# Petition growing to stop DUP alliance



## Amigo

Apologies for prolonging the political debating folks but are others as concerned as me about the reliance Theresa May will have on the DUP to deliver what the country needs at a critical time?
There's apparently already 300,000 names on a petition objecting to a Tory alliance with the DUP for a host of reasons including policy incompatibility, their backward attitudes on many societal issues but most importantly the stability of the peace process in Northern Ireland.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ition-deal-northern-ireland-a7783021.html?amp

I fear that she's signing a 'deal with the devil for an empty IOU' to coin a Celine Dion song. 

This is one occasion when I wish HM the Queen had vetoed the alliance.

Troubling times....


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## Bubbsie

Amigo said:


> Apologies for prolonging the political debating folks but are others as concerned as me about the reliance Theresa May will have on the DUP to deliver what the country needs at a critical time?
> There's apparently already 300,000 names on a petition objecting to a Tory alliance with the DUP for a host of reasons including policy incompatibility, their backward attitudes on many societal issues but most importantly the stability of the peace process in Northern Ireland.
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ition-deal-northern-ireland-a7783021.html?amp
> 
> I fear that she's signing a 'deal with the devil for an empty IOU' to coin a Celine Dion song.
> 
> This is one occasion when I wish HM the Queen had vetoed the alliance.
> 
> Troubling times....


Agree unequivocally Amigo...she has made the most impractical...improbable...impossible alliance she could have...hopefully it's the road to her demise as Leader of the Tory party.


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## Bill Stewardson

You can have all the petitions you want,

It will not make one iota of difference.

Mrs May will get the elbow and yet another election around Oct.


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## Amigo

Bill Stewardson said:


> You can have all the petitions you want,
> 
> It will not make one iota of difference.
> 
> Mrs May will get the elbow and yet another election around Oct.



Doesn't your point speak to the fact that the opinions expressed in this petition will have an impact then Bill?


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## Bubbsie

Bill Stewardson said:


> You can have all the petitions you want,
> 
> It will not make one iota of difference.
> 
> Mrs May will get the elbow and yet another election around Oct.


I hope she does get 'the elbow' Bill...she deserves to!.


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## Bubbsie

Amigo said:


> Doesn't your point speak to the fact that the opinions expressed in this petition will have an impact then Bill?


Don't believe there'll even be time for that Amigo...likely she'll be out sooner...how on earth could she even consider the possibility of working with the DUP...anti abortion...LBGT rights...anti women's rights...strong right wing extremist links...climate change deniers... the only place in the United Kingdom where same sex marriage is not permissible ...the list is endless...smacks of desperation...and chaos.


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## Bill Stewardson

Amigo, petitions like that are completely pointless.

The Bullingdon club boys will trample the "wheat runner" in their mad dash for power, come what may (?).

The last two Tory leaders prove beyond any doubt that actually being good at the job does not figure in any sort of suitability test.

All rather good isn't it.


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## Radders

Bubbsie said:


> Don't believe there'll even be time for that Amigo...likely she'll be out sooner...how on earth could she even consider the possibility of working with the DUP...anti abortion...LBGT rights...anti women's rights...strong right wing extremist links...climate change deniers... the only place in the United Kingdom where same sex marriage is not permissible ...the list is endless...smacks of desperation...and chaos.


The really depressing thing is that somebody elected those MPs.


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## ypauly

I, like Bill think she will be gone soon enough.


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## Amigo

I'm only sorry that we don't have one strong and undivided party to take us forward through Brexit and I don't envy Theresa May her job presently. She miscalculated spectacularly I'm afraid!


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## Matt Cycle

It's what you'd expect from the tories - cosying up to that set of reactionaries.  Although people are probably saying the same thing to the DUP.


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## trophywench

Hang on.

The DUP and Sinn Fein have fallen out over something done by the leader of the DUP, so there is no properly working Government in NI at present.  In order that NI does not disintegrate completely - they operate with OUR government acting as arbitrator/go-between/moderator.

There are quite a lot of different areas where the Gov does not agree with either the DUP or Sinn Fein - fair enough thus far.  But -   How can a body who has now formed an alliance with one of the 'individuals' they arbitrate between, now arbitrate ?


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## Bill Stewardson

The DUP are just Mays lifeboat.
Once again she is showing absolutely no concern at all for her supposed greater responsibility to the country.
She called the election in the first place for her own ends, now she is plumbing the depths to do nothing but try and  (vainly) save herself.

She may well end up paying the price ,, the rest of us will count the cost.


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## Bubbsie

Radders said:


> The really depressing thing is that somebody elected those MPs.


Yep you're right Radders...like minded individuals...worrying  indeed.


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## Lucy Honeychurch

The knives are definitely out for Theresa May. The alliance with the DUP apparently breaks the Impartiality Clause of the Good Friday Agreement, watch this space.....


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## Bubbsie

Bill Stewardson said:


> The DUP are just Mays lifeboat.
> Once again she is showing absolutely no concern at all for her supposed greater responsibility to the country.
> She called the election in the first place for her own ends, now she is plumbing the depths to do nothing but try and  (vainly) save herself.
> 
> She may well end up paying the price ,, the rest of us will count the cost.


Even Margaret Thatcher ended up paying the price...when she got 'bigger' than the Conservative Party...she had to 'go'...love her or hate her...she certainly had more political gravitas than May...that's what happens when you get complacent Theresa...or start to believe you're indispensable.


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## Bill Stewardson

Picture this,,

Mrs May is sat on a single chair in a darkened room, a dim yellow bulb hangs over the polished oak table.
On the age old table are two choices, one is her continued Premiership- with a healthy majority,,,, the other is continued peace in Northern Ireland.
Nobody is present as she gazes and reaches her thin hand out,,,

Which one does she choose ,,,,,,,,,


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## SHORAN

Yup DUP are a bit of a worry - especially where the peace process in Northern Ireland is concerned ....however hopefully the Tories will have some sense (!) and DUP not go upsetting the apple cart and Sein Fein behave.(!) I wonder though - as there are only 10 members of DUP - they may not have that much influence and clout ( remember the Tory / Lib Dem coalition ? )  It's a tricky one, TM did muck up the manifesto as well as angering the electorate regarding triggering the article 50 too slowly, not offering to lower foreign aid, confusing and worrying people with Dementia Tax etc.  Corbin didn't help the situation by offering all sorts of free magical stuff which in my view were impossible, and he was cadgy / economical with the truth - probably wouldn't do a proper Brexit - kudos to him for being clever enough to tap into social media and hook in the youth - and a few others no doubt. 

