# Politicians May Be Guilty of 'Social Murder' in COVID Response



## Northerner (Feb 9, 2021)

Should anybody be blamed and punished for 2.2 million COVID-related deaths in the world? 

An editorial in an influential British medical journal says politicians who didn't respond aggressively enough to control the coronavirus pandemic should be held responsible for those deaths, which the editorial says could be classified as "social murder." 

"Politicians must be held to account by legal and electoral means, indeed by any national and international constitutional means necessary," wrote Kamran Abbasi, MD, the executive editor of _BMJ_. 

Abbasi writes that the phrase "social murder" was coined by philosopher Friedrich Engels to describe the conditions created by privileged classes in 19th century England that "inevitably led to premature and ‘unnatural' death among the poorest classes."

Today, the phrase may describe "the lack of political attention to social determinants and inequities that exacerbate the pandemic," he writes.

"When politicians and experts say that they are willing to allow tens of thousands of premature deaths for the sake of population immunity or in the hope of propping up the economy, is that not premeditated and reckless indifference to human life?"









						Politicians May Be Guilty of 'Social Murder' in COVID Response
					

An editorial in an influential British medical journal says politicians who didn't respond aggressively enough to control the coronavirus pandemic should be held responsible for those deaths.



					www.medscape.com


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## mikeydt1 (Feb 9, 2021)

the trouble is they keep getting away with it.  just look at how Ian Smith treated the sick and disabled and the deaths which resulted from the poor treatment the guy was never brought to justice and is still allowed to be an MP with a nice cosy mansion to go with it.


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## Northerner (Feb 9, 2021)

mikeydt1 said:


> the trouble is they keep getting away with it.  just look at how Ian Smith treated the sick and disabled and the deaths which resulted from the poor treatment the guy was never brought to justice and is still allowed to be an MP with a nice cosy mansion to go with it.


Indeed  We can see people forgetting already because the success of the vaccine rollout seems to be eclipsing the fact that gross mismanagement of the pandemic has resulted in thousands of avoidable deaths. Even now, nearly 12 months on, those most likely to be at risk, and least capable of self-isolating either due to living arrangements or low-income (often both) are not being supported fully. Consequently, many have continued to spread the virus, keeping infection levels high  Untested people into care homes, almost useless test, track and isolate system, failure of ANYONE in government to take responsibility for anything, undermining public trust etc. etc. Mistakes were always bound to have been made, but repeating mistakes is unforgiveable. I think one of the most unfathomable things for me to understand is why no-one, at ANY point, appears to have thought to prepare a contingency plan for any of the likely scenarios the country might face. Why do thousands of school children still not have devices to study on? Why do we still not have any contracts with hotel chains for isolation purposes as though it's suddenly such a big surprise we might need to do what other nations have done for months? Always reacting, and therefore always too late and people suffer as a consequence 

Rant over


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## Contused (Feb 9, 2021)

mikeydt1 said:


> <snip> just look at how Ian Smith treated the sick and disabled and the deaths which resulted… <snip>


Sir Iain Duncan Smith, presumably?


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## Northerner (Feb 9, 2021)

Contused said:


> Sir Iain Duncan Smith, presumably?


Took me a moment or two to register that!


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## grovesy (Feb 9, 2021)

I vaguely recall reading somewhere that he used to be a plain Smith.


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## Robin (Feb 9, 2021)

grovesy said:


> I vaguely recall reading somewhere that he used to be a plain Smith.


No, further back than that, his father's surname was Duncan Smith, but his paternal grandparents were a Smith and a née Duncan. (According to wikipedia anyway!).
Surprising. That was in 1914. I thought it was a more modern phenomenon to double-barrel both parents' surnames.


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## Drummer (Feb 9, 2021)

I suspect, though, that at the times when there would have been most benefit from a really strict lockdown and isolation, quarantine, there would have been riots.
It is all very well looking back and calling decisions wrong, but hindsight is just that.


