# Butter nonsense: the rise of the cholesterol deniers



## Matt Cycle

Butter is back. Saturated fat is good for you. Cholesterol is not the cause of heart disease. Claims along these lines keep finding their way into newspapers and mainstream websites – even though they contradict decades of medical advice. There is a battle going on for our hearts and minds.

According to a small group of dissident scientists, whose work usually first appears in minor medical journals, by far the greatest threat to our hearts and vascular systems comes from sugar, while saturated fat has been wrongly demonised. And because cholesterol levels don’t matter, they argue, we don’t need the statins that millions have been prescribed to lower them. A high-fat diet is the secret to a healthy life, they say. Enjoy your butter and other animal fats. Cheese is great. Meat is back on the menu.

This is more than bad science, according to leading scientists and medical authorities. It will cost lives. “Encouraging people to eat more saturated fat is dangerous and irresponsible,” is a typical verdict, in this case from Prof Louis Levy, the head of nutrition science at Public Health England (PHE). “There is good evidence that a high intake of saturated fat increases your risk of heart disease. We need to think about where the sources of saturated fat are and how we can reduce them. The largest contributions are dairy products, including butter, and meat and meat products.”

The advice from PHE, the World Health Organization, the British Heart Foundation (BHF), Heart UK and other institutions and top academics is consistent. Butter and cheese may be fine in modest amounts in a balanced diet, but the saturated fat that they contain is potentially risky. Too much of it causes the liver to overproduce “bad” LDL cholesterol, which is implicated in heart disease.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeand...-nonsense-the-rise-of-the-cholesterol-deniers

I don't know what's right and wrong but yes, it's always been a balanced diet for me.  I've seen advice on here telling people it's fine to eat as much butter, cheese, cream and other fats as they want.  Not according to this it isn't.


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## mikeyB

I enjoyed reading that this morning. Gave me a laugh. The complete demolition of the LCHF diet, as originally advised. Though the full article did emphasise  the point that statins work best in those with already diagnosed heart disease, or post infarct, or with a strong family history. It didn’t persuade me of the statins for everyone argument.

I think most folk on here eat low carb and normal or even reduced fat diet. Except those who use coconut milk, which is loaded with saturated fat.

(Anbody who tells you that coconut milk is good saturated fat is misinformed - or fibbing)


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## eggyg

A little bit of what you fancy does you good. That’s my adage, in other words....a balanced diet! Too much of anything isn’t good for you.


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## travellor

The hook is LCHF is an all you can eat buffet.
No limits, because you get satiated by the good fats. 

And cholesterol is good for you.

Me, I just need to stop eating, and no, I don't want my arteries pumping cholesterol like it's the new blood.

A balanced diet works very well for me.


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## Eddy Edson

The best, most detailed & clearest survey of the evidence I've seen: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1161/CIR.0000000000000510

American Heart Association's Presidential Advisory on Dietary Fats and CV Disease, from last year.

_Taking into consideration the totality of the scientific evidence, satisfying rigorous criteria for causality, we conclude strongly that lowering intake of saturated fat and replacing it with unsaturated fats, especially polyunsaturated fats, will lower the incidence of CVD. This recommended shift from saturated to unsaturated fats should occur simultaneously in an overall healthful dietary pattern such as DASH (Dietary Approaches to Stop Hypertension) or the Mediterranean diet as emphasized by the 2013 American Heart Association/American College of Cardiology lifestyle guidelines and the 2015 to 2020 Dietary Guidelines for Americans._

Includes a detailed discussion of coconut oil:

_A recent survey reported that 72% of the American public rated coconut oil as a “healthy food” compared with 37% of nutritionists.94 This disconnect between lay and expert opinion can be attributed to the marketing of coconut oil in the popular press. ...

However, because coconut oil increases LDL cholesterol, a cause of CVD, and has no known offsetting favorable effects, we advise against the use of coconut oil._


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## Hepato-pancreato

Lurpak, Blue topped milk ( or full fat ). Don’t use any low fat, diet or any other of the mental trickery they use to buy their product. The new one I see that’s popping up is protein. Protein weetabix protein porridge. To much protein is excreted into expensive urine. 
My cholesterol has always been fine. Thanks to this forum and my gp. I have rejected my diabetologist’s recomendation to use statins as a preventative measure.