All in all - what a mess, politicians 99% of them are USELESS and self serving. Liars too......


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## Bill Stewardson

Erm, Corbyn and his party produced a Manifesto that was costed, it was actually  the Tory party who did not cost their Manifesto.
I voted to leave, what I did not vote for was a total abrupt severing of everything tied to a "a bad deal means no deal" ultimatum.
So a "proper Brexit' to me, is probably a million miles away from the one Mrs May has impaled herself upon.
It really is refreshing to see the younger people embracing politics, in time , I think this will lead to a rise in popularity of the Greens.
I think Cameron and now May have done immense long term damage to Conservatism. What was once viewed as the rightful approach to business, owning great wealth, being concerned with generating better standards has now become aligned with nothing but insatiable personal greed.
Which is a great shame actually, gone are the "statesmen Tories", seeing Ken Clark stand and speak his mind was like harking  back to a better era.
May is playing with fire re the DUP, knowinglymdoingnthat is not something that can be forgiven.
On a personal note, "not offering to lower foreign aid" certainly did not annoy me, nor will it.


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## SHORAN

Bill - a bad deal is just that ! - that's why TM said she rather walk away than a have bad deal.A bad deal in my view is where we are still "in" the EU paying them extortionate amounts to remain in the "club", loss of immigration control, probably still under some form of EU jurisdiction. Brexit was in my view what people wanted - for those very reasons get away from all that. Shackled to EU rules /regulations etc etc 

I think the electorate were miffed about the non reduction of foreign aid for obvious reasons - more money going out and we are having cuts, underfunding for housing, NHS etc. I understand foreign aid has it's merits....but you can understand the frustration .If for example we could use the money better spent on homeland security wouldn't that be better, border controls etc  ?


Labour started this immigration problem:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/40...grants-in-a-decade-than-the-previous-40-years
I hardly think Corbyn is going to suddenly stop immigration- not in the way true Brexiters want ? Labour are also well known for spending, and I think the Tories were trying to balance the books hence various cuts etc ? Trying to sort out the mess Labour had left us in?

I am no great fan at all of the Tories, especially TM - but I think we all need to stop bickering and try get the best for the country and support the current govt the best we can - they did give us an actual referendum after all ( they overplayed their card and messed up afterwards )- and they have a very difficult job trying to deal with the EU who have in my view been behaving very badly in the past and now presently with their various threats !!

Anyone who was swayed by Corbin especially 'Leavers"..... absolutely astound me. That's just my view, no doubt- there will  be plenty that have something to layabout that and put me "right" etc etc bla bla bla.  

Considering the Tories did a bad job of their manifesto they still are in power - I think shows probably lots of people want a BREXIT and many UKIPPERS went Tory ? ( hence no UKIP seats )

Politicians for the main part are just self serving and have forgotten the meaning of _Noblesse oblige...._

I predict we will get into such a mess if things don't buck up and UKIP will come roaring back and stop the rot and sort us out come the next election. 

Interesting times ahead for sure. Annoying and frustrating for definite....


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## SHORAN

layabout that- should read 'Say about that'

Typo- sorry !


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## ypauly

Agree that Corbyn had an open goal of epic proportions and missed spectacularly, this despite offering all the bribes to the younger economically illiterate generation, just to get them to vote. Yet he is acting like he won, he came 55 seats behind a party that we all accept did badly, yet he thinks he won?

I think Corbyn needs an urgent MRI


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## Bill Stewardson

Usual right wing stuff, immigration, foreign aid, etc

"Illiterate generation " hmmmmm


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## ypauly

Bill Stewardson said:


> Usual right wing stuff, immigration, foreign aid, etc
> 
> "Illiterate generation " hmmmmm


I think you are confusing two separate posts Bill, and it was economically illiterate.


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## mikeyB

The problem with the DUP alliance is that it flies in the face of the Good Friday agreement, in fact it tears  it up and tramples it into the dirt. The UK government must, by the terms of that agreement, remain completely neutral and even handed in its dealings with the NI government. It must not take sides in the delicate political situation, which is all supported by the democratic wish of the people of Northern Ireland. 

This alliance will be like a red rag to a bull to the nationalists in NI, and quite rightly. The UN may intervene, in fact, because they were concerned in brokering the Good Friday agreement, and that UK neutrality and non interference was a prime element.

This is not something that May has considered. In her efforts to save her own skin, her massive ego has blinded her to the implications of this alliance. It's just morally and politically wrong. It will lead to a referendum in NI for a united Ireland, which will be won. Is that the price she is willing to pay?

I don't want chaos in the government which might be caused by a minority government of any stripe, and because of my heritage I would love to see a united Ireland, but not like this. But it is still very, very wrong.


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## SHORAN

You say... "This is not something that May has considered"-  and that is to remain completely neutral and even handed in it's dealings with the NI government. *How do you know she / her advisors / her party haven't considered this ? * - so on your part it's pure speculation ? - correct me if I am wrong. Yes, politicians are hopeless most of the time ...but surely she / the Tories MUST know what's at stake here, so will try to mediate accordingly and set out the terms carefully and hopefully realise - should common sense prevail that the Uk govt must not take sides in this delicate political situation. Wait and see.

The Tories to stay in power aren't going to side up with Lib Dems ( who will demand another EU referendum ) The Tories have been I think propped up my pro Brexiters / Ukippers ?  So who on earth are they going to side up with ?....it can only be DUP - and so they have to tread very carefully. Also DUP may not have too strong a voice with it only being 10 members ?

What's the alternative - Labour coalition with Lib Dems ( who will demand a referendum surely ) and a few other parties too ? ... but they've said they won't make any deals so where does that leave us ?.... and now  John McDonnell is seeking to portray the Labour Party as the saviours of Brexit by vowing to finish the deal and take Britain out of the single market. 

Really ?!! Pigs might fly !!


