# do you believe..........



## Minster (Nov 17, 2009)

Hi 

i know this is going to be a bit of a difficult one, but as i do believe in god, i just wanted to ask.......................................

what is it you believe in???

be it god or anything else. im just one of the kinds of guys who is interested to know what you believe in if anything at all 

p.s please dont think i am trying to get a religious thing going here as i am not i just like to know what people believe as i found it fascinating even before i was a trainee vicar


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## AlisonM (Nov 17, 2009)

Minster said:


> Hi
> 
> i know this is going to be a bit of a difficult one, but as i do believe in god, i just wanted to ask.......................................
> 
> ...



I believe in science, I believe in hard evidence. I believe there's lot of stuff out there we don't understand... Yet. Show me definitive proof that god exists and I'll believe. My middle name should be Thomas.


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## bev (Nov 17, 2009)

I have no idea who/what I believe in. But just lately, I have been visiting churches a lot! In fact, today I went to 2 churches as i was feeling a little down and lit a candle. A couple of weeks ago we went to Wells Cathedral and I found it a very calming and warm experience. I have no idea where all this has come from as I havent been particularly drawn to anything spiritual in the past - I think its just with Alexs' diagnosis - it has had such a huge affect on us all....and for whatever reason I find I get a 'nice' feeling when I am in a church - or even in a graveyard! Most people would run a mile - but I find graveyards a 'comforting' place. It does sadden me though when i read the graves of youngsters and i wonder if they were diabetic - as most seem to be 100 years ago or so - before insulin etc...we live near lots of little villages and lots of the graveyards date back to the 1500's - all very interesting - but a bit depressing too.Bev


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## Northerner (Nov 17, 2009)

AlisonM said:


> I believe in science, I believe in hard evidence. I believe there's lot of stuff out there we don't understand... Yet. Show me definitive proof that god exists and I'll believe. My middle name should be Thomas.



Yes, pretty much the same as me. I see religion as philosophy rather than believing in some omnipotent conscious entity. A couple of years ago I read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and God is not Great by Christopher Hitchens - I found the Hitchens book to be more accessible, and his arguments are more against the manipulation of societies by religion. I have no problem with people who do believe though as long as it makes them better people and kinder to their fellow men. Those who discriminate, or even kill in the name of religion have rather missed the concept, in my opinion!


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## Steff (Nov 17, 2009)

I believe my relatives that have passed away look down on, judging what i do and where im going in life.


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## Minster (Nov 17, 2009)

bev said:


> I have no idea who/what I believe in. But just lately, I have been visiting churches a lot! In fact, today I went to 2 churches as i was feeling a little down and lit a candle. A couple of weeks ago we went to Wells Cathedral and I found it a very calming and warm experience. I have no idea where all this has come from as I havent been particularly drawn to anything spiritual in the past - I think its just with Alexs' diagnosis - it has had such a huge affect on us all....and for whatever reason I find I get a 'nice' feeling when I am in a church - or even in a graveyard! Most people would run a mile - but I find graveyards a 'comforting' place. It does sadden me though when i read the graves of youngsters and i wonder if they were diabetic - as most seem to be 100 years ago or so - before insulin etc...we live near lots of little villages and lots of the graveyards date back to the 1500's - all very interesting - but a bit depressing too.Bev



i find your thoughts interesting bev  i too love to be in the graveyard and i dont find it one bit depressing at all. i think the maybe the reason your finding solace in these places might be due to the fact you need to understand why alex has been struck with diabetes?? maybe your looking to god for some answers?? i know when i had my accident i decided to ask why me. i never got an answer, but tghen again i never thought i would. i found my solace in the fact that when i asked i found the answer in me. it had been there all along. i just needed some guidance to find it. i started to read the bible again and found a lot of things in there that i never would have noticed if i hadnt been intersted in it that time around.

anyway i just thought id reply to you bev


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## Minster (Nov 17, 2009)

AlisonM said:


> I believe in science, I believe in hard evidence. I believe there's lot of stuff out there we don't understand... Yet. Show me definitive proof that god exists and I'll believe. My middle name should be Thomas.





Northerner said:


> Yes, pretty much the same as me. I see religion as philosophy rather than believing in some omnipotent conscious entity. A couple of years ago I read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and God is not Great by Christopher Hitchens - I found the Hitchens book to be more accessible, and his arguments are more against the manipulation of societies by religion. I have no problem with people who do believe though as long as it makes them better people and kinder to their fellow men. Those who discriminate, or even kill in the name of religion have rather missed the concept, in my opinion!



lol well i think you both have very good reasons there for not believing in the lord. i think science is a very good thing to believe in and the church is very active in science. there are many things the church is interested in.

northerner i also think people who use religion for nasty things like war are missing the point as we should be using our faith to help the world heal the rifts caused for so many years by religious hatered.


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## Steff (Nov 17, 2009)

AHEM


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## Minster (Nov 17, 2009)

steff09 said:


> AHEM



lol sorry steff. i see you have a very very divine feeling in the afterlife


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## Steff (Nov 17, 2009)

Minster said:


> lol sorry steff. i see you have a very very divine feeling in the afterlife



good man haha


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## bev (Nov 17, 2009)

Thanks Minster,
I have sent you a pm.Bev


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## Freddie99 (Nov 17, 2009)

Hello all,

Time for my thoughts (due to inflation now ?5 for them) and here they are:

I'm more an agnostic than anything else. My views are that I might or might not be judged on how I've lived. There is something, however I just can't put a name to it or pin point it at all. I would say I've gone off church due to the fact that it's been rammed down my throat at the various schools I've attended and I just came to the point when I'd had enough and that I'd heard the school vicars jokes for the fifth year running in exactly the same sermons.
There's also another dimension to whatever faith I have. I like the cold, hard world of scientific fact aswell.

Tom


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## am64 (Nov 17, 2009)

which edition of the bible does your church use minster ?