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## Bruce Stephens (Feb 9, 2021)

Drummer said:


> I suspect, though, that at the times when there would have been most benefit from a really strict lockdown and isolation, quarantine, there would have been riots.


Maybe, but the government could easily have acted a week or two earlier. (Polling suggests the public is generally in favour of more restrictions rather than less.) And for isolation, the government ought to support it properly and then there's much less of a problem with the public. (Again, analysis suggests that people largely want to isolate, but feel unable.)


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## grovesy (Feb 9, 2021)

Robin said:


> No, further back than that, his father's surname was Duncan Smith, but his paternal grandparents were a Smith and a née Duncan. (According to wikipedia anyway!).
> Surprising. That was in 1914. I thought it was a more modern phenomenon to double-barrel both parents' surnames.


Oh, I never looked into it , I just seen it been referenced somewhere.


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## Docb (Feb 9, 2021)

If politicians are guilty of social murder then what are the people who elected them guilty of?


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## grovesy (Feb 9, 2021)

I am thinking it is more unlikely, and if there is one this lot will be well gone!


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## trophywench (Feb 10, 2021)

Drummer said:


> I suspect, though, that at the times when there would have been most benefit from a really strict lockdown and isolation, quarantine, there would have been riots.
> It is all very well looking back and calling decisions wrong, but hindsight is just that.


No, common for a son, especially the eldest son, to also be given his mother's maiden name.  Dunno if dad's sister had 2 christian names, but anyway just christian name(s) followed by granddad's surname whereas dad, was Alfred William Postlethwaite surname, as paternal grandma was a Postlethwaite.

He was born in either 1915 or 16, but that had been the case for generations previously and I don't think it ever fell by the wayside - has it?


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## Sally71 (Feb 10, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> Anitram,
> 
> Very, very good point. There has been many doctors with contrary opinions about how the pandemic has been dealt with, but unfortunately many are gagged by the government who have made it clear to them that no NHS staff can discuss what goes on in hosptials with the public or media.
> 
> From the little bit I do understand about oaths. Doctors sign a "do no harm" oath when they qualify. How many of them can really stand by that oath now?


Did they have any choice though?  When surrounded by sick and dying people and with not enough time/people/resources to save them all then impossible choices have to be made, and the most immediately life threatening cases are usually going to get priority. I'm sure no doctor ever wants to cancel or delay any treatments but if many urgent cases come in and there aren’t enough doctors to treat them all what choice do they have? They aren’t choosing to do harm!


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## Northerner (Feb 10, 2021)

Drummer said:


> I suspect, though, that at the times when there would have been most benefit from a really strict lockdown and isolation, quarantine, there would have been riots.
> It is all very well looking back and calling decisions wrong, but hindsight is just that.


My point was that they have not used past experiences to inform future ones. Repeating the same mistakes and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity  And the public were very compliant with the first lockdown, people recognised the need to protect themselves and their families - even now it's only a vocal minority who do not see this 'greater good'. If we hadn't had restrictions hundreds of thousands more would have died


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## Robin (Feb 10, 2021)

trophywench said:


> No, common for a son, especially the eldest son, to also be given his mother's maiden name.  Dunno if dad's sister had 2 christian names, but anyway just christian name(s) followed by granddad's surname whereas dad, was Alfred William Postlethwaite surname, as paternal grandma was a Postlethwaite.
> 
> He was born in either 1915 or 16, but that had been the case for generations previously and I don't think it ever fell by the wayside - has it?


It was certainly common for the eldest to be given his mother’s maiden name as a middle name, but it wasn’t used publicly as part of the surname, turning it into a double barrel, surely? The child of Mr. Smith and Mrs. Smith, neé Jones would be John Jones Smith, but he’d be plain John Smith on the school register.


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## Bruce Stephens (Feb 10, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> Which sick and dying people are you refering to?











						This is what it's like to be an intensive care unit nurse right now
					

Sometimes we come in to find a bed empty, and I don’t know if it’s because we’ve succeeded or we’ve failed




					www.theguardian.com


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## Robin (Feb 10, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> Hi Bruce
> 
> Is that relevant to last March?