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## Bill Stewardson

Yep, "economically illiterate",, not so sure that is the case. Lots of students are quite the opposite, as for being "bribed", my son, who has left uni with lots of debt prefers to see it as being freed from debt, debt accrued due to wanting to further himself.

Not sure Corbyn thinks he won, more a case of a very surprising good result, one which, due to the ineptitude of others may well create opportunities quite soon, otherwise points towards a very good future for The Labour Party.

Either way, at least now we have a situation where one party will have to stop smirking at the other, and that can only improve the standard of Govt, once the current prime minister has done the decent thing and slunk away.
.

Yes, I am posting points in answer to more that one post.


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## Bill Stewardson

SHORAN said:


> You say... "This is not something that May has considered"-  and that is to remain completely neutral and even handed in it's dealings with the NI government. *How do you know she / her advisors / her party haven't considered this ? * - so on your part it's pure speculation ? - correct me if I am wrong. Yes, politicians are hopeless most of the time ...but surely she / the Tories MUST know what's at stake here, so will try to mediate accordingly and set out the terms carefully and hopefully realise - should common sense prevail that the Uk govt must not take sides in this delicate political situation. Wait and see.
> 
> The Tories to stay in power aren't going to side up with Lib Dems ( who will demand another EU referendum ) The Tories have been I think propped up my pro Brexiters / Ukippers ?  So who on earth are they going to side up with ?....it can only be DUP - and so they have to tread very carefully. Also DUP may not have too strong a voice with it only being 10 members ?
> 
> What's the alternative - Labour coalition with Lib Dems ( who will demand a referendum surely ) and a few other parties too ? ... but they've said they won't make any deals so where does that leave us ?.... and now  John McDonnell is seeking to portray the Labour Party as the saviours of Brexit by vowing to finish the deal and take Britain out of the single market.
> 
> Really ?!! Pigs might fly !!



If joining with the DUP isn't enough to draw condemnation, what is ??
Putting forward political convenience really is not going to appease anyone.


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## Bill Stewardson

ypauly said:


> Agree that Corbyn had an open goal of epic proportions and missed spectacularly, this despite offering all the bribes to the younger economically illiterate generation, just to get them to vote. Yet he is acting like he won, he came 55 seats behind a party that we all accept did badly, yet he thinks he won?
> 
> I think Corbyn needs an urgent MRI



So, with all that has gone on regarding our immoral and incompetent prime minister, it is Corbyn who messed up ??


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## SHORAN

Bill
You say " Either way, at least now we have a situation where one party will have to stop smirking at the other, and that can only improve the standard of Govt" -  I'll agree to that. They all need their heads banging together and stop mucking us about, and the media stop being biased left or right and just tell it absolutely straight. We are all in this together - who doesn't want a proud strong Great Britain !?

There's way too much negativity around - we all need to be more positive and seek out solutions rather than looking for problems and be creative with ones thinking.  Give things a chance - be hopeful, otherwise what's the point ? 

You then say " If joining with the DUP isn't enough to draw condemnation, what is ??..Putting forward political convenience really is not going to appease anyone"  

Of course it's not great and not everyone is going to be "happy"... still try to look at the positive and hope that it actually may work out ok, fingers crossed the Govt will really start to WAKE UP and blinking get their act together and do a job well , carefully and properly ! We've had too much instability / dithering and bickering.

Bill - what is the alternative to what the Tories are trying to do now with DUP ?- I'd be interested to hear what you say - from the perspective of the Tories position.


Politics -  love it or hate it - I can't make up my mind !......but I know I don't like or trust politicians !!


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## mikeyB

Just catching up with this thread.

Shoran, the conservatives are in no position to stay neutral on this alliance, whatever its nature, because the DUP will extract a price. Top of the DUP shopping list is a bar on any Irish reunification referendum. Also, a soft border between North and South, which will mean staying in the customs union. They could ask for anything, and Mrs May would say OK because she is desperate to cling to power. That would be around 300,000 voters in NI having vastly disproportionate power in both the UK and NI governments. That is a small tail wagging a very big dog.

Now if that isn't the UK interfering directly in NI governance, then I don't know what is. Or, turn that around and say the DUP would be interfering with UK policy when they should, in fact, have no say at all. How anybody could countenance that is beyond me.

And of course Mrs May didn't consider this, because she expected a huge majority. This plan was figured out on the back of a fag packet, and considered only numbers. These things are never just numbers, Mrs May should know that.


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## SHORAN

Mike, 

You are right - it certainly could be as you say  "a small tail wagging a very big dog"- on the other hand, is it not possible that DUP desperately would love to be part of the "bigger picture"- and so on that score may be keen to appease and concede especially on anything remotely inflammatory ?

Aside from having another general election / or Corbyn taking the reigns  what can the Tories do ? -  any of you have any great ideas / solutions ?.  Realistic , sensible ones that is ! 

Yes, the Tories did muck up with the elections and  they probably thought the premise of Brexit would be strong enough to swing a majority, what they hadn't seen coming was was Corbyn's clever use of social media, his unbelievable manifesto that sounded great to the youth and the gullible..... Tories should have been smarter than that - so yes they probably did as you say "plan it all on the back of a fag packet" !


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## ypauly

Bill Stewardson said:


> So, with all that has gone on regarding our immoral and incompetent prime minister, it is Corbyn who messed up ??


Yes, absolutely as despite bribing the students and the worst opposition in history, he still lost, and lost convincingly.


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## SHORAN

It's got me thinking - this DUP scenario if badly played could be awful. Maybe the Tories should  instead have an alliance with the dreaded LIB DEMS then things would be safer as regards POLITICAL STABILITY IN IRELAND ? But... we'd probably have to have another referendum regarding the EU  however -  this time the question *is do we exit the EU with a deal to keep freedom of movement or not* . Let the arguments and debates for or against come forthwith and  we the people then decide once and for all and put the damn thing to bed and get on with the Brexit . Mind you if it's "soft Brexit"- as in with the continuation of freedom of movement -then it's hardly a "Brexit" at all I think, but that would be for us all to decide ?

The Tories should have put in a "Leaver" in charge in the first place I think....


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## Bill Stewardson

ypauly said:


> Yes, absolutely as despite bribing the students and the worst opposition in history, he still lost, and lost convincingly.


