# Tory health minister calls Brexit vote 'a terrible mistake'



## Northerner (Oct 24, 2016)

A government minister has added to Conservative divisions over Brexit by describing Britain’s vote to leave as “a terrible mistake” and urging Theresa May to fight hard to stay in the single market.

David Prior, the health minister in the House of Lords, also said that Britain must continue to be able to attract top medical, scientific and academic talent to bolster universities and especially the life sciences industry.

Speaking at the Royal College of Physicians’ annual dinner in London on Thursday evening, Lord Prior of Brampton told an audience of 170 senior doctors: “My personal view is that leaving Europe was a terrible mistake. But given that it was a mistake, we must do everything we can to ensure that we stay in the single market and that we do have access to the best people from around the world. I fully echo what you said.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-health-minister-brexit-vote-terrible-mistake


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## Redkite (Oct 24, 2016)

He's not wrong, it's going to be sheer disaster for this country .  I hope for the sake of the 48% of people who did NOT want to do this, that at least the UK can stay in the single market and avert economic ruin.


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## Northerner (Oct 24, 2016)

All these arguments that are coming out now ought to have been properly, and honestly, presented prior to the referendum so people could make a more informed choice. Neither side had a plan, with one side exploiting emotion and scapegoating minority groups, the other side concentrating on a ludicrously over the top doom scenario that bordered on the farcical and presented no positive arguments whatsoever. Whichever way you voted I suspect the true complexity of the situation is only now being made plain. And it seems it's now being decided in a 'game of poker' by a small cabal of right-wingers with an unelected, and unproven, leader.  I was quite alarmed watching Question Time last week at the number of people who were saying we should just 'get out now, invoke Article 50 and get out' as though we can simply turn our backs on Europe overnight without consequences


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## Redkite (Oct 24, 2016)

Northerner said:


> I was quite alarmed watching Question Time last week at the number of people who were saying we should just 'get out now, invoke Article 50 and get out' as though we can simply turn our backs on Europe overnight without consequences



It's scary how the brexit process is being hijacked by xenophobes who are so concerned with keeping out migrants that they aren't prepared to consider (shock horror) *compromising *between controls on immigration and economic common sense.


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## Owen (Oct 24, 2016)

Northerner said:


> All these arguments that are coming out now ought to have been properly, and honestly, presented prior to the referendum so people could make a more informed choice. Neither side had a plan, with one side exploiting emotion and scapegoating minority groups, the other side concentrating on a ludicrously over the top doom scenario that bordered on the farcical and presented no positive arguments whatsoever. Whichever way you voted I suspect the true complexity of the situation is only now being made plain. And it seems it's now being decided in a 'game of poker' by a small cabal of right-wingers with an unelected, and unproven, leader.  I was quite alarmed watching Question Time last week at the number of people who were saying we should just 'get out now, invoke Article 50 and get out' as though we can simply turn our backs on Europe overnight without consequences


We do seem to getting into a habit of having unelected prime ministers. To be honest I am yet to see anyone that has the wider population rather than their close circle of benefactors to prioritise.


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## mikeyB (Oct 24, 2016)

Every single constituency in Scotland voted to remain. Course, whether Scotland remains in the U.K. is a different question, but any fool could have predicted that it would have been asked. The people of Scotland have been lied to so many times, and particularly before the last referendum. "Vote remain or you'll never get into the EU". Boris Johnson was one of the people saying that.

So Cameron, who allowed this Brexit referendum, could be the man who lost Scotland, and caused a federal union for Ireland. Quite a heritage. 

Can England and Wales go it alone? Don't think so.


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## Diabeticliberty (Oct 24, 2016)

You are all really missing the point. We can take our country back (about 150 years back actually) We can have control of our borders (well actually if we even want to sell books of matches in Europe then we can't actually) We can spend 350 million pounds per week on the NHS (NAHHHHHHHHHHHHH I don't think so it was a whopper of a lie) Best of all we can have Nissan move their factory out of the North East yes we can do that they are already considering it. We can have all the international banks move their head offices out of Britain yes we can do that as they are already drawing up plans. God bless little England and all who sink in her


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## Owen (Oct 24, 2016)

mikeyB said:


> Every single constituency in Scotland voted to remain. Course, whether Scotland remains in the U.K. is a different question, but any fool could have predicted that it would have been asked. The people of Scotland have been lied to so many times, and particularly before the last referendum. "Vote remain or you'll never get into the EU". Boris Johnson was one of the people saying that.
> 
> So Cameron, who allowed this Brexit referendum, could be the man who lost Scotland, and caused a federal union for Ireland. Quite a heritage.
> 
> Can England and Wales go it alone? Don't think so.


