# Why are DSNs so ill informed about LCHF regimes?



## Scrumpyjack65 (Mar 9, 2017)

Hi, Im a newbie on this forum but had a very frustrating conversation with my DSN yesterday.  Received a new pump, the Medtroinic 640G, going well but its suspending a lot.  My DSNs response was "well you really should be eating at least 100gms of carbs a day" and that will sort that out?  Err, I dont think so .... wherever they get their infomraiton from its clearly out of date. Makes me so cross when we as those who live with Type 1 are doing our best to lose weight etc, using the LCHF regime but we are not encouraged to by our health professionals ... aarrgghhhh !!!!!!!!! Anyone else had the same experience?


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## the blue wildebeest (Mar 9, 2017)

From my experience I think that DSNs rely on information which may be the convention, but does not take good account of individual needs or circumstances. I was definitely being told off last year for a low carb diet, and that I must have some carbohydrate with every meal..etc, etc. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa. 
The DSNs may also differ privately from convention. One I saw trained as a midwife, and has a list of 250 gestational patients, and did not actively promote alternative approaches, but was not so prescriptive. (I was not suspected of gestational diabetes, being 65 and male.)
It has seemed at times that I was left to sort out as best as possible from books and an excellent forum. The last two HbA1cs were at my suggestion, and I have asked for a review of medications. 
Good luck, Scrumpyjack65.


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## Scrumpyjack65 (Mar 9, 2017)

the blue wildebeest said:


> From my experience I think that DSNs rely on information which may be the convention, but does not take good account of individual needs or circumstances. I was definitely being told off last year for a low carb diet, and that I must have some carbohydrate with every meal..etc, etc. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.
> The DSNs may also differ privately from convention. One I saw trained as a midwife, and has a list of 250 gestational patients, and did not actively promote alternative approaches, but was not so prescriptive. (I was not suspected of gestational diabetes, being 65 and male.)
> It has seemed at times that I was left to sort out as best as possible from books and an excellent forum. The last two HbA1cs were at my suggestion, and I have asked for a review of medications.
> Good luck, Scrumpyjack65.


Hi, thanks @the blue wildebeest for your comments, glad its not just me getting told off ! As you say you're often on your own, but good to share the frustration with someone


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## HOBIE (Mar 9, 2017)

A lot of NHS staff have not got a clue about Diabetes. Not all but to many people have the wrong knowledge skills inc most newspaper folk/ If you talk to pepole in the street DOH !  & I am not talking about a few   Good luck & you have a good pump


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## Wirrallass (Mar 9, 2017)

Tbh I can't complain about my DSN, she's very helpful & informative  - so far! Sorry to hear you're not x


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## trophywench (Mar 9, 2017)

Well if it's suspending it means you must be hypo.  If you don't want to eat more carb then you need to adjust your insulin downwards.

How long since you last basal tested?  Basal rates don't stay the same for more than a short while whether you're on MDI or a pump.

If we really had to eat 100g carb a day just to remain alive, that means I must have been dead since my early teens, before I was even diabetic!  Don't forget though - every cuppa has carbs from the milk, and even thinly sliced cucumber or half a lettuce leaf does too - so nobody can cut em out to that degree.

And LCHF is no good to anyone REALLY needing to lose weight - diabetic or not - more LC M (moderate) F  !!


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## HOBIE (Mar 9, 2017)

I have two of my good mates off all meds for there T2. No help from their local DSNs. Pleased you have got a good one which I have but some are not so good


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## Scrumpyjack65 (Mar 9, 2017)

wirralass said:


> Tbh I can't complain about my DSN, she's very helpful & informative  - so far! Sorry to hear you're not x


Well you're lucky then.  My usual DSN is on maternity leave, but even then its an upward struggle to try and her to accept that doing low carb is working.  8 kilos lost so far, since mid December, only another xxxxx to go, not really that may but it feels like it sometimes !


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## Wirrallass (Mar 9, 2017)

Scrumpyjack65 said:


> Well you're lucky then.  My usual DSN is on maternity leave, but even then its an upward struggle to try and her to accept that doing low carb is working.  8 kilos lost so far, since mid December, only another xxxxx to go, not really that may but it feels like it sometimes !