Laughable, the only fault to be shoveled out in huge amounts deserves to be dumped on the Tories for their actions before, during and after the election.
And that's without the budget fiasco and U turns. They are in Disarray. Labour on the other hand,,,,,
"Lost massively" not massively enough to allow the Govt to avoid the new depths they are plumbing in a "strong and stable" fashion.
As for mistakenly releasing a statement re DUP that's just ridiculous.


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## Bill Stewardson

SHORAN said:


> It's got me thinking - this DUP scenario if badly played could be awful. Maybe the Tories should  instead have an alliance with the dreaded LIB DEMS then things would be safer as regards POLITICAL STABILITY IN IRELAND ? But... we'd probably have to have another referendum regarding the EU  however -  this time the question *is do we exit the EU with a deal to keep freedom of movement or not* . Let the arguments and debates for or against come forthwith and  we the people then decide once and for all and put the damn thing to bed and get on with the Brexit . Mind you if it's "soft Brexit"- as in with the continuation of freedom of movement -then it's hardly a "Brexit" at all I think, but that would be for us all to decide ?
> 
> The Tories should have put in a "Leaver" in charge in the first place I think....


Seems like your only main concern is keeping immigrants out.


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## mikeyB

Nobody knows what a soft Brexit is, same as nobody knows what a hard Brexit is. I'm sure that freedom of movement was high on the agenda in most folks minds, for or against. 

What most folk don't seem to have considered is whatever type of Brexit is conjured up, who would want to come and live here anyway in a basket case economy? The pound is currently plumbing new depths, as holidaymakers are discovering. ( Daughter is currently on holiday in Lanzarote with family. I assume the cost of drink has gone up).


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## Matt Cycle

I know we work on a first past the post system and not PR but the percentage of the votes suggest Mr Corbyn did rather well.  Tories 42.4%, Labour 40.0%.  That suggests me to me he commanded a good deal of support among the electorate.  May saw the opinion polls which appeared to show she had a big lead and called a snap election to cash in on it.  Well sorry Tessie, you f****d up big time.


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## Bill Stewardson

SHORAN said:


> Bill
> You say " Either way, at least now we have a situation where one party will have to stop smirking at the other, and that can only improve the standard of Govt" -  I'll agree to that. They all need their heads banging together and stop mucking us about, and the media stop being biased left or right and just tell it absolutely straight. We are all in this together - who doesn't want a proud strong Great Britain !?
> 
> There's way too much negativity around - we all need to be more positive and seek out solutions rather than looking for problems and be creative with ones thinking.  Give things a chance - be hopeful, otherwise what's the point ?
> 
> You then say " If joining with the DUP isn't enough to draw condemnation, what is ??..Putting forward political convenience really is not going to appease anyone"
> 
> Of course it's not great and not everyone is going to be "happy"... still try to look at the positive and hope that it actually may work out ok, fingers crossed the Govt will really start to WAKE UP and blinking get their act together and do a job well , carefully and properly ! We've had too much instability / dithering and bickering.
> 
> Bill - what is the alternative to what the Tories are trying to do now with DUP ?- I'd be interested to hear what you say - from the perspective of the Tories position.
> 
> 
> Politics -  love it or hate it - I can't make up my mind !......but I know I don't like or trust politicians !!



Obviously you can choose as to wether this panic alliance with the DUP warrants condemnation or not, the rest of the population seem to have made their minds up, at least outside of the Tory bubble. 
The first thing they really should have done is remove Mrs May from her position. The fact that she jumped so quickly emphasises the panic within that move. All credibility of the Tories has been well and truly shattered by her.
Be a while before that can be repaired, rightly or wrongly.
It now comes out the the Tories and the DUP have been cosying up for a while,,,, that I find quite worrying.
Alternatives, any that would have retained a measure of integrity and honour.
The Tories, from their point of view, badly need to be seen doing something good at the moment, the DUP is not it.
They're all ex public school millionaires, having been through Uni. They are all highly intelligent, they earn vast sums from directorships, surely they should be able to do better than this immoral, cheap garbage.
I actually think that behind the scenes the cleverer Tories will be planning something much more suitable than Mays last Lifeboat/DUP attempt at clinging on.
Love to know what Ken Clark thinks, or Heseltine.


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## SHORAN

Bill - correct - as with most people, freedom of movement was high on my agenda - along with lot's of other considerations.


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## ypauly

Bill Stewardson said:


> Laughable, the only fault to be shoveled out in huge amounts deserves to be dumped on the Tories for their actions before, during and after the election.
> And that's without the budget fiasco and U turns. They are in Disarray. Labour on the other hand,,,,,
> "Lost massively" not massively enough to allow the Govt to avoid the new depths they are plumbing in a "strong and stable" fashion.
> As for mistakenly releasing a statement re DUP that's just ridiculous.


I am not dissagreeing with you, but as you say, the tories in dissaray with a leader clinging to power by her finger nails and despite everything you say Corbyn still lost by 55 seats, how would he do against good opposition? If I were Labour and believe me that if they have a harriet Harmon or one of the other centerists I could be in these circumstances, I would want Corbyn gone.


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## mikeyB

ypauly said:


> I am not dissagreeing with you, but as you say, the tories in dissaray with a leader clinging to power by her finger nails and despite everything you say Corbyn still lost by 55 seats, how would he do against good opposition? If I were Labour and believe me that if they have a harriet Harmon or one of the other centerists I could be in these circumstances, I would want Corbyn gone.



You may want Corbyn gone, but Corbyn is the very reason Labour did so well, just as May is the reason the Conservatives did so badly. And Corbyn is a centrist- he only seems left wing because what people think of the centre has moved so far right over the last half century. Corbyn would not have lost by 55 seats if you had a half decent voting system as in Scotland for Holyrood elections. That is why, though the SNP had almost a clean sweep in the Westminster vote last time around, Holyrood had plenty of Labour and Conservative voices in the Scottish parliament because of that voting system. It's a fairer reflection of the population.


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## ypauly

David Garbutt said:


> So the tories are saying 'a bad deal with the DUP,  is better than no deal at all.'


Not me or any conservatives I know.


