# NHS ID scheme could deter eligible patients, say MPs



## Northerner (Feb 1, 2017)

A pilot scheme in which patients are asked to show two forms of identification before receiving NHS treatment could compromise access to care, parliament’s spending watchdog has said.

The public accounts committee urged caution before officials extend the scheme, saying it could lead to entitled patients staying away from hospitals. The MPs have also told the Department of Health to take urgent action to renew a “chaotic” system of recovering money from so-called health tourists.

Trusts are supposed to charge visitors from outside the European Economic Area and Switzerland for non-emergency hospital treatment. For patients from the EEA and Switzerland, trusts should recoup their costs through an insurance scheme.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/feb/01/nhs-id-scheme-could-deter-eligible-patients-say-mps


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## Ljc (Feb 1, 2017)

That means I and  others like me would have a bit of a job.  I don't drive, don't have a passport and utility bills are not in my name.


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## Ljc (Feb 1, 2017)

And I think our GPs have enough to do anyway.


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## Manda1 (Feb 1, 2017)

I am the same I don't drive nor do I have a passport so what would I do ? Answers on a post card please x


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## mikeyB (Feb 1, 2017)

Not from me. No passport, no driving licence, paperless utility bills. I don't exist.


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## grovesy (Feb 1, 2017)

We had a similar discussion a few months back.


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## mikeyB (Feb 1, 2017)

Aye, but it's like watching old episodes of Morse. You can remember the programme, but not who did it.


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## trophywench (Feb 1, 2017)

LOL - yesterday they were talking about ID cards generally on our Motorhome forum.  One pathetic creature thought his idea was not only infallible, but absolutely 100% acceptable to all.  Everyone, but everyone, must use their photocard driving licence as their official ID.

I wondered whatever he expected blind people to do .... amongst millions of others who would be excluded!

What might actually be useful and acceptable to most at least, might be a card with your NHS number on it? - just like we all used to have!


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## Ralph-YK (Feb 1, 2017)

Manda1 said:


> I am the same I don't drive nor do I have a passport so what would I do ? Answers on a post card please x


Please prove what your address is please.  Yes, ID.


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## Amigo (Feb 1, 2017)

Don't people have prescription exemption cards, debit cards, library cards, NI number, travel cards, birth certificate? 


There's such a drain by 'health tourists', I can see the need.


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## Ralph-YK (Feb 1, 2017)

Amigo said:


> Don't people have prescription exemption cards, debit cards, library cards, NI number, travel cards, birth certificate?



Birth certificates are no use.  Mine (all four copies) shows someone was registered 53 years ago.  Doesn't tell you it's me.  Doesn't show that person lived a month.
Anyone can walk into local office (not even the right one) and get a copy.  I have, as I didn't have a copy (my mum had it) and had been asked for one.  Then, seveal years later needed it again.  Of course couldn't find the first one so got another. Then when mum had a clear our actually gave me here copy.

Library cards and travel cards are not accepted.  My travel card has my photo on and post code and it's not accepted.

Amazon won't accpted bank and card details as proof of ID.  I'd started sell through them.  They then wanted ID.  Passport, ID Card etc.  Even though they had my bank detials and address (they'd been sending things to me for years).


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## Amigo (Feb 1, 2017)

This is to deter 'health tourists' who are estimated to cost the NHS £2 billion a year! 

Everyone gets seen to at A&E regardless as an emergency but this is to stop people flying in to receive operations and health care that they don't qualify for. I have enough medical letters to decorate a house all with my NHS number on and when I go to hospital, I've been referred by my GP surgery. We all have NHS numbers and NI numbers.
If people are saying they have absolutely no means of proving who they are then it strengthens the case for ID cards. It's hard to believe people don't receive any letters whatsoever demonstrating they've been resident here for over 6 months even if it's a rent book, insurances or mortgage card.

We just can't afford to pay for the people who deliberately mis-use our NHS and I think we all need to play our part in eradicating it. 

When I needed treatment in Spain, they wouldn't look at me without identification.


