# Rip off weasly companies



## Northerner (Jun 5, 2009)

These days so many companies are so completely devious and weasly with their hidden charges. Airlines are notorious for it, where a ?5 flight ends up costing you ?50. I've just been ripped off by BT - I hardly use my landline, but have it mainly for the broadband as I communicate mostly via email. So, this time round they've charged me ?7.50 for NOT making calls - calling it a charge for low usage, although nowhere on their website can I find what 'low usage' means! That's on top of the rental of course. I rarely spend ?7.50  on actual calls so I'm being charged more for not using their service. I can't afford to just chuck money away for no reason. I'm sure it's buried in their T&C somewhere, b**t**ds!


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## insulinaddict09 (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm with Sky and I think they studied at the same School For Rip-off Artists , they rob me blind 

every month .


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## Northerner (Jun 5, 2009)

Shame about that = I was just thinking of changing to Sky! But you can't win wherever you go these days. It's a bit like the way the MP's bump up their salaries by claiming expenses 'within the rules'...


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## angel30eyes (Jun 5, 2009)

We were with BT and got Sky who said change your telephone to us and save this, this and this, well all we ended up with was a bill from Sky and an identical one from BT, neither would back down and both said we owed them so had to pay two bills instead of one, needless to say i cancelled there and then with both


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## bev (Jun 5, 2009)

Northerner - why dont you just scrap it altogether and use your mobile? My dad is thinking of doing this as he rarely uses his landline as its too expensive for him. Bev


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## mikep1979 (Jun 5, 2009)

we had bt then moved to sky and found them both as bad as the other. moved to cable and didnt get a bill for the first 3 months then got a letter saying account was overdue. called them to say i hadnt got a bill and they looked and said well it isnt on the system as being sent so it is our fault and you have nothing to pay. they even knocked ?30 off my next bill for the shock and worry i had been through.


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## Einstein (Jun 5, 2009)

I was with Telewest (cable) years ago, they changed to Virgin, prices were always fair, always monthly, so you didn't have those three month shocks, prices have increased on something, decreased on other things.

Overall, I'm happy - was one of their first cable customers, thought the problems were bad then - nothing to what some ADSL customers still have, for the first time in 10 years I've had a fault, think my cable modem has gone to meet its maker, put a typetalk call into them this afternoon, engineer on his way tomorrow (SATURDAY) between 12 and 4 - simply explained I use the internet for 99% of my external comms due to deafness and they guy switched a few things and wham the guy is booked in tomorrow.

Always beel happy on upgrades and the fairness of their system, sure for new customers they want you to do 12 months, but for those of us who've been around a while they are always happy to move and bend the rules.

As for BT, they are over regulated, what any other telco can do, OFCOM will almost certainly forbid BT from doing - BT small business have a target from OFCOM of how many customers they have to LOOSE each year!! How crazy is that.

BT are expected to make the infrastructure investment in 21CN (21st Century Network) and everyone else can access it at capped rates.

I don't stand to defend BT, but on some very large contracts we've worked with BT and seen how they have tried to move mountains to get the deal, but had both legs and arms tied together.

The issue with moving to many of the third party telcos is stability, service and commercial, talk-talk seems to have an ever growing base of people who would get out of their contract tomorrow, if they knew how, and Tiscali customers had best keep their eyes open as they soon will be talk-talk, well, carphone whorehouse.

Don't have an answer, except 3G USB modems are superb and there are now wireless routers into which you can plug one or two of these modems and get some very respectible download and upload speeds - 7.2mb down 2mb up and its uncontended - I think the contract rate is as low as ?15 a month.


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## mikep1979 (Jun 5, 2009)

i have nothing but great awe for bt wholesale and corporate but bt consumer are total garbage. used bt corporate on a few occasions and they gave us everything we needed. however cable are so much better.


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## Einstein (Jun 5, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> i have nothing but great awe for bt wholesale and corporate but bt consumer are total garbage. used bt corporate on a few occasions and they gave us everything we needed. however cable are so much better.


 

Agreed on the consumer side, their hands are so tied. Corporate, they can play games 

But Virgins are best!


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## mikep1979 (Jun 5, 2009)

Einstein said:


> Agreed on the consumer side, their hands are so tied. Corporate, they can play games
> 
> But Virgins are best!



lol well i agree with ofcom being harsh on bt consumer, but also think they are right to be so as if they still had access to all the systems they used to then the market would be back to a one horse race again.

yeah cable are so much better


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## Einstein (Jun 5, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> lol well i agree with ofcom being harsh on bt consumer, but also think they are right to be so as if they still had access to all the systems they used to then the market would be back to a one horse race again.
> 
> yeah cable are so much better


 

I'm not so sure, because I think a lot of the guys who hijacked BT would have put their money into cable... and then there would have been a true second network and infrastructure.

My only gripe with Virgin is they won't let me have any static IP on my home cable, but will sell me a business service, slower and more expensive! Might for what I need throw an ADSL service in from one of my customers.


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## mikep1979 (Jun 5, 2009)

Einstein said:


> I'm not so sure, because I think a lot of the guys who hijacked BT would have put their money into cable... and then there would have been a true second network and infrastructure.
> 
> My only gripe with Virgin is they won't let me have any static IP on my home cable, but will sell me a business service, slower and more expensive! Might for what I need throw an ADSL service in from one of my customers.



yeah i know virgin wont allow consumer customers to have statics but bt will. you can actually buy your own personal static ip from certain companies and have it transfered to your virgin account. i also have my own domain name (even though i dont use it yet) just so no one else can have it hehehehehe

yeah i think it may have happened but also see it from ofcoms side as i have seen the old kingston communications sites and boy are they crap!!! (hull has 1 provider and it is all you can get). cable is defo the way forward as it gives you sppeds bt will only dream of even when 21cn is up and running due to the fact the corporate sector will take the majority of the bandwidth lol


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## Einstein (Jun 5, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> yeah i know virgin wont allow consumer customers to have statics but bt will. you can actually buy your own personal static ip from certain companies and have it transfered to your virgin account. i also have my own domain name (even though i dont use it yet) just so no one else can have it hehehehehe
> 
> yeah i think it may have happened but also see it from ofcoms side as i have seen the old kingston communications sites and boy are they crap!!! (hull has 1 provider and it is all you can get). cable is defo the way forward as it gives you sppeds bt will only dream of even when 21cn is up and running due to the fact the corporate sector will take the majority of the bandwidth lol


 
I'm just playing with DDNS which is what you are referring to, it maps your dynamic Virgin IP to the DNS and changes the DNS to reflect the IP, ok, but I want it for exchange - don't ask, need a mail server at home 

I thought Kingston went to the wall or were taken over - all said it worked well, small scale..

The upside of cable is, they went fibre end to end and co-ax into the home... hence all the work is done and they started moving TV not voice.


