# Carb count?



## Francine (Nov 16, 2015)

How many carbs a day is low carb? and how many on a product per 100g is low carb? I understand we are all different and that what spikes my blood sugar doesn't necessarily do it to someone else, I just want some guidelines to work towards until I get the hang of things and work out what I can and can't tolerate. Thanks


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## Bloden (Nov 17, 2015)

I'm no expert in low carbing, so I don't have the answer to your first question.

As for the second question: my DSN says: if the packaging carb count is less than 10g per 100g, it's (more than likely, everyone's different as you say) a 'free food'. Having said that, I carb count yogurt (approx 5g per 100g), but I don't carb count ketchup (7g per 100g)...it's a case of working out what affects your BG and what doesn't - as you say. Good luck!


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## trophywench (Nov 17, 2015)

Well - it depends on how much of something you were going to ingest doesn't it?

A spoonful of ketchup isn't as many carbs as a potful of yoghurt - so even were the ketchup 'high carb' according to the label, the amount you'd have stil;l wouldn't be as much as a potful of even 'low carb' yog, now would it?  And so you might happily have a little splodge of it on your carb-free bacon and egg and say the whole meal's been carb-free - personally I would with that and have no insulin for it - but if I made it into a sandwich I'd count the bread obviously and might add a gram or 2 of carb, for the sauce.

A 'normal carb' day for me is up to about 100g CHO*, so anything less than 100g is 'lower'.  I dunno where I'd actually pitch my 'low carb' bar though.  Possibly lower than 70-ish grams.

*  That's based on my diet as a young, slim adult prior to diagnosis - and I've always stuck to it.  When I don't (like now, 43 years later, packed in the weed again recently so biccies win) I put on weight and can't wear most of my wardrobe - QED !


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## DeusXM (Nov 17, 2015)

As trophywench says, it's all about perspective.

For a start, the carb count per 100g is largely irrelevant other than for helping you to determine your total carb intake. The idea that everything with less than 10g of carbs per 100g is 'low carb' is a slightly silly one from your DSN. For instance, Coca-Cola has 10.6g of carbs per 100ml - and ml is equivalent to grams for water, so that means a can of Coke is technically on the cusp of being a low-carb item. Something to think about next time you treat a hypo with a regular soft drink!

Now we've dealt with the amount of carbs per 100g as being not particularly relevant, let's look at TOTAL dietary intake. The NHS recommends around 250-300g of carbs a day, so technically, anything under 250 is 'low carb'. 

However, the main goal of low-carbing in relation to diabetes is to change your body metabolism from fueling itself on carbs to fueling itself from fat. There's no hard, fast number where this process kicks in. Some sources say 50g. Others say 40g. Bernstein's plan recommends less than 24g of carbs a day, specifically divided into a breakfast and lunch of 6g each, plus an evening meal of 12g. From my personal experience, I start running into difficulty with blood sugar control at more than about 100g, so I can't imagine how anyone with diabetes could eat 300g a day and stay healthy, as that would mean gorging on bread all day.

Interestingly, there's some debate about whether this is such a thing as a 'free food' for T1s. Firstly, protein actually converts to glucose but in a slower manner than starch, so if you eat a large steak, you might think you've not eaten any carbs at all, but you will probably still need to bolus a small amount otherwise your blood sugar will rise about three hours later. There's also a theory that your body also releases glucose in response to food being in your gut. The theory goes that when your small intestine is stretched by a calorific ite, (ie. anything but water), your body sends two signals - one to release insulin in anticipation of digestion, and another to release glucose from your liver in case the amount of insulin released is too much for whatever's in your intestines. Obviously the insulin release signal doesn't do anything in a T1, whereas the glucose release signal does - the end result is that any food in your gut will cause your blood sugar to increase slightly, regardless of its carb content.


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## everydayupsanddowns (Nov 17, 2015)

The whole low carb/moderate carb debate can be very confusing. As Deus says: 


DeusXM said:


> However, the main goal of low-carbing in relation to diabetes is to change your body metabolism from fueling itself on carbs to fueling itself from fat. There's no hard, fast number where this process kicks in. Some sources say 50g. Others say 40g. Bernstein's plan recommends less than 24g of carbs a day, specifically divided into a breakfast and lunch of 6g each, plus an evening meal of 12g.



That is certainly one approach, but it may not be the primary goal for others.



DeusXM said:


> From my personal experience, I start running into difficulty with blood sugar control at more than about 100g, so I can't imagine how anyone with diabetes could eat 300g a day and stay healthy, as that would mean gorging on bread all day.



But I think that might be more practical and adaptable for others (including me). The ida of identifying what level of carb intake gives you BG numbers you want to see (most of the time!). I guess I'm not really interested in definitions of high carb or low carb, with or without ketosis - what I'm primarily after is: _a low BG spike, satisfying, flexible, doable-long-term, nutritious, weight-maintaining diet that suits Mike_


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## trophywench (Nov 17, 2015)

Are we sure, Deus, that the shot of insulin the pancreas releases when food is in the gut, is not merely to the cells in the gut, so they can do some work, hence why the liver also releases glucose (to fuel the gut cells to do the work)  ?   IYSWIM   LOL


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## DeusXM (Nov 17, 2015)

> I guess I'm not really interested in definitions of high carb or low carb, with or without ketosis - what I'm primarily after is: _a low BG spike, satisfying, flexible, doable-long-term, nutritious, weight-maintaining diet that suits Mike_



Indeed. It's a semantic definition. 'Low-carb' as some sort of totem implies some kind of special process. I eat 'right-carb' ie. what works best for me, which may or may not overlap with formalised definitions of low-carb.



