# NHS has no right to tell pregnant women not to smoke - they already know the risks



## Northerner (Dec 11, 2016)

The seven million smokers who still puff away know full well the risks they are running.

Giving up – or better still, never starting – is the best way to avoid an early death.

Women also know, because they have been told often enough, that if they light up while pregnantthey increase their chances of miscarriage, stillbirth and complications.

That said, we still live in a free country. Smoking is now a restricted activity, but not an illegal one. Those who choose to use tobacco have every right to do so.

And it is that which makes Duncan Selbie’s letter to NHS Trust bosses at best controversial and at worst outrageous.

The chief executive of Public Health England says hospitals should give mums-to-be carbon monoxide tests to check whether they are inhaling the evil weed.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-no-right-tell-pregnant-9434436


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## trophywench (Dec 11, 2016)

LOL at the bit about refusing motorbikers treatment  - well it's a bugger isn't it?  It's become so much safer these days - there's a lack of transplant organs !

Mind you I have been told they won't fit arterial stents now to smokers - I only presume because they consider it a waste of their resources on the assumption you'll just need another one if they do it and you carry on ingesting the weed, but I don't know if that's true.  I mean if you turned up nearly dead anyway from a heart artery blockage - would they still refuse?  Plus if it's just for legs - doesn't that infer they'd rather your leg died and they'd then amputate it - than do the stent and try and save it, in the hope that it having got that bad, you might just pack it in?  After all if eg I packed up right now and in another 6 months my currently affected leg needs it - or my heart does instead - would they just not bother anyway cos of all the 50 previous years damage?

Surely it's asking doctors to make value judgments - which I'm bloody sure the Hippocratic Oath doesn't ask em to do - or is this twat also going to introduce the Hypocrytic one instead?


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## Amigo (Dec 11, 2016)

I'm not entirely sure what he intends to do if the test proves positive. Will the hospital refuse to deliver the baby? Maybe they'll phone Social Services and have them put on the 'At risk register'. 
Then there should be a register for the potential patients they apply the breathalyser to. Oh and an 'Obesity Alert register'. But why stop there. Maybe this genius will suggest IQ and aptitude tests in the ante-natal clinics 

Truth is most people wouldn't make it past A&E if the moral and judgement police assess them for eligibility!


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## mikeyB (Dec 11, 2016)

It's a matter of personal choice how people live their lives. It is not for doctors to force people into healthy options. Anybody who doesn't know smoking is bad for you must have  been living in a cave for the last 50 years. I would never refuse treatment to a smoker, or a drug user, or a prostitute, or even a Tory. Everybody has to get through life the best they can, but that doesn't mean they have to live as long as possible. Just think of the Pensions saved by these unhealthy folk. Heroes, every one.


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## trophywench (Dec 11, 2016)

What you say about smoking is true of course and sorry! - though my father often enquired of me when I was young whether I'd been born in a barn - cave dwelling wouldn't ever be my idea of fun - I do enjoy camping but there again campsites have had 'facilities' for years and if the weather's that awful you can either throw it all back in the car and come home or if abroad  and it's X time until the return ferry - well throw a bankcard at that and move into an hotel!  LOL

Ah - but I now get extra Pension for the same investment, by having such an impaired life Mikey! - so on the basis I absolutely refuse to drop dead any time soon, I got the better end of that deal.  Pity it was only a bit and wasn't all my Pension money though .....  LOL

There is obviously one person mainly to blame for my arteries having hardened and I do, but there again both husbands also smoked, as did my dad and most of my friends and colleagues - so actually I could have been virtuous and not got hooked on the weed at all - and still have the effects of the passive smoking now, couldn't I?

Good grief - our family GP during my formative years until I was about 17, routinely chain smoked Players untipped during consultations - he'd leave it on the edge of his very large cut glass ashtray (that my mother coveted so much) when he examined you or did your polio jabs, etc.  Same brand as my dad, except Dad never chain smoked - there again he never earned as much as Dr  Allen either!


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## HOBIE (Dec 11, 2016)

I would not put my child in danger !   I was once in hospital & the man in the bed next to me had both legs amputated through smoking


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## mikeyB (Dec 11, 2016)

My paternal grandad smoked Players Senior Service untipped. He still smoked after one leg went into the hospital incinerator, and he still smoked after the other went the same way. I only remember  him in a wheelchair. He had snow white hair, with a yellow streak at the front which was from nicotine and tar staining, and still he smoked. It was the slowest suicide in history, took him 60 years of smoking.