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## trophywench (Feb 1, 2017)

Amigo said:


> When I needed treatment in Spain, they wouldn't look at me without identification.



This is what I can never get my head round, Amigo.  Nobody elsewhere in Europe (forget the EU, nob all to do with this as it's exactly the same 'thing' as applied before the E111, even and still applies) can get anything out of a doctor or a hospital without suitable ID - you HAVE to produce your passport.  I'm not saying they'd demand it if you had a cardiac arrest before they tried to revive you - but as you are sposed to carry it with you at all times - they'd certainly and legitimately, expect to see it SOON.

And eg in France, French people all carry ID cards, and they have to produce them, even when they are eg diabetic and their doctor has known all about them for decades - you still have to flash your card at the receptionist to prove that you are you before you can go in to see him for your regular monthly pre-booked visit or whatever you went for!

So I cannot for the life of me see what anyone can possibly object to in terms of carrying one in the first place.

Yeah yeah what if they are forged, what if there's someone from Zumbaslavia who's an illegal immigrant pretends they're me, what if they cunningly implant all your bank account details on it and fraudsters skim millions off my bank account blah blah blah - well surely they are much more likely to do that if I lose my own bank card or broadcast my internet banking details in another way, in what way, for what reason, would this be any more dangerous for me than it already is?


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## mikeyB (Feb 1, 2017)

I have no problem with an ID card. Everyone had one during the war, and democracy didn't collapse. I think it's almost bound to happen when we exit the EU. After all, we are already the most watched population on the planet, the most listened to by nefarious means. Objecting to ID cards is hardly a dent to our freedom.


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## Ralph-YK (Feb 1, 2017)

Amigo said:


> I have enough medical letters to decorate a house all with my NHS number on and when I go to hospital, I've been referred by my GP surgery. We all have NHS numbers and NI numbers.


I've never understood how (most letters) prove id, certainly not your id.
NI may, possibly, show officaldoms acceptance of a persons existence. How do you prove that's you though. And anyone you provided the number to would have to be able to check it.  Weeks, unless done by computer. And we all know what government projects are like. And computer systems.
As for NHS number, I didn't know they even existed till three years ago.



Amigo said:


> ... a rent book, ....


I've been renting for years and don't remember having one.



Amigo said:


> It's hard to believe people don't receive any letters whatsoever demonstrating they've been resident here for over 6 months ...


Why?  I wouldn't expect people to receive mail that shows that.  I don't. Unless you mean mail from six month ago or more that I've kept. I know people who don't keep any mail for a day.


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## Ralph-YK (Feb 2, 2017)

How do you prove what your ID is in the first place, for it to be put on an id card? What happens when officialdom gets it wrong?
And what actually is an ID anyway? Seriously! Is any of you able (and willing) to say?  Never had anyone try to tell us that.


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## mikeyB (Feb 2, 2017)

Well, there's many a doctor and surgeon who has treated me, prodded me, scoped me who know exactly who I am.

Oh, that's where we started....


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## Northerner (Feb 2, 2017)

I've heard some very conflicting evidence about the impact of 'health tourism' and have to wonder whether it's simply being used as a distraction from the much greater problems experienced by the NHS, in the same way that benefit fraud has been used to vilify all benefit claimants  I'm sure it's an actual problem, but doubt that adding more bureaucracy will solve it or save the NHS 

I remember when I worked for Saga their insurance department had a problem with Brits taking their holidays and insurance to go to the US because they would get certain treatments, or faster, over there and then claim, so some premiums were astronomical - didn't dissuade everyone though!


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## Ditto (Feb 2, 2017)

I always thought ID cards were an excellent idea. It would end a lot of fraud surely? Don't know how we'd prove who we were initially though.


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## Ljc (Feb 2, 2017)

I personally wouldn't mind having an ID card. I think identity fraud would go up though.


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## MikeTurin (Feb 2, 2017)

trophywench said:


> And eg in France, French people all carry ID cards, and they have to produce them, even when they are eg diabetic and their doctor has known all about them for decades - you still have to flash your card at the receptionist to prove that you are you before you can go in to see him for your regular monthly pre-booked visit or whatever you went for!