Hi Scrumpyjack65 & well done re your 8 kilos loss. You have proof that LC diet is working for YOU, keep up the good work & good luck to more weight loss.

Dx Type2 April 2016
Metformin withdrawn 
Diet and exercise only


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## HOBIE (Mar 9, 2017)

Scrumpyjack65 said:


> Well you're lucky then.  My usual DSN is on maternity leave, but even then its an upward struggle to try and her to accept that doing low carb is working.  8 kilos lost so far, since mid December, only another xxxxx to go, not really that may but it feels like it sometimes !


Well done SJ 65


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## trophywench (Mar 9, 2017)

Well weight loss is another reason for needing less insulin of course, same as when you gain weight you need more of it.

Have you done any basal testing recently - or in fact, ever?


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## HOBIE (Mar 9, 2017)

Scrumpyjack65 said:


> Hi, Im a newbie on this forum but had a very frustrating conversation with my DSN yesterday.  Received a new pump, the Medtroinic 640G, going well but its suspending a lot.  My DSNs response was "well you really should be eating at least 100gms of carbs a day" and that will sort that out?  Err, I dont think so .... wherever they get their infomraiton from its clearly out of date. Makes me so cross when we as those who live with Type 1 are doing our best to lose weight etc, using the LCHF regime but we are not encouraged to by our health professionals ... aarrgghhhh !!!!!!!!! Anyone else had the same experience?


She needs to back to school !


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## Scrumpyjack65 (Mar 9, 2017)

HOBIE said:


> Well done SJ 65


Hi Thanks, @HOBIE, yep low carbing is working just need some fine tuning now.  @trophywench suggested doing some basal testing, good idea, something to get cracking with tomorrow, thanks for the reminder


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## Bubbsie (Mar 10, 2017)

the blue wildebeest said:


> From my experience I think that DSNs rely on information which may be the convention, but does not take good account of individual needs or circumstances. I was definitely being told off last year for a low carb diet, and that I must have some carbohydrate with every meal..etc, etc. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.
> The DSNs may also differ privately from convention. One I saw trained as a midwife, and has a list of 250 gestational patients, and did not actively promote alternative approaches, but was not so prescriptive. (I was not suspected of gestational diabetes, being 65 and male.)
> It has seemed at times that I was left to sort out as best as possible from books and an excellent forum. The last two HbA1cs were at my suggestion, and I have asked for a review of medications.
> Good luck, Scrumpyjack65.


Diagnosed in July 2016...given a prescription & advised to buy Crabs & Cals by GP...then off you go...lost for the first 5/6 weeks...started to do my own research (use the term advisedly)...reading...found the forum...began testing...started to make progress from then on...several issues with GP...finally had to write to him to make my concerns known...from then on...showered with support...much of which came far too little and too late...attended a DESMOND Course in November 2016 (more to show willing than anything else)...the educators advised strongly not to test...LCHF diet condemned as unsuitable for me...learnt nothing...finally saw the DSN in February 2016...not much to discuss with her...just foot check...at my last review asked my GP how much he knew about diabetes...his response 'not much'...horrified...so with the help of the forum and some excellent reading...BG down from 17.4 at DX...now an average of 5.8 last seven days...6 for the last 30 days...despite the advice from the professionals that my regime was entirely unsuitable to manage my diabetes.. managing fine so far...I completely understand your frustration Scrumpyjack.


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## Scrumpyjack65 (Mar 14, 2017)

Hi, @JohnnyB, thanks for your response, but you it seems are seeing it from someone you cared for who used to have type 2 so your information is based on that disease, not type 1 which is completely different.   I cant comment on how the diet for type 2's work, as my experience is only 40 years of living with type 1 but for me the lchf regime works, plus Im taking 20% less insulin since starting and am no longer having the blood sugar spikes I used to when I ate bread or other carbs.  So whilst we have our own opinions on this topic thats fine, but I still stick by my original query -- DSNs advocate the 100gms of carbs a day because they've never tried low carbing, and by the way JohnnyB, low carbing is not the same the atkins diet ... he didnt have any carbs in his diet, whereas low carbers do !


