# What we say oop North



## chaoticcar (Nov 29, 2021)

D o any fellow Northerners know the origin of mard as in don't be so mard  (not sure about the spelling )cos  we talk different up here 
Carol


----------



## Leadinglights (Nov 29, 2021)

chaoticcar said:


> D o any fellow Northerners know the origin of mard as in don't be so mard  (not sure about the spelling )cos  we talk different up here
> Carol


We always used to say mardy.

What is the origin of mardy? Mardy is a British dialect (the North and Midlands) adjective and noun meaning “spoiled, spoiled child; childish sulkiness.” Mardy is most likely formed from the adjective marred “damaged, spoiled,” originally the past participle of mar, and the native adjective suffix –y.


----------



## rebrascora (Nov 29, 2021)

I've heard the word "mardy" used but to me it is more of a Yorkshire maybe even Midlands word. Like a "Mardy Mare" would mean a stroppy lass". I'm in the North East so to me it would be a southern colloquial word, but that is just my interpretation and I could easily be wrong.


----------



## trophywench (Nov 29, 2021)

Mard as in mardy, ie grumpy/miserable/mean?  Didn't know where it came from or who said it first in my hearing but certainly generally understood to mean that whenever I've heard the word - may have been when I worked in Newcastle under Lyme, but not in general use around B'ham, Kidderminster or Coventry, as the only places I've lived.

'Mardy arse(d)' was the usual descriptive term !


----------



## rebrascora (Nov 29, 2021)

Looks like we are mostly on the same page at the moment with this....


----------



## chaoticcar (Nov 29, 2021)

It makes me wonder how words get into local dialects ,they seem to be dying out now which is a shame .My youngest daughter is I Africa as a volunteer and she was working with a young lady who was interested in how the English language is different in Canada where she came from.,so Beth decided to educate her ! She told here about being agate when talking to someone .The lady" so could I say Jesus was agate " Beth said "No no " "Why " was the reply" Jesus WERE agate "!!!
Carol


----------



## rebrascora (Nov 29, 2021)

But the English language is different almost everywhere it is spoken and I imagine other languages have dialects too. 

I find it amazing that even within local areas there will be distinct dialects, so I can differentiate between a Bishop Auckland dialect and a Darlington accent when there is only maybe 15 miles at the most distance between them. I live about 15 miles further north from Bishop, and the accent here in Derwentside is slightly different again even though the words used mostly remain the same. It really is quite a fascinating subject. I think the loss of colloquial words is sad as it is part of our culture and what gives us our identity but I also think it is important to know how to be grammatically correct. 

Ploat is an interesting one.... and I believe it stems from plucking chickens but can be used to describe birds ploating my strawberry patch or the berries on a tree .... ie something being stipped bare!


----------



## Drummer (Nov 29, 2021)

Seems like ordinary English to me - born within a gargoyles spit of York minster - to mar is to spoil something - so mardy should be obvious - shu'n't it?


----------



## chaoticcar (Nov 29, 2021)

Drummer said:


> Seems like ordinary English to me - born within a gargoyles spit of York minster - to mar is to spoil something - so mardy should be obvious - shu'n't it?


Makes sense to Mar is to spoil and a mardy kid is a spoilt brat (where does that come from )  A brat is a type of pinny or apron for any one not from up ere
Carol


----------



## mikeyB (Nov 29, 2021)

The word “agate” in Lancashire is easy to understand, especially if you know German. In German, “geht” means “going”, but in “agate” it means the same as the old English word agoing, often written as A-going meaning the action of going. It’s usage in conversation  is usually followed by a demonstration of a physical action.

It’s an English construction on a German word, because ageht in German means Come on. Funny how our invaders changed our language, mainly by the Normans, which is why we refer to Beef, (French) coming from a Cow (old English from the Germanic) and Pork (French) coming from a Pig ( OE)

The word “”brat” to mean an Apron is originally old Northumbrian, (meaning a cloak) and Scots, often spelled brait in Scots language poetry even now, and in common of usage in areas where Scots is commonly spoken, and possibly in borderland with Northumbria.


