# Figures show rise in EU nationals exiting public sector after Brexit vote



## Northerner (Nov 26, 2018)

The number of EU nationals leaving jobs at public bodies such as hospital trusts and universities rose by an estimated 15% between 2016 and 2017, according to freedom of information data assembled by a pro second referendum group.

Best for Britain collected data from 82 hospital trusts and 116 universities, among other public bodies, and argues that the figures show public services are being put under extra pressure as a result of the 2016 referendum.

The hospital trusts, all in England, who responded to the freedom of information requests recorded a 22% increase in the number of EU nationals leaving their jobs according to the figures supplied, a “damning indictment” of the Brexit result according to one leading doctor.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...onals-exiting-public-sector-after-brexit-vote


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## mikeyB (Nov 26, 2018)

They don’t need to, because one of the concessions the the Maybot has had to swallow is that EU citizens are to be treated as they already are, in exchange for the same to happen for expats living in Europe.


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## Bruce Stephens (Nov 26, 2018)

mikeyB said:


> They don’t need to, because one of the concessions the the Maybot has had to swallow is that EU citizens are to be treated as they already are, in exchange for the same to happen for expats living in Europe.



They don't need to, and (largely) nobody wants them to, but I can see why they might want to. The UK's a less attractive place to be living for many.


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## Northerner (Nov 26, 2018)

mikeyB said:


> They don’t need to, because one of the concessions the the Maybot has had to swallow is that EU citizens are to be treated as they already are, in exchange for the same to happen for expats living in Europe.


Indeed. However, I was listening to a discussion the other day in which a hospital guy (official title ) was saying that, although the EU nationals are still able to come, they simply aren't applying because of the perceived change in attitude towards them since the vote. Like the bloke said, 'I can't go round and knock on their doors and ask them to apply'  Also, with the fall in the £ then the money is less of a pull.

Edit: Snap, @Bruce Stephens !


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## mikeyB (Nov 26, 2018)

England doesn’t want them, for some reason. It’s only in England that the perceived attitude has changed, not in Scotland. Scotland needs immigrants because of an ageing population and not breeding like rabbits like they used to. Indeed, Scotland has always welcomed folk who want to live there. 

It’s because of Scotlands needs being completely ignored in all these talks that there will inevitably be another independence referendum. They are sick and tired of being ignored by Westminster.


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## Northerner (Nov 26, 2018)

mikeyB said:


> England doesn’t want them, for some reason. It’s only in England that the perceived attitude has changed, not in Scotland. Scotland needs immigrants because of an ageing population and not breeding like rabbits like they used to. Indeed, Scotland has always welcomed folk who want to live there.
> 
> It’s because of Scotlands needs being completely ignored in all these talks that there will inevitably be another independence referendum. They are sick and tired of being ignored by Westminster.


I'm extremely irritated by the PM's assertion that people voted in the Referendum 'to end freedom of movement'. There is no evidence of this as far as I can see, and rather than ending it (TM's personal crusade ever since her time - and failure - in the Home Office) the government ought to be informing people of the advantages and exploding the myths


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## Bruce Stephens (Nov 26, 2018)

Northerner said:


> I'm extremely irritated by the PM's assertion that people voted in the Referendum 'to end freedom of movement'. There is no evidence of this as far as I can see,



I did some web searches and found some poll that suggested 92% of people preferring leave wanted to limit migration, but I can't seem to find it now.

I'm inclined to think she may well be not completely wrong, though I think maybe she's thinking as much about Conservative party members (who are older and more brexity than the population as a whole).

It does look like overall the opinion's about balanced. (It's possible I've picked skewsd polls, of course, but I didn't do so deliberately.) For example https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44532288 and https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questio...in-the-single-market-or-ending-free-movement/. That second one especially puts it at about equal for single market and limiting free movement.


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## Northerner (Nov 26, 2018)

Bruce Stephens said:


> I did some web searches and found some poll that suggested 92% of people preferring leave wanted to limit migration, but I can't seem to find it now.


