# Head of Labour NOT singing ?



## HOBIE (Sep 18, 2015)

He must be a happy chap ?   National Anth.  I would not trust him


----------



## Northerner (Sep 18, 2015)

HOBIE said:


> He must be a happy chap ?   National Anth.  I would not trust him



Personally, I'd judge a man on a lot more than that. What hasn't been quoted much is the fact that he was praised by both serving and veteran soldiers for his dignified and respectful silence in comparison to the showboating of some of the others. Convenient that most (all) of the right-wing press were able to hide the cut in in-work benefits for 3m people, which people really ought to have been more concerned about.

The Daily Mash got it about right 

http://newsthump.com/2015/09/16/god-refusing-to-save-the-queen-after-jeremy-corbyn-didnt-ask-nicely/


----------



## HOBIE (Sep 18, 2015)

I think its very strange to have that in your head  I was brought up differently to him


----------



## Northerner (Sep 18, 2015)

HOBIE said:


> I think its very strange to have that in your head  I was brought up differently to him



It takes all sorts Hobie!


----------



## Northerner (Sep 18, 2015)

And another... 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...not-singing-the-national-anthem-10506098.html


----------



## Worcester_Matt (Sep 18, 2015)

It's an awful anthem, God doesn't exist & the Queen shouldn't exist (as an institution). Good on him for not singing. The whole story was manufactured nonsense designed to whip up anti-Corbyn sentiment ahead of PMQs. 

(If you can't tell I'm a committed leftie)


----------



## Mark T (Sep 18, 2015)

Personally, I'm not over keen on the guy or some of his ideas.  But he is at least seeming different considering the last few years I suspect you could put the leaders of the main parties behind a curtain and you wouldn't be able to tell who was talking.

 But queen or republic?  Queen for me (preferably freeddie) because the though of President Blair or President Cameron fills me with despair.

Most MP's seem to be a wholly untrustworthy self-serving bunch of idiot's.  Plenty of villages missing theirs me thinks.


----------



## KookyCat (Sep 19, 2015)

Well I don't see why people are getting their knickers in a bunch to be honest, I'd rather he not sing if that's what he believes than mouth the words with the enthusiasm of a trout.  I might not agree (it's unlikely I'd be moved to boycot the anthem) but politics has become far too focused on image, spin and insincerity.  Give me honest every time.


----------



## Northerner (Sep 19, 2015)

KookyCat said:


> ...politics has become far too focused on image, spin and insincerity.  Give me honest every time.



Which is precisely why Corbyn has become so popular, his integrity and honesty are in such a complete contrast to the same-old-same-old we have had for the past two decades, and which has been getting worse over the past decade with increasing intensity. I remember during the last General Election becoming completely exasperated by the ducking and diving, insincerity and prevarication of practically every putative MP. PMQs had become unwatchable, yet this week I was able to watch it all the way through, I wonder why? They claim he is taking us back to the politics of the 1980s, but actually, that is where the mainstream have been stuck ever since Thatcher. These are alternative political ideas, brought up to date for the situation we now find ourselves in the 21st century. The claim that there can be no alternative to free-market neoliberalism is patently absurd, given the complete collapse in the system we witnessed in 2007-8.

The perceived 'mistakes' being highlighted over the past week simply indicate, for me, the fact that he is a human being with genuine convictions who is not being micro-managed by a slick team of spin doctors.


----------



## Andy HB (Sep 19, 2015)

Totally agree with Mark, Kooky and Alan. I have no problem with him not singing the anthem. I still support the monarchy, but have great difficulty with Charles becoming king. But have absolutely no interest in a Republic.

Meanwhile, my politics lie more on the blue side with a dash of liberal values. But, I am delighted that the labour party under Mr Corbyn have returned to their proper colour. The conservatives will make a huge mistake if they think they can continue in the old ways because I think politics has just grown up a little bit. Or, atleast, I hope it has.

Andy


----------



## Northerner (Sep 19, 2015)

Andy HB said:


> Meanwhile, my politics lie more on the blue side with a dash of liberal values. But, I am delighted that the labour party under Mr Corbyn have returned to their proper colour. The conservatives will make a huge mistake if they think they can continue in the old ways because I think politics has just grown up a little bit. Or, atleast, I hope it has.
> 
> Andy



Agree totally Andy, whatever colour your politics are, the political class now need to re-examine their relationship with the electorate. If the Tory press don't succeed in strangling the new politics at birth there is the opportunity for a more inclusive and engaging future, particularly among the disillusioned youth


----------



## Redkite (Sep 19, 2015)

Actually I agree with Hobie.  The National Anthem isn't just about the Queen, it's an expression of pride in our country and its people, of affirming that you belong and are part of a shared ideal.  I think if somebody wants to play a part in leading the country, they need to share that pride and Britishness.  Making a point by refusing to sing the National Anthem is as dumb as trampling all over the Union Jack.  Not one of Corbyn's finer moments!