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## mikep1979 (Jun 5, 2009)

Einstein said:


> I'm just playing with DDNS which is what you are referring to, it maps your dynamic Virgin IP to the DNS and changes the DNS to reflect the IP, ok, but I want it for exchange - don't ask, need a mail server at home
> 
> I thought Kingston went to the wall or were taken over - all said it worked well, small scale..
> 
> The upside of cable is, they went fibre end to end and co-ax into the home... hence all the work is done and they started moving TV not voice.



lol well i wont ask why you need a home server 

nah kingston cant go bust as they get subsidies from the government to stay afloat plus as the monopoly in hull they are well the monopoly!!!! even virgin arnt allowed in.

yeah agree with the fibre route so much better for speeds etc and less to go wrong than with copper


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## Einstein (Jun 5, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> lol well i wont ask why you need a home server
> 
> nah kingston cant go bust as they get subsidies from the government to stay afloat plus as the monopoly in hull they are well the monopoly!!!! even virgin arnt allowed in.
> 
> yeah agree with the fibre route so much better for speeds etc and less to go wrong than with copper


 

Except one fibre holds a LOT of comms and one split fibre off a JCB bucket is BIG money and lots of systems/homes out... you need a lot of copper to wipe out half of what one fibre carries..


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## mikep1979 (Jun 5, 2009)

Einstein said:


> Except one fibre holds a LOT of comms and one split fibre off a JCB bucket is BIG money and lots of systems/homes out... you need a lot of copper to wipe out half of what one fibre carries..



lol you aint seen tocky on a friday when the kids strip it for booze money???? hehehehehe


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## Northerner (Jun 5, 2009)

Hi guys, well you lost me a while back, but it does sound as though Virgin could be better for me, or possibly mobile - not relly up on these things. I'm effectively paying ?15 to BT and ?15 to broadband isp at the moment just for a broadband service that never gives me more than 2 mbps, often below 1mbps. I'm not even getting any telly programmes for my ?30!

The funny thing is that I still get letters to 'The Occupier' from BT trying to persuade me to 'return' to them - the previous owners were with NTL (now Virgin?), but that was 8 years ago and I've always been with BT!


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## Einstein (Jun 5, 2009)

Northerner sir,

Good evening.

Well, there are a couple of options. Virgin (NTL and TeleWest combined, plus a bit) are actually the only option to BT in that they have their own networks.

If you have Sky and can get out of your contract that gives you something else to look at with Virgin. www.virginmedia.com just looked, base TV, 10mb broadband and phone with unlimited UK landline calls at weekends for ?25 a month or without the base TV for ?25 a month! Free installation as well!

The other option is the USB modem, here subscription is from ?15 a month, you have the cost of modem (up to ?100) and a router if you need more than one PC connected, or if you get better 3g upstairs than downstairs, but use your laptop in the lounge - these are again ?100 plus.

I also recall Virgin offering a free wireless router with their package.

There did used to be some issues on the old NTL network that weren't on the TeleWest one, I presume these are now sorted out and all is working well.

After 10 years of using Virgin, I've had my first fault today and they have said they will be here tomorrow between 12 and 4 to replace the modem - good service in my eyes!

Oh, they also go to 20mb now and are rolling out their 50mb service - not sure where ADSL is at getting much past 8mb on paper 

Hope that helps. You know where I am if you want to chat further.


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## insulinaddict09 (Jun 6, 2009)

Northerner said:


> Hi guys, well you lost me a while back, but it does sound as though Virgin could be better for me, or possibly mobile - not relly up on these things. I'm effectively paying ?15 to BT and ?15 to broadband isp at the moment just for a broadband service that never gives me more than 2 mbps, often below 1mbps. I'm not even getting any telly programmes for my ?30!
> 
> The funny thing is that I still get letters to 'The Occupier' from BT trying to persuade me to 'return' to them - the previous owners were with NTL (now Virgin?), but that was 8 years ago and I've always been with BT!



Hi Northerner , I may have misled you earlier , I am with Sky the internet is brilliant and very fast , my problem is with my phone line . If you are just interested in the internet side of things then go for it .


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## mikep1979 (Jun 6, 2009)

the problem is sky wont allow you to just have broadband with them. you need to have the tv with them to "qualify" for anything else.

plus it is no faster than bt as they are using bt equipment (exchanges etc) to run their own gear (well it is actually still bt gear that they lease off them)

virgin is a diferent story as they were introduced to give people a different route to go down. they use fibre optic cable instead of copper pair (copper pair has been used since the telephone was invented) so cable are able to offer super fast speeds (i haved just got mine transfered to the new house and have upgraded to 30mg bb with 50mg at no extra charge when it is rolled out here).

bt (and other telcos who use bt lines) are not able to feasably offer you faster than 8meg (some may get slightly more) due to the way the lines work. now it also depends on how far away from your local telephone exchange you live to and also they have a contention ratio (ammount of people able to use one copper line for bb at any one time which is currently at 50:1) so if your the one person who wants to get on line after the ratio is filled guess what!!! no dice.

cable is by far the best route to go down


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## Northerner (Jun 6, 2009)

Great info and advice David and Mike - thank you! Anne-marie, seems like you are a lone voice for Sky! I must admit, I've never liked the Sky ethos, and the whole business about fibre optic vs. BT's infrastructure would swing it for me. I suppose the only thing putting me off getting Virgin is that my future is uncertain, which may involve moving away, and I wouldn't want to be tied to a long contract at my current address - that's why the mobile option has appeal (but then it would cost a fortune to phone my dad who lives abroad!). I wish I had lots of money and a job!


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## mikep1979 (Jun 6, 2009)

Northerner said:


> Great info and advice David and Mike - thank you! Anne-marie, seems like you are a lone voice for Sky! I must admit, I've never liked the Sky ethos, and the whole business about fibre optic vs. BT's infrastructure would swing it for me. I suppose the only thing putting me off getting Virgin is that my future is uncertain, which may involve moving away, and I wouldn't want to be tied to a long contract at my current address - that's why the mobile option has appeal (but then it would cost a fortune to phone my dad who lives abroad!). I wish I had lots of money and a job!



the mobile bb providers as in o2, t mobile etc all do pay as you go mobile dongles (which plug into your laptop/computer) but they are quite expensive to buy where as if you get it on a 24 month contract with them it is usually free (i know o2 are doing a good deal at ?30 a month and you get a free laptop to).

only problems with mobile bb is that it can be unstable. if you were to just connect your mobile phone to the pc or laptop to access the internet it would cost you a fortune since they would charge you for the length of time you had been connected like a call but as a data charge it is usually a lot higher 

with cable they will move your service and usually free of charge.


