# Let's make change happen!



## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Hi everyone, I'm Nikki. I was diagnosed with pre-diabetes about 5 years ago. I thought going to a slimming club would help, but it didn't. I was scared and buried my head in the sand. Eventually, I developed full-blown type 2 and started the round of clinical appointments, eye tests etc. What could I do? I purchased a book with loads of pictures of food on plates in different portions. But whatever I did I was HUNGRY. I didn't know, at that time, that hunger is a symptom of diabetes. One day I came across the Ketogenic diet. I had learnt about it a decade ago at Gt Ormond Street hospital. My son was having tests, and someone explained how the Ketogenic diet helped children with epilepsy. I forgot all about it until I was searching the question _how can I stop hot flushes_! Now I am more knowledgable about how the body works, and how to control sugar levels. Once I had got on the ketogenic diet I felt so much better. I had more energy and I felt less depressed, clearer in my head, and my sugar levels dropped significantly. I was able to get off all my medication.

If you want to know how to get over the initial sugar withdrawal, which is physical hell, message me and I'll be happy to share how I did it.

Right now I'm a design student, doing my final major project. I want to create a café that supports people with diabetes. I'm sick of going into café's and being faced with beige cup cakes, bread stuff, and 'healthy' fruit drinks full of sugar. What can you eat when you go to a café? I'm NOT thinking about using insulin injections to cope. I want to make change, in café's , supermarkets, canteens and anywhere else where food is served. I'm developing a company identity, including logo, and all the elements you would see on packaging, etc.

In order to convince my University that this is a good idea, I need the backup of ordinary people who have diabetes and know how frustrating it is to find 'safe' food, especially a quick bite to eat while you're in town. So I appeal to your generous side, please take my survey, it's just 4 minutes of your time. I hope to raise enough support for my idea. I truly believe that this is a viable business idea, and you never know, it could get off the ground. Wouldn't that be great! To be able to walk into a café and know that whatever food is on offer, you will know it's safe to eat, it will clearly identify the number of carbs - in big bold numbers on the front of the package. Also, I want the café to offer support for diabetes. There will be a 'service' available, where you can talk with a dietician, get advice, and even get a painless BLOOD TEST, taken with a new gadget. (it's real!). You could become a member of the café club and get regular weigh-ins, guidance and support with your diet, and signposting to relevant partners such as podiatrists.

This is all an IDEA and I need to convince people. So I really need to know what the public think of it. PLEASE take my survey and help me gather the evidence. I am really excited about this idea and hope it takes off ...somehow. Good luck to everyone with their diabetes journey.

Thanks for reading this far....here's the survey: https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/coffeeshopconceptsurvey


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Hi everyone, I've just received permission to post a survey here. If you want to know the background please see my newbie post. Thanks for your support, it just takes 4 minutes. I genuinely think this could lead to significant changes on the high street and in supermarkets...what do YOU think?

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/coffeeshopconceptsurvey


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## SB2015 (Apr 29, 2019)

This has approval, so please help Nikki if you can.


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## Eddy Edson (Apr 29, 2019)

Personally, I would have zero interest in a "diabetes cafe". The concept sounds like a clinic or surgery with possibly better coffee.

What I want from a cafe is really good coffee. This is the make or break.

If I can also get some combination of reasonable salads, non-annoying music, non-annoying servers, hygiene, comfort, general absence of poxyness - that's a bonus. I definitely don't want a bunch of diabetes stuff. I hang out at the doc's place for that.


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## Ljc (Apr 29, 2019)

Question 7 do you purchase from coffee shops to 
A. Sit down 
B. Take away 
I cannot complete  this one or go on with the survey  as I do not frequent coffee shops.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Benny G said:


> I think you have an uphill battle.
> Good luck


Thanks Benny. What makes you say that?


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Ljc said:


> Question 7 do you purchase from coffee shops to
> A. Sit down
> B. Take away
> I cannot complete  this one or go on with the survey  as I do not frequent coffee shops.


That's perfectly alright. I'm interested to know why you don't visit coffee shops?


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Eddy Edson said:


> Personally, I would have zero interest in a "diabetes cafe". The concept sounds like a clinic or surgery with possibly better coffee.
> 
> What I want from a cafe is really good coffee. This is the make or break.
> 
> If I can also get some combination of reasonable salads, non-annoying music, non-annoying servers, hygiene, comfort, general absence of poxyness - that's a bonus. I definitely don't want a bunch of diabetes stuff. I hang out at the doc's place for that.


Perfectly understandable. The design will be more spa like, I am aware that a clinical look will be off-putting. I want it to be a place where people can relax and stop worrying about carbs.


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## Ljc (Apr 29, 2019)

When in my local town If I want a nice coffee and or something to eat I pop into the local cafe, it’s  well frequented by workers, builders  bikers, retired  folk like me and others in the know , I sit down to coffee made just the way I like it and if hungry a good hearty all day breakfast , egg, sausages, bacon , black pudding sadly I am unable to resist the fried bread to put my soft fried or poached egg on .  All this for less than £5
I would have a dinner there but it’s huge


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## Ljc (Apr 29, 2019)

MakeChange said:


> That's perfectly alright. I'm interested to know why you don't visit coffee shops?


They are far to expensive and I don’t enjoy the food/snacks on offer.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Ljc said:


> They are far to expensive and I don’t enjoy the food/snacks on offer.


That's interesting. If the food on offer was to your liking, and offered in small pots to take-away (this would lower the price) might you be interested in that? If you imagine your perfect coffee shop...what sort of food would it serve?? I'd really appreciate if you could take the survey ...your answers are what I need. Thanks


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## Eddy Edson (Apr 29, 2019)

Is there any difference between "cafe" and "coffee shop"? I always take them as being the same thing - a place which sells coffee and some kind of food.  Maybe I'm missing something?


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

@Eddy Edson No, you're not missing something. I think the same, cafe and coffee shop...it's all the same to me. Have you taken the survey?