I'll just apply for dual nationality


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## HOBIE (Oct 24, 2016)

I work in the building industry. BS numbers on everything a few years ago. The french & germens must have been jealous cause made in eu has taken over !   If you bought a Girder or Electrical bits you knew they were tested & fit for purpose ?    BRITISH STANDARDS Kite Mark


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## mikeyB (Oct 24, 2016)

HOBIE said:


> I work in the building industry. BS numbers on everything a few years ago. The french & germens must have been jealous cause made in eu has taken over !   If you bought a Girder or Electrical bits you knew they were tested & fit for purpose ?    BRITISH STANDARDS Kite Mark


So you think when we leave you'll be able to buy girders, wire and electrical stuff from now defunct British industries which will be magically revived? In your dreams.


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## HOBIE (Oct 24, 2016)

Hi Mike. Did you know the wiring changes in this country ???  RED was always danger keep your mits off !   Did you know its now Brown GREY & White ?    Good old BRITISH STANDARDS.  One in four blokes are colour blind (I am not) When working in a loft with dim light I know there are going to be problems !


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## HOBIE (Oct 24, 2016)

Did you know Mikey ?


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## mikeyB (Oct 24, 2016)

HOBIE said:


> Hi Mike. Did you know the wiring changes in this country ???  RED was always danger keep your mits off !   Did you know its now Brown GREY & White ?    Good old BRITISH STANDARDS.  One in four blokes are colour blind (I am not) When working in a loft with dim light I know there are going to be problems !


That's one in 12 men who are colour blind.


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## HOBIE (Oct 24, 2016)

Can you imagine how many electricians who are going to be electrocuted ?   That's EU standards


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## Andy HB (Oct 24, 2016)

Owen said:


> We do seem to getting into a habit of having unelected prime ministers. To be honest I am yet to see anyone that has the wider population rather than their close circle of benefactors to prioritise.



Our prime minister was elected! Why do you think that she is in parliament? (Don't worry, I know what you really meant) 

Also, by the way, around 50% of our prime ministers entered office without there being a general election. This is nothing new, it has always occurred. It is a result of how our political system works. We do not have a presidential system (no matter what Tony Blair thought!). We elect members of parliament. The leader of the largest party becomes prime minister.

I don't know where this 'unelected prime ministers' stuff came from originally, but it seems to me that it comes out of a general disaffection with politics as a whole. Which is a different issue.

Andy


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## AlisonM (Oct 24, 2016)

Cameron held the referendum because he was stupid enough to put it in a manifesto and therefore *had *to do it at some point. No-one at Westmonster actually believed a majority of any kind would vote to leave the EU. They totally misread the English mood and now we're stuck with the results. That's why the campaigns on both sides were so shambolic, nobody took it seriously, they thought it wouldn't matter what was said.

May is now getting served a nasty dose of reality with her tea as she discovers she can't just disregard the wishes of the other three nations in this process. If she does she faces the breakup of the UK, and no Prime Minister wants that on her CV.


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## Northerner (Oct 24, 2016)

Not only did Cameron misread the English mood, but he sowed the seeds of his own defeat by trying to out-UKIP UKIP and creating the conditions for huge areas of dissent. Why would a threat of economic gloom persuade people who felt they had nothing to lose, and did he expect people to ignore his scapegoating of migrants at the same time as believing his demonisation?

It seems like the political systems are producing people who are either too-clever-by-half-for-their-own-good, or just plain-simple-useless 

Oh, and no way on earth did Theresa May support Remain, she hedged her bets entirely so she could step in whatever the outcome.


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## mikeyB (Oct 24, 2016)

Andy, the "unelected prime minister" tag is appropriate, since at the Tory conference she gave a speech outlining policies, none of which were in the Tory manifesto, so had not been tested by popular vote. I'm not grinding any particular axe here, it's just a statement of fact.


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## HOBIE (Oct 24, 2016)

Eu standards are NOT as good !  House wiring in france is shocking. 1 cable to every socket in the house,so 25 skts 25 cables at fuseboard just for skts. We have Two for a ring main. You might not know but that's a big hole in your floorboards just to get the cables under floor never mind the cost & waste.


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## Owen (Oct 24, 2016)

Andy HB said:


> Our prime minister was elected! Why do you think that she is in parliament? (Don't worry, I know what you really meant)
> 
> Also, by the way, around 50% of our prime ministers entered office without there being a general election. This is nothing new, it has always occurred. It is a result of how our political system works. We do not have a presidential system (no matter what Tony Blair thought!). We elect members of parliament. The leader of the largest party becomes prime minister.
> 
> ...