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## insulinaddict09 (Jun 6, 2009)

Yes Mike good point about Sky and their tv package scam , you can just 

have the  basic package which is about ?14/?16 a month I think , then the 

internet is another ?10/?15 a month depending which one you have . My 

internet is unlimited .. I'm sure you have already guessed that 

I also always get 54Mbps .


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## Northerner (Jun 6, 2009)

insulinaddict09 said:


> ...I also always get 54Mbps .



Do you mean 5.4 mbps? I didn't think anyone in this country got 54, especially if using BT's equipment


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## insulinaddict09 (Jun 6, 2009)

Northerner said:


> Do you mean 5.4 mbps? I didn't think anyone in this country got 54, especially if using BT's equipment



ha ha ha yes sorry , but i am the typo queen


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## insulinaddict09 (Jun 6, 2009)

yes speed says 54.0 sorry , im blonde that is my only excuse


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## Northerner (Jun 6, 2009)

insulinaddict09 said:


> ha ha ha yes sorry , but i am the typo queen



Thought you might be from the future, and using the power of your 54 mbps to time-travel back to us through the interweb! Can you tell me - are we cured in the future?


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## Einstein (Jun 6, 2009)

Northerner said:


> Great info and advice David and Mike - thank you! Anne-marie, seems like you are a lone voice for Sky! I must admit, I've never liked the Sky ethos, and the whole business about fibre optic vs. BT's infrastructure would swing it for me. I suppose the only thing putting me off getting Virgin is that my future is uncertain, which may involve moving away, and I wouldn't want to be tied to a long contract at my current address - that's why the mobile option has appeal (but then it would cost a fortune to phone my dad who lives abroad!). I wish I had lots of money and a job!


 
I think Virgin are reasonably flexible on termination charges (unlike some) escpecially if you move, maybe not in the first three months. I typetalk a friend in Austrailia and an hours call is around ?1.50 with their international call add on. Of course with a reliable internet providor you could use skype, buy a skype compatible phone to use here and simply use skype as the carrier to the country where your dad lives then dial out locally to him from skype.

People I know do that a lot to the US.

Oh, don't know about Mike, but I certainly don't work for Virgin 

Mike, have you got cable at your new pad or have you had to go back to BT?


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## insulinaddict09 (Jun 6, 2009)

Northerner said:


> Thought you might be from the future, and using the power of your 54 mbps to time-travel back to us through the interweb! Can you tell me - are we cured in the future?



Are WE cured? hey I thought YOU already were Mister i can reduce my basal

and you lot can't !!!! Hey and I'm still waiting for you to come round and cook 

my tea for me ... as in another thread , you did mention your large collection

of cookery books


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## Einstein (Jun 6, 2009)

Northerner said:


> Thought you might be from the future, and using the power of your 54 mbps to time-travel back to us through the interweb! Can you tell me - are we cured in the future?


 
Don't forget the wireless element for 801.g is 54mbps... confuses a lot of people, as realistically it can be a fiddle identifying true internet speed - on a realtime basis accurately.


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## insulinaddict09 (Jun 6, 2009)

Einstein said:


> Don't forget the wireless element for 801.g is 54mbps... confuses a lot of people, as realistically it can be a fiddle identifying true internet speed - on a realtime basis accurately.



HUH??? Hello BLONDE !!!???? If i click on my wireless icon speed says 54.0 Mbps


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## Einstein (Jun 6, 2009)

insulinaddict09 said:


> HUH??? Hello BLONDE !!!???? If i click on my wireless icon speed says 54.0 Mbps


 
Not dumb at all Anne-marie, you have a router which bridges your internet connection to you home network, the speed of the two networks isn't related, if you have another PC at home and were transferring files between the two, then you'd not want to be restrictd to the speed of the internet while doing so.

So the router, routes the traffic depending on what the traffic is and matches the speed.

Your wireless is purely within your home network, hence my comment about internet speed monitoring being a little tricky to do.


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## insulinaddict09 (Jun 6, 2009)

Einstein said:


> Not dumb at all Anne-marie, you have a router which bridges your internet connection to you home network, the speed of the two networks isn't related, if you have another PC at home and were transferring files between the two, then you'd not want to be restrictd to the speed of the internet while doing so.
> 
> So the router, routes the traffic depending on what the traffic is and matches the speed.
> 
> Your wireless is purely within your home network, hence my comment about internet speed monitoring being a little tricky to do.



Oh ok I think I get it now .


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## Northerner (Jun 6, 2009)

insulinaddict09 said:


> Oh ok I think I get it now .



Yes, I think I do too! Here's a very simple/silly question. If I got Virgin what else do I need? My pc is currently connected to an adsl modem plugged into my BT socket in my bedroom. The Virgin connection would come into my front room downstairs (there's still a socket there from the previous owners). Would I  need a cable modem, wireless router, or what? And presumably I'd need a wireless receiver card in my pc (it's pretty old, and these things didn't come in home pc's at the time!)


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## Einstein (Jun 6, 2009)

Northerner said:


> Yes, I think I do too! Here's a very simple/silly question. If I got Virgin what else do I need? My pc is currently connected to an adsl modem plugged into my BT socket in my bedroom. The Virgin connection would come into my front room downstairs (there's still a socket there from the previous owners). Would I need a cable modem, wireless router, or what? And presumably I'd need a wireless receiver card in my pc (it's pretty old, and these things didn't come in home pc's at the time!)


 

The package Virgin are offering at the moment includes the cable modem (always will, it has an ethernet port and a USB, but not sure the USB is functional). In addition they provide a wireless router, which also has four ethernet ports.

So you could (assuming your PC has an ethernet port) plug in to this, set your network settings and away you go.

If you don't have an ethernet card, let me know and I'll post one to you.

Depending on what OS you're running you can add wireless to your PC via a USB wireless dongle - Virgin might be able to supply these as well.

I think thats about it really...

I've just ordered the 50mb upgrade, hoping installation on Thursday or Friday


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## insulinaddict09 (Jun 6, 2009)

Northerner said:


> Yes, I think I do too! Here's a very simple/silly question. If I got Virgin what else do I need? My pc is currently connected to an adsl modem plugged into my BT socket in my bedroom. The Virgin connection would come into my front room downstairs (there's still a socket there from the previous owners). Would I  need a cable modem, wireless router, or what? And presumably I'd need a wireless receiver card in my pc (it's pretty old, and these things didn't come in home pc's at the time!)



HELP!!! DAVID !! MIKE !! , Well a router I would think ? my wireless router is in my main socket in the lounge . If you trasfer to Virgin then they will supply 
the router for you. Yes you would need a card in to your pc in order to recieve the signal.


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## Einstein (Jun 6, 2009)

insulinaddict09 said:


> HELP!!! DAVID !! MIKE !! , Well a router I would think ? my wireless router is in my main socket in the lounge . If you trasfer to Virgin then they will supply
> the router for you. Yes you would need a card in to your pc in order to recieve the signal.


