# Trump's call to ban Moslems from the US



## robert@fm (Dec 8, 2015)

Sieg heil! 

Strangely enough, I don't recall the people who attended the recent Birthday Meet in Brum saying anything about the hordes of Islamic jihadists they had to fight their way through to get there, if Trump is to be believed.


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## Northerner (Dec 8, 2015)

I looked up the word 'demagogue', describes him to a 'T' - the man is an idiot, and it is scary that so many of his countrymen hang on his every word  


demagogue
ˈdɛməɡɒɡ/
_noun_

a political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.


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## robert@fm (Dec 8, 2015)

I have reason to suspect that my main carer Ahmed is a Moslem (I've never asked as I don't think it would be polite). I also once knew a guy called Abdul (an Arabic name roughly cognate to "Theodore") who was definitely a Moslem (he told me). Those two were (are, in the first case) amongst the most pleasant people I have ever known. 

As I have said before (in response to other prejudiced American idiots), blaming all Moslems for ISIS is like blaming all Christians for the IRA.


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## AlisonM (Dec 8, 2015)

I reckon rational argument is beyond him. And, will he ever give a sensible answer to a sensible question? No. He may be very clever when it comes to making money but in all other respects he's an idiot. And what's with this third person nonsense? It seems to me that he's a figment of his own imagination and trying to market himself as a 'product'. He scares me.


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## KookyCat (Dec 9, 2015)

I'm going to state very clearly that I in no way support anything Donald Trump says, that's important, but he's actually very clever I think and playing much the same game as the terrorists he is talking about (I prefer not to call them by any name associated to any religion because I don't believe they have any real connection to it).  People are fed up with politicians manipulating them, the days of the political spin machine are dying a death.  There's a thirst for truth.  Problem is people can't identify truth very well, if they could, the spin machines would never have been born in the first place.  They mistake passion for truth.  He's saying what a lot of people are thinking, because despite it all we're all just simple creatures who dislike and distrust anything we don't understand.  So he makes himself the maverick, the refreshing breath of truth.  Grooming works because they tell enough of the truth to make it plausible, then go for the basic human desire to connect, they target those who are disconnected and promise to make it better.  the terrorists ally themselves to a religion to identify themselves, they make that religion the enemy to perpetuate the cycle of exclusion and keep their pool of supporters alive.  They feed off this sort of reaction, but this reaction is a normal human behaviour.  It's just another form of manipulation, hiding behind the mask of truth, strategies to get people to support their political agenda.  The sad thing is, the people who are actually telling the truth go unheard.

I doubt he'll prosper in the end, he'll go too far to be palatable, but Boris Johnson is a brilliant example of inflammatory truth telling and he still remains in a position of power so who knows!


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## Northerner (Dec 9, 2015)

Agreed KC, he's appealing to ignorance, from a position of ignorance (of a different type - he knows what he is doing, but doesn't care about the consequences). Another US politician who has gained in popularity is Bernie Sanders, the Democrat, whose version of 'telling the truth' is much closer to the principled stance of Jeremy Corbyn - no spin, I believe this to be true and good and hope to persuade you from a position of honesty, not deceit


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## zuludog (Dec 9, 2015)

Here we see the dual standards of the liberal left, who are just as biased and intolerant in their own way as anyone else

When the journalists & cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo were murdered there were, quite rightly, protests, and a view that people should have freedom of speech & expression even if others were offended by their views
There have been other instances of journalists & politicians have been attacked or killed for criticising Islam, and these too have been condemned

Now Donald Trump has expressed his opinion and he is severely criticised, including calls to prosecute or ban him, yet many people agree with him
Tolerance, it seems, only works one way

But Mr Trump's critics are missing the point; there would be no need for him to make these comments if Muslims stopped killing people in the name of Islam


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## Northerner (Dec 9, 2015)

zuludog said:


> But Mr Trump's critics are missing the point; there would be no need for him to make these comments if Muslims stopped killing people in the name of Islam


The point is though, that these people are simply using Islam as a convenient label, they are not Muslims. You may as well say that I am, as a Yorkshireman, as guilty of offence as Peter Sutcliffe


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## Caroline (Dec 9, 2015)

the world is full of all sorts of people, the reality is there are good and bad all over the place. We shouldn't tar the good ones with the same brush as the bad ones. My little feller has a box of crayons in all sorts of shapes and colours, they live happily together...


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## Redkite (Dec 9, 2015)

There will always be people like Trump with extreme views, whether left wing or right wing.  What makes him so dangerous is the fact that he's rich enough to finance his own campaign and be answerable to nobody.  His supporters would argue that this is a virtue, ie he's too rich to be open to bribery.  God help us all if he gets elected as US president - Obama has been well-intentioned but hopelessly weak, but Trump does not have good intentions at all.


