# Riots in Birmingham?



## Flutterby (Aug 8, 2011)

Not sure how much is true but there is supposed to be widespread violence and rioting in Birmingham city centre tonight - anyone know anything?


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## Steff (Aug 8, 2011)

All i can find at the minute flutter

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14453258

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-14452468


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## Northerner (Aug 8, 2011)

Hadn't heard anything Flutterby, hope it turns out to be something and nothing and not the start of how things were in the early 1980s  Hope you are OK?

Something here:

http://www.channel4.com/news/unrest-spreads-to-leeds-and-birmingham


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## Mark T (Aug 8, 2011)

How about: BBC: Gangs of youths and windows smashed in Birmingham
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-14452468


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## Flutterby (Aug 8, 2011)

Yes there's definitely something going on and it looks pretty bad from what people are saying although you know what it's like one rumour gets another.

Northy - I am ok thank you, have been busy with one thing and another and neglecting you all - sorry.  Still intend to be at the meet in Birmingham - if the Mailbox survives! 

It's a year today by the day and tomorrow by the date since the stroke!


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## Paul (Aug 8, 2011)

if it is true I feel so sorry for the hard working people of Birmingham why are they putting up with it?


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## Northerner (Aug 8, 2011)

Flutterby said:


> ...Northy - I am ok thank you, have been busy with one thing and another and neglecting you all - sorry.  Still intend to be at the meet in Birmingham - if the Mailbox survives!
> 
> It's a year today by the day and tomorrow by the date since the stroke!



Oh my goodness, is it really? I'd forgotten how soon after it was when we met you in Birmingham last year. Looking forward to seeing you again, as you say - if the Mailbox is still standing! Can't they herd the yobs into that bullring of yours?


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## Flutterby (Aug 8, 2011)

Northerner said:


> Oh my goodness, is it really? I'd forgotten how soon after it was when we met you in Birmingham last year. Looking forward to seeing you again, as you say - if the Mailbox is still standing! Can't they herd the yobs into that bullring of yours?



Time flies eh?!  We'll have lots to catch up on!

Haha - the bullring - that's whats needed - and let the bulls have a go at them!  bet they wouldn't be so full of themselves then!


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## Paul (Aug 8, 2011)

as this government is determent in reducing police levels and closing prisons the only winners now are the criminals it is just a pity they don't pay tax.


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## Flutterby (Aug 8, 2011)

It makes my blood boil - but as that's not good for me I will shut up!!

It's just been on the 10pm news - will watch the local news and see what they say.


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## Freddie99 (Aug 8, 2011)

I recall similar events in France in the winter of 2005. Much the same root cause and widespread rioting across the country. However, the French riot police (the CRS - Compagnie Republicaine de Securite) had and used the their more robust options available to them in their response. This will calm down after a while.


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## Robster65 (Aug 8, 2011)

They've apparently smashed windows at the children's hospital. Just goes to show that it's just random acts of destruction.

Agree with Tom that it will calm down. Hopefully a good downpour of rain will send them home.

Rob


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## Flutterby (Aug 8, 2011)

Just watched local news, seems to be looting, vandalism and general mayhem.  Reports that Primark had been set on fire have not been mentioned so that seems thankfully to be untrue (I mean Primark! ) mobile phone shops, Boots, electrical shops and others have been broken into.  People have been caught up in it such as a mother with an 8 month old baby desparate to get back to her car.  Public transport has been affected but to what degree I don't know.

Oh well - I pity those caught up in it and the police who have no real powers anymore.  Another hit to already struggling retail firms as well.  Bad news all round.

Off to bed now.


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## Caroline (Aug 9, 2011)

I hope it calms down soon too, it is sensless destruction.

I also heard there was rioting and looting in Manchester and about three other areas near me.

Talk in the office think the police are standing back becuase the government has tied their hands with all the cut backs. Could be loads of reasons I don't understand...


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## AlisonM (Aug 9, 2011)

My chum in Brum says the city centre was full of coathangers this morning. Chavs updating their wardrobes no doubt.


