# Perfluooctanesulfonic acid



## mikeyB (Mar 4, 2022)

Courtesy from New Scientist this week.

You may not be able to pronounce this, or drop it in casual conversation, but it is a  chemical which was widely used as a water repellent coating for clothing and fabrics. The problem with it is that it is a "forever chemical". It lasts forever. As a consequence it's everywhere, including inside you. 

Is PFOS toxic?

Main toxic effects of PFOS include hepatotoxicity, neurotoxicity, reproductive toxicity, immunotoxicity, thyroid disruption, and cardiovascular toxicity. Plus renal and testicular cancer and sperm damage.

Needless to say, it's still in production, and it's only in larger amounts that it causes any harm, but it will probably be banned worldwide this year. 

So don't worry, but it just goes to show how mankind has developed all these chemicals and thought whoopee! it's waterproof.  So they went ahead and sold it worldwide. The classic example was Thomas Midgely, who invented two disastrous chemicals - lead in petrol, and the CFC Freon as a refrigerant. Lead to make your children dunces and Freon to make the hole in the ozone layer bigger, threatening the world with skin cancer.

I use the word "mankind" deliberately. It's always men that invent  and sell this deadly stuff. Women invent things like the usually harmless Tippex. Mind you, the American actress Hedley Lamarr did co-develop a radio guidance system for torpedoes which used spread spectrum and frequency hopping to defy enemy jamming. The basic technology is still in use in Bluetooth and WiFi,  so she does get more points for good rather than harm.


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## travellor (Mar 5, 2022)

mikeyB said:


> Courtesy from New Scientist this week.
> 
> You may not be able to pronounce this, or drop it in casual conversation, but it is a  chemical which was widely used as a water repellent coating for clothing and fabrics. The problem with it is that it is a "forever chemical". It lasts forever. As a consequence it's everywhere, including inside you.
> 
> ...



Patsy Sherman invented Scotchguard in 1952.
Exactly the chemical and process to coat fabric and clothing you are talking about.

Marion Donovan invented the disposable nappy, possibly not a "forever chemical, but they were certainly non biodegradable, and a "forever product".


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## Leadinglights (Mar 5, 2022)

travellor said:


> Pasty Sherman invented Scotchguard in 1952.
> Exactly the chemical and process to coat fabric and clothing you are talking about.
> 
> Marion Donovan invented the disposable nappy, possibly not a "forever chemical, but they were certainly non biodegradable, and a "forever product".


The disposable nappies that my grandson had (17 years ago ) were composed of stuff like swell gel, I only knew because one burst and covered him in this sticky jelly like stuff which took a good bit of scrubbing to get off.


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## travellor (Mar 5, 2022)

Leadinglights said:


> The disposable nappies that my grandson had (17 years ago ) were composed of stuff like swell gel, I only knew because one burst and covered him in this sticky jelly like stuff which took a good bit of scrubbing to get off.



They still are.
It's a cross-linked polyacrylamide.
Probably not harmful in itself, but still being argued over.
I've put many disposable nappies into landfill over the years, and they're still there, and in the eco system, in all their glory though.


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## Leadinglights (Mar 5, 2022)

travellor said:


> They still are.
> It's a cross-linked polyacrylamide.
> Probably not harmful in itself, but still being argued over.
> I've put many disposable nappies into landfill over the years, and they're still there, and in the eco system, in all their glory though.


Yes I think once the acrylamide is polymerised it is then not toxic.


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## mikeyB (Mar 26, 2022)

Don’t know why folks are that worried about forever chemicals in their system, they drink alcohol which is toxic at any dose without any worries at all. Go figure.


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## ColinUK (Mar 26, 2022)

mikeyB said:


> Don’t know why folks are that worried about forever chemicals in their system, they drink alcohol which is toxic at any dose without any worries at all. Go figure.


Also sugar and nicotine.


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## trophywench (Mar 27, 2022)

I've been breathing in chemicals in the air around me for 71 years so far Colin, as well as fag smoke.  Yes the fag smoke has caught up with me, but nobody's analysed what I've ingested from foundries, drop forgers, demolition, asbestos, grinding, steam trains, lorries, cars and buses as yet. 

Ah - creosote, and road tar - as kids we always deliberately went along whatever road our mothers told us not to cos the steamroller was working there, cos the smell was so lovely!  And of course if the weather was colder, it was always lovely and warm!