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## ypauly

mikeyB said:


> You may want Corbyn gone, but Corbyn is the very reason Labour did so well, just as May is the reason the Conservatives did so badly. And Corbyn is a centrist- he only seems left wing because what people think of the centre has moved so far right over the last half century. Corbyn would not have lost by 55 seats if you had a half decent voting system as in Scotland for Holyrood elections. That is why, though the SNP had almost a clean sweep in the Westminster vote last time around, Holyrood had plenty of Labour and Conservative voices in the Scottish parliament because of that voting system. It's a fairer reflection of the population.


Labout didn't do well, they lost by 55 seats to a party that didn't even have a majority. In what universe do you have to live to think Labour did well?


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## ypauly

May did better than Corbyn and we can all agree she was rubbish.


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## SHORAN

Interesting question
Probably in a round about way - Yes they probably do think that. ( 'no deal'-  I assume you mean, not be in power ? )
Do you think they'd be happy to hand over power to Labour on the basis that dealing with DUP may be bad ? I assume the Tories must think dealing with a handful DUP must be do-able and not bad  ?..... who knows. 

Here's a thought - if most MP's including TM are "remainers"- why don't they simply join with Lib Dems instead and go for a 2nd referendum - if by chance the vote is then turned around in favour of remaining with the EU, reversing article 50 etc then that's most of the MP's happy. But then.....as for the general population  - there would a massive unrest and riots if we had to go through the referendum all over again ... maybe that's why they haven't taken that route ?


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## SHORAN

Interesting question - I was referring to David Garbutt.


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## mikeyB

ypauly said:


> Labout didn't do well, they lost by 55 seats to a party that didn't even have a majority. In what universe do you have to live to think Labour did well?


Are you unable to count? The Tories got 42% of the votes, labour 40%. That's 15% or so more than was predicted, so in my book that's doing well. As for those 55 seats, I've already said that it wouldn't have been anywhere near as much with a more representative voting system. The Tories would still have won, of course.


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## Bill Stewardson

SHORAN said:


> Bill - correct - as with most people, freedom of movement was high on my agenda - along with lot's of other considerations.



Yes there are indeed a lot of people who's main concern is immigration.

Obviously they think that sorting that will sort the country.

Be good to hear how ?


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## Bill Stewardson

Matt Cycle said:


> I know we work on a first past the post system and not PR but the percentage of the votes suggest Mr Corbyn did rather well.  Tories 42.4%, Labour 40.0%.  That suggests me to me he commanded a good deal of support among the electorate.  May saw the opinion polls which appeared to show she had a big lead and called a snap election to cash in on it.  Well sorry Tessie, you f****d up big time.



Indeed, despite the different view of the "smarting" right wing, the bulk of the population agree that JC did a brilliant job. He has changed UK politics for ever, no more will the young be casually ignored, never again will the old suffer the threat of their bricks and mortar being snatched.
The media did their best to ruin JC, happily they failed miserably.


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## ypauly

mikeyB said:


> Are you unable to count? The Tories got 42% of the votes, labour 40%. That's 15% or so more than was predicted, so in my book that's doing well. As for those 55 seats, I've already said that it wouldn't have been anywhere near as much with a more representative voting system. The Tories would still have won, of course.


By your logic, Teresa May did well well indeed getting such a large vote share and even more votes Than Blair got in 1997, wooohooo well done Teresa.


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## Bill Stewardson

mikeyB said:


> Are you unable to count? The Tories got 42% of the votes, labour 40%. That's 15% or so more than was predicted, so in my book that's doing well. As for those 55 seats, I've already said that it wouldn't have been anywhere near as much with a more representative voting system. The Tories would still have won, of course.



Whichever way you view it, the Tories messed up big style, biggest debacle since Cameron went to the country- just by coincidence he's a Tory- maybe they are just too obsessed with greed and power.
Corbyn did a brilliant job against all odds, and, he will be back.
Without the biased media and coupled with this week, he looks good for next time. 
To be honest, it is time we ditched first past the post.


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## Bill Stewardson

ypauly said:


> By your logic, Teresa May did well well indeed getting such a large vote share and even more votes Than Blair got in 1997, wooohooo well done Teresa.



You seem unable to accept reality, or have a very well developed sense of humour.


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## ypauly

Bill Stewardson said:


> You seem unable to accept reality, or have a very well developed sense of humour.


The reality I see is that May did badly, very bad indeed, yet despite this Corbyn did even worseI don't count on pre-election polls as we know they are mostly crap, I don't buy pre-election expectations either, the only poll that counts is the one on the day. That my friend is reality.


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## mikeyB

ypauly said:


> By your logic, Teresa May did well well indeed getting such a large vote share and even more votes Than Blair got in 1997, wooohooo well done Teresa.


True, Mongo, but the Tories got a lot of UKIP votes, which I'm sure is a matter of some pride at least. There are, of course, a couple of million more voters than in 1997, but you can do anything with stats.


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## SHORAN

Bill
You asked regarding reducing immigration  "Obviously they think that sorting that will sort the country - Be good to hear how" ?  

I don't know if you've watched any of the debates, which papers you read , what research you did pre- referendum.

However the answer to your question is for me *very obvious logic* - it is beneficial to control /  reduce the numbers for many reasons. Very basically - less population = less strain on our housing, NHS, schools etc , as well as that  it would help the UK retain some of it's cultural identity.

Reducing immigration could also change they way big businesses make huge profits - they use immigrants to exploit cheap labour. The elite getting richer to the detriment of the UK natives. The big businesses without vast uncontrolled amounts of cheap immigration would have to start training our own and increase wages etc

Yes immigration on the one hand generates a certain amount of tax revenue -this makes the economy look good, big businesses look good etc. I suspect though as a low wage immigrant- they get topped up very generously with in work benefits / housing  benefits  etc, so in the end it's false economy .... as well as the fact that they use our NHS, Schools, take up housing etc . Drives rents up too because of lack of available housing etc  The list is endless.
We are a small country and do not have that much space. Maybe you may not notice immigration - but in the big cities you probably will, I certainly do in London.

On the other hand - a friend of mine lives in a cute little countryside village -  and to my surprise she was telling me that at large data removal firm she worked for ( locally )  - all the data names she came across seemed to be foreign names ( NHS paperwork )  and all the staff she worked with were not English and couldn't speak the language. I was quite stunned.

