# Not everyone wants a 'normal' Christmas if it means a harsher lockdown to come



## Northerner

(Opinion piece)


Binge in December, purge in January.

Or at least, that’s the way Britain normally does Christmas: a brief splurge of shopping, partying and stuffing our faces, before waddling into new year skint, hungover and carrying an extra half a stone. Boris Johnson is clearly a stickler for tradition, to judge from early briefings about a superspreader Yule in which up to three households could be allowed to mingle for up to five days and to hell with the consequences for intensive care units. But is a big blowout, paid for by yet more lockdown when the R number inevitably surges, really what we want this year?

January is horrible enough as it is: a season of divorce lawyers, diets and regrets. But to afford a “normal” Christmas with all the trimmings this year, it’s going to be January for months. Next week we’re likely to emerge from the current lockdown into a stricter version of the tiered semi-lockdowns that were in force before it, and stay there or thereabouts until a critical mass of Britons are vaccinated. With luck, that might mean March.

The government reportedly expected to face a “mutiny of mums” if it didn’t unlock for December, but an Opinium poll for this weekend’s Observer found over half of the public would rather have a locked-down Christmas with fewer restrictions, with broad agreement across demographics. All the way through this pandemic, a government whose own instincts tend to the libertarian have consistently assumed the nation to be more gung ho than it actually is, and I suspect may have done so again.









						Not everyone wants a normal Christmas if it means a harsher lockdown to come | Gaby Hinsliff
					

Boris Johnson is obsessing over tradition, but many would prefer to keep festivities small, and try something different this year, says Guardian columnist Gaby Hinsliff




					www.theguardian.com


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## pm133

Nobody is forcing anyone to meet up at Christmas.
If more than half of the population are that worried about it, they can continue with their own personal lockdown. Nobody is stopping them.
Intensive care units will cope and we still have the nightingale hospitals to fall back on.

It's about time people stopped blaming the government for everything and took some personal responsibility. We should be capable of exercising our own judgment on safety and shouldn't need to be spoonfed by a group of out-of-touch millionaires in the cabinet.


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## nonethewiser

During World Wars sacrifices were made at Christmas, loved ones away fighting food shortages even basics in short supply, people didn't moan they just got on with it & made most of what they had.

Government would be wrong to relax things for sake of one day, virus needs controlled & until mas vaccination is possible then mixing should be restricted,  anyway many people will be pleased not to entertain relatives over festivities,


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## Northerner

nonethewiser said:


> Government would be wrong to relax things for sake of one day, virus needs controlled & until mas vaccination is possible then mixing should be restricted, anyway many people will be pleased not to entertain relatives over festivities,


I came across this today, makes a point I don't hear being made much, but perhaps ought to be.


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## pm133

Sporting events fan restrictions are to be relaxed. Up to 4000 fans will be allowed to attend football matches etc. Not sure of the timescales but I think it's when lockdown ends and areas go to tier 2.
About time. We simply cannot go on cowering under the bedsheets from this thing.


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## Hardy

I think the majority of people are taking responsibility, and will make decisions about V=Christmas based on their perceived risks.
I disagree with the comment we are "cowering under the bedsheets from this thing."


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## grovesy

I am not convinced people are being responsible, I sat in the car while my husband popped in to Sainsbury's yesterday to buy some parsnips. The car park was heaving and nearly every car had more one person going in and coming out of the store.


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## Ralph-YK

This year it'll be at least half normal. You'll be stuck somewhere over Christmas. Just not with family.  We need a good lock down to avoid being stuck with family. Unless you're living with them 


pm133 said:


> Nobody is forcing anyone to meet up at Christmas.
> If more than half of the population are that worried about it, they can continue with their own personal lockdown. Nobody is stopping them.


Try telling my family that. Attending is always required!


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## pm133

Ralph-YK said:


> *Try telling my family that. Attending is always required!*


I feel your pain. Took me a few years to fathom out how to put a stop to that. So glad I did though.