----------



## grovesy (Nov 29, 2021)

I am from the North East  originally and it is not a term I had heard of till recent years.


----------



## helli (Nov 29, 2021)

I love the various dialects we have in the UK. 
I remember "mardy" from the Nottingham side of my family.

Recently, I learnt about "plodging" (to wade through water or mud) from my Geordie boyfriend. I think it's onomatopoeic .. at least it sounds as if it should be. And I like the word onomatopoeic


----------



## rebrascora (Nov 29, 2021)

helli said:


> I love the various dialects we have in the UK.
> I remember "mardy" from the Nottingham side of my family.
> 
> Recently, I learnt about "plodging" (to wade through water or mud) from my Geordie boyfriend. I think it's onomatopoeic .. at least it sounds as if it should be. And I like the word onomatopoeic



Oh yes, plodging is a great word and nithered is very appropriate with the current weather.


----------



## Drummer (Nov 29, 2021)

How about brussen - cruel and hurtful - fairly obvious if you thing of bruising, but not everyday.


----------



## Essex (Nov 30, 2021)

You are all Northerners now for me, the Portuguese refer to 'Nordic' countries as anywhere above the South of France  

My Nan was from Nottingham - she spoke funny, always said eeeeeyyy-oooop (without her teeth in) to make us laugh (not sure if this is actually Nots tho)

Last week I was in a Zoom meeting with someone in Newcastle (orig Sheffield) and he said he could still hear the 'Suffolk' in my accent (i'ts actually b@stardised N Essex) - I was so proud

Mum and dad sound like the Wurzels to me now - "Aya-got-a-loit-boiy?", and I still say "on the hu' " and there was always a "tut box" full of the old nuts and bolts etc to look in when you couldnt find one in the workshop
What about 'all the while' ? is that 'normal' English? - I remember people in Southampton taking the mickey for that

Such a real shame that it is all being lost with the relentless march of homogenisation

Portugal doesnt have any where near the same high 'gradient' of accent change, although no one can understand a word of the Azoreanos - Its like Glassweigan

The UK is such a rich place in terms of culture and variation


----------



## chaoticcar (Nov 30, 2021)

In the Lancashire mills the workers had a way of communicating called Mee- Moing   The mills are all closed now so not many will know how to mee -mo any more 
Carol


----------



## trophywench (Nov 30, 2021)

chaoticcar said:


> In the Lancashire mills the workers had a way of communicating called Mee- Moing   The mills are all closed now so not many will know how to mee -mo any more
> Carol


Ah, well - in noisy industries so eg weaving sheds, drop-forgers, newsprinting ..... there had always to be some way of communicating other than normal speech/language - plus the trade terminology - and this is how sign language for the deaf started to develop cos nobody had yet invented hearing defenders let alone made em compulsory!

Everyone who is born upon this septic isle, is a mongrel, like it or not.  I'd imagine the whole of Europe is much the same, surely the whole of Iberia had quite a Moorish influence? - not ONLY Spain.


----------



## rebrascora (Nov 30, 2021)

trophywench said:


> Everyone who is born upon this* septic* isle, is a mongrel, like it or not.


Go steady Jenny I don't think this country is quite that bad yet!! Don't mind being called a mongrel but suggesting we live in a sewer is a bit much!


----------



## trophywench (Nov 30, 2021)

Aahhh - just one possible modern interpretation of John o' Gaunt's speech!


