# Confused newly diagnosed Type 2



## gwalmsley (Aug 9, 2017)

Hi everyone,

I am a newly diagnosed type 2, and I have been trying to get my head around the avalanche of contradictory information I have been provided with and the information on the various web sites and forums. Lots of different information on what you can and can't eat, and if I read "in moderation" without any guide as to what the author considers 'moderate' I will scream. 

From what I can work out, if you are trying to control your diabetes with diet only it boils down to 2 rules:

Get my weight down into the approved BMI range of 20-25
Limit Carb intake to 200-300g per day spread as evenly as possible to prevent spikes
Does that seem right, or am I missing something fundamental/life threatening?

Thanks

Graham


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## Ralph-YK (Aug 9, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Limit Carb intake to 200-300g per day spread as evenly as possible to prevent spikes


I don't know the quantity to have. You do have to manage carbohydrates. I gather it also depended which carbs you have and what you have with it.
You at least have something to start with, see how it goes.
Self testing can help. It allows you to see what affect food has on your BG.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 9, 2017)

Thanks for your reply.

"I gather it also depended which carbs you have and what you have with it" is part of the problem. You can quickly vanish down the rabbit hole of GI, GL, interactions between different foods altering the GI etc. etc. It is all too overwhelming. Just trying to get it down to some simple rules to live by that stops be spending 2.5 hours in one isle of the supermarket trying to work out what I can actually eat.



Ralph-YK said:


> I don't know the quantity to have. You do have to manage carbohydrates. I gather it also depended which carbs you have and what you have with it.
> You at least have something to start with, see how it goes.
> Self testing can help. It allows you to see what affect food has on your BG.


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## Ralph-YK (Aug 9, 2017)

I know what you mean. This is where the self testing helps. Do before and after food. See what happens.


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## pav (Aug 9, 2017)

Welcome to the forum, When I did the EXPERT course a couple or so years ago they recommended the daily intake of carbs was 135g. The thinking is even among health care professionals that even 135g of carbs is to much, if I eat that many carbs a day I certainly would have bigger weight problems than I already have.

With carbs it is best to eat the foods that release carbs slowly rather than ones that normally produce rapid spikes like white bread is out for most people as it causes very rapid spikes. Other foods like rice, pasta and breakfast cereals can cause rapid spikes.

This is where testing ones levels with a meter comes in use, though probably your GP practice will have said that you don't need to test and the GP will monitor you. Most if not all on here agree the only way forward is to monitor ones levels. In that you take a reading before you eat and then 2 hours after eating, keeping a note of what you have eaten. In this way you can build up a pattern of what foods you eat and how they react with you.

There is no definitive list of foods that you avoid, what you can eat and what you might have as a treat once in a while if luck in that one.

Those that can't get test strips on prescription and can self fund tend to use the SD code free meter available from Home Health or Amazon the starter kits only come with 10 strips to get you started and a pot of 50 strips is around £8 where as most of the strips for the bigger names can be around £25+ for a pot of 50.

If you feel you would like to test your levels the first port of call is the GP practice as some type 2's are lucky to get test strips on prescription if they they are not on any meds that cause hypos, but may be limited to the test strips they can have. If you you feel you would like to self fund and test the UK uses the mmoll method of measuring ones levels. If you order from Home health on the link below remember to select the I am a diabetic option as that removes the VAT off the purchase and the mmoll meter option

https://homehealth-uk.com/all-products/codefree-blood-glucose-monitoring-system-mmoll-or-mgdl/

There are quite a few on here that follow a low carb diet and will be able to explain better than myself what they eat. 

If you can reduce weight, depending on what your current weight is can improve ones levels, it not true that type 2's fall into the overweight group of people.


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## Northerner (Aug 9, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I am a newly diagnosed type 2, and I have been trying to get my head around the avalanche of contradictory information I have been provided with and the information on the various web sites and forums. Lots of different information on what you can and can't eat, and if I read "in moderation" without any guide as to what the author considers 'moderate' I will scream.
> 
> ...


Hi Graham, welcome to the forum  Sorry to hear about your diagnosis, and the experience of confusion that greets many people when faced with vague and impractical advice  Hopefully, we can help change the situation so you feel better informed and can set about getting your blood sugar levels under good control 

The first thing to bear in mind is that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to this, although there are some general guidelines you can follow. You have mentioned two of them above - weight loss (if you need to lose weight, not everyone does at diagnosis) will help your body handle your food intake better, making your cells more responsive to the insulin your pancreas is producing. Another big factor to consider in this respect is regular exercise - this will also improve your body's capacity to take up and use the glucose in your blood and thus keep your levels under better control. Is there any particular activity you enjoy? It doesn't have to mean running marathons or spending long sessions in the gym, just a regular daily walk will really help 

Secondly, as you mention, is limiting your consumption of carbohydrate to the amounts it can tolerate well. I would say straight away that 200-300g daily of carbs would be considered very high by most people looking to manage their diabetes well, you really need to be looking at a low to moderate carb intake of 80-150g daily to begin with, depending on how you react to your different food choices. How will you know how you react? The only definite and practical way is to follow a regime of testing your blood sugar levels before and after eating, using a home blood glucose monitor. Your GP/nurse may supply you with this and test strips on prescription if you explain how you intend to use them to learn about your diet and tolerances. Have a read of Test,Review, Adjust by Alan S in order to understand the process. If you are refused a meter  then it is worth funding your own initially whilst you gather information and then return to the GP with the evidence that it is helping you actively manage your condition. The cheapest option we have come across is the SD Codefree Meter which has test strips at around £8 for 50 (High St brands can charge £30+ for 50 test strips ).

I'd recommend starting a food diary initially, writing down the amount, in grams, of carbs in everything you eat and drink - this will provide you with a good template, not only of your current intake, but also to find areas where you might reduce your carb intake by substituting items with lower carb alternatives or reducing portion sizes (more green veg, fewer potatoes, for example).

For a good overview of diabetes and a practical approach to selecting food items that are suitable, have  read of Maggie Davey's letter. I'd also recommend getting a copy of the excellent Type 2 Diabetes: The First Year by Gretchen Becker - these are trusted, reliable resources that have stood the test of time and are free of the myths and misconceptions you have no doubt already encountered!

Please feel free to ask any questions you may have - there will always be someone here happy to help!


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## gwalmsley (Aug 9, 2017)

Thanks for you detailed response.

What kinds of food are you eating to only taking 135g of Carbs per day? At the moment it feels like just reading the label adds carbs to your total 

I did stop having potatoes but having visited the dietitian yesterday she said potatoes were fine 'in moderation' (that wonderful phrase again). I have swapped over to brown/wholegrain/basmati rice, wholemeal bread etc. and I do like meat so can eat a lot of that (but of course then you have the 'don't eat too much protein' warnings). Veg is fine, but not a great fan of nuts (not allergic, just don't like the taste).

The other issue appears to be eating out.. absolutely no chance of knowing any of the numbers for what you are eating.

Graham




pav said:


> Welcome to the forum, When I did the EXPERT course a couple or so years ago they recommended the daily intake of carbs was 135g. The thinking is even among health care professionals that even 135g of carbs is to much, if I eat that many carbs a day I certainly would have bigger weight problems than I already have.
> 
> With carbs it is best to eat the foods that release carbs slowly rather than ones that normally produce rapid spikes like white bread is out for most people as it causes very rapid spikes. Other foods like rice, pasta and breakfast cereals can cause rapid spikes.
> 
> ...


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## gwalmsley (Aug 9, 2017)

Thanks for responding.

This is part of the confusing... Diabetic nurse says one thing, Dietitian says something else, forums say something else, it makes you feel you can't eat anything.

First thing I did was to start to keep a food diary, so I could see what I was eating. Just looked at the figures and carb intake for the last 8 days is 137, 161, 113, 206, 161, 111, 185,160 which is a lot lower than the target of 300 I have, so 150 probably isn't a stretch 

You are the first person to actually mention why I should exercise more, I thought it was just to help lose weight (current BMI of 30 and heading down to 25) rather than use up the glucose in my blood. Certain exercise is difficult due to problems with my knees, but I can walk a few miles and enjoy cycling and kayaking.

Thanks for the reading recommendations, I will get on those straight away.

I have another appointment with the diabetic nurse tomorrow morning, so I will ask about the testing.

Graham



Northerner said:


> Hi Graham, welcome to the forum  Sorry to hear about your diagnosis, and the experience of confusion that greets many people when faced with vague and impractical advice  Hopefully, we can help change the situation so you feel better informed and can set about getting your blood sugar levels under good control
> 
> The first thing to bear in mind is that there is no one-size-fits-all solution to this, although there are some general guidelines you can follow. You have mentioned two of them above - weight loss (if you need to lose weight, not everyone does at diagnosis) will help your body handle your food intake better, making your cells more responsive to the insulin your pancreas is producing. Another big factor to consider in this respect is regular exercise - this will also improve your body's capacity to take up and use the glucose in your blood and thus keep your levels under better control. Is there any particular activity you enjoy? It doesn't have to mean running marathons or spending long sessions in the gym, just a regular daily walk will really help
> 
> ...


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## pav (Aug 9, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Thanks for you detailed response.
> 
> What kinds of food are you eating to only taking 135g of Carbs per day? At the moment it feels like just reading the label adds carbs to your total
> 
> ...



Most of my carbs come from wholemeal bread or on occasions granary a fair few on here like burgen bread of various types, big supermarkets in my area have it though the ones I have tried are not to my taste. Other carbs are potatoes not to many when having baked spuds it tends to be the home brands frozen ones which are around the medium size (smaller than my clenched fist. I don't like rice, pasta or pizza so they are an easy to put on my avoid list. I avoid breakfast cereals as the ones I like spike me way to much. Meat wise it's mainly Turkey, Chicken and pork with the odd bit of beef. 

I did have a treat the other night and have some plain naan bread with a curry very high in carbs, but was lucky as for some strange reason they were ok on this occasion, other times no way I would get away with them, I do tend to snack on nuts.


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## Northerner (Aug 9, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Thanks for responding.
> 
> This is part of the confusing... Diabetic nurse says one thing, Dietitian says something else, forums say something else, it makes you feel you can't eat anything.
> 
> ...



Looks like you may not have to struggle too much with your carb intake, from those numbers  Good luck with your appointment  If they are reluctant to prescribe strips, stress that you wish to take an active role in your diabetes management, not wait for a 3 or 6 monthly test which may only tell you that you haven't made good choices, but not identify the culprits. It's possible to manage your levels with the information from testing, but only if you are willing to limit your diet on a more or less permanent basis - testing allows you to retain flexibility so you can eat more normally, enjoying the things that you tolerate well that you might otherwise drop. What many healthcare professionals fail to grasp about Type 2 (and Type 1, so some extent) is that it is very much an individual condition that requires individually tailored knowledge. It's thought that each person's unique biome - the bacteria that lives in our gut - has a big influence on determining our tolerances  If you're interested, this was investigated on a BBC show a while ago:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/art...on-weight-and-not-others-and-can-we-change-it


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## pav (Aug 9, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Thanks for responding.
> 
> This is part of the confusing... Diabetic nurse says one thing, Dietitian says something else, forums say something else, it makes you feel you can't eat anything.
> 
> ...



One problem is some nurses are stuck in the olden days saying you must eat so much of this and that, which in turn is not always suitable for diabetics.

As for exercise I am limited to what I can do  due to arthritis and back problems, but do go out to meet some ex work mates and other friends, and even a gentle stroll around in the fresh air brings my levels down quickly, on more adventurous days it can catch me out some times and carry hypo treats.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 9, 2017)

SD Codefree meter, lancets and strips purchased, should be here Friday.

No point even trying to fight my local doctors surgery over it.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 9, 2017)

Hi Pav,

You mention carrying hypo treats. I thought hypos was only a type 1 issue because type 2 was too much sugar in the blood rather than not enough? Nothing has been mentioned to me about it from the various healthcare professionals. A few times since my diet change I have been dizzy on standing up, but just put it down to 'one of those things'. This may be a silly question, but how do you recognise a hypo?