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## belugalad

I thought people would be happy to not have relatives visiting so they could do their own thing for one year


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## eggyg

Our immediate family ( children/ partners/ grandchildren) is four households and 12 bodies. We decided as a family back in September that we would all spend Christmas at our respective homes.  Our eldest daughter, she has three children and lives on a farm an hour’s drive away, is actually relieved she said as she finds it really stressful getting the kids organised and feeding all the animals and prepping the Christmas meal before going out to “ visit”, as I did back in the day as a parent of three children. I think the plan will be for us to visit our daughters and grandchildren individually, unwrap presents and go! Just because Boris says we can doesn’t mean we have to!


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## eggyg

Northerner said:


> I came across this today, makes a point I don't hear being made much, but perhaps ought to be.
> 
> View attachment 15649


I saw something the other day which made perfect sense to me. Someone defiantly said they WERE visiting their elderly parents as it could be their last Christmas. Someone retorted they WEREN’T visiting their elderly parents so it wasn’t their last Christmas.


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## pm133

eggyg said:


> I saw something the other day which made perfect sense to me. Someone defiantly said they WERE visiting their elderly parents as it could be their last Christmas. Someone retorted they WEREN’T visiting their elderly parents so it wasn’t their last Christmas.


To be fair, the person who made that retort had no business doing so.
People are entitled to make their own decisions and I'm sure elderly relatives will be part of that process and can make their own minds up without strangers judging them.


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## Northerner

Hehe! Just spotted this


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## Ralph-YK

Just been on the phone with my mum. She's already starting getting onto me about going to her's and stopping. And it's Not Even DECEMBER Yet.
"Awwww _Ralph..._"


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## trophywench

Well frankly much as I miss the little ones when they decide to be delightful, one has to say that very often they don't wake up that morning in that frame of mind, and there is very good reason why the human female body is designed to bear children only when it is young!!!

This Great Grandma and Grandpa are actually quite looking forward to an Xmas Day eating food they have chosen and drinking whatever they'd like to drink as Grandad hasn't got to drive anywhere, at the time it suits them, then watching the telly progs they want to watch, thanks very much.  They need make no provision for anyone not liking tomatoes, baked beans, trifle sponges in trifle, booze in ditto, smoked salmon or anything else we like and others don't.  If I can remember how to cook it of course .. where on earth can I get beef fillet or bone-in rib these days?  LOL


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## belugalad

My sons turned 18 last week and he had lived with me half of the time,but I've decided not to see  him for a few months as he has a 7 year old sister at his mothers house who is at school and I see that as a risk factor for the virus being carried to our home via my son.If it takes me 6 months not to see him to keep my mother and myself safe,I will do that.It's not a long time,and it's not worth the risk to my mother who is bedbound with dementia.One Christmas is certainly not the end of the world to miss


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## Ditto

> We simply cannot go on cowering under the bedsheets from this thing.


I'd rather be under a temporary bed sheet than under a permanent shroud.


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## pm133

Ditto said:


> I'd rather be under a temporary bed sheet than under a permanent shroud.


I'd rather die a free man taking my chances with covid than stay alive cowering under the bedsheets for months and possibly years. 
Actually it would be very interesting to know what proportion of the population have that same view. I'm not persuaded by polls suggesting majority support for lockdown. I suspect there's a silent majority who are done with this thing and want all restrictions removed now but don't want to admit that to pollsters.


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## Bruce Stephens

pm133 said:


> I'd rather die a free man taking my chances with covid than stay alive cowering under the bedsheets for months and possibly years.


But it wouldn't be that. We know things get better in summer, so if the government had half a brain collectively they could use that to get us into a better position for next winter, especially with these faster (but less accurate) cheaper tests. We could control this much more successfully.

And now we've got multiple vaccines (which seem unexpectedly effective). So even with an inept government there's a really good chance that next year will be much safer.