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## JohnnyB (Mar 14, 2017)

Thanks for replying. I understand these diets do work for some people and some people smoke cigarettes and get away with it, so there are always exceptions. be careful of extrapolating your experience to others. The diets that send type 2 into remission (like Dr Neal Barnard's) and have been proven in decent studies, will also greatly assist type 1 as they will massively reduce the need for insulin. Type 1's can also have insulin resistance, so can have great similarities to T2 in that regard, even though it cant be reversed or cured due to pancreatic cell death.  Insulin resistance in T1 is caused by too much fat in the cells, so improving IR in T1 will lower insulin requirements.  Typical reductions are in the order of 50-% reduction in insulin on those plant based diets. High insulin causes cardio vascular disease and cancers long term, so insulin really needs to be reduced to around the normal levels of a healthy person to avoid long term disease. Regardless of whether it is T1 or T2, doing anything that harms the kidneys like eating hi protein and fat diets (all that's left if you demonise carbs) is a recipe for long term disaster.  its really unfortunate that people misunderstand carbs. It's refined and processed carbs like cakes,biscuits etc that are the problem and the healthiest people in the world live on plenty of carbs like sweet potato, yams, barley, rice. Anyway, not looking to get into an argument but hopefully people will at least look at the LONG TERM evidence when deciding on a diet to follow.  The longest living healthiest people in the world had predominantly starch / carb based diets with very little fat and low protein. Eskimos ate the opposite and lived the shortest lives.


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## Scrumpyjack65 (Mar 14, 2017)

So @JohnnyB, what regime do you follow if its not Dr Bernstein's LCHF option?


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## Stitch147 (Mar 14, 2017)

We dont all follow the LCHF way of eating, i know that I dont! The reason I dont is that I know that i would not be able to sustain in long term. Many years ago, long before I was diagnosed as diabetic I tried the Atkins diet for about 3 months and ended up with bad kidney infections. Just over 3 years ago, again before diagnosis, I lost almost 7 stone in weight following a low fat balanced and varied diet, including eating carbs. Since being diagnosed I have reduced the amount of carbs that I have, I usually have between 100-150g a day. I have spoken to my Dr about my diet and have shown him what I eat (I keep a food diary) and he is happy with it. We dont all follow LCHF, we have to find what works for us in the long run.


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## Owen (Mar 14, 2017)

It amazes me that how many people know more about medicine than doctors, more about care than nurses. Quote about metabolism and nutrition without any proper understanding of these things.

Please don't disrespect the medical profession with sweeping speculation that they know nothing about diabetes.

Type 1 diabetes with low amounts of carbohydrate needs low amounts of insulin. This is a fact. If you are suffering from too many hypo's then either your carbs are too low or your insulin is too high.

Any diet that reduces weight will be of benefit to type 2 diabetes in the short term, especially for people with low mobility. However there are real concerns as earlier stated regarding the kidneys and CV system for long term diets promoting high intakes of fat (in particular saturated fats). The body will find a way to get its essential dose of glucose, whether it be from carbs, protein or fats. Its preferred choice will be carbs, then protein and finally fats. Ketonic diets encourage people to trick the body into a state of starvation by restricting carbohydrates and indeed protein until the body resorts to fats.

The bad news is that the body also needs a constant of PH balance. Ketones when in excess cause this balance to become more acidic. Hence acidosis. The very mechanism of creating this situation is why it is dangerous for people using insulin to try and force this too far. Also by taking this approach will result in low stores of glycogen. So when you do get to a point of hypoglycaemia and along comes a paramedic with some glucagon, nothing will happen. Luckily there is a back up option of IV glucose 10%.

I am not saying dont follow LCHF. I am saying learn all of the risks and adjust your insulin to compensate. Just remember, if you regularly treating hypo's with carbs, then you are no longer low carb, you are chasing homeostasis with reactive carbohydrate.

It is about finding balance for your own metabolism. This is very individual and effected by levels of exercise amongst many other things.

A final note before assassinating theory and advice. Provide the evidence get it peer evaluated then publish it in the same rigorous ways that expected within the scientific community. Or state clearly that it your own opinion with supporting evidence.