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## Robster65 (Aug 9, 2011)

Caroline said:


> Talk in the office think the police are standing back becuase the government has tied their hands with all the cut backs. Could be loads of reasons I don't understand...


 
My cynical side thought that too but I think they just outnumbered and outfoxed much of the time.

Nothing so wiley as a teenager with an axe to grind. I suspect they've all got their own reasons for doing it, from social injustice to boredom and all points in between. I know a lot of comementators are trying to use it to push their own ideology.

I'm also sure there are many communities who won't be co-operating with the police to find those responsible. There's still talk of institutional racism in certain areas which may not be the cause but it won't help to find the solution. I agree that there needs to be a lot more understanding between all the groups before we have a true multi-cultural society.

Rob


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## shiv (Aug 9, 2011)

Police have apparently advised everyone to vacate the city by 4pm. JDRF office has just closed, my sister has been sent home from where she works.

http://birminghamriots2011.tumblr.com/


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## ypauly (Aug 9, 2011)

Not just the city centre now, major retail parks like the fort are being heavily protected leaving the idiots to go after the smaller places. My wifes branch of B&Q by the fort is being boarded up as we speak.


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## Flutterby (Aug 9, 2011)

It's looking pretty grim for tonight I reckon, really awful for all innocent parties concerned.  I don't think the police really do have enough power but there again we have seen some pretty awful errors made particularly by the met.  I don't know, I'm just glad I haven't got to sort it out.  Stay safe all who are near to any trouble.


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## AlisonM (Aug 10, 2011)

One of my closest friends lives outside Walsall and she was really worried last night waiting for her bus, there were gangs of hoodies wandering around with the police just standing watching them. She works on the other side of Brum and had to take the tourist route in today as Wolverhampton was wrecked and she didn't want to go into Brum city centre again, she did that yesterday and it was a shambles too.

The kids (and they were kids) were all on their mobies, obviously plotting how to get round plod.


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## Flutterby (Aug 10, 2011)

It must be horrible and really frightening just trying to go about your routine with all this going on.  I have a friend who works on the trains in B'ham and goes back to work tonight on a late shift, not good, am concerned for him.  

Last night hubby was supposed to be working till 9.35pm in our own town (Kidderminster) he turned up at about 7.45 saying the police had advised him to shut the shop (a bookies) and go home, it seems there were a few youths hanging around and they weren't taking any chances - very disruptive and very worrying.  He's on a late again tonight.


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## Northerner (Aug 10, 2011)

Hoping things stay calm for tonight (and the next, and the next!) Flutterby.


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## Steff (Aug 10, 2011)

Its tragic about the 3 people killed last night in Birmingham as far as i know i dont think they have linked it in with the riots as yet


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## shiv (Aug 10, 2011)

I think it is Steff, media are saying they were protecting their streets - or whatever the appropriate term is - and they were run over.


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## sasha1 (Aug 10, 2011)

Hi I hope you are all safe in this area of the UK ... 

I have posted on the other riot thread, so I wont get on my soap box in this one too ... 

Apparently, the 3 killed by the hit and run driver, were protecting  a local mosque.

Heidi
xx


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## sasha1 (Aug 10, 2011)

shiv said:


> I think it is Steff, media are saying they were protecting their streets - or whatever the appropriate term is - and they were run over.


Media and eyewitnesses state the car drove on to the pavement.

Heidi
xx


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## ypauly (Aug 10, 2011)

This could get a lot lot worse now differing racial groups want to hurt each other. We in birmingham have had it before and it isn't nice.


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## novorapidboi26 (Aug 10, 2011)

ypauly said:


> This could get a lot lot worse now differing racial groups want to hurt each other. We in birmingham have had it before and it isn't nice.



Are they not all coming together to riot.....?


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## ypauly (Aug 10, 2011)

novorapidboi26 said:


> Are they not all coming together to riot.....?



No it's a muslim against black thing, we have had it before and there were quite a few shootings then.