 
By jolly, the ladies getting the hang of all this - absolutely AM!


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## Northerner (Jun 6, 2009)

Einstein said:


> The package Virgin are offering at the moment includes the cable modem (always will, it has an ethernet port and a USB, but not sure the USB is functional). In addition they provide a wireless router, which also has four ethernet ports.
> 
> So you could (assuming your PC has an ethernet port) plug in to this, set your network settings and away you go.
> 
> ...



That's great David - I think I'm starting to understand it all now! I've worked in computers all my working life, but always proprietary systems connected by twinax originally, but then when I moved companies they were on networks but I had no access or training in the operations (much bigger companies). Thus, I always feel really stupid asking questions like this!

Haha! This discussion started because I was outraged at being charged the undeniably paltry sum of ?7.50!


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## Einstein (Jun 6, 2009)

Northerner said:


> That's great David - I think I'm starting to understand it all now! I've worked in computers all my working life, but always proprietary systems connected by twinax originally, but then when I moved companies they were on networks but I had no access or training in the operations (much bigger companies). Thus, I always feel really stupid asking questions like this!
> 
> Haha! This discussion started because I was outraged at being charged the undeniably paltry sum of ?7.50!


 
Life is always an educification isn't it? 

If you have an option to switch supplier and can get a better overall service and pricing, then go for it. As I say, my experience of telewest and now virgin is that they system is stable and works.

Others may have different opinions, but Mike seems to share the same experiences.

Enjoy!


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## insulinaddict09 (Jun 6, 2009)

insulinaddict09 said:


> Oh ok I think I get it now .





Einstein said:


> By jolly, the ladies getting the hang of all this - absolutely AM!



Woo I am shaking off the dumb blonde tag now then , I best keep quiet while the going is good then , before I say something stupid again lol 

Yes Northerner all this for under a tenner tut tut.


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## Einstein (Jun 6, 2009)

insulinaddict09 said:


> Woo I am shaking off the dumb blonde tag now then , I best keep quiet while the going is good then , before I say something stupid again lol
> 
> Yes Northerner all this for under a tenner tut tut.


 
Awwww don't want you shutting up DB


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## Northerner (Jun 6, 2009)

insulinaddict09 said:


> ...Yes Northerner all this for under a tenner tut tut.



You forget I'm from Yorkshire and only like to spend brass on stuff I choose to - that ?7.50 would have bought me a nice fish supper and some cans of Stella! Instead I've got nothing for it!


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## Einstein (Jun 6, 2009)

Northerner said:


> You forget I'm from Yorkshire and only like to spend brass on stuff I choose to - that ?7.50 would have bought me a nice fish supper and some cans of Stella! Instead I've got nothing for it!


 
I'd never forget you're from Yorkshire Northerner, but would never let that prejudice my helping you in anyway I can - well within reason! 

I got my fish supper for free last night, gave the chap who owns the chippy some advice


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## Einstein (Jun 6, 2009)

Einstein said:


> I'd never forget you're from Yorkshire Northerner, but would never let that prejudice my helping you in anyway I can - well within reason!
> 
> I got my fish supper for free last night, gave the chap who owns the chippy some advice


 
And with that money I've saved I'm off for a subway


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## rossi_mac (Jun 6, 2009)

Just a quickie.

We're with Orange, landline & broadband (home max I think its called) package and get a 2nd phone that connects to the wireless router that uses the internet to make free calls 24/7 to orange mobiles and all 01,02,& 03 numbers. I think the cost is just shy of 18 quid all in, then calls on top if you make any.


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## mikep1979 (Jun 7, 2009)

yeah it is a good deal, but again it uses bt equipment as they rent the lines off bt and sell them onto their customers for an inflated price.


lol i dont work for cable either david lol just think they have been excellent to me and yeah i got them in the new pad. got it all changed over and installed on thursday at no charge to me


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## Einstein (Jun 7, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> yeah it is a good deal, but again it uses bt equipment as they rent the lines off bt and sell them onto their customers for an inflated price.
> 
> 
> lol i dont work for cable either david lol just think they have been excellent to me and yeah i got them in the new pad. got it all changed over and installed on thursday at no charge to me


 

Mike my 50mb service goes live on 19th  Can't find the upstream feed on it, guess its still sub 1mb


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## mikep1979 (Jun 7, 2009)

Einstein said:


> Mike my 50mb service goes live on 19th  Can't find the upstream feed on it, guess its still sub 1mb



i know they called me yesterday to tell me i will be upgraded to it on the 20th  cant wait!!!!!!!! superspeeds for me to download..................... errrrmmmmm internet pages hahahahaha


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## Einstein (Jun 7, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> i know they called me yesterday to tell me i will be upgraded to it on the 20th  cant wait!!!!!!!! superspeeds for me to download..................... errrrmmmmm internet pages hahahahaha


 
Yeah, done work with the likes of your sort, four or five high speed feeds to home


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## mikep1979 (Jun 7, 2009)

Einstein said:


> Yeah, done work with the likes of your sort, four or five high speed feeds to home



errrrmmmmmmm i dont know what you mean!!!!!!!


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## Einstein (Jun 7, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> errrrmmmmmmm i dont know what you mean!!!!!!!


 
I didn't mean you, of course you wouldn't know. You don't mix with that class!

Well my problem on Friday cleared itself 24 hours outage though first one of that length I can recall since the early 512kb days! 

Ah, of course, you're too young to recall those days - YEARS before BT and ADSL - its a shame people didn't get on the cable bandwaggon, but I think NTL offered poor value for money and service, telewest was always first class and if they ever did make a mistake it was an automatic cancellation of the bill and a credit to next months 

Customer service and satisfaction, pity other companies don't understand those four words..

Ooops, starting to head into grumpy old man mode, best hush before Northerner catches me


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## mikep1979 (Jun 7, 2009)

Einstein said:


> I didn't mean you, of course you wouldn't know. You don't mix with that class!
> 
> Well my problem on Friday cleared itself 24 hours outage though first one of that length I can recall since the early 512kb days!
> 
> ...





lol well i do remember the old 512kb days hahahahaha and we had telewest as we were always in liverpool (when in the uk) so yeah it was great service and as we have had tv etc with them for years now i automatically renew every year with them so i get the best deals on offer lol


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## Northerner (Jun 7, 2009)

Einstein said:


> ...
> Customer service and satisfaction, pity other companies don't understand those four words..
> 
> Ooops, starting to head into grumpy old man mode, best hush before Northerner catches me



Don't worry David, this is the ideal thread for grumpy old men! Actually, unrelated to internet services, a couple of years ago I had the misfortune to lose a ?2,000 deposit I had paid for some wooden flooring when the company went bust. No problem, I thought, I paid it with my credit card. There then followed 2 years of back and forth letters where the CC company tried to duck the payout - it must have cost them more in man hours to resist the claim than to pay it, they were clearly hoping I would give up, and no doubt many do. They had a clear obligation under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and if they didn't know that, they shouldn't have been in business. Eventually they paid up, as they knew right from the start they would have to. So much for honesty and customer service! I'm sure you'd have got it sorted very quickly, but for those of us with no legal knowledge this may be a once-only event and can be very distressing and intimidating. They are scum of the slimiest kind!