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## Ljc (Apr 29, 2019)

MakeChange said:


> That's interesting. If the food on offer was to your liking, and offered in small pots to take-away (this would lower the price) might you be interested in that? If you imagine your perfect coffee shop...what sort of food would it serve?? I'd really appreciate if you could take the survey ...your answers are what I need. Thanks


Have a look at post 7


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## Ljc (Apr 29, 2019)

Eddy Edson said:


> Is there any difference between "cafe" and "coffee shop"? I always take them as being the same thing - a place which sells coffee and some kind of food.  Maybe I'm missing something?


To me a coffee shop is  Costas or similar


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## Eddy Edson (Apr 29, 2019)

Ljc said:


> To me a coffee shop is  Costas or similar



Oh, got it. I rarely eat from that kind of place. No surprise if the coffee is poxy also.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Ljc said:


> To me a coffee shop is  Costas or similar


Yes, Costa is no.1 in the UK. Their strategy is continuity and comfort throughout. My strategy is based on comfort, relaxation and information. Hope you've taken the survey.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Eddy Edson said:


> Oh, got it. I rarely eat from that kind of place. No surprise if the coffee is poxy also.


The concept is to provide a place that you would enjoy, feel safe with the carb count, and find professionals you could talk with. Hope you've taken the survey.


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## Eddy Edson (Apr 29, 2019)

MakeChange said:


> @Eddy Edson No, you're not missing something. I think the same, cafe and coffee shop...it's all the same to me. Have you taken the survey?



I did take the survey, but I doubt I'm the target audience. I want really good coffee and as a bonus some simple salads, and I don't want diabetes stuff.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Okay, thanks Eddy.


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## Pumper_Sue (Apr 29, 2019)

MakeChange said:


> The concept is to provide a place that you would enjoy, feel safe with the carb count, and find professionals you could talk with. Hope you've taken the survey.



I think you will find it a legal requirement to provide nutritional values of food on the menu. You are really having a larf re the professionals aren't you? Please tell me you are.


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## Drummer (Apr 29, 2019)

The few times I have been in places selling coffee and tea as their main attraction the coffee has been so vile that I thought they were having a laugh at my expense.
I used to work for Allied Lyons as a taster, so I know when spent beans have been included with the ones burnt to a crisp.
I also know when I am given something other than cream to put in it - Elm Lea is to cream what spreadable is to real butter.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Pumper_Sue said:


> I think you will find it a legal requirement to provide nutritional values of food on the menu. You are really having a larf re the professionals aren't you? Please tell me you are.


Hi Sue, I'm aware of the law re labelling. This project is a pilot, and the survey will help to gain interest. I would love it to become real, food labelling is inadequate for people with diabetes.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Drummer said:


> The few times I have been in places selling coffee and tea as their main attraction the coffee has been so vile that I thought they were having a laugh at my expense.
> I used to work for Allied Lyons as a taster, so I know when spent beans have been included with the ones burnt to a crisp.
> I also know when I am given something other than cream to put in it - Elm Lea is to cream what spreadable is to real butter.


I quite agree!


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## nonethewiser (Apr 29, 2019)

No matter what diet you follow you can always find something to eat in a cafe, don't want to put a downer on your business venture but can't see it working.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Hi None the Wiser, great name!
Personally I can never find anything to eat in a cafe, because everything on offer is high in carbohydrates. I follow a low-carb diet. I would prefer cafés to offer options that are suitable, for instance, egg mayonaise with a salad. Salads that are full of interesting things, not just lettuce and tomato, but spinach, cucumber, carrot, radish, nuts and seeds. Served with mackerel, or rollmops, or prawns, or any number of fresh protein. Cheese is another option, there is nothing wrong with healthy fat if you are following a low carb diet. This is about choice. If you want to eat low-carb, my cafe concept will be the place to go.


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## nonethewiser (Apr 29, 2019)

MakeChange said:


> Hi None the Wiser, great name!
> Personally I can never find anything to eat in a cafe, because everything on offer is high in carbohydrates. I follow a low-carb diet. I would prefer cafés to offer options that are suitable, for instance, egg mayonaise with a salad. Salads that are full of interesting things, not just lettuce and tomato, but spinach, cucumber, carrot, radish, nuts and seeds. Served with mackerel, or rollmops, or prawns, or any number of fresh protein. Cheese is another option, there is nothing wrong with healthy fat if you are following a low carb diet. This is about choice. If you want to eat low-carb, my cafe concept will be the place to go.



Your obviously visiting the big chain coffee shops, all the cafes I've been in offer all the foods you have listed, last week had a cheese n onion omelette with a side salad & coleslaw, came with a slice of granary bread with it but you could just leave that out. Other times just have a sandwich and occasionally a full english brekkie. Afraid to say this, but any cafe labelled diabetic or low carb I would be giving a wide berth.


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## Eddy Edson (Apr 29, 2019)

MakeChange said:


> Hi None the Wiser, great name!
> Personally I can never find anything to eat in a cafe, because everything on offer is high in carbohydrates. I follow a low-carb diet. I would prefer cafés to offer options that are suitable, for instance, egg mayonaise with a salad. Salads that are full of interesting things, not just lettuce and tomato, but spinach, cucumber, carrot, radish, nuts and seeds. Served with mackerel, or rollmops, or prawns, or any number of fresh protein. Cheese is another option, there is nothing wrong with healthy fat if you are following a low carb diet. This is about choice. If you want to eat low-carb, my cafe concept will be the place to go.



Different world! Where I live, here in Oz, there are 6 cafes within a half-kilometre radius which fit that kind of description.

But here's the thing: all of these survive on the quality of the coffee, not the food. That's what people go there for, and that's why they can charge higher prices than the other half-dozen or so sandwich joints and chain-outlets in the same area that sell crap.


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## Maz2 (Apr 29, 2019)

I am glad I am not the only one sick and tired of what is on offer in cafes. I do find in most of them I can have a salad or an omelette although 95 percent of the food is high glycaemic carbs.  I have though been into a few where there is only high carbs on offer but I usually leave.  

I get irritated too when \I go out for a meal at being served white bread a lot of the time.  I just leave it.  I also ask restaurants not to give me potatoes and to offer me extra veg which they generally will.