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## Minster (Nov 17, 2009)

bev said:


> Thanks Minster,
> I have sent you a pm.Bev



hi bev i have replied to your pm 



Tom Hreben said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Time for my thoughts (due to inflation now ?5 for them) and here they are:
> 
> ...



hi tom, i believe that a lot of schools are trying now not to ram it down the throats of youngsters as it leads to them no longer wanting to join in after a number of years. my kids go to a CofE school even though they are not religious and they love the school. i understand what its like to have it thrust upon you as my folks were very religious but lucky for me chilled out a lot after a good few years lol.

as for science i know the church is very much into science and follow a lot of the big discoveries going on.

take care

minster



am64 said:


> which edition of the bible does your church use minster ?



hi am64, we follow the authorized version of the bible. i hope that answerrs your question 

minster


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## Tezzz (Nov 17, 2009)

Minster said:


> i know this is going to be a bit of a difficult one, but as i do believe in god, i just wanted to ask.......................................
> 
> what is it you believe in???



I believe in god. And I do my best to go to church when I can.


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## Minster (Nov 17, 2009)

brightontez said:


> I believe in god. And I do my best to go to church when I can.



hi brighton tez  i am lucky to be able to go to church as often as i like really, but as i say to a lot of the parishioners who cant get to church to often the the lord is everywhere and hears your call anywhere you are


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## SilentAssassin1642 (Nov 17, 2009)

Funnily enough, we had a conversation about this earlier, though it went into quantum physics and all that stuff.

I do not believe in a God, or Gods although I find the idea of religion fascinating from an archaeological perpective. You realise that the Romans stole the idea of the cross in the first place from the egyptian ankh symbol? And the ancient chi-ro symbol was also lifted by the romans? All throughout history, ideas about religion have been stolen and changed to suit different purposes. You can see the chi-ro symbol on everything from ancient churches in Jerusalem to the silverware from sutton hoo to graves from acient africa. It's amazing.

I love churches, but not because of their symbolism really. I like what the symbolise to the people - more so in the past than now. But more so I am amazed at the way they were built, the different phases of contruction.

etc...etc...


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## katie (Nov 17, 2009)

Like Tom, I believe in something.  I'm not scared of being judged or anything though.  I have a great respect for people who have faith, but sometimes organised religion really annoys me.  Most of my friends at school were Christian and I used to have 'debates' with them and argue some of their views.  For example, one of my Christians friends (now my best friends) was really good friends with a gay man, who also just happened to be the RS teacher's son and she was very christian  as was he... I used to say things like "so, are you against Homosexuality?".  And I KNEW she wasn't, but she'd say something like "I'm against the ACT of homosexuality".  Umm yeah, good argument  

Then she went to uni, started to drink more, stopped going to church, found a boyfriend she fell in love with and had sex before marriage.  Which happened to prove the point I always used to make about having faith is fine, but why feel forced into following rules that are a _human beings_ interpretation of God's word.  The rules change from church to church and from Bible to Bible...

Don't get me started on the effect of organised religion on third world countries


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## Freddie99 (Nov 17, 2009)

Minster said:


> hi tom, i believe that a lot of schools are trying now not to ram it down the throats of youngsters as it leads to them no longer wanting to join in after a number of years. my kids go to a CofE school even though they are not religious and they love the school. i understand what its like to have it thrust upon you as my folks were very religious but lucky for me chilled out a lot after a good few years lol.



Ah Minster, 

My education is from the dark and somewhat strange and sinister world of private schools. Think Tom Brown's school days but a little less medieval lol! In my prep school there was alot of emphasis on the religion. Things were alot better at the next place however. The rev was and still is a decent bloke. More importantly he is a down to earth person who left it for us to take or leave as we pleased. There were those who did take it but the majority like me ended up feeling that the weekly chapels and obligatory Sunday chapels were just a general nuisance and something we didn't really care for. I do accept that it was part of the way things worked at that place and that we couldn't avoid it. I just put up with it. It wasn't much of an ask after all and there was soemthing for us all to pick up from the Rev's sermons from time to time if you didn't believe.

Tom


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## Minster (Nov 17, 2009)

salmonpuff said:


> Funnily enough, we had a conversation about this earlier, though it went into quantum physics and all that stuff.
> 
> I do not believe in a God, or Gods although I find the idea of religion fascinating from an archaeological perpective. You realise that the Romans stole the idea of the cross in the first place from the egyptian ankh symbol? And the ancient chi-ro symbol was also lifted by the romans? All throughout history, ideas about religion have been stolen and changed to suit different purposes. You can see the chi-ro symbol on everything from ancient churches in Jerusalem to the silverware from sutton hoo to graves from acient africa. It's amazing.
> 
> ...



hi salmonpuff

i find the buildings are beautiful for the archeology side of them to.


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## katie (Nov 17, 2009)

I went to a CofE Primary School.  The local Vicar was my teacher for a year and also the girl guide leader   Once she shouted at me for saying "Oh my God"  hehe


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## Minster (Nov 17, 2009)

katie said:


> Like Tom, I believe in something.  I'm not scared of being judged or anything though.  I have a great respect for people who have faith, but sometimes organised religion really annoys me.  Most of my friends at school were Christian and I used to have 'debates' with them and argue some of their views.  For example, one of my Christians friends (now my best friends) was really good friends with a gay man, who also just happened to be the RS teacher's son and she was very christian  as was he... I used to say things like "so, are you against Homosexuality?".  And I KNEW she wasn't, but she'd say something like "I'm against the ACT of homosexuality".  Umm yeah, good argument
> 
> Then she went to uni, started to drink more, stopped going to church, found a boyfriend she fell in love with and had sex before marriage.  Which happened to prove the point I always used to make about having faith is fine, but why feel forced into following rules that are a _human beings_ interpretation of God's word.  The rules change from church to church and from Bible to Bible...
> 
> Don't get me started on the effect of organised religion on third world countries



hi katie,

thats such a valid point and for some it is the best way to follow. i, for one, would have been kicked out of the curch even just a few years ago for the fact that i dont discriminate against homosexuals and dont disagree with civil partnerships either. i am, some will say, part of the new breed who are liberal about everything. i think it helps that before i started to train i was a chef and a bit of a hell raiser at that lol so i dont tend to judge people for the choices they make i just try and advise them as to what they want to choose if they are lost 

minster


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## katie (Nov 17, 2009)

Minster said:


> hi katie,
> 
> thats such a valid point and for some it is the best way to follow. i, for one, would have been kicked out of the curch even just a few years ago for the fact that i dont discriminate against homosexuals and dont disagree with civil partnerships either. i am, some will say, part of the new breed who are liberal about everything. i think it helps that before i started to train i was a chef and a bit of a hell raiser at that lol so i dont tend to judge people for the choices they make i just try and advise them as to what they want to choose if they are lost
> 
> minster



Do you think homosexuality is a choice?