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## trophywench (Dec 12, 2016)

Senior Service weren't Players - they were made by Gallaghers, Mike - but the untipped were in a packet with navy blue writing same as Players - but without the pic of a sailor LOL - we used to smoke SS tipped, that packet was maroon writing !  (Player's tipped was pale blue)  All 'flat' packets, they hadn't invented flip tops at that stage and when they did only new ones like Gold Leaf were in em!

And Hobie - our dads weren't putting us in danger as far as they or we were concerned since the likes of us most certainly didn't know they might be!  Anyone that went on a bus (or worked on one) - or a train - or went in a pub, café, restaurant - ALL ingested ciggie smoke which is actually probably still a lot healthier to breathe in than some of the foul crap that came out of the factory chimneys that surrounded us 24/7 plus we only lived half a mile away from Midland Tar Distillers (friend's dad drove a Formaldehyde tanker, and we loved getting a lift back to school after lunch in the cab!) and I daresay when the place burnt down when I was about 12 (30 March 1962 LOL) there was probably the odd bit of crap released into the air over the new council estate across the road too LOL

I breathed it ALL in, cos I had to!


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## Sally71 (Dec 12, 2016)

It's a tricky one isn't it - everyone is free to make their own choices, and not all of them will be good, none of us are perfect!  I have never smoked, and can't see why anyone would want to start; I do understand however, that it's a very difficult thing to give up once you have started!  So anyone out there trying to quit, you have my sympathy (not sure that's quite the right word... )
I gave up alcohol as soon as I found out I was pregnant, and most of the time didn't find that too hard, there were a handful of times when I'd have killed for a Bacardi and coke, but I managed to resist because my daughter was very, very, very badly wanted and I didn't want to do anything which had even the tiniest risk of causing her harm!  So I'd like to think that if I was a smoker that I'd have made the effort to give that up too, for her sake if not mine.  I guess you don't know what you'd do until you are in that situation though, And as trophywench says, for those of us who live in towns and cities, the air isn't always as clean as we'd like anyway 

I once watched a programme about women who smoked during pregnancy.  Most of them were trying to give up, some more successfully than others; one though quite happily carried on smoking and made no effort at all to give up, because she said it would make her baby's lungs stronger!   So whilst people these days should be aware of the dangers of smoking, it might not be quite true to say that everyone does...


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## grovesy (Dec 12, 2016)

No and some believe it makes their babies smaller they will be easier to deliver them.


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## ChrisSamsDad (Dec 12, 2016)

Well, if it were just the mother that's affected that would be one thing - but this is affecting other lives - the baby, the people around her, the health care system, society as a whole. There's not really any excuse for smoking now that you can vape more cheaply and safely.

We feel quite justified as a society in telling other kinds of drug addicts to stop - in fact, to the point of locking them up, fining them and ruining their lives even more by giving them a criminal record. If a mother was taking heroin, we'd go so far as to lock her up and take her baby away when it's born. What's different about nicotine addicts?

Well, In fact, the baby born to to a heroin addicted mother would be healthy*, apart from being born addicted to heroin and would have to go through withdrawal. The child born to a smoker or in fact a drinker, would have severe permanent developmental problems and suffer their entire lives from it.

* actually just fact checked my belief about heroin-mothers and they're not 'perfectly' healthy - they are born smaller and have other issues, but not as bad as drinkers and smokers.


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## grovesy (Dec 12, 2016)

ChrisSamsDad said:


> Well, if it were just the mother that's affected that would be one thing - but this is affecting other lives - the baby, the people around her, the health care system, society as a whole. There's not really any excuse for smoking now that you can vape more cheaply and safely.
> 
> We feel quite justified as a society in telling other kinds of drug addicts to stop - in fact, to the point of locking them up, fining them and ruining their lives even more by giving them a criminal record. If a mother was taking heroin, we'd go so far as to lock her up and take her baby away when it's born. What's different about nicotine addicts?
> 
> ...


There is a condition known as Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, and it can cause damage to the children.


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## Northerner (Dec 12, 2016)

ChrisSamsDad said:


> The child born to a smoker or in fact a drinker, would have severe permanent developmental problems and suffer their entire lives from it


I think that is rather oversimplified, perhaps 'may' rather than 'would'. My Dad drank and smoked heavily throughout his life, I don't feel I've suffered because of it - most of his generation were smokers, it was the norm in society. All previous generations of my family on the male side were heavy drinkers, and probably smokers too.


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## Amigo (Dec 12, 2016)

Northerner said:


> I think that is rather oversimplified, perhaps 'may' rather than 'would'. My Dad drank and smoked heavily throughout his life, I don't feel I've suffered because of it - most of his generation were smokers, it was the norm in society. All previous generations of my family on the male side were heavy drinkers, and probably smokers too.