I think it is hypocritical of the media and Government moaning at the rising incidence of obesity and diabetes when they do not say anything about the food that is on offer in most places.  Unfortunately, I think the general consensus of opinion still appears to be high carb and low fat is the order of the day and is healthy for everyone.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Hi Maz. Quite right! If I get enough support I will raise a petition within my project.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Hi Eddy, I love a good quality coffee. I would like to be able to buy a boiled egg instead of a shortbread biscuit though. The cafés and food outlets are forgetting about people with diabetes.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

nonethewiser said:


> Your obviously visiting the big chain coffee shops, all the cafes I've been in offer all the foods you have listed, last week had a cheese n onion omelette with a side salad & coleslaw, came with a slice of granary bread with it but you could just leave that out. Other times just have a sandwich and occasionally a full english brekkie. Afraid to say this, but any cafe labelled diabetic or low carb I would be giving a wide berth.


Great choices, that's the sort of thing I do. However, I want to be able to walk into a place and know that everything on the menu is suitable for ME. I don't want to have to do, and I don't want to be faced with bread rolls, or having to ask for adaptations to the menu. Hope you've taken my survey.


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## Madeline (Apr 29, 2019)

Erm Costa’s are already trialling salads and add on items like poached eggs. I imagine the other chains will follow suit.  To be brutally honest, I never went to coffee shops or cafes to eat, I went for a good quality coffee. There’s only 3 things I’m interesting in re cafes and coffee shops, and that’s good coffee, good hygiene, and good loos.

I hate spas with a passion. 

Sorry to be so negative. I just can’t think of anything more depressing than a diabetes cafe. I’d rather go home and eat.


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## Matt Cycle (Apr 29, 2019)

I'm assuming this is aimed at T2?  It's just that it states you're looking for 'ordinary people with diabetes'.  I'm an ordinary person with diabetes but have T1 and have been for over 30 years and use insuIin.  Bread rolls, cakes no problem.  I don't have a need for 'safe' food or ketogenic diets.  I don't need my BMI checked or require any diet advice.  I'd just be looking to go in and relax and have nice coffee.


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## nonethewiser (Apr 29, 2019)

MakeChange said:


> Great choices, that's the sort of thing I do. However, I want to be able to walk into a place and know that everything on the menu is suitable for ME. I don't want to have to do, and I don't want to be faced with bread rolls, or having to ask for adaptations to the menu. Hope you've taken my survey.



Trouble is, what might be suitable for you might not be for the next person.

Not having bread, or any other carby foods on the menu is only appealing to a niche market, would you get the footfall and make the business viable, you have to remember that the majority of people don't exclude carbs in their diet, even those with diabetes.  Personally I would rather visit a all inclusive cafe coffee shop that caters for all and not a minority, probably why I would avoid a vegan vegetarian establishment as the choices are limited.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Matt Cycle said:


> I'm assuming this is aimed at T2?  It's just that it states you're looking for 'ordinary people with diabetes'.  I'm an ordinary person with diabetes but have T1 and have been for over 30 years and use insuIin.  Bread rolls, cakes no problem.  I don't have a need for 'safe' food or ketogenic diets.  I don't need my BMI checked or require any diet advice.  I'd just be looking to go in and relax and have nice coffee.


Thanks Matt for your reply. Yes, I have been aiming this at type 2. But I am not excluding type 1 or other, I welcome everyone's opinion. This cafe concept is really aimed at people who prefer low-carb options. Enjoy your cakes!


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## Madeline (Apr 29, 2019)

Also I umm rather like beige food, and if I _were_ to eat out I’d go for something ‘bad’ as a treat. Sausage in a roll in the hospital cafe is my treat after diabetes clinic, I really look forward to it. 

And yes, we are all different. And it’s different in the most illogical way imaginable. Carbs and I do not get on at all, yet for some inexplicable reason I can scoff cinnamon Gifflar buns with absolutely no effect whatsoever. Defies logic.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

nonethewiser said:


> Trouble is, what might be suitable for you might not be for the next person.
> 
> Not having bread, or any other carby foods on the menu is only appealing to a niche market, would you get the footfall and make the business viable, you have to remember that the majority of people don't exclude carbs in their diet, even those with diabetes.  Personally I would rather visit a all inclusive cafe coffee shop that caters for all and not a minority, probably why I would avoid a vegan vegetarian establishment as the choices are limited.


Hi Nonethewiser, I agree, and yes this concept is going to be aimed at a niche market. It's great to hear everyone's opinion.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Madeline said:


> Also I umm rather like beige food, and if I _were_ to eat out I’d go for something ‘bad’ as a treat. Sausage in a roll in the hospital cafe is my treat after diabetes clinic, I really look forward to it.
> 
> And yes, we are all different. And it’s different in the most illogical way imaginable. Carbs and I do not get on at all, yet for some inexplicable reason I can scoff cinnamon Gifflar buns with absolutely no effect whatsoever. Defies logic.


LOL. I love beige food, it just doesn't love me. If I were to have a sausage roll or cinnamon bun it would make me feel really bad, unfortunately.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Madeline said:


> Erm Costa’s are already trialling salads and add on items like poached eggs. I imagine the other chains will follow suit.  To be brutally honest, I never went to coffee shops or cafes to eat, I went for a good quality coffee. There’s only 3 things I’m interesting in re cafes and coffee shops, and that’s good coffee, good hygiene, and good loos.
> 
> I hate spas with a passion.
> 
> Sorry to be so negative. I just can’t think of anything more depressing than a diabetes cafe. I’d rather go home and eat.


Hi Madeline, Costas are introducing these items because they are adapting to the needs of the market. People want healthier options, Mintel research informs us. So my cafe will offer all low-carb options and non of the temptations. It's a safe place to eat for people who want low-carb options. It won't actually be a spa, but it might look a bit spa like in its furniture and interior design.


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## nonethewiser (Apr 29, 2019)

MakeChange said:


> Hi Nonethewiser, I agree, and yes this concept is going to be aimed at a niche market. It's great to hear everyone's opinion.