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## zuludog (Dec 9, 2015)

I'm sure that if you could talk to the terrorists they would reply in no uncertain terms that they most definitely are Muslims

The difference between a Yorkshireman and a Muslim is that the Koran advocates domination, intolerance and violence. It is an inherent part of Islam


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## Redkite (Dec 9, 2015)

zuludog said:


> Here we see the dual standards of the liberal left, who are just as biased and intolerant in their own way as anyone else
> 
> When the journalists & cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo were murdered there were, quite rightly, protests, and a view that people should have freedom of speech & expression even if others were offended by their views
> There have been other instances of journalists & politicians have been attacked or killed for criticising Islam, and these too have been condemned
> ...



Zuludog, you are right that there are dual standards when it comes to free speech.  Personally, I think some of the things that Charlie Hebdo came out with were needlessly offensive, however that does not make it right for people to resort to violence.  Trump's remarks are more sinister and dangerous because he's running for one of the most powerful positions in the world, and the utterances of the US president carry more significance and reach more people than a small french periodical.


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## Northerner (Dec 9, 2015)

Redkite said:


> There will always be people like Trump with extreme views, whether left wing or right wing.  What makes him so dangerous is the fact that he's rich enough to finance his own campaign and be answerable to nobody.  His supporters would argue that this is a virtue, ie he's too rich to be open to bribery.  God help us all if he gets elected as US president - Obama has been well-intentioned but hopelessly weak, but Trump does not have good intentions at all.


I don't think that Obama has been weak, necessarily, but he has been blocked by the House Republicans at every juncture, simply in order to block him - they even brought the country to the brink of financial ruin just to try and thwart his plans for better healthcare. I have some American friends on FB and some of their views are so extreme but I'm sure they don't even realise it (particularly regarding the gun debate). How Trump can suggest banning all Muslims based on one incident whilst ignoring the other 350+ mass shootings by white 'Christian' Americans beggars belief.  Bush was a calamity for America, heaven knows what would happen under President Trump


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## Redkite (Dec 9, 2015)

Northerner said:


> I don't think that Obama has been weak, necessarily, but he has been blocked by the House Republicans at every juncture, simply in order to block him - they even brought the country to the brink of financial ruin just to try and thwart his plans for better healthcare. I have some American friends on FB and some of their views are so extreme but I'm sure they don't even realise it (particularly regarding the gun debate). How Trump can suggest banning all Muslims based on one incident whilst ignoring the other 350+ mass shootings by white 'Christian' Americans beggars belief.  Bush was a calamity for America, heaven knows what would happen under President Trump



The gun issue in America is an impossible one.  They've got to the point where every time there's a massacre it just spurs more people to arm themselves for their own "protection".  They would say if only one or two members of the audience or door security staff at the Bataclan had been "carrying", the terrorists could have been stopped.  But of course the more guns are in general circulation, the more end up in evil hands.  I would hate to live there!  When I say Obama has been weak, I mean he managed to achieve very little of his promised domestic policies, though as you say this was largely due to Republican senators blocking everything.  However, he has also not provided strong leadership re US foreign policy.


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## robert@fm (Dec 9, 2015)

I remember being on a forum where a US gun nut (sorry, to my mind there's no other term) was spouting his usual rubbish about we in the UK having been "deprived" of our "right" to bear arms (he was too dumb to realise that the "right to bear arms" is a uniquely American phenomenon arising from its pioneer past, and that you can't be "deprived of" something which you never had to begin with) — and supported his view by linking to a statistics page on a pro-gun site, giving a comparison for one year (I think it was 1997). The page in question showed that in that year, the US population was only 4 times that of the UK, but the rate of gun crime was 20 times (in other words, proportionally 5 times as much per capita); and both the site owner and the guy who posted the link reckoned that this was a strong argument _against_ gun control, although I for one can't imagine a much stronger argument _for_ it.


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## Mark T (Dec 9, 2015)

zuludog said:


> The difference between a Yorkshireman and a Muslim is that the Koran advocates domination, intolerance and violence. It is an inherent part of Islam


Did you just copy that from somewhere or can you prove that?

Islam is an Abrahamic religion just like Christianity (referring to the fact it has common origins).  If your statement is true for Islam then probably true for the others also.


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## HOBIE (Dec 9, 2015)

zuludog said:


> I'm sure that if you could talk to the terrorists they would reply in no uncertain terms that they most definitely are Muslims
> 
> The difference between a Yorkshireman and a Muslim is that the Koran advocates domination, intolerance and violence. It is an inherent part of Islam


What makes people of any religion "KILL" people. The case of Lee Rigby. The unarmed soldier in a parade who was barbarically cut down.