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## Ditto

What's the longest a pandemic / epidemic has ever lasted? I know they can come back over time like the Black Death etc., but I'm thinking Spanish Flu was the longest lasting with three waves? Even that fizzled out eventually so there's light at the end of the tunnel. Always look on the bright side of life...


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## grovesy

Ditto said:


> What's the longest a pandemic / epidemic has ever lasted? I know they can come back over time like the Black Death etc., but I'm thinking Spanish Flu was the longest lasting with three waves? Even that fizzled out eventually so there's light at the end of the tunnel. Always look on the bright side of life...


I saw a program on the Black Death and actually it did last as long as the Spanish Flu.


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## pm133

Bruce Stephens said:


> But it wouldn't be that. We know things get better in summer, so if the government had half a brain collectively they could use that to get us into a better position for next winter, especially with these faster (but less accurate) cheaper tests. We could control this much more successfully.
> 
> And now we've got multiple vaccines (which seem unexpectedly effective). So even with an inept government there's a really good chance that next year will be much safer.


Yes but I'm not interested in waiting until summer and putting my life on hold in the meantime.


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## Sally71

pm133 said:


> Yes but I'm not interested in waiting until summer and putting my life on hold in the meantime.


I think we’re all getting fed up with this situation, BUT the virus is still there.  So you really need to be asking how much do you care about your loved ones.  I haven’t seen my parents since February or my brother since last Christmas, and I desperately want to visit them this Christmas, even though it would probably have to be for one day only rather than the 3-4 we usually have, and it won’t be a normal Christmas by any stretch of the imagination.  Obviously my parents get a say in the matter too, they will probably insist on social distancing, and if they would rather not take the risk then I’ll have to lump it and hope that by this time next year things will be considerably more normal and we can have a big blow-out then to make up for it.  If we do decide to go, hopefully everything will be OK but there will always be the little niggly thought “what if I’m the one being an idiot, and if my parents get ill because of my actions, I’ll never forgive myself”
It's a toughie for sure!


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## Ralph-YK

It's been longer for me. For a full year I've been stopping at home not doing anything 'cause of health reasons.
As for Christmas, my mum is 87. It's not only my risk; her's too.


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## pm133

Sally71 said:


> I think we’re all getting fed up with this situation, BUT the virus is still there.  So you really need to be asking how much do you care about your loved ones.  I haven’t seen my parents since February or my brother since last Christmas, and I desperately want to visit them this Christmas, even though it would probably have to be for one day only rather than the 3-4 we usually have, and it won’t be a normal Christmas by any stretch of the imagination.  Obviously my parents get a say in the matter too, they will probably insist on social distancing, and if they would rather not take the risk then I’ll have to lump it and hope that by this time next year things will be considerably more normal and we can have a big blow-out then to make up for it.  If we do decide to go, hopefully everything will be OK but there will always be the little niggly thought “what if I’m the one being an idiot, and if my parents get ill because of my actions, I’ll never forgive myself”
> It's a toughie for sure!


And if it ends up being their last Christmas anyway and you hadn't visited, how would you feel then?

There isn't a guilt-free option.

This isn't about how much I care about my loved ones. It's understanding that life is risk, making appropriate judgements and being prepared to live with the consequences of your decision. Making decisions based on fear is not for me.


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## Sally71

If I thought they were that close to checking out for good, I’d go.  But hopefully they aren’t.  I'll let them make the final decision about Christmas.  I hope you have a good Christmas too, with people who agree with your assessment of the risk.  And probably, whatever we do, we'll all be fine.


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## Ralph-YK

Risk assessment and judgement is a whole discipline in its self. As is assessing evidence.
We all need to make a judgement, taking into a count our own personal & families situation, as best we can.
With my mum being in her late 80s, although she isn't ill, I have to be prepared for the possibility of her having an accident, another stroke, etc. Or just die. At any time.
There's also the chance that I could die at any time. (See threads on my heart condition.)
There will always be a though about the time could have spent with her. Compared to the risk in the current situation.