 
Go see the chambers of commerce for good business advice, they even help you market a new business idea, whatever you do good luck,


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## Docb (Apr 29, 2019)

May I suugest that you link up with a business studies student before you get to carried away?  A few hard facts about the issues surrounding running small retail businesses in general and catering businesses in particular would not go amiss in your thinking.  I ran my own retail business (not catering) as a retirement project.....


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Docb said:


> May I suugest that you link up with a business studies student before you get to carried away?  A few hard facts about the issues surrounding running small retail businesses in general and catering businesses in particular would not go amiss in your thinking.  I ran my own retail business (not catering) as a retirement project.........


Thanks for your suggestions.  This is a design project, and I have to carry out real research. It's purely an idea at the moment, and I'm interested in how people with diabetes feel about the concept. It's interesting to find out what people think. Of course it would be amazing if someone took an interest in the business model, as a stakeholder for instance. Perhaps someone will be interested once I present and exhibit my designs. At that stage I would seek advice. I'm not planning on running a café, I'm a designer, but if someone wanted to run with my idea that would be amazing.


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## Madeline (Apr 29, 2019)

The thing is, and I can only speak for myself, obviously, diabetes isn’t _me. _It’s just some stupidly annoying thing that I have to live with.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Madeline said:


> The thing is, and I can only speak for myself, obviously, diabetes isn’t _me. _It’s just some stupidly annoying thing that I have to live with.


Me too. I totally get it. I just want people to know that this is not a 'diabetes' cafe, but a cafe where, if you want you can get some support. It will look like a relaxing cafe. The thing is the high street needs to change to experiential to draw in the younger crowd. We need to make use of the spaces that not being used. Having a place to go where you can relax, eat, have a coffee and know that you're probably with people who understand might make you feel more like part of a group. My idea includes membership, so that every week or so you can get your blood sugar levels checked, weight checked, feet checked. etc. It would be tailored to your needs. It saves you going to the GP/clinic. You would get more advice from the dieticians that are partners. I have to add this is Fictitious and is only a design project. (got carried away there)


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## Ditto (Apr 29, 2019)

That time I went into Costa at Urmston there wasn't one thing I could get to eat so I just went with the carby stuff. I wouldn't do that now, I'd have to go without. Same with Greggs, there's nothing I can eat in there. 'They' said there were salads but I didn't see any without pasta. If I go in the local sit down chippy I can get a 'breakfast' but I have to be vigilant and tell them no beans, no toast, etc. It's all hassle. I think people might be too embarrassed to go into a 'diabetic' cafe, but a healthy options cafe aimed at anybody who wants to be healthy and are maybe 'on a diet' would be okay imho. Everybody's always on a diet. Every Monday.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Lol. So true! You are speaking my language. This is why I think we need this type of eatery, a new concept. CARB CONSCIOUS. It's about a cafe, that offers low-carb food. For everyone. It just so happens that you can get advice (on diet/nutrition/diabetes) there if you want it.


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## MakeChange (Apr 29, 2019)

Please take the survey if you haven't done so already. It's 4 minutes.
https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/coffeeshopconceptsurvey


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## chaoticcar (Apr 30, 2019)

If I go into a cafe or coffee shop I would be with my husband of maybe daughter and family .They would be very disappointed with a  no carb meal or snack so it would be a 1visit only 
   Carol


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## Pumper_Sue (Apr 30, 2019)

MakeChange said:


> Lol. So true! You are speaking my language. This is why I think we need this type of eatery, a new concept. CARB CONSCIOUS. It's about a cafe, that offers low-carb food. For everyone. It just so happens that you can get advice (on diet/nutrition/diabetes) there if you want it.


Have you actually even thought of the cost of employing someone who is professionally trained in nutrition?

Perhaps you could also open a nut free café or a gluten free café and label a few more people in the process.

There is so much choice on menus these days that there always something available for most needs.

Was it you or someone else who started a topic like this a while back?


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## Ljc (Apr 30, 2019)

Actually I have more problems eating out due to Lactose intolerance than I ever do with my diabetes, if I want to be really naughty , which I am occasionally I’ll inject a bit more insulin, however if I have a tiny bit too much of something with milk in I will be mainlining Imodium in a few hours and feeling ill for days.  

Speaking personally I wouldn’t be at all interested in being able to see a dietitian or any other medic outside of my diabetic clinic/ reviews , gp appointments or renal clinic at the hospital 
Diabetes when it’s playing fair is actually a very small part of my life , however when it’s not playing fair I want to wring it’s neck , hang it up and cut it’s wotsits off, not necessarily in that order lol


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## Drummer (Apr 30, 2019)

I just tried to take the survey - got as far as the third question - what on earth is meant by lifestyle and its quality?


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## Lucy Honeychurch (Apr 30, 2019)

Drummer said:


> I just tried to take the survey - got as far as the third question - what on earth is meant by lifestyle and its quality?



Glad I'm not the only one on here who thought that too  I didn't proceed due to this.


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## Madeline (Apr 30, 2019)

Quality of life maybe? But really that’s not quantifiable. What I consider to be a good quality of life would be appalling to someone else and vice versa. Most people would think mine appalling, I’m housebound, disabled enough to receive enhanced PIP for both mobility and daily living, but I’m _happy. _I appreciate what I do have, and know I’m lucky to be here.

But what would someone else feel like, living like that? Cooped up in the house 24/7/365 unable to really do much more than read, watch tv, and potter about? I’ve only just reached my 50s ffs. It’s just not quantifiable imo, there’s no measure.


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## MakeChange (Apr 30, 2019)

Pumper_Sue said:


> Have you actually even thought of the cost of employing someone who is professionally trained in nutrition?
> 
> Perhaps you could also open a nut free café or a gluten free café and label a few more people in the process.
> 
> ...


