# Update: 180 degree turn - LCHF to Plant based/no oil



## JTI (Nov 4, 2016)

I have been away from the site for a while.  Well another update, and my experience with LCHF has come to a close.

To be honest after the eight weeks and the move to a 5:2 diet, the weight loss slowed to almost a halt. I experimented with Intermittent Fasting - by far the worst thing I did. It kept my sugar level high for two whole days. Shortly after that,  my sugar levels started creeping higher and higher despite less than 25-40g carbs a day. I would regularly wake up with an 8.0 + sugar level.  I had to start injecting for meals that had zero carbs. I increased my lantus to 20. So despite brilliant results in the 8 weeks, and temporary normalising of sugar levels I can't seem to find a way to make it work longer term - not unless I want to have 800 calories a day for ever.  I am most disappointed that my insulin resistance seemed to worsen.

I will say overall it was not very difficult to live on the LCHF diet and initially the benefits were great, but no sustainable for me.

But the 180 turn had another reason. I had an angiogram taken that showed a worsening of my arteries and blockages despite perfect cholestorol, loss of weight and normal blood pressure. I am sure that LCHF contributed to the worsening of arteries. Actually it has been scientifically proven to worsen arteries previously but I didn't want to think too much of it at the time as I was convinced LCHF was 'the way'.  Of course, I do know that diabetes alone does a lot of damage itself.

I have heart disease now and need to focus on this. I want to avoid by pass surgery - so, I have decided to embark on a new journey. I am following the Esselstyn/Neil Barnard diet. This is totally plant-based (i.e., vegan) with zero oil/nuts. Yes it is drastic. I have been on it over two weeks now.  Despite now eating almost 170-200g of carbs a day, my sugar levels have been very stable and I am losing weight again. I am wary of what carbs I eat. I still don't eat bread, potatoes, pasta or noodles. I have tried some brown rice and quinoa. I eat oatmeal.  I do inject a little for my oatmeal and brown rice, but waking up to 5.1 sugar level again every day is great.  I am learning which beans/pulses work for me and which don't. Eating fruit is wonderful again and it doesn't affect my sugar levels ( if I have only one fruit at a time!)

The change was mentally hard at first, but eating at home has not been a problem. I do miss chicken and I am still going to eat Christmas dinner! My wife says my skin is glowing and I am looking younger, so there are some positives! Trying to eat vegan with no oil when travelling for work has been REALLY HARD. There is literally nothing to eat at restaurants. I end up going to M&S and buying salads to eat in my hotel room.


Note I went on the new diet on 15th October.
My Stats:
Weight loss:
Start date 17/7/16: 98.2kg
31/7/16: 91.2kg
11/08/16: 88.1kg
22/8/16: 86.1kg
7/9/16: 83.5kg
22/9/16: 81.3Kg
03/10/16: 80.5kg
15/10/16: 79.7kg
04/11/16: 77.0kg

Average Fasting blood sugar
Start date 01/7/16 to 17/7/16: 7.5
18/7/16 to 22/08/16: 5.2
22/8/16 to 7/9/16 : 6.0
7/9/16 to 22/9/16: 6.3
22/9/16 to 15/10/16: 7.8
15/10/16 to today: 5.7

Humalog:
Start date 17/07/16: 60 units per meal.
Today: 10 units for breakfast and 10 units with dinner sometimes.

Lantus:
Start date 17/7/16: 80 units per night
Today: 20 units per night (went down to 10 units and crept back up to 20).
.

Metformin:
No change - 1000mg per day


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## Northerner (Nov 4, 2016)

Wishing you every success @JTI  Hope your determination and efforts work out well for you


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## grovesy (Nov 4, 2016)

Hope it continues to work for you!


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## Martin Canty (Nov 4, 2016)

Will be very interested in the results, keep us posted on the progress.... I have read of many T2's who benefit from this kind of diet

The only conversation I've had about a Plant-Based HCLF diet has been with a rabid vegan who had no clue about D, the causes & the fact that we have it for life, didn't understand control vs cure Apparently everything I ate caused my D & plant-based HCLF is the only way I could be cured Ironically I have eaten more veggies since being LCHF....


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## PinkGrapefruit (Nov 4, 2016)

Sounds really tough, but well done for trying it and glad to hear it is helping your BS. I've not heard of this, but Id not heard of LC a few months ago either!


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## JTI (Nov 7, 2016)

Thank you for the support. 

So far, it is having the same effect as the LCHF. I think both approaches actually work for diabetes but neither camp want to admit it! 

I am still trying to get my head around how I can eat a bowl of oatmeal with banana, flax and chia without injecting anything and yet two hours later, my sugar level is only 6.8. Clearly insulin sensitivity is improving. My average waking sugar level in the last week has been 4.9.  Something is working.  But I will keep everyone posted.


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## PinkGrapefruit (Nov 7, 2016)

JTI, do you have any links to the diet - I would like to read up a bit more about it.