Thanks

Graham



pav said:


> One problem is some nurses are stuck in the olden days saying you must eat so much of this and that, which in turn is not always suitable for diabetics.
> 
> As for exercise I am limited to what I can do  due to arthritis and back problems, but do go out to meet some ex work mates and other friends, and even a gentle stroll around in the fresh air brings my levels down quickly, on more adventurous days it can catch me out some times and carry hypo treats.


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## pav (Aug 9, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> SD Codefree meter, lancets and strips purchased, should be here Friday.



Your quick off the mark  , still worth asking the the nurse or doc for a meter and tests strips, you could be lucky. Another point is if they put you on any medication like metformin (normally the first one they start people on) and you are in England and under 60 you are entitled to free prescriptions, though to get them you need to apply for a prescription exemption certificate which lasts for 5 years the docs will normally have the form and will need to be signed by a doctor.


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## Ljc (Aug 9, 2017)

Hi Graham Welcome. It is so confusing isn't it.  You're told one thing by one and something total different by another. and that's just the professionals.
On here you'll get advise based on what has worked for us, it's up to you to decide which is best for you, but I strongly suggest you monitor your own blood glucose as has already been suggested.

I'm going to give you two bits  of advise. At first Don't go mad on the dietary changes , what I mean is do what is achievable as this is a marathon not a sprint.
Their is a book called ,Type 2 diabetes the first year. By Gretchen Becker which I believe you will find helpful . She's a fellow T2 who goes through month by month her first year after diagnosis
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product...fm-21&linkId=0fe91e54d4071470ef950412cbbd7e95


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## pav (Aug 9, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Hi Pav,
> 
> You mention carrying hypo treats. I thought hypos was only a type 1 issue because type 2 was too much sugar in the blood rather than not enough? Nothing has been mentioned to me about it from the various healthcare professionals. A few times since my diet change I have been dizzy on standing up, but just put it down to 'one of those things'. This may be a silly question, but how do you recognise a hypo?
> 
> ...



Type 2's can get hypo's if they are on meds that can cause hypos like glicazide or if they are put on insulin at some stage. Normal starting off meds of metformin do not cause hypos.

What you may be getting is what's called a false hypo, to your body it is a hypo, but in medical terms of a hypo it's not a hypo where your levels are below 4.0. The reason for the false hypo your body has become accustomed to high sugar levels and that has become the normal for you, when you start dropping your levels towards normal then your body reacts to this as a feeling of a hypo even though your level are above the hypo level.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 9, 2017)

Ljc said:


> ...
> Their is a book called ,Type 2 diabetes the first year. By Gretchen Becker which I believe you will find helpful . She's a fellow T2 who goes through month by month her first year after diagnosis
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product...fm-21&linkId=0fe91e54d4071470ef950412cbbd7e95



Bought and downloading to my Kindle as I type 

Graham


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## gwalmsley (Aug 9, 2017)

Great explanation, thank you.

The level of sugar and carbs I am taking in has massively reduced compared to what I was eating. When you don't have to think about it that meal out at the Chinese, or pizza on the way home is just easy and delicious! Once I started to look at what I was eating I was shocked at the level of calories and sugars I was taking in. Even things I thought were healthy like fruit juice, or those small bags of dried fruit you get, all landmines in the battlefield of sugar intake 

I am also finding that come the revolution people who design food labels are up against the wall along with the estate agent photographers  Packets that give the numbers per 100g that they are required to do, but then don't put an overall weight on the packet! or give an amount per 'serving' without saying how much that is.

I made a big mistake the other day. I was going to the cinema (cineworld) and thought I would be sensible and downloaded the nutrition information sheet from their web site to check what I could eat. I found to my surprise that the hot dog would be fine so had one of those. It was only later that I smelt a rat and went back to double check.... the numbers given were for the hot dog itself, the roll it was on was listed 2 pages away and was a totally different problem. I am not aware of a 'can I have the hotdog without the roll' option on their menu, so I think is is bad that they split the listings of the items.

Sorry for going on, but one more question, how do people deal with eating out? Obviously you have no real idea how something was cooked, or what is really in it (i.e. 'fish pie' covers a lot of options) so how do you cope?

Thanks

Graham



pav said:


> Type 2's can get hypo's if they are on meds that can cause hypos like glicazide or if they are put on insulin at some stage. Normal starting off meds of metformin do not cause hypos.
> 
> What you may be getting is what's called a false hypo, to your body it is a hypo, but in medical terms of a hypo it's not a hypo where your levels are below 4.0. The reason for the false hypo your body has become accustomed to high sugar levels and that has become the normal for you, when you start dropping your levels towards normal then your body reacts to this as a feeling of a hypo even though your level are above the hypo level.


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## PinkGrapefruit (Aug 9, 2017)

Personally, I have taken the low-moderate carb path, and it's helped me get my numbers down and shed the weight.

Normal day:

breakfast few berries (10 carbs)
coffee with milk (5 carbs)
snack 9bar peanut (8 carbs)
lunch - prepacked salad (7 carbs)
lunch - tuna / chicken bites (6 carbs)
coffee with milk (5 carbs)
snack 9bar peanut / handful of nuts (8 carbs)
dinner - meat & veg (15-30 carbs depending on sauce) i like curries, stir fries, cauliflower cheese etc.
occasional late night snack of nuts or berries (10 carbs)

Looks like I'm hitting around 75-90g of carbs a day; sometimes less, sometimes more.


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## pav (Aug 9, 2017)

When I eat out I find many of the pubs where I have meals are small on the portion size like chips you get like a dozen and normally select meals where additional carbs are not an added item like gammon is a nice treat when out for me as I don't very often have it, One pub I used to go to did a Sunday lunch, the potato content was not a lot but where generous on the chicken, I just did not eat the skin. On the odd occasion I had a small fish in batter but the fat from frying the fish tended to slow the carbs absorption down. The biggest headache was going to an Indian restaurant and did a compromise had the curry with naan bread but no chips or vice versa not having the two together helped, I am not perfect in what I eat due to the foods I like and dislike, when I do go out I try to eat a bit lighter meal earlier instead of the normal one, some times I get it right.


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## Ditto (Aug 9, 2017)

Hello Graham and welcome to the forum


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## gwalmsley (Aug 9, 2017)

Thanks!



Ditto said:


> Hello Graham and welcome to the forum


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## MikeTurin (Aug 9, 2017)

Hello Graham, Italy here.
I agree that it's really difficult to make sensible choices on what to eat especially when eating out. 
When I am at home I follow a plant based diet, that is not a vegetarian diet, because I eat meat and fish, but not every day. I go with big, spicy bowl of salad especially now because is a really hot summer. By the way seasonal vegetable are cheap. Freeze vegetables are also a cheap, good idea. 

Unfortunately, when eating out it could be a problem, especially on fast foods or fairs. Most of pubs I've cone are happy to switch potaoes with grilled eggplants or sauerkrauts.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 9, 2017)

Maybe I need to move to Italy 



MikeTurin said:


> Hello Graham, Italy here.
> I agree that it's really difficult to make sensible choices on what to eat especially when eating out.
> When I am at home I follow a plant based diet, that is not a vegetarian diet, because I eat meat and fish, but not every day. I go with big, spicy bowl of salad especially now because is a really hot summer. By the way seasonal vegetable are cheap. Freeze vegetables are also a cheap, good idea.
> 
> Unfortunately, when eating out it could be a problem, especially on fast foods or fairs. Most of pubs I've cone are happy to switch potaoes with grilled eggplants or sauerkrauts.


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## Wirrallass (Aug 9, 2017)

Hi Graham and a warm welcome to our friendly supportive forum tho sorry to read you have found yourself here in the first place!! Being dx (diagnosed) can come as a shock - be overwhelming and a daunting prospect - we've been there & understand fully where you are coming from  - so many questions needing answers - but please be assured that your diabetes will become easier to manage given time. There's so much to learn in the beginning but stay on this forum and we will collectively guide you through your diabetes journey.

There is a book that I recommend frequently called the CARB & CALORIE COUNTER which can be obtained from Amazon for approximately £10. It has over 1700 coloured illustrations that show how many carborhydrates are in different food and drinks which I'm sure you will find very helpful - and will answer your questions re carbs. Handy to keep in your kitchen for easy reference too.

At the rear of the book there is a separate section relating to dining out which I think you will similarly find useful. There's also a smaller version called POCKET COUNTER - again from Amazon for about £6.99 which is a handy size to slip into your jacket pocket to refer to if you are going out for a meal.

I hope you find these books as helpful as they do me. Do please stay in touch as to your progress and if there's anything you're particularly concerned about then please ask as many times as you need to - theres always someone about who will answer your questions. Take care x


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## gwalmsley (Aug 9, 2017)

Thanks for the information.

I am currently using the Carbs & Cals App on my phone, which I believe provides similar information but in a more (for me) portable format. It has pictures of about 2000+ foods but I am finding almost everything you buy, even main brand products, are missing so need to be entered manually.

I will got hold of a copy for the dining out section, which will hopefully help me.

Is this the book? It has the same logo on the front as the app I am using - https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Ca...sr=8-5&keywords=carb+and+calorie+counter+book

Update: Just checked the app and it has the eating out sections as well. Thanks for pointing it out! 
Graham



wirralass said:


> Hi Graham and a warm welcome to our friendly supportive forum tho sorry to read you have found yourself here in the first place!! Being dx (diagnosed) can come as a shock - be overwhelming and a daunting prospect - we've been there & understand fully where you are coming from  - so many questions needing answers - but please be assured that your diabetes will become easier to manage given time. There's so much to learn in the beginning but stay on this forum and we will collectively guide you through your diabetes journey.
> 
> There is a book that I recommend frequently called the CARB & CALORIE COUNTER which can be obtained from Amazon for approximately £10. It has over 1700 coloured illustrations that show how many carborhydrates are in different food and drinks which I'm sure you will find very helpful - and will answer your questions re carbs. Handy to keep in your kitchen for easy reference too.
> 
> ...


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## Wirrallass (Aug 9, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Thanks for the information.
> 
> I am currently using the Carbs & Cals App on my phone, which I believe provides similar information but in a more (for me) portable format. It has pictures of about 2000+ foods but I am finding almost everything you buy, even main brand products, are missing so need to be entered manually.
> 
> ...


Hi again sorry only just getting back to you Graham - yes its the same - i omitted to attach a photo in my post above - will do that now so you can compare.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 9, 2017)

Yes, that is the same one. Thanks!



wirralass said:


> Hi again sorry only just getting back to you Graham - yes its the same - i omitted to attach a photo in my post above - will do that now so you can compare.


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## Kentoldlady (Aug 9, 2017)

Hello and welcome.
I was diagnosed on june 26th this year, so still finding my way around.

Iagree that the carbs and cals book is very useful. I think the best piece of advice I have seen is to read, read and then read a bit more. It is very confusing to find so much info, and it seems that all of it contradicts the last bit of info you have read. 

I have got my own test kit and I " eat to my metre", meaning that I test, eat, write and test some more. At first I was testing after an hour, ninety minutes and two hours. Now I do it after ninety minutes and then two hours.  It is very informative.

I have decided to follow the 8 week blood sugar diet by Michael Moseley ( could have maybe got the name wrong!), and its found on amazon.  I dont follow the recipes because they seem way to fiddley, but I keep to 800 calories a day. I also keep to below 50grms of carbs a day. I have decided that the low carb high fat diet is the one for me.

However, I do have a fair bit of weight to lose and appreciate that this way of eating is not for everyone. But it is not forever and will increase the amount of carbs( carefully!!)when I reach a better weight.

Since following this diet I have not gone above 7.0 , an hour after eating and that was at the beginning, now its never more thanabout 6.

My hba1c was 53, and I was given metformin which I keep forgetting to take!.

As everyone has said, its a marathon not a sprint, but there is a lot you can do to make your health a great deal better. 

