# Newcastle University Diet



## smithgareth

Just wondered whether anyone here has tried this diet.
I'm planning to have a try, starting Sunday 8th January and using Optislim


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## Robster65

Hi Smithgareth. Welcome 

Have you consulted your GP on this ?

The consensus at the time of the trial was that it was only safe under lab conditions and with individual supervision. It's very much a subsistence diet and involved measured exercise, which would require monitoring equipment.

It's also shown that it doesn't reverse symptoms for all people nor for how long.

Nobody can recommend it to you, but I would urge you to see your GP and take their advice if you haven't already done so.

Are you on meds at the moment ?


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## smithgareth

Hi Robster,

yes I'm on Metformin and Sitagliptin at the moment, had a very very long converstation with my GP and diabetic nurse and they were majorly sceptical. I printed out all the information from the study and after a lot of conversations they've agreed to let me try. The clincher was that they have had a number of patients who have had gastric bypasses and bands who no longer need their medication.

I have to be honest when I first read about it I was very sceptical, but having read and read and read I want to try it. Not saying it's the answer to all our prayers, but if I don't try (and it's only 8 weeks of my life) I'll never know


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## Robster65

As long as you keep them in the loop, that would be the responsible approach.

I'm still very sceptical but I guess I'm not in your position so can afford to be ! 

How long have you been diagnosed ?

Rob


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## smithgareth

Diagnosed in 2001, and my control has steadily worsened, was put onto Sitagliptin in addition to Metformin 6 months ago and warned that I was on the slow progression to Insulin.
I'm very aware that this is going to be a difficult path, but it doesn't appear to need in depth medical supervision to try. My GP looked into it and has basically adopted a keep in touch approach. I have to take my fasting glucose and weight reads and e-mail them daily. My GP has said (as per Newcastle Uni) to stop taking the Metformin and Sitagliptin and I won't suffer from hypo's, and as I have no retinopathy apparent there are no major risks for me to try this diet.
So I'm gonna give it a go hope this may help, even if it only puts off insulin for another few years it's gotta be worth a try.
Sorry should say I'm 41 years old, 6 feet 1" tall and 14 stone 6 pounds.


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## trophywench

Well you aren't partic overweight, are you?

And what's Plan B if your BG's don't play ball and stay down? - come off it early?


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## Andy HB

I think you need to understand whether the Newcastle diet has any other effect than just helping improve insulin resistance (I assume that you don't have that problem because your weight seems fine to me .... maybe one stone could be shaved off if you're carrying fat rather than muscle though).

It'd be interesting to see what happens, but you do need to work with your GP on this one as already has been said.

Let us know what happens and good luck.

Andy


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## Mark T

Hi smithgareth and welcome to the forums 

Good luck with the diet! it's not an approach I would personally take.  But everyone is individual.

The problem with that diet is that it is a starvation approach and therefore not maintainable.  Whilst on the diet your numbers may improve, what is to stop them going back up when you come off the diet?

But as you say, it's only 8 weeks and if you don't try it you will never know.

It will be interesting to see how you get on!


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## cherrypie

We did discuss this diet briefly when it first appeared in the press.


http://www.diabetessupport.co.uk/boards/showthread.php?t=23247&highlight=newcastle+study
I hope you manage to keep going for the eight weeks.

Might well be worth reading this as well.
http://www.diabetessupport.co.uk/boards/showthread.php?t=24216

I seem to remember that the Newcastle Study participants had been diagnosed for four years or less.  I do not know why this was or why people diagnosed longer where not included in the study?

You do not have a lot of weight to lose and I wonder if your eating plan to manage your diabetes needs tweaking to bring your numbers down.

I wish you well and please keep us informed of your progress.


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## trophywench

It was a v small group of patients, and there was absoutely nothing to say how long the effect lasted or what their so-called 'normal' diet before or after might have consisted of.  I'm not sure whether we know how old they were or whether their D was caused by ... what? - purely genetic? purely brought on by obesity? how much C-pep were they still producing? blah blah blah.  So no other diabetic will know whether they match the sample ....

I mean if any diabetic T1 or T2 lived in lab conditions for X weeks with every morsel and step controlled to the Nth degree, all of em would see improvements no doubt.  But real life doesn't consist of those conditions!

Still - do it and see.  But please don't hold your breath or be disappointed if it doesn't work.  If it does though, I'll be amongst the first saying how pleased I am for you!


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## smithgareth

Hi All,

Many thanks for all your messages, Plan B is back to tablets and probably within the next couple of years onto insulin.
I'm not carrying a lot of weight, but the problem is the fact I carry it all around my abdomen.
The Newcastle study is very intensive and i've copied a link here for reading.

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm

Even Professor Taylor who carried out the trial is positive in one paragraph and negative in the next, so the truth is no-one knows.

I've talked to other diabetics and a friend who has had gastric surgery and is now off his medication, and I may be putting myself through 8 weeks of misery for nothing, but who know's!

So I start the diet on Sunday 8th January and I'll post my weight loss and fasting bloods daily from then. Hope you'll all keep track.


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## Robster65

have you considered a less intensive diet with more intense exercise ?

I would imagine the net calorie loss is what's important and the fitness would improve your overall health.

I'm just concerned that 600 calories is going to drain your body of resources, slow your metabolism and rebound it all once you stop.

Rob


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## smithgareth

One week gone,
opening fasting glucose 10.1, weight 14 stone 4
today fasting glucose 6.4, weight 13 stone 8.
Not been a bad first week, slightly muzzy headaches a couple of days and suffering with the cold a bit, but the Optislim shakes are quite nice, plenty of varieties and some warm soup (made from the suggested recipies) have kept me going,
Only 7 weeks to go!!


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## Northerner

smithgareth said:


> One week gone,
> opening fasting glucose 10.1, weight 14 stone 4
> today fasting glucose 6.4, weight 13 stone 8.
> Not been a bad first week, slightly muzzy headaches a couple of days and suffering with the cold a bit, but the Optislim shakes are quite nice, plenty of varieties and some warm soup (made from the suggested recipies) have kept me going,
> Only 7 weeks to go!!



Thanks for the update Gareth, wishing you the best of luck - let us know how things go!


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## HOBIE

I think i would give it ago smithgareth. The poeple at ncle uni no what there on about.  Good luck


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## smithgareth

well another interesting week, never thought 150g of Cauliflower 
curry would taste so good and make me feel full!!

I had a terrible day on Tuesday, blood sugar 2 and a half 
hours after my breakfast shake was 9.4 and I felt awful, couldn't get 
warm and had a really muzzy head. Nearly broke and ran for the kitchen, 
but I held off came home had a nice hot bath and curled up on the sofa. 
Woke up Wednesday feeling fantastic and I haven't had a blood read 
higher than 7.9 since. All my fasting reads have been under 6 with the 
lowest 4.9, reads during the day have tended to be between 4.2 and 5.0 
pre shake and 6.4 to 7.9 two hours post shake.I've now lost just over a 
stone!


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## Northerner

Do you think you can manage another 6 weeks Gareth? Well done on the weight loss


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## trophywench

Well that's jolly good so far, Gareth !

I reckon, the key to this for the future is to include that 150g of cauli curry (and other low carb meals that satisfy you equally well) as a fixture in your future diet after the 'experiment' is over.  It would have to be balanced out with proteins etc etc at other meals of course, once the shakes are no longer in the plan.

Onwards and downwards, eh?


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## HOBIE

Good news ! Keep at it & well done for giving it ago more power to you !!


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## smithgareth

Well another week down and only five to go!! I weighed in at just 
under 13 stone this morning that's the first time I've been this light 
since 1987!

Fasting blood glucose remains good, highest this week was 5.4, and I've 
not had a two hour read higher than 7.4.

Even bought my wife a chinese this week and wasn't tempted at all!


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## Northerner

smithgareth said:


> Well another week down and only five to go!! I weighed in at just
> under 13 stone this morning that's the first time I've been this light
> since 1987!
> 
> Fasting blood glucose remains good, highest this week was 5.4, and I've
> not had a two hour read higher than 7.4.
> 
> Even bought my wife a chinese this week and wasn't tempted at all!



It sounds like the diet is also altering your palate Gareth, which is encouraging for the future as it should help you sustain an healthy diet.


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## smithgareth

Well thats 4 weeks down and four to go! Fasting bloods continue to be between 4.4 and 5.1, and I'm down to 12 stone 9 pounds. Two hour reads are between 6.6 and 7.4 and I seem to have plenty of energy. We're moving at work and I've been moving desks around, also been swimming and some light jogging and bloods have been fine. The lowest read I've had was this morning three hours after my shake and just after a snowball fight when it was 3.7!!

Anyway many thanks for your messages.

Gareth


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## Carina1962

I will be very interested to know how you get on with this.  I printed out a copy of the trial and gave it to my GP and she seemed very interested in it and said she would take it away and read it so when i see her soon i will ask her for her opinion on it.  I have recently bought some Biggest Loser soups and will incorporate these into my diet in a bid to lose weight as i have been struggling now for some time to lose weight.  I am not on meds at the moment and hope to stay off them for as long as possible but know i need to lose a few stones.


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## smithgareth

Well week 5 done, and not much to tell. Another 3 pounds off and consistently good blood sugars. Fastings all week between 5.1 and 4.6, and post shakes they are down and around 6-6.5 by two hours. 
Still don't fancy normal food at all, they had biscuits in a meeting at work this week and I really and genuinely didn't want one, and even the pizza advert went in the bin without a second look(might be fibbing a bit about the pizza advert as it's clearly still on my mind 4 days later!)
We're moving to new premises at work, and I've been moving furniture and boxes, and putting things up on walls and whilst I've avoided pushing myself too hard I'm still amazed at how much energy I have on such a low calorie intake.

3 weeks to go!!


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## Northerner

Thanks for the update Gareth, good to hear that it is still going well for you, sounds like you are getting great numbers and a good weight loss. What does your doctor think about your progress so far?


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## Robster65

Despite my initial scepticism, Imust say you seem to be proving me and a few others wrong, at least up to now.

I'm more interested (as I'm sure are you) in the long term effects but it's a very interesting experiment and I'm pleased you're not suffering any ill effects.

Well done you.

Rob


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## smithgareth

Northerner said:


> Thanks for the update Gareth, good to hear that it is still going well for you, sounds like you are getting great numbers and a good weight loss. What does your doctor think about your progress so far?


To be honest, pretty low key at the moment, I think we're all waiting to see the results of the Glucose Tolerance Test before getting excited. We've also discussed doing a test at 8 weeks, then considering carrying on for another couple of weeks and doing another one. Depends what the numbers are for the first one. I understand from reading around that some people have done the diet for 12 weeks, so we'll see how it goes.


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## smithgareth

Robster65 said:


> Despite my initial scepticism, Imust say you seem to be proving me and a few others wrong, at least up to now.
> 
> I'm more interested (as I'm sure are you) in the long term effects but it's a very interesting experiment and I'm pleased you're not suffering any ill effects.
> 
> Well done you.
> 
> Rob


Thanks Rob, I did understand where you were coming from, and It'd easy to think this is it and I'm going to be free from diabetes, but until I see the final numbers and go back to normalish eating I'm not getting my hopes up too much! It only worked for 7 out of 11 on the study and there have been no further releases considering the original press release came out in June 2011 you'd have though more information from Newcastle University or other trials would be hitting the press by now!


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## Robster65

Possibly worth contacting them to see if they're interested in a (non-clinical) follow up report.

There must be a lot of people doing what you're doing but without any information on the longer term. If they collated enough data, they could at least give some anecdotal reassurance and get an idea for their own follow ups.

Rob


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## HOBIE

Well done Gareth. Good for you in trying it out !!


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## lucy123

Well done you - excellent progress and so pleased you are feeling good on it too


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## smithgareth

6 weeks down and have now hit 12 stone, all blood sugars continue to be good. I'm continuing to struggle a bit with the cold, but it's going to get warmer this week so I'm hoping that helps!
Had my first proper food dream this week, dreamt I was eating a sausage roll! Woke up trying to work out whether I had! and wishing I had!!
Anyway tomato and basil soup for supper, and only 2 weeks to go.


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## Northerner

smithgareth said:


> 6 weeks down and have now hit 12 stone, all blood sugars continue to be good. I'm continuing to struggle a bit with the cold, but it's going to get warmer this week so I'm hoping that helps!
> Had my first proper food dream this week, dreamt I was eating a sausage roll! Woke up trying to work out whether I had! and wishing I had!!
> Anyway tomato and basil soup for supper, and only 2 weeks to go.



You are showing great willpower Gareth - well done  You probably would find a sausage roll too greasy and wouldn't enjoy it!