Best wishes, PG


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## JTI (Nov 8, 2016)

I bought the books off amazon (it only cost about £2.50 second hand). 

http://www.pcrm.org/shop/byNealBarnard/dr-barnards-program-for-reversing-diabetes - there is information about the diet on the website as well. 

http://www.dresselstyn.com/site/ 

The essence of both programs is extremely low fat plant based diet. There are no eggs, dairy, meat, oils, nuts or avocados. Wholegrains only (i.e., no white bread, rice or pasta), beans and pulses and an abundance of vegetables and fruit. The only fruit not recommended is pineapple and watermelon. 

It sounds drastic, but I have to say I have enjoyed every meal (apart from my first experiment with plain boiled kale!). There is no portion size or calorie control.  I have now enjoyed my seventh day in a row of between 4.7 and 4.9 fasting.  I did enter all my food for a couple of days into myfitnesspal to work out how many calories I had consumed and it only came to about 1200. I know I need to eat more.


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## Martin Canty (Nov 8, 2016)

JTI said:


> plain boiled kale!).


Yup, that would take a bit of getting used to...... However baby Kale is quite good.


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## JTI (Dec 14, 2016)

I thought I would post a little up date.  I have now been on this plant based (vegan) low fat diet for almost 2 months. This is based on Esselstyn/McDougall/Barnard diet. 

I have lost a small amount of weight (5kg over two months) and my fasting sugar levels have remained good at around 5.0. Whilst I have been able to reduce my lantus back to 15 (because of the hypos overnight), I have found I need to increase my humalog for some meals. 
However, my postprandial readings are all over the place. It has rarely ever been below 7.0. It can occasionally go over 10.0 - but most of the time it is around 8.5. I have had a few more hypos as well. I will admit that I have not really exercised other than maintaining 10000 steps a day - so that might be impacting things.

The funny thing, everyone asks me 'so are you feeling so much better on this diet'. I always say yes, but the reality is I don't feel any better for it, neither am I feeling worse. I don't have any extra energy or anything, in fact I am feeling more tired (but it could just be I have a lot on at work). One reaction I seem to have is my hair has gone thinner, and I don't like it. Apparently it is normal in the first couple months and then it goes back to normal. I only hope it does! 

The food IS great, I am really enjoying my food. I never thought I would say that I don't really miss meat or eggs - but it's true. I am discovering some foods I never ate and finding foods that don't affect my sugar levels. I have fallen in love with kale, cabbage, asparagus and brussel sprouts. I also love quinoa and bulgur.  I think that basically I am probably consuming too many carbs and need to cut back and I think it is more about portion control.


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## gkhchay (Dec 14, 2016)

Hey JTI, great that the plant based diet is working for you.

I'm on LCHF and am in pretty good health I would say. Most T2Ds I've spoken with do pretty well on LCHF. I guess it just shows that everyone is different and we need to find out what works for us individually.


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## grovesy (Dec 14, 2016)

gkhchay said:


> Hey JTI, great that the plant based diet is working for you.
> 
> I'm on LCHF and am in pretty good health I would say. Most T2Ds I've spoken with do pretty well on LCHF. I guess it just shows that everyone is different and we need to find out what works for us individually.


Yes you will find that a few of us keep saying this and our tolerances are differnt.


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## gkhchay (Dec 14, 2016)

grovesy said:


> Yes you will find that a few of us keep saying this and our tolerances are differnt.


Yes, that's very true.

I'm just wondering how a plant based diet lowers insulin and blood sugar since it's the carbs (or at least I've been told via the LCHF channel) that raise both. I've got friends who are T2D and eating brown rice and oatmeal just shoot up their blood sugar levels.


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## JTI (Dec 14, 2016)

It depends on the carbs. I find oatmeal (even with banana), bulgur, quinoa, potatoes or beans do not affect my blood glucose much, but rice, and anything with flour does affect it quite a bit.  I also think combining starchy carbs with beans raises bg even more. I do think that carb tolerance can improve as insulin resistance/sensitivity improve. I could never eat oatmeal without injecting before, but now I can.


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## Martin Canty (Dec 14, 2016)

Well done for the progress on the new Plant-Based HCLF diet, it's good to get feedback from an actual D & not a rabid vegan....

I actually am of the opinion that much of our BG control is down to the quality of the food, LCHF/HCLF done right forces us to make our meals from scratch. Personally I put quite a bit of effort into ensuring that we have a nutritionally sound low GI LCHF diet vs the previous carb  laden diet that I enjoyed for 20+ years. These days we (my wife & I) eat a lot more veg & salad than we ever did before and are thriving.

It really goes down to developing a diet plan that works and reevaluating that plan over time..... We are all different, we all have differing tolerances. Our individual tolerance is more than likely to change over time.


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## gkhchay (Dec 15, 2016)

JTI said:


> It depends on the carbs. I find oatmeal (even with banana), bulgur, quinoa, potatoes or beans do not affect my blood glucose much, but rice, and anything with flour does affect it quite a bit.  I also think combining starchy carbs with beans raises bg even more. I do think that carb tolerance can improve as insulin resistance/sensitivity improve. I could never eat oatmeal without injecting before, but now I can.