Good luck!!


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## gwalmsley (Aug 9, 2017)

Thanks for posting. 

I think one of my main problems is the contradictory information you find. I just have it all straight in my head then the next thing I read changes it all again. 

I am eating about 1200-1400 calories a day and need to lose about 3 stone in total. 

Test kit is on order, which I thought was coming tomorrow but actually appears to be a week tomorrow. Oh well. 

Graham



Kentoldlady said:


> Hello and welcome.
> I was diagnosed on june 26th this year, so still finding my way around.
> 
> Iagree that the carbs and cals book is very useful. I think the best piece of advice I have seen is to read, read and then read a bit more. It is very confusing to find so much info, and it seems that all of it contradicts the last bit of info you have read.
> ...


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## Kentoldlady (Aug 9, 2017)

I don't think I will ever get it straight in my head!! 
May I ask what was your hba1c? And are you just controlled by diet?

My surgery nurse, who was very nice, told me about the eatwell guide on the nhs website and said I could go on a course about t2d, which is in November.
I didnt believe that the nhs guide really is the best advice and didnt want to wait until November.

You must do what feels right for you, but I like the science behind a lchf diet. And its working for me.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 9, 2017)

I don't have a hba1c number yet, they haven't even told me my blood test numbers just that they are over 7 & 11. I was only told I had diabetes on the 20th July. 

At the moment trying to control by getting my weight down, exercise up and diet. At the end of three months they will do the hba1c test. 

They have mentioned going on a course as well as eye test and getting my feet checked, but no dates for those yet. 



Kentoldlady said:


> I don't think I will ever get it straight in my head!!
> May I ask what was your hba1c? And are you just controlled by diet?
> 
> My surgery nurse, who was very nice, told me about the eatwell guide on the nhs website and said I could go on a course about t2d, which is in November.
> ...


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## Wirrallass (Aug 9, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> I don't have a hba1c number yet, they haven't even told me my blood test numbers just that they are over 7 & 11. I was only told I had diabetes on the 20th July.
> 
> At the moment trying to control by getting my weight down, exercise up and diet. At the end of three months they will do the hba1c test.
> 
> They have mentioned going on a course as well as eye test and getting my feet checked, but no dates for those yet.


It is difficult to absorb everyrhing at the onset of diabetes but when you're receiving conflicting advice it most certainly is very confusing. As others have said, the only way to understand & manage your diabetes where food is concerned, is to test before your meals - then test again 2hrs after your meals.

So for instance if your bgl before your meal is say 6.0 - and 2hrs post meal it is 8.00 then that is an acceptable increase in number. Or if your bgl pre meal is 4.6 and 6.7 post meal then this is in range too. On the other hand if your bgl pre meal is say i.e. 5.3 and is say i.e. 12.5 post meal then this is a pointer that you have eaten too many carbs in that meal (i.e. too many potatoes/white bread/white rice) portion size is paramount towards managing your diabetes.

The motto is to test test and test to enable you to determine which food you can tolerate and which food you can't. It takes time to discover which food you can tolerate so do be patient - you're not in a race - baby steps to start with. We will be here to help you if you're unsure about anything. I was dx in April 2016 and I still learn something new on here almost every day just by reading other posts.

The HbA1c blood test will reveal how much glucose is in your blood for the previous 12 wks - and this means you need to reduce your carb intake leading up to this blood test - and thereafter. Honestly, you will get the hang of it Graham even if it causes a few headaches along the way Walking helps to lower bgls as well as helping you to remain active. Hope I haven't bored you too much but also hope you have gained some knowledge here. Take care


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## Ljc (Aug 9, 2017)

Hi Graham. You're not alone in being given conflicting advise by the professionals.  Don't worry though, you will find out what works best for you. The meter you're getting will aid you greatly in this. U

I'm in the process of edumacating my Diabetes nurse at the gp , she is lovely ,is not dogmatic and is happy to listen but imo knows diddly  squat about insulin and gets all flustered when I mention it  so I ask the experts on here .  We no longer discuss my diet as we'll never agree on that darned eatwell plate or whatever it's called now. 
The thing is the D nurses at GPs actually haven't had much training in Diabetes and some haven't had the update training they're supposed to. 
It also doesn't help that Diabetes doesn't seem to know the rules it's supposed to follow
And changes with the weather or illness (I'm not joking about that bit)


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## gwalmsley (Aug 10, 2017)

Great information, thank you! Education is never boring so please keep it up 

Diabetes nurse appointment this morning, so hopefully will be happy with the changes I have made.



wirralass said:


> It is difficult to absorb everyrhing at the onset of diabetes but when you're receiving conflicting advice it most certainly is very confusing. As others have said, the only way to understand & manage your diabetes where food is concerned, is to test before your meals - then test again 2hrs after your meals.
> 
> So for instance if your bgl before your meal is say 6.0 - and 2hrs post meal it is 8.00 then that is an acceptable increase in number. Or if your bgl pre meal is 4.6 and 6.7 post meal then this is in range too. On the other hand if your bgl pre meal is say i.e. 5.3 and is say i.e. 12.5 post meal then this is a pointer that you have eaten too many carbs in that meal (i.e. too many potatoes/white bread/white rice) portion size is paramount towards managing your diabetes.
> 
> ...


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## gwalmsley (Aug 10, 2017)

Thanks for the advice, always good to know you are not alone. Once my meter arrives I will start the testing and see what I can and can't eat.

BTW, love your avatar 



Ljc said:


> Hi Graham. You're not alone in being given conflicting advise by the professionals.  Don't worry though, you will find out what works best for you. The meter you're getting will aid you greatly in this. U
> 
> I'm in the process of edumacating my Diabetes nurse at the gp , she is lovely ,is not dogmatic and is happy to listen but imo knows diddly  squat about insulin and gets all flustered when I mention it  so I ask the experts on here .  We no longer discuss my diet as we'll never agree on that darned eatwell plate or whatever it's called now.
> The thing is the D nurses at GPs actually haven't had much training in Diabetes and some haven't had the update training they're supposed to.
> ...


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## PinkGrapefruit (Aug 10, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Great information, thank you! Education is never boring so please keep it up
> 
> Diabetes nurse appointment this morning, so hopefully will be happy with the changes I have made.


Good luck - see if you can get some numbers from her for the initial tests they used to make your diagnosis.


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## Bubbsie (Aug 10, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> I don't have a hba1c number yet, they haven't even told me my blood test numbers just that they are over 7 & 11. I was only told I had diabetes on the 20th July.
> 
> At the moment trying to control by getting my weight down, exercise up and diet. At the end of three months they will do the hba1c test.
> 
> They have mentioned going on a course as well as eye test and getting my feet checked, but no dates for those yet.


Hi Graham...it might be an idea to ask for your blood test results during your appointment...you need a starting point...something to indicate how you are managing your diabetes...to track your progress...identify any trouble spots...how you are reducing your blood sugars...the meter will give you a spot check  only...what your BG is that moment...where as your HbA1c test gives an average for the previous three months...your meter will/should be able to give you an average for the last 30 days...some also provide the average for the last 90 days...I did use the codefree initially...but...can't honestly remember if the codefree covers the ninety day average...while not as accurate as the HbA1c...it will allow you an approximation of your average for that period...good luck with the DSN appointment...with DSN's it can be a bit of a lottery...some are more enlightened than others...will discuss different options for diet control...however...do watch out for the 'eat well plate' approach...often trotted out as standard advice...once you receive your meter & strips...that will be your best guide to  what diet/foods are best for you...in simple terms mostly about experimenting...while it's still early days for you...it's clear from your questions/comments you have a good understanding of your diabetes...what you need to do to manage/control it...certainly more clued up than I was when I first arrived here...good luck with the appointment...be interested to  hear how you fared with the DSN.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 10, 2017)

So.... back from the appointment. First some numbers:

BP 120/80 so the 7.5mg of Ramipril per day is working
Blood test results
Normal 16
Fasting 9.7​Lost about 6kg since the last appointment.

Chatted about increased irritability and dizzy spells and she said that was my body getting used to the new 'normal' so would level out.

I mentioned using Carbs & Cals and she looked horrified. Said it was designed for Type 1 people to count carbs for insulin dose and was over the top for me. Also thought my full food diary was too much as well.

I said I had bought a meter and got the same look. The local commissioning group doesn't support the use of meters for unmedicated Type 2s, and doesn't normally supply them to initial users of Metformin either so won't fund them.

Normal diet advice and first hba1c scheduled for the end of September.


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## Northerner (Aug 10, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> I mentioned using Carbs & Cals and she looked horrified. Said it was designed for Type 1 people to count carbs for insulin dose and was over the top for me. Also thought my full food diary was too much as well.
> 
> I said I had bought a meter and got the same look. The local commissioning group doesn't support the use of meters for unmedicated Type 2s, and doesn't normally supply them to initial users of Metformin either so won't fund them.
> 
> Normal diet advice and first hba1c scheduled for the end of September.


She sounds a bit 'old school', unfortunately  Being 'carb-aware' is of just as much importance to Type 2 as Type 1 - or whatever Type of diabetes you may have (there are several more!). Your diary and using a meter are the perfect tools for you to understand your diabetes and how it affects you as an individual - I honestly don't understand this reaction to people who want to take an active role in managing their diabetes instead of blind faith in vague advice - why can't they just be supportive of your commitment and efforts? It's beyond me! 

Fortunately, you'll get lots of support and encouragement here  I have been on this forum since it started in 2008 and everyone who has followed the principles you are now following has hugely improved their blood glucose management. It's not difficult, wouldn't cost the NHS much to provide motivated people with the tools they need i.e. test strips, and results in a great improvement in quality of life for the patient, and greatly reduced risk of expensive complications in the future


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## Ljc (Aug 10, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> So.... back from the appointment. First some numbers:
> 
> BP 120/80 so the 7.5mg of Ramipril per day is working
> Blood test results
> ...


 I'm envious of your BP.
O how I know that look many of us here do.
One day the NICE , CCGs and NHS will wise up to what we've been saying for years re testing our BG levels.
We see first hand the benefits of self testing  and also from newbies who start testing often against professional advise.
I also hope that one day soon they will catch on to what people on here have been saying about carbohydrates for years .


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## gwalmsley (Aug 10, 2017)

I did get the 'old school' impression and the immediate jump to 'we won't pay for it' when I mentioned the meter told me all I needed to know.

I am in the lucky position I can just pay for the meter and strips myself without any issues, so all good. I know Diabetes is a progressive disease, but the longer I can put off having to go on meds the better I think.



Northerner said:


> She sounds a bit 'old school', unfortunately  Being 'carb-aware' is of just as much importance to Type 2 as Type 1 - or whatever Type of diabetes you may have (there are several more!). Your diary and using a meter are the perfect tools for you to understand your diabetes and how it affects you as an individual - I honestly don't understand this reaction to people who want to take an active role in managing their diabetes instead of blind faith in vague advice - why can't they just be supportive of your commitment and efforts? It's beyond me!
> 
> Fortunately, you'll get lots of support and encouragement here  I have been on this forum since it started in 2008 and everyone who has followed the principles you are now following has hugely improved their blood glucose management. It's not difficult, wouldn't cost the NHS much to provide motivated people with the tools they need i.e. test strips, and results in a great improvement in quality of life for the patient, and greatly reduced risk of expensive complications in the future


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## MikeTurin (Aug 10, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> I mentioned using Carbs & Cals and she looked horrified. Said it was designed for Type 1 people to count carbs for insulin dose and was over the top for me. Also thought my full food diary was too much as well.



You're trying to lose some weight, isn't it? A food diary and calorie countin I think is essential in a calorie-reduced slimming diet. When you're it why not to control the macronutriens ratio?


> I said I had bought a meter and got the same look. The local commissioning group doesn't support the use of meters for unmedicated Type 2s, and doesn't normally supply them to initial users of Metformin either so won't fund them.


Same here (in Turin) Bought my meter and diverted the bus pass money to buy test strips. 