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## Carina1962

Like everyone else, I am intrigued in the outcome, you sound as if you are very determined and will be very interesting to find out what happens when you come off the diet - can't wait, i do hope it works for you and that you will be able to maintain your levels


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## Katieb

I am amazed by your willpower and commitment and sincerely hope it pays dividends for you. You have done incredibly well and I have masses of admiration for you - I certainly couldn't have done it! Only 2 weeks left eh? That's fantastic and I can't wait to hear the outcome. I hope your GP recognises your commitment too!! Katiex


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## smithgareth

Katieb said:


> I am amazed by your willpower and commitment and sincerely hope it pays dividends for you. You have done incredibly well and I have masses of admiration for you - I certainly couldn't have done it! Only 2 weeks left eh? That's fantastic and I can't wait to hear the outcome. I hope your GP recognises your commitment too!! Katiex



Hi Katie, it's a bit weird really I think I'm immune to food! My wife is having a girlie night tomorrow and she's out at Zumba tonight, so I've been to Tesco and bought a Finest caramel cheesecake and have now made a lasagne! Was odd to be cooking, but I wasn't bothered about eating at all.
My GP has vanished! First 3 weeks I e-mailed and the following day I got a response, even got a couple of phone calls, but haven't heard a thing since, e-mails no longer responded to (I send one a week with my weight, fasting bloods and how I'm feeling.). Nothing like support from the NHS eh!


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## HOBIE

Keep at it Gareth !   I would vote for you !  Positive attitude !


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## Katieb

smithgareth said:


> Hi Katie, it's a bit weird really I think I'm immune to food! My wife is having a girlie night tomorrow and she's out at Zumba tonight, so I've been to Tesco and bought a Finest caramel cheesecake and have now made a lasagne! Was odd to be cooking, but I wasn't bothered about eating at all.
> My GP has vanished! First 3 weeks I e-mailed and the following day I got a response, even got a couple of phone calls, but haven't heard a thing since, e-mails no longer responded to (I send one a week with my weight, fasting bloods and how I'm feeling.). Nothing like support from the NHS eh!



Your GP is probably torn between the ethics of what you are doing and genuine personal interest! My guess is that he/she secretly wants to know but maybe can't publicly encourage you! I'd still keep sending the emails, then go and see them when you complete the programme. No-one can deny it looks like it's working, but it's the getting back to 'normal' eating that will tell in the long run I guess. I personally hope it's a great success!

Well done on the cooking and not being tempted! I couldn't have done that I'm sure. Hope your wife enjoys the lasagne and cheesecake! Katie


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## lucy123

smithgareth said:


> Hi Katie, it's a bit weird really I think I'm immune to food! My wife is having a girlie night tomorrow and she's out at Zumba tonight, so I've been to Tesco and bought a Finest caramel cheesecake and have now made a lasagne! Was odd to be cooking, but I wasn't bothered about eating at all.
> My GP has vanished! First 3 weeks I e-mailed and the following day I got a response, even got a couple of phone calls, but haven't heard a thing since, e-mails no longer responded to (I send one a week with my weight, fasting bloods and how I'm feeling.). Nothing like support from the NHS eh!



Wow - now that is will power - fantastic progress Smithgareth.
I too am fascinated by your story -  but even more so by your willpower!
I will also be interested in how you feel and progress after the 2 weeks has finished - well done you


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## smithgareth

8 days to go, and it's started to get difficult again! I thought it would be plain sailing till the end,but then got a cold on Wednesday from my son. He's 16 months now and likes to give me lovely snotty kisses! I've rarely suffered with colds so didn't think twice about it, but on this diet I think energy reserves are a bit low for fighting a cold.
Struggled with core temperature yesterday and today, I have Reynaud's and lost two fingers in my right hand walking to the shop (about 500 yards) with gloves on and according to our temperature thingy it's 12 degrees outside!
Anyway, haven't broken the diet, just had a nice hot bath and put two t-shirts and a jumper on, hopefully feel better in the morning as I'm working this weekend.
Still haven't decided on the menu for my first day of food, so difficult, not because there are so many things I want, but because nothing seems to fit the bill!! The only thing sorted so far is breakfast which will be a poached egg and a small slice of wholemeal toast. Was going to be the egg and two rashers of bacon when I started this diet, but just don't fancy bacon anymore! And when I made my son and my wife toast this morning I realised just how much I missed it!
Anyway, all suggestions considered, hopefully they'll be better than the guys at work who think Donner and chips is the way to end a diet!!


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## Robster65

Hi gareth.

Not long to go now. Keep an eye on things. The feeling cold and suppressed immune system (if it is, or just coincidence) are both potential danger signs, so get thee to a doctor if you feel the need.

If you're fit and well, hang on in there and keep up the reports.

Rob


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## smithgareth

Robster65 said:


> Hi gareth.
> 
> Not long to go now. Keep an eye on things. The feeling cold and suppressed immune system (if it is, or just coincidence) are both potential danger signs, so get thee to a doctor if you feel the need.
> 
> If you're fit and well, hang on in there and keep up the reports.
> 
> Rob



Thanks Rob, gonna see how I am over the weekend. Am finally warm so hopefully it's just the cold making me cold, if that makes any kind of sense!


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## Robster65

I hope so matey.

I know a fair bit about under-eating and the side effects. As long as you're keeping yourself safe.

Rob


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## Katieb

Hi Gareth

I agree with Rob in that if you are struggling and don't feel much better over the weekend, then get yourself off to see the doc. I know you won't want to this close to the end, as I bet you're worried he'll tell you it's the extreme diet causing it! However, it's more important that you keep fit and well - it simply isn't worth making yourself ill just to prove something. You've done incredibly well! On the feeling cold front, I have lost 3 stones and I too feel the cold a lot more than I did. I've had my thyroid tested and all well there. I think it's just losing the  'lard' for me! You're right about taste changing too. I had some pizza last night and felt sick and suffered acid reflux as a result! (Nice, I know!). It was horrible and that'll teach me! Back to chicken, fish, salad and veg for me! Let us know how you get on this week and well done you! Katie


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## Carina1962

KatieB: how did you manage to lose 3 stones?  i am struggling to lose weight even though i excercise and burn off calories at the gym.  I am going to make an appointment to see a dietician - i've tried everything!


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## smithgareth

Feeling much better now, put on an extra layer and I've stayed warm all day. I think the cold is on it's way out, so just 7 days to go.
Have finalised the menu for my first day!
Breakfast: Poached egg and a slice of wholemeal toast
Lunch: Salad with two slices of wiltshire ham
Dinner: Chicken Biryani with Dupiaza sauce!!


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## Katieb

carina62 said:


> KatieB: how did you manage to lose 3 stones?  i am struggling to lose weight even though i excercise and burn off calories at the gym.  I am going to make an appointment to see a dietician - i've tried everything!



Hi Carina

I guess it's different for everyone, but I think I had 2 problems - eating too many carbs and portion size! Like I said, I cut out everything that was a) refined in any way (white flour products), b) anything over 5% fat and c)anything sweet. I also cut out alcohol of any description almost entirely. I gave up bread completely and upped my exercise levels. My meals are fairly predictable ie. porridge or weetbix plus a handful of blueberries, a small banana or apple mid morning, fish, chicken or ham plus salad and a low fat dressing or home made soup (no bread) for lunch and meat or fish, loads of veg and a small portion of new potatoes (2/3 very small ones) or a palm full of wholemeal pasta/noodles with stir fried chicken and veg for dinner. That's it really! I have recently slipped a little and my weight is sticking/moving very slowly! I need to tighten up a bit more! The secret is in planning and preparing meals, then you have less temptation to snack or eat the wrong things. I don't eat anything pre-prepared or out of a tin or packet any more (except tuna, salmon). If I do have a takeaway, I have tandoori chicken and salad with a low fat dressing. Like I said this is what has worked for me but we are all different. See what your dietician recommends. Good luck and ask if I can help with anything. Take care. Katiexx


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## smithgareth

Didn't make it quite to the end, ran completely out of energy over the past few days, had a difficult day at work today with a couple of mistakes. Got home and had really had enough so I've had a slice of toast with a bit of peanut butter. Fell 2 days short of the end, but on the plus side I have lost 3 stone!!
I'm having a glucose tolerance test and bloods taken on Monday so It'll be good to see the results, fingers crossed.


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## HOBIE

Well Well done for trying SMITHGARETH !  Loosing 3 stone aswell speaks for itself


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## Katieb

smithgareth said:


> Didn't make it quite to the end, ran completely out of energy over the past few days, had a difficult day at work today with a couple of mistakes. Got home and had really had enough so I've had a slice of toast with a bit of peanut butter. Fell 2 days short of the end, but on the plus side I have lost 3 stone!!
> I'm having a glucose tolerance test and bloods taken on Monday so It'll be good to see the results, fingers crossed.



I take my hat off to you, Gareth, for getting much further than most would have done and for giving it your best shot! It will be interesting to see your results after the GTT and bloods, so let us know. It will also be interesting to see how your body reacts to 'normality' after the strict regime. I congratulate you for having the guts to give it a go! However, look after yourself if you are still under the weather! Katiex


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## Carina1962

Yes, keep us posted Gareth as we are all interested on the overall outcome of this diet


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## smithgareth

Well it's been an interesting weekend, had a ham and mustard sandwich between two slices of white bread on Saturday and returned a 2 hour glucose of 10.1!! Had a read online and tried a prawn mayo sandwich made with 2 slices of Bergen Soya bread and returned a 2 hour glucose of 6.4!
2 hour post breakfast reads have been very good, between 6.4 and 7.2 eating readybrek, muesli and two poached eggs on a slice of wholemeal toast (not on the same day obviously!!). Evenings have also been good, jacket potato was 5.7, and last nights lasagne came in at 7.6. 
Fasting glucose has risen over the weekend to 6.1 this morning pre a poor glucose tolerance test with a 2 hour read of 12.8, 30 minutes later this was down to 4.9. 
So I'm still a diabetic, didn't quite reach the heady heights of glucose intolerance!! But still very pleased so far. I definitely believe the diet was 100% worthwhile, I'm 3 stone lighter and happy that by excercising self control and watching what I eat I can now control my diabetes using excercise and diet alone. I'm toying with the idea of another 2 weeks of the diet at some point in the near future as I still have a spare tyre, albeit one from a mini rather than my old truck tyre!
I have to be honest, if the doctor had said to me the day I was diagnosed, that there was a medical treatment and it involved following this diet 100% I'm not sure I would have managed it, it's only after 10 years of the trials and tribulations of diabetes that I really appreciate how disruptive diabetes is on my life. So if you've had a few years of difficult blood glucose control and you fancy giving this a go, please read as much as you can on-line then talk to your GP/ Healthcare team. Be ready for an argument, but if you're type 2 and you're carrying a couple of stone I would seriously recommend this diet, it's not gonna cure you but it will change your prospects!!


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## Northerner

Thanks for the update Gareth, it sounds like you have made some big improvements. I hope you have continued success, please keep us informed!


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## trophywench

Well done!

Think your menu is right - you need to keep off the stodge and fatty foods as much as poss to begin with - your tummy will just reject it.  Once in hospital I fell for a cheese omelette immediately after being literally drip-fed for nearly a week and felt bilious for about a week.  Stupid woman that I am.


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## Robster65

You've approached this with a really brilliant attitude and you deserve a huge pat on the back for getting as far as you did.

Pity it didn't give you a break from the high BGs but that side was always going to be a bonus.

If it were me, I'd rather go for the slow and steady approach but each to their own! 

Well done.

Rob


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## smithgareth

Forgot to say, blood pressure 108/70, down from 143/84!!


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## smithgareth

Had an interesting week of normal foods and normalish blood sugars. Fasting bloods climbed a little but seem to have settled at 5.7-6.4ish and I've had a couple of 8.4's 2 hours after food. 
Anyway, I've had time to reflect and sitting in the bath the other night looking at what is still a Buddha tummy I thought hey why not, so as of today I'm back on the diet!!
The target now is 10 and a half stone, I talked to my GP yesterday and he agreed that it's worth a go to see if we see any further improvement. I'm currently at 11 stone 9 pounds having put on 2 pounds in my week off. The benefit of going back on so quickly is that my body will adjust very quickly to the diet and resume fat burning much quicker than if I leave it another few weeks.
We agree 10 and a half stone is too light for someone of my age and height, but also agree that I'm still carrying at least a stone around my middle and that was the reason for the change to a set weight rather than a fixed time. 
The last two stones of weight loss both took 23 days, so homefully if I can match that it won't take too long! I have another OGTT booked for the 2nd April, so will keep you posted.
I know most of you will think I'm mad, but this is it make or break, I can't lose anymore, but would like to see if there is a way to get the OGTT numbers down further.