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## mikeyB (Mar 28, 2022)

Don’t forget inhaling the lead that was in petrol when we were younger before they found it was causing children to have lower IQs. Probably why I just became a doctor instead of a theoretical astrophysicist.


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## travellor (Mar 29, 2022)

mikeyB said:


> Don’t forget inhaling the lead that was in petrol when we were younger before they found it was causing children to have lower IQs. Probably why I just became a doctor instead of a theoretical astrophysicist.


Just go diesel?
Dr. Nick Riviera probably had the same issue.
Gets to us all at our age.
Fortunately we can improve the world for our kids.
As you originally said, when you started this thread, "forever chemicals" are an issue for us all.


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## Leadinglights (Mar 29, 2022)

travellor said:


> Just go diesel?
> Dr. Nick Riviera probably had the same issue.
> Gets to us all at our age.
> Fortunately we can improve the world for our kids.
> As you originally said, when you started this thread, "forever chemicals" are an issue for us all.


We needed to replace our diesel car which did on average 60mpg for the petrol equivalent which sadly is only giving us 40mpg on average. Not a good swap, not that any car is good at the moment.


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## ColinUK (Mar 29, 2022)

This one’s ok


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## travellor (Mar 29, 2022)

Leadinglights said:


> We needed to replace our diesel car which did on average 60mpg for the petrol equivalent which sadly is only giving us 40mpg on average. Not a good swap, not that any car is good at the moment.



Just replaced mine, from a 1.6 diesel C4 Picasso that gave  around 45mpg, to a Suzuki Vitara alldrive 1.4 petrol that gives around the same.
The changes in technology have let modern petrol engines catch up with old oil burners it seems.


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## Leadinglights (Mar 29, 2022)

travellor said:


> Just replaced mine, from a 1.6 diesel C4 Picasso that gave  around 45mpg, to a Suzuki Vitara alldrive 1.4 petrol that gives around the same.
> The changes in technology have let modern petrol engines catch up with old oil burners it seems.


We had a 1.6 C3 diesel and now a 1.4 C3 Petrol, my OH hates how it drives as well as not such good fuel consumption.


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## Wheelz (Mar 29, 2022)

travellor said:


> Just replaced mine, from a 1.6 diesel C4 Picasso that gave  around 45mpg, to a Suzuki Vitara alldrive 1.4 petrol that gives around the same.
> The changes in technology have let modern petrol engines catch up with old oil burners it seems.


What's your opinion on the Vitara? Thinking of getting one for my next car & would love to hear an owner's opinion.


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## travellor (Mar 29, 2022)

Excellent so far.
Had it a couple of months.
I've got the Alldrive, it's the 1.4 ecoboost, not the hybrid version.
Still low enough emission though.
I wanted the Alldrive as it'll be going off road, here and abroad,  once I change the tyres from the pretty mundane Michelin Primacy it came with.
Either CrossClimates (I have them on my motorhome) or maybe something more extreme. (Another reason to stay with petrol, not electric yet)
Automatic, real torque converter box, not an electric clutch or bands, normally front wheel drive, sport mode feeds power to the rear, and changes the gear box and engine management mode.
Sub 10 second 0-60, (just).
It can also be switched into permanent 4x4, and has a locking transfer box.
No low ratio transfer box though.
ESP will control the wheels in 4x4 mode.
Hill decent mode that'll brake itself downhill on soft mud or snow.
All the usual cameras and radar for parking and car detection, and active cruise control to stay back from the car in front.
Comfortable, quiet, good boot space.
Supposedly very reliable.
Drives really well, I'd recommend it.


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## travellor (Mar 29, 2022)

Not me (yet)


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## Wheelz (Mar 29, 2022)

travellor said:


> Excellent so far.
> Had it a couple of months.
> I've got the Alldrive, it's the 1.4 ecoboost, not the hybrid version.
> Still low enough emission though.
> ...


Thanks! I'm currently driving a Mercedes A Class but it's way too low to the ground for any kind of adventure. The Vitara definitely sounds like the ideal car for me, I'll be wanting the Alldrive version. As a wheelchair bound driver it would be ideal for better adventures. I really appreciate your reply.


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## travellor (Mar 29, 2022)

Wheelz said:


> Thanks! I'm currently driving a Mercedes A Class but it's way too low to the ground for any kind of adventure. The Vitara definitely sounds like the ideal car for me, I'll be wanting the Alldrive version. As a wheelchair bound driver it would be ideal for better adventures. I really appreciate your reply.