> Normal diet advice and first hba1c scheduled for the end of September.


What is normal diet advice?


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## gwalmsley (Aug 10, 2017)

MikeTurin said:


> ...What is normal diet advice?



Switch from white things to wholegrain or wholemeal things, cut out refined sugar, no full fat fizzy drinks, potatoes with the skin on so the fibre slows down the digestion etc. etc. The normal healthy eating instructions.


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## Northerner (Aug 10, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Switch from white things to wholegrain or wholemeal things, cut out refined sugar, no full fat fizzy drinks, potatoes with the skin on so the fibre slows down the digestion etc. etc. The normal healthy eating instructions.


I'd recommend Burgen Soya and Linseed bread - the use of soya flour in the recipe means that it is relatively low in carbohydrates  Sweet potatoes are a good alternative to ordinary ones, plus you can substitute cauliflower rice for ordinary rice, courgetti-spaghetti for ordinary spaghetti etc.  Worth having a browse of the food and recipes section for some ideas


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## Ljc (Aug 10, 2017)

MikeTurin said:


> What is normal diet advice?


Most likely it's this  much hated Eatwell guide
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Goodfood/Pages/the-eatwell-guide.aspx


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## MikeTurin (Aug 10, 2017)

Caveat emptor. (literally)
About wholegrain bread I've watched a TV transmission that explained that not all what is marketed ad whole wheat is made only with whole wheat.
The packaged bread is full of preservatives, and also a lot of freshly baked bread is made with added ingredients, in dome case sugar and glucose. 
Some bread is made with refined wheat and some rye added.
Because I don't eat a lot of bread, actually, I prefer to go to a posh bakery and buy their whole what bread instead to go to the supermarket, even if the price is more than double.

One of my pet peeves is about *full fat* fizzy drink.
I sometimes drink something full fat





And it's an healthy drink, provided you count the calories (500 kCal/litre by the way)

On the other hand fizzy drinks with added sugar are to avoid, especially because they're a non-food.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 10, 2017)

Thanks for all the comments and advice, it is most appreciated.


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## pav (Aug 10, 2017)

It's a shame that the nurse is stuck in the old ways and not testing friendly, one day these people will wake up that it costs less to test than pay the price of complications at a later date. 

It's also good you are in a position that you can self fund, hopefully with the meter,  carbs and cal book, and your food diary you will be off to a great start. Strange thing is some DN's say a food diary is not important and yet when I went to the hospital DN the first thing they asked for was a food diary.


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## the blue wildebeest (Aug 10, 2017)

This forum has made me aware of the widespread variation in attitudes within the NHS, and that I am extremely fortunate to get test strips for the Glucomen Areo on prescription, as one GP accepted that it was of value. This seems to be contrary to the opinion of the surgery DSN, who was uninterested in any discussion, and considers that I do not need to test "so often", although the information has been invaluable to me in identifying foods to avoid, and circumstances in which BGs may be unexpectedly higher or lower. I have been able to reduce Metformin, and may be able to do without.
The Glucomen Areo was given to me at the Diabetes Clinic without any question... perhaps it is policy there. (The HBa1c of 125 may have been a factor.) A year later, and the HBa1c of 43 did not persuade the surgery DSN that I may have some understanding of the value of lchf, and is as patronising as ever. (A dietitian who has specialised for four years was entirely different in attitude, and is aware of the disparity in advice now given.)


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## Bubbsie (Aug 10, 2017)

the blue wildebeest said:


> This forum has made me aware of the widespread variation in attitudes within the NHS, and that I am extremely fortunate to get test strips for the Glucomen Areo on prescription, as one GP accepted that it was of value. This seems to be contrary to the opinion of the surgery DSN, who was uninterested in any discussion, and considers that I do not need to test "so often", although the information has been invaluable to me in identifying foods to avoid, and circumstances in which BGs may be unexpectedly higher or lower. I have been able to reduce Metformin, and may be able to do without.
> The Glucomen Areo was given to me at the Diabetes Clinic without any question... perhaps it is policy there. (The HBa1c of 125 may have been a factor.) A year later, and the HBa1c of 43 did not persuade the surgery DSN that I may have some understanding of the value of lchf, and is as patronising as ever. (A dietitian who has specialised for four years was entirely different in attitude, and is aware of the disparity in advice now given.)


I got the same nonsense from the DSN at my surgery...saw her once...she said I was obsessive for testing my blood sugar...although happy to accept my control was 'excellent'...lord knows how she thought I'd achieved that...tiresome...outdated...archaic attitude.


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## the blue wildebeest (Aug 10, 2017)

We can always hope to educate them...


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## gwalmsley (Aug 10, 2017)

Maybe they think the 'average' member of the public won't use the meter, or won't do it right so it would be wasted money, or just can't cope with the complexity of it. Who knows.

Or maybe we are just the 'difficult' ones who won't do as we are told


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## Bubbsie (Aug 10, 2017)

Ljc said:


> Most likely it's this  much hated Eatwell guide
> http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Goodfood/Pages/the-eatwell-guide.aspx


Lin...just had a look at the link to refresh my memory...if I'd stuck with that guidance...sure I'd be in big trouble by now.


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## mikeyB (Aug 10, 2017)

If I had that guidance _I'd_ be in trouble, and I'm T1


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## Ljc (Aug 10, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Maybe they think the 'average' member of the public won't use the meter, or won't do it right so it would be wasted money, or just can't cope with the complexity of it. Who knows.
> 
> Or maybe we are just the 'difficult' ones who won't do as we are told


Um .... when you joined us .... did .. you realise you'd just .... joined a  _shhh such a _band of rebels .


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## Ljc (Aug 10, 2017)

Bubbsie said:


> Lin...just had a look at the link to refresh my memory...if I'd stuck with that guidance...sure I'd be in big trouble by now.


I know it's awful isn't it. I hope it didn't make you pass out with shock.


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## Ljc (Aug 10, 2017)

mikeyB said:


> If I had that guidance _I'd_ be in trouble, and I'm T1


Here's a glass of sparkling water to help with the shock.


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## Drummer (Aug 10, 2017)

For me to keep my blood glucose in the normal range I find that I need to avoid all grain, potatoes, sugars of all kinds - when I wanted to lose weight I had to keep below 100gm of carb per day even when I was exercising every day. 
Now I can eat the Lidl protein rolls, but no other bread or baked goods - and nothing high carb no matter what the colour or lack of processing, it all converts to glucose


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## gwalmsley (Aug 11, 2017)

Meter has just arrived, now to read the instruction book....


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## Ljc (Aug 11, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Meter has just arrived, now to read the instruction book....


Thought you might like a few Tips.
Try starting with the second lowest setting on the lancing devise ,if this doesn't work try the next setting up.
Wash hands in nice hot water. This helps blood flow as well as cleaning fingers of stuff that can give higher readings, it's nothing to do with germs.
Some people shake their hand to get the blood flowing
Use the sides *not the pads *of your finger, not too close to the nail 
once you've (very technical term here) bodged your finger wait a few seconds before squeezing a drop of the red stuff out.
It's perfect normal to have problems at first but you'll get there.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 11, 2017)

Thanks for the advice.

Needed to set the lancing device to 3 to get above a microscopic spot of blood, maybe I am thick skinned 

Didn't hurt using the device at all, but stinging slightly now. Sure I will get used to it. I used the side of my fingertip.



Ljc said:


> Thought you might like a few Tips.
> Try starting with the second lowest setting on the lancing devise ,if this doesn't work try the next setting up.
> Wash hands in nice hot water. This helps blood flow as well as cleaning fingers of stuff that can give higher readings, it's nothing to do with germs.
> Some people shake their hand to get the blood flowing
> ...


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## gwalmsley (Aug 11, 2017)

Just done my first test and it came back at 6.6! Last had something to eat (a small Nero's latte) at 10am.


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## grovesy (Aug 11, 2017)

Good result.


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## Ljc (Aug 11, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Just done my first test and it came back at 6.6! Last had something to eat (a small Nero's latte) at 10am.


That's not bad at all. 
Glad yo managed it without too much trouble. It does get easier with practice.


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## Mark Parrott (Aug 11, 2017)

Hi & welcome to the forum.  I was diagnosed around 18 months ago now, & i'm managing through diet only.  I have completely shocked my GP surgery with my excellent results, & they could be taking me off the diabetic register if my blood results are still good in October. My medical record actually now has a question mark against diabetes!   And this is all down to testing & following the great advice on this forum.  Sounds like you're heading in the right direction.  Oh, & check out the recipe section on this forum.  There are some great recipes posted by others (and me).


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## gwalmsley (Aug 11, 2017)

Just done a test 1 hour after eating lunch (40g of carbs) and it is 8.6.

Doing the 2 hours after test is going to be a bit of a struggle as I will be sat in the cinema


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## the blue wildebeest (Aug 11, 2017)

Ljc said:


> Um .... when you joined us .... did .. you realise you'd just .... joined a  _shhh such a _band of rebels .


We  are legion!...

I do think that those who find their way to this forum may be more disposed to question received opinion, and have experiences which lead us to do so. I have also encountered a number of people who simply refuse to take any action to control or manage, including a man I have known for some years who told me that "the State" can take care of him when he needs it (!), and the "healthy eater" who believes that  yogurt (with a Cadbury's Flake in it) is part of a suitable diet. (He refuses HBa1c's.)


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## the blue wildebeest (Aug 11, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Just done a test 1 hour after eating lunch (40g of carbs) and it is 8.6.
> 
> Doing the 2 hours after test is going to be a bit of a struggle as I will be sat in the cinema



"Atomic Blonde"?


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## Ljc (Aug 11, 2017)

the blue wildebeest said:


> We  are legion!...
> 
> I do think that those who find their way to this forum may be more disposed to question received opinion, and have experiences which lead us to do so. I have also encountered a number of people who simply refuse to take any action to control or manage, including a man I have known for some years who told me that "the State" can take care of him when he needs it (!), and the "healthy eater" who believes that  yogurt (with a Cadbury's Flake in it) is part of a suitable diet. (He refuses HBa1c's.)


You're right there  people who come here whether they post or not are more motivated to try to control their diabetes better.  
I know people here have and are helping me an awful lot.


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## MikeTurin (Aug 11, 2017)

the blue wildebeest said:


> I do think that those who find their way to this forum may be more disposed to question received opinion, and have experiences which lead us to do so.


English is not my native language, as you can easily guess.
I've landed to this forum because I was seeking informations and the ones that doctors gave me I find were insufficient. Resources in Italian on the web about diabetes are scarce and the only Italian forum was hut down some times ago.
I'm sure that a lot of people are in a refusal state and even if given more information, they will refuse that information. I don't know what percentage of people with diabetes are willing to change their lifestyle or exchange opinions with other people to have tips and tricks.

Because it's hard and there's the easier path to stick the head under the sand.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 11, 2017)

the blue wildebeest said:


> "Atomic Blonde"?



Yes

Managed to do the test (3 strips later) before going in, 7.6.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 11, 2017)

Stats for this evening. They appear to be within the NICE recommended levels. 

Before Dinner 6.0
1 hour 8.7
2 hour 8.0

The 2 hour reading was nearly 10 until I remembered to wash my hands again after handling a bottle of lime juice then got 8 instead


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## Mark Parrott (Aug 11, 2017)

I once got a too high reading after stroking my cat.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 12, 2017)

So, got up this morning and tested, got a 6.0. Had a breakfast of 2 slices of low carb wholemeal bread and 4 turkey rashers (no carbs). 

Just done 3 hours of kayaking, done a test and now 5.9 ☹️

Must admit I was hoping for a bigger drop. Is this normal after exercise? According to my exercise tracker burned 1,300 calories.


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## Mark Parrott (Aug 12, 2017)

I wouldn't worry about those figures.  Perfectly within range.  Quite often BG will go up straight after exercise but come down later.