My mother was from the generation where people smoked and the dangers were badly understood and warnings non existent. In fact there were adverts suggesting smoking helped lung function! Seems unbelievable now. As a result my mother smoked heavily whilst pregnant with both me and my siblings. I'm not aware of any developmental deficients in any of us but I do suspect it took its toll in terms of long term health. She's lived to a very good age and my father who never smoked, died young.


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## ChrisSamsDad (Dec 12, 2016)

Northerner said:


> I think that is rather oversimplified, perhaps 'may' rather than 'would'. My Dad drank and smoked heavily throughout his life, I don't feel I've suffered because of it - most of his generation were smokers, it was the norm in society. All previous generations of my family on the male side were heavy drinkers, and probably smokers too.


When I say 'born to....' I was imaging that it was unambiguously referring to the mother. Clearly I was wrong unless you're from a very strange family.


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## Amigo (Dec 12, 2016)

Clearly it still should be 'may' and not 'would' Chris. I'd imagine a fair number of members on here had mothers who smoked during pregnancy. I know some of us are a bit odd but not permanently developmentally delayed!


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## HOBIE (Dec 12, 2016)

I used to work at Cigarette components in South Shields. They made filter tips for tabs. They had a fantastic machine to test the filters. A 2ft square glass cabinet about 20ft long testing at leased 300 tabs at a time.  Little puffs of smoke coming through each tab. A brilliant machine but it would put you off if you seen it


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## ChrisSamsDad (Dec 12, 2016)

Amigo said:


> Clearly it still should be 'may' and not 'would' Chris. I'd imagine a fair number of members on here had mothers who smoked during pregnancy. I know some of us are a bit odd but not permanently developmentally delayed!


Yes, you're quite right, I stand corrected, some are lucky - but I still think it's fair to assume it's a strong possibility, given the evidence and it's an indefensible thing to do.


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## ChrisSamsDad (Dec 12, 2016)

Amigo said:


> My mother was from the generation where people smoked and the dangers were badly understood and warnings non existent. In fact there were adverts suggesting smoking helped lung function! Seems unbelievable now. As a result my mother smoked heavily whilst pregnant with both me and my siblings. I'm not aware of any developmental deficients in any of us but I do suspect it took its toll in terms of long term health. She's lived to a very good age and my father who never smoked, died young.


Who knows how much more of a genius and superhero you might have been? Also, remember you're the ones who survived to tell the tale. I think there's no controversy remaining that smoking is pretty poor for your own health and in the case of pregnant woman, the child she's carrying is there?


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## Amigo (Dec 12, 2016)

ChrisSamsDad said:


> Who knows how much more of a genius and superhero you might have been? Also, remember you're the ones who survived to tell the tale. I think there's no controversy remaining that smoking is pretty poor for your own health and in the case of pregnant woman, the child she's carrying is there?



Oh the evidence against pregnant women smoking is irrefutable Chris. I don't think anyone doubts that now but obviously it was less well understood back in the day. Nevertheless it's an addiction and as such can't simply be legislated against. Women need education, understanding and support to stop not draconian threats that no system can actually enforce. We have to accept that some parents are flawed for a host of reasons and some long after the child is born. That's a sad fact of life.

As for me...well my mother may have smoked but she was and is the very best mum anyone could have asked for and that compensates for a habit she didn't even realise was hazardous way back then.


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## AlisonM (Dec 12, 2016)

My maternal gran was a heavy smoker, despite Asthma and Emphysema she continued smoking, not cigarettes but cigarillos. It killed her in the end, but it took 60 years. My dad's half-sister went the same way, though in her case it was repeated strokes and cancer that got her. Neither one would ever stop smoking and both claimed it as their 'only' vice.


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## Lilian (Dec 12, 2016)

I did not start smoking until I was 18, but soon became a very heavy smoker.  However, as soon as I became pregnant I gave it up and have not smoked since.    I am now medically classed as a non smoker,  as opposed to a smoker who has given up.    I wont say I haven't fancied one now and again over the years but I have managed to resist.    Wish I could say that about chocolate


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## mikeyB (Dec 13, 2016)

Quite right Amigo, we can't blame our parents for smoking, and taking a couple of points off our IQs. Okay, I might have gone to Cambridge instead of St Andrews, but then I would have ended up homosexual and all those nurses I left with smiles on their faces would be that little bit more deprived of life's joys. I like the way life has panned out, but I could have done without the diabetes gene, and the UC gene (me and big bro got that one). I wouldn't blame my lovely parents for anything.


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## trophywench (Dec 13, 2016)

Exactly Mike - nor me - I mean we wouldn't even be having this discussion, now, would we?  LOL


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## mikeyB (Dec 13, 2016)

Indeed, and who, after all, would want to miss all this?


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