I'm still currently working on my bucket list.


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## KARNAK

Can I join this conversation just to get up some peoples nose, 
does any one know what christmas is about?
Can anyone prove Jesus was born on christmas day the 25th of December?
Where in the Bible does it say we have to celebrate the birth of Jesus or New Year?
we have to thank Julius Caesar for that. (New Year)

Just food for thought Covid-19 is man made and its up to man to sort it out.

I also saw the program on the Black Death and it was proven that social
distancing and self isolation was a major factor in curing this disease and
rats already infested with the plague would pass their fleas onto humans
mostly the lower classes because washing and cleaning wasn`t a part of
their daily/weekly routine so the fleas thought they were in flesh/blood city.

Fumigation through a household or building proved to be very effective and
along with social distancing and self isolation proved to be the downfall of this
disease. Although the fumigation worked by killing the fleas the social distancing
and self isolation was the first break through in this Pandemic, *sound familiar?*

Enjoy you evening folks.


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## Bruce Stephens

KARNAK said:


> Can anyone prove Jesus was born on christmas day the 25th of December?


Nobody thinks that, obviously. (And for Christians the main festival is apparently Easter anyway.)
Wanting a midwinter festival of some sort seems perfectly reasonable to me, and pretending that it's religious is fine.

From my perspective skipping this year's (or delaying it a little, or changing it) just seems like a reasonable and useful thing to do.


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## pm133

Sally71 said:


> If I thought they were that close to checking out for good, I’d go.  But hopefully they aren’t.  I'll let them make the final decision about Christmas.  I hope you have a good Christmas too, with people who agree with your assessment of the risk.  *And probably, whatever we do, we'll all be fine*.


You don't always get warning of people dying.
I think that bit in bold is very likely and it's been the case for the entirety of the pandemic that the vast majority are not going to be affected in any way.


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## grovesy

KARNAK said:


> Can I join this conversation just to get up some peoples nose,
> does any one know what christmas is about?
> Can anyone prove Jesus was born on christmas day the 25th of December?
> Where in the Bible does it say we have to celebrate the birth of Jesus or New Year?
> we have to thank Julius Caesar for that. (New Year)
> 
> Just food for thought Covid-19 is man made and its up to man to sort it out.
> 
> I also saw the program on the Black Death and it was proven that social
> distancing and self isolation was a major factor in curing this disease and
> rats already infested with the plague would pass their fleas onto humans
> mostly the lower classes because washing and cleaning wasn`t a part of
> their daily/weekly routine so the fleas thought they were in flesh/blood city.
> 
> Fumigation through a household or building proved to be very effective and
> along with social distancing and self isolation proved to be the downfall of this
> disease. Although the fumigation worked by killing the fleas the social distancing
> and self isolation was the first break through in this Pandemic, *sound familiar?*
> 
> Enjoy you evening folks.


That sounds the same one I saw on the Black Death I found it intresting. 
I am not a fan of Xmas.


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## KARNAK

Bruce Stephens said:


> Nobody thinks that, obviously. (And for Christians the main festival is apparently Easter anyway.)
> Wanting a midwinter festival of some sort seems perfectly reasonable to me, and pretending that it's religious is fine.
> 
> From my perspective skipping this year's (or delaying it a little, or changing it) just seems like a reasonable and useful thing to do.



I`ll say the same about easter Bruce another pagan festival ,where in the New Testament
does it say celebrate Jesus death or resurrection? and where do the cute little bunny rabbits 
come into it? Also according to the Ten Commandments the second Commandment is
Thou shalt not worship any Graven Image, then why do catholics and the anglican denominations 
insist their "punters" insist on kissing the feet of a Graven image? don`t tell me but its Jesus
both denominations believe God, Son and the Holy Ghost are but one God does that not make
them kiss the feet of a Graven image?

Want me to go on?