----------



## Einstein (Jun 7, 2009)

Northerner said:


> Don't worry David, this is the ideal thread for grumpy old men! Actually, unrelated to internet services, a couple of years ago I had the misfortune to lose a ?2,000 deposit I had paid for some wooden flooring when the company went bust. No problem, I thought, I paid it with my credit card. There then followed 2 years of back and forth letters where the CC company tried to duck the payout - it must have cost them more in man hours to resist the claim than to pay it, they were clearly hoping I would give up, and no doubt many do. They had a clear obligation under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, and if they didn't know that, they shouldn't have been in business. Eventually they paid up, as they knew right from the start they would have to. So much for honesty and customer service! I'm sure you'd have got it sorted very quickly, but for those of us with no legal knowledge this may be a once-only event and can be very distressing and intimidating. They are scum of the slimiest kind!


 
What more do I say what they are a load of bankers!


----------



## Einstein (Jun 7, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> lol well i do remember the old 512kb days hahahahaha and we had telewest as we were always in liverpool (when in the uk) so yeah it was great service and as we have had tv etc with them for years now i automatically renew every year with them so i get the best deals on offer lol


 
I must admit I was staggered with the email that came later on, thanks Dr B for the order.... installation on.... and we've done you a better deal as you have XXL already and we're doing you an XXXL - I thought cheeky sods they've been looking in my laundry again! 

Still, always nice when you get a better deal than you planned.


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 7, 2009)

my credit card company tried it with me, so i politely reminded them of the terms and conditions THEY sent me  worked a treat as it was in them that if anything went wrong with my card payments or if could prove fraud they would pay it back to me so i sent them proof as i was in saudi when my card was used in the uk and my plane ticket proved it  they kind of went oh sorry and paid up.


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 7, 2009)

Einstein said:


> I must admit I was staggered with the email that came later on, thanks Dr B for the order.... installation on.... and we've done you a better deal as you have XXL already and we're doing you an XXXL - I thought cheeky sods they've been looking in my laundry again!
> 
> Still, always nice when you get a better deal than you planned.



lol yeah i know. they just called my mobile out of the blue and said youve got the top package with us for everything so we will be doing your 50meg bb for free and installing it on the 20th


----------



## Einstein (Jun 7, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> lol yeah i know. they just called my mobile out of the blue and said youve got the top package with us for everything so we will be doing your 50meg bb for free and installing it on the 20th


 
You're with them for mobile as well


----------



## Northerner (Jun 7, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> lol yeah i know. they just called my mobile out of the blue and said youve got the top package with us for everything so we will be doing your 50meg bb for free and installing it on the 20th



Going back to the original post, this is why BT don't care about me, because I use the absolute minimum of their services - wouldn't be much of a loss to them!


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 7, 2009)

Einstein said:


> You're with them for mobile as well



nah i have a o2 mobile. i use it as my primary contact number lol



Northerner said:


> Going back to the original post, this is why BT don't care about me, because I use the absolute minimum of their services - wouldn't be much of a loss to them!



well i know for a fact my uncle who is 74 has the bottom package for everything of cable and he gets the same service as i do.


----------



## Northerner (Jun 7, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> ...well i know for a fact my uncle who is 74 has the bottom package for everything of cable and he gets the same service as i do.



Sounding better and better! Incidentally, I have Virgin mobile - I PAYG on direct debit, and they changed my billing to 3-monthly and send it as a text, mostly because the last three bills have been less than 10 pence, and it would cost them more to bill me by letter!


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 7, 2009)

Northerner said:


> Sounding better and better! Incidentally, I have Virgin mobile - I PAYG on direct debit, and they changed my billing to 3-monthly and send it as a text, mostly because the last three bills have been less than 10 pence, and it would cost them more to bill me by letter!



virgin are superb for looking after their customers


----------



## Einstein (Jun 7, 2009)

Northerner said:


> Going back to the original post, this is why BT don't care about me, because I use the absolute minimum of their services - wouldn't be much of a loss to them!


 
BT are mandated as to how many customers a year they have to LOOSE! So loosing you wouldn't hit them. No, you're a good customer, they charge you the same money, then because you don't cost them anything (placing calls costs money!) they charge you ?7.50 of raw profit!

We're back to the regulator wanting BT out of business, but not being able to afford it, as they wouldn't have the network then!


----------



## Northerner (Jun 7, 2009)

Einstein said:


> BT are mandated as to how many customers a year they have to LOOSE! So loosing you wouldn't hit them. No, you're a good customer, they charge you the same money, then because you don't cost them anything (placing calls costs money!) they charge you ?7.50 of raw profit!
> 
> We're back to the regulator wanting BT out of business, but not being able to afford it, as they wouldn't have the network then!



Crazy! I'm afraid that I have to show my socialist roots and say that I blame Thatcher for selling off all the natural monopolies (the 'family silver' I think Macmillan called it) under the guise of 'competition'. National infrastructure like networks, power and rail best serve the people as a whole if they are owned by the nation, not a handful of shareholders. I'm not really aware that my cost of living is any better than that of my parents in their day, thanks to this so-called competition.


----------



## Einstein (Jun 7, 2009)

Northerner said:


> Crazy! I'm afraid that I have to show my socialist roots and say that I blame Thatcher for selling off all the natural monopolies (the 'family silver' I think Macmillan called it) under the guise of 'competition'. National infrastructure like networks, power and rail best serve the people as a whole if they are owned by the nation, not a handful of shareholders. I'm not really aware that my cost of living is any better than that of my parents in their day, thanks to this so-called competition.


 
But then we sit in a global economy, where the world changed dramatically, if we still had a one operator show then I dread to think how much we'd pay for the core services we have.

In telecoms at least we do have a globaly competative rate. Not so sure on energy.

To see how state run still works, we just need to look at the Post Office.


----------



## Steff (Jun 7, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> virgin are superb for looking after their customers



agreed just a quick question this upgrade to 50mb is it for all custumers or do we have to pay ?100. im currently with virgin for tele phone and internet and im on XL broadband


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## Einstein (Jun 7, 2009)

steff09 said:


> agreed just a quick question this upgrade to 50mb is it for all custumers or do we have to pay ?100. im currently with virgin for tele phone and internet and im on XL broadband


 
Not so sure its free Steff, but they haven't told me how much they are reducing by either. Think on the normal tarrif its ?15 more.