Yes you are correct in that she was elected as a minister, but she had no vote to become prime minister, the others either fell over their own feet or were not really viable.


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## mikeyB (Oct 24, 2016)

Ermm - Hobie, you appear to be having an argument by yourself. I don't doubt French wiring is worse than British. Always has been, always will be.
, EU or not.


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## Owen (Oct 24, 2016)

mikeyB said:


> Ermm - Hobie, you appear to be having an argument by yourself. I don't doubt French wiring is worse than British. Always has been, always will be.
> , EU or not.


Better than Spanish though?


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## HOBIE (Oct 24, 2016)

mikeyB said:


> Ermm - Hobie, you appear to be having an argument by yourself. I don't doubt French wiring is worse than British. Always has been, always will be.
> , EU or not.


I am talking about BRITISH STANDARD     BS no  etc    Kite Mark stamped on taps spoons pans etc etc etc


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## Andy HB (Oct 24, 2016)

mikeyB said:


> Andy, the "unelected prime minister" tag is appropriate, since at the Tory conference she gave a speech outlining policies, none of which were in the Tory manifesto, so had not been tested by popular vote. I'm not grinding any particular axe here, it's just a statement of fact.



That's a different issue. She's the PM and doesn't need any kind of justification beyond that.

Your point is that she is pushing policies which weren't in the Tory manifesto (since when has that been a new development! All parties have been doing THAT for years!). And on that issue, I agree with you to some extent. However, it is not unreasonable to alter policies to take into account new realities. It would a poor government indeed which was not flexible and doggedly stuck to their manifesto ignoring what was really going on. But, of course, all parties then abuse that flexibility.

Andy


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## mikeyB (Oct 24, 2016)

Then that would make the last 5 years a poor government as they doggedly pursued austerity which completely ignored what was really going on.


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## Andy HB (Oct 24, 2016)

Owen said:


> Yes you are correct in that she was elected as a minister, but she had no vote to become prime minister, the others either fell over their own feet or were not really viable.


In which case a vote was unnecessary and she became Tory leader. I don't see a problem with that. Better that than a media frenzy over yet another awful leadership contest.


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## Diabeticliberty (Oct 24, 2016)

mikeyB said:


> Then that would make the last 5 years a poor government as they doggedly pursued austerity which completely ignored what was really going on.




You appear to have forgotten that we were all in it together


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## mikeyB (Oct 24, 2016)

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, DL.


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## Andy HB (Oct 24, 2016)

mikeyB said:


> Then that would make the last 5 years a poor government as they doggedly pursued austerity which completely ignored what was really going on.



Maybe, maybe not. One could argue that point until the cows come home. There are two sides to that debate and I doubt either side will ever come to an agreement. So, I'm not going to argue it here.


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## mikeyB (Oct 24, 2016)

Good plan Andy. It's pointless arguing about it - or even apportioning blame. Its history.


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## HOBIE (Oct 24, 2016)

mikeyB said:


> Then that would make the last 5 years a poor government as they doggedly pursued austerity which completely ignored what was really going on.


Are you talking about Toney Blarr Blarr ? Got in a war & Banking crisis. & the one they have got now wont sing the National Anthem


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## mikeyB (Oct 24, 2016)

I won't sing the National anthem either. I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in preserving the life of someone who was accidentally born into a family of Germans into a  life of unearned luxury at public expense. And this same person is, for some reason, head of what is called the Church of England, as was her great grandfather, who shagged his way across Northern Europe before becoming king.

These are of course, just my reasoned opinions. Feel free to disagree.


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## Andy HB (Oct 25, 2016)

I wish to confound your politics and frustrate your knavish tricks. 

How dare you not sing the anthem. 

Andy (I try not to either, but only because I can't sing) HB


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## Northerner (Oct 25, 2016)

Corbyn may not have sung the anthem, but he was the only leader who went out to chat and share his sandwiches with the old ex-servicemen after the service instead of going along to the big back-slapping jolly laid on for the 'country's elite'. Priorities, and true respect, because it was genuinely felt and oblivious to the photo-opportunity...


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## Owen (Oct 25, 2016)

Northerner said:


> Corbyn may not have sung the anthem, but he was the only leader who went out to chat and share his sandwiches with the old ex-servicemen after the service instead of going along to the big back-slapping jolly laid on for the 'country's elite'. Priorities, and true respect, because it was genuinely felt and oblivious to the photo-opportunity...