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## Minster (Nov 17, 2009)

katie said:


> Do you think homosexuality is a choice?



i for one have made a few very bad choices. i feel homosexuality is a persons own thing and i dont know if they choose it or not. i for one have never really given it much thought really as i have a couple of close friends who are gay. they say they chose to live the way they do but i dont know if it is just them trying to make it more easy to understand. i do feel that some can be born with a predisposition to be certain ways. i hope that helps


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## katie (Nov 17, 2009)

Minster said:


> i for one have made a few very bad choices. i feel homosexuality is a persons own thing and i dont know if they choose it or not. i for one have never really given it much thought really as i have a couple of close friends who are gay. they say they chose to live the way they do but i dont know if it is just them trying to make it more easy to understand. i do feel that some can be born with a predisposition to be certain ways. i hope that helps



Wow, ive never heard anyone say they chose to be gay   Gay people I know just realised they had feelings towards people of the same sex when they were growing up, or fell in love with one particular person who just happened to be the same sex.  I know a guy who's sister is straight, but she has fallen in love with a woman she now lives with.  If she sees a hot guy on tv she'll "ooh he's nice" but she never says it about women lol.

Oops, ive hijacked your topic a bit


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## AlisonM (Nov 17, 2009)

One of my oldest and dearest friends is gay. He didn't choose to be, he just is. It's not been easy and at times has been downright dangerous. No-one in their right mind would choose to be gay, even in this day and age when things are far better than they were when we grew up. There are still so many folk around who are threatened by anything or anyone even a little bit different. I can't be doing with it.


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## Minster (Nov 17, 2009)

AlisonM said:


> One of my oldest and dearest friends is gay. He didn't choose to be, he just is. It's not been easy and at times has been downright dangerous. No-one in their right mind would choose to be gay, even in this day and age when things are far better than they were when we grew up. There are still so many folk around who are threatened by anything or anyone even a little bit different. I can't be doing with it.



hi i wouldnt think of it as a choice either, but it is the words my friends used to me. i wouldnt like to think how it has been for gays in the past, and yes it has been and in some places (even in the uk) still is dangerous. i would never think of trying to say people choose things in life when clearly they wouldnt


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## Northerner (Nov 17, 2009)

I think it's pretty much a nonsense to think that all human beings should share the same sexual orientation. We are incredibly complex beings, and whilst a majority may tend in one direction, the variations along the way are subtley different - in much the same way as our reactions to diabetes can be quite different. I have quite a few gay friends and find it completely normal that they find happiness in homosexual relationships. The only complaint I have against gay men is that they have sometimes assumed I am gay because I like Kate Bush - she's not _*just*_ a gay icon!


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## sofaraway (Nov 17, 2009)

I don't believe in any God, i am interested in Humanism. I believe that we need to make the best out of this life and work to live together. I don't believe that things are meant to be or in fate, but rather in coincidence and chance. 

I don't think being gay/lesbian/bi/trans in a choice, whether it's something genetic that people are born with or effect of early life expereinces, or a mixture of both- I'm not sure. What I know is it's not a choice. I think the recent death of the man in trafalgar square and the trainee policeman attacked in liverpool show that as far as things have come in this country there is still a way to go.


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## katie (Nov 17, 2009)

Definitely Nikki, it's the same with racism.  Unfortunately there will always be stupid, ignorant people in the world 



Northerner said:


> The only complaint I have against gay men is that they have sometimes assumed I am gay because I like Kate Bush - she's not _*just*_ a gay icon!



And you went to see the sugarcubes, Bjork is a gay icon too


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## Northerner (Nov 17, 2009)

katie said:


> ...And you went to see the sugarcubes, Bjork is a gay icon too



I quite like Kylie too...


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## Freddie99 (Nov 17, 2009)

Northerner said:


> The only complaint I have against gay men is that they have sometimes assumed I am gay because I like Kate Bush - she's not _*just*_ a gay icon!



Hahaha, yeah, I get stick occaisionally from a football obsessed flatmate for liking playing rugby. In return she gets all the public schoolboy jokes about being gay!


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## Minster (Nov 17, 2009)

sofaraway said:


> I don't believe in any God, i am interested in Humanism. I believe that we need to make the best out of this life and work to live together. I don't believe that things are meant to be or in fate, but rather in coincidence and chance.
> 
> I don't think being gay/lesbian/bi/trans in a choice, whether it's something genetic that people are born with or effect of early life expereinces, or a mixture of both- I'm not sure. What I know is it's not a choice. I think the recent death of the man in trafalgar square and the trainee policeman attacked in liverpool show that as far as things have come in this country there is still a way to go.



i think the 2 murders were very disturbing in the fact they were carried out in this day and age when we are supposed to be more open minded. i do not think that homosexuals in any way shap or form deserve to be persicuted for the fact they find solitude in the arms of someone from the same sex. i have and never will have anything against it gays at all. and i dont understand how my friends can say it is a choice. they have never been hetrosexual and always been homosexual. i dont really have a clue how they can be saying that they chose to be gay, but as i said it is their words.


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## katie (Nov 17, 2009)

Northerner said:


> I quite like Kylie too...



I like Bjork, Kate Bush and Alanis morissette - i'm obviously a gay man in a woman's body 



Minster said:


> ... and i dont understand how my friends can say it is a choice. they have never been hetrosexual and always been homosexual. i dont really have a clue how they can be saying that they chose to be gay, but as i said it is their words.



are they religious at all?