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## Northerner (Aug 12, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> So, got up this morning and tested, got a 6.0. Had a breakfast of 2 slices of low carb wholemeal bread and 4 turkey rashers (no carbs).
> 
> Just done 3 hours of kayaking, done a test and now 5.9 ☹️
> 
> Must admit I was hoping for a bigger drop. Is this normal after exercise? According to my exercise tracker burned 1,300 calories.


No, I'd say that's a good result  Clearly, you are used to kayaking if you can do 3 hours of it, and your levels are less likely to fall, or even fluctuate, when you are engaged in a familiar activity that your body is used to - you are using your muscles efficiently because they are trained. The same happens to me when running because I have been a runner for 30+ years  Also, you are at a good level at 5.9 - your body has two mechanisms it uses to try and keep blood sugar levels stable: insulin (produced by the beta cells of the pancreas) and glucagon (produced by the alpha cells of the pancreas). Detecting the levels of glucose in your blood, your body either releases more insulin, to bring levels down, or more glucagon, which stimulates the liver to release more of its stores of glucose and thus raise levels. This balancing act works extremely well in people without diabetes, so that your levels stay in a very tight range of between about 3.3-6.0 mmol/l. When you have diabetes, the mechanism doesn't work quite so well - with Type 2 the insulin may not be able to quite do the job of lowering the blood glucose due to insulin-resistance in the body's cells. With Type 1 diabetes, the beta cells don't produce any insulin, so it has to be injected/pumped, and this is relatively crude and unpredictable compared to a healthy body.

Well, you did ask!  Hope I haven't made things more confusing for you - the bottom line is, your levels are fine


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## gwalmsley (Aug 12, 2017)

No, not confusing, information is good. 

Thanks for the post and confirming numbers are as expected



Northerner said:


> No, I'd say that's a good result  Clearly, you are used to kayaking if you can do 3 hours of it, and your levels are less likely to fall, or even fluctuate, when you are engaged in a familiar activity that your body is used to - you are using your muscles efficiently because they are trained. The same happens to me when running because I have been a runner for 30+ years  Also, you are at a good level at 5.9 - your body has two mechanisms it uses to try and keep blood sugar levels stable: insulin (produced by the beta cells of the pancreas) and glucagon (produced by the alpha cells of the pancreas). Detecting the levels of glucose in your blood, your body either releases more insulin, to bring levels down, or more glucagon, which stimulates the liver to release more of its stores of glucose and thus raise levels. This balancing act works extremely well in people without diabetes, so that your levels stay in a very tight range of between about 3.3-6.0 mmol/l. When you have diabetes, the mechanism doesn't work quite so well - with Type 2 the insulin may not be able to quite do the job of lowering the blood glucose due to insulin-resistance in the body's cells. With Type 1 diabetes, the beta cells don't produce any insulin, so it has to be injected/pumped, and this is relatively crude and unpredictable compared to a healthy body.
> 
> Well, you did ask!  Hope I haven't made things more confusing for you - the bottom line is, your levels are fine


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## PinkGrapefruit (Aug 12, 2017)

I may get corrected for talking nonsense, but how hydrated you are also affects your BS. After 3hrs of kayak I would imagine you might be a little dehydrated, and a higher reading can result as the BS is in higher concentration. I read 6 around the middle of the day.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 12, 2017)

Good point. I had a litre of lime juice but did finish all that. 

Just done a 2 hour after lunch test and a 5.8! Best reading yet



PinkGrapefruit said:


> I may get corrected for talking nonsense, but how hydrated you are also affects your BS. After 3hrs of kayak I would imagine you might be a little dehydrated, and a higher reading can result as the BS is in higher concentration. I read 6 around the middle of the day.


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## Chief Cook Bottle Washer (Aug 12, 2017)

As the partner of gwalmsley - i must say that food labels are a nightmare due to lack of consistency - national standardisation of this should be a legal requirement - is the organisation campaigning for a change in the law ?


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## Ljc (Aug 13, 2017)

I'm not sure,  @Northerner should be able to find out.

Food shopping is a nightmare at first , it takes blooming ages having to read all those labels doesn't it.
I just check the 'Total number of carbs' and ignore everything else even the 'Total of which is sugars' ,as they're already included in the Total carbohydrates. I also ignore the traffic light system on the front.


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## MikeTurin (Aug 13, 2017)

Traffic light system doesn't tell the truth especially due the "fat is bad" ideology.
I tend to buy unprocessed food thad doesn't have a label, if this is possible, and to read the ingredients.
Plain unsweetened yoghurt doesn't change a lot between brands, and the sames applies for quality cheeses. Real Parmigiano Reggiano and Grana Padano shouldn't change a lot between brands. 
Hams are another story because even genuine Parma ham changes the fat and salt content while aging and because in prepackaged from is allowed to add preservatives.


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## Jimjan (Aug 14, 2017)

Hi gwalmsley,
As I'm newly diagnosed too I'm also feeing over whelmed and confused!


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## gwalmsley (Aug 14, 2017)

Welcome to the forum!

I have found the people on here to be absolutely fabulous. They are very supportive and full of good advice. Hopefully you have found the discussions above to be useful?

Graham



Jimjan said:


> Hi gwalmsley,
> As I'm newly diagnosed too I'm also feeing over whelmed and confused!


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## Ditto (Aug 14, 2017)

Hello JimJan and Chief Cook. 

I don't find food shopping a nightmare. I just avoid packaging. Needs must with cottage cheese though, but most good things don't come in a package.  They put packaging on stuff that doesn't even need it, cluttering up the Earth and the Pacific, that huge swirling rubbish dump worries me big time. Why put mushrooms in cellophane and a tray that won't degrade for 100s of years if ever. Agh.


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## Maz2 (Aug 14, 2017)

I agree reading the labels is a nightmare at first but have got used to it now. I tend to buy more or less the same things each week.

When I am eating out I generally go for salads and ask for the dressing separate or I can manage without one although I do appreciate everyone cannot.  I have got used now to looking at menus and deciding it might be better not to choose about 80 percent of the things.  I tend to go for fish without batter, or chicken and I ask for extra veg instead of potatoes.  Most places will let you have them. I was out last Friday with ex work colleagues (retired a few months back) and I asked for the chips to be left off and asked for the side dish of veg which was an additional cost but they did not charge because I had not had the chips.

Sometimes I will have a dessert but have now got used to going without.  one of my friends who we eat out with is a long-term diabetic and another friend is pre-diabetic so I am sometimes in good company.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 14, 2017)

At work today, hunting for something to eat and decided on a brown baguette with Salmon, Brie and Rocket... bad decision... Before eating 6.1, 90 minutes later a reading of 11.6! As I eat a lot of salmon it looks like either the bread wasn't as wholemeal as it looked, or brie is right off the menu 

I had been doing so well... 5.7 after my 2 mile walk this morning.

Graham


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## Ljc (Aug 14, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> At work today, hunting for something to eat and decided on a brown baguette with Salmon, Brie and Rocket... bad decision... Before eating 6.1, 90 minutes later a reading of 11.6! As I eat a lot of salmon it looks like either the bread wasn't as wholemeal as it looked, or brie is right off the menu
> 
> I had been doing so well... 5.7 after my 2 mile walk this morning.
> 
> Graham


I think it was more likely to be the brown baguette. Was their a dressing on the salad ?


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## Chief Cook Bottle Washer (Aug 14, 2017)

What a shame after such a good "run" still it's a steep learning curve and your doing fantastic , give yourself a break you have only been diagnosed for a couple of weeks - one mistake is nothing in the scheme of things


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## Maz2 (Aug 14, 2017)

I would have thought it was the bagette too.  I think even wholemeal bread will raise blood sugars temporarily but at least it is better than white. 

Don't think cheese would affect it but maybe depends on the person.


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## Bubbsie (Aug 14, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> At work today, hunting for something to eat and decided on a brown baguette with Salmon, Brie and Rocket... bad decision... Before eating 6.1, 90 minutes later a reading of 11.6! As I eat a lot of salmon it looks like either the bread wasn't as wholemeal as it looked, or brie is right off the menu
> 
> I had been doing so well... 5.7 after my 2 mile walk this morning.
> 
> Graham


I wouldn't worry too much...you're testing...able to identify the spike...it's all about experimenting...like @Ljc says the likely culprit was the baguette...wholemeal gives me a huge spike...I tend to stick to High protein bread...probably best to make yourself something at home to take with you...all a good learning curve.


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## Ljc (Aug 14, 2017)

Chief Cook Bottle Washer said:


> What a shame after such a good "run" still it's a steep learning curve and your doing fantastic , give yourself a break you have only been diagnosed for a couple of weeks - one mistake is nothing in the scheme of things


I totally agree


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## gwalmsley (Aug 14, 2017)

Ljc said:


> I think it was more likely to be the brown baguette. Was their a dressing on the salad ?



Having done a bit of research it must have been the baguette. Next to no carbs in Brie or the Salmon. I estimated the bread content to be about the same as the 2 thick bread slices I have for breakfast, but the carbs must have been a lot higher.  You live and learn (avoiding the canteen bread in the future) and I immediately went out and did a mile walk to burn some of it off. On a train at the moment but I will test again when I get home.

No dressing, just dry rocket leaves.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 14, 2017)

Thanks for everyone's kind words and encouragement.


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## Mark Parrott (Aug 14, 2017)

I was out & about & absolutely starving.  The only place I could find was Gregg's.  Found a chicken roll with wholemeal seeded.  2 hours after I was 9.6!  I was shocked.


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## Martin Canty (Aug 14, 2017)

Mark Parrott said:


> I once got a too high reading after stroking my cat.


Blame the cat, eh Mark


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## gwalmsley (Aug 14, 2017)

Walking the spike off seems to have done the trick, back down to a 5.7


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## stephknits (Aug 14, 2017)

Baguettes are surprisingly carby at 10g per inch!  Although of course the men among us might overestimate the number of inches..


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## gwalmsley (Aug 14, 2017)

stephknits said:


> Baguettes are surprisingly carby at 10g per inch!  Although of course the men among us might overestimate the number of inches..



That may have been my mistake, I just looked at it and guessed at the same amount of bread as 2 thick slices of wholemeal. Being a man I obviously couldn't measure


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## Ralph-YK (Aug 14, 2017)

Mark Parrott said:


> I was out & about & absolutely starving.  The only place I could find was Gregg's.  Found a chicken roll with wholemeal seeded.  2 hours after I was 9.6!  I was shocked.


What was the difference though? What did you start at?


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## gwalmsley (Aug 14, 2017)

Bubbsie said:


> ...I tend to stick to High protein bread...



High protein bread?


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## Mark Parrott (Aug 14, 2017)

Ralph-YK said:


> What was the difference though? What did you start at?


Think it was about 5 3.


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## Mark Parrott (Aug 14, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> High protein bread?


Think Bubbs is referring to the high protein rolls sold at Lidl.


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## Ljc (Aug 14, 2017)

I believe Tesco sell some too but ve never tried it.


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## Bubbsie (Aug 15, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> High protein bread?


Several Brans gwalmsley...I buy


Mark Parrott said:


> Think Bubbs is referring to the high protein rolls sold at Lidl.


Never been able to try those Mark...no Lidl here...using the Tesco high protein bread...Warburton also produce one...althought that is harder formeto source...usually buy that when online shopping.


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## Bubbsie (Aug 15, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> High protein bread?


HI gwalmsley...I use high protein bread...lower in carbs...Tesco produce one...also Warburton have a high protein bread/rolls (usually get this when shopping online...otherwise difficult to find it here)...using the Tesco one  at the moment...comes in two sizes...tastes good too...Burgen Bread is another favourite...but...of course bread can be a bit of a lottery...some here do fine on wholemeal...sour dough...bread made with spelt flour...those are not great for me...always spike my BGs...worth giving the high protein a try.


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## PinkGrapefruit (Aug 15, 2017)

This is why I still don't eat bread :-(



Mark Parrott said:


> I was out & about & absolutely starving.  The only place I could find was Gregg's.  Found a chicken roll with wholemeal seeded.  2 hours after I was 9.6!  I was shocked.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 15, 2017)

Couldn't do any exercise or testing during the day as I was in a meeting on a client site all day. 