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## Scrumpyjack65 (Mar 14, 2017)

HI, thanks for your response @Stitch147.  BTW, Im not saying that low carb is the "only way to lose weight" its just one and in my view the DSNs should give you the information and options for all regimes, not just low fat, high fruit veg etc options that are given to me.  If you have found a way that works for you thats great.  I think there is some confusion here - Dr Atkins as far as I can see followed a no carb diet whereas the LCHF is an approach where you chose how many carbs you eat, fyi, I eat about 50 gms a day which works for me but not for my pal up the road and she has 80 gms.  We are all different and we all have to find a way that works for us, its just a shame that in some cases the DSNs arent as clued up as I would hope they would be.  Thankfully, life goes on


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## Scrumpyjack65 (Mar 14, 2017)

Owen said:


> @Owen -Im not saying that the health care professionals know nothing about diabetes, you have misread my post it seems.  However the community of people who live with diabetes day in day out, know what works for them.  I am not as you suggest disrespecting the medical profession .... but we are the people living with it, not them in a lot of cases.    I notice you keep talking about type 2"s?  What about type 1's who at times need all the help they can get ... Im a person with Type 1 diabetes and am just trying to find my way through all this stuff to lose weight, thats its nothing more complicated.
> 
> I thank you for your response however, have a great day, its sunny here in Norfolk, UK - yippee a good day ahead


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## Bubbsie (Mar 14, 2017)

Scrumpyjack65 said:


> Hi, @JohnnyB, thanks for your response, but you it seems are seeing it from someone you cared for who used to have type 2 so your information is based on that disease, not type 1 which is completely different.   I cant comment on how the diet for type 2's work, as my experience is only 40 years of living with type 1 but for me the lchf regime works, plus Im taking 20% less insulin since starting and am no longer having the blood sugar spikes I used to when I ate bread or other carbs.  So whilst we have our own opinions on this topic thats fine, but I still stick by my original query -- DSNs advocate the 100gms of carbs a day because they've never tried low carbing, and by the way JohnnyB, low carbing is not the same the atkins diet ... he didnt have any carbs in his diet, whereas low carbers do !


Well said Scrumpyjack...the assumption that LCHF equates to the Atkins diet is  wrong...wrong...wrong....I am type 2...when I say high fat it doesn't mean I fill myself full of red meat...or full fat everything...I eat sensibly...avoid highly processed foods...


Stitch147 said:


> We dont all follow the LCHF way of eating, i know that I dont! The reason I dont is that I know that i would not be able to sustain in long term. Many years ago, long before I was diagnosed as diabetic I tried the Atkins diet for about 3 months and ended up with bad kidney infections. Just over 3 years ago, again before diagnosis, I lost almost 7 stone in weight following a low fat balanced and varied diet, including eating carbs. Since being diagnosed I have reduced the amount of carbs that I have, I usually have between 100-150g a day. I have spoken to my Dr about my diet and have shown him what I eat (I keep a food diary) and he is happy with it. We dont all follow LCHF, we have to find what works for us in the long run.


I follow a low carb high fat diet...but...it is NOT the Atkins diet...please accept there is a difference between LCHF & The Atkins Diet!!!


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## Bubbsie (Mar 14, 2017)

Owen said:


> It is about finding balance for your own metabolism. This is very individual and effected by levels of exercise amongst many other things.
> 
> A final note before assassinating theory and advice. Provide the evidence get it peer evaluated then publish it in the same rigorous ways that expected within the scientific community. Or state clearly that it your own opinion with supporting evidence


Well said Owen!


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## JohnnyB (Mar 14, 2017)

Owen, quite a bit of useful points made there about diets.  However, many doctors are clueless about diabetes. They think it is a matter of only controlling blood sugar numbers , which are just a symptom of the condition. T2 is all about insulin resistance generally, so the focus should be on addressing that underlying cause while keeping BGL under control in the process. Unfortunately, many of the drugs make diabetes worse in the long term as they cause weight gain and end up creating a vicious circle of more drugs to treat more resistance, which in turn needs more drugs or breaking by an intensive lifestyle intervention, which doctors have no idea about as they don't get trained in nutrition and the only tools in the kit are drugs and bariatric surgery.   A final word about peer reviewed evidence. Unless you are an absolute expert in evaluating the research and being aware of the UNPUBLISHED evidence, you don't have a hope of knowing if it is good or bad. Journals are now pretty much owned by the drug companies effectively. Most researchers these days have terrible conflicts of interest as they receive funding from drug companies and medical device manufacturers. If they go publishing unfavourable results too often, they find their research funds dry up and they cant retain research staff. Sure they declare the funding but that proves nothing.   There have been shocking FOI revealations in the states about drug companies shelving studies that showed unfavourable results. The FDA was dragged kicking and screaming to eventually release them and we had cases like some of the biggest drug companies paying millions if not billions in FDA fines when it was shown for instance that placebo was more effective than Prozac and Paxil read it here for the full story http://nutritionfacts.org/2017/01/26/are-sugar-pills-better-than-antidepressant-drugs/        Finding 'pure' peer reviewed evidence is getting harder and harder these days.