This one below is from last April. I certainly remember several hospitals at the time reporting they were critically low on oxygen flow from their centralised pipe system because of the sheer number of patients they had who required oxygen. It’s not just the physical number of beds, or wards, or even staff (though they were hard pressed for staff when doctors and nurses were falling sick with covid) that causes a crisis, but it’s also all the peripherals needed to treat extra patients.








						Coronavirus: London hospital almost runs out of oxygen for Covid-19 patients
					

Incident at major hospital raises fears over pressure on supplies during pandemic




					www.theguardian.com


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## Drummer (Feb 10, 2021)

One thing which was criminal in my mind is that the care homes were 'robbed' of their usual supplies of equipment, taken for the NFS, so they saw a spread of the virus around the care homes and to the staff - in my area of the country there are lots of care homes and some of them have closed because there were too few people there, so they have amalgamated with others to try to stay viable.


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## trophywench (Feb 14, 2021)

I have to say, last year there were various reports of DNRs having been added to different patient's medical records without any consultation whatever with their next of kin or even informing the NOK.

I *thought* this had been nipped in the bud - but not having had anyone close in hospital recently (for anything) admit that I do not actually *know* for a fact.


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## everydayupsanddowns (Feb 15, 2021)

I do think the UK has handled the pandemic badly in many respects. Late to act initially, muddled and disorganised, and then ’eat out to infect out’ as a sticking plaster to those wailing about the economy.

Our disproportionate death toll is a tragedy, and each of those is a real person with real family and relationships.

Countries that locked down harder and with more intention (Aus, NZ) seem to have done so much better.

I’m not sure that accountability is likely I’m afraid. And I suspect the  findings of any lengthy and expensive enquiry will be largely ignored


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## trophywench (Feb 15, 2021)

Well sorry EDUAD - Boris HAS learned and the fact that he and the Cabinet will NOT be pressed on dates for lockdown easing despite the 64 (who don't seem to be all 100% engaged in volunteering to assist NHS efforts locally to them, if they were they'd surely ensure we all know what they've been doing to help!) pressing them to do so, is surely some proof of this?


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## grovesy (Feb 15, 2021)

I don't think they have learned , I think they are betting on the Vaccine being the Cavalry!


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## Ljc (Feb 15, 2021)

I saw Boris on tv today, he looked ill.

Sadly I don’t think they have learned , I too think they are relying an the vaccines.  I know no one country has go it right, but some have handled it so much better than our lot have, IMO our lot should have watched other countries closely and adopted what worked best. 

I am not coming out of isolation for around 3 weeks after my second jab ( dads not had his first one yet, though I’ve told his G.P. practice many many times  that he he housebound and I am his carer , no one has taken any notice, yet) even then we will be very careful.


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## Bruce Stephens (Feb 15, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> That said, death rates have been no worse in 2020 (covid19 pandemic) than they were in say 2000 or any year before that since 1840.


The article you link to seems to be saying pretty much the opposite: that 2020 really was a pretty bad year.


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## Bruce Stephens (Feb 15, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> No worse than in 2000 or any year before that though?


OK, yes, there is that one measure: "Fewer people dying per 1,000 than in 2003, and pretty much any year before."

But that's crude mortality (we don't expect just fewer deaths per 1,000 than happened in 1900). That's "been falling for most of the 20th and 21st century as medical science has advanced and people have lived longer". Excess deaths seems to me a better metric, and that looks pretty bad for 2020. (Not the worst ever, but pretty bad.)


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## Bruce Stephens (Feb 15, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> And also, as the population is ever increasing, naturally more deaths and excess deaths are expected.


Which is why they count it relative to the population size. Excess deaths (again, adjusted for population size) seems more useful to me because it takes account of improvements over time. (Probably also not ideal because our population is skewing older which'll presumably cause excess deaths to increase.)