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## sofaraway (Nov 17, 2009)

maybe what they are saying is they chose to be open about their sexuality and be in relationships with people of the same sex. Someone could be gay but not be open about it and choose not to be in relationships. You can't choose how you feel but you can choose if you act on those feelings. I don't know if I have explained that well.


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## Minster (Nov 17, 2009)

katie said:


> are they religious at all?



they were brought up as strict catholics and had been in the church for many years. one only came out about 4 years ago aged 27 the other came out when he was 22 (about 10 years ago now) and both were shunned by the local church. they havent been able to find a church to practice in since. i have told them they are welcome at the church i work in but i think they have been shut out and feel let down now. i will keep trying to get them to come with me, but i do pray with them on a regular basis at my house. as i have said i dont judge people, i like to feel i am fair and just to all


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## Minster (Nov 17, 2009)

sofaraway said:


> maybe what they are saying is they chose to be open about their sexuality and be in relationships with people of the same sex. Someone could be gay but not be open about it and choose not to be in relationships. You can't choose how you feel but you can choose if you act on those feelings. I don't know if I have explained that well.



i think that may be what they ment  may just have been me being a little slow on the uptake lol.


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## katie (Nov 17, 2009)

sofaraway said:


> maybe what they are saying is they chose to be open about their sexuality and be in relationships with people of the same sex. Someone could be gay but not be open about it and choose not to be in relationships. You can't choose how you feel but you can choose if you act on those feelings. I don't know if I have explained that well.



You have  That could be what they mean.  It's a shame they feel they have to say that though, if that's what they mean.  Choosing not to be in a relationship because you are scared of what other people think is not a nice way to live


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## twinnie (Nov 17, 2009)

Minster said:


> Hi
> 
> i know this is going to be a bit of a difficult one, but as i do believe in god, i just wanted to ask.......................................
> 
> ...



i not religious i used to be but i had a bad time 9 years ago and losted my way but my hubby and my daughter are there go to mass and my daughter is in the church  childrens choir the preist is great with me and he happy for me not to attend as he knows why and that i fully support my daughter


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## ukjohn (Nov 17, 2009)

I sometimes think that we are afraid or reluctant to admit that we have some belief in God, for fear of other people not agreeing with us and causing us to doubt ourselves. I do admit to being a hypocrit in so far that I say I do not believe in God, yet I do sometimes pray for friends that are ill or facing pain. I myself have also found problems in the past have been resolved for me after deep thoughts, and like Bev, I find that sitting in a church is very calming and peaceful and yet I do not attend church. I have no evidence that God exists, but neither do I have any evidence to say that he does not exist.
It is a private thing, and I believe that I am beginning to come of the fence.

John


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## Minster (Nov 17, 2009)

ukjohn said:


> I sometimes think that we are afraid or reluctant to admit that we have some belief in God, for fear of other people not agreeing with us and causing us to doubt ourselves. I do admit to being a hypocrit in so far that I say I do not believe in God, yet I do sometimes pray for friends that are ill or facing pain. I myself have also found problems in the past have been resolved for me after deep thoughts, and like Bev, I find that sitting in a church is very calming and peaceful and yet I do not attend church. I have no evidence that God exists, but neither do I have any evidence to say that he does not exist.
> It is a private thing, and I believe that I am beginning to come of the fence.
> 
> John



well john i think that was very well put  i would like to believe that nobody would be persicuted for their beliefs, but sadly thats not true as it goes on all the time. i understand when you say your not religious but like to pray for sick relatives and friends as it is a comfort to know someone may be listening to you. i also know that it can be very peacefull when in the church and i love being able to go daily to have private prayers and also to just sit and read (not always the good book either lol). it is calming i find due to the fact it is a place that holds its own energy.

i may be well off with the thngs i have said lol but i hope i have come close


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## Twitchy (Nov 17, 2009)

Interesting thread.  I believe in Jesus & would call myself a Christian...but I'm not sure I have much faith in churches any more.  I was raised in a fairly fundamentalist baptist church which, in hindsight had some pretty loopy ideas to put it mildly.  My mum was given a "word" from a member, backed by an elder, the night before a major op for cancer, for which she'd been given a 50:50 survival chance (presumably they wanted to make sure they got their word in first in case she died on the op table).  Their message was, in a nutshell, that she was dying of cancer for "the sins of the family".  Before you ask, no axe murderers, rapists, even petty thieves in the family as far as I am aware and even if there were, doesn't sound very much like Jesus, or anything in the new testament to me anyway...just nasty, vicious judgementalistic venom.  In hindsight this church was pretty much just a comfy middle class club...if your face fitted you got on ok.  Not much evidence of faith, love or charity.

Years later I was pulled up by another evangelical "christian" (different church) for basically not having enough faith to be healed - apparently it's my fault God hasn't miraculously healed me yet from diabetes. (Alternatively, maybe God's plans are a little more subtle & complex than her simplistic vending machine view of him?!)

Yet another example was during an evening service at yet another church, on the subject of "Grace" (as in God's loving, forgiving, all-embracing grace).  Part way through, an apparently drunken guy wandered in at the back of the church & started heckling along the lines of "where's God's grace been in my life then?!"  ie he was obviously desperately hurting & needing answers.  What he got was the comment from the speaker "get that man out of here"... What a missed opportunity to extent a hand of love to someone who needed it, rather than just another brush off. Surely it would have been better even just to ask the man if he'd like to go and have a cuppa and a chat with the curate or someone, rather than humiliating him like that?

So, in summary, believe in God?  Yes.  Believe in Christians?  Skeptical. I know by definition all Christians are "work in progress" but I wonder why so many seem so hell bent on hurting other people?  Sorry if that sounds bitter, I probably am.  Sorry also for long thread.