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## travellor

Benny G said:


> As a diabetic I try to adapt my diet to my health requirements. The Dr asks me to achieve a lower hba1c, a test every 6 months measures my progress. Once a year I get diabetic mot which checks Kidney, liver, lipid and glucose. So I can follow the results of my own experiments with food. I can confirm that switching from margarine to butter increased my hdl cholesterol and improved my ratio. Swapping carbs for LCHF (so loads of butter, nuts, olives, oily fish, double cream and cheese) has lowered trigs and maintained a good cholesterol ratio and more importantly helped reduce my hba1c.
> You can do your own experiments and share the results from your yearly blood work.
> 
> I am diabetic and carbs really are my enemy.



I'm not really interested in the "ratio".
That seems to be an ingenious way to move the goalposts, and ranks with the high cholesterol is good for you graph that gets rolled out occasionally.
I can raise my HDL eating fat too, but I'll raise my LDL an awful lot more.

I look at my actual numbers, if they are in the right place, that'll do me.
And by definition, the "ratios" must be in the right place too.
So it's win win.

Am a diabetic? (well reversed anyway)
I prefer to think I'm human, with diabetes.
And a lot more things to concentrate on then Hba1c.
Mine is good, I admit, but it's not the only thing in my life.
I can't really see the point of being a corpse with the best BG in the morgue.


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## Eddy Edson

travellor said:


> I'm not really interested in the "ratio".
> That seems to be an ingenious way to move the goalposts, and ranks with the high cholesterol is good for you graph that gets rolled out occasionally.
> I can raise my HDL eating fat too, but I'll raise my LDL an awful lot more.
> 
> I look at my actual numbers, if they are in the right place, that'll do me.
> And by definition, the "ratios" must be in the right place too.
> So it's win win.
> 
> Am a diabetic? (well reversed anyway)
> I prefer to think I'm human, with diabetes.
> And a lot more things to concentrate on then Hba1c.
> Mine is good, I admit, but it's not the only thing in my life.
> I can't really see the point of being a corpse with the best BG in the morgue.



I agree. I think it's pretty clear from the studies that once yr BG is below a certain level (say HbA1c = 7.5%/58 or thereabouts), blood pressure and lipids become increasingly more important than BG for health.

For lipids, I don't have a very clear idea of which metrics are most important, but if I had to pick, from what I've seen, I'd guess that LDL and trigs are more important than HDL and ratios - could be wrong.


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## travellor

Benny G said:


> Goal posts? Aim for the back of the net. Are you talking about football?
> The reason the cholesterol ratio is measured is because it is useful.
> Are you a Hba1c denier? If you don't think it's important then you are in the minority.
> We will all end up in the morgue and for the majority of diabetic people the cause will not be diabetes.



What on earth is a "Hba1c denier"?


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## travellor

Benny G said:


> "And a lot more things to concentrate on then Hba1c.
> Mine is good, I admit, but it's not the only thing in my life.
> I can't really see the point of being a corpse with the best BG in the morgue."



Someone with a balanced lifestyle?
Erm, ok.


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## Eddy Edson

A couple of figs from the AHA piece.

First, CVD risk changes associated with different substitutes for saturated fat.  Monounsaturated, polyunsaturated, carbs from whole grains all good.  Transfats bad, refined carbs pretty much a wash.



Second, impact on lipids.  On the left:  Unsaturated fats and unspecified carbs all better than satfats for LDL; unsaturated better for trigs but carbs worse, versus satfats; unsaturated a little bit worse and carbs more so for HDL, versus satfats.

On the right, looking at carbs versus various satfats in more detail.


In general: satfats bad; unsat good; carbs, especially whole grains, generally better than satfats.


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## nonethewiser

A really good newspaper article as you'd expect from the guardian.