The European Health Insurance Card is used a lot here because the barcode is used to cross check that the receptionist is not mixing up the exam procedure that one has to undergo or get the wrong exam. Son passing the card on the reader will warn if one has got the wrong records for a patient.


> Yeah yeah what if they are forged, what if there's someone from Zumbaslavia who's an illegal immigrant pretends they're me, what if they cunningly implant all your bank account details on it and fraudsters skim millions off my bank account blah blah blah - well surely they are much more likely to do that if I lose my own bank card or broadcast my internet banking details in another way, in what way, for what reason, would this be any more dangerous for me than it already is?


The biggest problem with id card is that here for some law are photocopied a lot so for a clerk that likes to con someone it's really easy to photocopy your card or photoshop is and give a copy...
I had also a red card with my name on it that states that I am diabetic, and I have absolutely no problem to carry in in my wallet: I in the case i have to go in A&E while unconscious I hope the nurses are looking in the wallet...


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## trophywench (Feb 2, 2017)

When I was pre-school age (ie pre 1955) me and my sis were encouraged to drink 'Welfare Orange' several times a week.  Not sure if one had to pay for it, but it was provided by the Gov for young children due to the lack of fruit available generally and especially in Winter due to the war, to prevent us all getting rickets through lack of Vit C.  I used to accompany mom to collect it when we needed a new bottle - always on a Tuesday since 'the Welfare' office was more or less opposite the fishmongers, and Tuesday was fish day at our house !

She always had to take both our NHS cards with her, to prove entitlement.  These were all kept in a certain place in one of the cupboards in our living room, so were a familiar sight.  Buff single fold cards, with everything handwritten in copperplate in blue/black ink.  Don't recall what was printed on the inside or back other than the obvious headings for name, number etc.  Our cards were handed over to us when we each got married, as you needed your NHS number to register with your new doctor, or at least, it made it easier for them.  I know my old number was 'MOSK' and some numbers - I've always been able to remember the first bit, as you can say it !  LOL

It never appeared on any NHS correspondence until comparatively recently, but now it's on virtually every letter one receives from either hospitals or the doctor's surgery.  But - I haven't the slightest idea what mine is and would have to grab a hospital appointment letter (which, just like my ma, are all kept in a certain place in my living room!) if I needed it!


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## grovesy (Feb 2, 2017)

I used to like the Welfare Orange Juice and cod liver oil capsules but I used to chew the capsules.


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## Ralph-YK (Feb 2, 2017)

Ditto said:


> I always thought ID cards were an excellent idea. It would end a lot of fraud surely? Don't know how we'd prove who we were initially though.


On TV a bit ago someone said most fraud doesn't rely on what you're identity is.


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## Amigo (Feb 2, 2017)

Interesting that we are discussing this because my OH has a hospital appointment tomorrow and there's a letter contained in the information about demonstrating 'right of residence'. They are simply asking for some proof to demonstrate the patient lives in the U.K. and has done for 6 months. They've asked for a utility bill, housing contract (people should have them by law), a bank statement or any other letter showing residence at a U.K. address for the required time. Even a prescription renewal from the doctor demonstrates longevity in the U.K. They will also accept a birth certificate which matches a letter. 
We also conduct most of our financial affairs by computer but I can absolutely guarantee that should the Police knock at anyone's door tonight and want to take you in for a mistaken identity, everybody would very swiftly be able to find some way of demonstrating their identity with some accompanying history of residence!

Anyone who says they have no means of identity whatsoever is in trouble!


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## Northerner (Feb 2, 2017)

grovesy said:


> I used to like the Welfare Orange Juice and cod liver oil capsules but I used to chew the capsules.


My Mum used to hide the cod liver oil capsules in my mashed potatoes!   Eew! How could you chew them?


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## grovesy (Feb 2, 2017)

Northerner said:


> My Mum used to hide the cod liver oil capsules in my mashed potatoes!   Eew! How could you chew them?