----------



## Vicsetter (Sep 19, 2015)

Redkite said:


> Actually I agree with Hobie.  The National Anthem isn't just about the Queen, it's an expression of pride in our country and its people, of affirming that you belong and are part of a shared ideal.  I think if somebody wants to play a part in leading the country, they need to share that pride and Britishness.  Making a point by refusing to sing the National Anthem is as dumb as trampling all over the Union Jack.  Not one of Corbyn's finer moments!



Quoted from: http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Symbols/NationalAnthem.aspx
In September 1745 the 'Young Pretender' to the British Throne, Prince Charles Edward Stuart, defeated the army of King George II at Prestonpans, near Edinburgh.

In a fit of patriotic fervour after news of Prestonpans had reached London, the leader of the band at the Theatre Royal, Drury Lane, arranged 'God Save The King' for performance after a play. It was a tremendous success and was repeated nightly.​
In what way is it a) not about the ruling monarch,
b) anything to do with our country or people.


----------



## ypauly (Sep 19, 2015)

It was not a political occasion, it was an opportunity to pay tribute to those brave people that gave their lives for our freedom. Politicians have long taken advantage of these things in order to claim some political points/win some votes as they have been seen to show respect.

To turn up and make a hash of it as Corbyn did is actually quite hard as with all these ceremonies all you have to do is the same thing as those standing beside you.

If he is against these things as in paying tribute to those served he would have been better to not turn up.

If he is against the monarchy, showing a total disrespect for the dead by not taking part and turning up looking like a tramp would also mean it would have been better to not turn up.


Corbyn has made politics interesting again and I am looking forward to how the whole left/right debate unfolds, but he really need to learn that some things in the eye of the public are above party politics and really not up for discussion and paying tribut to our dead is one of those things.


----------



## Northerner (Sep 19, 2015)

ypauly said:


> ...he really need to learn that some things in the eye of the public are above party politics and really not up for discussion and paying tribut to our dead is one of those things.



I'll repeat that many of the veterans thought that he was showing respect in a dignified manner, it's just that the press is unlikely to mention that. He's been leader for less than a week, with no slick PR team around him, and no backing from his MPs, give him a chance. And lets face it, many of those who were singing are the same people selling weapons to regimes that behead gay people and criminalise women for driving cars, or sending our troops off to illegal wars, poorly equipped  

I still believe that the whole row is trivial compared to the cut in benefits for 3m of the lowest paid people taking place on the same day.


----------



## HOBIE (Sep 19, 2015)

Churchill did his bit in the war, Thatcher sorted the Falklands. Toney Blar Blar sorted Afghan   This bloke will not SING never mind fight for us in Europe


----------



## Northerner (Sep 19, 2015)

I see Boris Johnson has criticised him for not going to the Rugby World Cup. Here's what he was doing:

http://i100.independent.co.uk/artic...d-of-going-to-the-rugby-world-cup--b11OAa3ILe


----------



## Redkite (Sep 19, 2015)

Vicsetter said:


> In what way is it a) not about the ruling monarch,
> b) anything to do with our country or people.



Yes the lyrics are about the Queen, but the National Anthem is used for occasions of national solidarity e.g. remembrance, and national celebration, e.g. Olympic gold medal ceremonies.  If we had a different anthem (e.g. Land of Hope and Glory, like the England football fans sing, or Hearts of Oak for the England rugby fans - or preferably something that includes Scotland, Wales and NI!), it would be the same thing - a song that every citizen should be proud to sing.


----------



## Worcester_Matt (Sep 19, 2015)

We get the politicians and political leaders that we deserve. God knows what we've done to deserve Cameron, IDS, Hunt and Boris Johnson. Pay back for the empire perhaps?


----------



## Mark T (Sep 19, 2015)

Worcester_Matt said:


> We get the politicians and political leaders that we deserve. God knows what we've done to deserve Cameron, IDS, Hunt and Boris Johnson. Pay back for the empire perhaps?


Oh dear political Karma!

Does that mean Trump will get elected?


----------



## ypauly (Sep 19, 2015)

Northerner said:


> I still believe that the whole row is trivial compared to the cut in benefits for 3m of the lowest paid people taking place on the same day.



It's not the same though, one is a political necessity(given your political viewpoint), the other was a political choice at a very inappropriate time where personal politics should have been left at the door.


----------



## AlisonM (Sep 19, 2015)

Mark T said:


> Oh dear political Karma!
> 
> Does that mean Trump will get elected?



 What a terrifying proposition! Imagine it, Chump in the hot seat with Sara Palin as his second-in. That should keep you all awake nights. 