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## Minster (Nov 17, 2009)

Twitchy said:


> Interesting thread.  I believe in Jesus & would call myself a Christian...but I'm not sure I have much faith in churches any more.  I was raised in a fairly fundamentalist baptist church which, in hindsight had some pretty loopy ideas to put it mildly.  My mum was given a "word" from a member, backed by an elder, the night before a major op for cancer, for which she'd been given a 50:50 survival chance (presumably they wanted to make sure they got their word in first in case she died on the op table).  Their message was, in a nutshell, that she was dying of cancer for "the sins of the family".  Before you ask, no axe murderers, rapists, even petty thieves in the family as far as I am aware and even if there were, doesn't sound very much like Jesus, or anything in the new testament to me anyway...just nasty, vicious judgementalistic venom.  In hindsight this church was pretty much just a comfy middle class club...if your face fitted you got on ok.  Not much evidence of faith, love or charity.
> 
> Years later I was pulled up by another evangelical "christian" (different church) for basically not having enough faith to be healed - apparently it's my fault God hasn't miraculously healed me yet from diabetes. (Alternatively, maybe God's plans are a little more subtle & complex than her simplistic vending machine view of him?!)
> 
> ...



i can understand why you would feel like you do after seeing the church at its worst. i for one would never ever like to be treated like that at all and for a church to say that to your mum is just shocking!!! i however am from the new age of the church where we dont judge for mistakes or what you do or who you love. we like to think of everyone as one of gods children and that we all have a place in his eternal kingdom of heaven. i believe in the grace of god and think that the preachers who spit hatred and venom in sermons to put fear into the congregation need to be weeded out and moved away from the church as they are not preading the word of our lord. in a nutshell i believe everyone will oneday see what the lord has instore for us all. if its a sin to be diabetic then the lord would not have called me to be one of his ministers sent forth to spread his word.

i think the ministers you have encountered are very shallow in their views and find the power they have been given overwhelming. i for one feel humble by the power i have been entrusted with for my short few years on this magnificent earth.


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## HelenP (Nov 17, 2009)

I was brought up a Roman Catholic (and yes, 40 odd years ago it WAS rammed into you - especially when you go to a Convent school!!).  I'm no longer what is called a 'practising' Catholic, as I don't go to Church any more, although in my eyes I do still 'practise' all the Christian beliefs I was brought up with, and my children were all baptised and went to Catholic schools. 

I think I do believe in God, not necessarily the 'fairytale' biblical God that we're familiar with, but _some_thing, as I quite often have a chat with the ol feller - either that or I'm just loopy and am talking to myself - but I'm not mad about organised religion as such.  I believe in good Christian values (maybe not so much when I'm driving in the rush hour, plenty of profanity there!!  ), but not in all the rules and regulations to which Catholics are supposed to adhere without any flexibility.

I don't believe that God has all the answers, and I certainly have lots of those "Okay then, why does THIS happen?" type questions, and I don't believe that just because _*I*_ believe that everyone else should.

I'm not really sure what that makes me, only wanting to pick and choose certain parts as it pleases me.................................. 

xx


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## Twitchy (Nov 17, 2009)

I just think there are much better things for churches to get their knickers in a twist about than people loving out of church / societal boundaries, or differing on points of human imposed doctrine.  I just think in a world where children are starving to death as we sit here, being abused or neglected (to cite just one example of injustice in the world) it's just obscene that anyone can be more interested in picking pieces out of other people on the grounds of doctrine than in mobilising efforts to at least be a drop in the ocean alleviating these things.  What really matters more?! Can't see Jesus being more interested in the details of remarriage after divorce for example than feeding the hungry, defending the vulnerable etc myself.  

There, rant over, off me soapbox now.


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## rossi_mac (Nov 17, 2009)

Cor Blimey another very intresting thread that is making me think (not all that advisably sometimes!) When I've finished this I hope it makes some sense!

Fathers family and father very religious (free church of Scotland) Mother was Methodist but decided when I was (guessing) arounnd ten that she did not believe. Up until that point we went to church every Sunday, and I guess it helped shape me and educate me to a degree.

We got married with a religious ceremony in a chapel, and I enjoy weddings funerals (not in a weird way) christenings at any place of worship, we went to midnight mass christmas eve last year, seriously the first  time I have ever done that! I guess I am religious, but unsure of how so, and what department, as my upbringing hasn't defined it. I would say more positively I was but fear people question my thoughts/ideas and I wouldn't be able to argue (not best word here) my points/belief. I guess I would like to go to church more often than ceremonies and hope one day I will (maybe after house is extended!) but am I just scared of then saying to people I go to church (is church cool man?) not that it would really bother me. I'm trying not to sound shallow here! So maybe I'm just a fair weather believer, 

Schools and church, never went to one  but feel no matter how soft the approach some children will feel that it is beind rammed down their throats, it the nature of learning surely, but conversly for a large (?(hopefully)) number it forms a good base for structured learning both the syllabus and perhaps morals. As with everything it has at least two stories/sides and examples of where the same thing works for one and not for someone else.

Wowser I need a lie down too much thought for one night.

Cheers

Rossi


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## Minster (Nov 17, 2009)

HelenP said:


> I was brought up a Roman Catholic (and yes, 40 odd years ago it WAS rammed into you - especially when you go to a Convent school!!).  I'm no longer what is called a 'practising' Catholic, as I don't go to Church any more, although in my eyes I do still 'practise' all the Christian beliefs I was brought up with, and my children were all baptised and went to Catholic schools.
> 
> I think I do believe in God, not necessarily the 'fairytale' biblical God that we're familiar with, but _some_thing, as I quite often have a chat with the ol feller - either that or I'm just loopy and am talking to myself - but I'm not mad about organised religion as such.  I believe in good Christian values (maybe not so much when I'm driving in the rush hour, plenty of profanity there!!  ), but not in all the rules and regulations to which Catholics are supposed to adhere without any flexibility.
> 
> ...



hi helen,

well i dont think it is wrong to not go to church and i dont think it is wrong to choose which parts of the religion you like to practice at all. it is what makes us human after all. if you dont like a certain food you dont eat it. same in my eyes goes for religion. if there is a part of the religion you dont like then dont practice it. i for one dont like the way certain parts of the church frown on married vicars and i aim to be sticking to fingers up to that next year when i get married to my lovely otherhalf  im luck in the fact the vicar i am understudy to is very liberal to and he has no problems with anything in life. the way he sees it and s its the same for me is that religions need to evolve with the times to stay close to what is reality.