No setup fees. 

Just a case of when its in your part of the country, I think the old TeleWest areas are getting it before the NTL areas... usually seems to be the case.

Will post when its done and bring you up to speed!


----------



## Steff (Jun 7, 2009)

I will look on the website as i think you can type in your postcode and it tells you when it's coming to your area


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## Einstein (Jun 7, 2009)

steff09 said:


> I will look on the website as i think you can type in your postcode and it tells you when it's coming to your area


 
Indeed it does!


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## Steff (Jun 7, 2009)

ah it is ?35


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## Einstein (Jun 7, 2009)

steff09 said:


> ah it is ?35


 
Worth a call to them to see how much they will do it for as an upgrade


----------



## Steff (Jun 7, 2009)

they wil say no as im on this triple discount thing , i have tried moving things around before and they said your on the best plan for yourself at the minute we will contact you if we see any changes , best to keep things as they are


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## Einstein (Jun 7, 2009)

steff09 said:


> they wil say no as im on this triple discount thing , i have tried moving things around before and they said your on the best plan for yourself at the minute we will contact you if we see any changes , best to keep things as they are


 
Hmmm whats triple discount? all three services?


----------



## Steff (Jun 7, 2009)

yes all xl tho


----------



## Einstein (Jun 7, 2009)

steff09 said:


> yes all xl tho


 
Well thats what I got and they emailed me and said 'we're doing you a better deal...' that was after I'd placed the order?


----------



## Steff (Jun 7, 2009)

ahh yes that also included sky sports with it


----------



## Einstein (Jun 7, 2009)

steff09 said:


> ahh yes that also included sky sports with it


 
Oh, I don't have any Sky stuff - refuse to give Sky any more of my money than I have to..


----------



## Steff (Jun 7, 2009)

oh i dont want it but if i wanna keep him happy(OH) then it stays oh and the boy likes it to watch tennis.


----------



## Steff (Jun 7, 2009)

ahh all quiet AGAIN as if by magic


----------



## Einstein (Jun 7, 2009)

steff09 said:


> ahh all quiet AGAIN as if by magic


 
What? I was thinking, well, trying to think and I have a Bruce trying to get my attention - fuss or roast beef? I wonder? 

I'm not into sport and the movies don't really do it, I have lovefilms so for less than Sky movies I can hire a many as I like in a month  Its a good service


----------



## Tezzz (Jun 8, 2009)

Einstein said:


> I'm just playing with DDNS which is what you are referring to, it maps your dynamic Virgin IP to the DNS and changes the DNS to reflect the IP, ok, but I want it for exchange - don't ask, need a mail server at home
> 
> I thought Kingston went to the wall or were taken over - all said it worked well, small scale..
> 
> The upside of cable is, they went fibre end to end and co-ax into the home... hence all the work is done and they started moving TV not voice.



I have ADSL and use Plus Net. I live close to the exchange and get 700K/s download speeds. ?20/month for gamers service and static IP. My mail Linux server used to run on it till the box died. Now I have a VPS with Goscomb for ?10/month + VAT. Very happy.


----------



## Tezzz (Jun 8, 2009)

Northerner said:


> Going back to the original post, this is why BT don't care about me, because I use the absolute minimum of their services - wouldn't be much of a loss to them!



Northerner, I hardly use the phone in my flat now, and discovered that I need to make 2 chargeable calls a month with BT not to get clobbered. I just ring the mobile let it get answered by the voicemail and hang up.


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

brightontez said:


> Northerner, I hardly use the phone in my flat now, and discovered that I need to make 2 chargeable calls a month with BT not to get clobbered. I just ring the mobile let it get answered by the voicemail and hang up.



but dont it annoy you that you have to make these calls in the first place????

i know with cable you dont. even if you have the phone service (you can get broadband without phone) you dont need to make any calls at all!!!


----------



## Northerner (Jun 8, 2009)

brightontez said:


> Northerner, I hardly use the phone in my flat now, and discovered that I need to make 2 chargeable calls a month with BT not to get clobbered. I just ring the mobile let it get answered by the voicemail and hang up.



Thanks for that tez - I couldn't find anywhere how many calls constituted a minimum - obviously I haven't even made two calls! Will do as you suggest whilst I contemplate Virgin.


----------



## Northerner (Jun 8, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> but dont it annoy you that you have to make these calls in the first place????
> 
> i know with cable you dont. even if you have the phone service (you can get broadband without phone) you dont need to make any calls at all!!!



It really annoyed me (hence this thread!). At one time they probably wouldn't have charged me this, but they keep changing the 'plan' you're on to some new scheme, and hide all these new little details in the (extremely!) small print - another bugbear of mine!!!


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Northerner said:


> It really annoyed me (hence this thread!). At one time they probably wouldn't have charged me this, but they keep changing the 'plan' you're on to some new scheme, and hide all these new little details in the (extremely!) small print - another bugbear of mine!!!



ive never had a problem like that with virgin as when they find a package better for me they give me a curtesy call to let me know and ask if i want to take it up. also find they have no Small Print that you cant see.


----------



## Northerner (Jun 8, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> ive never had a problem like that with virgin as when they find a package better for me they give me a curtesy call to let me know and ask if i want to take it up. also find they have no Small Print that you cant see.



I've been looking at the deals on the Virgin site - only problem now is not being tempted by the extra tv channels etc. that I can't really afford currently!  

Just had a thought about BT actually. They sent me a thing giving me free evening and weekend calls if I signed up for an 18-month contract. I'm pretty sure I didn't sign. I wonder if they would have charged me the 'low user' charge if the calls I made were 'free'?


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Northerner said:


> I've been looking at the deals on the Virgin site - only problem now is not being tempted by the extra tv channels etc. that I can't really afford currently!
> 
> Just had a thought about BT actually. They sent me a thing giving me free evening and weekend calls if I signed up for an 18-month contract. I'm pretty sure I didn't sign. I wonder if they would have charged me the 'low user' charge if the calls I made were 'free'?



if i were you id stick to the base package for now and if in the future you find you want extra channels then you can add them 

i doubt bt would get away with it, but i think they would still try. in my eyes they are the biggest rip off in the world.


----------



## Einstein (Jun 8, 2009)

Northerner said:


> I've been looking at the deals on the Virgin site - only problem now is not being tempted by the extra tv channels etc. that I can't really afford currently!
> 
> Just had a thought about BT actually. They sent me a thing giving me free evening and weekend calls if I signed up for an 18-month contract. I'm pretty sure I didn't sign. I wonder if they would have charged me the 'low user' charge if the calls I made were 'free'?


 
If you're on a inclusive package how can they charge you a low usage cost as well? Surely evenings and weekends are the times when people who are out at work use the phone?