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## JohnnyB (Mar 14, 2017)

Scrumpyjack65 said:


> So @JohnnyB, what regime do you follow if its not Dr Bernstein's LCHF option?


If you can put up with the extreme restrictions, Dr B's is probably better than the ADA diet but very few people could sustain it long term.  if I had any type of diabetes myself I'd turbo charge it and follow Dr Joel Fuhrman's low GI, low starch, nutrient dense diet (which has many similarities to Dr B's but cuts out all the animal foods)  initially, so I got off all the meds quickly if I was T2 and reduced my insulin needs drastically if I was T1.  That would improve the insulin resistance very quickly so that insulin could do its job again . Then once my insulin resistance was OK, once I was through that early phase, I'd then introduce a lot of unprocessed plant foods with plenty of starchy veges which would allow me to do away with the portion control aspect and be eating a diet I could sustain for life. Some people though may not tolerate the starchy veges too early and have to stay on phase 1 longer.  That's basically the diet that Dr Neal Barnard and John McDougall use to reverse T2 diabetes and reduce insulin for type 1 but they just use a bit of insulin initially to control numbers but generally never use drugs.  by the way, that is how I eat and have eaten for about 20 years and at nearly 60 feel fitter and healthier than in my early 30's with blood test results to show it.   However, I understand this is not how most people can live and I respect the fact that some people see it as too hard to do.  Definitely not something to be done without close medical supervision either as it will lower blood sugars, blood pressure and reduce triglycerides quite rapidly and if medications for those were not reduced as required, it could be dangerous, so wouldn't want anyone to try this without medical supervision to adjust the meds downwards.


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## Stitch147 (Mar 14, 2017)

Bubbsie said:


> I follow a low carb high fat diet...but...it is NOT the Atkins diet...please accept there is a difference between LCHF & The Atkins Diet!!!



I know that there is a difference, I wasnt saying that there wasnt, just that Ive tried atkins before and wont do it again, and LCHF I would struggle to stick with. I dont care what anyone else does, Im happy with what I do.


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## MikeTurin (Mar 14, 2017)

I've found the hard way that doctors are clueless about diabetes. I am still puzzled why when I was having a fasting glucose of 95-99 mg/dl (5.4-5.5 mmol/l) ny old GP didn't warned me or tried an HBa1C - Yes, it's in normal values. When I got a result of 7.5 mmol/l once instead of making me the HBa1C he made me to repeat the BG exams and was satisfied with the 5.4 mmol/l result - He ordered me a full urine exam, that was ok.

Then if I start to find that doctors are clueless about diabetes, then I start to read books. and following the advices on books on diabetes one naturally lowers the carbohydrate intake is one starts to count them (even for a type 2). I was eating pizza for dinner and spaghetti or rice for supper and white bread and maybe a cake, few veggies . Now I eat 150 grams of whole wheat bread a day and a plate of pasta only for dinner, al lot of salads and veggies, and a lot of fish and cheese. It's that low carb? 
Yes, compared to the average diet I was following. 
No, if compared to ketogenic diet. 
No, if I am eating 130 grams of carbs on average.
Yes, if I have to follow the eatwell plate.