Wouldn't like to be a patient of that Malhotra guy, another publication seems to have his cards marked  https://health.spectator.co.uk/the-...-lifestyle-guide-based-on-distorted-evidence/

Agree with the sentiments put forward by eggyg


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## Matt Cycle

I've been T1 for 32 years and my last HbA1c was 42 (6.0%), my best ever - achieved on a normal veggie plant based balanced diet.  This includes carbs, protein and fat.  My cholesterol levels have never changed much all the time I've been diabetic and total last time was 4.3 with ideal ratios without statins.  I don't eat butter, I don't even like the stuff.  My diet hasn't changed much throughout the years but better technology - Libre and pump and focusing on testing has fine tuned my control.  

My issue with the LCHF gurus mentioned in the articles is most of them have as much relevant medical training as me i.e. the square root of f**k all.  Harcombe is an economist and that clown Noakes clearly has no clue about T1.  The empirical evidence is not there.  One thing they all seem to have in common though is books to sell and websites to promote.


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## travellor

Matt Cycle said:


> I've been T1 for 32 years and my last HbA1c was 42 (6.0%), my best ever - achieved on a normal veggie plant based balanced diet.  This includes carbs, protein and fat.  My cholesterol levels have never changed much all the time I've been diabetic and total last time was 4.3 with ideal ratios without statins.  I don't eat butter, I don't even like the stuff.  My diet hasn't changed much throughout the years but better technology - Libre and pump and focusing on testing has fine tuned my control.
> 
> My issue with the LCHF gurus mentioned in the articles is most of them have as much relevant medical training as me i.e. the square root of f**k all.  Harcombe is an economist and that clown Noakes clearly has no clue about T1.  The empirical evidence is not there.  One thing they all seem to have in common though is books to sell and websites to promote.



My other issue is when you read all the "facts" and all the "peer" reviews, you realise it's a close circle of a same group engaging in a back patting exercise, with the same articles simply being circulated around and around to sell their new book, or website subscription.


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## Drummer

I can't find where I read it now - I read in the last few days a report that 50 percent of the people recorded as dying from heart attacks had below average cholesterol levels.
The truth is out there - somewhere - I just seem to have mislaid the coordinated.


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## Matt Cycle

Benny G said:


> join an organised religious group



Not sure about that bit.  Joining the Branch Davidians didn't do much for people's health.


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## mikeyB

Indeed, I miss out on the get fit, stay fit, and get loads of exercise, and I certainly wouldn’t join a religious group, I’m a rational scientist. I do know how to relax, mind, and how to stay married. Consultations free


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## travellor

Benny G said:


> Cholesterol is just one risk factor. Don't smoke or drink, don't be obese, eat well, get fit, stay fit, get loads of exercise, learn how to relax, get married, join an organised religious group.
> 
> It's 10 years since I had a hba1c below 7. At that time I used to cycle 200 to 300 miles a week and was very fit. Being fit cures many ills, but takes so much time and effort.



I find all good things take effort.
That's why I worry about the free passes that some people seem to be selling.


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## travellor

Benny G said:


> I am not sure which free passes you are talking about, but if you think they are too expensive, maybe save your money.
> (Free passes are not really free, someone has to fund them)



We seem to be agreeing quite a bit today


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## HOBIE

Always used Lurpak & been T1 for over 52 years. Keep fit & active. Eat mountains of seafood


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## travellor

HOBIE said:


> Always used Lurpak & been T1 for over 52 years. Keep fit & active. Eat mountains of seafood



I find fit and active is key for me.
I also use Lurpak.
Well, when I say use, I dont have marg or anything, but a block of butter will last me about six months, so I figure it's not going to affect me a lot if I splash out on unprocessed food there!


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## Andy HB

Benny G said:


> Should not laugh, lol. But Koresh and his pals, they all went to heaven.


Strange that the rest of the world continued, though, eh?


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## Andy HB

mikeyB said:


> Indeed, I miss out on the get fit, stay fit, and get loads of exercise, and I certainly wouldn’t join a religious group, I’m a rational scientist. I do know how to relax, mind, and how to stay married. Consultations free


But, can't you only consult on how to stay married to your wife?


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## mikeyB

Andy HB said:


> But, can't you only consult on how to stay married to your wife?