The thing is though, when people think of migration, are they specifically thinking of EU migrants? The government has had full control over migrants from outside the EU and failed to 'tackle' it. Nigel Farage had a poster showing Syrians - the last time I looked, Syria was not in the EU. Scapegoating, I'm afraid, and it's going to come back and bite us in so many areas


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## mikeyB (Nov 27, 2018)

Here’s a nightmare for you. Scotland becomes independent, and is joined to the EU, Northern Ireland joins Eire in a Federal Union, stays in the EU. Just in time car manufacturers move to Scotland. Bank headquarters move to Scotland and Ireland. There is migration from England to Scotland and Ireland for work, because most industry can’t afford to function in England. A bridge is built from Scotland to Ireland, creating a Celtic powerhouse. And there will be an NHS to match anything in the world on the tax income. And with 100% renewable energy supplies. 

Fantasy? No more than the Brexiteers sunny future away from the EU, and just as possible. A deal good for business Mrs May? My arse.


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## PhoebeC (Nov 28, 2018)

The IR35 changes that came into place in April 2017 had a massive impact on Public sector workers. I think this will have resulted in less EU and other migrant workers, there isn't any official published research on this, as HMRC obviously want the results from the change to be in their favour.
As the public sector body now holds the responsibility for the costs and any penalties most have applied the rules to all contracted workers, and are now paying them less. Who wants to work in a role that now pays less, and where you feel less welcomed.

We have been portrayed as racist against the other EU nations, I wouldnt work in a job that I thought I was already disadvantaged in.

Also the economy will take a hit, and for who knows how long. That has also had an impact. I don't want to live in a weakened environment, and I live here


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## Bronco Billy (Nov 28, 2018)

As someone who lives in a town that has been damaged by freedom of movement, the sooner it ends, the better. Immigration is its own recruitment agency; if we import a quarter of a million people every year, of course we will need to recruit (some would say steal) medical staff from other countries.

As for your ‘nightmare’ scenario, mikeyB, it won’t come close to becoming reality. London is and will remain a major world financial centre. Independent analysis has shown that Scotland would already be in dire financial straits had they voted to become independent in 2014. The EU would only allow Scotland to become a member if they agree to certain demands. One of these would be joining the Euro, making it a very unattractive place for business looking to trade with then world. England gives over £50 billion to the other parts of the UK every year. This would no longer happen under your scenario, so our public services would benefit immediately. There is no majority in Northern Ireland to join the Republic. In short, your nightmare vision for England is the fantasy you accuse Brexiteers of having. Quite the reverse, England has a lot to gain by becoming independent herself.


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## Bruce Stephens (Nov 29, 2018)

Bronco Billy said:


> Immigration is its own recruitment agency; if we import a quarter of a million people every year, of course we will need to recruit (some would say steal) medical staff from other countries.



We have (only!) about 2.2 doctors per 1000 people. We have about 3.8 million EU citizens living here. So we'd need about 8360 doctors just to cover those people. There's 10636 EU (that is, non-UK EU) doctors working in the NHS. (All those are figures from 2017, I think.) So slightly less than 10% (9.7%) of doctors are from the EU. (More of Asian nationality, at 12%.)

Proportions of other NHS staff are lower than that (doctors are the highest, by the looks of it). I'm guessing EU citizens in the UK are relatively younger and healthier than native born citizens (retiring in Spain if you're a UK person is likely more attractive than vice versa) so I'd guess they use the NHS less, on average. (Though they'll presumably need to be registered with a GP practice.)

So I think I'm not persuaded by that argument. We should certainly be training more of our own medical staff (and we should have been doing so for decades), but belonging to the EU just doesn't seem that bad to me; I think if and when our politicians have more complete power again, I'm sure they'll continue to screw things up.