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## HOBIE

I dont think you are mad !   A very positive person   Keep everyone informed !!


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## smithgareth

Well back on the diet for 3 days now, fasting blood gulose is still coming in just over 6, was a bit suprised that it hasn't dropped to normal yet given that I'd only been off the diet for a week and it hadn't gone particularly high. Must have been the fish and chips I had on Wednesday night!
Am now down to 11 stone 6 pounds so 13 pounds to go. Made a broccoli soup yesterday, large broccoli, black pepper and veg stock, cooked for 15 minutes and then blitzed, very tasty. Gonna make carrot and coriander soup today, after a trip to the gym!


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## Katieb

What do you consider 'normal' Gareth? I think between 5.9 and 6.9 is above 'normal' and above 7 is diabetic levels. Am I right? My readings are usually between 5.5 and 5.8 in the mornings, although I trip into the low 6s occasionally depending on what I eat/monthly cycles etc. I am still seeing these readings after a year of dieting and watching what I eat. I think, for me, that more exercise may be the answer! I have been told I am prediabetic rather than diabetic, but I sometimes wonder Katie


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## smithgareth

Katieb said:


> What do you consider 'normal' Gareth? I think between 5.9 and 6.9 is above 'normal' and above 7 is diabetic levels. Am I right? My readings are usually between 5.5 and 5.8 in the mornings, although I trip into the low 6s occasionally depending on what I eat/monthly cycles etc. I am still seeing these readings after a year of dieting and watching what I eat. I think, for me, that more exercise may be the answer! I have been told I am prediabetic rather than diabetic, but I sometimes wonder Katie



4.7-5.5 was what I achieved through most of the diet, and I just thought I'd drop into that range more rapidly this time, it took a week at the start of the diet.


----------



## smithgareth

5.0 this morning!


----------



## Katieb

What have you done differently to achieve that Gareth? Good result!!  Katie


----------



## smithgareth

Katieb said:


> What have you done differently to achieve that Gareth? Good result!!  Katie



Just being back on the diet!


----------



## Dalaney

Hi I am starting this diet on the 26th March  I have been in touch with my GP who has no problem with me doing it and I am going for pre blood tests next week so we get a bseline to work with. I am only very recently diagnosed but I beleive the eralier you try this diet the better chance of success.  i think what you did Gareth was amazing and I hope I am as successful.  Can I ask what meal replacement you used I was looking at using Exante meal replacements as optifast is not available here.


----------



## smithgareth

Dalaney said:


> Hi I am starting this diet on the 26th March  I have been in touch with my GP who has no problem with me doing it and I am going for pre blood tests next week so we get a bseline to work with. I am only very recently diagnosed but I beleive the eralier you try this diet the better chance of success.  i think what you did Gareth was amazing and I hope I am as successful.  Can I ask what meal replacement you used I was looking at using Exante meal replacements as optifast is not available here.



I used Optislim, which is available on-line at their website, Lloyds pharmacy (on-line) and Amazon. I found the soups grainy, but the shakes (there are 9 different flavours) are very nice, and I do mean that!! I suspect being recently diagnosed will help, it's a good idea to set a date and give yourself a chance of a couple of takeaways and treats before you start. I found day 9 the worst, but got through it. Now been back on it for a week, after a week off and it was much easier to resume than to start from scratch. 
Anyway good luck, and if you need any advice please ask, either on here or PM me. Also looks to be cheaper than Exante


----------



## smithgareth

Saturday proved to be the final day of the diet, I got up in the morning and felt as flat and empty as I had done 17 days before when I finished the diet last time. So I had another 10 days of shakes and I got my weight down to 11 stone 3 pounds and thats gonna be as low as it goes.
I'm gonna get back to running, do some work with the resistance machines and start swimming in an evening now. Next GTT is the end of March, so we'll see whether anything has changed then.
Fasting glucose Sunday morning was 4.8 and today it's 6.1.


----------



## Northerner

Hope you can maintain the weight and good sugar levels Gareth


----------



## HOBIE

Well done for keeping us posted Gareth


----------



## smithgareth

Hi Folks,
fasting glucose continues to be good at between 6.1 and 6.3, with my two hour reads also coming in well at between 4.9 and 7.9. The 7.9 was after a low fat cottage cheese sandwich using Bergen Soya bread and a 100g salad with 0% fat dressing. I had a 6.1 with the same lunch on Tuesday, the only difference being I had a Marks and Spencer wholemeal roll instead of the Soya bread! 
I had salmon, new potatoes, carrots, caulifower, peas and watercress sauce for dinner tonight and it came in at 4.9 2 hours later.
Can't believe how impressed I am with my numbers!!


----------



## Northerner

Numbers are excellent Gareth! Keep it up!


----------



## smithgareth

I had a hectic weekend, with a bit too much to drink, a McDonalds and a pizza night when I eat far too much!! Fasting glucoses on Saturday 8.4. Sunday 8.3, Monday, 7.3 and today 6.4.

Definitely need to learn more self control after a drink, but one drink and the pizza rules went out of the window!


----------



## smithgareth

Well almost a month on and still not taking medication. I've put on a few pounds but still bobbing around 11 stone 10 pounds. Fasting glucoses vary between 6.4 and 7.7, apart from a naughty day which resulted in a 9.9! Daytime reads are good, with +2 hour reads anywhere between 5.7 and 8.2. I'm also running further and faster than I ever have, did 10km for the first time ever on Sunday in 64 minutes 38 seconds and I have to be honest it felt great!! Tonight we've been to the dogs at Brighton and I've had a few pints and scampi and chips and my read is 6.7 which to be quite honest is better than I would have expected before even on medication.

I have developed a binge tendancy which I'm fighting, tends to happen when I've had a drink and my wife has gone to bed. But I've accepted this is very common after such an extreme diet, and I just need to be concious of the risks, recognise the signs of a binge starting and walk away from the kitchen!


----------



## HOBIE

A good read Smithgareth !  Keep posting & us imformed how you are doing


----------



## ando

Very informative Smithgareth, keep it up!

I'm on the Newcastle University Diet now, only ten days in, and it's great to read of someone coming out the other side of it!


----------



## Northerner

ando said:


> Very informative Smithgareth, keep it up!
> 
> I'm on the Newcastle University Diet now, only ten days in, and it's great to read of someone coming out the other side of it!



Hope you succeed Ando, be careful not to miss out on any valuable vitamins and minerals. Has your GP approved of you following the diet?


----------



## smithgareth

ando said:


> Very informative Smithgareth, keep it up!
> 
> I'm on the Newcastle University Diet now, only ten days in, and it's great to read of someone coming out the other side of it!



Hi ando,

go for it, it's the best thing I ever did! I'm still a diabetic, but I'm off my medication (metformin and sitagliptin) for the first time it 12 years!!
Numbers are still good, had pizza last night and fasting read this morning was 7.7.

What are you using? Optifast, Optislim, or slimfast? 

Anyway keep in touch, and keep going!!


----------



## ando

Hi fellow Northerner...
Yes, keeping in weekly contact with practice nurse who keeps doc informed.
They're quite relaxed about it, going in next week to check levels.
Prof Taylor is actually doing a Q&A for doctors next week, which they are going to, so they can learn about it.

Hi Smithgareth...
Take a look at the blog, it's all there. You can let me know if I'm doing anything that I shouldn't!

cheers.


----------



## ando

Thanks for the comments smithgareth, ordered optislim following your suggestion.


----------



## Ellowyne

smithgareth said:


> Hi ando,
> 
> go for it, it's the best thing I ever did! I'm still a diabetic, but I'm off my medication (metformin and sitagliptin) for the first time it 12 years!!
> Numbers are still good, had pizza last night and fasting read this morning was 7.7.
> 
> What are you using? Optifast, Optislim, or slimfast?
> 
> Anyway keep in touch, and keep going!!





Wow...what great will power, congratulations on your fantstic achievements!...I think maybe this might be what I may be looking for, though I have huge amount of weight to lose, I am almost 25 stone now and continue to pile on the pounds!!...I am very immobile, I am stuck in bead, chair or wheelchair all day!!.....It is painful to walk and I have nerve damage in my right leg and foot...My foot flops to one side and I have little feeling in it!....As you might imagine, losing weight is very difficult for me, at least the conventional way!...I think at this time I may need to shift some weight fast...Maybe this might be the answer, or at least worth a try?

Congratulations! and well done!....Love Ellowyne xXx


----------



## ando

Hi Ellowyne,
Read the papers online, the diet sheets, etc & speak to your practice nurse.
I'm 4 weeks in now & (for me) it's a safe way to really shed some pounds.

I don't know about the medication it's suitable for, so check with the professionals.


----------



## Ellowyne

ando said:


> Hi Ellowyne,
> Read the papers online, the diet sheets, etc & speak to your practice nurse.
> I'm 4 weeks in now & (for me) it's a safe way to really shed some pounds.
> 
> I don't know about the medication it's suitable for, so check with the professionals.




Thank you!...Can I ask where I would find the diet sheets and papers to read please?...I am due to see my Dr next week, I am confident that she will approve for me to give this a try...I really have little else options left and, as I mentioned, I know this is not the ideal way to lose weight, but I do feel like my weight is too much to bear and I want to just shift some weight fast!....Then, I will gradually go back to a more healthy diet 

Thank you again, please let me know where to read up on this....Take care, Ellowyne xXx


----------



## Ellowyne

I Found the link to Study!....Thank you!


----------



## bellx15

Good luck, Ellowyne - I hope it works for you. 

What exactly is the diet they followed? Any links to that, please?


----------



## ando

Easiest thing is to read my blog.
I saw the nurse yesterday, 24 days in and 2 stone lost...


----------



## Ellowyne

ando said:


> Easiest thing is to read my blog.
> I saw the nurse yesterday, 24 days in and 2 stone lost...



I've Just been reading you great Blog!....Really gives me motivation to try this! Thank you Ando, I look forward to reading more! Ellowyne x


----------



## ando

Update on the Diet...
Just updated the blog...
6.5 weeks into the NU Diet, all readings are normal, metformin reduced to one now stopped on doctors instruction, 1.5 weeks to go.
Cholesterol, sugars, liver function etc all normal, need to go back in 3 months for a full blood test again.
45lb lost so far (in 45 days).


----------



## Northerner

ando said:


> Update on the Diet...
> Just updated the blog...
> 6.5 weeks into the NU Diet, all readings are normal, metformin reduced to one now stopped on doctors instruction, 1.5 weeks to go.
> Cholesterol, sugars, liver function etc all normal, need to go back in 3 months for a full blood test again.
> 45lb lost so far (in 45 days).



I was just wondering how you were getting on ando, well done on all you have achieved, that must take some serious willpower!  Good luck for the remainder of the diet and hope you get some good numbers in 3 months - keep us updated!


----------



## bellx15

Well done you!!

I'd just like to ask what you see as the essential thing about this diet. Is it simply the 800 calories?

And do you do regular exercise?


----------



## ando

Yes, stick to the Optifast x 3 times a day and 250ml of home made veg soup a day basically, some light exercise but you won't have energy for any more!
All looking good, been off meds for just over a week, daily blood sugars consistently '5' so happy.
I can end this at the weekend so I'm looking forward to a little toast and eggs (and all other 'real' food) - in moderation of course.


----------



## Northerner

ando said:


> Yes, stick to the Optifast x 3 times a day and 250ml of home made veg soup a day basically, some light exercise but you won't have energy for any more!
> All looking good, been off meds for just over a week, daily blood sugars consistently '5' so happy.
> I can end this at the weekend so I'm looking forward to a little toast and eggs (and all other 'real' food) - in moderation of course.



I'll be interested to hear if/how the toast affects you ando. Enjoy it, you've certainly earned it!


----------



## bellx15

Well done.

I think I am going to have to intensify the D&E program, as this metformin is making me feel awful. I can't stay on it.


----------



## ando

Northerner said:


> I'll be interested to hear if/how the toast affects you ando. Enjoy it, you've certainly earned it!



All good thanks.

I've had a low carb/low calorie diet for the last few days now...
Sticking to 1500 calories/190g carb per day to see how it goes. Blood sugar for the last ten days has remained '5', so looking good.


----------



## bellx15

The thing for me is that I just haven't lost any weight, despite lots of exercise and a calorie-restricted diet. So without losing any fat from my middle I can't really expect to improve my glucose level. I am definitely not fat, but I do have a bit extra around the middle. 

Must try harder!