True, of course, but folk have made millions turning personal experience into books with dubious advice. Thought I might join in


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## travellor

mikeyB said:


> True, of course, but folk have made millions turning personal experience into books with dubious advice. Thought I might join in



You dont need the personal experience. Just write a book telling people what they want to hear, add a few cherry picked graphs and some pseudo science, then rewrite it occasionally when you need a few more quid.  Job done.


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## travellor

Benny G said:


> A 'good' artist needs to make one good piece of art that they can recreate, alter and milk for the rest of their career. A 'great' artist needs to make two good pieces of art...
> This is the world we live in.



I agree.

But I prefer to base my healthcare in fact, rather than art.

Art may be nice, and give some a warm fuzzy feeling, and may be constructed by a great artist, and may have a clique of supporting critics to sell it as the next must have, and tell you if you can't see the beauty, somehow you are missing the ability they have.
And I know a dead sheep pickled in formaldehyde may be the best art ever to some, but some us see a dead sheep.


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## Martin Canty

For me it's creating a balance in our diet, cutting down/out refined foods, making food from scratch using quality ingredients, using quality fats (but in sensible quantities), increasing consumption of green leafy vegetables, trying to address the ratios of Omega 3 to Omega 6 fatty acids & in all being sensible about my diet... I found a balance that works for me & I'll be sticking with it...

As for so called "Heart Healthy" options; I did a quick look to see how Corn Oil is produced

"*Production*. Almost all *corn oil* is expeller-pressed, then solvent-extracted using hexane or 2-methylpentane (isohexane). The solvent is evaporated from the *corn oil*, recovered, and re-used. After extraction, the *corn oil* is then refined by degumming and/or alkali treatment, both of which remove phosphatides"

Sounds quite yummy!!! I think I'll be sticking to my Extra Virgin & animal sourced fats.


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## travellor

Martin Canty said:


> For me it's creating a balance in our diet, cutting down/out refined foods, making food from scratch using quality ingredients, using quality fats (but in sensible quantities), increasing consumption of green leafy vegetables, trying to address the ratios of Omega 3 to Omega 6 fatty acids & in all being sensible about my diet... I found a balance that works for me & I'll be sticking with it...
> 
> As for so called "Heart Healthy" options; I did a quick look to see how Corn Oil is produced
> 
> "*Production*. Almost all *corn oil* is expeller-pressed, then solvent-extracted using hexane or 2-methylpentane (isohexane). The solvent is evaporated from the *corn oil*, recovered, and re-used. After extraction, the *corn oil* is then refined by degumming and/or alkali treatment, both of which remove phosphatides"
> 
> Sounds quite yummy!!! I think I'll be sticking to my Extra Virgin & animal sourced fats.



Very true.
(Makes me laugh well you see the 99p jar of basic coconut oil from B&M being touted as a good buy, I wouldn't even feed it to pigs, the way that is made)


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## mikeyB

Apart from anything else, coconut oil is filled with saturated fats, which are distinctly unhealthy.

And corn oil rapidly deteriorates with heating and reheating into saturated fat and trans fats, apart from being dubiously extracted by chemical washout. Cheap sunflower oil is also extracted with hexane. The sunflower oil used by crisp makers and some chippies is further chemically tuned to tolerate persistent high temperatures.

I only use olive oil (not extra virgin) or rapeseed oil, both of which tolerate heating well, and are simply extracted.


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## travellor

Benny G said:


> I'm like Popeye, quite fond of olive oil. Though I am not too sure about spinach.
> 
> I like coconut oil, at room temperature it's solid, that feature comes in handy in several of my recipes.



The virgin cold pressed coconut oil at £15+ a pop from somewhere like Holland and Barrett may be edible, (not for me personally, as it's saturated fat), but the cheap chemically recovered and bleached stuff looks like it wouldn't even make pig swill.


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## mikeyB

Aye, if you want a solid fat for your hot pastry crust use Lard. It contains less saturated fat than coconut oil and butter, has no trans fats, and has the advantage of not making your game pie taste vaguely of coconut. 

Plus, of course, it doesn’t need chemical extraction. And it’s cheap.