Hi Sue, This is my first time in the forum and a new thread. I agree, choice is becoming an important factor for businesses these days. I must admit I would prefer menu choices to offer more low-carb options, otherwise I'm having to tell the waitress can they hold the dressing, forget the bread, potatoes, swede, are you going to charge me the same? Or the salad is just lettuce and tomato. Diversifying to attract the vegan, gluten free and allergy prone is not a business model I would follow as it tends to lead to a dilution of the message. The message is low-carb food and is for a niche market, ie. people who want low-carb food. Yes I have considered the cost of employing professional dieticians, in fact it would be a partnership model. But let's stay on track with the initial question. Are you fed up with the food on offer in coffee shops? 

I'm keen to know what people feel are the difficulties of obtaining food on the high street and how they navigate those problems.


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## MakeChange (Apr 30, 2019)

Drummer said:


> I just tried to take the survey - got as far as the third question - what on earth is meant by lifestyle and its quality?


The quality of lifestyle question is about how you feel about the quality of your life, the type of life you lead. By comparing the words available which one do you feel you belong to, there are no right or wrong answers.


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## MakeChange (Apr 30, 2019)

Ljc said:


> Actually I have more problems eating out due to Lactose intolerance than I ever do with my diabetes, if I want to be really naughty , which I am occasionally I’ll inject a bit more insulin, however if I have a tiny bit too much of something with milk in I will be mainlining Imodium in a few hours and feeling ill for days.
> 
> Speaking personally I wouldn’t be at all interested in being able to see a dietitian or any other medic outside of my diabetic clinic/ reviews , gp appointments or renal clinic at the hospital
> Diabetes when it’s playing fair is actually a very small part of my life , however when it’s not playing fair I want to wring it’s neck , hang it up and cut it’s wotsits off, not necessarily in that order lol


That's interesting, I wonder, if the dietitian you saw at the new cafe was someone who also saw you at your appointments would that persuade you to go to the cafe? You could pop in to see them and have a nice sit down with a cuppa and some healthy food at the same time. Like getting some extra special attention.


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## MakeChange (Apr 30, 2019)

chaoticcar said:


> If I go into a cafe or coffee shop I would be with my husband of maybe daughter and family .They would be very disappointed with a  no carb meal or snack so it would be a 1visit only
> Carol


Hi Carol, I have thought about that scenario. It does seem unfair that people with diabetics have to fit in with the 'carbs not a problem' world all the time. The type of food that my cafe would offer would be substantially filling, tasty and interesting, including treats such as cream, cheese, bacon, sausages, eggs, pate. I'm sure 'carbs not a problem' people would be able to eat well and be able to forego the carbs without much of a problem. The information available might also persuade them to adopt a carb-free day once in a while.


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## MakeChange (Apr 30, 2019)

That's great Benny. But what I'm trying to do here is introduce a movement that will create permanent change. Why do we have to substitute traditional fare for a side-salad that is, let's face it, unappetising, uninspired, unexciting and unsatisfying? Designers are on this planet to make change and that's what my project is all about. I am challenging the status quo.  I want manufacturers to stop adding sugar and other undesirable ingredients to foods. You would not believe the amount of food, including savoury that has sugar added to it. People all over the world are suffering from a western-style diet, people on small islands in the pacific are the most obese in the world due to an influx of fast foods. There has to be change. My concept is a small step in the right direction. I'm not a person who is prepared to accept a side-salad. I want real change and this idea, which includes packaging changes, is a start. (steps down from soap box). Thanks for contributing to the conversation.  I'm also interested in the struggles you feel you face as a person with diabetes. Afterall, in my presentation I need the audience to clearly understand what life is like with diabetes and what you would like to see change.


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## Ljc (Apr 30, 2019)

MakeChange said:


> That's interesting, I wonder, if the dietitian you saw at the new cafe was someone who also saw you at your appointments would that persuade you to go to the cafe? You could pop in to see them and have a nice sit down with a cuppa and some healthy food at the same time. Like getting some extra special attention.


I have had very bad experiences with dieticians and now avoid them like the plague


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## MakeChange (Apr 30, 2019)

@ Ljc Lin, what was the problem if you don't mind me asking?


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## Stevec189 (Apr 30, 2019)

Done the survey. The problem is going out to eat or drink should be about having a bit of a treat. Something you don’t or can’t do at home. Cafe would suggest food but it must include cake or my wife won’t go. I understand your thought process I am a type 1 for over 40 years and the thought of going somewhere with advice on what to eat when your out relaxing fills me with horror. Now as a hospital cafe instead of the usual (now) Starbucks or Costa......would still need cake and crap for Drs and nurses but would suit the low carb and information sharing I think you are seeking. As a concept I am not sure it would fly but I am the man who thought cat cafes wouldn’t take off!


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## Ljc (Apr 30, 2019)

MakeChange said:


> @ Ljc Lin, what was the problem if you don't mind me asking?



No I don’t mind at all 
Mostly their  attitude, I know more than you do you must do as I say,  I must eat a certain amount of carbs with every meal , must have three meals a day plus snacks and now I am on insulin which I knew I should have been on a long time ago and fought for I am a bad diabetic ,
Yes I’ve had many a fine battle with a dietitian or three and now it’s safer for them if they avoid me.


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## MakeChange (Apr 30, 2019)

Stevec189 said:


> Done the survey. The problem is going out to eat or drink should be about having a bit of a treat. Something you don’t or can’t do at home. Cafe would suggest food but it must include a cake or my wife won’t go. I understand your thought process I am a type 1 for over 40 years and the thought of going somewhere with advice on what to eat when your out relaxing fills me with horror. Now as a hospital cafe instead of the usual (now) Starbucks or Costa......would still need cake and crap for Drs and nurses but would suit the low carb and information sharing I think you are seeking. As a concept I am not sure it would fly but I am the man who thought cat cafes wouldn’t take off!