----------



## Sally71 (Nov 30, 2021)

My husband is born and bred in the East Midlands, I am not, I moved here from the south coast firstly when I was a student and then permanently when I got a job here and then married.  So I’m probably a bit of a hybrid, my family think I sound “northern” now, and everyone round here can instantly tell I’m a southerner.  And so I tend to know slang terminology from both areas.  Round here they all say mardy, down south it would be stroppy.  I used to nearly always refer to men as “geezers”, my husband would pretend to get very upset about this and say “they are not geezers, they are blokes!”. Once we were talking about something and decided to go and have a look at it, I said “let’s go and have a squizz” and my husband looked rather confused for a second and then said “oh do you mean a shufti?”   Actually I’m not even sure where I got the word squizz from, might even have made it up...
As I am not native to this area the language and accent sounds all the same to me, but people who have always lived in the area can even tell which city you are from.  Around here people use the word ”numpty” a lot to mean someone who isn’t very clever, hubby apparently didn’t know what that meant and he grew up only about 20 miles away!


----------



## rebrascora (Nov 30, 2021)

@trophywench I think you mean scepter'd isle.... very different to septic


----------



## trophywench (Dec 1, 2021)

Of course the quote is sceptered but read the speech in context - John o' Gaunt was complaining that the country was going or had gone to the dogs at the time ........


----------



## trophywench (Dec 1, 2021)

Anyone else familiar with the verb, to gongoozle?  (Think canals ....)


----------



## Sally71 (Dec 1, 2021)

trophywench said:


> Anyone else familiar with the verb, to gongoozle?  (Think canals ....)


Yes, my in-laws own a canal boat and they taught me that one!


----------



## chaoticcar (Dec 1, 2021)

Sally71 said:


> My husband is born and bred in the East Midlands, I am not, I moved here from the south coast firstly when I was a student and then permanently when I got a job here and then married.  So I’m probably a bit of a hybrid, my family think I sound “northern” now, and everyone round here can instantly tell I’m a southerner.  And so I tend to know slang terminology from both areas.  Round here they all say mardy, down south it would be stroppy.  I used to nearly always refer to men as “geezers”, my husband would pretend to get very upset about this and say “they are not geezers, they are blokes!”. Once we were talking about something and decided to go and have a look at it, I said “let’s go and have a squizz” and my husband looked rather confused for a second and then said “oh do you mean a shufti?”   Actually I’m not even sure where I got the word squizz from, might even have made it up...
> As I am not native to this area the language and accent sounds all the same to me, but people who have always lived in the area can even tell which city you are from.  Around here people use the word ”numpty” a lot to mean someone who isn’t very clever, hubby apparently didn’t know what that meant and he grew up only about 20 miles away!


Here in Lancashire we go and have a gander no idea where that came from
Carol


----------



## helli (Dec 1, 2021)

chaoticcar said:


> Here in Lancashire we go and have a gander no idea where that came from
> Carol


I always assumed it was related to nosey geese?


----------



## Chris Hobson (Dec 1, 2021)

Mention of the word mardy made me think of the Arctic Monkeys:


"Well now then Mardy Bum
I've seen your frown
And it's like looking down the barrel of a gun
And it goes off
And out come all these words
Oh there's a very pleasant side to you
A side I much prefer..."


----------



## Burylancs (Dec 1, 2021)

mikeyB said:


> The word “agate” in Lancashire is easy to understand, especially if you know German. In German, “geht” means “going”, but in “agate” it means the same as the old English word agoing, often written as A-going meaning the action of going. It’s usage in conversation  is usually followed by a demonstration of a physical action.
> 
> It’s an English construction on a German word, because ageht in German means Come on. Funny how our invaders changed our language, mainly by the Normans, which is why we refer to Beef, (French) coming from a Cow (old English from the Germanic) and Pork (French) coming from a Pig ( OE)
> 
> The word “”brat” to mean an Apron is originally old Northumbrian, (meaning a cloak) and Scots, often spelled brait in Scots language poetry even now, and in common of usage in areas where Scots is commonly spoken, and possibly in borderland with Northumbria.


The 300 mostly commonly used nouns in English are Danish in origin, egg, sky, mother, father etc. A Viking heritage.


----------



## mikeyB (Dec 1, 2021)

Well, born and bred in East Lancashire, we wouldn't have a gander, it was a sken. Not to be confused with skeng, which is a term used by London Gangs for a particular weapon, said to look like a large black dildo.