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## Martin Canty

mikeyB said:


> if you want a solid fat for your hot pastry crust use Lard


Invokes memories of my Grandmothers baking, Lard & Butter were a staple


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## Robin

Martin Canty said:


> Invokes memories of my Grandmothers baking, Lard & Butter were a staple


That makes me feel very old! I use a mix of lard and butter in my pastry because I like the result, my mother used all lard, I suspect because lard was cheap and butter wasn’t. Still tasted good, though.


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## travellor

Lard

Nowadays it involves chemical extraction and bleaching the final product.

So it's not quite as idealistic as it used to be.

Saturated fat is a very nice niche market earner.


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## mikeyB

Lard is never chemically extracted. Why use chemicals to extract it when wet or dry heat will do the job more cheaply and efficiently? 

Admittedly, some preservatives are added to extend shelf life (pure lard must be refrigerated to prevent rancidity), as in many dairy products, and bleaching agents to get consistency of colour, which are again commonly used in all kinds of food. You can, of course, make it at home should you wish.

Nonetheless, it still contains less saturated fat then either butter or coconut oil, and far fewer unnatural ingredients than your average low fat spread. Or a Burgen loaf, come to think.

Ever read the ingredients on the side of your toothpaste tube or mouthwash?


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## Hamrag

Drummer said:


> I can't find where I read it now - I read in the last few days a report that 50 percent of the people recorded as dying from heart attacks had below average cholesterol levels.
> The truth is out there - somewhere - I just seem to have mislaid the coordinated.


I also read somewhere!! that Men over the age of 60 with higher than the so called desirable Cholesterol level of around 4.2 Live Longer! However as with all Research findings, I take them with a pinch of salt ! (or maybe not ) Prefer to look at the mounting anecdotal evidence reported both good and bad for whatever approach used to manage health outcomes.


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## Hamrag

mikeyB said:


> Lard is never chemically extracted. Why use chemicals to extract it when wet or dry heat will do the job more cheaply and efficiently?
> 
> Admittedly, some preservatives are added to extend shelf life (pure lard must be refrigerated to prevent rancidity), as in many dairy products, and bleaching agents to get consistency of colour, which are again commonly used in all kinds of food. You can, of course, make it at home should you wish.
> 
> Nonetheless, it still contains less saturated fat then either butter or coconut oil, and far fewer unnatural ingredients than your average low fat spread. Or a Burgen loaf, come to think.
> 
> Ever read the ingredients on the side of your toothpaste tube or mouthwash?


All things in moderation! choose cold pressed virgin oils, Olive, and Avocado. Butter, and Lard. Avoid Chemically extracted oils, Low fat spreads, and Margarine. Also its not the Eggs, Milk and Lard in Yorkshire puddings (Sat Fats) its the refined Flour that's the problem! Breast Milk I believe has 20% Sat Fat ! don't think Mother Nature got it wrong!


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## Hamrag

Benny G said:


> As a diabetic I try to adapt my diet to my health requirements. The Dr asks me to achieve a lower hba1c, a test every 6 months measures my progress. Once a year I get diabetic mot which checks Kidney, liver, lipid and glucose. So I can follow the results of my own experiments with food. I can confirm that switching from margarine to butter increased my hdl cholesterol and improved my ratio. Swapping carbs for LCHF (so loads of butter, nuts, olives, oily fish, double cream and cheese) has lowered trigs and maintained a good cholesterol ratio and more importantly helped reduce my hba1c.
> You can do your own experiments and share the results from your yearly blood work.
> 
> I am diabetic and carbs really are my enemy.


Just had my annual MOT my Hba1c 39, My Lipid profile good LDL/ HDL Ratio excellent. My Cholesterol 5.2. Eat Butter, cold pressed virgin olive oil and Avocados and the oil Daily. Lard occasionally and Coconut oil Occasionally, Oily Fish 2-3 times a week, Bacon Sausage,and Fatty Lamb, and Pork. Avoid Milk (too much sugar)


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## travellor

Hamrag said:


> I also read somewhere!! that Men over the age of 60 with higher than the so called desirable Cholesterol level of around 4.2 Live Longer! However as with all Research findings, I take them with a pinch of salt ! (or maybe not ) Prefer to look at the mounting anecdotal evidence reported both good and bad for whatever approach used to manage health outcomes.