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## FM001 (Aug 13, 2011)

It is hard to believe that despite last weeks riots the government are still pressing ahead with Police cuts, my nephew who is a Special Constable has been told its highly unlikely a full time position will become available so he is looking for alternative employment.  

Scenes like last week although very distressing will become common place as the population increases, unemployment grows and the cuts begin to bite, no excuses for such behaviour but I do fear we will see more to come.


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## ypauly (Aug 13, 2011)

toby said:


> It is hard to believe that despite last weeks riots the government are still pressing ahead with Police cuts, my nephew who is a Special Constable has been told its highly unlikely a full time position will become available so he is looking for alternative employment.
> 
> Scenes like last week although very distressing will become common place as the population increases, unemployment grows and the cuts begin to bite, no excuses for such behaviour but I do fear we will see more to come.


Nobody wants cuts, unfortunately the country doesn't have any money and is borrowing at alarming rates just to get by.


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## Northerner (Aug 13, 2011)

ypauly said:


> Nobody wants cuts, unfortunately the country doesn't have any money and is borrowing at alarming rates just to get by.



Cuts of this speed and nature aren't always the way to go, sometimes you have to retain some level of investment in order to progress. There are some very eloquent analyses knocking around that argue Osbourne is doing precisely the wrong thing in cutting too deep, too quickly


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## Robster65 (Aug 13, 2011)

Northerner said:


> Cuts of this speed and nature aren't always the way to go, sometimes you have to retain some level of investment in order to progress. There are some very eloquent analyses knocking around that argue Osbourne is doing precisely the wrong thing in cutting too deep, too quickly


 
And in some of the worst places. He's reviewing the 50% tax rate at the mo because he's not sure it's efficiently collecting revenue. Best idea I would imagine is to give everyone who earns over ?500k their own peasantry and then the state won't have to pay for them. They could then have their own castles and we could all till the land for them, call them master and it'd be just like the good old days. 

Rob


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## Northerner (Aug 13, 2011)

Robster65 said:


> And in some of the worst places. He's reviewing the 50% tax rate at the mo because he's not sure it's efficiently collecting revenue. Best idea I would imagine is to give everyone who earns over ?500k their own peasantry and then the state won't have to pay for them. They could then have their own castles and we could all till the land for them, call them master and it'd be just like the good old days.
> 
> Rob



They would probably still claim expenses for their moats..!


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## ypauly (Aug 14, 2011)

Northerner said:


> Cuts of this speed and nature aren't always the way to go, sometimes you have to retain some level of investment in order to progress. There are some very eloquent analyses knocking around that argue Osbourne is doing precisely the wrong thing in cutting too deep, too quickly



So what's the alternative? We can't keep borrowing in the way we have been otherwise our credit rating goes like all the others and that would spell disaster. Take a look at the cuts greece is being forced to make all because it would do what was required when it was required.


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 14, 2011)

ypauly said:


> So what's the alternative?



One alternative ( and there are probably quite a few alternatives to the Kamikaze economics of Osborne) was put forward by Labour at the last election and is still proposed by Ed Balls - make the cuts over TWO parliaments instead of the ONE parliament that Osborne is doing AND continue to pump-prime the economy to get people back in work. As the economy revives and people get back to work, the deficit situation will begin to resolve itself.
That was also the policy suggested by the LIb-Dems ( Vince Cable) until they sacrificed principle for power.

And after ploughing on unsuccessfully for 18 months and with a double-dip recession looming that is the policy (Plan B) Osborne seems to be switching to with his promised review in the Autumn ( after a good kicking from No. 10).


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## ypauly (Aug 14, 2011)

mcdonagh47 said:


> One alternative ( and there are probably quite a few alternatives to the Kamikaze economics of Osborne) was put forward by Labour at the last election and is still proposed by Ed Balls - make the cuts over TWO parliaments instead of the ONE parliament that Osborne is doing AND continue to pump-prime the economy to get people back in work. As the economy revives and people get back to work, the deficit situation will begin to resolve itself.
> That was also the policy suggested by the LIb-Dems ( Vince Cable) until they sacrificed principle for power.
> 
> And after ploughing on unsuccessfully for 18 months and with a double-dip recession looming that is the policy (Plan B) Osborne seems to be switching to with his promised review in the Autumn ( after a good kicking from No. 10).