Twitchy said:


> I just think there are much better things for churches to get their knickers in a twist about than people loving out of church / societal boundaries, or differing on points of human imposed doctrine.  I just think in a world where children are starving to death as we sit here, being abused or neglected (to cite just one example of injustice in the world) it's just obscene that anyone can be more interested in picking pieces out of other people on the grounds of doctrine than in mobilising efforts to at least be a drop in the ocean alleviating these things.  What really matters more?! Can't see Jesus being more interested in the details of remarriage after divorce for example than feeding the hungry, defending the vulnerable etc myself.
> 
> There, rant over, off me soapbox now.



i couldnt agree more with you twitchy. there is so much going on in the world that it is insignificant if the lord once told us certain things. in todays society things are changing fast and i think the church (or certain parts of it) are changing to which is a good thing so as to keep upto date and not alienate anyone. i know when i get my own parish church i will be welcoming anyone who wants to come and join us.



rossi_mac said:


> Cor Blimey another very intresting thread that is making me think (not all that advisably sometimes!) When I've finished this I hope it makes some sense!
> 
> Fathers family and father very religious (free church of Scotland) Mother was Methodist but decided when I was (guessing) arounnd ten that she did not believe. Up until that point we went to church every Sunday, and I guess it helped shape me and educate me to a degree.
> 
> ...



hi rossi

well i for one feel church is cool and i am not ashamed to be religious lol but i think it isnt cool in the mainstream way yet. things are getting better though thanks to certain television shows now showing religion in the way it should. i wouldnt say that anyone who is religious needs to say to people hi i go to church as it is private to you. i would say tho that the lord is all around us and hears you pray no matter where you are


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## am64 (Nov 17, 2009)

i supose my problem is, with the written religion of the bible, that is taught to us by the christian church and is essentially all about the life and works of god and JC, The bible that is used in most christain churches was seriously ammended and re written over the years to suit the overall ruler/king requirements at the time in order to control the population...the bible therefore is not the true words of god as often it is quoted
...alot of the control was achevied by using fear and damnation in the words preached from the rewrtten bibles and the physical surroundings..churches were the biggest structures around they towered over the populationand  the use of accoustics is spectacular... ever been when the bass of the organ thunders down the aisle at such a low frequency it makes you tremble...
... i find it difficult to speak the doctrine ...they say god made man in his/her own image... then surely he wouldnt want them to be scrapping around saying they are not 'Worthy' of even the crumbs under his table...thats arrogance and i dont think god or jesus ever wanted to be arrogant people.
I do believe however that there are and have been some pretty remarkable people through the ages whose words are there to guide us that are now followed by millions all over the world within what ever religon they like to call it, christain,muslium,hindu,jewish,to name the more obvious ones, and in essence the various prophets say exactly the same things but maybe in a different cultural way,    
the problem lies wholly in the interpretation and manipulation of the differnt phrophets teachings to suit...leading to extremism which is dangerous which ever religion that it hides within.

I believe in truth and impecciblity...what ever you do do it to your best and with honestly....bit like does exactly what it says on the tin attitude xx


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## shiv (Nov 18, 2009)

i lost all interest in christianity when the opening line at my grandad's funeral (who btw was a deacon at his church, and there were a lot of high up people from the catholic church at the funeral) were "we are all sinners, and we all deserve to be punished". i can remember that moment with great clarity and it broke my heart that we had to start the funeral in such a negative light (it was though a lovely funeral in the end. my uncle gave a lovely speech and i played "amazing grace" on the flute).

my grandad was the kindest man you could meet. he was so friendly and funny. he died when i was 15 so i don't have a great deal of memories, but what i DO remember is being told one story how he went somewhere with his church once (i think it was Poland) and the people he was staying with spoke no English. apparently after just a couple of hours, he had them cracking up at his jokes, even though they didn't speak each other's languages, he still made them laugh. and i think that is a perfect representation of him for me. he never pushed religion on us, and for that i am grateful. every time i visit a church/cathedral, be it catholic or not, i always light a candle for him. i really wish he was still around - the world needs more people like my grandad.

...to follow on, i consider myself spiritual. i do believe in a higher power, but i also believe that we make our own decisions. i believe that everything happens for a reason, even if the reason doesn't seem to justify the action...maybe what i mean is, there is always something to be learned from everything that happens.

i have no problem with religion at all when it is used as a positive thing. it's when it's used as the justification for negative actions i take issue with it.


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## Caroline (Nov 18, 2009)

Minster said:


> Hi
> 
> i know this is going to be a bit of a difficult one, but as i do believe in god, i just wanted to ask.......................................
> 
> ...




I chose not to believe in God a long time ago and looked around for something that suited me. For about the last 12 years I have tried to follow Buddhist teachings although I still celebrate things like Christmas and Easter with my family as that is what they believe in.


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## Jean (Nov 18, 2009)

*My two penn'orth*

If there is a God, it must be intimately bound up with this world, otherwise it is an irrelevance.

Therefore any belief in God must be nothing other than an interpretation of experience encountered in living in the world.

So the issue becomes: can the interpretation of our experiences lead on to faith in a deity?  Is there, indeed, anything in my own interpretations that causes me to move towards faith?

A couple of things occur to me, but I am very wary of falling into the trap of assuming that those experiences are universally shared and universally interpreted in the same way.  The point, made more than once, that concrete proof is needed is one that must be faced first. So here goes:

Some things can be proved, some can't.  But these aren't the only positions.  There's a third - and it's a sort of halfway house.   It is non-provable, but shared by so many people that it is deserving of being called true.  Feelings of relief are an example.  We cannot prove to another person that we feel relieved when something does not turn out to be as bad as we feared; but so many folk experience this sensation that it must be a truth.  It's something that I suppose could be called corporate subjectivity: we all know it's a reality, but none of us can prove it.