The desire to reduce immigration was only one part of the problem, Brexiters I think additionally - importantly, wanted proper sovereignty - why let others tell us what to do and dictate the terms etc  ?  The ECHR won't let us get rid of undesirables, terrorist etc

Over regulation stifles competition . Watch "Brexit - The Movie"





We'd save money in the long run being out of the EU - even with tariffs. ( and the theory is we'd be able to spend the money saved on NHS, housing etc whatever )  It was always a long term strategy - getting out of the EU was never going to be smooth - but it could be sorted out  much better and quicker if we got our act together and less people tried to subvert the will of the people.

Being out of the EU means we should be able to trade with many many more countries throughout the world. 

There was talk of an EU army, Turkey wanting to join the EU etc ( predominantly a muslim country - so is that wise ? )
The EU need us for our vast sums of money to top up the weaker  economies / countries that aren't doing so well - mostly Eastern European countries.

Notice how NASTY the EU  are toward us right now - not very friendly are they ?  I'd want to get well away from a club that was nasty to me.

Funny you'd think- The EU  would be well happy to get rid of us-  after all we kept going back with various request only to be refused most of the time... now they are desperate to keep us in- why ? for our money. 

The EU or EEC was great idea to start with but it became overblown, corrupt and unworkable.

Bla bla bla 

You must know all the arguments. No point picking a fight with me. I will stick to my beliefs, I want the best for the UK. Simple.


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## ypauly

We all want what is best for the UK, well at least I hope so. We just have different ways of achieving this goal and indeed what the actual goal is. Life would be boring if we all had the same ideals.


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## mikeyB

Shoran, I note your comment about "subverting the will of the people". That should read "37% of the voting population".  And if you wanted the best for the UK you would have voted remain; what we need now is the best we can do outside the EU.


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## SHORAN

Ha ha - I didn't know you were a comedian ! Remain ? wrong answer I'm afraid.  Nice try. 

Everyone believes differently. 

I cannot see any logic whatsoever staying within the EU and no one has really ever enlightened me as to what the benefits are of staying within the EU.


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## Bill Stewardson

ypauly said:


> I am not dissagreeing with you, but as you say, the tories in dissaray with a leader clinging to power by her finger nails and despite everything you say Corbyn still lost by 55 seats, how would he do against good opposition? If I were Labour and believe me that if they have a harriet Harmon or one of the other centerists I could be in these circumstances, I would want Corbyn gone.



Well, most right wingers  must be saying many a prayer to have him gone, his sensible inclusive policies scare them to death, good job he did so terribly badly really. Galvanising the youths, increasing his vote, increasing his MPs, truly shocking performance, I,m starting to see what you mean now.


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## Bill Stewardson

SHORAN said:


> Bill
> You asked regarding reducing immigration  "Obviously they think that sorting that will sort the country - Be good to hear how" ?
> 
> I don't know if you've watched any of the debates, which papers you read , what research you did pre- referendum.
> 
> However the answer to your question is for me *very obvious logic* - it is beneficial to control /  reduce the numbers for many reasons. Very basically - less population = less strain on our housing, NHS, schools etc , as well as that  it would help the UK retain some of it's cultural identity.
> 
> Reducing immigration could also change they way big businesses make huge profits - they use immigrants to exploit cheap labour. The elite getting richer to the detriment of the UK natives. The big businesses without vast uncontrolled amounts of cheap immigration would have to start training our own and increase wages etc
> 
> Yes immigration on the one hand generates a certain amount of tax revenue -this makes the economy look good, big businesses look good etc. I suspect though as a low wage immigrant- they get topped up very generously with in work benefits / housing  benefits  etc, so in the end it's false economy .... as well as the fact that they use our NHS, Schools, take up housing etc . Drives rents up too because of lack of available housing etc  The list is endless.
> We are a small country and do not have that much space. Maybe you may not notice immigration - but in the big cities you probably will, I certainly do in London.
> 
> On the other hand - a friend of mine lives in a cute little countryside village -  and to my surprise she was telling me that at large data removal firm she worked for ( locally )  - all the data names she came across seemed to be foreign names ( NHS paperwork )  and all the staff she worked with were not English and couldn't speak the language. I was quite stunned.
> 
> The desire to reduce immigration was only one part of the problem, Brexiters I think additionally - importantly, wanted proper sovereignty - why let others tell us what to do and dictate the terms etc  ?  The ECHR won't let us get rid of undesirables, terrorist etc
> 
> Over regulation stifles competition . Watch "Brexit - The Movie"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We'd save money in the long run being out of the EU - even with tariffs. ( and the theory is we'd be able to spend the money saved on NHS, housing etc whatever )  It was always a long term strategy - getting out of the EU was never going to be smooth - but it could be sorted out  much better and quicker if we got our act together and less people tried to subvert the will of the people.
> 
> Being out of the EU means we should be able to trade with many many more countries throughout the world.
> 
> There was talk of an EU army, Turkey wanting to join the EU etc ( predominantly a muslim country - so is that wise ? )
> The EU need us for our vast sums of money to top up the weaker  economies / countries that aren't doing so well - mostly Eastern European countries.
> 
> Notice how NASTY the EU  are toward us right now - not very friendly are they ?  I'd want to get well away from a club that was nasty to me.
> 
> Funny you'd think- The EU  would be well happy to get rid of us-  after all we kept going back with various request only to be refused most of the time... now they are desperate to keep us in- why ? for our money.
> 
> The EU or EEC was great idea to start with but it became overblown, corrupt and unworkable.
> 
> Bla bla bla
> 
> You must know all the arguments. No point picking a fight with me. I will stick to my beliefs, I want the best for the UK. Simple.



Ah UKIP, that explains it, well, there will always be those who remember them.


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## ypauly

Bill Stewardson said:


> Well, most right wingers  must be saying many a prayer to have him gone, his sensible inclusive policies scare them to death, good job he did so terribly badly really. Galvanising the youths, increasing his vote, increasing his MPs, truly shocking performance, I,m starting to see what you mean now.


He didn't galvanise the youth, he offered them freebies that they wanted and he couldn't afford, but then he could do that as he would never have to deliver on his promise.