----------



## smithgareth

Just in case anyone is considering this diet as an option, Optislim have an offer on of buy one get one free on their website at the moment.

Just had my latest review and my HB1 is 6.2


----------



## ando

smithgareth said:


> Just in case anyone is considering this diet as an option, Optislim have an offer on of buy one get one free on their website at the moment.
> 
> Just had my latest review and my HB1 is 6.2



Great news.
And to add my bit... I took SG's advice and went for Optislim and found it really good - delivered no problem, and tasted great. Give it a go!


----------



## ando

An update to my posts above...

It's now over three months since I finished the diet, had my 3 month test and all normal, so I've gone from having type 2 and being on Metformin to no meds, lost 4 stone and just eating healthy normal diet.

I'm happy, nurse happy, woo - and also - hoo!

Anyone reading this and considering it--- GIVE IT A GO!


----------



## Northerner

ando said:


> An update to my posts above...
> 
> It's now over three months since I finished the diet, had my 3 month test and all normal, so I've gone from having type 2 and being on Metformin to no meds, lost 4 stone and just eating healthy normal diet.
> 
> I'm happy, nurse happy, woo - and also - hoo!
> 
> Anyone reading this and considering it--- GIVE IT A GO!



That's terrific news Ando, well done!  Remember, it's not a cure, so keep up the good work and stay healthy!


----------



## Andy HB

Northerner said:


> That's terrific news Ando, well done!  Remember, it's not a cure, so keep up the good work and stay healthy!



Here, here!!

Long may it continue. Well done Ando.

Andy


----------



## HOBIE

Good news you 2 !   It is nice to read some possitive stuff.


----------



## smithgareth

Well it's been over a year since my last post and a lot of water has gone under the bridge. It's been a busy time, I lost my job in August 2012, put on weight and didn't really look after myself. Drank too much and didn't exercise. By September my blood sugar control had gone and I was back on Metformin and Sitagliptin.
In November I got back to work, new job and getting better with exercise, eating and drinking.
Then in February my son had a febrile convulsion, scared me witless. He followed this with another three fits and this got me thinking about life again and basically made me realise I need to be around for him.
So 10 days ago I went back on the diet and I found this thread again. 
It was quite a shock to reread what I wrote back then, how I felt and the positive messages from everyone.
Anyway I started at 14 stone 5 pounds (1 pound more than I was when I started this journey in January 2012. My fasting read was a wopping 9.6!
10 days in and i'm tipping the scales at 13 stone 9 pounds and my fasting read this morning was 7.1.
Did anyone else give this diet a go? I'm wondering what happened to Aldo, who had tremendous results through his diet and whether he managed to keep his numbers and weight in check?
Anyway glad to be back around,
Gareth


----------



## LeeLee

Well done for getting back into gear.  It really is worth it!  

My own choice of diet isn't ultra-low calorie, but somethig that's achieveable for ME for the rest of my life.  So far I've lost nearly 6 stone in 13 months with Slimming World, and I'm healthier than I've ever been.  I fully intend to carry on with it even after I get to where I want to be - it's free once you reach target, provided you stay within 3 lbs of that target.


----------



## smithgareth

Hi LeeLee what a fantastic result!! That must have had an amazing effect on how you feel. I know how hard work losing weight is, I was diagnosed at 17 stone, dropped to 13 and a half stone by diet and exercise and then bumbled on. My biggest problem is bad habits, takeaways when I've had a bad day at work and red wine at the weekend. I get into the habit of exercising then fall out of it just as quick!! Need to find some lasting willpower.
Well done


----------



## smithgareth

3 weeks in and 16 pounds down, blood sugar this morning 5.8. Comparing to last time, my weight loss is slower, at the same stage last time I had lost 19 pounds!


----------



## LeeLee

Slow and steady gets you there.  It should also make maintenance that bit easier once you reach your goal.  Well done on your fantastic loss so far, and do add it to the Total 2013 thread.


----------



## WebMan

To all you guys in this thread who have managed to stick to this, I'm so inspired to sort my own problem out.

Definitely a thread that needs keeping alive, as I'm sure theres many other people out there who are interested in seeing this.

I started this yesterday using the Tesco Ultraslim shakes instead of the optislim, so early days but I'm hoping to maybe add to the above stories and make some sort of improvement. I'm waiting on some more test strips as I'm running low, but have enough to give some basics. The shakes I've had so far are the Mango Smoothie, and the Chocolate Milkshake, and made up including the orange juice and milk respectively are supposed to come to 202 calories. 

Yesterday had 2 of these shakes breakfast and lunch, and 125g of broccoli and cauliflower for dinner with a shake. Boring, not quite satisfying, but the shake was slightly more satiating. The veg was vastly improved with a slight addition of nandos peri peri chip sprinkle, but I think  I gave it slightly too long in the microwave as it came out slightly more chewy than I'd hoped! 

So 2-3 years ago I was diagnosed as type 2, but due to being young and stupid and enjoying beer and kebabs too much to give up for my long term health, I put on weight, enjoyed myself and thought little to the future.

I'm not overweight particularly, and am fairly muscular, as I used to train a bit whilst in my teens, but I now hold a lot of fat around my stomach, chest and back. My sugars have sometimes been high, and previously I've been put on 2 x 500mg metformin, but I don't wish to be on these any more.

Yesterday morning had a fasting BG of 13.1mmol, and this went up 2hours post shake to 14.3.

I know this is high, but I know that very quickly I'll start to see differences once I've maintained some sort of diet and introduced exercise. I know this because I've seen similar changes before within days, where it drops to semi reasonable levels, if not within the recommended range.

Hope to be able to emulate similar progress as all the other guys, and if I'm able to stop it, and bring my sugars back to normal levels, all the more better. If I don't, then I have no choice but to go on insulin, or metformin, but whilst I'm still young and relatively newly diagnosed, I may as well try and sort it.

All the best guys.


----------



## Northerner

WebMan said:


> Hope to be able to emulate similar progress as all the other guys, and if I'm able to stop it, and bring my sugars back to normal levels, all the more better. If I don't, then I have no choice but to go on insulin, or metformin, but whilst I'm still young and relatively newly diagnosed, I may as well try and sort it.
> 
> All the best guys.



Wishing you the very best of luck Webman! Let us know how things go for you


----------



## WebMan

Thank you for the kind words. Fingers crossed. 

So it's been 1.5 days, and I've stuck to this so far religiously - through all 1.5 days mind!

Had a moment just now at work where I was craving food like crazy - doesn't help that I work for a food company!  But just went and had my shake, and 10 minutes later I now feel slightly less heady, and am able to concentrate a bit better. I'm always hyper though so I'm not concerned about going too low. If anything it's probably just my body and brain adjusting to not being suffocated by sugar!

I must admit, within the space of about half a day yesterday I began to feel slightly cold (as gareth did in before in this thread), but I always get this when I clean up my diet so I'm not worried.

I'm a bit extremes as only 3 months ago I ran a 10k (albeit just over 1hr), and then after it kinda let my diet slip again - hitting the beers every friday, plus a curry without fail, plus lots of really nice and indulgent food at home... Never overly greasy, but certainly not healthy. 

Was smoking for 5 years at 10 a day up till 4 months ago, which was just stupid - but over that now. In line with this extremeness in what I do - now that I've started, I'll do this to the letter. And now that I'm making a promise to add my story to these guys above it'll give me a little nudge any time I feel like lapsing. 

Would be quite nice to get updates from those who did this before to see how you guys are getting on either way??


----------



## Northerner

You might be interested in the following:

http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Research...t/Research-spotlight-low-calorie-liquid-diet/


----------



## WebMan

Northerner said:


> You might be interested in the following:
> 
> http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Research...t/Research-spotlight-low-calorie-liquid-diet/



That was definitely an interesting read - will be good to see the results in 2018. Thank you for linking. 

Apologies, but I'm thinking to provide (somewhat) daily updates on how I'm going, so please let me know if I'm posting too much or it's just babble that's clogging the thread and I'll cut it down.

At the moment I've not got any glucose test strips, but I have 50 that should be arriving in the post today so will update tonight if they arrive, but at least yesterdays results were positive. I was slightly worried given how high my sugar was that I was in danger of ketones, so purchased some B-Ketone strips, which (thankfully) came out at 0.4mmol before training, and 0.2mmol after. So all good there.

Must admit so far so good - stuck to the shakes (tesco ultraslim shakes do taste wonderful - esp the mango in orange juice), and last night wilted a handful of spinach, and a couple of cauliflower and broccoli florets, and to provide some flavour, made some homemade salsa which was really easy and didn't contain any added sugars or carb-aceous ingredients, but without which dinner would've been a chore. So still sticking to the advised diet.

Todays day 3, and last night, did a 1km run just to test the waters on these energy levels, and 3x12 chest press and 3x12 raised leg stomach crunches (if thats even what its called!), and felt ok. Could've run longer but want to ease into training.

I know the key for me will be to not get bored of dinner when I have veg. If I can find things to mix up for flavour, sticking to this will be a cinch (fingers crossed I've not just jinxed it!).


----------



## Northerner

WebMan said:


> That was definitely an interesting read - will be good to see the results in 2018. Thank you for linking.
> 
> Apologies, but I'm thinking to provide (somewhat) daily updates on how I'm going, so please let me know if I'm posting too much or it's just babble that's clogging the thread and I'll cut it down.
> 
> At the moment I've not got any glucose test strips, but I have 50 that should be arriving in the post today so will update tonight if they arrive, but at least yesterdays results were positive. I was slightly worried given how high my sugar was that I was in danger of ketones, so purchased some B-Ketone strips, which (thankfully) came out at 0.4mmol before training, and 0.2mmol after. So all good there.



Post as often as you wish, there are no restrictions and I am sure people will benefit from reading about your experiences - hopefully it will also help to keep you motivated!

Regarding ketones - don't worry about them. You will get dietary ketones as your body uses your stores of body fat for energy - ketones are a by-product of this process. However, they only really become a problem if associated with blood glucose levels in the high teens - this would indicate that you don't have sufficient insulin circulating, and is usually only a problem for those who have to inject insulin. In your case your own pancreas should supply sufficient insulin.


----------



## WebMan

Northerner said:


> Post as often as you wish, there are no restrictions and I am sure people will benefit from reading about your experiences - hopefully it will also help to keep you motivated!
> 
> Regarding ketones - don't worry about them. You will get dietary ketones as your body uses your stores of body fat for energy - ketones are a by-product of this process. However, they only really become a problem if associated with blood glucose levels in the high teens - this would indicate that you don't have sufficient insulin circulating, and is usually only a problem for those who have to inject insulin. In your case your own pancreas should supply sufficient insulin.



I think it will definitely keep me more on track than I would otherwise... My brain is starting to emulate the tastes and flavours of all the foods I used to enjoy; I can actually taste whatever food I end up thinking of at the time!

This morning was tasting lamb sheekh kebabs and buttered naans - so very wrong! But now I'm framing it in terms of whilst it tastes good on the palate, what it must be doing to the cogs internally - I imagine the oil that runs from it and imagine that surrounding (in particular) my pancreas and liver, basting it in a sticky, suffocating  glue.

I was worried about ketones because my BG has been up to 16-18 before; also had a slight fruity breath & sweating smell that is associated with ketones. However, today this has subsided very significantly, and along with my lower test result on the ketone strips I feel this should go away in the next day or two - if it returns I'll definitely visit a GP - I understand how serious DKA can be.


----------



## smithgareth

Well it's two years since I completed the diet first time round, brought my blood sugars and weight down fantastically then lost my way. I gave it another go last year and got to 4 weeks. 
Congratulations to anyone who wants to give this diet a go, it's hard work at times, but there is always water in the tap and it's amazing how much a small glass of water helps with hunger pangs.
I've read a lot about the diet and kept track of developments since and it's interesting that there is now a lot more advice around about how to maintain weight loss and keep on track. 
The best bits of advice I've seen are:
1) 800 calories a day, 2 days a week
2) Weigh yourself once a week, write it down and if you go up two pounds increase the exercise, no treats and 800 calories for 3 days.
3) Treat yourself, go out, have a meal, eat what you like, but always, always pay back, exercise a little more and eat a little less the following day
4) Check your blood sugar and react, don't just accept bad readings, go for a walk, have salad instead of chips 
5) If you feel down, fall off the wagon, feel like it's pointless then check your fasting blood glucose (It's probably high). 800 calories a day for 3-4 days and I guarantee you'll feel better.