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## AlisonM (Dec 9, 2015)

Large chunks of the Bible (old testament) and the Koran came from the Torah and the teachings of Judaism, in that at least they have a lot in common and are full of gems such as "if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out". You can find just about anything in them to justify any position you care to assume and, the Koran does indeed advocate the killing of non-muslims (I've read it). But the majority of muslims are as peace-loving as the rest of us, they just want to get on with their lives unmolested, just like the rest of us. Most of the deluded people who get dragged into these actions have no clue what their leaders actually want, if they even know who their real leaders are. For those in charge it's about power... money and power, that's it. The idiot with the gun, bomb or knife is a patsy, nothing more.

As for Mr Chump, he's dangerous as has been said, only because he's after the most powerful position in the world and God help us all if he succeeds.

Wee oops. That quote is from the New Testament, sorry.


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## Northerner (Dec 9, 2015)

Petition to keep him out of the UK now over 200,000 signatories 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-35049955


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## Cleo (Dec 9, 2015)

zuludog said:


> The difference between a Yorkshireman and a Muslim is that the Koran advocates domination, intolerance and violence. It is an inherent part of Islam



Please can you support your statement with a credible source ?


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## KookyCat (Dec 9, 2015)

I personally don't follow any religion but I am well schooled in the Christian religion, and if you chose to you can find a justification for hatred and violence.  Anti abortionist extremists for example often find a way to excuse their violence by quoting pages from the bible.  They might believe themselves to be Christian but 99% of those who are Christians would deny that they commit violence in their name.  The people committing these hideous acts can hide behind anything they like, but ultimately they are power hungry murderers.  We shouldn't give them any more status than that.  They speak for nobody other than themselves.  

They don't kill and torture because they're following a religious crusade, they do it because fear is a powerful weapon, and because they want control of the worlds resources, namely, lets cut to the chase oil.  We weren't remotely concerned about human rights violations in Iraq until the very real possibility that we'd become a third world nation in the not too distant future. We're all unconcerned about the destruction of the Palestinians because Israel is powerful.  The world is full of power hungry murderers.  I admit it is hard not to wonder what it is about the Islamic religions that seems to cause such conflict, but then doesn't all religion?  History is littered with violence in the name of religion, and I can't think of a single conflict that wasn't ultimately about power and money.  I hope the world comes to its senses very soon.


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## AlisonM (Dec 9, 2015)

Cleo said:


> Please can you support your statement with a credible source ?


Try reading the Koran: Sura 2:161 and 2:191


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## Cleo (Dec 9, 2015)

AlisonM said:


> Try reading the Koran: Sura 2:161 and 2:191



Have you read the bible ?

Do you see where I'm going with this ?

If not, KookyCat's response above provides an excellent summary, esp the first paragraph.


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## robert@fm (Dec 10, 2015)

You only need to read these passages from the Koran to realise that there's nothing 'Islamic' about the Islamic State 

(edit: one of the commenters has pointed out that this article is an example of the No True Scotsman fallacy. As AlisonM has shown (and as my reply has further shown), one can easily find Qu'ran passages for _or_ against the ISIS stance.)


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## robert@fm (Dec 10, 2015)

AlisonM said:


> Try reading the Koran: Sura 2:161



"Indeed, those who disbelieve and die while they are disbelievers - upon them will be the curse of Allah and of the angels and the people, all together,"



AlisonM said:


> and 2:191



"And kill them wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers."

But there's also Sura 2:256 —

"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing."

Which appears to contradict both the above.


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## Northerner (Dec 10, 2015)

For me, it's all moot. I don't personally believe that there has ever existed a man born who has known any more than me about the 'divine', they are ideas of social philosophy and control, in the main centuries out of touch. I don't believe there is any right or justification a person can claim to cause the suffering or death of another person.


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## KookyCat (Dec 10, 2015)

Northerner said:


> For me, it's all moot. I don't personally believe that there has ever existed a man born who has known any more than me about the 'divine', they are ideas of social philosophy and control, in the main centuries out of touch. I don't believe there is any right or justification a person can claim to cause the suffering or death of another person.



I concur.  I would defend anyone's right to follow whatever belief system they choose, so long as they recognise the rights of others to follow whatever belief system they choose.  The fact that I believe most organised religion is a mechanism for social control that has no relation to spiritual belief is my choice.  I would not berate anyone else for choosing a religion, nor would I presume to inflict my views on others.  You can find justification for violence in many places (it's human nature is an excellent one), not just religious texts.  Violence is about power and control, whether at the individual level or at the group level.  So I refuse to acknowledge that their behaviour is in any way related to their supposed religious beliefs.  They hide to cause division.  They are not hiding from me, I see them.