Actually, the best thing for the conservatives is him staying, but what we need is the right thing for the nation and not just the party, something May seems to have forgotten. I would also point out that you could only think Corbyn did well if you had low expectations of him, had you really thought he was Prime Minister material you would be gutted he lost.


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## Amigo

I've never felt more conflicted in my voting decision as this time. Corbyn was seen to be 'dead man walking' politically so it's not surprising he's now basking in the unexpected validation he thinks he got. But I don't think it's as simple as that. Because we have seemingly moved back to the 2 party system, old loyalties have resurfaced because the disenfranchised no longer knew where to turn. Alternatives had disappeared. The Lib Dem and UKIP voters had to turn somewhere.

May seemed to be doing reasonably well in the lead up despite being a cold fish from a sheltered background. The public were exposed to those inadequacies in contrast to Corbyn who was out and about as the 'man of the people'. More importantly she alienated the young and scared the old and her two most trusted, bullish advisers have gone as a result. Corbyn threw them a lifeline but I wasn't convinced he could fund it.

Her personality won't survive the cut and thrust of what's ahead because she needs a strong sense of acceptance to function which is why I think she allowed herself to be talked into an ill-advised early election.

Interesting times but scary in terms of the implications for de-stabilising peace in Northern Ireland. I think the knives are already out for her but goodness knows what the alternatives are. BoJo perhaps?


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## ypauly

Amigo said:


> goodness knows what the alternatives are. BoJo perhaps?


I would like to see Ruth Davidson or Dan Hannan, but as they are not Westminster MP's they would need a peerage to sit in the cabinet. Therefore David Davis gets my shout.


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## ypauly

Just seen Gove is back, and in a position, that means he will have to explain to farmers why they cannot get their subsidies anymore. You couldn't make it up


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## Bill Stewardson

ypauly said:


> He didn't galvanise the youth, he offered them freebies that they wanted and he couldn't afford, but then he could do that as he would never have to deliver on his promise.
> 
> Actually, the best thing for the conservatives is him staying, but what we need is the right thing for the nation and not just the party, something May seems to have forgotten. I would also point out that you could only think Corbyn did well if you had low expectations of him, had you really thought he was Prime Minister material you would be gutted he lost.



Yes ofcourse.


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## SHORAN

If TM has to go - I'd plump for..... 
Jacob Rees-Mogg..... he always seems to talk sense.


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## Amigo

SHORAN said:


> If TM has to go - I'd plump for.....
> Jacob Rees-Mogg..... he always seems to talk sense.



Oh he'll fit in beautifully with many of the backward views of the DUP. Rees-Mogg is comically known by parliamentary sketch writers as "the honourable member for the early 20th century'.


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## mikeyB

On the point of Corbyn making promises they couldn't afford, the Labour manifesto was fully costed and where the money was coming from was explained. It might not have worked, but it was costed. The Tories didn't mention costing at all. Or how much money would be made by stiffing pensioners.   

And on the point of who should take over from May, it should be no-one. We can't have yet another unelected leader. The public voted for May as leader. Nobody else. All the contenders are a joke, particularly David Davis who is obviously completely out of his depth.


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## Bill Stewardson

mikeyB said:


> On the point of Corbyn making promises they couldn't afford, the Labour manifesto was fully costed and where the money was coming from was explained. It might not have worked, but it was costed. The Tories didn't mention costing at all. Or how much money would be made by stiffing pensioners.
> 
> And on the point of who should take over from May, it should be no-one. We can't have yet another unelected leader. The public voted for May as leader. Nobody else. All the contenders are a joke, particularly David Davis who is obviously completely out of his depth.



How refreshing would it be for a cross party team of experts to be called together to see us through the European stuff ? I refuse to believe that there are not fine minds scattered across the political spectrum. They are all supposed to have the good of the country above all else ( except May obviously).
The UK has a severe shortage of trade negotiators, Clegg being one.


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## mikeyB

There are enough Brexit deniers in the Tory Party and in the opposition parties to bring the process to a complete halt, then someone could get back on to running the country, because while this lot are arsing about, the pound will soon be equivalent to the Euro and the Dollar. The money markets do not like uncertainty. 

And don't tell me Brexit was the will of the people, we were told complete and utter lies by the Brexit mob, including the odious Boris Johnson who created the 350 million pounds a week for the NHS lie. He wants to become PM. God help us all if he does.


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## Bill Stewardson

mikeyB said:


> There are enough Brexit deniers in the Tory Party and in the opposition parties to bring the process to a complete halt, then someone could get back on to running the country, because while this lot are arsing about, the pound will soon be equivalent to the Euro and the Dollar. The money markets do not like uncertainty.
> 
> And don't tell me Brexit was the will of the people, we were told complete and utter lies by the Brexit mob, including the odious Boris Johnson who created the 350 million pounds a week for the NHS lie. He wants to become PM. God help us all if he does.



I will hold my hands up here, I voted to leave, but not the chest beating version our incompetent Govt are about.
Heres a thing, the Govt insist (it's a law) that many other votes (especially Trades Union ones) are won by set percentages, based on minimum turnouts, why was that not so here ??
All seems a bit unfair to me.


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## mikeyB

Aye, Bill. The government of the time (labour, 1979) insisted that the Scottish Devolution Act which created the Scottish Parliament had to be a fixed proportion of the voting population. The vote was won, but because only 32.9% of the population voted, it didn't pass. 

Things were different in 1997 when 73% voted yes on a 60% turnout. That referendum was a manifesto commitment for the first labour government, who were both surprised and pissed off at the result. No government is keen on democracy.


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## SHORAN

For me - the 350 million you refer to wasn't set in stone that it would definitely be spent on NHS - to my mind the implication was we'd basically save that money and could spend it on NHS instead or other things  ... it's not a problem, nothing to get all hung up about.  

Remainers or "Soft Brexiters" seem to think we will have a stronger economy with the single market and need immigration. I disagree 

See:
https://getbritainout.org

Like I said at the very start the EEC was a great idea - but eventually this EU thing comes along and eventually ruins it - it's  corrupt, overblown, dictatorial,  and unworkable.

The EU was / is sinking - so it's best to jump ship. That's very obvious. 

The 'Remain' lot were harking on about all sorts of doom and gloom during the referendum - all turned out to be lies, never happened. 
Look at that odious Osborne, Carney etc  Trustworthy guys ?