Not being pro any politics, I am definitely warming to Corbyn. Perhaps its his resilience under duress?


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## Northerner (Oct 25, 2016)

Owen said:


> Not being pro any politics, I am definitely warming to Corbyn. Perhaps its his resilience under duress?


I have heard the same from others who were very opposed to him at first - for someone who is 'unelectable' he did a pretty good job of getting elected for the second time in a year  Whatever you think of Corbyn he sticks by his word, and personally I am much less impressed by those who sought to unseat him at such a critical time for the country, when the government should have been under the tightest scrutiny. They obviously thought he would just roll over as they had no real plan, and crucially no viable alternative candidate - Owen Smith and Angela Eagle were simply embarrassing. Frankly, if Corbyn were such a weak opponent there would not be such vehement vilification of him from all sides.


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## Owen (Oct 25, 2016)

Northerner said:


> I have heard the same from others who were very opposed to him at first - for someone who is 'unelectable' he did a pretty good job of getting elected for the second time in a year  Whatever you think of Corbyn he sticks by his word, and personally I am much less impressed by those who sought to unseat him at such a critical time for the country, when the government should have been under the tightest scrutiny. They obviously thought he would just roll over as they had no real plan, and crucially no viable alternative candidate - Owen Smith and Angela Eagle were simply embarrassing. Frankly, if Corbyn were such a weak opponent there would not be such vehement vilification of him from all sides.


I have a strange leaning towards Labour, I even have anti nuclear feelings, which being a trained observer to guide missiles, is a massive epiphany.
Regarding the EU, does it mean that there is a risk of repatriating the Royal Family?


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## Andy HB (Oct 25, 2016)

Owen said:


> Not being pro any politics, I am definitely warming to Corbyn. Perhaps its his resilience under duress?



plus he is more true labour than almost all of the PLP put together!

Doesn't mean that I will ever vote labour, but I appreciate that he provides a different view.


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## mikeyB (Oct 25, 2016)

I don't think I'll vote Labour ever again. SNP for me


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## macabee (Oct 25, 2016)

Redkite said:


> He's not wrong, it's going to be sheer disaster for this country .  I hope for the sake of the 48% of people who did NOT want to do this, that at least the UK can stay in the single market and avert economic ruin.



We do not need to be 'in' the single market to trade with the EU. In 2015 the United States conducted $2.7 Billion* worth of trade in goods alone, without the US paying for the 'privilege' of being in the single market or having free movement of people, they trade according to WTO rules.

EU states sell more to the UK than we sell to them, they will not cut their own throats by imposing punitive tarifs [they would not be able to, as that would contravene WTO rules] 

Politicians do not trade, businesses do.

17,410,742 people voted to leave.

Let's get over it and move on

*United States Census Bureau


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## mikeyB (Oct 25, 2016)

macabee said:


> We do not need to be 'in' the single market to trade with the EU. In 2015 the United States conducted $2.7 Billion* worth of trade in goods alone, without the US paying for the 'privilege' of being in the single market or having free movement of people, they trade according to WTO rules.
> 
> EU states sell more to the UK than we sell to them, they will not cut their own throats by imposing punitive tarifs [they would not be able to, as that would contravene WTO rules]
> 
> ...


That's a bit too simplistic. The votes to leave disguise the fact that most were English. The people of Scotland and Northern Ireland voted overwhelmingly to stay. Get over it?

I don't think so.


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## Diabeticliberty (Oct 25, 2016)

macabee said:


> We do not need to be 'in' the single market to trade with the EU. In 2015 the United States conducted $2.7 Billion* worth of trade in goods alone, without the US paying for the 'privilege' of being in the single market or having free movement of people, they trade according to WTO rules.
> 
> EU states sell more to the UK than we sell to them, they will not cut their own throats by imposing punitive tarifs [they would not be able to, as that would contravene WTO rules]
> 
> ...




This reply to which you are perfectly entitled to post and for my own part I am perfectly entitled to reply to is extremely naive. Some major businesses are already lacing up their running shoes in anticipation of the triggering of Article 50. This will have an immediate detrimental effect on British Business. The Europeans have already started making noises regarding not trading with us unless we are in the single market which is directly tied up to the free movement of Johhny Foreigner coming over here with his weird food, stealing our jobs and our women. I think all Brexiteers need to get over that one. The EU cannot afford to give us a 'sweetheart deal' after we hold our breath until we turn blue and slam the door behind us. They will need to make a very strong example in case other countries attempt to indulge in the same folly as us. That is also something we need to get over. When my company has no work and I have to start laying off skilled people whom I like and respect because companies to whom I am 'cap in hand' for work that will be something that I have to get over. The problem is I don't know how to.