Got a Tesco Chicken, Bacon & stuffing on brown sandwich for lunch about 2:30. Just got home and tested and reading 8.6, which seems high over 3 hours later. Label said 48g carb.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 15, 2017)

Panic over!

I was in a rush and washed my hands in the kitchen and dried them on a used tea towel. Result 8.6

Washed hands in bathroom and dried with fresh towel, result 5.6!

Have to be so careful. Moral of this story, don't dry with a used towel then test 



gwalmsley said:


> Couldn't do any exercise or testing during the day as I was in a meeting on a client site all day.
> 
> Got a Tesco Chicken, Bacon & stuffing on brown sandwich for lunch about 2:30. Just got home and tested and reading 8.6, which seems high over 3 hours later. Label said 48g carb.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 16, 2017)

Got a reading of 5.0 just before lunch, very pleased


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## Ljc (Aug 16, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Panic over!
> 
> I was in a rush and washed my hands in the kitchen and dried them on a used tea towel. Result 8.6
> 
> ...



Phew. I've made a similar mistake.


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## Maz2 (Aug 16, 2017)

the blue wildebeest said:


> We  are legion!...
> 
> I do think that those who find their way to this forum may be more disposed to question received opinion, and have experiences which lead us to do so. I have also encountered a number of people who simply refuse to take any action to control or manage, including a man I have known for some years who told me that "the State" can take care of him when he needs it (!), and the "healthy eater" who believes that  yogurt (with a Cadbury's Flake in it) is part of a suitable diet. (He refuses HBa1c's.)


OMG.  I have a friend who was diagnosed a couple of years ago.   We went out for a meal a few months ago and he took his Metformin whilst we were then and then proceeded to have a huge portion of chips, a dessert, a liqueur coffee, then when we got back to his house he had a chocolate liqueur and started on the chocolates.  He said that "the doctors just try to frighten you."  I pointed out that they are not frightening you but telling you what can happen if you do not keep control.  He said that it will be 20 years before he gets complications (he is 65 now) and would worry if he was 20 odd but is not going to make his life a misery at 65.

I was diagnosed pre-diabetic last year and am trying to prevent diabetes.  I don't think my life is a "misery" because I cannot eat loads of carbs and desserts every day and when I go out.  I do have a dessert sometimes when I go out but I am just trying to use some common sense.  I don't see the point in having complications for the sake of it because you can't be bothered.

So many people like my friend Gary have had diabetes for years before they found out and were not given a chance to prevent it so I consider as I have been given a chance I should use it.  Whether it works or not is another story but I will continue trying.

Have started testing as know from here that everyone reacts differently to the same food.  Not done it this week though as have a stinking cold and cough and read that it can mean high readings sometimes due to the body fighting viruses.


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## Maz2 (Aug 16, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Having done a bit of research it must have been the baguette. Next to no carbs in Brie or the Salmon. I estimated the bread content to be about the same as the 2 thick bread slices I have for breakfast, but the carbs must have been a lot higher.  You live and learn (avoiding the canteen bread in the future) and I immediately went out and did a mile walk to burn some of it off. On a train at the moment but I will test again when I get home.
> 
> No dressing, just dry rocket leaves.


About bread.  I tried the bread that is in the "recipes" section from Mark Parrott.  Delicious and much lower carb.  Can recommend it.


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## Maz2 (Aug 16, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Panic over!
> 
> I was in a rush and washed my hands in the kitchen and dried them on a used tea towel. Result 8.6
> 
> ...


That is interesting as I was using a "used" tea towel at the weekend.  Must remember about using a new one as here is a considerable difference in your readings.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 16, 2017)

So following my 5.0 reading at lunch time, I had a quite 'carby' dinner (a ready meal that needed using up - I know, I know) that was 73g of Carbs. Reading before was 6.0, 1 hour 7.6, 2 hour 8.5, so all within the NICE guideline numbers, so quite pleased with it.

I am finding that I may test at 5 something before going to bed, but then be 6-7 in the morning. Is this normal? I would have thought the number would go down while sleeping as you are 'fasting' or is something else going on?

Thanks once again for everybody's support and information.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 16, 2017)

I was sat next to someone at work on Monday who had just be diagnosed as pre-diabetes (it is all hot desking so get different people every day). I was explaining how I was coping with it and all the great advice and support I was getting here. Her response was pretty much:

I am not much of a cook, I couldn't do that, I eat out or get a takeaway every night
I am going to cut back on the drinking and only do it during the week (so 5 days a week, not 7)
I love my pasta, couldn't give that up
My guess is soon she will be going from pre-diabetes to diabetes and wondering why.



Maz2 said:


> OMG.  I have a friend who was diagnosed a couple of years ago.   We went out for a meal a few months ago and he took his Metformin whilst we were then and then proceeded to have a huge portion of chips, a dessert, a liqueur coffee, then when we got back to his house he had a chocolate liqueur and started on the chocolates.  He said that "the doctors just try to frighten you."  I pointed out that they are not frightening you but telling you what can happen if you do not keep control.  He said that it will be 20 years before he gets complications (he is 65 now) and would worry if he was 20 odd but is not going to make his life a misery at 65.
> 
> I was diagnosed pre-diabetic last year and am trying to prevent diabetes.  I don't think my life is a "misery" because I cannot eat loads of carbs and desserts every day and when I go out.  I do have a dessert sometimes when I go out but I am just trying to use some common sense.  I don't see the point in having complications for the sake of it because you can't be bothered.
> 
> ...


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## Ljc (Aug 17, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> So following my 5.0 reading at lunch time, I had a quite 'carby' dinner (a ready meal that needed using up - I know, I know) that was 73g of Carbs. Reading before was 6.0, 1 hour 7.6, 2 hour 8.5, so all within the NICE guideline numbers, so quite pleased with it.
> 
> I am finding that I may test at 5 something before going to bed, but then be 6-7 in the morning. Is this normal? I would have thought the number would go down while sleeping as you are 'fasting' or is something else going on?
> Thanks once again for everybody's support and information.



Hi.  Do you test immediately after getting up or  say after a shower or loo trip, if so try testing when you wake up. 
Or It could be Dawn phenomenon (DP) when our helpful liver  Starts trickling out glucose preparing us for a day of hunting and gathering. With some people it does it whether we need it or not 
Some on here suffer feet on floor syndrome , this is when you sit up in bed put your feet on the floor and you BGs shoots up , possibly for the same reason ad DP. 
Some of us are so lucky  and have both


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## Northerner (Aug 17, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> I was sat next to someone at work on Monday who had just be diagnosed as pre-diabetes (it is all hot desking so get different people every day). I was explaining how I was coping with it and all the great advice and support I was getting here. Her response was pretty much:
> 
> I am not much of a cook, I couldn't do that, I eat out or get a takeaway every night
> I am going to cut back on the drinking and only do it during the week (so 5 days a week, not 7)
> ...


I think this is the problem with a lot of people - they are given the warning but don't take it seriously, and claim they could 'never' do things or stop eating certain things  They think it can never happen to them, but this is one of the insidious things about diabetes - it creeps up on you slowly so there's no sudden 'shock' to the system, except maybe when a diagnosis comes along, and then they think 'why didn't I heed the warnings?' Or maybe not, and continue as though nothing has changed 

The frustrating thing is that diabetes is one of the few potentially really serious conditions that people can take a very active part in managing - as you are doing - and it doesn't mean giving up everything you like to eat, drink and do, it just takes some knowledge and application. Human beings are very adaptable, but only if they decide to change


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## Bubbsie (Aug 17, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> So following my 5.0 reading at lunch time, I had a quite 'carby' dinner (a ready meal that needed using up - I know, I know) that was 73g of Carbs. Reading before was 6.0, 1 hour 7.6, 2 hour 8.5, so all within the NICE guideline numbers, so quite pleased with it.
> 
> I am finding that I may test at 5 something before going to bed, but then be 6-7 in the morning. Is this normal? I would have thought the number would go down while sleeping as you are 'fasting' or is something else going on?
> 
> Thanks once again for everybody's support and information.


gwalmsey...the waking figures are usually the last to 'come down'...I now have a small snack before bed...no carbs...a little protein...handful of nuts (walnuts mainly)...even taken to having the odd elicit KitKat (wouldn't recommend that)...working for me so far...helps convince my liver it doesn't need to pump out extra glucose to get me ready for the day ahead...since I have a little energy reserved...may not work for everyone...but...worth a try.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 17, 2017)

Hi Lin,

After getting up, shower, dressed etc. but before breakfast. 

I will try in the morning before getting out of bed 



Ljc said:


> Hi.  Do you test immediately after getting up or  say after a shower or loo trip, if so try testing when you wake up.
> Or It could be Dawn phenomenon (DP) when our helpful liver  Starts trickling out glucose preparing us for a day of hunting and gathering. With some people it does it whether we need it or not
> Some on here suffer feet on floor syndrome , this is when you sit up in bed put your feet on the floor and you BGs shoots up , possibly for the same reason ad DP.
> Some of us are so lucky  and have both


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## Maz2 (Aug 17, 2017)

Northerner said:


> I think this is the problem with a lot of people - they are given the warning but don't take it seriously, and claim they could 'never' do things or stop eating certain things  They think it can never happen to them, but this is one of the insidious things about diabetes - it creeps up on you slowly so there's no sudden 'shock' to the system, except maybe when a diagnosis comes along, and then they think 'why didn't I heed the warnings?' Or maybe not, and continue as though nothing has changed
> 
> The frustrating thing is that diabetes is one of the few potentially really serious conditions that people can take a very active part in managing - as you are doing - and it doesn't mean giving up everything you like to eat, drink and do, it just takes some knowledge and application. Human beings are very adaptable, but only if they decide to change


I entirely agree with you Northerner.  I have a friend who, to be fair, has diabetes in her family, so has a genetic load to start with.  However, she has been diagnosed pre-diabetic (hba1c 47).  We sometimes go out to lunch as I get free coffee/tea and cake from John Lewis from time to time.  You can just take the beverage and don't have to have cake if you don't want to.  Anyway, we went the other week and she was just back from a cruise.  I decided not to have a cake as I had had a couple of desserts whilst on hols.  She said she had been naughty on the cruise so might as well carry on and had a huge Danish pastry.  We then went to lunch elsewhere and she had a load of sandwiches, although in fairness, she did not realise how much bread there would be when she ordered it as it was a big helping 

A colleague of mine from where I used to work before I retired was also diagnosed pre-diabetic a few months back.  She has had to see a cardiologist about problems too and her blood pressure is too high. She is very overweight.  She said she could not understand it as three years ago her numbers were higher than now and she was told she was fine.  I told her that they have brought the levels down which is a good thing as people are alerted earlier.   My own GP admitted to me that a few years ago they would not bothered about my numbers, they would have lt  through, but not now.

When I left my job the aforementioned colleague was still eating huge white baguettes at lunchtime and dipping into the biscuits and chocolates which were always all over the place in the offices.  

No-one loved fresh and dried fruit like I did.  I ate it until it came out of my ears. I loved my sandwiches and jacket potatoes for lunch and a dessert everytime I went out for a meal.   As soon as I had the pre-diabetic diagnosis I soon decided to alter my eating habits.  Whether it will work remains to be seen but I am going to have  a good try.  I think if you are given a chance you need to grasp it with both hands and at least try.


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## Mark Parrott (Aug 18, 2017)

My brother, who is also Type 2, eats what he likes, yet his HbA1c is always within a good range (was 42 last check).  He is a very heavy drinker (Whisky, mainly) which I think, along with his meds is causing his BG to plummet.  After food, he is often in double figures, so his HbA1c is only showing the average.  He also believes there is nothing you can do about diabetes, whatever you eat.  He thinks my diet is stupid & I will kill myself.