I don't know i did not mind the taste my Mum used to say I might aswell have the straight oil


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## Ditto (Feb 2, 2017)

We used to get National Dried for the baby from the Clinic and the orange juice and cod liver oil. We also had malt which we loved and used to sneak into the pantry to dip into the jar. Tried it when I was grown up and yeuck! Horrible. 

I've got all our NHS buff cards, but never had to use them.


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## Austin Mini (Feb 2, 2017)

In Peterborough we have had to produce two forms of i.d. for over four years when attending the hospital. You telling me you all havnt had to produce i.d. when attending hospital?


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## Amigo (Feb 2, 2017)

Austin Mini said:


> In Peterborough we have had to produce two forms of i.d. for over four years. You telling me you lot havnt?



I did read that they'd done an initial pilot in Peterborough Austin...it's obviously a cutting edge place!


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## Dave W (Feb 2, 2017)

trophywench said:


> When I was pre-school age (ie pre 1955) me and my sis were encouraged to drink 'Welfare Orange' several times a week.  Not sure if one had to pay for it, but it was provided by the Gov for young children due to the lack of fruit available generally and especially in Winter due to the war, to prevent us all getting rickets through lack of Vit C.  I used to accompany mom to collect it when we needed a new bottle - always on a Tuesday since 'the Welfare' office was more or less opposite the fishmongers, and Tuesday was fish day at our house !
> !


Been there got the T-shirt. Still remember ration cards.


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## trophywench (Feb 2, 2017)

Neither of us has been asked for ID at either of the hospitals we attend, but there again most of who we go to see have known us a few years and quite a number greet either or both of us by Christian name.  It's a laugh really at the hospital diabetes clinic - as I walk through the door - me and the receptionist both chorus Hi, Jenny! to each other!  It would be bats if I had to prove who I was to her, and mega silly when they downloaded my pump, which they supplied me with, is registered to me by Roche and they are sending their bills to my CCG in my name, because the thing wouldn't therefore download onto my section of the computer program, if all the pump details didn't agree with what's already in there which was loaded by them before I got my first one and was updated by them for the replacement one.

Admittedly at the two main hospitals the clinic receptionists don't know who you are necessarily since they are different ones nearly every time you go - and if it's for something new where they haven't seen you before, fair enough anyway.

I'll make sure I check any new appointment letters either of us get to see if anything's been added, but I've not heard anything about it yet!


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## Ralph-YK (Feb 3, 2017)

Austin Mini said:


> In Peterborough we have had to produce two forms of i.d. for over four years when attending the hospital. You telling me you all havnt had to produce i.d. when attending hospital?


I've never had to produce anything, at any of 3 hospitals. Should I count the fourth, where I've only been once, as an inpatient and was taken by ambulance from one of the others.  The whole time I was there they kept coming round asking my name. They'd then write it down wrong every single time, (even though I spelled it out for them) making it A Different Name. They'd then give me some tablets or take some blood.


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## Ljc (Feb 3, 2017)

Ralph-YK said:


> I've never had to produce anything.


Me neither, but the two times I had appointments at Urology outpatients, I was shown a list and asked if any applied . I've been to other outpatients clinics at the same hospital  and wasn't asked, perhaps  my SE London accent was enough proof f lol.


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## mikeyB (Feb 3, 2017)

They never asked me to provide proof of identity at my recent colonoscopy and the gastroscopy. I guess they don't think anybody would want a fraudulent colonoscopy. Actually, enough proof is given when I pronounce the name of our house correctly (it's in Gaelic), first word Taigh, of course.


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## Northerner (Feb 3, 2017)

Never been asked for any proof, although yesterday at the Eye Hospital I handed them my letter and then had to answer some basic questions (address, DOB, doctor's surgery attended).


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## Andy HB (Feb 3, 2017)

I don't drive but I do have a provisional driving licence.  I use it frequently to prove my ID. I also have a passport, so that's two forms of ID and one has my address on it.

I don't see why most people can't do that too. Yes, there is the cost, but over the lifetime of those things, it really isn't much.

Andy


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## grovesy (Feb 3, 2017)

Not everyone has passport, or driving licence, and passports aren't exactly cheap.


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