Regardless, if the ONS likes excess deaths in this context I'm inclined to go with that. They'll have thought much more about this than most have, and vastly more than I have.


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## everydayupsanddowns (Feb 15, 2021)

From what I have heard, excess deaths is a better and more informative statistic.

How many people have died in excess of what would be expected in a ‘regular’ recent year.


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## Bruce Stephens (Feb 15, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> The Sky video shows that the number of death in 2020 was similar to that in 1918 WW1 with 600,000 deaths. But the population has gone up by 50% since then. From 40,000,000 to over 60,000,000.


It then goes on to show that adjusted for population, which as you say doesn't look so bad, but explains that expected lifetimes had improved over the past couple of centuries, and so really what you want is to look how deaths change compared to recent years. (Excess deaths, in other words.) And shows a graph showing that (adjusted for age distribution, I think) suggesting that (up to that time) 2020's been about as bad as 1918.

(It seems entirely possible that it would be silly to adjust excess deaths for population size. As I said, ONS have vastly more expertise in thinking about this than I have.)


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## Eddy Edson (Feb 15, 2021)

everydayupsanddowns said:


> I do think the UK has handled the pandemic badly in many respects. Late to act initially, muddled and disorganised, and then ’eat out to infect out’ as a sticking plaster to those wailing about the economy.
> 
> Our disproportionate death toll is a tragedy, and each of those is a real person with real family and relationships.
> 
> ...



Maybe because I'm an outsider, my take is a little different than most of the ones I see around the place. I really think UK medical/science authorities have to wear a large part of the blame.  Recall how at the start of the epidemic IC and other modellers presented their future vision of cycles of lockdowns and easings. Prophecy fulfilled! At no time up until the present have most of them presented anything other than miserable drab alternatives which never, ever contemplated anything like local elimination. 

And it was just an article of IC-inspired faith that border closure doesn't work - actually a huge article of faith; it's excrutiating to watch various experts gritting their teeth and walking that back in baby steps now. 

We almost got caught up in this wrongness & it's been fascinating to watch how we escaped (so far).  The most fundamental thing has been overwhelming public pressure. Once we had closed the borders and it became evident that local elimnination is in fact possible (_pace_ all the UK experts) there was no way the public was going to settle for anything less, and in some cases political and medical authorities have had to scramble to catch up witjh the public.

Zero COVID is a simple message, in fact achievable, hugely motivating and politically a sure-fire winner. Mediocre state governments have ridiculouly high approval ratings here; even the Trumnp-humping god-bothering contemptible hack PM gets a boost, despite having played no positive role in anything.


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## nonethewiser (Feb 16, 2021)

Northerner said:


> Abbasi writes that the phrase "social murder" was coined by philosopher Friedrich Engels to describe the conditions created by privileged classes in 19th century England that "inevitably led to premature and ‘unnatural' death among the poorest classes."



Has there ever been even one politician found guilty of social murder, look at cruel welfare cuts that IDS made under Cameron's govn, how many took their own life as consequence.

After covid public enquiry will take place but no individual will be made accountable, that's for sure.


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## mikeyB (Feb 17, 2021)

Maybe no individual will be held accountable, @nonethewiser, but the government may well be.


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## trophywench (Feb 18, 2021)

Well Winston Churchill was long considered to be a warmonger by all sorts of individuals around at that time, eg Pete's mom and my dad.  (who never knew each other whatever, utterly different experiences of the war too)  And the population soon replaced his Govt with a Labour one after the War.  But we were discussing this only the other night, and Aneurin Bevan and the formation of the NHS, a move not at all popular with GPs generally at the time.  Nye was asked about this in Parliament cos they stopped objecting quite so much and apparently said he'd sorted them out 'by stuffing their mouths with money' to shut them up.

Anyway Pete pointed out that the encumbent Govt must have done a lot of work prior to the NHS being formed, before losing the election.  No idea of course who did what when cos we haven't delved that deeply into the history.

And isn't it easy to have 20/20 vision in hindsight ........


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