So, here are the couple of things that occur to me; both unprovable but both universally shared.

1. Many a time in my life have I been faced with an intractable problem.  Given a choice, I'd prefer to sit in the back room and try to wrestle it through to a more or less satisfactory outcome.  But there's children to be attended to and money that has to be earned. So, with much reluctance, I start to go about my daily routine.  And my  experience is this: that as I do so, gradually the mist clears, new hope comes and a solution, however imperfect, presents itself. I didn't do it; it's a development that I didn't create.  So how did it come to happen....a pointer, a rumour of a divinity, perhaps...

2. Moving away from the personal into the national and international, the Roman Empire was one of the greatest empires the world has known.  And it's just vanished.  History tells us it fell to corruption from within and pressures from without. And yet it was so powerful!  Time after time this has happened, with empire after empire apparently impregnable and then collapsing.  In our own time, we've seen it happening to the Third Reich (or at least, in my time!), the Soviet Union, and the apartheid system, not to mention the regimes in smaller areas such as the Philippines and Uganda.  It's as if a limit is set on human evil: a government is free to do as it wishes, to exercise control, but when it, as it were, touches an invisible marker, it disintegrates.  It's a unversal rule - but totally unprovable.  But where did this limitation on human evil come from?  A god, perhaps?

People have been heard to say that they have faith, but it needs to be incorporated in their understanding of the world.  To me, it's the other way round: it's the understanding of the world and the human condition that has to lead on to faith...or not.

For my part, I suspect that there is evidence of a Power that is at work to pschologically sustain and to establish boundaries on human evil.


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## Caroline (Nov 18, 2009)

Maybe a question to throw into the mix is does God exist? There is no real proof either way for his existence or non existence. I choose not to believe, but for all those who do belive, God is very real and very tangible.

Antother question that often crosses my mind is what is more important, releigion or the people who created it and follow it? There is no right or wrong answer as we are all different and have different experiences.

Religion for many helps to provide a moral code to live by which helps to provide stability for many, lots of people need an anchor of some kind as we navigate lifes oceans. It is a point of reference and something to come back to to help solve our problems.

It used to be that religion was used to explain things we did not understand, and to some extent is still used that way. It is a reason why and an explanation as to how things happen.


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## Minster (Nov 18, 2009)

i think you have hit on a good point there jean that just because something isnt proven to be there/exists/unprovable doesnt meen it doesnt exist. i think we all know feelings exists but what proof do we have? it is a very good argument to use jean and i for one like to think people will see it as a very valid point to be raised.

hi caroline, i do think god exists as i have a personal experience of feeling the touch of god in my life. i also feel that you question of which is more important the religion or those who created it and follow it. for me it is the religion itself and how i understand what it meens for me. i have been given a very very special gift in my life by being able to talk to god and also to spread his word, but i do believe that god is wanting me to do that in my own special way.


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## Twitchy (Nov 18, 2009)

I think that if you just looked at the character of Jesus (who is factually known to have existed, whatever you make of the resurrection), we'd all be hooked - what a guy!  (& as someone once said to me, if it's not all true, when you peg it, really, what have you lost?  Worst case scenario you'll have lead a good life, as a caring, sincere person - hopefully! )  

Sadly as ever, "people" (as in organised groups) get involved, start putting their own rules in place (and the petty politics & power games soon follow) & everyone gets turned off, because the truth of the message is lost in the noise of the pettiness.  My old granddad was a farmer - a hard life, with not much room for sentimentality...his approach was "why can't people just have a simple faith?".  Good point Granddad!  For me, if people want to make it any more complicated than the bottom line basics (get to know J & try to live & treat other people the way you think he would - ie love them!!!), then I get very nervous indeed.  By all means, if you (generical you, no-one in particular that is!) have rituals that help you feel close to God, go for it!...just don't expect that everyone will conform - we're all made individuals & we all have our own path to tread.

(Sorry, really will resist posting on this thread again - gets me on my soap box every time!! )


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## Minster (Nov 18, 2009)

Twitchy said:


> I think that if you just looked at the character of Jesus (who is factually known to have existed, whatever you make of the resurrection), we'd all be hooked - what a guy!  (& as someone once said to me, if it's not all true, when you peg it, really, what have you lost?  Worst case scenario you'll have lead a good life, as a caring, sincere person - hopefully! )
> 
> Sadly as ever, "people" (as in organised groups) get involved, start putting their own rules in place (and the petty politics & power games soon follow) & everyone gets turned off, because the truth of the message is lost in the noise of the pettiness.  My old granddad was a farmer - a hard life, with not much room for sentimentality...his approach was "why can't people just have a simple faith?".  Good point Granddad!  For me, if people want to make it any more complicated than the bottom line basics (get to know J & try to live & treat other people the way you think he would - ie love them!!!), then I get very nervous indeed.  By all means, if you (generical you, no-one in particular that is!) have rituals that help you feel close to God, go for it!...just don't expect that everyone will conform - we're all made individuals & we all have our own path to tread.
> 
> (Sorry, really will resist posting on this thread again - gets me on my soap box every time!! )



your not on a soapbox at all twitchy 

i think you have a good point in the fact if you look a jesus as a man and just that a man. he was nothing more really (if you overlook the fact he was gods son) but took it on his ownself to love his fellow man and be sincere and trusting in all his doings. he even love men who didnt love him back. he held no malice at all and didnt want the people who's lives he touched to hold mallice towards anyone.

i agree with there being a need for faith to be simple and also that people are individuals who will believe what they want to. i am a individual who believes in god , but also the fact the he may be my shepherd, but that i am not a sheep. i feel for me it is saying that i do believe in god and that he is my guide but that he IS just that a guide and not a path.

all faiths have their own flaws and to say mine doesnt would be very very shallow and narrow of me.


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## am64 (Nov 18, 2009)

hi minster id be interested in a response to my post cheers


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## Minster (Nov 18, 2009)

am64 said:


> hi minster id be interested in a response to my post cheers



which post am64??