Lol, love the cat café idea, not sure about the reality.  Your idea of going out for a treat is fine. You're in the 'treat' camp. The cake is what it's all about. Relaxing and enjoying being out is also a great reason to go out to eat. However, my target market is specifically those who seek low-carb foods, the cakes fill them with horror. What do you mean by hospital café? Do you mean at the actual hospitals, or create a cafe that looks like a hospital? You know there are plenty of people who don't have diabetes and are walking around with pre-diabetes and don't yet know it. Some of them might be looking for healthier food options. Wouldn't it be great to alert them to the problems of diabetes, in non-intrusive ways, in a relaxed environment? They could choose to find out what their blood sugar levels are, and what they could do about it IF they wish. Some people have a fear of finding out and won't go to the doctors. Being in a place where you are surprised to find unexpected information can help you overcome those initial steps.


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## MakeChange (Apr 30, 2019)

Ljc said:


> No I don’t mind at all
> Mostly their  attitude, I know more than you do you must do as I say,  I must eat a certain amount of carbs with every meal , must have three meals a day plus snacks and now I am on insulin which I knew I should have been on a long time ago and fought for I am a bad diabetic ,
> Yes I’ve had many a fine battle with a dietitian or three and now it’s safer for them if they avoid me.


That sounds fascinating! I think many of us are put off by people who dictate. My cafe concept will be about advising, not dictating. And only advising when its asked for, for example, if you thought okay I'll give them a try, they would listen to what your problems areas are, and come up with a personalised plan to suit you. Even if you could only manage to make one small change, then so be it, they would be there to support your journey. (Have you got any gossip?!)


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## MakeChange (Apr 30, 2019)

Benny G said:


> I studied graphic design, years ago, we used to do projects like the one you are doing.
> The real world is different to the classroom.
> Some of my old class mates started a catering business and twenty years later are still in that business. They told me that people eat what they want to eat. That the palete of the average man on the street is rather basic, which is why coffee and a kitkat is so appealing.
> You are directly competing with coffee and a kitkat, coffee and crisps, or maybe a slice of cake. Low carb is a massive turn off to the majority of people.


I would like to see the data for that statement.


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## MakeChange (Apr 30, 2019)

Benny G said:


> Which statement?


The one that sounds like personal opinion. "Low carb is a massive turn off to the majority of people"


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## Madeline (Apr 30, 2019)

I think you’ve only got to read the threads on the Newbie section to see that the #1 issue most have is total resentment at having to give up all the lovely carby stuff.


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## MakeChange (Apr 30, 2019)

Madeline said:


> I think you’ve only got to read the threads on the Newbie section to see that the #1 issue most have is total resentment at having to give up all the lovely carby stuff.


Quite agree, I think I buried my head in the sand for a few years. In the end I felt it was my own fault for getting diabetes, with the way I ate. I couldn't stand how sick I felt so I started to find out how I could help myself. For me its about low-carb, but the reward is I get to eat CREAM!!


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## MakeChange (May 1, 2019)

Benny G said:


> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-carbohydrate_diet
> 
> There are very few doctors who recommend low carb even for diabetic patients or to help battle obesity.
> For me LCHF works and makes complete sense, but the majority of people follow main stream medical advice which states that lowcarb is a fad diet and bad for health.


Most people would think that the NHS guidelines are the right ones to follow. But now, the NHS is changing and introducing 800 cal shakes. They have recently awarded one of their GPs for some outstanding work with diabetic patients on his exerimental low-carb diet which reversed diabetes. Dr Mosley has recently brought out a book which relies on research, he advocates a low-carb lifestyle. WHO recommends we cut the carbs to the equivalent of 10 teaspoons a day for health benefits. Whenever someone comes out with something that is different it challenges people's comfort zones and their own perception. They either agree, which means they are comfortable with the change, or they disagree and stick to what they feel comfortable with. I am stiring up the debate for my own personal gain. That's all. 

Tell me about your difficulties with diabetes.


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## Madeline (May 1, 2019)

MakeChange said:


> That's interesting, I wonder, if the dietitian you saw at the new cafe was someone who also saw you at your appointments would that persuade you to go to the cafe? You could pop in to see them and have a nice sit down with a cuppa and some healthy food at the same time. Like getting some extra special attention.


You’re not going to get an NHS dietician to do freelance in a cafe. You’re talking about a full time dietician and a full time nurse in a cafe - how on Earth are you going to pay comparative salaries for them, plus all the normal staff salaries and overheads for a cafe? People struggle to make profits as it is, adding in two extra salaries for qualified medical staff is simply never going to work as a business plan. And the food, carbs are the cheap stuff, the produce bill alone is going to be so much higher than a bog standard cafe that you’ll have to price yourself out of the market.


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## Madeline (May 1, 2019)

I had to fight to do the Newcastle diet and fund it entirely myself.


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## MakeChange (May 1, 2019)

Madeline said:


> You’re not going to get an NHS dietician to do freelance in a cafe. You’re talking about a full time dietician and a full time nurse in a cafe - how on Earth are you going to pay comparative salaries for them, plus all the normal staff salaries and overheads for a cafe? People struggle to make profits as it is, adding in two extra salaries for qualified medical staff is simply never going to work as a business plan. And the food, carbs are the cheap stuff, the produce bill alone is going to be so much higher than a bog standard cafe that you’ll have to price yourself out of the market.


LOL thanks for the business advice. I have a stakeholder who has a lot of money. I have professional dieticians who work privately and the business model does not necessarily 'employ' them. I have a target market who will pay over the top prices for quality food. I have an attitude that it is not always about making a profit. What if this was a charitable organisation? Loving the varied opinions I'm getting here.


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## MakeChange (May 1, 2019)

Let's return to the initial question: 'safe' food in public places? What do you think of my idea - PLEASE TAKE THE SURVEY to let me know.


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## Madeline (May 1, 2019)

MakeChange said:


> LOL thanks for the business advice. I have a stakeholder who has a lot of money. I have professional dieticians who work privately and the business model does not necessarily 'employ' them.


God you are rude. I’m out, what a load of BS, yesterday you were a design student trying to persuade your uni to get on board, and overnight you’ve gained a moneybags stakeholder and ‘professional’ dieticians (Hint: dietician is a protected title, you can’t have a non professional one). And we ARE your target market, on the biggest diabetics focused forum in the UK, and you’re not exactly creating enthusiasm so far.


