Why is Finnish so different?



Most European languages have a common root in Indo-European, originally Sanskrit. Finnish and Hungarian are very different, being part of a group of languages called Finno-Ugrian. Basque is also different. Then you have Germanic languages, Slavonic, Romance etc. Having learned Russian, I was able to recognise quite a lot of Bulgarian, Serbian, Czech, Polish etc. Fascinating stuff!

I can remember once buying a Navajo-English dictionary from Waterstone's in Sheffield. The sales assistant called over to another and said 'See, I told you _someone_ would buy it!


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## Monica (Aug 9, 2012)

robert@fm said:


> I think "himmel" in German is "heaven".
> 
> Yes, it is heaven, but also sky
> 
> ...



I've heard this story about the Berliner too. We Swiss call the jam doughnuts Berliner. But you're quite right, a person born and bred in Berlin is a Berliner/Berlinerin, as much as I am a Luzernerin (female version of Luzerner).


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## Monica (Aug 9, 2012)

Vicsetter said:


> Did the vikings invade germany, or did the german words migrate to denmark and scandanavia, as most of those words are pretty similar to the german (got in himmel for instance)



I'd love to know the answer to that, probably german speaking spread out to skandinavia. Swiss-german is not so different to german. That's why I find learning english much easier than learning a latin language.
House - hus (hoos as in baloon) - haus - hus (same as danish)
english - danish - german - swiss-german (the way I would spell it if there was a written swiss-german)
We actually learn what we call "high german" at school.


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## robert@fm (Aug 10, 2012)

On the emaildiscussions.com board, one representative of Runbox (then Norway's leading email service) once remarked that Swedes and Norwegians can more or less understand each other, but Finnish is a radically different language.


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## Northerner (Aug 10, 2012)

I would highly recommend The Unfolding Of Language to anyone interested in how languages developed and are related - I couldn't put it down!


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## Monica (Aug 10, 2012)

robert@fm said:


> On the emaildiscussions.com board, one representative of Runbox (then Norway's leading email service) once remarked that Swedes and Norwegians can more or less understand each other, but Finnish is a radically different language.



You can include the Danes in that too, Robert 

BBC2  showed a danish/swedish production not so long ago, called "the Bridge". It was a crime [story], which happened on the bridge from Denmark to Sweden. The body was laid out half on danish soil and half on swedish soil. So the danish and the swedish police had to solve the crime together. They all spoke in their own language.

I'm not sure, but I think that norwegian is closer to danish than it is to swedish.


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## Monica (Aug 10, 2012)

Northerner said:


> I would highly recommend The Unfolding Of Language to anyone interested in how languages developed and are related - I couldn't put it down!



Oh I might get that!!!!


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## Monica (Aug 10, 2012)

I love talking about languages

Rakastan puhua kielill? - finnish

Jeg elsker at snakke om sprog - danish

Jeg elsker ? snakke om spr?k - norwegian

Jag ?lskar att prata om spr?k - swedish

Ich liebe Sprachen sprechen - german (but I wouldn't say it like that )

I used google translate for this, which I know doesn't always work out right. The german certainly doesn't seem right. I'd say : Ich liebe es, ?ber Sprachen zu sprechen

So you can see the similarities between the skandinavian languages 

Sorry for my waffling on......


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 10, 2012)

Monica said:


> You can include the Danes in that too, Robert
> 
> BBC2  showed a danish/swedish production not so long ago, called "the Bridge". It was a crime [story], which happened on the bridge from Denmark to Sweden. The body was laid out half on danish soil and half on swedish soil. So the danish and the swedish police had to solve the crime together. They all spoke in their own language.
> 
> I'm not sure, but I think that norwegian is closer to danish than it is to swedish.



my son worked in Malmo last year and he watched the Bridge, saying look that's my hotel or that's the street I walk down to work etc. He worked in Oslo for a year before that and he says everyone speaks perfect English at every level.

Are you watching Borgen ? That's really good.