My blood glucose was 6.0 this morning, 5.4 this afternoon after a trip to the park with my son. I'm still on Metformin (4 a day), but I feel good and it keeps my sugars under control.
Good luck and keep us posted


----------



## WebMan

smithgareth said:


> 1) 800 calories a day, 2 days a week
> 2) Weigh yourself once a week, write it down and if you go up two pounds increase the exercise, no treats and 800 calories for 3 days.
> 3) Treat yourself, go out, have a meal, eat what you like, but always, always pay back, exercise a little more and eat a little less the following day
> 4) Check your blood sugar and react, don't just accept bad readings, go for a walk, have salad instead of chips
> 5) If you feel down, fall off the wagon, feel like it's pointless then check your fasting blood glucose (It's probably high). 800 calories a day for 3-4 days and I guarantee you'll feel better.



Hey, thanks for updating; good to hear that the sugars are under control and thanks for the tips.

Definitely agree with the water, am going through 3 liters a day and it's crucial to keeping hunger away.

I had a couple of questions though...

Is there any reason why this diet wouldn't work in reducing sugars? I just tested my bloods, fasting (bar 3 tic tacs on my commute in - I have breakfast at work), which came out at 15.4mmol. 

I don't understand why it's still so high as I've been sticking to the diet to the letter... It's now my 4th day (or is this too soon to see any real changes?)

Was hoping for at least around the 10ish mark... Could it be this salsa I made (tomato based, higher in sugar?) is causing it to rise? Bar that I've only had the shakes and a small amount of veg...

Does eating lower BG? I'm sometimes not having my breakfast shake, then  a lunch shake at 1pm, but compensating later in the evening with a later (9pm ish) shake, and a tea time shake when I get home (5pm)... Could this be causing my bloods to rise?

How often were you measuring your bloods, and out of them, which would you say is the most important to use as a measure (fasting in the morning I presume?)?

I feel infinitely better; I have more energy, I feel happier and less irritable and a bit more at peace over the last few days so thats a plus, and I've lost maybe 1kg or so...maybe it'll take more time for BG to noticeably fall..?

Many thanks,


----------



## Carmina

I've been wondering about doing the diet using meal replacement drinks but their sugar content worries me. I'm currently on a low-carb diet and my BG readings are very good but I'd love to be able to stop taking the Metformin because it's causing a couple of problems. In addition I've still got quite a lot of weight to lose and my loss has slowed down now (Although it's still around 1lb a week so I should be happy)

Would the sugar in the drinks send my BG higher? If so, would it settle after a while? I can't quite work out how using something with such a high carb content would help. 

I did consider trying the drinks for a day a monitoring like crazy, but would I need to give it a longer test?


----------



## smithgareth

It can take up to a fortnight for you BG to drop into the 'normal' range, and the day it does you will know!! You'll feel very out of sorts, lethargic and odd! It will also drop suddenly. I dropped gradually during the first week, but I suppose it depends on your starting blood glucose, medication etc.
I would say that missing breakfast doesn't seem like a great idea, I had a shake for breakfast at 7-8am, salad between 11 and 12, 2nd shake between 2 and 3, vegetables between 5 and 6 and then my final meal was my evening shake between 8 and 9pm. That way you keep your intake very level, helps the body to normalise.
In answer to the question on sugars, yes they are high at up to 25g, but as you are not taking any carbs, fat or protein, your body deals with them exceptionally well. From about week 3 my post shake readings were all sub 8.0.
Looked at the Tesco's ultraslim shakes and they look very similar to the Optislim ones, good flavours and good price!
I used tomatoes to make soup and also in my non-shepard shepards pie! I also lived on cauliflower curry which is very easy to make and very filling.
Any questions please do ask, good luck and keep going!
PS lose the Tic tacs and get some Extra gum, gives your mouth something to chew on
Gareth


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## smithgareth

Oh and the fasting glucose is the one that really matters at this stage, thats the one that indicates your improving control


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## WebMan

smithgareth said:


> It can take up to a fortnight for you BG to drop into the 'normal' range, and the day it does you will know!! You'll feel very out of sorts, lethargic and odd! It will also drop suddenly. I dropped gradually during the first week, but I suppose it depends on your starting blood glucose, medication etc.
> I would say that missing breakfast doesn't seem like a great idea, I had a shake for breakfast at 7-8am, salad between 11 and 12, 2nd shake between 2 and 3, vegetables between 5 and 6 and then my final meal was my evening shake between 8 and 9pm. That way you keep your intake very level, helps the body to normalise.
> In answer to the question on sugars, yes they are high at up to 25g, but as you are not taking any carbs, fat or protein, your body deals with them exceptionally well. From about week 3 my post shake readings were all sub 8.0.
> Looked at the Tesco's ultraslim shakes and they look very similar to the Optislim ones, good flavours and good price!
> I used tomatoes to make soup and also in my non-shepard shepards pie! I also lived on cauliflower curry which is very easy to make and very filling.
> Any questions please do ask, good luck and keep going!
> PS lose the Tic tacs and get some Extra gum, gives your mouth something to chew on
> Gareth



Hey Gareth,

Thanks so much for the reply and advice.

So far so good - weight down from 84.2kg on Monday morning to 80.9kg this morning, feeling a little slimmer definitely. Back into 34R waist trousers!

Noticed that by leaving my shake till later, my ketones do rise - this morning before my morning shake was 1.0mmol, but I had quite an intense training session last night, but 1.5 hrs after drinking my shake this morning for breakfast it was back down to 0.3mmol. To be honest, first time it's gone up as high as 1.0mmol - not sure if this is something to be worried about, or whether its just a response to training, as every other fasting one has been a max of 0.5-0.6mmol. Am definitely going to start maintaining a morning shake from here - i imagine it has a similar effect on my BG, as my liver may pump out more glucose until I eat.

Still waiting on my glucose strips, but will maintain training and diet till they arrive (either today/tomorrow).

Thanks for the recipe ideas - the shepherd's pie sounds great! (don't happen to have a link to recipe or is it your own recipe?) 

I've kind of gotten into the impression that it was supposed to be shakes during the day, then 150g of veg in the evening - so I've literally been steaming 150g of veg in a steamer, shaking a slightly sprinkle of salt, and throwing on some salsa - that's been 3 of my dinners this week. The intenseness of the salsa is helping, but it will become a drag sooner rather than later.

Any other recipes you can recommend?? Is it more about a meal that is 200 cals, whether that be from a handful of veg, or from a square inch of quiche?!

What about Quinoa? This recipe looks quite nice that could be adapted, and would be warm and flavoursome and different at least http://skinnyms.com/skinny-quinoa-skillet-supper/

Also, another question - is there any leeway for days off? For example, what with valentines coming up, wondering whether theres any sort of restrictions, or if by having a bigger-ish meal (not overly crazy) would reset the work done prior? Or if it just needs to be offset the next days/weeks afterwards? Any advice on what to stay away from? Is meat allowed at all as a one off? Caesar salad without dressing/chicken? 

Many thanks.
Kev


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## smithgareth

Hi Kev,
There are some great links on the this page http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm
I'd have a good read, they recommend 250g of vegetables each day split into 3 portions, I preferred to split them into 2 portions.
The whole point is to limit intake of carbs, proteins and fats, so I would be inclined to stick to shakes, vegetables and salads. Optislim now do 200 calorie meal bars, Slimfast also do an equivalent bar. They have very similar contents to the shakes.
I personally would avoid days off, I believe from the paper that it takes 3 weeks to get up to maximum fat burning and I would guess that days off would push that back.
I figured it was just 8 weeks of my life and if I stuck to my guns it could change my life for ever!
The non-shepards pie is quite easy:
250g of chopped mushrooms, one chopped onion, three carrots peeled and diced, 2 beef oxo cubes, 1 tin of chopped tomatoes, 2 cloves of garlic, a splash of worcester sauce, salt and pepper to taste and about 250g of grated uncooked cauliflower.
Dry fry the onions and garlic in a non stick pan, add the mushrooms and cook for a few minutes, then add the tomatoes, carrots and worcester sauce. Mix the oxo cubes with 200ml of boiling water and add to the pan. Cook on a medium heat for 10-15 minutes. Taste and add salt and pepper as you like. Tip the mix into a pyrex dish and cover with grated cauliflower. Pop it in the oven at 180 degrees C for 15 minutes and serve. You should get 3 servings out of this,
Good luck and keep going!!


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## WebMan

smithgareth said:


> Hi Kev,
> There are some great links on the this page http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm
> I'd have a good read, they recommend 250g of vegetables each day split into 3 portions, I preferred to split them into 2 portions.
> The whole point is to limit intake of carbs, proteins and fats, so I would be inclined to stick to shakes, vegetables and salads. Optislim now do 200 calorie meal bars, Slimfast also do an equivalent bar. They have very similar contents to the shakes.
> I personally would avoid days off, I believe from the paper that it takes 3 weeks to get up to maximum fat burning and I would guess that days off would push that back.
> I figured it was just 8 weeks of my life and if I stuck to my guns it could change my life for ever!
> The non-shepards pie is quite easy:
> 250g of chopped mushrooms, one chopped onion, three carrots peeled and diced, 2 beef oxo cubes, 1 tin of chopped tomatoes, 2 cloves of garlic, a splash of worcester sauce, salt and pepper to taste and about 250g of grated uncooked cauliflower.
> Dry fry the onions and garlic in a non stick pan, add the mushrooms and cook for a few minutes, then add the tomatoes, carrots and worcester sauce. Mix the oxo cubes with 200ml of boiling water and add to the pan. Cook on a medium heat for 10-15 minutes. Taste and add salt and pepper as you like. Tip the mix into a pyrex dish and cover with grated cauliflower. Pop it in the oven at 180 degrees C for 15 minutes and serve. You should get 3 servings out of this,
> Good luck and keep going!!



Many thanks for the recipe - made a veg hotpot which used similar ingredients as above, with a few non starchy additions - absolutely lovely, and great wholesome food.

I had a bit of a wobbly one this weekend as went round my sisters for their kids party, and in the rush to get there forgot to bring my shakes with me. Instead, nipped into costco on the way and bought some maximuscle protein shakes with 135 cals in each bottle, which tided me over till I got home.

This mornings fasting BG down to 13.1, so a bit better - getting there but still a while to go - will be starting a new training program this evening though, so looking forward to seeing how that impacts things. 

You're right about the days off - if I'm going to do it, might as well do it properly. Not so sure what choices that leaves us for Valentines day dinner but we'll figure something out.

Many thanks again for the advice and support.


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## WebMan

Feel great this morning; week 2 officially began yesterday - waking BG was 13.1, and after eating was about 14.4 ish over the 3 meals.

Had an intense workout last night - it felt intense anyway (3km run, and a mixture of legs and upper body weights), and woke this morning feeling good. Had a premixed protein shake (135kcal instead of an ultraslim) on my way to the station, but didn't have time to measure BG upon waking - it was this shake to be exact

Then just got into work about 20 minutes ago, an hour after drinking that shake, and just now my BG was 11.3mmol/l, and ketones 0.2mmol - this is a smallish movement, but it feels like over the next week or 2 I will begin to see results in single digits (I hope). I just hope that the weight won't pile straight back on once im finished with this - hence Gareth's tips above to maintain will be good to use once I'm done - keeping the motivation still though. Managed to stand on the scales quickly this morning to 80.4kg - lightest I've been in about 4 years!

In terms of appetite, I love how I feel after veg - even if it's a hotpot, and might be the full 250g portion in one dinner in the evening, but my digestive system has never felt better, and I now actively look forward to a veg hotpot/casserole type dish, and will be making a fresh batch tonight.

Alongside these shakes, and veg I am taking a multivit every day (sometimes every other), alongside a calcium and magnesium supplement just in case - some of the vits in the shakes are slightly less than 100% RDA so no harm in topping up - not like I'm overdoing the vitamins.

Still Im also maintaining 3liters water a day - it's staving off the hunger and my skins much clearer.


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## Northerner

Sounds like you are getting many encouraging benefits, good news  If you're using blood ketone strips I'd be inclined to change them for urine strips as they are a lot cheaper and you could just use a blood ketone strip if something alarming showed up in the urine.


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## WebMan

This mornings fasting BG was 14.9, had my shake as per yesterday, and got into work and gone up to 16.7. Very disappointed, but I didn't train last night, and might've overdone it slightly on last nights bowl of veg casserole - need to strip back to being absolutely strict and to the letter. Weight is still down at 80.6kg this morning, so getting there. Just disappointed with the readings this morning. But it's made me more determined to reset it, and strip back a bit more - will cut out the protein shakes I have first thing, and replace it with an ultraslim shake, and have my lunchtime and evening shake, with 250g measured and weighed plain veg without the trimmings. Will also be training tonight, will try and get up to 4 or even 5lkm.