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## MakeChange (May 1, 2019)

Benny G said:


> That's the point. Do a little canvassing of normal average people. There is no debate, there is no stirring up, there is only confusion and bewilderment at the very suggestion of low carb.
> 
> Good luck.


It would help if you could tell me more about where you think the confusion and bewilderment comes from. I have my personal take on this, which the project addresses, but am open to hearing the opinion of others.


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## MakeChange (May 1, 2019)

Madeline said:


> God you are rude. I’m out, what a load of BS, yesterday you were a design student trying to persuade your uni to get on board, and overnight you’ve gained a moneybags stakeholder and ‘professional’ dieticians (Hint: dietician is a protected title, you can’t have a non-professional one). And we ARE your target market, on the biggest diabetics focused forum in the UK, and you’re not exactly creating enthusiasm so far.


I'm really sorry you feel that way. I am a design student, and I have to present an idea for my Uni. The final major project is design related, but designers don't just make visuals we come up with ideas. My idea is a new concept in cafés. I have to think about it from every angle. If this was a business what would it include, how would I convince a bank to lend me money, what is the business model, all sorts of considerations? When I say professional dieticians I mean qualified and registered, I have had to research every aspect of my idea. Naturally, at the beginning of this thread, I wouldn't want to explain everything and bore the readers to tears. Things unfold. I thought we were getting on quite well, but obviously, I've triggered a nerve with you. I can only apologise if I've upset you, it was not my intention to do so. I have to disagree about the target market though. The target market is part of my project, I decide who I am aiming my design at, and the design has to be appropriate for that.  Perhaps I have caused confusion because two things are going on here. 1) I came here to ask for support, for people to give me their opinion and complete my survey. 2) I am talking about a fictitious business concept. There will be no low-carb cafe. There are no real stakeholders. It is all part of my imaginative business idea that I am creating as part of a degree project.

I appreciate your feedback, and I hope you understand that sometimes it's difficult to explain things in short version, online. Clearly I'm not good at that. Let's hope I don't make a mess of my final presentation. 

ps. I do appreciate hearing about your experiences though, even if it's for purely selfish reasons...like gaining insights for my final major project.


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## Eddy Edson (May 1, 2019)

Benny G said:


> The historical and cultural significance of carbohydrates is obvious.
> "Gives us this day, our daily bread..."
> 
> The backing and promotion of carb based food by both the medical community and mainstream media.
> ...



OT, but you should read the great, recently departed Gene Wolfe's "Soldier in the Mist" books. The main character has a head injury causing him to forget everything before the time he woke up. He carries a scroll on which each day he frantically tries to record everything, to maintain some shred of continuity. You're the opposite!


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## Northerner (May 1, 2019)

I would say that, whilst a diet which is good for people with diabetes (of any type) is good for anyone, only around 6-8% of the population have a diagnosis, so the direct appeal of a low-carb (or carb-counted) café would be a very limited market. You'd need to have really good products to draw in Joe and Jane Public who were just interested in appealing and tasty items - people with fully-functioning pancreases don't really have to worry about what they eat, especially if it's a 'treat' rather than something for daily sustenance.

It does raise an interesting point though, which reminded me of a member here a few years back who couldn't find anything suitable to eat at her gym café after a work out, and the proprietors wouldn't let her bring her own food in. I wrote a poem about it 


I’m so sorry madam, you can’t eat that here,
We’ve a rule against bringing in food,
You’ll find what we offer is healthy and fresh,
So don’t eat your own – that’s just rude!

Our menu is here, please read and you’ll see
The wonderful things that we sell!
Both savoury and sweet, vegetarian and meat,
And a wide range of soft drinks as well!

For our sandwiches we use only fine refined bread,
As white as the snows before Spring!
We can fill it with Spam, crispy bacon or jam,
Or sausages fit for a king!

Ah! I see our pork pies have just caught your eye!
They’re served with a big plate of chips!
Come on, don’t deny that you’d love one to try!
I can see that you’re licking your lips!

What’s that? A nice salad? No, I don’t think we do,
There’s never much call for that here…
We’ve some nice battered fish you could have if you wish – 
We make all our batter with beer!

Now, to wash it all down, then you could go to town
With a full sugar energy drink!
The cups are so big if you fell in you’d drown,
And there’s no finer tonic – don’t you think?

What’s that? You’ll decline? Well, I feel I must say
That you look like you need a good meal!
For you’re thinner each day, like you’re wasting away,
Just imagine how much better you’d feel!


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## SB2015 (May 1, 2019)

Northerner said:


> I would say that, whilst a diet which is good for people with diabetes (of any type) is good for anyone, only around 6-8% of the population have a diagnosis, so the direct appeal of a low-carb (or carb-counted) café would be a very limited market. You'd need to have really good products to draw in Joe and Jane Public who were just interested in appealing and tasty items - people with fully-functioning pancreases don't really have to worry about what they eat, especially if it's a 'treat' rather than something for daily sustenance.
> 
> It does raise an interesting point though, which reminded me of a member here a few years back who couldn't find anything suitable to eat at her gym café after a work out, and the proprietors wouldn't let her bring her own food in. I wrote a poem about it
> 
> ...



Have you thought about putting your poems together in a book?  
Or have I missed this and you have already done it


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## Northerner (May 1, 2019)

SB2015 said:


> Have you thought about putting your poems together in a book?
> Or have I missed this and you have already done it


Hehe! If I had a pound for every time it's been suggested   I think I will do eventually, but I'm a dreadful procrastinator!


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## Drummer (May 1, 2019)

MakeChange said:


> The quality of lifestyle question is about how you feel about the quality of your life, the type of life you lead. By comparing the words available which one do you feel you belong to, there are no right or wrong answers.


I still have no idea what you are asking.
You are still using the same term - quality of life - and I cannot fathom what you mean by it. Then you throw in type of life - how can that be described by the options supplied as choices? And about the feeling of belonging - I'm not trying to be difficult but that concept is distinctly strange to me.