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## Drummer (Aug 18, 2017)

I don't understand why the colour of the carbs is relevant - makes no difference to me at all - if it is a carb it elevates my blood glucose.
The only sort of bread I can eat is the Lidl protein rolls, because they are low carb at about 9 grams each - ordinary wholemeal is far higher and not a good choice as far as my numbers are concerned.It might digest more slowly - so higher numbers for longer - not good.


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## Maz2 (Aug 18, 2017)

Mark Parrott said:


> My brother, who is also Type 2, eats what he likes, yet his HbA1c is always within a good range (was 42 last check).  He is a very heavy drinker (Whisky, mainly) which I think, along with his meds is causing his BG to plummet.  After food, he is often in double figures, so his HbA1c is only showing the average.  He also believes there is nothing you can do about diabetes, whatever you eat.  He thinks my diet is stupid & I will kill myself.


I suppose all we can do really is do what we feel is best for us and if others don't want to bother I suppose no-one can force them.  It must be frustrating for you though. 

I know when I was first told I was pre-diabetic my colleagues at work would make comments about my not eating all the time like they did - i.e. chocs, biscuits, cake day in and day out, and thought I was mad because "I wasn't even diabetic."  I kept trying to explain that was the whole point i.e.I had been given a warning before I got there and I was trying to avoid it.  No one has any idea, not even my GP, whether I will avoid it or not but I would like to think I had tried. 

Does diabetes run in the family Mark as you say your brother has it?  If so, you have done remarkably well to get your levels down to what they are.


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## Mark Parrott (Aug 19, 2017)

I believe it does run in my family.  I wouldn't say it was difficult getting to where I am now, but I do miss pigging out on cherry bakewells.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 20, 2017)

Tested before getting out of bed for the last few days and still showing 6-7 so I guess I have Dawn Phenomenon 

Not much I can do about that but at least it is in the 4-7 'normal' range. 

On the plus side not had another spike since 'baguette gate' and generally staying below 8.6 after meals. 

I may be starting to get the hang of it 

Graham



Ljc said:


> Hi.  Do you test immediately after getting up or  say after a shower or loo trip, if so try testing when you wake up.
> Or It could be Dawn phenomenon (DP) when our helpful liver  Starts trickling out glucose preparing us for a day of hunting and gathering. With some people it does it whether we need it or not
> Some on here suffer feet on floor syndrome , this is when you sit up in bed put your feet on the floor and you BGs shoots up , possibly for the same reason ad DP.
> Some of us are so lucky  and have both


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## Bubbsie (Aug 20, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Tested before getting out of bed for the last few days and still showing 6-7 so I guess I have Dawn Phenomenon
> 
> Not much I can do about that but at least it is in the 4-7 'normal' range.
> 
> ...


It takes a while gwalmsley...particularly getting those waking numbers down...they are usually the last to come down...taken me just over a year to get my waking numbers to what I consider  reasonable...but...I did it at my own pace...slowly...have you tried a small snack before bed...a little protein...let that liver believe it doesn't need the extra burst of energy for you to start your day in the mornings...that you have enough in reserve...it's working for me at the moment.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 20, 2017)

Spent a day out on the water with friends, Burger (no bun), coleslaw, potato salad, salad and sweet potato fries for lunch, got home and BS is 5.2! Result.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 21, 2017)

Ok, back to confused again 

After the baguette issue last week I took my own lunch which was a wholemeal wrap (which I have had before without issues) with salad leaves, roast beef and feta. All in the content as under 3g of carbs and the wrap was 30.5g of carbs. 

Test before eating 5.2, 1 hour later 10.5! 2 hours later 9.5!  4.5 hours later and a brisk 1.3m walk, back to 5.2. 

Anyone know why a wrap which I have had before would suddenly spike today?

Thanks

Graham


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## pav (Aug 21, 2017)

It does it with me, eating the same food one day levels are normal the next time they sky rocket. Had some plain naan bread with a curry and later levels were in the 5.0's next time as a repeat test they were in the 17.0's. Depends on how well my pancreas is working or how good or bad the meds are performing. Naan bread is now off the menu, pity really as a treat with a curry they were nice.


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## Drummer (Aug 22, 2017)

The wrap is over 30 gm of carb - more than some people can eat in a day and it is made from highly concentrated but 'empty' starches. 
You were lucky not to see similar numbers the first time - you got away with it somehow, once, but I avoid all cereals as they spike my BG without fail. You are also racking up the carbs you eat with potato and sweet potato - highly concentrated and easily digested, and they push back any progress made, filling up reserves and storing up problems for the future.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 22, 2017)

Ok, now more confused than ever. I thought the general guidance was 150g of Carbs per day (up to 50g per meal)?

"The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for minimum carbohydrate intake, as set by the Institute of Medicine's Food and Nutrition Board, is *130 grams *per day. This is the level which dietitians are taught to instruct people never to go below "in order to maintain brain function.""

The wrap was wholemeal which should slow it down (or am I wrong on that?) 



Drummer said:


> The wrap is over 30 gm of carb - more than some people can eat in a day and it is made from highly concentrated but 'empty' starches.
> You were lucky not to see similar numbers the first time - you got away with it somehow, once, but I avoid all cereals as they spike my BG without fail. You are also racking up the carbs you eat with potato and sweet potato - highly concentrated and easily digested, and they push back any progress made, filling up reserves and storing up problems for the future.


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## Drummer (Aug 22, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Ok, now more confused than ever. I thought the general guidance was 150g of Carbs per day (up to 50g per meal)?
> 
> "The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for minimum carbohydrate intake, as set by the Institute of Medicine's Food and Nutrition Board, is *130 grams *per day. This is the level which dietitians are taught to instruct people never to go below "in order to maintain brain function.""
> 
> The wrap was wholemeal which should slow it down (or am I wrong on that?)



I don't know where they got their information from - there is no requirement for carbs in the diet.
People such as the Inuit lived without carbs in their diet, and lived well. 
The brain functions better on ketones than on glucose according to people who bothered to check.
When I was trying to lose weight on Atkins I stopped losing weight at 80 gm of carb a day, so I'd have been in trouble trying to eat 150 gm - far safer, now I am diabetic to eat to my meter, any foods which spike me have been removed from my menu or greatly reduced in serving size so as to keep my BG down. 
Eating fibre with carbs might help keep your cholesterol down - and it might slow digestion, though it is unlikely - amylase is in the saliva and so as soon as the starch is in your mouth it is being acted upon and you are absorbing the sugars. I can accept that the fibre increases the time you are exposed to the sugars in the food, but you still get the whole lot eventually.


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## Maz2 (Aug 22, 2017)

My GP advised max 120g per day when I was diagnosed pre-diabetic last year.  I suppose it depends too on what sort.  I don't think it would be a good idea to have 120 or 150 a day of high glycaemic index carbs but I suppose if they were lower glycaemic it may not be too bad.  My GP felt the diet should be balanced not cut out any particular type of food completely.


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## Drummer (Aug 22, 2017)

The low carb diet doesn't cut out any particular type of food completely, but using a blood glucose meter really shows just how bad the modern diet is for those unable to cope with it.
A balanced diet sounds really positive, something to aim for and feel good achieving. Unfortunately it is anything but equal to my requirements.


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## Maz2 (Aug 22, 2017)

I suppose this is the trouble Drummer.  As I have read so many times on here "no one diet is suitable for everyone."   The Optometrist I see at my Optician for my routine eye tests swears by the high fat low carb diet (he is not diabetic).  he is quite a bit younger than me and I explained to him that, whilst I do have some fat, I cannot bring myself to have high fat everything as I lived through the "low fat" era which I have read has now been debunked. When you have heard nothing but that for years it is very difficult to set it aside.  I try to do a mix and am now testing to see what foods are best for me.  What has surprised me is that it seems that I don't seem to cope with sausage.  I can cope with porridge at the moment although I know some forum members cannot.  It just goes to show we have to decide what is best for us as individuals.

The modern diet is a disaster for most people I think one way or another.  Far too much highly processed foods.


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## Drummer (Aug 22, 2017)

I get sausages from the old fashioned butcher around the corner - and also meat, I buy hogget, which is a well grown lamb, as it is not as fatty as lamb. The sausages are expensive, compared to those from a supermarket, but they are firstly delicious and secondly, not full of carbs.
The 'fat is bad' information is where the present epidemic of obesity and higher mortality from 'new' diseases began.


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## pav (Aug 22, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Ok, now more confused than ever. I thought the general guidance was 150g of Carbs per day (up to 50g per meal)?
> 
> "The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for minimum carbohydrate intake, as set by the Institute of Medicine's Food and Nutrition Board, is *130 grams *per day. This is the level which dietitians are taught to instruct people never to go below "in order to maintain brain function.""
> 
> The wrap was wholemeal which should slow it down (or am I wrong on that?)



On the EXPERT course for type 2's we were told that 135g of carbs per day, but they are living in the past, trouble is some DN's and dietitians still believe it and push diabetics towards this and the eat well plate  , The up to date thinking is the is no need to have that many carbs and the more up to speed DN's and dietitians agree and promote a better understanding of what is needed. Just a pity I did not find out what the last DN I saw had in her mind as she discharged me from hospital care


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## Robin (Aug 23, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> The wrap was wholemeal which should slow it down (or am I wrong on that?)


The problem with 'wholemeal' anything, is that it can still be quite refined, or contain white flour as well, to make it less heavy. I avoid it, it always gets into my bloodstream faster than my insulin. I usually eat Burgen, or something home made with rye flour and seeds in it, which seem to suit me better. It's all a question of trying things out to see what your particular body can tolerate.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 23, 2017)

Hi Robin. Thanks for your reply.

Just had a look at the Burgen Soya & Linseed bread, and it looks like it is 11.8g carbs per slice. Bread wise I am currently eating the Hovis Low Carb bread which is 9.9g carbs per slice. Is there something in the Burgen which makes it better for diabetics (slows absorption for example) or is it purely the carbs number?

I was reading an article yesterday regarding net carbs, saying you should subtract the fibre number from the total carbs number to get the actual amount of carbs your body will use. So that brings the Burgen down to 7.5 and the Hovis to 4.4 if I have my maths right.

Edit: Just looked at the numbers for the wraps again, and I think I can see the issue. Each wrap is 30.5g of carbs, but only 2.8g fibre so a net figure of 27.7g.

Graham




Robin said:


> The problem with 'wholemeal' anything, is that it can still be quite refined, or contain white flour as well, to make it less heavy. I avoid it, it always gets into my bloodstream faster than my insulin. I usually eat Burgen, or something home made with rye flour and seeds in it, which seem to suit me better. It's all a question of trying things out to see what your particular body can tolerate.


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## Bubbsie (Aug 23, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Hi Robin. Thanks for your reply.
> 
> Just had a look at the Burgen Soya & Linseed bread, and it looks like it is 11.8g carbs per slice. Bread wise I am currently eating the Hovis Low Carb bread which is 9.9g carbs per slice. Is there something in the Burgen which makes it better for diabetics (slows absorption for example) or is it purely the carbs number?
> 
> ...


I refuse to get confused gwalmsley...my approach now is...try it...test it...good numbers = good result...bad numbers = avoid...not convinced it is totally all about the carbs...it's also about how our bodies react...only way to tell sometimes...try it & see.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 23, 2017)

A very good philosophy I think, and the way to go. The confusion was around the fact that I did the test with the wrap and they appeared to be fine, but the next time it wasn't.



Bubbsie said:


> I refuse to get confused gwalmsley...my approach now is...try it...test it...good numbers = good result...bad numbers = avoid...not convinced it is totally all about the carbs...it's also about how our bodies react...only way to tell sometimes...try it & see.


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## grovesy (Aug 23, 2017)

I believe the net carbs is a US thing, when ours say carbs that is the number. Unfortunately we don't all respond to foods the same some can't tolerate Burgen.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 23, 2017)

Of course it is, why keep it the same so it appears to be simple. Just looked it up and you are correct... so scratch that bit of maths.



grovesy said:


> I believe the net carbs is a US thing, when ours say carbs that is the number. Unfortunately we don't all respond to foods the same some can't tolerate Burgen.