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## Mark T (Dec 10, 2015)

Personally I don't much care for any religion.  However, I respect the rights of others to believe.

However...  What a bunch of idiots the human race is!

How many wars, how many deaths just because they had a different religion or you didn't agree with them.  Whether it's Islam, Christianity or anything else I suspect there is plenty of evidence of atrocities throughout the millennia.  If there is actually a god (or any number or them) then I hope they feel grief and despair for what is done in their names.

Given time hopefully evolution will take care of us  (either by our race becoming something somewhat nicer, or being made extinct)

In one of the fantasy books I've been reading in answer to a question about atrocities committed by follows of a god, one of the characters explains that by committing such acts in the name of the god they are stealing the gods will and rendering that specific god unable to do anything and thus fated to oblivion...


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## FergusC (Dec 10, 2015)

All I will say is Trump is how my MiL refers to the emission of flatus, i.e. a fart!


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## Northerner (Dec 10, 2015)

FergusC said:


> All I will say is Trump is how my MiL refers to the emission of flatus, i.e. a fart!


Yes, that used to be my Dad's word for it!


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## Austin Mini (Dec 10, 2015)

Steady on now. Ive got three visits to Cairo next year for a job Im doing on their railway.


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## Highlander (Dec 10, 2015)

What about Trump as president of the US and Corbyn as Prime Minister - what a state the world would be in then!


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## HOBIE (Dec 10, 2015)

Highlander said:


> What about Trump as president of the US and Corbyn as Prime Minister - what a state the world would be in then!


 Now that would be trouble !


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## Andy HB (Dec 11, 2015)

HOBIE said:


> Now that would be trouble !


Yep, Trump would start WW3 and Mr Corbyn would refuse to join in the firework display! (actually, despite it being a futile gesture, I quite like Mr Corbyn for that!).

I too can never forsee a circumstance where nuclear weapons are justified.  Leave it to the three 'big boys' (USA, Russia and China).


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## robert@fm (Dec 11, 2015)

McDonald Fart now reckons UK politicians should be "grateful" for his bigoted stance.  He just doesn't get it...


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## ypauly (Dec 17, 2015)

Trump thinks he is playing a clever game, of that I am in no doubt, and he is obviously taking some wrong advice.  If he had used the term Jihadists, ISIS, daesh, Hamas, Hezbollah or some other name associated with Muslim terror groups most would have just sat and nodded in agreement. The problem is you can't differentiate between an Iraqi national service guard and an ISIS member and, therefore, would be an unworkable idea so he lumps all the people together in a group that they al, fit, Muslims.

Now we as fairly normal people living in a fairly well balanced society would immediately ask well how can you tell a Muslim from a none Muslim? but those people Trump is playing to won't as they are in general as bigoted as he is especially in the deep south where racial divisions and groups are still considered normal to the people that live there.


We can see he is not a nice man and is in fact a bit of a short sighted bigoted idiot that doesn't realise that half the world is Islamic and if he becomes leader he will need the respect of their leaders. 

The best thing we can do to make the rest of the world see and hear what an idiot he is, is to let him speak as if he speak loud enough for long enough he will not only run out of people to offend but also run out of people listening in order to be offended.


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## Northerner (Dec 17, 2015)

He also seems to believe that America owns the internet...  I never thought I would see the day when someone could make the other Republican candidates look like moderates!


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## ypauly (Dec 17, 2015)

He makes our Dave look real fluffy


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## Northerner (Dec 18, 2015)

*Poll: 30% of GOP voters support bombing Agrabah, the city from Aladdin*

Almost one-third of Republican primary voters would support bombing the fictional kingdom of Agrabah, according to a report released by Public Policy Polling on Friday.

More than 530 Republican primary voters were polled this week on their support for Republican candidates and foreign policy issues including banning Muslims from entering the US, Japanese internment camps from the second world war and bombing Agrabah, the kingdom from Disney’s animated classic, Aladdin.

In its poll, Public Policy Polling asked the 532 Republicans: “Would you support or oppose bombing Agrabah?” While 57% of responders said they were not sure, 30% said they supported bombing it. Only 13% opposed it.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ters-bomb-agrabah-disney-aladdin-donald-trump

You couldn't make it up!


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## robert@fm (Dec 22, 2015)

The Grauniad got 2,140 comments on that story before they finally closed it for comments!


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