Like Mike, I've found TeleWest and Virgin (now the same) to be very fair, if you don't want the phone you don't get the best deal on the broadband, but the option is there. And you don't have to take the TV at all if you don't want to!

The other critical point is the fabric is all fibre and it doesn't matter how far you are from their exchange either. With ADSL you'll get a good throughput if you're next door, but not if you're 10 miles from the exchange.

Another important point is contention, Virgin work on local contention rations, there is a green or blue box somewhere near where you live, the contention (number of people sharing the same bandwidth as you) is at that box, not as with ADSL where they look at your account subscription, decide you're on a 50:1 ratio therefore, they will find 49 other subscribers on the same tarrif as you and bunch you together, if you like 'soft contention' as you could be in different exchanges and still be sharing the same bandwidth 

My reason for upgrading with Virgin is very few people near me ever go for the top package, so perhaps I am sharing it with 4 other people?

The point now comes regarding the pipe from the ISP of the web server you're accessing, very few people are running GbE (Gigabit Ethernet) pipes, nevermind sitting on the back of 21CN, so they might be on a 2, 10 or perhaps 100Mb pipes and their throughput per user could be throttled to a few hundred kilobits each.

All good fun eh?!


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Einstein said:


> If you're on a inclusive package how can they charge you a low usage cost as well? Surely evenings and weekends are the times when people who are out at work use the phone?
> 
> Like Mike, I've found TeleWest and Virgin (now the same) to be very fair, if you don't want the phone you don't get the best deal on the broadband, but the option is there. And you don't have to take the TV at all if you don't want to!
> 
> ...



stop baffeling the poor folks!!!!!!! hehehehehehe


----------



## Einstein (Jun 8, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> stop baffeling the poor folks!!!!!!! hehehehehehe


 
Hey, our pal from Brigton, Taz (ooops I hope it is!) started techno speak here Mike!

How are you anyway?


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Einstein said:


> Hey, our pal from Brigton, Taz (ooops I hope it is!) started techno speak here Mike!
> 
> How are you anyway?



lol yeah tez did.

im not to bad mate. you????


----------



## Einstein (Jun 8, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> lol yeah tez did.
> 
> im not to bad mate. you????


 
Coping, dropped the boy off, nice young lady assessor is taking his assessment this week, so off he trotted, sniffing the roses, dumped me, I'm gutted!

He could have stayed in the car and I'd have trotted off with her


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Einstein said:


> Coping, dropped the boy off, nice young lady assessor is taking his assessment this week, so off he trotted, sniffing the roses, dumped me, I'm gutted!
> 
> He could have stayed in the car and I'd have trotted off with her



lol yeah he was thinking mmmmmm nice peice of totty to give me my assesment and scratch me ears for me. sod you dad!!!!!!! hehehehehe


----------



## Einstein (Jun 8, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> lol yeah he was thinking mmmmmm nice peice of totty to give me my assesment and scratch me ears for me. sod you dad!!!!!!! hehehehehe


 
Cheers chum!


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Einstein said:


> Cheers chum!



lol well when its down to the ladies and she's a huni then sorry mate every man/dog for themselves hehehehehe

nah he will be ok mate


----------



## Einstein (Jun 8, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> lol well when its down to the ladies and she's a huni then sorry mate every man/dog for themselves hehehehehe
> 
> nah he will be ok mate


 
Yeah, he will, what about ME!!!!


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Einstein said:


> Yeah, he will, what about ME!!!!



enjoy the freedom for a couple of days lol


----------



## Einstein (Jun 8, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> enjoy the freedom for a couple of days lol


 
Ooooh, yes


----------



## Northerner (Jun 8, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> stop baffeling the poor folks!!!!!!! hehehehehehe



Gibber!!!! Some good points David, thanks, particularly about the distance from the exchange - I know this is a problem for me, and one of the main reasons for my slow speeds (usually 1- 1.5 mbps). I'd also like to be dealing with one 'supplier' - recently had a problem where my BB was dropping all the time and it turned out to be a fault on the line rather than the ISP's fault, but at other times it's been the other way round, and sometimes they play each other off against each other, which is NOT helpful! 

Think I'll go for the basic package at ?14 + ?11 phone line and see how it goes from there. Do you get any free webspace (for a homepage, for example)?


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Northerner said:


> Gibber!!!! Some good points David, thanks, particularly about the distance from the exchange - I know this is a problem for me, and one of the main reasons for my slow speeds (usually 1- 1.5 mbps). I'd also like to be dealing with one 'supplier' - recently had a problem where my BB was dropping all the time and it turned out to be a fault on the line rather than the ISP's fault, but at other times it's been the other way round, and sometimes they play each other off against each other, which is NOT helpful!
> 
> Think I'll go for the basic package at ?14 + ?11 phone line and see how it goes from there. Do you get any free webspace (for a homepage, for example)?



i would hate to be back on the bt system!!!!!! i now live about 20 miles away from my local exchange so id have to suffer.

not sure about the webspace but you can get free space with a host of different sites


----------



## Einstein (Jun 8, 2009)

Northerner said:


> Gibber!!!! Some good points David, thanks, particularly about the distance from the exchange - I know this is a problem for me, and one of the main reasons for my slow speeds (usually 1- 1.5 mbps). I'd also like to be dealing with one 'supplier' - recently had a problem where my BB was dropping all the time and it turned out to be a fault on the line rather than the ISP's fault, but at other times it's been the other way round, and sometimes they play each other off against each other, which is NOT helpful!
> 
> Think I'll go for the basic package at ?14 + ?11 phone line and see how it goes from there. Do you get any free webspace (for a homepage, for example)?


 
I think you do on all the packages... Never used it myself. Mind you I have two socking great data centers, so thats not an issue for me


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Einstein said:


> I think you do on all the packages... Never used it myself. Mind you I have two socking great data centers, so thats not an issue for me



lol i went for a data centre but decided i didnt really need it. was more of an impulse thing that i was gonna buy one lol


----------



## Einstein (Jun 8, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> lol i went for a data centre but decided i didnt really need it. was more of an impulse thing that i was gonna buy one lol


 

Also, 400,000 sq feet of underground bunkers  Don't ask!


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Einstein said:


> Also, 400,000 sq feet of underground bunkers  Don't ask!



lol well im gonna cos you have peaked my interest now!!!!!!!!


----------



## Einstein (Jun 8, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> lol well im gonna cos you have peaked my interest now!!!!!!!!


 
I'm just a sad, lonely (not so) little man


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Einstein said:


> I'm just a sad, lonely (not so) little man



hahahahahaha well i do have a sideline that i could use the data storage for. but on the other hand.................... hehehehehehehe


----------



## Einstein (Jun 8, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> hahahahahaha well i do have a sideline that i could use the data storage for. but on the other hand.................... hehehehehehehe


 

How much do you need?