I applaud Jez for not singing the dirge, it's a dreadfully depressing bit of jingoism, the vast majority of anthems are, often embarrassingly so. Except the fourth verse of course, the one about General Wade, at least that's honest. I should admit at this point that I get just as bothered singing Flower of Scotland (Roy came to regret ever writing that) and Hail Caledonia (Urggh, sentimental claptrap), and that thing in Welsh I know the words to but don't understand, at least that last has a decent tune. Why can't we do away with anthems altogether, in this day and age who needs them?

IMO, the hypocrisy started when Jez announced he'd sing it from now on, that disappointed me, he should stick to his beliefs. I think the press needs to get a grip as well, faced with a man of honour, this is the best they can do?


----------



## Vicsetter (Sep 19, 2015)

I am more appalled that the Labour party has a leader who will be nearly 70 by the next election (if he survives that long), he's probably just getting a bit confused, happens to us pensioners sometimes.


----------



## robert@fm (Sep 19, 2015)

HOBIE said:


> Churchill did his bit in the war, Thatcher sorted the Falklands. Toney Blar Blar sorted Afghan   This bloke will not SING never mind fight for us in Europe



I didn't know we were at war with Europe.


----------



## Worcester_Matt (Sep 20, 2015)

robert@fm said:


> I didn't know we were at war with Europe.



Some people have been at war with Europe all their lives. I think they think they're being patriotic, constantly referring back to "the War". Bet they wouldn't fight in one though!

On the point about 'leaving politics at the door'. How can you? Everything is political. If I were a political leader at such an event, and I were forced to stand beside Nick Griffin, Tommy Robinson or Nigel Farage, I couldn't. They co-opt the dead into their nasty little xenophobic hatred. I don't remember the cries of 'leave the politics at the door' when the right wing press hammered Michael Foot for his jacket at the cenotaph. Not many in the media or politics are leaving their politics at the door when they abuse Corbyn for standing in respectful silence.

Sadly the poppy and any act of remembrance have been hijacked by narrow-minded right-wing xenophobes who appear to delight in telling everyone exactly how they should behave. Doubt you'd find many of them in the trenches willing to put their heads in harms way. It's the only reason I have any respect for Prince Harry. He really put his life (at least part way) on the line.


----------



## ypauly (Sep 20, 2015)

Worcester_Matt said:


> Some people have been at war with Europe all their lives. I think they think they're being patriotic, constantly referring back to "the War". Bet they wouldn't fight in one though!
> 
> On the point about 'leaving politics at the door'. How can you? Everything is political. If I were a political leader at such an event, and I were forced to stand beside Nick Griffin, Tommy Robinson or Nigel Farage, I couldn't. They co-opt the dead into their nasty little xenophobic hatred. I don't remember the cries of 'leave the politics at the door' when the right wing press hammered Michael Foot for his jacket at the cenotaph. Not many in the media or politics are leaving their politics at the door when they abuse Corbyn for standing in respectful silence.
> 
> Sadly the poppy and any act of remembrance have been hijacked by narrow-minded right-wing xenophobes who appear to delight in telling everyone exactly how they should behave. Doubt you'd find many of them in the trenches willing to put their heads in harms way. It's the only reason I have any respect for Prince Harry. He really put his life (at least part way) on the line.


You name three men there that have not nor would they ever kill anybody, not only that they hate the thought of killing.

Yet We have seen pictures of Corbyn with people like Sinn Fein leaders and othe rterrorist groups, would you sit with them?


----------



## Northerner (Sep 20, 2015)

ypauly said:


> You name three men there that have not nor would they ever kill anybody, not only that they hate the thought of killing.
> 
> Yet We have seen pictures of Corbyn with people like Sinn Fein leaders and othe rterrorist groups, would you sit with them?



If no-one was prepared to sit with them, no peace would ever be achieved. As Churchill said 'To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war'. It takes great courage to be part of that process, precisely because of this kind of reaction. One person's terrorist might be another person's freedom fighter, depending on your perspective and beliefs. Some terrorists are 'insurgents', and vice versa. Iraq and Afghanistan have shown that you can't just defeat them like it used to be in wars gone by


----------



## Redkite (Sep 20, 2015)

Jeremy has been very naive in shunning the media.  Most newspapers in the UK are right wing and inevitably hostile to him, so he needs to be out there giving interviews and putting his case across, not relying on his fans on Twitter to counter the negative publicity.  He started out with no Press Officer and just kept turning down opportunities for interviews on neutral programmes like Radio 4's Today.  It's one thing declaring he doesn't want a spin doctor, but the result is that the newspapers are full of negative stories about his dodgy IRA connections, his extra-marital affair with Diane Abbott, his "snub" to the Queen and veterans (according to the Press), etc.  If he'd had the sense to assemble a team for liaison with the media, these stories could have been countered by positive ones.  Instead, you have a man that most ordinary Brits have never heard of, being publicised in all the ways he wouldn't want!  He needs to play the game and understand that you can't just shun the journalists.