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## Robin (Aug 23, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Edit: Just looked at the numbers for the wraps again, and I think I can see the issue. Each wrap is 30.5g of carbs, but only 2.8g fibre so a net figure of 27.7g.


@grovesy is right, the carb total given on British labels is already net of fibre. Some people tolerate Burgen better because they find the soya flour and the seeds slow down the absorption of the carbs. Fibre does slow down the absorption, but again, Burgen has more, at 4.3g per 100g.


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## pav (Aug 23, 2017)

Think I need to re look at bananas, I used to get away with them when just tuning to yellow, but last time I eat them levels went high for me, going through a phase of reacting very badly to the carb content in food.


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## everydayupsanddowns (Aug 23, 2017)

Personally I think the effect of fibre can be overestimated, and as others have said there is no substitute for a bit of experimentation. Weetabix (as an example) has quite a lot of fibre, but the way the grains are all processed and squashed makes it fairly high GI even on the 'official' tables (which are derived from a fairly small sample and can't really be relied upon).

The other thing that it's important to recognise I think is that the whole business is not really as mechanical and predictable as we would like. There are lots of factors in play, and we are not in control of all of them. The same foods eaten at the same time on 2 different days won't necessarily provide exactly the same results. Even the BG meters themselves are subject to variation.

Essentially, I wouldn't be completely put off eating something by just one rogue result. I'd bank the info and then have another look another time (if it's something you'd like to keep eating of course!). After a couple of tries you can be relatively sure that something really isn't going to agree with you if you always get a massive BG spike, but one off results can be less reliable. No need to keep relentlessly re-testing everything, of course... but it's good not to back yourself into a corner feeling you can't eat anything at all.

And keep opting for brown things, as they will *probably* be better, but you can't rely on that absolutely. And there may well be brown things that act faster than other non-brown things, despite the fibre.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 23, 2017)

Thanks for your comments Mike. 

I guess one question I haven't asked is what constitutes a spike? I have managed to get my number down so I am testing in the 5-6 range before meals, and expecting increased to 8-9 after meals. I am worrying when I see 10 or 11 after meals, am I just being too sensitive?

Thanks

Graham



everydayupsanddowns said:


> Personally I think the effect of fibre can be overestimated, and as others have said there is no substitute for a bit of experimentation. Weetabix (as an example) has quite a lot of fibre, but the way the grains are all processed and squashed makes it fairly high GI even on the 'official' tables (which are derived from a fairly small sample and can't really be relied upon).
> 
> The other thing that it's important to recognise I think is that the whole business is not really as mechanical and predictable as we would like. There are lots of factors in play, and we are not in control of all of them. The same foods eaten at the same time on 2 different days won't necessarily provide exactly the same results. Even the BG meters themselves are subject to variation.
> 
> ...


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## grovesy (Aug 23, 2017)

General Type 2 targets are before meals 4-7and 2 hours after meals less than 8.5.


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## Bubbsie (Aug 24, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Thanks for your comments Mike.
> 
> I guess one question I haven't asked is what constitutes a spike? I have managed to get my number down so I am testing in the 5-6 range before meals, and expecting increased to 8-9 after meals. I am worrying when I see 10 or 11 after meals, am I just being too sensitive?
> 
> ...


gwalmsley we should be aiming for no more that a 2-3mmol rise two hours after eating...you could try testing one hour after eating.....this shows you how high the food you have eaten has raised your BG...the 'optimum peak'....then test after another hour (so two hours in total)..this will demonstrate how your body has reacted to that rise...lowered that peak...I do that occasionally when I have a surprise reaction (higher than expected BGs) to foods I usually tolerate...worth a try?


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## Mark Parrott (Aug 25, 2017)

I did an experiment with my wife at testing after 1 hour.  After eating something I really shouldn't, we both peaked in the 9's after 1 hour, but wifey dropped back to normal levels after 2 hours, whilst I remained higher.  I dropped back down to normal levels after 3 hours.  So I personally don't bother with the 1 hour test anymore.  I think 1 hour testing is worth doing when newly diagnosed though.


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## Chief Cook Bottle Washer (Aug 27, 2017)

Mark Parrott said:


> I did an experiment with my wife at testing after 1 hour.  After eating something I really shouldn't, we both peaked in the 9's after 1 hour, but wifey dropped back to normal levels after 2 hours, whilst I remained higher.  I dropped back down to normal levels after 3 hours.  So I personally don't bother with the 1 hour test anymore.  I think 1 hour testing is worth doing when newly diagnosed though.


I assume you are still talking Blood Testing  if not ! well done to you and your lady wife xxxxxxx


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## gwalmsley (Aug 28, 2017)

Ok, back to confused. Yesterday I did a long distance paddle (over 8 miles) burning over 2500 kcal. As a treat I thought I would try a pizza so went for a medium dominos meteor thin crust (lowest carb numbers) and ate half of it. 

Before 5.6
1 hour 8.8
2 hour 6.7

Excellent I thought, I can have that. 

Today after more exercise (another 1,000 kcal burnt) I decided to have the other half as it had worked out ok yesterday. 

Before 5.0
1 hour 6.8
2 hour 10.2!
4 hour 6.4

So totally confused. Better starting number, exactly the same food, but a huge increase at 2 hours. 

How do you eat to your meter if the same food in very similar circumstances gives totally different results?

Graham


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## Ljc (Aug 29, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Ok, back to confused. Yesterday I did a long distance paddle (over 8 miles) burning over 2500 kcal. As a treat I thought I would try a pizza so went for a medium dominos meteor thin crust (lowest carb numbers) and ate half of it.
> 
> Before 5.6
> 1 hour 8.8
> ...


That's diabetes for you, it can be so b***dy contrary


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## everydayupsanddowns (Aug 29, 2017)

For insulin users pizza is notorious for being slow to hit the system. The fat slows down the metabolism of the carbs. People sometimes have to spread their insulin delivery over several hours to get it to work well.

As @Ljc says - diabetes is just contrary sometimes, and is more art than science.

Looking at it another way... the 8.8 is nearly 9, and the 10.2 is nearly 10. So the results pretty much overlap given the potential errors in SMBG values. Doesn't explain the different timings, but over the years I have tried to encourage myself not to get too focussed on particular hard number limits - because the data feed is really not that precise.

Of course I rarely manage it, and we all have our own limits where we feel a BG result has gone 'too far', and 5 to 10 is a shift of 5 points, which you might consider to be too much for a regular meal. Having said that, deciding to eat pizza 5 days a week is probably not the best plan either - so as an occasional food I'd still count it as usable.

You may have a stricter approach though.


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## gwalmsley (Aug 29, 2017)

Thanks for the post.

I am trying to keep below 8.5 where possible, as that appears to be the approved numbers. Not planning on eating pizza 5 days a week, it was for an occasional treat if I could. The answer to that appears to be 'maybe' 

I was looking for the 'fat effect' to slow down the carbs and prevent the spike. Seemed to work the first day but not the second.

You mention errors in SMBG values... how accurate are the meters supposed to be? I am using the SD Codefree meter as that seemed to be the one recommended the most on the forum.



everydayupsanddowns said:


> For insulin users pizza is notorious for being slow to hit the system. The fat slows down the metabolism of the carbs. People sometimes have to spread their insulin delivery over several hours to get it to work well.
> 
> As @Ljc says - diabetes is just contrary sometimes, and is more art than science.
> 
> ...


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## everydayupsanddowns (Aug 29, 2017)

BG meters have to conform to an updated ISO standard that required them to provide values within 15% of a lab test 95% of the time (provided they are used correctly and there are no contaminants on the skin etc). 5% of the time they can read absolutely anything, allowing for occasional strip errors etc.

This grid shows that (particularly as values rise) there is quite a lot of overlap between neighbouring values. Of course, many meters perform very well, but it is not uncommon to see 2 different results if you test again immediately... and for all the illusion of decimal point accuracy they are really offering more of a 'guide'. They give plenty reliable enough information to guide decision-making, but it pays to remember their limitations if you feel you are getting too stressed by relatively small differences.

You may find this table interesting:


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## gwalmsley (Aug 29, 2017)

Interesting!

That is quite a wide range. So a result of a 10 could actually be an 8.5, and my starting 5 could be anything from a 4 to a 6...




everydayupsanddowns said:


> BG meters have to conform to an updated ISO standard that required them to provide values within 15% of a lab test 95% of the time (provided they are used correctly and there are no contaminants on the skin etc). 5% of the time they can read absolutely anything, allowing for occasional strip errors etc.
> 
> This grid shows that (particularly as values rise) there is quite a lot of overlap between neighbouring values. Of course, many meters perform very well, but it is not uncommon to see 2 different results if you test again immediately... and for all the illusion of decimal point accuracy they are really offering more of a 'guide'. They give plenty reliable enough information to guide decision-making, but it pays to remember their limitations if you feel you are getting too stressed by relatively small differences.
> 
> You may find this table interesting:


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## everydayupsanddowns (Aug 29, 2017)

Strictly speaking, yes. It's why meter instructions always say you should re-check if a reading doesn't match how you are feeling.

Meters provide invaluable information, and we'd be lost without them, but it's important for us not to beat ourselves up over one-off rogue readings which might be a few decimal points off where we'd ideally like them to be.


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## gwalmsley (Sep 22, 2017)

Just got back from the doctors with my first 3 months HBA1c result.... 38!

Cholesterol was a 4.79.

Must be doing something right. Also dropped my weight from 14st 6lb to 12st 8lb so far.

Morning test is now around a 5.8 rather than high 6 or 7, and my 2 hour after eating is generally below 8.5 with some 7s.

A big thank you to everyone on here who has helped me and answered all my possibly stupid questions, and got me going in the right direction with my meter and carbs control.

I am doing the London Bridges walk on the 1st October so I may meet some of you there. £200 raised so far and another week to go!

Thank you once again.

Graham


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## Ditto (Sep 22, 2017)

Fabulous. Well done. :: claps ::


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## Maz2 (Sep 23, 2017)

Well done Graham.  38 is a non diabetic and non pre-diabetic hba1c. You must be thrilled.  Not sure whether once diagnosed you can be told you are non-diabetic.  My Dad in Law's neighbour went from diabetic to normal but her GP said she would still be classed as diabetic but with better control.  I have heard others are taken off the register so not sure whether it depends on the GP.  Others on here may know better.


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## gwalmsley (Sep 23, 2017)

Maz2 said:


> Well done Graham.  38 is a non diabetic and non pre-diabetic hba1c. You must be thrilled.  Not sure whether once diagnosed you can be told you are non-diabetic.  My Dad in Law's neighbour went from diabetic to normal but her GP said she would still be classed as diabetic but with better control.  I have heard others are taken off the register so not sure whether it depends on the GP.  Others on here may know better.



Thank you. 

I am sure if I went back to my 'old ways' then it would shoot back up and is only that low due to strict diet, carb control and exercise.

Is it a case of once a Diabetic always a Diabetic? I am sure one cream cake would have my numbers through the roof


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## Chief Cook Bottle Washer (Sep 23, 2017)

pleased that all the effort and hard work has paid off - got to be ever watchful and keep up the regime - looking forward to our first walking Event together -  raising awareness and funds ( the diet hasn't done me any harm either  )


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## Mark Parrott (Sep 23, 2017)

Well done.  I'm afraid once a diabetic, always a diabetic.  My last two HbA1c's were both 35.  My GP & DSN has never seen any diabetic get non diabetic figures.  If I stay below 42 when I get tested next month, I will be taken off the diabetic register.  I know by testing my BG that I am still diabetic, but now i'm back within range, I find occasional treats don't have any long term effects.


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## Ljc (Sep 23, 2017)

gwalmsley said:


> Just got back from the doctors with my first 3 months HBA1c result.... 38!
> 
> Cholesterol was a 4.79.
> 
> ...



Wow , you must be thrilled


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## Ally beetle (Sep 23, 2017)

Well done, you must be happy with that, just got to keep it up!!


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