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## am64 (Nov 18, 2009)

am64 said:


> i supose my problem is, with the written religion of the bible, that is taught to us by the christian church and is essentially all about the life and works of god and JC, The bible that is used in most christain churches was seriously ammended and re written over the years to suit the overall ruler/king requirements at the time in order to control the population...the bible therefore is not the true words of god as often it is quoted
> ...alot of the control was achevied by using fear and damnation in the words preached from the rewrtten bibles and the physical surroundings..churches were the biggest structures around they towered over the populationand  the use of accoustics is spectacular... ever been when the bass of the organ thunders down the aisle at such a low frequency it makes you tremble...
> ... i find it difficult to speak the doctrine ...they say god made man in his/her own image... then surely he wouldnt want them to be scrapping around saying they are not 'Worthy' of even the crumbs under his table...thats arrogance and i dont think god or jesus ever wanted to be arrogant people.
> I do believe however that there are and have been some pretty remarkable people through the ages whose words are there to guide us that are now followed by millions all over the world within what ever religon they like to call it, christain,muslium,hindu,jewish,to name the more obvious ones, and in essence the various prophets say exactly the same things but maybe in a different cultural way,
> ...



soz i thought you might of missed it so here we go again x


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## Minster (Nov 18, 2009)

am64 said:


> i supose my problem is, with the written religion of the bible, that is taught to us by the christian church and is essentially all about the life and works of god and JC, The bible that is used in most christain churches was seriously ammended and re written over the years to suit the overall ruler/king requirements at the time in order to control the population...the bible therefore is not the true words of god as often it is quoted
> ...alot of the control was achevied by using fear and damnation in the words preached from the rewrtten bibles and the physical surroundings..churches were the biggest structures around they towered over the populationand  the use of accoustics is spectacular... ever been when the bass of the organ thunders down the aisle at such a low frequency it makes you tremble...
> ... i find it difficult to speak the doctrine ...they say god made man in his/her own image... then surely he wouldnt want them to be scrapping around saying they are not 'Worthy' of even the crumbs under his table...thats arrogance and i dont think god or jesus ever wanted to be arrogant people.
> I do believe however that there are and have been some pretty remarkable people through the ages whose words are there to guide us that are now followed by millions all over the world within what ever religon they like to call it, christain,muslium,hindu,jewish,to name the more obvious ones, and in essence the various prophets say exactly the same things but maybe in a different cultural way,
> ...



i hope i have the right post you wanted me to reply to am64.

my take on the points you have here are that i feel that you are correct about the lord not wanting us to say we are not worthy and i feel that the church now is stoppiing a lot of that, but it will never completly go away due to the fact we will always have fundamentalists. it is these sever religious followers that now are tarnishing the whole religious ideology. i know it hasnt always been this way and im not talking about the fundamentalists as in al quada or the likes. it is the fundamentalists from within that are getting the wrong words out. it is mans own interpritation of the lords word.

i got a very special gift a few months ago from a close friend who is a roman catholic. he has just finished his training as a priest and has now taken up a post overseas in africa. the gift he gave me was a copy of the origional bible. it is the greatest gift i could have got as a religious man (besides the gift of my children) as it shows me the true word of our lord and what he wanted us to be like. i have been reading it and also the vicar who is training me has been sat reading it with me and we are both very very taken by the book and feel it is a very special book. if at all possible i would recommend it to you to read as i think it may show you what the lord wanted us to turn out like as it is not diluted or rewritten.


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## am64 (Nov 18, 2009)

am64 said:


> i supose my problem is, with the written religion of the bible, that is taught to us by the christian church and is essentially all about the life and works of god and JC, The bible that is used in most christain churches was seriously ammended and re written over the years to suit the overall ruler/king requirements at the time in order to control the population...the bible therefore is not the true words of god as often it is quoted
> 
> 
> I believe in truth and impecciblity...what ever you do do it to your best and with honestly....bit like does exactly what it says on the tin attitude xx



ohhh now thats a bible that might be worth reading...what is the publisher and edition?


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## Minster (Nov 18, 2009)

am64 said:


> ohhh now thats a bible that might be worth reading...what is the publisher and edition?



lol i will look it up for you for the publisher, but the edition is first edition. as i say i got it from a friend who is a roman catholic preist. i dont know how he got it, but it is a very sacred book for me.


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## AlisonM (Nov 18, 2009)

The bible, at least the King James version, contains some of the most beautiful poetry ever written. And, some of the bloodthirstiest stories of hatred and bigotry in existence. As a collection of myths and legends, it gives a great insight into the mores and attitudes of past societies. I think the people who wrote Revelations must have been on the old magic mushrooms. To take the thing as 'gospel' or use it as a template for life is sheer idiocy in my opinion. Same goes for the Torah, the Quran and the Rigveda.


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## Northerner (Nov 18, 2009)

AlisonM said:


> The bible, at least the King James version, contains some of the most beautiful poetry ever written. And, some of the bloodthirstiest stories of hatred and bigotry in existence. As a collection of myths and legends, it gives a great insight into the mores and attitudes of past societies. I think the people who wrote Revelations must have been on the old magic mushrooms. To take the thing as 'gospel' or use it as a template for life is sheer idiocy in my opinion. Same goes for the Torah, the Quran and the Rigveda.



My grandad called it 'The Greatest Fairy Story Ever Told' - just his take on it!


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## am64 (Nov 18, 2009)

AlisonM said:


> The bible, at least the King James version, contains some of the most beautiful poetry ever written. And, some of the bloodthirstiest stories of hatred and bigotry in existence. As a collection of myths and legends, it gives a great insight into the mores and attitudes of past societies. I think the people who wrote Revelations must have been on the old magic mushrooms. To take the thing as 'gospel' or use it as a template for life is sheer idiocy in my opinion. Same goes for the Torah, the Quran and the Rigveda.



I totally agree...i dont think we actually see or have knowlegde of most of what is around us, A friend of mine recently said
" how do you achieve enlightenment.....try lightening up " love it !!


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