----------



## Northerner (Sep 20, 2015)

I would agree, although I'm very sceptical that the majority of our press would print anything positive, or even neutral about him even if he was to risk his life to save a baby kitten  Also, it's been less than a week, he's been a VERY busy man and so much is new to him. Plus, he never expected to win and was busy during the campaign rallying and also keeping up with his commitments to his constituents - which he is still doing. Whatever you think of him and any stories that are being dragged up from his past, it's plain that he cares more about people than he does about himself and his image. I agree that the general public may not really be interested or aware, and therefore more prone to believing the twisted representation of him, but people of all political persuasions who do know remark on his honesty and his integrity. There are few politicians who would get that kind of universal approbation, but many who would get the opposite.

We say we want politicians to be more open, with less spin and obfuscation - we get one and there is a furore!


----------



## HOBIE (Sep 20, 2015)

Northerner said:


> If no-one was prepared to sit with them, no peace would ever be achieved. As Churchill said 'To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war'. It takes great courage to be part of that process, precisely because of this kind of reaction. One person's terrorist might be another person's freedom fighter, depending on your perspective and beliefs. Some terrorists are 'insurgents', and vice versa. Iraq and Afghanistan have shown that you can't just defeat them like it used to be in wars gone by



Toney Blar Blar should have watched the Russians in Afghanistan (years) before spending millions & lots of brave soldiers lives.  Labour spend spend


----------



## Northerner (Sep 20, 2015)

HOBIE said:


> Toney Blar Blar should have watched the Russians in Afghanistan (years) before spending millions & lots of brave soldiers lives.  Labour spend spend



In that case you should approve of Corbyn - he's a pacifist


----------



## ypauly (Sep 20, 2015)

Northerner said:


> If no-one was prepared to sit with them, no peace would ever be achieved. As Churchill said 'To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war'. It takes great courage to be part of that process, precisely because of this kind of reaction. One person's terrorist might be another person's freedom fighter, depending on your perspective and beliefs. Some terrorists are 'insurgents', and vice versa. Iraq and Afghanistan have shown that you can't just defeat them like it used to be in wars gone by



I agree but the other poster was saying that he WOULDN'T sit with particular people, Corbyn has said very much the same.

People like the ones mentioned need to see more "normality" in order to realise how extreme their views are and from what I see there are people that wouldn't sit with other until they start killing which is stupid in its own extreme.


----------



## ypauly (Sep 20, 2015)

A good article on Corbyn

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9637452/why-ive-finally-given-up-on-the-left/


----------



## ypauly (Sep 20, 2015)

Corbyn has already done a major u-turn on the EU and when he realises he can't do all those things he wants to while we are in he will have to u-turn all the way back as it would be illegal under EU law to renationalise the railways due to European Union directive 2012/34/EU.


----------



## Northerner (Sep 20, 2015)

ypauly said:


> Corbyn has already done a major u-turn on the EU and when he realises he can't do all those things he wants to while we are in he will have to u-turn all the way back as it would be illegal under EU law to renationalise the railways due to European Union directive 2012/34/EU.



He's put some proposals on the table and is open to debate, it's not a dictatorship. Why can't the railways not have franchises renewed? The East Coast line was run publically, very successfully and making money for the taxman.

As I've said before, the guy didn't expect to win, he's been in the job for a week, let's wait and see. I doubt that there are many of his critics who could do a better job in his position, and not a single one of them could have drawn in so many people or shook things up in the way he has (Farage maybe, although he is a one-trick pony).


----------



## ypauly (Sep 20, 2015)

Northerner said:


> He's put some proposals on the table and is open to debate, it's not a dictatorship. Why can't the railways not have franchises renewed? The East Coast line was run publically, very successfully and making money for the taxman.
> 
> As I've said before, the guy didn't expect to win, he's been in the job for a week, let's wait and see. I doubt that there are many of his critics who could do a better job in his position, and not a single one of them could have drawn in so many people or shook things up in the way he has (Farage maybe, although he is a one-trick pony).



It's not a proposal


He got elected to the party on the basis that he said that re-nationalisation is what he WILL do if elected as PM.

He has made a promise or at the very least, lead people to believe that he will do something that he can't do.


This annoys me because I would rather have a nationalised railway than be in the EU under its current format.

I already feel disappointed that he has already abandoned some of his principles. One of those being a proper EU.


----------



## Northerner (Sep 20, 2015)

I've decided to close this thread as I think the topic has been covered sufficiently now, with opposing views presented. These things can get out of hand and it's not really what we are here for


----------