> Deus, that the shot of insulin the pancreas releases when food is in the gut, is not merely to the cells in the gut, so they can do some work, hence why the liver also releases glucose (to fuel the gut cells to do the work) ?



I'm not sure of the exact mechanics and process, but the below link provides a theoretical explanation. Incidentally, this appears to be a (legal) freely viewable complete copy of Dr. Bernstein's book. I'm not a Bernsteiner myself and have some major issues with parts of his approach but the whole book is well worth a read.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...v=onepage&q=bernstein head of lettuce&f=false


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## Abi (Nov 17, 2015)

> Are we sure, Deus, that the shot of insulin the pancreas releases when food is in the gut, is not merely to the cells in the gut, so they can do some work, hence why the liver also releases glucose (to fuel the gut cells to do the work) ? IYSWIM LOL



Try googling the " incretin effect"
basically in a non diabetic individual blood glucose reponse is greater when intravenous glucose is given compared with an equivalent oral glucose load, due to above effect.
2 classes of medication prescribed primarily for those with type 2- the"gliptins" and GLP-1 receptor agonists came about as a result of this phenomenon


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## Abi (Nov 17, 2015)

Actually above effect inhibits glucagen response in non diabetic subjects following ingestion of food-so I suppose either incretin effect is defective in people with diabetes alonside insufficient or inadequate insulin production/ sensitivity- or there is some other reason behind Bernstein's " Chinese Restuarant" effect


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## trophywench (Nov 17, 2015)

Thank you Abi.  I still don't really understand it.

So I'll just try and sit quietly and listen LOL


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## Bloden (Nov 18, 2015)

trophywench said:


> Well - it depends on how much of something you were going to ingest doesn't it?
> 
> A spoonful of ketchup isn't as many carbs as a potful of yoghurt - so even were the ketchup 'high carb' according to the label, the amount you'd have stil;l wouldn't be as much as a potful of even 'low carb' yog, now would it?  And so you might happily have a little splodge of it on your carb-free bacon and egg and say the whole meal's been carb-free - personally I would with that and have no insulin for it - but if I made it into a sandwich I'd count the bread obviously and might add a gram or 2 of carb, for the sauce.
> 
> ...



I'm a ketchup fiend, Trophywench......love tomatoes in any form!


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## trophywench (Nov 18, 2015)

I don't class ketchup in the same category as a tomato  Bloden!  LOL   See with bacon, give me the option of a grilled (or preferably - fried!) fresh tomato with it - and you can stick your manufactured crap where the sun don't shine!  LOL


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## DeusXM (Nov 18, 2015)

Frankly you're all animals. Everyone knows the only civilised things to put in a bacon sandwich are more bacon, sausage, egg, cheese or BROWN sauce.


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## pottersusan (Nov 18, 2015)

Getting back on the subject ... Some carbs need less insulin than others. ( says she who is trying to be wheat free, lactose free...) .But I'm with TW - fresh tomato any day!


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## Bloden (Nov 19, 2015)

trophywench said:


> I don't class ketchup in the same category as a tomato  Bloden!  LOL   See with bacon, give me the option of a grilled (or preferably - fried!) fresh tomato with it - and you can stick your manufactured crap where the sun don't shine!  LOL



I KNEW someone would say that! It says 'tomatoes' on the ingredients list, so ffflllllllurrr (I'm blowing a raspberry) to the lot of you...


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## Bloden (Nov 19, 2015)

DeusXM said:


> Frankly you're all animals. Everyone knows the only civilised things to put in a bacon sandwich are more bacon, sausage, egg, cheese or BROWN sauce.



You trying to make yourself ill?!! I certainly feel sick thinking about all that meat...it just goes to show, Francine, that we're all different. I eat approx 150g of carb every day across 3 meals (I can't live without fruit, so that ups my carb total) and I feel happy with that amount. Breakfast has to be low-GI to avoid a big spike in my BG, and lunch and dinner med-GI to avoid a dip in my BG. That's just what I've learned through trial and error (and keeping a food diary).

Why not stick to a very similar diet for a while - similar carbs, in similar amounts - and keep a food diary and test, test, test? I call it a Diabetes Science Experiment (see Ginger Vieira). Good luck!


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## robert@fm (Nov 19, 2015)

DeusXM said:


> Frankly you're all animals. Everyone knows the only civilised things to put in a bacon sandwich are more bacon, sausage, egg, cheese or BROWN sauce.



Heinz used to do a wonderful _pineapple_ ketchup that was great on bacon sarnies. To this day I wonder why on earth they discontinued it.


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## trophywench (Nov 19, 2015)

@robert@fm  - I remember it!  I absolutely loved it!   I reckon I was at junior school Robert - so mid-late 1950's then!  I've always always adored pineapple.

Doubt there's many here that remember the 1950s at all .....


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## grovesy (Nov 19, 2015)

Never heard of Pineapple Ketchup. I do remember some of the fifties.


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## pottersusan (Nov 19, 2015)

grovesy said:


> Never heard of Pineapple Ketchup. I do remember some of the fifties.



I'm the same. Why not make your own... Several recipes on Google, not surprisingly.



trophywench said:


> Doubt there's many here that remember the 1950s at all .....


Didn't you know... Us 'baby boomers' rule the world


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## trophywench (Nov 20, 2015)

I think they probably actually stopped making it cos it wasn't popular enough TBH.  Mom bought the first bottle to try for a change, but any subsequent purchase would have been just as a treat for me - since no-one else in our house liked it!  I probably said No don't bother then after that as I would have been old enough to know money was tight - I expect.

I liked it on Sweetcure bacon.  Dribble!


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## AN9 (Nov 28, 2015)

I try and eat food stuff that has higher protein than carbs, when I Googled it the Atkins diet kept coming up. I like my meat but....


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