----------



## eggyg (Dec 2, 2021)

In Cumbria we would have a deek! For example “ let’s deek ower here Marra!” Translation. “ let’s look over here my friend.” Cumbrian is a strange dialect, I would only use it for effect, I hasten to add!


----------



## rebrascora (Dec 2, 2021)

Interesting that you have "Marra" across in the west as well, Elaine. I had very much associated that with the North East here. Anyone want to suggest a language or word source for that one?


----------



## Docb (Dec 2, 2021)

When I lived in West Cumbria I was told that  "marra" was a name used by the miners to refer to somebody who had saved their life down a mine.  Maybe it is common to mining areas.

Mardy and its derivatives was well used in the potteries, where I was born.  It was one of my grandmothers favourite ways of referring to her collection of children and even bigger collection of grandchildren.


----------



## eggyg (Dec 2, 2021)

Marra is definitely more West Cumbrian than North Cumbria. I lived in West Cumbria as a child, 5-10 years. It’s like a totally different language from Carlisle. That’s interesting @Docb re the origin of Marra. I never knew that. 
@rebrascora I never knew it was used in the North East but of course a big mining community there too.


----------



## eggyg (Dec 2, 2021)

helli said:


> I love the various dialects we have in the UK.
> I remember "mardy" from the Nottingham side of my family.
> 
> Recently, I learnt about "plodging" (to wade through water or mud) from my Geordie boyfriend. I think it's onomatopoeic .. at least it sounds as if it should be. And I like the word onomatopoeic


I like clarty, very onomatopoeic too I think, means very, very muddy and squelchy.


----------



## chaoticcar (Dec 2, 2021)

mikeyB said:


> Well, born and bred in East Lancashire, we wouldn't have a gander, it was a sken. Not to be confused with skeng, which is a term used by London Gangs for a particular weapon, said to look like a large black dildo.


Interesting when I was in school in Blackburn 60 something years ago skenning meant being nosy (what you skennin at ) 
Carol


----------



## rebrascora (Dec 2, 2021)

eggyg said:


> Marra is definitely more West Cumbrian than North Cumbria. I lived in West Cumbria as a child, 5-10 years. It’s like a totally different language from Carlisle. That’s interesting @Docb re the origin of Marra. I never knew that.
> @rebrascora I never knew it was used in the North East but of course a big mining community there too.


Yes, it is a term that I would associate with miners and this was a big mining area. I think it is someone that you would trust with your life and did so every day because mining was such a dangerous profession that you needed those close bonds but I don't think it was used in such a small context here as someone *who had *saved your life..... just your close work mate that you relied on and trusted. 
I believe in my grandfathers day, miners worked in pairs and were hired together to work in partnership and were paid for the amount of coal they could extract in a day as a pair, so they would take turns working the seam and loading a tub as each job used different muscles and one was often lying down in a confined space while the other was hunched over because there wasn't room to stand upright.  A good pairing of hard workers on a decent seam could do quite well. You both had to be prepared to work hard to make a decent living and if either of you got injured it affected both of your livelihoods.
Anyway, that is my understanding of what a "marra" was. It is hard to imagine that sort of hardship and danger but you can understand how very close bonds would be formed.
I wonder if the Welsh and Nottingham coal miners also had marras or if it is purely a northern term.


----------



## everydayupsanddowns (Dec 2, 2021)

I first heard ‘mardy’ from Midlanders (Nottingham, Leicester, Birmingham, Wolverhampton) when I was at art college in Coventry.

Jane used to tease me mercilessly about ‘scrage’ which is a Bristolian term for something between a stratch and a graze, ”Ouch! I’ve scraged me knee”


----------



## rebrascora (Dec 2, 2021)

eggyg said:


> I like clarty, very onomatopoeic too I think, means very, very muddy and squelchy.


And "hacky" too.... meaning filthy, dirty.