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## Owen (Mar 14, 2017)

JohnnyB said:


> Owen, quite a bit of useful points made there about diets.  However, many doctors are clueless about diabetes. They think it is a matter of only controlling blood sugar numbers , which are just a symptom of the condition. T2 is all about insulin resistance generally, so the focus should be on addressing that underlying cause while keeping BGL under control in the process. Unfortunately, many of the drugs make diabetes worse in the long term as they cause weight gain and end up creating a vicious circle of more drugs to treat more resistance, which in turn needs more drugs or breaking by an intensive lifestyle intervention, which doctors have no idea about as they don't get trained in nutrition and the only tools in the kit are drugs and bariatric surgery.   A final word about peer reviewed evidence. Unless you are an absolute expert in evaluating the research and being aware of the UNPUBLISHED evidence, you don't have a hope of knowing if it is good or bad. Journals are now pretty much owned by the drug companies effectively. Most researchers these days have terrible conflicts of interest as they receive funding from drug companies and medical device manufacturers. If they go publishing unfavourable results too often, they find their research funds dry up and they cant retain research staff. Sure they declare the funding but that proves nothing.   There have been shocking FOI revealations in the states about drug companies shelving studies that showed unfavourable results. The FDA was dragged kicking and screaming to eventually release them and we had cases like some of the biggest drug companies paying millions if not billions in FDA fines when it was shown for instance that placebo was more effective than Prozac and Paxil read it here for the full story http://nutritionfacts.org/2017/01/26/are-sugar-pills-better-than-antidepressant-drugs/        Finding 'pure' peer reviewed evidence is getting harder and harder these days.


The peer review I refer to is the unpublished rigor that is working in the background. However I agree that most research carries low efficacy due to bias, either declared or hidden.


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## JohnnyB (Mar 14, 2017)

MikeTurin said:


> I've found the hard way that doctors are clueless about diabetes. I am still puzzled why when I was having a fasting glucose of 95-99 mg/dl (5.4-5.5 mmol/l) ny old GP didn't warned me or tried an HBa1C - Yes, it's in normal values. When I got a result of 7.5 mmol/l once instead of making me the HBa1C he made me to repeat the BG exams and was satisfied with the 5.4 mmol/l result - He ordered me a full urine exam, that was ok.
> 
> Then if I start to find that doctors are clueless about diabetes, then I start to read books. and following the advices on books on diabetes one naturally lowers the carbohydrate intake is one starts to count them (even for a type 2). I was eating pizza for dinner and spaghetti or rice for supper and white bread and maybe a cake, few veggies . Now I eat 150 grams of whole wheat bread a day and a plate of pasta only for dinner, al lot of salads and veggies, and a lot of fish and cheese. It's that low carb?
> Yes, compared to the average diet I was following.
> ...



Mike, if you did it with supervision, (assuming you are on some meds) just as a trial for 2 weeks  and dropped the cheese and fish (far too much fat clogging up your insulin receptors)  and swapped pasta and bread for starchy veges and plenty of legumes, I bet you'd improve in quick time. cheers.


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## Bubbsie (Mar 14, 2017)

Stitch147 said:


> I know that there is a difference, I wasnt saying that there wasnt, just that Ive tried atkins before and wont do it again, and LCHF I would struggle to stick with. I dont care what anyone else does, Im happy with what I do.


I do care about what others do Stitch...very much...I would like every diabetic that uses this forum to do well...get those numbers down...however... I won't direct them...I won't preach to them (and not suggesting you do for one moment)...I won't tell them what to do...or what diet is right for them...we all make our own decisions...decide what is right for us...my post was merely to point out there is a difference between Atkins and LCHF...and I have made my views on LCHF clear in many other posts that it is not right for all...but...is right for me!


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## JohnnyB (Mar 14, 2017)

Bubbsie said:


> I do care about what others do Stitch...very much...I would like every diabetic that uses this forum to do well...get those numbers down...however... I won't direct them...I won't preach to them (and not suggesting you do for one moment)...I won't tell them what to do...or what diet is right for them...we all make our own decisions...decide what is right for us...my post was merely to point out there is a difference between Atkins and LCHF...and I have made my views on LCHF clear in many other posts that it is not right for all...but...it right for me!