On a separate issue I can never vote for Corbyn. His ideology is wrong, his management style is wrong, his political affiliations are wrong, his business sense is wrong, his inability to bring together his own politicians is wrong. If he cannot unite his party he can never ever unite my country. Sadly for all of you Corbyn flag wavers I am right


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## HOBIE (Oct 25, 2016)

I can see other countries coming out


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## Diabeticliberty (Oct 25, 2016)

HOBIE said:


> I can see other countries coming out




Yes Hobieman so can I. Personally I feel this may make Europe less stable with Putin strutting around like some predatory tomcat looking to exploit some of the weaknesses. My next point will not meet a lot of support from many if any one here but this for me is why more than  ever we need a string independent nuclear deterrent and even  more reason why I can never personally vote for Corbyn and his 'right on' comrades


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## mikeyB (Oct 25, 2016)

You can have your nuclear deterrent DL, nae bother, but could you please park your submarines and weapons somewhere like Portsmouth, instead of in Scotland?


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## Owen (Oct 25, 2016)

mikeyB said:


> You can have your nuclear deterrent DL, nae bother, but could you please park your submarines and weapons somewhere like Portsmouth, instead of in Scotland?


I heard they're moving them offshore to small place called Mull


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## Diabeticliberty (Oct 25, 2016)

mikeyB said:


> You can have your nuclear deterrent DL, nae bother, but could you please park your submarines and weapons somewhere like Portsmouth, instead of in Scotland?




I wouldn't have a problem with that for one second. I think however the majority of people currently living local to the bases who depend on them for a living might be directly at odds with my decision to move them to England


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## Owen (Oct 25, 2016)

Diabeticliberty said:


> I wouldn't have a problem with that for one second. I think however the majority of people currently living local to the bases who depend on them for a living might be directly at odds with my decision to move them to England


You could move them to Wigan Pier


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## Diabeticliberty (Oct 25, 2016)

Your SNP could of course offer financial support from the billions of pounds it will raise from taxation based on the price of the barrel of o...........whoops olives


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## Diabeticliberty (Oct 25, 2016)

Owen said:


> You could move them to Wigan Pier




Yeah let's get the Commies fully luvved up. They won't wanna fight anybody then


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## mikeyB (Oct 25, 2016)

Only a small percentage of the workers are local at Faslane. Once the subs and waopons have moved, the rest can get back to building ships, an industry currently in revival


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## mikeyB (Oct 25, 2016)

DL, I'm not going to argue with somebody who lives in a country which is busy sending itself down the plug, no car industry, no bank headquarters, no industry, so let's not have any snotty comments about the price of oil.


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## Diabeticliberty (Oct 25, 2016)

Victor Kildare as much as I scratch my head trying to come up with a reply to this I keep coming up with the same answer. You have just blown my argument right out of the water. Using non nuclear ordnance of course


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## Andy HB (Oct 25, 2016)

My simplistic and naive take on this (getting the barbs in early!  ) is that after Brexit, we'll have to start doing things differently if we're going to survive. But it will be a good thing to do so. Do we all think that the UK is so well off in the EU right now? Do we really want to continue relying on banks and a fake service economy? Really?

Andy


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## Owen (Oct 25, 2016)

Andy HB said:


> My simplistic and naive take on this (getting the barbs in early!  ) is that after Brexit, we'll have to start doing things differently if we're going to survive. But it will be a good thing to do so. Do we all think that the UK is so well off in the EU right now? Do we really want to continue relying on banks and a fake service economy? Really?
> 
> Andy


One potential advantage would be to offer tax advantages that cannot be penalised by Brussels. The Swiss seem to cope quite well as a nation?


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## mikeyB (Oct 25, 2016)

One tax that could be changed is VAT. EU regulations mean that cannot fall below 15% currently. This could be set at any level, or even abandoned altogether. Just imagine what that would do for the retail industries, petrol prices, plumbers prices.


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## Diabeticliberty (Oct 25, 2016)

mikeyB said:


> One tax that could be changed is VAT. EU regulations mean that cannot fall below 15% currently. This could be set at any level, or even abandoned altogether. Just imagine what that would do for the retail industries, petrol prices, plumbers prices.




Victor the UK Government currently earns over 100 billion pounds per year from VAT. I really don't see them letting go of it any time in the next 5000 years


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