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## Bruce Stephens

KARNAK said:


> I`ll say the same about easter Bruce another pagan festival


Yes, it's another adopted pre-Christian festival (of spring, rebirth, the end of winter, etc.). But if you're going to celebrate one of them I can understand why they'd choose the Easter one as the more significant (where the sacrifice is supposed to have happened).


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## KARNAK

Explain sacrifice against crucifixion please Bruce?


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## Ditto

LOL Karnak you made me laugh out loud really. 

Look don't knock it, so us Christians nicked the pagan festivals I'm just going with it, bit of light in the darkness. People are putting their lights up round here already, yay I say.

The images thing does make me pause but I'm thinking if Himself made us then he made us flawed so He'll just have to put up with it. I luvs a Mary statue, have one outside my front door at the flat, cost me 50p at the carboot back in the day. My friend in New Orleans has an Our Lady garden with statue, us Catholics luvs all that stuff. Nostradamus did say that thing tho' didn't he? Hmm.. maybe I should be worried.  Mind you, he was RC too, knew which side his bread was buttered.

Did y'all watch that Plague programme in three parts eek it was the rotten louses all the time, giving the poor rats a bad rap. I like rats. Human fleas and body lice urk.


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## mikeyB

The church adopted pagan festivals already present. Christmas is really the midwinter festival, celebrated at the winter equinox, from when the nights start getting shorter and the days longer. So the boozy celebration we have been celebrated long before Christ, and has rightly become re-paganised, celebrating as our distant ancestors did. Midwinter was more important than midsummer, so some think that Stonehenge was built as guide to that celebration.

Easter is easier to decode. The word Easter has the same derivation as Oestrus, and similar words (oestrogen for example) referring to female sexuality and receptivity. Spring is when many animals start making babies. And that’s where we get Easter eggs. The Easter Bunny has a long history, when the fighting hares appear in the fields. Another food crop (very tasty, too) appearing in spring. This predates rabbits, of course, which were introduced as a food crop by the Romans.

The church has moulded the Spring festival into a celebration of rebirth, or resurrection. If you’ve ever wondered why Easter is variable in date, it’s because it’s the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox. That’s what Constantine declared anyway. It happens that way because he used the Jewish calendar, which is based on the moon cycles. So on the Jewish calendar it’s a fixed date, (not that they celebrate Easter) and variable in our calendar. So blame Emperor Constantine, Holy Roman Emperor, who murdered his brother on the way to the top job, so  just the sort of person you want organising your religious holidays. So if the varying date annoys you, you know who to blame.


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## everydayupsanddowns

mikeyB said:


> So the boozy celebration we have been celebrated long before Christ



I’ve heard a theory that it was timed to coincide with Saturnalia - a Roman festival. Which allowed the fledgling Christian church to hide their celabrations among all the general hubbub, at a time when Christians were being routinely killed for not acknowledging the Caesar of the day as a God.


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## Inka

A theory based in truth, I believe @everydayupsanddowns  Lots of newer religions incorporated or co-opted earlier celebrations, both as a cover and to claim them for their new religion.


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## mikeydt1

SAGE don't want anyone to have a Xmas or to even enjoy themselves - in the newspapers though shall not hug, kiss, play board games or even sing!

guess we won't be allowed to vacuum in case we move the virus to the next square metre.


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## pm133

Despite the fact that I don't do cards or presents and that I loathe organised religions for the untold damage they do to so many people's lives, I do really love the Christmas period. I like the cold, the dark, the frost, and coming into a warm house smelling of coffee and buns.
Then there's carols and the Christmas story which takes me back to childhood. I might dislike organised religion but there are some great stories.