Bubbsie, excuse me as I'm new and haven't seen your old posts but I agree on both LCHF and Atkins or Dr Bernsteins diet that that are unlikely to be sustainable long term.   It is helpful though IMO if people do share what works for them.  Please don't take this as criticism, but judging by the meds list you have listed, what you are doing does not seem to be working.  However, maybe the meds are reducing so I could be wrong , being so new.  Would you care to share what you do in regard to diet and why you think it is working?  cheers


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## Owen (Mar 14, 2017)

JohnnyB said:


> Bubbsie, excuse me as I'm new and haven't seen your old posts but I agree on both LCHF and Atkins or Dr Bernsteins diet that that are unlikely to be sustainable long term.   It is helpful though IMO if people do share what works for them.  Please don't take this as criticism, but judging by the meds list you have listed, what you are doing does not seem to be working.  However, maybe the meds are reducing so I could be wrong , being so new.  Would you care to share what you do in regard to diet and why you think it is working?  cheers


I would be careful saying that because of meds something is wrong or not working. If this person has perfectly acceptable levels of blood sugar and they are leading a decent life. The YES it is working.

So if a person a can only survive through taking Digoxin then does that mean that they have failed?


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## Owen (Mar 14, 2017)

JohnnyB said:


> Mike, if you did it with supervision, (assuming you are on some meds) just as a trial for 2 weeks  and dropped the cheese and fish (far too much fat clogging up your insulin receptors)  and swapped pasta and bread for starchy veges and plenty of legumes, I bet you'd improve in quick time. cheers.


I really don't believe that you have the knowledge of how starchy carbohydrates cause problems for diabetics.


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## Owen (Mar 14, 2017)

Sorry you are very wrong to suggest that doctors are not aware of side effects. They would not be allowed to prescribe if that we the case. In an ideal world no-one would need meds. But sadly this is not the case otherwise the would be no survivors of cancer etc.
It has to be that the benefits outweigh the risks, then prescribing is the correct thing to do.


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## JohnnyB (Mar 14, 2017)

Owen said:


> I really don't believe that you have the knowledge of how starchy carbohydrates cause problems for diabetics.



I am very aware Owen. That is why when I was asked what diet I would follow earlier in this thread, I specifically mentioned it being low GI initially  for that very reason. However, once insulin sensitivity is restored and the glucose can get into the muscle cells, you couldn't eat anything better than plates of starchy vegetables like sweet potato, rice, barley etc. This is what I mean when I say many doctors don't understand diabetes - they focus on only controlling the blood sugar numbers and don't have a clue how to restore insulin sensitivity.  However, in case I am misunderstood, starchy carbs (especially refined junk ones) will cause blood sugar to rise dramatically while there is insulin resistance and that will cause problems as you say.


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## Scrumpyjack65 (Mar 14, 2017)

HI all, wow I didnt realise when I first posted that this was such an emotive topic .  Ive only been away for my computer for about an hour and all of the new threads have come in.  Thanks for posting to all of you, a bit of reflective reading required later on it seems.  Always lov feedback, so thank you for yours.


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## Bubbsie (Mar 14, 2017)

JohnnyB said:


> Bubbsie, excuse me as I'm new and haven't seen your old posts but I agree on both LCHF and Atkins or Dr Bernsteins diet that that are unlikely to be sustainable long term.   It is helpful though IMO if people do share what works for them.  Please don't take this as criticism, but judging by the meds list you have listed, what you are doing does not seem to be working.  However, maybe the meds are reducing so I could be wrong , being so new.  Would you care to share what you do in regard to diet and why you think it is working?  cheers


Johnny...if you believe I am going to respond to your provocative/judgmental comments...let me just say Nicola Sturgeon would have more chance of winning the next referendum on the Scottish devolution issue...you are pushing hard with your choice of diet for diabetics...salesman per chance?...wonder why...you are not diabetic...you were a carer for a diabetic you say...whilst anyone is free to join this forum...most usually do so for advice/support after their diagnosis...you require neither...why then are you here...if you cannot be constructive with me...please feel free to ignore my posts in future...thanking you in advance.


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## Owen (Mar 14, 2017)

JohnnyB said:


> I am very aware Owen. That is why when I was asked what diet I would follow earlier in this thread, I specifically mentioned it being low GI initially  for that very reason. However, once insulin sensitivity is restored and the glucose can get into the muscle cells, you couldn't eat anything better than plates of starchy vegetables like sweet potato, rice, barley etc. This is what I mean when I say many doctors don't understand diabetes - they focus on only controlling the blood sugar numbers and don't have a clue how to restore insulin sensitivity.  However, in case I am misunderstood, starchy carbs (especially refined junk ones) will cause blood sugar to rise dramatically while there is insulin resistance and that will cause problems as you say.