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Einstein said:


> How much do you need?



well trust me a fair size!!!!! lol


----------



## Einstein (Jun 8, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> well trust me a fair size!!!!! lol


 

We're running a couple of petabytes each site... occupancy is just tipping 70%...


----------



## Northerner (Jun 8, 2009)

Well, I still haven't filled the 40gig hard drive on the computer I bought 8 years ago!


----------



## Einstein (Jun 8, 2009)

Northerner said:


> Well, I still haven't filled the 40gig hard drive on the computer I bought 8 years ago!


 
We've got lots of customers who do many, many times over


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Einstein said:


> We've got lots of customers who do many, many times over



lol i have 4 1 terra bit drives and i may need a couple more soon!!!!!! hehehehehehe


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Einstein said:


> We're running a couple of petabytes each site... occupancy is just tipping 70%...



lol well i have a few drives (external and they are all full of pics etc)


----------



## Einstein (Jun 8, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> lol well i have a few drives (external and they are all full of pics etc)


 
I have a couple of thousand 1TB drives as well


----------



## Northerner (Jun 8, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> lol i have 4 1 terra bit drives and i may need a couple more soon!!!!!! hehehehehehe



I have a computer downstairs - an IBM AS/400, original retail price ?29,000, that supports 12 concurrent users and has 965 meg of disk including operating system, and 1 meg ram. Now worthless and useless! Amazing how things have changed- I think it's 'Moore's Law'?


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Northerner said:


> I have a computer downstairs - an IBM AS/400, original retail price ?29,000, that supports 12 concurrent users and has 965 meg of disk including operating system, and 1 meg ram. Now worthless and useless! Amazing how things have changed- I think it's 'Moore's Law'?



lol my system has a huge ammount of ram (the system i use for my other project). laptop has 5 gig and a 1tb hd.


----------



## Einstein (Jun 8, 2009)

Northerner said:


> I have a computer downstairs - an IBM AS/400, original retail price ?29,000, that supports 12 concurrent users and has 965 meg of disk including operating system, and 1 meg ram. Now worthless and useless! Amazing how things have changed- I think it's 'Moore's Law'?


 
1 meg, luxury, 965 meg hard disk, bliss... up at my fathers is an old NCR8250 mini, wire wrapped, (re-done by my good self!) 256K RAM, 40Mb top load cartirdge hard drives, key swith boot strap, boot loader and OS from tape, then COBAL for 10 plus users!

Ran the accounts system for the Milk Marketing Board - and we need what now to run an accounts package!


----------



## Northerner (Jun 8, 2009)

Einstein said:


> 1 meg, luxury, 965 meg hard disk, bliss... up at my fathers is an old NCR8250 mini, wire wrapped, (re-done by my good self!) 256K RAM, 40Mb top load cartirdge hard drives, key swith boot strap, boot loader and OS from tape, then COBAL for 10 plus users!
> 
> Ran the accounts system for the Milk Marketing Board - and we need what now to run an accounts package!



It's a problem, I think. Programmers and designers are less disciplined about the software they write because the constraints aren't there, but in a lot of cases it just leads to sloppy, bug-ridden bloatware that will only run happily on the latest hi-spec turbo-charged machine. Do the requirements of software drive the expansion in cheap storage? Or is it the other way around? I know when IBM changed to RISC processors their memory cards dropped in price ten-fold, otherwise you wouldn't have been able to afford to run their machines. OK, so you need storage for hi-res photos, music, video these days, but the programs could have been designed much better if there wasn't all this memory slopping around. Rant over!


----------



## Einstein (Jun 8, 2009)

Northerner said:


> It's a problem, I think. Programmers and designers are less disciplined about the software they write because the constraints aren't there, but in a lot of cases it just leads to sloppy, bug-ridden bloatware that will only run happily on the latest hi-spec turbo-charged machine. Do the requirements of software drive the expansion in cheap storage? Or is it the other way around? I know when IBM changed to RISC processors their memory cards dropped in price ten-fold, otherwise you wouldn't have been able to afford to run their machines. OK, so you need storage for hi-res photos, music, video these days, but the programs could have been designed much better if there wasn't all this memory slopping around. Rant over!


 
When you right an OS using a high level language/environment you are heading for BIG overheads in anything that runs on that OS!

Also, the more the is embedded within a file format then the bigger the file will become, not by content, but by descriptor.


----------



## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Northerner said:


> It's a problem, I think. Programmers and designers are less disciplined about the software they write because the constraints aren't there, but in a lot of cases it just leads to sloppy, bug-ridden bloatware that will only run happily on the latest hi-spec turbo-charged machine. Do the requirements of software drive the expansion in cheap storage? Or is it the other way around? I know when IBM changed to RISC processors their memory cards dropped in price ten-fold, otherwise you wouldn't have been able to afford to run their machines. OK, so you need storage for hi-res photos, music, video these days, but the programs could have been designed much better if there wasn't all this memory slopping around. Rant over!



oh i agree totally with you. i remember the first computer i saw. was a huge beast (was a cray super computer lol) and this was mind boggling in what it could do. my mates dad who runs his own company recently purchased 2 of them for a stupid ammount of money. when he told me i said he could have had something built that would have been half the size for a quater of the cost and it would have done 10 times what his crays will do.


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## Einstein (Jun 8, 2009)

mikep1979 said:


> oh i agree totally with you. i remember the first computer i saw. was a huge beast (was a cray super computer lol) and this was mind boggling in what it could do. my mates dad who runs his own company recently purchased 2 of them for a stupid ammount of money. when he told me i said he could have had something built that would have been half the size for a quater of the cost and it would have done 10 times what his crays will do.


 
But they were incredible beasts in their day and they are a major milestone in super computing history!

You can't build that so easily today.


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## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Einstein said:


> But they were incredible beasts in their day and they are a major milestone in super computing history!
> 
> You can't build that so easily today.



they were in their day, but now are small fry. my employer in saudi has a computer which is so fast and powerful i was literaly stood in awe of it!!!!


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## Northerner (Jun 8, 2009)

I was offered an IBM System/38 that cost ?90,000, but it needed a 3-phase power supply and specialised environment, and I didn't have that in my attic room at the time! The AS/400 plugs into a normal power supply, but sounds like a jet engine when started up!


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## mikep1979 (Jun 8, 2009)

Northerner said:


> I was offered an IBM System/38 that cost ?90,000, but it needed a 3-phase power supply and specialised environment, and I didn't have that in my attic room at the time! The AS/400 plugs into a normal power supply, but sounds like a jet engine when started up!



lol i would love to be able to afford something like that but the other half would have a freak at me for buying it!!! she lost the plot when i spent ?1500 on my one i got now (my brother built it for me) lol


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