I'm very determined to see results here, and a poor result this morning has only reinforced that and stopped any complacency that may have been creeping in.


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## Northerner

WebMan said:


> This mornings fasting BG was 14.9, had my shake as per yesterday, and got into work and gone up to 16.7. Very disappointed, but I didn't train last night, and might've overdone it slightly on last nights bowl of veg casserole - need to strip back to being absolutely strict and to the letter. Weight is still down at 80.6kg this morning, so getting there. Just disappointed with the readings this morning. But it's made me more determined to reset it, and strip back a bit more - will cut out the protein shakes I have first thing, and replace it with an ultraslim shake, and have my lunchtime and evening shake, with 250g measured and weighed plain veg without the trimmings. Will also be training tonight, will try and get up to 4 or even 5lkm.
> 
> I'm very determined to see results here, and a poor result this morning has only reinforced that and stopped any complacency that may have been creeping in.



I'm a little concerned that your fasting levels are still in the teens - that rise after breakfast is actually quite small, but you started from a high level. You said earlier that you used to be on metformin, are you still taking it, or did you stop taking it when you started the diet? Although you are doing well with things it looks as though you could do with the support of some medication, at least for now.

You also said that you are not particularly overweight. I'm wondering if there is a possibility of you not actually being Type 2, but a slow-onset Type 1 (also known as LADA - Latent Autoimmune Diabetes in Adulthood aka Type 1.5). Around 5-10% of adults diagnosed Type 2 turn out to be Type 1.5. It's something you might want to run past your GP as there are tests that can help determine this.


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## WebMan

I used to be on metformin, but decided to stop it when my prescription ran out, partly due to the fact it didn't quite sit right with me, and partly because I wanted to use going off it to prompt myself into sorting it, but it took a while to actually take the plunge.

I'll monitor it the rest of this week, and if it remains on trend without dipping then I'll get a blood test done. Last night I put a (probably larger than wise) handful of peanuts into my casserole for flavour when I got home from work after a 14 hour day, which I'm disappointed about, so I think based on previous posts that I've been on trend, and simply this has been a mistake by me.

I'd hate to start meds if it was a self inflicted anomaly and actually I was on track to see results. I probably have set it back a day or two, but no biggie, I'm still feeling better and slimmer so all this has done is strengthened my resolve.


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## WebMan

I'd also add, yeah I guess for my height and build I'm probably not 'overweight' perse, but I'm definitely FAT. I hold a lot of fat around my stomach, chest and back in particular which is masking this overweightness. Under the fat I am muscular, but this is under a thick layer of fat; around my stomach for instance I can grab and hold the fat between my finger and thumb... (could I be much more scientific?!). So whilst you might look at me and go 'yeah you're a tad chubby not fat' with clothes on, underneath you'd go, 'ah I see it's all been hidden in those particular areas', which is helped by areas that conceal it in clothing. Just for context.


EDIT: About 30 mins ago I remeasured - back down to 12.9. Will be interesting to see how it is before/after lunch shake.


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## Northerner

WebMan said:


> I'd also add, yeah I guess for my height and build I'm probably not 'overweight' perse, but I'm definitely FAT. I hold a lot of fat around my stomach, chest and back in particular which is masking this overweightness. Under the fat I am muscular, but this is under a thick layer of fat; around my stomach for instance I can grab and hold the fat between my finger and thumb... (could I be much more scientific?!). So whilst you might look at me and go 'yeah you're a tad chubby not fat' with clothes on, underneath you'd go, 'ah I see it's all been hidden in those particular areas', which is helped by areas that conceal it in clothing. Just for context.
> 
> 
> EDIT: About 30 mins ago I remeasured - back down to 12.9. Will be interesting to see how it is before/after lunch shake.



Sounds like the old 'visceral fat' problem, where the fat surrounds the liver, pancreas etc. and contributes to insulin resistance. Hopefully, the diet will help improve things


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## WebMan

Northerner said:


> Sounds like the old 'visceral fat' problem, where the fat surrounds the liver, pancreas etc. and contributes to insulin resistance. Hopefully, the diet will help improve things



Hopefully it is just that, but it will be worth keeping an eye on this LADA thing.. Many thanks for your support.

So I had lunch at 2pm, which was a shake, and just measured my BG after arriving home 10 mins ago, and had my first single digits!

9.4! 

Now I appreciate that it was 5 hours since eating, but it was great to get my first under 10 reading, and it serves as motivation if nothing else.

Also weighed myself - first under 80kg I've had in a while - 79.6kg!

Now to train (will aim for a 5k today), where I'll measure post training, then post meal. Will update.


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## Northerner

All sounding good!  I will look forward to your updates!


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## WebMan

Just did 3.5km run at 8km/hr, and did an assorted 3x12 sets of various upper body and weighted crunches.

BG just now was 7.8mmol. Will update again post dinner shake (will also be having veg, but controlled and measured 250g).

EDIT: had my veg and shake, went up to 11.1, but if thats post food then it's definitely trending in the right direction (but also only been 40 mins since food). Looking forward to how the fasting one will be


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## WebMan

Fasting BG this morning at 12.7, and after breakfast shake, went back up to 13.2,  which is lower than yesterdays (14.9, and 16.7 respectively).


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## Bloden

LeeLee said:


> Well done for getting back into gear.  It really is worth it!
> 
> My own choice of diet isn't ultra-low calorie, but somethig that's achieveable for ME for the rest of my life.  So far I've lost nearly 6 stone in 13 months with Slimming World, and I'm healthier than I've ever been.  I fully intend to carry on with it even after I get to where I want to be - it's free once you reach target, provided you stay within 3 lbs of that target.



6st! That's amazing. You must feel great. Congrats.


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## HOBIE

Hi Gareth, pleased to see you back.  sounds like you have had a bit of do job wise. Please keep at it & let us know how you are getting on with this


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## WebMan

Blood sugar this evening before my meal was 8.7mmol - had my veg meal and 2 hours later it is now 8.1mmol. Seems a bit more like it!

Went for a 3k run this morning with some HIIT and did bench weights as well.


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## Northerner

WebMan said:


> Blood sugar this evening before my meal was 8.7mmol - had my veg meal and 2 hours later it is now 8.1mmol. Seems a bit more like it!
> 
> Went for a 3k run this morning with some HIIT and did bench weights as well.



That's great - looks like things are really moving along now!


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## Carmina

Okay, I've made the decision to at least try out the drinks from Tesco and see how my FBG is a couple of hours afterwards. I'm not sure I want to know what's happening within an hour of having one and as it's the overall levels that matter, I'll take the chance. So I've set Friday as the 'trial' day and if it's okay I'll just carry on from there. 

I've worked out how to fit the drinks and veg into my days so I feel prepared for it. The only difficulty coming up is that I've got 2 weekends away booked - one at the end of March and one mid-April - but by then I should have a clearer idea of how it's going to work for me. I'm not sure I'm happy about having to forego 2 hotel buffet breakfasts but we'll see ... (Although if the food on these 2 breaks is anything like we were offered on our last weekend in Blackpool, the Tesco drinks are sure to be better! )


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## Northerner

Good luck Carmina! I hope it goes well for you


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## smithgareth

Hi Carmina, 
good luck tomorrow, the post shake reads might be quite high at first, it does take a while for your body to get used to them. I think it can take anything up to two weeks for your blood glucose to 'normalise' hate that word!! My fasting glucose today was 6.1, still on Metformin, but very stable these days. 
Any update from Webman?


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## WebMan

Hey Carmina, all the best with it - what I would say is that if you go for the tesco ones, go for the sachets which are in the boxes - the premade shakes in a bottle cause my BG to rapidly rise over and above what the sachets do - might be due to the way they've made them up? Don't know, but I do know I definitely see a much bigger rise after the premade shakes compared with making my own. 

I bought these to try out, and also to have first thing in the morning as I can grab and go, and not have to worry about mixing my own, and cleaning out my shaker), but I think once they run out (last 2 left) I'll go to making the effort and mixing my own.

Also, I'd definitely recommend the chocolate, fruity raspberry, and vanilla flavours (if you make this in whole milk (oops!) and shake well in a protein blender, or a normal blender perhaps, the shake will taste like vanilla ice cream - very yum indeed). If you do go for the premade I'd recommend the banoffee, the chocolate, choc & cherry, and vanilla fudge. All of them are premade in milk, so the fruit based, non milky, or citrusy flavours just taste unnatural in the milk base. All subjective and personal but hey.

Gareth, good to hear that it's stable and within range... have things now settled down otherwise in your life? Is the weight still off? 

As for my sugar readings, all still on track - I'm keeping on point with the shakes, so have been having one in the morning, and one at lunch time, and notice that my sugar is more stable. 

Fasting BG has remained stable between 9-10, but I put this simply down to the fact that I've been really busy this week with work, so I haven't trained. Also when I've gotten home I've sometimes given into temptation and eaten a bit more than I should have, with more veg casserole or non-noodle, veg-heavy stir fry. I do think that for me, regular and constant exercise is going to be more important than diet to resolving this sugar problem for the long term once I finish with this. I'm still drinking 3liters of water a day, but am finding that my hands are much colder than normal. 

Today everythings calming down a bit with work, so will train when I get home (eventually, thanks tube!), and report on the blood levels.

Pre lunch today sugars were at 8.2 mmol, and now 2 hours post, they're at 10.3mmol.

Have looked at the following really great, in-depth article from NCL, on the science behind the study:

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/36/4/1047.long


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## WebMan

Almost case in point - this morning, I made a point of measuring my fasting BG the moment I woke up; 9.4mmol/l.

On my way into work today I had a shake and 2 hours later, my sugar had shot up to 15.6mmol/l.

That's atrocious, and I wonder if these shakes are causing more harm than good? Wouldn't a healthier, more fibrous diet with a similar nutritional and caloric intake (200cals), not be more beneficial to my BG readings, and still allow me to lose weight, or rather more specifically, fat?

I'm going to measure my sugar after a sachet shake at lunch and see how this compares. If it remains high I might stop these shakes and try and find alternate 200 cal real food meals in their place.

Looking at the ingredients - 28g of carbs, of which 26g are sugars - comprising 32% of my daily RDA - this seems counter intuitive to the cause..? Essentially a diabetic living off sugar, in order to reduce sugar/prompt insulin response..?

I'm going to be entirely honest and say last night I 'gave in' in a major way; I went to the pub and measured my BG before having anything (as a test you see!  ), and it was 6.8mmol/l at about 7pm. I then had 2 double gin and slim line tonics, and a serving of chicken tikka, cooked in a tandoor, with a side salad - again measured my BG at 9pm and it was only 8.1mmol. Much more sensible right?

The reason I  say 'gave in' in inverted commas is because based on these results, I'm not so sure I did give in - in fact part of me feels this was far more beneficial to my BG than these shakes! Not to mention more satiating and tasty to boot!

Any thoughts on this anyone?

EDIT: On further research, could it be that I simply have a high carbohydrate sensitivity? According to the internet, some people simply can't process carbs, and it is entirely possible to live off non carb based foods...


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## WebMan

Ok even more confused now;

Checked my sugar at 1:15pm this afternoon - 7.9mmol/l
Made a fruity raspberry ultra slim shake and retested 1 hour 30 mins later - so should be between the peak, and the return to normal - 9.3mmol/l...

So from that I conclude that I will continue to use the shakes for another day or 2 at least, but will test preshake, and at 30 min intervals post shake to see what it is doing exactly.


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## Carmina

WebMan said:


> I wonder if these shakes are causing more harm than good? Wouldn't a healthier, more fibrous diet with a similar nutritional and caloric intake (200cals), not be more beneficial to my BG readings, and still allow me to lose weight, or rather more specifically, fat?
> 
> Essentially a diabetic living off sugar, in order to reduce sugar/prompt insulin response..?
> 
> EDIT: On further research, could it be that I simply have a high carbohydrate sensitivity? According to the internet, some people simply can't process carbs, and it is entirely possible to live off non carb based foods...



This is what's been worrying me - the vast amount of sugar I'd be taking in and how my body would cope. I've been on a low-carb moderate fat diet for about 10 weeks now and seem to take in about 900-1100 calories a day. I've lost a lot of weight (45 lbs) and still have a long way to go to reach not-fat-any-more! I keep thinking that the Newcastle diet would give my loss an extra kick but having spent a bit of time last night reading a document I printed out from the Newcastle Uni website, I'm rethinking the whole idea. (Dr Taylor's response to FAQ - I've tried to find a link to post but can't find it now) It give practical advice on how to use his findings and advises that a slower loss may be more sustainable. It has to be sustainable to be effective. 