Its nice to know that you have both superior knowledge to doctors and greater experience than anyone suffering from diabetes.

We should all feel grateful for your presence. How did anyone survive before.


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## Bubbsie (Mar 14, 2017)

Owen said:


> Its nice to know that you have both superior knowledge to doctors and greater experience than anyone suffering from diabetes.
> 
> We should all feel grateful for your presence. How did anyone survive before.


Quite Owen...wondering why he is so generous in sharing such gems of diabetes management with us all?...on a wind up mission.


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## JohnnyB (Mar 14, 2017)

No Bubbsie, just happened to stumble across this forum by chance and thought I would engage in the discussion. I am refraining from personal insult and trying my best to be logical and arguing the facts not trying to be personally critical, so sorry if you take it that way. Not trying to wind up anyone and very open to a respectful discussion.


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## Bubbsie (Mar 14, 2017)

JohnnyB said:


> No Bubbsie, just happened to stumble across this forum by chance and thought I would engage in the discussion. I am refraining from personal insult and trying my best to be logical and arguing the facts not trying to be personally critical, so sorry if you take it that way. Not trying to wind up anyone and very open to a respectful discussion.


Johnny you are now on my ignored list.


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## Owen (Mar 14, 2017)

JohnnyB said:


> Owen, keep in mind who educates doctors on the latest meds to use - Drug company reps. Hardly a source of unbiased advice. But what about medical conferences full of expert speakers you might say.  Again, look who pays the speakers and heavily subsidizes the conferences. (sorry, this is unfair my former partner was a very high profile professor with a big research team, so I saw what went on)  Believe me , drug companies fund most of the research on the drugs and they employ very, very smart people to design the studies to get the result they want. If you don't sing from their songsheet, you never get another gig.   Think of all the drug recalls we have seen where drugs were withdrawn from use because they were finally found to be harmful....   The first drug in the glitazone class, Rezulin, was recalled in the US in 2000 because it caused liver damage leading, in many cases, to death or the need for liver transplantation. (how's that for a side effect of an 'approved' drug)
> Other glitazone drugs were soon released to replace Rezulin, but all of them are less effective than already available drugs, cause deterioration of BSLs when patients are switched to them from other anti-diabetic drugs, and cause side effects such as liver toxicity, heart function effects, weight gain, oedema, anaemia, low blood pressure, elevated lipid levels, and possibly progesterone level changes. In May 2007, the US Food and Drug Administration issued a safety alert on Avandia, stating that it significantly raised the risk of heart attack and heart-related death. In fact, patients taking Avandia were found to be 30 to 40 percent more likely to have a heart attack or suffer heart-related death than those taking a placebo or another diabetes drug. In fact there are 6 major studies that prove intensive drug treatment of diabetes lead to worse long term outcomes for patients.
> 
> Not trying to be a know it all here but I do know my stuff and what goes on in the world of medicine.      Again, though , for fear of being misunderstood,  sometimes drugs are absolutely necessary and are life saving. Treating diabetes with them is definitely not one of those, except as a very short term interim measure on rare occasions.


As I said we are blessed to have you.


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## JohnnyB (Mar 14, 2017)

No Bubbsie, just happened to stumble across this forum by chance and thought I would engage in the discussion. I am refraining from personal insult and trying my best to be logical and arguing the facts not trying to be personally critical, so sorry if you take it that way. Not trying to wind up anyone and very open to a respectful discussion.


Bubbsie said:


> Johnny you are now on my ignored list.



No problem Bubbsie - sorry you take it personally but feel free to write why you disagree instead of reacting like this. Thanks for discussing to date though and all the best.


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## everydayupsanddowns (Mar 14, 2017)

It feels like this thread has run its course and with apologies to the OP has been closed.

Members are reminded to respect other people's opinions and positions on all matters relating to their diabetes management. Differences of opinion and experience of trying different strategies regarding diet are inevitable. There is no 'one size fits all' approach, and neither should the use of any medication be suggested as any kind of failure or problem.

Thank you to those who had concerns over the atmosphere in this thread and reported it for the moderators attention.

Play nicely everyone


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