----------



## helli (Dec 2, 2021)

eggyg said:


> I like clarty, very onomatopoeic too I think, means very, very muddy and squelchy.


That's confusing - my MIL refers to a tea with a big spread (sandwiches, quiche, sausage rolls, etc.) as a "Clarty Party".
She is not the most adventurous of cooks but I wouldn't describe any of her baking as "very very muddy and squelchy"   

Isn't language fun!


----------



## grovesy (Dec 2, 2021)

eggyg said:


> I like clarty, very onomatopoeic too I think, means very, very muddy and squelchy.


God that takes me back to my North East roots. That is what it means to me!


----------



## Docb (Dec 2, 2021)

@eggyg, @rebrascora - the definition of marra was given to me by a West Cumbrian who came from a mining family that I worked with at Sellafield.  I am sure that if I asked somebody else I would no doubt have got a different derivation but no doubt both would have in common the reliance of work mates on each other in what was a dangerous place to work.

The same source told me that both his father and grandfather were both miners at the Haig colliery in Whitehaven.  He told the story of the big underground fire at that pit where a lot of people died.  Either his father or grandfather ( I don't remember which) was part of the party that walled up a gallery to stop the fire spreading on the assumption all those in there must have perished.  When they reopened the seam some time later having assumed that the fire had extinguished itself, they found the remains of some miners on the other side of the wall. They had somehow survived the fire only to find their exit blocked.   Yes, mining was a hard and dangerous life in those days.

Incidentally, my Dads family had numerous members who worked in the North Staffs coal field, and I don't remember marra being part of their vocabulary.

An finally, whilst in anecdotal mode, my West Colleague would agree about West Cumbrian dialect being different to Carlise and in West Cumbria itself there were different dialects.  He would assert that in West Cumbria he could readily identify which village the older people came from by their dialect.


----------



## Sally71 (Dec 2, 2021)

When I worked in Nottingham a lad there actually got nicknamed Marra because he called everyone else that but couldn’t understand why nobody else had heard the term!


----------



## eggyg (Dec 2, 2021)

helli said:


> That's confusing - my MIL refers to a tea with a big spread (sandwiches, quiche, sausage rolls, etc.) as a "Clarty Party".
> She is not the most adventurous of cooks but I wouldn't describe any of her baking as "very very muddy and squelchy"
> 
> Isn't language fun!


We say clarty party too, usually a kids birthday party, I think in this context it means messy/sticky. Or it could be because it rhymes with party!


----------



## eggyg (Dec 2, 2021)

Spookily enough as I was writing that last comment, I glanced up and spotted this on the wall of the holiday cottage we’ve just checked into in Hawkshead. I told you the Cumbrian dialect was weird.


----------



## rebrascora (Dec 2, 2021)

@eggyg That is really interesting!. I could see how the 5 being pimp could look very similar to the German funf and the 10 being "dick" is very similar to the French dix but the others look to be a right strange concoction!


----------



## elliem (Dec 2, 2021)

In Nottingham we say 'Mardy' to mean someone whinging and petulant.


----------



## trophywench (Dec 2, 2021)

The south Welsh mining term for marra is butty.  The general American word is of course buddy - and anyone who has learned to dive will have had a buddy - it's compulsory to have one to this day when going down more than X depth.  I wonder whether marra is actually a (kind of) reference to the bone marrow? - ie he's my friend and he helps save my bone marrow if I get into danger and I, his? (saving each other's lives)

Think the numerical terminology was more widespread cos I've certainly heard yan, tan, tethera etc before, somewhere or another.


----------



## silentsquirrel (Dec 3, 2021)

I can't see any detail on @eggyg  's poster, but googling shepherd counting brings up the system,Celtic origins.  Pump (pronounced pimp) is Welsh for 5.  
I first came across a version of this in Monica Edwards Westling series books as a child, so Sussex shepherds, not Celtic.  More recently Amanda Owen (Our Yorkshire Farm on TV) teaching some of her children.