That's in the weird alternate guru universe unfortunately.
The favourite quote  includes "all causes" so yes, if you starve to death, you have low cholesterol, because you don't eat.
First world deaths only, high cholesterol kills you, so I'm going for that sweet spot in the middle.


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## travellor

Hamrag said:


> Just had my annual MOT my Hba1c 39, My Lipid profile good LDL/ HDL Ratio excellent. My Cholesterol 5.2. Eat Butter, cold pressed virgin olive oil and Avocados and the oil Daily. Lard occasionally and Coconut oil Occasionally, Oily Fish 2-3 times a week, Bacon Sausage,and Fatty Lamb, and Pork. Avoid Milk (too much sugar)


Looks good.
I don't believe in the ratio though.
Too much nonsense with it now.
I only look at the actual numbers.


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## Hamrag

travellor said:


> That's in the weird alternate guru universe unfortunately.
> The favourite quote  includes "all causes" so yes, if you starve to death, you have low cholesterol, because you don't eat.
> First world deaths only, high cholesterol kills you, so I'm going for that sweet spot in the middle.


Agree my Cholesterol level hovers around 5 ( old money until the goalposts were moved) Have two brothers 3 and 6 years my junior and both have had Heart Attacks Whilst on Statins! one of them with a consistent Level of below 4.5 !!!


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## travellor

They may well have had heart attacks a lot earlier without. Hope they are ok.


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## Hamrag

mikeyB said:


> Aye, if you want a solid fat for your hot pastry crust use Lard. It contains less saturated fat than coconut oil and butter, has no trans fats, and has the advantage of not making your game pie taste vaguely of coconut.
> 
> Plus, of course, it doesn’t need chemical extraction. And it’s cheap.


Beware not all Lard is equal. Much of it is bleached and has added stabilisers! Just make your own from rendering Pork or Beef products as you cook Will keep up to a week or more in the fridge.


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## Hamrag

travellor said:


> They may well have had heart attacks a lot earlier without. Hope they are ok.


Thanks both doing OK. But That's what their Doctors say! I'm not convinced Personally I think there is a very strong Heredity link which is more important than the effects of Statins or Cholesterol, That's how all of the Males on my Fathers side have died including him. and he went through the War on rations and was as thin as a latte.


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## nonethewiser

Hamrag said:


> Agree my Cholesterol level hovers around 5 ( old money until the goalposts were moved) Have two brothers 3 and 6 years my junior and both have had Heart Attacks Whilst on Statins! one of them with a consistent Level of below 4.5 !!!



That's reassuring then, had my review this week and total cholesterol was 3.3


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## Eddy Edson

nonethewiser said:


> That's reassuring then, had my review this week and total cholesterol was 3.3



I'm at 3.1, down from 5.5 at DX ~7 months ago - mainly due to the statin. Where I am, the target for a T2 is < 4.0.  

IMO, statins are just great, but then I've never had any bad effects from it.


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## nonethewiser

Eddy Edson said:


> I'm at 3.1, down from 5.5 at DX ~7 months ago - mainly due to the statin. Where I am, the target for a T2 is < 4.0.
> 
> IMO, statins are just great, but then I've never had any bad effects from it.



Not on statins just try to eat a balanced diet.  Great news that you don't have any side effects.


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## travellor

I have no effects from stations either


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## Hamrag

nonethewiser said:


> Not on statins just try to eat a balanced diet.  Great news that you don't have any side effects.


They seem to be fairly random regarding side effects! My brother has been put back on Statins following a recent Heart attack, he did his own experiment after weeks of shoulder and central chest pains he stopped the Statins and the symptoms disappeared the next Day. He repeated the on/off several times and same effect each time! With the symptoms he has restricted Arm movements and feels lethargic.


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## Eddy Edson

nonethewiser said:


> Not on statins just try to eat a balanced diet.  Great news that you don't have any side effects.



Well done! I see what's probably a bit of benefit from dietary tweaks but I think they take a while to kick in properly. Maybe I'll get to the point where I don't need statins, but not in a rush.  

For the moment, I'm slightly annoyed that my HDL stays stuck at 0.9 - might have to stop sniffing glue or something


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## Hamrag

travellor said:


> I have no effects from stations either


Or Goods Yards?


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