I see! So it's experimenting with the different veggies, whole grains, beans and pulses to see which are the combinations that work best for you. That's very interesting.

I've actually heard about plant based diets being good for T2D patients but didn't find out more since LCHF works for me.


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## JTI (Dec 15, 2016)

LCHF worked for me for a few months also until my sugars started going out of control for no reason - then I found myself injecting for zero carbs. I think something went funny with my carb-tolerance. But I think it works really well for many and for the first few months my sugar levels were near perfect all the time. 

I started off as a reluctant vegan as I always liked chicken. I do plan to have a proper Christmas dinner though as I don't want to be the awkward vegan sod at the family Christmas! There is a vegan at work, and she wasn't pleased when I said I don't care one iota for the suffering of cows or environmental impact of roast chicken!

I was wondering to myself which diet I preferred. To be honest it is hard to say - they both had tasty food. They are just different ends of the spectrum. I will say LCHF was much much easier when eating out. On LCHF I was starting to get bored of eggs, but who knows, I may start getting bored of vegetables! 

I agree that finding the right diet for a T2D is all about experimenting with food and working out with trial and error. There is rarely a one-size-fits-all.


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## gkhchay (Dec 15, 2016)

JTI said:


> LCHF worked for me for a few months also until my sugars started going out of control for no reason - then I found myself injecting for zero carbs. I think something went funny with my carb-tolerance. But I think it works really well for many and for the first few months my sugar levels were near perfect all the time.
> 
> I started off as a reluctant vegan as I always liked chicken. I do plan to have a proper Christmas dinner though as I don't want to be the awkward vegan sod at the family Christmas! There is a vegan at work, and she wasn't pleased when I said I don't care one iota for the suffering of cows or environmental impact of roast chicken!
> 
> ...



Woah! Zero carbs and your blood sugar still went up? First time I've heard of it.... really sounds incredulous!

But thanks a million for sharing! I learned quite a bit from your experience. I can't imagine being on a vegan diet to be honest, and thank goodness everything's okay for me ever since I started on paleo in 2008 then changed it to LCHF when I found out my risk factors for T2D were pretty high with both parents being Type 2 diabetics.


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## Ditto (Dec 15, 2016)

Thanks for sharing. Good info on this thread, not that I understand the half of it.  Worrying about the cholesterol/blockages etc., as I do Atkins which is low carb but not high protein despite what everybody thinks.


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## trophywench (Dec 15, 2016)

gkhchay said:


> Woah! Zero carbs and your blood sugar still went up? First time I've heard of it.... really sounds incredulous!



Well - you know when prehistoric man used to be about on the earth?

And you know his diet was limited to stuff like nuts and berries and sporadic protein whenever he could manage to bag a woolly mammoth - so either a gut of protein or famine of it, depending on the seasons and the weather?

What the hell do you think HIS body used to process into blood glucose to keep him alive in the first place and physically/mentally able & active for the second?

The body can convert all 3 food group to glucose - carbs are by FAR the easiest ones to do, then comes protein, and lastly, fat - which is really hard work for it to do - and it's what happens in rampant undiagnosed and untreated diabetes, when the sufferer loses weight, fairly quickly (or mega quickly) simply because the body is having to 'eat' all of its own body fat and convert it to glucose since it's totally unable to convert food itself, to try and just keep the heart beating, lungs and brain working and if left untreated the person will first become comatose and subsequently die of multiple organ failure as the body gradually shuts down each system to try and save enough glucose to prevent the brain dying.

It's quite shocking - especially for Type 1s - once they become aware of there but for the grace of God - could have gone *I*.


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## 4-40yrs+ diabetic (Dec 19, 2016)

I'm very interested in your hard work JTI . I too am having cardiological problems after using lchf diet to lose weight. I overate on protein unbeknown it wasn't quite the right ratios of nutrients. I experienced palpatations, dizziness and no weight loss.
I am planning on a better attempt at lchf with far less protein in the new year. I'm happy to celebrate xmas carefully.
Would you keep me inform as to how your heart disease progresses, or not.
Hope your new diet has now settled down.
Someone once said extreme diet changes can upset the heart, slowly slowly might be the way forward?


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## Ditto (Dec 19, 2016)

It's palm size for protein or if weighing it's 4ounces at lunch-time and 7ounces at dinner. If having an egg for breakfast it's 1 egg, if at lunchtime or dinner it's 2 eggs. That's what I think anyway from what I've learnt over the years starting with Weight Watchers in 1975.


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## Martin Canty (Dec 19, 2016)

It's easy to get too much protein on LCHF, that's why I bulk up on the veggies....


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## gkhchay (Dec 20, 2016)

Martin Canty said:


> It's easy to get too much protein on LCHF, that's why I bulk up on the veggies....



Very true Martin. I make it rule for myself - a portion of protein to 2 portions of veggies drenched in natural fats - very often melted cheese and butter plus home made mayo. If I still feel hungry, a can of coconut cream will do the trick!


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## Ditto (Dec 20, 2016)

I would like to do that gkhchay but I worry about my liver. It's dicky at times.


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