----------



## Contused (Dec 3, 2021)

eggyg said:


> I like clarty, very onomatopoeic too I think, means very, very muddy and squelchy.


Indeed, something I wrote nearly 20 years ago…

Returned from N. Yorks in fine fettle,
Through weather that tested my mettle.
I’ve plodged through deep clarts
In search of fine tarts,
And found one, a mince pie, in Settle.


----------



## nonethewiser (Dec 4, 2021)

rebrascora said:


> Yes, it is a term that I would associate with miners and this was a big mining area. I think it is someone that you would trust with your life and did so every day because mining was such a dangerous profession that you needed those close bonds but I don't think it was used in such a small context here as someone *who had *saved your life..... just your close work mate that you relied on and trusted.
> I believe in my grandfathers day, miners worked in pairs and were hired together to work in partnership and were paid for the amount of coal they could extract in a day as a pair, so they would take turns working the seam and loading a tub as each job used different muscles and one was often lying down in a confined space while the other was hunched over because there wasn't room to stand upright.  A good pairing of hard workers on a decent seam could do quite well. You both had to be prepared to work hard to make a decent living and if either of you got injured it affected both of your livelihoods.
> Anyway, that is my understanding of what a "marra" was. It is hard to imagine that sort of hardship and danger but you can understand how very close bonds would be formed.
> I wonder if the Welsh and Nottingham coal miners also had marras or if it is purely a northern term.



Very interesting, always thought it was west cumbria term, never heard it said elsewhere.

Miners of old had hard life, visited Beamish years ago & was talking to old retired miner near pit entrance, had to buy own equipment & if they got injured so couldn't work they were asked to leave cottage, same with family left behind if miners were killed.


----------



## mikeyB (Dec 4, 2021)

Eggy's poster of Cumbrian dialect is interesting. They sound like corruptions of Polish, so maybe there was an influx of east European miners in the past. If you know how to speak Polish you can't appreciate the similarity by simply looking at the spellings, the Polish alphabet is a bit longer than ours. It's not a Gaelic source, Irish or Scottish.


----------



## silentsquirrel (Dec 4, 2021)

mikeyB said:


> Eggy's poster of Cumbrian dialect is interesting. They sound like corruptions of Polish, so maybe there was an influx of east European miners in the past. If you know how to speak Polish you can't appreciate the similarity by simply looking at the spellings, the Polish alphabet is a bit longer than ours. It's not a Gaelic source, Irish or Scottish.











						Yan tan tethera pethera pimp — an old system for counting sheep
					

If any lightfoot Clod Dewvale was to hold me up, dicksturping me and marauding me of my rights to my onus, yan, tyan, tethera, methera, pimp, I’d let him have my best pair of galloper’s…




					stancarey.wordpress.com


----------



## Chris Hobson (Dec 5, 2021)

The Hull accent is thought to have been influenced by an influx of Dutch drainage engineers. Much of Holderness was very soggy and has been made into useable farmland due to improved drainage. The pronunciation of vowels particularly 'O' is fairly distinctive. EG:

There is sner in Frerm Rerd.

There is snow in Frome Road.

Here Frome is pronounced as it is spelled rather that being pronounced Froom.


----------



## mikeyB (Dec 7, 2021)

Those Dutch engineers will have to return if sea levels rise by a metre or so...


----------



## trophywench (Dec 7, 2021)

silentsquirrel said:


> I can't see any detail on @eggyg  's poster, but googling shepherd counting brings up the system,Celtic origins.  Pump (pronounced pimp) is Welsh for 5.
> I first came across a version of this in Monica Edwards Westling series books as a child, so Sussex shepherds, not Celtic.  More recently Amanda Owen (Our Yorkshire Farm on TV) teaching some of her children.


Yep - Monica Edwards books would have been where I got it from too!


----------



## travellor (Dec 8, 2021)

Google "marde"  - the french to english translation.
(Not Tuesday)
It's a corruption of "merde"


----------