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## Eddy Edson (May 1, 2019)

Northerner said:


> Hehe! If I had a pound for every time it's been suggested   I think I will do eventually, but I'm a dreadful procrastinator!



You should get DUK to produce it and give a copy to every newbie as part of their starter pack.

Along with instructions to memorise one poem each day, in between running up & down the nearest mountain and eating weeds, or otherwise run the risk of having their noses fall off.


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## Northerner (May 1, 2019)

Eddy Edson said:


> You should get DUK to produce it and give a copy to every newbie as part of their starter pack.
> 
> Along with instructions to memorise one poem each day, in between running up & down the nearest mountain and eating weeds, or otherwise run the risk of having their noses fall off.


I see you've read the one about the 'Cure'  

Apologies for hijacking your thread @MakeChange


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## trophywench (May 2, 2019)

If a person is diabetic, then they should carry their meter with them at all times, especially if they happen to take insulin or any other glycaemic agent.  If they don't have their own meter then why on earth would they suddenly feel they need to test their BG?

I only visit a coffee shop or any sort of establishment that offers coffee, if I'm out and about and either want a drink or a sit down or am wasting time cos eg I'm waiting for a new watch battery to be fitted when the jeweller's said call back in an hour or ditto with shoe repairs since either means a special trip to wherever.   I never actually feel hunger, haven't ever felt hungry since my middle teens, though I can recall it from childhood.  I daresay the lack of availability of snack food as a child (No you can't have a biscuit, you'll spoil your lunch, etc plus I later realised that the fact mom didn't choose to indulge us was actually either caused or severely impeded by lack of cash) helped me not indulge myself too often either, coupled no doubt at all by being on fixed doses of insulin so you were only allowed to eat what your dose had been based on else you would suffer so that deters you.

Nowadays none of those reasons apply so if I want a bit of Millionaires Shortbread with my coffee - I can but only if I can be arsed to do the attendant BG test and bolus - sometimes I do and sometimes I don't.  Nowt special required.


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## Stevec189 (May 2, 2019)

MakeChange said:


> Lol, love the cat café idea, not sure about the reality.  Your idea of going out for a treat is fine. You're in the 'treat' camp. The cake is what it's all about. Relaxing and enjoying being out is also a great reason to go out to eat. However, my target market is specifically those who seek low-carb foods, the cakes fill them with horror. What do you mean by hospital café? Do you mean at the actual hospitals, or create a cafe that looks like a hospital? You know there are plenty of people who don't have diabetes and are walking around with pre-diabetes and don't yet know it. Some of them might be looking for healthier food options. Wouldn't it be great to alert them to the problems of diabetes, in non-intrusive ways, in a relaxed environment? They could choose to find out what their blood sugar levels are, and what they could do about it IF they wish. Some people have a fear of finding out and won't go to the doctors. Being in a place where you are surprised to find unexpected information can help you overcome those initial steps.



Hi. I meant within a hospital. Not convinced the great British public are that interested in eating healthier after all if you were not diagnosed and showing no symptoms would you?. Cat cafes are very real. I was amazed at a Chamber of Commerce event I went to and someone there was going to open one. Apparently they are in London and Nottingham, probably many other places!


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## nonethewiser (May 2, 2019)

Stevec189 said:


> Hi. I meant within a hospital. Not convinced the great British public are that interested in eating healthier after all if you were not diagnosed and showing no symptoms would you?. Cat cafes are very real. I was amazed at a Chamber of Commerce event I went to and someone there was going to open one. Apparently they are in London and Nottingham, probably many other places!



Cat cafe, nah not for me, don't fancy dinning on whiskers & kitty cat food.  Bet there's no toilets, instead you have to use a litter tray in the corner.


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## Stevec189 (May 2, 2019)

The one in London was taking £50k per month so don’t knock it!


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## Ditto (May 2, 2019)

Went to hospital canteen this morning as daughter had to go for her cardio appt. We always call in at the Bevan Restaurant (our hospital is birth place of NHS, Park Hospital Davyhulme as was). I looked at all the food on display which was very nice. Thought I might buy a container salad and take it home for lunch later, we were there for breakfast. Nothing I could buy, every salad containing the ubiquitous pasta, what is it with this white flour rubbish that seems to be in everything nowadays? Then fancied a coffee with cream, but only semi-skimmed milk on offer, so it was back to the fry up and the bottle of water if I wanted to be strictly Atkins / low carb. No mushrooms or fresh cooked tomatoes on offer either, just tinned ones that I believe shot my bg up.  I know from past experience that lunch-time would be worse with just 'school dinner' type fayre on offer, with sponge and custard type afters. This is a hospital for goodness sake, if they can't provide healthy food then we're doomed.


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## TheClockworkDodo (May 3, 2019)

I've done the survey, but like the other type 1s who've commented, I'm not really the target audience.  I go to cafes for cakes, and my main problem with cafes is food intolerances rather than carbs.  I also found I couldn't really pick an answer to the questions about a cafe providing testing facilities - as a type 1 I carry my test kit round with me everywhere, and I test everywhere I go, so I wouldn't find this facility any use at all.  It's not about where I prefer to test, it's about where I have to test, which is wherever I happen to be!

I think your cafe might be good in a hospital or clinic though, and good if it could offer advice to people who think they might be diabetic, rather than to those of us who are already managing it.


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## MakeChange (May 3, 2019)

Thanks everyone for your replies. Having some feedback is very useful, especially as it highlights the different requirements between say type 1, type 2 diagnosed, and those who are pre-diabetic and learning how to deal with it, and want to avoid developing full-blown diabetes. My cafe would be primarily for those wishing to eat low-carb food, there are many people who want to live a low-carb lifestyle, especially ketogenic. I really need some more replies to my survey to pass the 100 full replies. Thanks so much.


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## Maz2 (May 5, 2019)

MakeChange said:


> Hi Eddy, I love a good quality coffee. I would like to be able to buy a boiled egg instead of a shortbread biscuit though. The cafés and food outlets are forgetting about people with diabetes.


I could not agree more.  Some cater for gluten free, some for vegetarian and vegan but not for lower carb diets.


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