I cannot understand remainers / remoaners logic at all. Tell me what is so amazing and great about being part of this EU club ? 

As for being part of the "EU" there were some good things - like ease of movement around Europe without the need for visas etc.Giving that up I'd say is not  a big deal. Look at the BIG picture . Long term strategy . While we make the transition - yes  we may end up a bit poorer to start with, it may be trickier to move around whilst holidaying or on business - in this regard I'd say true Brexiters are not selfish because of exactly that, and are looking way ahead - mostly for their kids / grand kids - a better brighter future. I applaud you. 

With the EU there were various rights / rules that were helpful - but we can make similar laws of our OWN in time. What's the problem ?

Why do we need a foreign body to dictate to us because we are a member of this very expensive and failing club. Makes no sense. Our politicians, traders etc get paid fantastic money - they can figure things out for themselves and make it work surely ?

Need I say more.


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## ypauly

SHORAN said:


> Stuff


You are clearly passionate about the EU, but may I ask a couple of questions.

If the EU said OK we get the problem and that harmonisation of a certain tax (for example national insurance) to make a welfare available that ALL member states will contribute to, fairly and evenly, Ensuring every citizen has a minimum standard of living, thus removing the need for mass migration, yet still allowing for free movement, would this ease you primary concern about the EU?

And could the EU take any steps, say 3 new treaties (you get to pick them)that would make you want to stay involved?


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## SHORAN

Interesting question  !

Ok....if mass migration was reduced dramatically because like you say new rules were brought in to facilitate this, that would make lot of people happier I think and very importantly we are now able to actually able to control our borders / immigration much more effectively for security and numbers.  Great - then bring on freedom of movement.

The whole tariff free thing / protectionism would need to be overhauled. I prefer the idea of trading with who we  want and not being forbidden by the EU from doing so.  As it stands I get the feeling its all a bit of a racket.

More UK sovereignty, a treaty to reflect this - and scrapping the EHRC - so we can get rid of / deport  illegal immigrants / terrorist / inciters / criminals more easily.

 A huge rethink an overhaul,  A treaty - scrapping this ridiculous amount of membership fee we have to pay ( not so great value for money so I'm lead to believe - mostly it allows us to have free trade, but it's not exactly "free" if we have to pay vast amounts of money for the privilege etc, we get certain rebates etc but it's not fantastic )  - I understand it's a complicated matter reflecting on ones own economy and the idea is that it helps other nations not doing so well etc, all in all in theory it promotes more equality and peace. There's some truth in that, but it doesn't work because it makes the less economically sound nations want to join for handouts and aid ( perfectly understandable ). There should be amore curbs about which nations can join otherwise it just gets too big which it is now. Maybe some rule that  after so many years of us paying in ( and the other big economies ) - the recipients have to  get their own economies  on track and up to standard because they no longer will receive aid / funds. Greece probably shouldn't have been allowed to join in the first place etc they hardly ever paid any tax etc  I do know we are exempt from bailing out Eurozone etc 

After all that - then maybe I'd want to stay in .

Ypauly - I hope it wasn't a trick question  !

Frankly - I'd still rather be completely clean out. They've been a nasty lot and corrupt to the hilt.


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## ypauly

Not a trick question but every brexiter I know is not against the idea of an EU superstate, they just think it has been done wrong.

Thank you for answering.


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## SHORAN

You're welcome.

I do not profess to be an expert, it's just what I think after much research. I looked in depth: both sides of the argument pre referendum. There's probably a lot I have missed out - and other areas I may not fully understand. 

I know one thing - I spent way too much time reading up on the subject, watching all the debates, looking at all the pros and cons - with many sleepless nights ( before the referendum ).... trying to figure it all out !

I am sure it was the same for many others ?

Each to their own I say.

Goodnight


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## mikeyB

As yPauly has mentioned, the farmers in the U.K., particularly the hill farmers in the north of England and Scotland will be wondering about their EU subsidies, and there are whole gangs of birds and wildlife worried when the set aside payments disappear. It's a hidden side effect of Brexit, the disappearance of skylarks, lapwings, butterflies and more. It's not so much an economic effect, it's just quality of life.


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## Robin

mikeyB said:


> As yPauly has mentioned, the farmers in the U.K., particularly the hill farmers in the north of England and Scotland will be wondering about their EU subsidies, and there are whole gangs of birds and wildlife worried when the set aside payments disappear. It's a hidden side effect of Brexit, the disappearance of skylarks, lapwings, butterflies and more. It's not so much an economic effect, it's just quality of life.


Surely set aside finished long ago? There is now the '5 metre strip' that farmers are paid for not planting right to the edge of fields, thus leaving a wildlife strip, no reason for this not to continue after Brexit. Most of the farmers round here voted leave just to get away from red tape, and in the hope that some of the money the UK  currently pays to French farmers would come to them. (Whether they were being unduly optimistic remains to be seen. Don't shoot the messanger, just reporting what local farmers have said to me.)


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## Lucy Honeychurch

Of course no one can speculate, answer, agree or disagree on any of the points relating to leaving the EU, as no one knew, or still knows what leaving the EU will actually entail and whether it will lead to utopia or dystopia.
What is evident is the pound has plummeted and inflation has risen, so I suspect we are moving in the direction of the former of the two.


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## SHORAN

Regarding EU subsidies :

The choice is.....give money to an inefficient, cumbersome, undemocratic incoherent organisation which then distributes some of the money to those in need, after paying themselves unaudited expenses.....
or....
Cut out the corrupt middle men have more money to play with -  divide the amount according to need to the farmers, business, industry, health, education etc.
In very simple terms I think - cutting out the middle man makes our money work more efficiently ? 

I think if the skylarks, lapwings and butterflies knew the reality of the situation they'd go mad. 

Ha ha


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## trophywench

Carwyn (?sp) Jones - leader of the Welsh assembly has written to Mrs May to say Wales decides its agricultural policy, ditto Scotland do and neither will now simply accept a policy dictated ONLY by London.

He wants them to arrange for the Agric Minister to all meet together, and reach a mutual consensus to apply overall.

I commented to my husband after we heard that - Don't be so daft, Carwyn!  That sounds FAR too sensible to me!


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