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## mikeyB

We’ll be going to daughter’s place for our Christmas meal. Including kids that’s 6 people. I’ll make the Chocolate Christmas Log, as I have done for 35+ years, so I’m getting quite good at doing it. I eat much less of it these days, so it’ll stay over with the family. Haven’t seen our granddaughter for months - or most of her life. I doubt she will remember us, which is to us the biggest blow in these stupid lockdowns. Still, there’s been no babysitting requests  

Mind, we’ll have to take their cat back with us. They are flying off to (virtually zero Covid) Lanzarote on Boxing Day, flying back on New Years Day. That’s to the in-laws villa. Odd dates to fly, but either side of those dates the cost of flights tripled, and for once I wasn’t ready to cough up the difference. Nor did they want me too, it’s a all a rip off. The cat loves it here for some reason. I think the main one is a bit of peace and quiet without a 5 year old and 10 months old trying to pull her ears off and making lots of noise. I just have to remember to put all food back in the fridge


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## belugalad

mikeyB said:


> We’ll be going to daughter’s place for our Christmas meal. Including kids that’s 6 people. I’ll make the Chocolate Christmas Log, as I have done for 35+ years, so I’m getting quite good at doing it. I eat much less of it these days, so it’ll stay over with the family. Haven’t seen our granddaughter for months - or most of her life. I doubt she will remember us, which is to us the biggest blow in these stupid lockdowns. Still, there’s been no babysitting requests
> 
> Mind, we’ll have to take their cat back with us. They are flying off to (virtually zero Covid) Lanzarote on Boxing Day, flying back on New Years Day. That’s to the in-laws villa. Odd dates to fly, but either side of those dates the cost of flights tripled, and for once I wasn’t ready to cough up the difference. Nor did they want me too, it’s a all a rip off. The cat loves it here for some reason. I think the main one is a bit of peace and quiet without a 5 year old and 10 months old trying to pull her ears off and making lots of noise. I just have to remember to put all food back in the fridge


I love the sound of that,it's like the cats having a respite holiday from the kids,and you do need eyes in the back of your head when it comes to cats and food.Our glutton Milo steals food on a regular basis,he stole a chicken breast from the worktop last week after the carers let him in on their visit


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## Hepato-pancreato

Sure a journalist on the bbc called Christmas the " Giving season". Think its P.C not to offend certain religions,yet  offending Christians in the process. Anyway this virus dosent celebrate "Christmastide" . Life isn't a rehearsal, we get one go at it. Personaly i would like to see lockdown being strict like the first one. Sooner we control this virus the sooner we can get back to some sort of normality.


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## mikeydt1

it is becoming a pointless exercise as soon as the rules relax people are just going out flocking in masses, ignoring mask wearing along with social distancing.

going off comments in the newspapers seems most don't care, people think the virus is some kind of hoax to controlling the public, the list just seems to go on.  even with tiers and the last lockdown people were just ignoring the rules.


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## Northerner

People in my home town (Harrogate, North Yorks) appear to be being pretty careful. We've had 133 people die since the start and the vast majority - 120 - were in the first wave, so just 13 more since August. Even so, we were put in Tier 2 after lockdown up from Tier 1 before it.


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## Bloden

Ralph-YK said:


> As for Christmas, my mum is 87. It's not only my risk; her's too.


Any limitations to my life in the run up to Xmas are with my mum in mind too @Ralph-YK. Not only is she extremely important to me and my family, she’s also kept us all going mentally with her positive attitude.


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## grovesy

My observations over the last few weeks around here in Mid Essex that people are not being as careful or distancing as they were.
I only go out to large park or fields for walks, to a Chiropractor in a residential street but off a main road, and my local Pharmacy. 
The main road I drive on to go to the Chiropractor is as busy as it would normally be. The last twice I have been to the Chiropractor, in the last week, entering has been fine, though next visit I am going to return to waiting in the car till  which ever practioner comes out to get me, instead of waiting in the waiting room till a few minutes prior to appointment. On leaving to book next appointment and pay there has been a small queue, and difficult to distance and not all trying to maintain , despite markings on the floor.
My local Pharmacy is on a small shopping parade with small car park, there has often been a couple of people in the queue to enter. Last week the queue was over 6 people making access for people going to other shops and cars difficult.


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## Ralph-YK

My sister pulled the "if you don't see her and she dies" bull today! Ugh


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