As I've already lost so much and reduced my FBG from the 20s in September to the 5s since mid-October by keeping my carb intake down, I'm very nervous of taking in that amount of sugar, even for a limited period. 

Maybe the way to go is to reduce my calories to a similar level for a few weeks to see what happens. My last hbA1c, cholesterol and kidney functions were a vast improvement in around 10 weeks from diagnosis. Although I'd love to get rid of the Metformin (which my GP is talking about doing at my next review, due in May) perhaps I should try sticking with foods I know I can tolerate. I've proved I can live without carbs for a few months so I'm not sure I want to upset my current progress just because I'm impatient. 

There's also a niggling worry that using the drinks will kick-start my sugar cravings again. I don't miss sugary stuff at present and would hate to wake up the cake cravings.


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## smithgareth

Hi Kev, I have to be honest, having read the scientific paper, been through the diet myself and watched the results of others, there is no doubt that if you can stick to it (and really stick to it!!) then you can get good results, but if it's not working for you, then perhaps you'd be best looking at a low carb diet and seeing how it goes. Look for low GI carbs when you do need them and keep quantities down. You should do some more digging around on the net, but I would also talk to your practice GP nurse and see whether you can get any useful diet adice from them, Might also give you a chance to talk about medication to keep your Glucose in check. Anyway good luck and keep us informed.


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## WebMan

Hi Gareth, many thanks for the reply.

I've not abandoned the diet as of yet, but I will be looking really closely at creating a morning, afternoon, and evening 15/30 min response curve to these shakes to see exactly what is happening...

So of the people you've seen go through this, have any of them achieved non diabetic glucose levels, on a normal balanced diet? or have they had to continue their medication?

I was shocked to say the least that I was getting better BG responses to a normal meal, compared to these shakes, which caused a massive spike...

I'll continue to experiment. I've had one night off, with no adverse effects, so even if I've ruined this attempt, I'm happy to start again from the beginning. These 3 weeks have flown by.


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## Carmina

http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/documents/Diabetes-Reversaloftype2study.pdf

The document I originally downloaded has been updated (Oct 2013) - link above.

The recommendations on page 2 and the top of page 3 are what have convinced me I don't really need to follow the research diet. Prof Taylor recommends losing weight by a more conventional reduction in calories, which is what I'm already doing. He does say that the research diet may be useful for people who can't lose weight in a more gradual way and that it's the amount of weight lost and sustaining the loss that make the difference. 

It's the loss of fat that can 'reverse' Type2, not the method of losing it. I've overhauled my life since diagnosis day and made a lot of changes for the better and my D is well controlled a present. I'm not risking upsetting that by adding so much sugar, even on a short-term basis. 

Good luck with trying it though - you should lose weight faster than I'm doing but my way is fitting well with my lifestyle and time commitments. Perhaps if my weight loss grinds to a halt or I reach a normal BMI with no further improvement in BG control ...


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## smithgareth

Hi Folks,

Of the original particpants on the original diet I believe 9 were left in a pre-diabetic state. Aldo was drug free as have others on the web. I had my own story, ccomplicated by a job loss, a young child, cigarettes and every excuse I could think of to ram my face with food and drink red wine. I'm now stable at 13 stone, waking glucose 6.0-7.0 and taking 4 metformin a day. The diet continues to gather supporters and doubters along the way and I understand a 5 year study will shortly be under way. As was said early in the post, Prof Taylor is positive about the diet one minute and negative the next. The truth is no-one knows, the only thing so far established is that losing liver and pancreatic fat helps improve the situation and there can be no argument that for many type 2 diabetics losing weight in ANY way will improve glucose control and help people live longer and better lives.
I am very pro this diet, I believe that rapid weight loss can seriously help so long as it kick starts a change in lifestyle and for many of us that is the most difficult thing in the world...


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## HOBIE

28 g of carbs is quite high.  If you where going to run for 3mile fine.


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## Carmina

smithgareth said:


> I believe that rapid weight loss can seriously help so long as it kick starts a change in lifestyle and for many of us that is the most difficult thing in the world...



I think that's the key to the whole debate. If it helps people who otherwise can't make the changes to start out on a changed life-style, that's brilliant. I managed to make the change without it, but I 'm frankly stunned that I did because I was a cake-addicted couch potato before diagnosis. 

So yes, I'm an advocate of the diet, it's just that from reading the Prof's update and looking at my own situation as it is now, I don't think I need it at present.


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## WebMan

Hi all,

So I spent the last 3 days doing a bit of an experiment, and making note of my readings across 3 different mornings, with 3 different breakfasts.

Before I carry on, I will say that I absolutely, 100%, agree with this diet, and I myself have seen good results thus far.

Over the 3 days I didn't exercise, or change my routine, so my fasting BG came out quite consistent over the 3 days.

The purpose of this is to look at whether having these shakes, as meal replacement, caused more, or less of a spike than comparative, 200 calorie alternatives.

On day 1, I had an Ultraslim vanilla shake from a powdered sachet, mixed into milk (as per instructions), and measured my BG every 15 minutes up to 1 hour, then every half hour (simply for conserving some of my strips - this was still enough to show the pattern) - in some instances I've done more than 1 reading every 30 mins, so it's not strictly every 30 mins, but it is a minimum of 1 reading every 30mins after 1 hour.

On day 2, I had an egg omelette, which consisted of 1 whole egg (incl yolk), and 2 egg whites (separated). I added into the omelette to bulk it out; 2 diced mushrooms, 1 diced tomato, 1 chopped red onion, 2 chopped spring onions, 12 chopped pimento green olives, a sprinkle of salt & pepper, and 4 large iceberg lettuce leaves chopped and served on the side. See below image for what it looked like:







From my calculations, using weighted measurements of each of the ingredients in the omelette, and referenced against online calorie/nutritional database (I've got the exact breakdown of how I calculated it at home and will supplement with that later), of approximately 180 cals for the full meal, including a smattering of oil I cooked it with (poured it onto the frying pan, and then tissue dabbed excess away. Protein in this was about 27g, and carbohydrates worked out at about 9g I'll cross reference this against my calculations later, and if any details are incorrect I'll update this.

On day 3, I had a whey protein shake for breakfast, which was made using measured 40g of impact whey from myprotein, which has a nutritional level of (from the website)

Per 25g:
Energy: 98.3Kcal 
Energy: 414.0kJ 
Protein (dry basis): 20.5g 
Protein (as-is): 19.6g 
Fat: 1.7g 
Carbohydrates: 1.5g 
Calcium: 125.0mg 
Cholesterol: 0.5mg

So I calculated my shakes total as being: 

Cals: 170~ incl the milk, of which carbs was 2.4g, and 31g of protein. This was yesterday morning, when I was at work, so I could only take roughly half hourly readings, but theres enough there to give the trend. I'll do this again with whey on this weekend and update if it's significantly different from that shown here.

So when compared with Ultraslim, which has 202 cals, of which 28g of carbs, of which 27g of sugar, the results below as shown by the graph seem quite predictable. I've marked hours 1, and 2 on the graph with the upward lines.






Obviously, this is based on me, and everyone elses response will be different. For me, I conclude from this that to follow the diet, as a diabetic, I myself, can no longer justify using the shakes due to my bodies response to the level of carbs/sugar.

I think it also shows, that by using 200~ calorie equivalent meals, made using real & fresh produce (veg etc), it is possible to stick to the diet.

All I'm trying to show here is that maybe the shakes aren't the be all and end all? For me, they were useful in prompting the change, and that's great, but I think for me, if you can put in the extra planning and effort to calculate and weight your food then it is possible to stick to this diet, without forgoing flavour, feeling full, and generally enjoying the diet too... At the end of the day, this feels much more sustainable for me.

Last night, I made a low carb noodle recipe, with stir fried chicken, and this was spicy, flavoursome, and caused an equivalent spike in my BG compared to the omelette breakfast. 

The whey has served to replace the grab-and-go pre-made ultraslim shakes, and it causes a significantly lower spike in my BG, not to mention allowing my levels to return to normal quicker.

I appreciate that I should repeat these to get a more scientific version of this, and I will, but I feel confident enough in my results to say I believe this will be replicated when I try again this weekend (with a different 200 cal breakfast dish). Hopefully by then my fasting levels will also be lower.

Apologies for the length, but I hope this is useful to someone.


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## WebMan

Bit of an update; have cut out carbs as much as possible over the last week or so, and today had fasting BG of 8.1. Breakfast had a whey shake made with water, and 2 hours post it was down to 7.2. Having up and down days, where sometimes fasting is 6.5ish, like the other day, and sometimes 7-8mmol.

Before lunch at 12:30, BG was 5.9. Had a salad made of mixed leaves, 5 slices of really good quality ham, chopped up, about a handful of roast chicken (precooked, tesco), a mini babybel, and 1 hour post was 7.7, and 2 hours post was  7.1. Was quite a substantial meal, and I don't feel hungry at all. 

I'm training twice a week, to 3 times a week at the moment, combination of running and weights. Still drinking 3 ltrs minimum water a day, sometimes more.

Still holding fat around the middle, but have definitely noticed I'm leaner; as has everyone else!

Whilst I'm not sticking to the shakes, I'm still hitting 600 calories a day.


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## Northerner

Sounding really good, and steady levels like you are getting are thought by some to be kinder to your body than ones that might show lower levels, but fluctuate more. Well done on sticking with things, and thanks for the update


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## smithgareth

Keep going, glad to see you're getting good results!!


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## Northerner

*MSP Colin Beattie launches radical bid to cure his diabetes*

Thought you guys might be interested to read this:

http://www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2014/...ie-launches-radical-bid-to-cure-his-diabetes/

I do wish they wouldn't use the word 'cure' though. There is no evidence that this works long term to keep people free of medication, especially if they lapse into their old ways. What I really don't like about it being called a 'cure' is that, just as with the 'lifestyle disease' insinuation (ignoring genetic or other factors and assuming you get Type 2 from eating too many pies, so it's your own fault), it insinuates that anyone could cure themselves if only they spent a couple of difficult months. It completely undermines the public's perception of how serious diabetes is


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## smithgareth

Gotta agree, all so far have gone to pre-diabetes, so still having some blood sugar control issues


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## WebMan

So it's been a number of months since I was last on the board, thought I'd post an update.
I've stuck to the low carb diet (less than 20g of carbs a day, but plenty of fibrous veg - broccolli, cauliflower, spinach, mushrooms etc, and meat/eggs/whey/casiein protein), with no drugs.

I am still on course, but I have had some weeks/weekends where I've lapsed; in total probably about 3-4 weekends of not being so bothered about my diet, and a number of times when I've not exercised. This is over the course of the last 5 months of so.


I have noticed that having the odd weekend without abandon has allowed me to get back on my regime easier and with renewed optimism when I realise that the weekend off really wasn't worth it!

2 years ago I had a blood test done, my fasting BG was 15.1 and my long term BG reading was 17.6.

This morning I got the results and my liver and kidney function test are perfectly fine. My cholesterol was a little bit high at 5.3, with apparently recommended levels at less than 5. Two years ago this was 5.7, so at least an improvement. Triglycerides were also just over at 1.9, recommended at 1.8 or less.

My fasting BG on the morning of the test was 7.7, and my long term was 8.2, which is significantly better, but still on the high side.

I currently weigh in at just under 78kg, and bounce between 77.4 and 78.4kg, still got at least another 10ish to go I think.

Bar that, pleased that things are improving, but disappointed that I can not be prescribed testing strips because I'm not on insulin/metformin - seems me saving the NHS money on not going down the drugs route doesn't allow me to at least monitor myself. Oh well will have to go back to purchasing online from people who blatently rip the NHS off for testing strips and pocket the cash.


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## Northerner

Thanks for the update Webman  Some great results, and glad to hear you have been able to stick with things. I know what you mean about the weekends off not being worth it - happens to me when I have a drink! 

I'm sure you will attain your goals, you have changed your lifestyle and diet to the point where you are now set on course. It's a big shame about the test strips, they clearly don't understand their usefulness - testing is not just in case you are going low  Money and short-termist policies.

Keep in touch, and best wishes for your future success!


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## HOBIE

Well done "Webman".  Keep at it cos sounds good to me


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## HOBIE

How are things Webman ?


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## smithgareth

*This morning*

Hi Folks,

Just thought I'd update on my latest, this mornings fasting glucose was 5.6 and I weighed in at 12 stone 9 pounds, 
Any update from you Webman, or from Aldo who we haven't heard from for a long time?