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## Monica (Aug 10, 2012)

mcdonagh47 said:


> my son worked in Malmo last year and he watched the Bridge, saying look that's my hotel or that's the street I walk down to work etc. He worked in Oslo for a year before that and he says everyone speaks perfect English at every level.
> 
> Are you watching Borgen ? That's really good.



No, I missed the first episode and I couldn't find it on iPlayer  I tried watching it from the 2nd episode, but I didn't have a clue what was going on.
 I did watch "the killing" though- the original danish one on BBC4, not the american version on 5 (or was it on channel 4?)

Yes, they speak English in Denmark, because all the english spoken programmes on TV are subtitled, not dubbed. I don't know at what age they learn English at school though, I'd have to ask my cousin.

I remember they even subtitle the swedish children's programmes, when shown on danish TV. But they also receive the swedish and norwegian TV. I grew up with german, austrian, italian and french channels. Now my dad has satellite TV, he also gets some BBC and ITV channels.


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## Vicsetter (Aug 10, 2012)

Monica said:


> I love talking about languages
> 
> Rakastan puhua kielill? - finnish
> 
> ...



When we were doing our menus in different languages we used Babel Fish (now Bing translate) with interesting results:

Scrambled egg translated to confused egg
Poached egg translated to illegally hunted egg


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## Northerner (Aug 10, 2012)

Vicsetter said:


> When we were doing our menus in different languages we used Babel Fish (now Bing translate) with interesting results:
> 
> Scrambled egg translated to confused egg
> Poached egg translated to illegally hunted egg



Automatic translation is extremely difficult. I've been into it since I got my ZX81 (in 1981!) - did a course in computational linguistics the same year, which really brought it home how complex language constructs can be.

I used to have a speech synthesiser for my ZX Spectrum which worked by concatenating phonemes - so I got it to speak in a Yorkshire accent! (-ish! )


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 10, 2012)

Monica said:


> No, I missed the first episode and I couldn't find it on iPlayer  I tried watching it from the 2nd episode, but I didn't have a clue what was going on.
> .



The latest episode of Borgen is here ... wish we had a Prime Minister like Birgitte ! ....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01bs3t9/Borgen_Series_1_Divide_and_Rule/


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## Vicsetter (Aug 10, 2012)

Northerner said:


> Automatic translation is extremely difficult. I've been into it since I got my ZX81 (in 1981!) - did a course in computational linguistics the same year, which really brought it home how complex language constructs can be.
> 
> I used to have a speech synthesiser for my ZX Spectrum which worked by concatenating phonemes - so I got it to speak in a Yorkshire accent! (-ish! )



I've got a Scottish Lass on my SatNav.  Keep waiting for her to say ' keep right on to the end of the road'


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## robert@fm (Aug 10, 2012)

Vicsetter said:


> When we were doing our menus in different languages we used Babel Fish (now Bing translate) with interesting results:
> 
> Scrambled egg translated to confused egg
> Poached egg translated to illegally hunted egg



Machine translation can be great fun, due to the AYB Effect (named after the old "all your base are belong to us" meme of about 10 years ago).  On one forum I was on, people used to have fun around Christmas translating various things (especially Christmas songs) to other languages and back.   This being a family forum, I'll leave you to imagine how "don we now our gay apparel" came back.


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## trophywench (Aug 10, 2012)

ROFLMAO Robert, yes it's amazing how language has changed over the years!

We once belonged to a club where people were always called by their Christian names, rather than Mr Miss etc.  Obviously you got people with the same Christian name, so we had eg  'Rusharound' Ray and 'Brickie' Ray.  Usually referred to - but not addressed - as just R or B.  However years since when RR had joined because he was such a bubbly chap with a grin never missing, his original nickname WAS 'Gay Ray'.  At some stage before we joined in 1983, he asked for it to be changed ! and because he was always hareing about - and forever late for whatever it was - Rusharound was suggested.


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## Monica (Aug 13, 2012)

That reminds me of the crepe menu in France last year! It was supposed to be stewed apple, but it was "pi**ed" apple instead


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