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## mikeyB (Nov 29, 2018)

Bronco Billy said:


> As someone who lives in a town that has been damaged by freedom of movement, the sooner it ends, the better. Immigration is its own recruitment agency; if we import a quarter of a million people every year, of course we will need to recruit (some would say steal) medical staff from other countries.
> 
> As for your ‘nightmare’ scenario, mikeyB, it won’t come close to becoming reality. London is and will remain a major world financial centre. Independent analysis has shown that Scotland would already be in dire financial straits had they voted to become independent in 2014. The EU would only allow Scotland to become a member if they agree to certain demands. One of these would be joining the Euro, making it a very unattractive place for business looking to trade with then world. England gives over £50 billion to the other parts of the UK every year. This would no longer happen under your scenario, so our public services would benefit immediately. There is no majority in Northern Ireland to join the Republic. In short, your nightmare vision for England is the fantasy you accuse Brexiteers of having. Quite the reverse, England has a lot to gain by becoming independent herself.


Well, you can carry on believing that if you like. That £50bn that the other countries in the UK get is almost  the same as all the tax take from those countries on VAT, Fuel tax, and such though not income tax, which is a very small part of the tax burden. It wouldn’t be money to spend on the NHS, because it will no longer exist. But that’s all another argument. Finland, with much the same population gets by. So does Norway and Ireland with smaller populations. You’ve got wonder, if what you say is true, why the UK government is so resistant to Scottish independence. It’s not, for sure, anything to do with caring about Scotland.


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## SadhbhFiadh (Nov 30, 2018)

Send your immigrants to Scotland. They are welcome and valued.


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## Northerner (Nov 30, 2018)

SadhbhFiadh said:


> Send your immigrants to Scotland. They are welcome and valued.


They're welcome and valued here too, except by this flipping government who have scapegoated them for so long they now believe their own propaganda and cite immigration as a primary reason for the leave vote


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## Madeline (Dec 3, 2018)

We are seriously considering a move to Glasgow for its superb new hospital. 

I live near Boston. Nuff said re Brexit and immigration. The only thing I would add is Boston hospital would fall apart without it’s amazing Eastern European staff. When I was in ITU for 3 weeks, it was pretty much entirely staffed by them and nurses from the Indian subcontinent, and they were outstanding.


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## mikeyB (Dec 3, 2018)

Aye, it’s a great place, the QEUH.  You can see it for miles around. Known across the west of Scotland as the Deathstar. I like it because everyone gets a single room with en suite, TV, and WiFi, but then I’m a slob. And most of the nurses are local. They pay nurses more in Scotland, and there are still bursaries for student nurses.

Beware, moving from Boston to Scotland. Those big things you can see are hills and mountains


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## Madeline (Dec 3, 2018)

Hahaha I live on the Wolds, we have hills here. LOVE Scotland, lots of friends up Glasgow way, I’d move tomorrow if I could, but I can’t until Small has started uni.


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## mikeyB (Dec 3, 2018)

Do it before, and get Small into a Scottish Uni. No tuition fees. No student debt, or, translated, less parental debt.


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## Madeline (Dec 3, 2018)

Unfortunately she wants to do Medicine and as she’s going via Medical Sciences she isn’t eligible for any of the Scottish unis. Believe me, I’ve looked into it


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## trophywench (Dec 4, 2018)

Mmmmmm - I seriously worry about the future of our Unis.  I mean traditionally, as far back as anyone alive now can remember, there's for instance been shedloads of research done in Unis and a lot of the groundwork has formed an integral part of student's degree courses when it hasn't been a novel thing that nobody knew diddly squat about.  By now, of course, a lot of that work has been overtaken by newer discoveries and has been replaced by the latest.

However, if funding and collaboration becomes diluted - where will the PhD students get the new stuff to research from, in order to keep the lower echelons supplied with the latest knowledge?


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## mikeyB (Dec 4, 2018)

I did my BSc in medical sciences at St Andrews. In those days, the clinical medicine continued at Manchester. Nowadays it’s more often Dundee, though  I think then as now you can go anywhere you choose if they’ll take you. Most stay in Scotland now because of the absence of tuition fees.


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## Madeline (Dec 4, 2018)

This is an A level alternative - it’s quite new and unfortunately not all unis accept it.


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