My partner struggles with cars.
So do I to be honest if they are too low. The Vitara has a good seating position, and quite adjustable driving position.
The boot space is good, it's not an automatic/electric tailgate though.
It has a good height, and ground clearance, even on the two wheel drive version.
It also copes well with pot holes.


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## Wheelz (Mar 29, 2022)

travellor said:


> My partner struggles with cars.
> So do I to be honest if they are too low. The Vitara has a good seating position, and quite adjustable driving position.
> The boot space is good, it's not an automatic/electric tailgate though.
> It has a good height, and ground clearance, even on the two wheel drive version.
> It also copes well with pot holes.


My chair comes to pieces, I chuck the wheels on the back seats & the body of the chair sits on the passenger seat. If I've got passengers, it all goes in the boot. I love my little Mercedes, I call her the Grey Lady, but it's time for a more practical vehicle & the Vitara fits the bill in every way I can imagine, especially with all wheel drive. I'm not worried about an automatic boot, I'll just attach a strap so I can reach it.



I'll miss the Grey Lady, but I won't miss how impractical she is.


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## travellor (Mar 29, 2022)

We'll be keeping this one for a few years, possibly one day we'll need to go electric, hopefully a hybrid will work out for us, as we do intend to go to some remote places and countries.


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## mikeyB (Mar 30, 2022)

Wow, talk about topic drift. At least nobody has mentioned Hitler yet….


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## travellor (Mar 30, 2022)

mikeyB said:


> Wow, talk about topic drift. At least nobody has mentioned Hitler yet….


I do have a classic supercharged VW.
It was his idea to have a people's car.


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## Wheelz (Mar 30, 2022)

travellor said:


> I do have a classic supercharged VW.
> It was his idea to have a people's car.


DON'T MENTION THE WAR!!


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## nonethewiser (Mar 30, 2022)

travellor said:


> Just replaced mine, from a 1.6 diesel C4 Picasso that gave  around 45mpg, to a Suzuki Vitara alldrive 1.4 petrol that gives around the same.
> The changes in technology have let modern petrol engines catch up with old oil burners it seems.



Don't believe that, fuel wise petrol engines still lag behind diesels on mpg.


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## travellor (Mar 31, 2022)

nonethewiser said:


> Don't believe that, fuel wise petrol engines still lag behind diesels on mpg.



While the basic fact diesel contains more energy per litre than petrol can't be changed, about 15%,  petrol engines have improved greatly.
Diesel development in cars has stalled out by comparison, now they are seen as the dirty choice.
The dpf strangles them, whereas the petrol engines still breath well.
Although the now massive premium on diesel prices wasn't a consideration at the time, it also improves the cost per mile for petrols to diesels, so I do get around 6% of the 15% back.
But really it was the fact they both do the same mpg, but the Suzuki is a lot more fun that swung it, even if it had not been equal, I would have still bought it.


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## trophywench (Mar 31, 2022)

Well you do have to 'use' a diesel engine for long enough hard enough to clear the DPF so if you only use the car on repeated short journeys eg only for the school run and hence never enabling the DPF to clear and regenerate, you are asking for trouble.  We've always needed to take either or both of our cars and motorhome on a bit of a blast if they haven't had one for a while, because of that.

Don't change either car or defo not the Moho, very often so it's just part of owning a diesel to both of us.  Been driving diesels for 25-ish years.


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## travellor (Mar 31, 2022)

trophywench said:


> Well you do have to 'use' a diesel engine for long enough hard enough to clear the DPF so if you only use the car on repeated short journeys eg only for the school run and hence never enabling the DPF to clear and regenerate, you are asking for trouble.  We've always needed to take either or both of our cars and motorhome on a bit of a blast if they haven't had one for a while, because of that.
> 
> Don't change either car or defo not the Moho, very often so it's just part of owning a diesel to both of us.  Been driving diesels for 25-ish years.



Yes, all the emission controls have different problems.
The van gets used on long journeys, so that is liveable with, just needing to avoid more and more low emission zones now!I
The Vitara was a harder choice.
It's used for local journeys, and long ones, but destined for even longer runs, so that has a consideration of whether clean petrol is freely unavailable, some countries rely on old diesel Toyotas still!
I think that'll be a fly drives and rent locally now.
The VW is 55 years old, technically that should be running on unleaded still. It runs on normal fuel well enough though, if the valves wear I'll change the heads one day, but there is a full electric conversion on the market for it.
Although in a decade, fossil fuel may well price every thing out off the market.


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