So what cuts were labour proposing?

I will give you a clue 8% cuts to policing instead of 12% the conservatives are making. You will still lose police. Labour would have to save the same amount of money or borrow even more 1 parliament of extra borrowing would be a minimum of ?600 billion if a four year term. to borrow that would cost at least ?80 million a day (feel free to correct my maths) meaning even more even deeper cuts in the future. That would be at current interest rates on borrowing which of cousre wouldn't be the same because we would have to pay more.
The only reason they could cut less police is because they would cut the NHS bugdet which the conservatives have protected, so it's eith less police or less doctors and nurses.


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## FM001 (Aug 14, 2011)

Irrespective of what Labour would have cut policing by compared to the Coalition, any politician with a ounce of sense would see that now is not the time for cuts in policing and if anything extra officers and extra funding should be made available to resolve the social unrest taking place in our inner cities.


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## Northerner (Aug 14, 2011)

toby said:


> Irrespective of what Labour would have cut policing by compared to the Coalition, any politician with a ounce of sense would see that now is not the time for cuts in policing and if anything extra officers and extra funding should be made available to resolve the social unrest taking place in our inner cities.



It's funny how we can afford to bomb Libya but not police our own streets...


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## ypauly (Aug 14, 2011)

toby said:


> Irrespective of what Labour would have cut policing by compared to the Coalition, any politician with a ounce of sense would see that now is not the time for cuts in policing and if anything extra officers and extra funding should be made available to resolve the social unrest taking place in our inner cities.



What labour would cut is relevent though, for the simple reason is the cuts HAVE to be made. Nobody wants cuts there isn't a single conservative in this land that doesn't want full employment, there isn't a single conservative that wants to cut police numbers. They are HAVING to do it there is NO alternative.


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## ypauly (Aug 14, 2011)

Northerner said:


> It's funny how we can afford to bomb Libya but not police our own streets...



Are we paying for that? If so is it going to cost more or less than the illegal war Labour took us in to?


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## Northerner (Aug 14, 2011)

ypauly said:


> Are we paying for that? If so is it going to cost more or less than the illegal war Labour took us in to?



Time will tell, doesn't look like Gaddafi is going to go any quicker than Saddam...I didn't agree with Iraq either, or Afghanistan. Why can't we be more like Swizerland? 

Who's paying for it if we aren't? They're our troops, planes and missiles.


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## FM001 (Aug 14, 2011)

ypauly said:


> What labour would cut is relevent though, for the simple reason is the cuts HAVE to be made. Nobody wants cuts there isn't a single conservative in this land that doesn't want full employment, there isn't a single conservative that wants to cut police numbers. They are HAVING to do it there is NO alternative.



If only that were true, Cameron is using the deficit as a excuse to implement his right-wing spending cuts similar to those of Margaret Thatcher in the early 80's, where she failed he is determined to continue.


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## ypauly (Aug 14, 2011)

toby said:


> If only that were true, Cameron is using the deficit as a excuse to implement his right-wing spending cuts similar to those of Margaret Thatcher in the early 80's, where she failed he is determined to continue.



Have you been asleep for the last 14 years? Tony and Gordon did more of that than maggie could ever have dreamed of.

The deficit is a propblem, a very real problem even Labour acknowledge that..


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## Ellie Jones (Aug 14, 2011)

If I remember rightly in the '80's Maggie actually increased our police force knowing that recession and cuts would bring trouble!


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## ypauly (Aug 14, 2011)

Ellie Jones said:


> If I remember rightly in the '80's Maggie actually increased our police force knowing that recession and cuts would bring trouble!



She is also the only prime minister since the war to actually repay debt leaving office with a smaller debt than she inherited.