Gareth


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## Northerner

smithgareth said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> Just thought I'd update on my latest, this mornings fasting glucose was 5.6 and I weighed in at 12 stone 9 pounds,
> Any update from you Webman, or from Aldo who we haven't heard from for a long time?
> 
> Gareth



Good to hear from you Gareth, glad to hear that things are going well still  Hope the others give us an update!


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## HOBIE

Good to hear Gareth !  Keep at it & keep us informed how its going pls


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## smithgareth

Well 3 and a half years after doing the diet first time around and after 6 months of really good diet control I woke up to a 5.6 blood sugar on Saturday, the lowest non diet morning read I think I've ever had! I had toast (wholemeal) for breakfast at 8 and at 11 didn't feel well, my blood was down to 3.6! Over the past few days I've actually struggled to get my blood sugar above 8, it's generally bobbing around in the low 4's and yesterday I had another 3.6, after a quick e-mail to my diabetic nurse I've been told to drop to 2 metformin 500mg a day and test regularly!


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## Northerner

smithgareth said:


> Well 3 and a half years after doing the diet first time around and after 6 months of really good diet control I woke up to a 5.6 blood sugar on Saturday, the lowest non diet morning read I think I've ever had! I had toast (wholemeal) for breakfast at 8 and at 11 didn't feel well, my blood was down to 3.6! Over the past few days I've actually struggled to get my blood sugar above 8, it's generally bobbing around in the low 4's and yesterday I had another 3.6, after a quick e-mail to my diabetic nurse I've been told to drop to 2 metformin 500mg a day and test regularly!



Great news Gareth  Don't be too alarmed by the 3.6s, they are within a normal range for non-diabetics (range 3.3-6 mmol/l is 'normal'). Looking really promising for getting off the medication altogether!


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## HOBIE

Good to hear Smithgareth. I have been getting low Bg because of the weather being hot. So don't blame yourself blame the weather ! ( & love the summer) Keep at it !


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## HOBIE

If you have a look on the Events section Dr Shaw is giving a talk at the Wellness day at Hartlepool


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## CharlyCroker

*Just completing the 8 week Newcastle Diet*

Hi guys - I am new to this forum and wish I had found it 8 or 9 weeks ago.

I have been doing the Necastle Diet (stuck to it religously and lost nearly 3 stones - should be 3 stones on Sunday when I complete my 8 weeks - taking me from 16 stone 6lbs down to 13 stone 6lbs).

Whilst the 8 weeks of 800 calories has been hard (no where near as hard as I thought it would be) I am under no illusion that the hard work actually is going to start on Monday when I return to 'normal food' and have to keep the weight off and the sugars down.

Prof. Roy Taylor suggests eating a diet of approx 2/3rds of what you ate prior to starting the diet. I had already reduced my intake down to approx 2100/2200 per day prior to diet which would suggest dropping to 1400 cals/day (which feels really small for a 6"3" bloke). My intention is to reduce to approx 1600/1700 cals instead on a low GI food diet.

My initial plan had been to gradually build up from my 800 cals/day up to the 1600/1700 cals/day over a 4 week period. My theory (and I am certainly no diet  or medical expert) is that my current metabolic rate must be very low due to my 800 cals/day diet and that if I go straight on to 1600/1700 cals/day that my body will quickly gain weight due to low metabolic rate ???

However, I have just read something that says that low cal diets (eg less than 1200/day) teach the body to learn to store fat and as such you will regain all of the lost weight and quite possibly more.

Therefore I have 2 questions for those with either previous experience of completing this diet or those with a good diet/medical experience:-

1) I am be fool hardy by going to 1600/1700 cals/day as opposed to 1400/1500 ?
(I am looking at the higher figure as I have read that the Base Metabolic Rate for someone of my weight/height age etc is just over 1800 cals so I should theoretically still lose weight on 1600/1700 cals/day ? I am quite happy with the 3 stone weight loss I have already achieved as it has dropped me down to a BMI of 24 so further weight loss is not something that I am desperately chasing but wouldn't mind losing approx another 1/2 stone to give me a bit of a 'cushion' whilst I am getting used to 'normal eating' on a low GI food diet. The plan would be to gradually adjust my daily cals to a level that I find sustains my weight).

2) Should I stick to my initial plan of gradual increase over the 4 weeks or should I just start on 1600 cals/day as of Monday (assuming my stomach will allow that) ? (Eg concern is that gradual build may teach my body to store fats and give me a longer term problem ?)


Any help/advice would be VERY gratefully received guys.

Thanks in anticipation.


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## Lindarose

Hi Charlycroker Very well done on sticking to the diet and losing weight. I did the diet for 3 to 4 weeks before a holiday and lost a lot too though for me it was about trying to reverse diabetes. Is that why you did it and I'm interested in hearing what your blood glucose levels were and are now? It certainly didn't 'cure' me but low carb eating helps with control. Sorry I can't answer your questions about ongoing calorie needs.


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## CharlyCroker

Hi Lindarose,

Thanks. I also did it for reversing Diabetes Type 2. My BG levels on day 1 were 9.6 (though to be fair that is high for me, my average was normally approx high 6's to low 7's).
Iam currently getting mid/late 4's and early 5's - and the very occasional weird spike to 6 or so, which has happened about 3 or 4 times).

Just hoping that they remain that low when I come off the diet and that my when the Dr takes my bloods the HBA1C readings drop - as they were about 7 last time).

Really need to understand what I need to do next though (as in the post above) to make sure that I don't reverse the good work that I have achieved.

Congrats on your weight loss - did you sustain it and the blood levels ?


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## Lindarose

Those readings are brilliant Makes it all worthwhile and I'm sure your next gp tests will confirm things.  I have kept all the weight off by going from the newcastle diet to low carb eating. Tbh I'm weighing a bit less than I would like now probably because I eat less calories than I used to. I think if you try to gradually eat more and weigh yourself at least weekly you will see whether you are maintaining or gaining (or losing more of course). If you watch the carbs and test regularly you should be able to work out which foods your body can deal with best and so keep those levels down Good luck!


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## HOBIE

Well done Charly ! Keep us posted how you are getting on etc


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## HOBIE

Some good reading ! & excellent results


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## Northerner

If anyone who has done the Newcastle Diet is interested I have had an enquiry about a new book being written that is looking for case studies to be included in the book. It's being written by a very well-respected broadcaster so should be a good and fair assessment.

Please contact me, either by Private Message, or using the 'Contact' link on the top of the screen and I'll send you more details


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## HOBIE

Get your name in !


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## emmo26

Great thread smithgareth.....

On this now (4th week) at the halfway stage. Not on any meds...so my intention/goal on going on this is to prevent me on HAVING to go on the metformins.

One question.....the big elephant in the room.  In my case a big brown elephant .Well for me anyway  *blush*

Constipation .....I had a look at senokot, but this medicine is not advised to be taken by diabetic people.  Any ideas to avoid  or minimize this problem???

With the sugar concerns with the shakes....you could always swap the shakes for the 2 soups a day and then one shake. As the soup will always have the lower sugar level..

My concerns about webman, is that prof rod taylor advises not to do any exercises whilst on this diet plan..Exercises can raise ur BG levels in a very short time,  and taking the whey protein drinks (instead of the optislims) may contain resistant starch which may have a detrimental effect on your glucose resistance. Prof Taylor always advise that you should not take anything 'starchy'


Anyways, keep up the good work and good luck to one and all.


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## Northerner

Hi emmo26, welcome to the forum  I hope that you succeed with the diet, and it sounds like you are taking care of yourself which is often a concern when people try these things outside of the research environment and conditions that imposes.

A lot of medications have the advice 'not suitable for diabetics', pretty much as a catch all to prevent litigation, but if you aren't on any meds then I would suggest asking your pharmacist if Senokot would be OK for you, or if they could recommend an alternative. I think a lot of these products contain glycerine (or glycerol - never quite sure!), so would probably raise levels. It would be worth asking about straightforward, unadulterated senna tablets  - I got some when I had a similar problem a while back and they worked a treat! Well, it was certainly a treat at the time! 

Good luck, please keep us updated! I'm not sure of the original poster is still reading here as he was on some time ago.


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## emmo26

> I got some when I had a similar problem a while back and they worked a treat! Well




What were they called, so I can ask the pharmacist about them


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## Northerner

emmo26 said:


> What were they called, so I can ask the pharmacist about them



They're simply 'Senna 7.5mg' tablets, no brand - they were prescribed by my GP. Just ask the pharmacist for that, I can't imagine you need a prescription for them


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## emmo26

week 5 of 8

Now at 10 st 6 lb from a starting weight of 12 st...Saw Doc about the constipation...she said that I have to keep drinking 3 litres a day, something which I was not doing.  Thus causing my poop problems.  All cleared up now...


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## Northerner

emmo26 said:


> week 5 of 8
> 
> Now at 10 st 6 lb from a starting weight of 12 st...Saw Doc about the constipation...she said that I have to keep drinking 3 litres a day, something which I was not doing.  Thus causing my poop problems.  All cleared up now...



Good to hear emmo! Well done, not long to go now and a great weight loss  How do you feel?


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## HOBIE

Keep going Emmo !  Well done


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## emmo26

Now completed 6 weeks of a 8 week course...Weight is now 10 5 lbs (flickering between 4/5 pounds on the scales). Noticed weekly weight reduction is getting less and less in the latter weeks. Maybe weight is now plateau'ing

At bit more on the diet can be found here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3r5ykZ9hLY (4 mins)

with a full presentation from professor Roy Taylor

http://tinyurl.com/qf7o4c6 (1hr 15min)


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## HOBIE

Good news Emmo.   You have a right to feel good !


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## emmo26

Now rolling out the same trial to test long term sufferers of T2 at imperial college at london.

http://tinyurl.com/qfywbyb

For further information about joining this trial, contact weightloss@imperial.ac.uk


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## AndBreathe

Emmo; just to be clear; I haven't done the ND, but do appear to have reversed my T2 by breeching my personal fat threshold by losing some weight and significantly improving my insulin resistance.

I have been an avid follower of Professor Taylor and have corresponded with him, when I asked him some specific questions about my own condition.

If I could just comment:

I am always interested when I read of people commenting like the ND has a specific timeframe; almost like a course of antibiotics.  According to Professor Taylor, the 8 week timeframe was for research purposes only.  Clearly for research, there has to be a beginning, an end and certain measures along the way?

Clearly the tricky thing is knowing where each of our personal fat thresholds sit, and frankly, I have no idea where mine was, save to say I significantly trimmed back over a period of months.

I have no idea how close your 8 week target will take you to your desired weight, but, if you still have a way to go, and provided you remain healthy and feel well, there seems to be little clinical reasoning why you could not continue.  Of course, assuming you are being supported by your Doc, you might want to discuss that with him/her if you fancy carrying on a bit longer.

One thing I will say is, once you get close to your target weight, whenever that is, start to plan how you will stabilise your weightloss, because it's often not as easy as it seems, to stop the loss.  Anyone saying that to me a year or so ago, would have had me laughing in their face, but it took me some time to get the balance right, as I was almost paranoid that I didn't want to go into any form of yo-yo behaviour.  In the end, it took me a number of months to get it right and another 4kg off.  That left me a lighter than I planned, but I have remained there.  

Good luck with it all.  The potential rewards are worth the effort.


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## emmo26

on final week......... 9st 12 


did a reading this morning ..... 4.2  which is quite good considering I am on no meds and my first diagnosis reading was 9.0


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## Northerner

emmo26 said:


> on final week......... 9st 12



Good stuff  What plans do you have for next week, diet-wise?


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## emmo26

_Updated my last post._
.
.
.
------------------

As for meals, Prof Roy Taylor advises that participants should consume 2/3's of their daily meals.


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## emmo26

Finished...

Signing off weight 9st 10lbs....Fast glucose test was taken yesterday, so should get results in by next week.


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## Northerner

emmo26 said:


> Finished...
> 
> Signing off weight 9st 10lbs....Fast glucose test was taken yesterday, so should get results in by next week.



Good luck! Well done for sticking with it!


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## HOBIE

emmo26 said:


> Finished...
> 
> Signing off weight 9st 10lbs....Fast glucose test was taken yesterday, so should get results in by next week.



Good for you Emmo !  Those Docs at Ncle are very good & well done for keeping to it


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## emmo26

Results just in

Blood test type: Fasting 

Patient status: (no meds)

Plasma glucose level: 5.5 mmol/L (normal)

HbA1c levl - IFCC standardised: 36 mmol/mol (normal) 

Thank feck for that..... 

But the truth in the pudding is to see where I am with all this in 5 years time.


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## Northerner

Great results emmo! Long may the good numbers continue


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## HOBIE

Good work !


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