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## Northerner (Aug 14, 2011)

ypauly said:


> She is also the only prime minister since the war to actually repay debt leaving office with a smaller debt than she inherited.



Perhaps because she flogged off the family silver!


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 14, 2011)

ypauly said:


> there is NO alternative.



Politicians only invoke TINA (there is no alternative) when they are doggedly pursuing unpopular and unsuccesful policies for ideological reasons. There are always sensible alternatives to any given policy. Cameron has read the Riot Act to Osborne and told him he has to find an alternative in his Autumn Review. No Prime Minister is going to cling on to an unpopular Chancellor for long.


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## mcdonagh47 (Aug 14, 2011)

Northerner said:


> It's funny how we can afford to bomb Libya but not police our own streets...



Unpopular Politicians need foriegn adventures to take people's minds off the problems at home e.g. Mrs T started a war and killed 1000 people in order to stay power.


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## ypauly (Aug 14, 2011)

mcdonagh47 said:


> Politicians only invoke TINA (there is no alternative) when they are doggedly pursuing unpopular and unsuccesful policies for ideological reasons. There are always sensible alternatives to any given policy. Cameron has read the Riot Act to Osborne and told him he has to find an alternative in his Autumn Review. No Prime Minister is going to cling on to an unpopular Chancellor for long.



So you have an alternative? Labour have one? Seems we are going round in circles. Labour and it's supporters are not happy with nearly bankrupting this country they actually want to finish the job and Borrow even more.

A question for You labour supporters. In the first ten years of office, Labour sold off our gold (too cheaply) they raided our pension funds and they doubled taxation so why in the 10th year 2007 were they still running with a deficit of ?30 Billion thats a massive overspend  that all happened before the banking problems.
So here's the question.


So do you think that was reckless?


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## Hazel (Aug 14, 2011)

hey guys - we obviously have opposing political views here, which is healthly, but let's not fall out over it - stress is bad for our BG levels.

Let's all just be thankful that the worst of last weeks riots are over.


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## ypauly (Aug 14, 2011)

Hazel said:


> hey guys - we obviously have opposing political views here, which is healthly, but let's not fall out over it - stress is bad for our BG levels.
> 
> Let's all just be thankful that the worst of last weeks riots are over.


I wouldn't fall out with anybody over a bunch of useless politicians Hazel lol

I just don't like the inference that the conservatives are in some way nasty or enjoying what they are having to do and will inevitably bite back everytime lol

To get back on topic. It doesn't matter who you vote for because there will be less police in two years time no matter which party is in office.


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## Hazel (Aug 14, 2011)

Sadly there will be fewer cops - maybe each party will have a change of heart


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## FM001 (Aug 14, 2011)

Hazel said:


> Sadly there will be fewer cops - maybe each party will have a change of heart




Undoubtedly there will be fewer officers as both the Association of Police Authorities and the Police Federation have expressed great concern over the cuts to budgets by 20 per cent. Most politicians and even some in the Tory ranks have called upon the government to scrap budget cuts  in the wake of last weeks troubles, Boris Johnston is in the news today suggesting that police numbers in London need to be urgently increased not reduced and says the government should reconsider. 

Next year which coincides with the Olympics is said to be the year when the condem cuts will begin to bite hard and effect the least well off in society, some analysts fear that last weeks riots will be small scale compared to what may become.


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## Hazel (Aug 14, 2011)

Born in '54, I grew up in an age where you respected your elders, peoples property,
and in particular, the police.

Dad was a serving policeman '48 to '85, so I grew up close to a police station, lots of policemen - knew most of them.

Things started going downhill, when kids were given rights.   Cheeky kids could accuse adults of anying and they were believed until it could be disproved.    

I do not wear rose coloured glasses, I know there are the odd few bad apples in the police, as there are in all walks of life.    I was brought up in a Christian home with morals and values - something I see as missing in a lot of modern homes today, especially recently.  

No respect for themselves or other people - sad!


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