# Sugar, carbs & all the rest



## Mee Crow Wah Vey (Apr 6, 2021)

After being shouted at for suggesting a person new to T2 diabetes should take into account the traffic light system as a guide, I feel the only thing I can eat is _humble pie. _

I've been diabetic for 18 years and I was involved with Diabetes UK volunteering and that was how I learnt about sugar and diet. I have never been sent on a DAFNE etc...  
I left because I became very disillusioned with D UK and how much money they wasted and how little help they gave volunteers and local groups.

I don't know where to go from here.  I've looked around websites and forums,  but I need a basic beginner's guide.

I guess what I am saying is I need to start again, look at it with new eyes. What would you suggest I do?  It has been in my thoughts all day.


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## Leadinglights (Apr 6, 2021)

I don't think anybody mean to make you feel bad about what you said, obviously you have a good deal of experience if managing your diabetes. For somebody new with little help from their GP practice it could be misleading if they are relying on the 'sugars' labelling especially if they are not testing their levels. People are often not told that it is all carbohydrates they need to be aware of.
Sometimes revisiting what you are doing and going back to basics will have a positive outcome. Every day is a school day with diabetes.


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## Drummer (Apr 6, 2021)

You are certainly not alone in having no help understanding the problem of carbohydrates.
I had decades of being told how healthy carbs were, that I ought to be eating them - even in the face of the information that eating carbs made me feel unwell, and that I put on weight on their high carb diets - that was because I was doing it wrong - I was also called a liar, delusional, and other negative descriptions for questioning their wisdom. When pregnant I was even threatened with being taken into hospital and fed properly when I pointed out that I was becoming very unwell after being screamed at and made to promise to eat carbs.
I eat meat, seafood, eggs and cheese, I have cream in my coffee, yoghurt - plain full fat, and I eat stirfries and salads - oh, and stews, made with low carb veges. I do have berries from time to time, but I find that just two meals a day is enough for me these days.


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## rebrascora (Apr 6, 2021)

Really sad to hear that our comments on the other post have affected you so strongly. Please don't take it personally. It is understandably a problem for people who got their knowledge a while ago and what you learn in the beginning sticks with you to the point that sometimes you don't realise that things move on. In fact, the NHS (and Diabetes UK) is still stuck with that old theory.... ie Fat is bad and carbs should be eaten at every meal but watch out for sugar and yet eat more fruit. It is all too contradictory when Diabetes is the body's inability to metabolize glucose in the blood stream which comes from all the carbs we eat and in the absence of carbs, the body will also break down 40% of protein and 10% of fat to produce glucose. Which is why of the 3 food groups fat is the least problematic for diabetics wishing to control it through diet and another reason why the traffic light system is unhelpful for diabetics in that high fat foods get a red traffic light.

The information is actually mostly all here on the forum which is where I got my knowledge from but not the main Diabetes UK website but the posts of members of the forum. 
A You Tube video which I recently found of a TED talk presentation by Dr Sarah Fellberg might be helpful to you in understanding some of the new thinking...




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						Dr Sarah Fellberg TED talk - Bing video
					






					www.bing.com


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## rebrascora (Apr 6, 2021)

The Boka bars you bought were not necessarily a bad choice but there are better. Nature Valley Protein bars come in at just under 10g carbs per bar and are very satisfying and Aldi Gluten Free Nut Bars, which are half dark chocolate coated are just 5.9g carbs per bar and whilst smaller, are very tasty and filling . Brazil nuts are one of the lowest carb nuts and one of my favourites and walnuts. Not really looked at the carb content of Macadamia nuts, so can't comment on that but you will get used to looking at the total carbohydrates on foods or looking values up online.


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## Kaylz (Apr 6, 2021)

If it makes any difference, I as a Type 1 have never been on a carb counting course, I'm self taught and did so less than a month into my diagnosis xx


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## Inka (Apr 6, 2021)

I haven’t been on a carb counting course either. I just got the basic leaflet at diagnosis many years ago.

I also think we’re sometimes inaccurate with our language. Carb counting, counting carbs - sometimes they’re not referring to the same thing eg Type 1s and those on insulin might use the terms to mean counting carbs in order to use their insulin to carb ratio, but others might say ‘counting carbs’ to mean watching the total carbs. So that’s another thing to keep in mind.

Ask whatever you want. Nobody knows everything and no question is silly.


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## Kaylz (Apr 6, 2021)

Diabetic Frog said:


> I think I got left behind for some reason.  I've never been to the hospital for an 'MOT' or education. Like you I've been doing it myself but with a yearly check at the doctors.
> It's like being in a box with the lid closed and I can't get out.


I don't mind about myself, I've managed fine so it doesn't really bother me, I was regularly seen when newly diagnosed as my hba1c became pretty low so they kept checking that but I haven't had much to do with them since 2017, I can call if I feel the need but the only contact I've had since January 2020 was enquiring about changes to my prescriptions etc xx


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## rebrascora (Apr 6, 2021)

Diabetic Frog said:


> I don't usually eat that kind of thing but I guess I got sucked in by low sugar and low price!
> I feel a bit pressured to get it right.


That is the problem with the low sugar message that the Government and NHS and Diabetes UK put out which perpetuates the myth that diabetes is all about sugar. It is one of the reasons I object to the use of the term Blood Sugar rather than Blood Glucose. People see the words Blood Sugar and directly associate it with the sugar in our diet when all carbs are broken down into glucose which enters our blood stream. Yes glucose is sugar but it is also the most basic building block of carbohydrates and of course sugar in all its forms either fructose from fruit or lactose from milk or sucrose manufactured from sugar cane or beet or maple syrup or honey which contain mixtures of different sugars..... (edited to add) is just a simple carbohydrate.

It might interest you to know that there is pretty much the equivalent of 3 teaspoons of granulated sugar in one slice of medium wholemeal bread (15g carbs) as far as your digestive system is concerned. It may release it's glucose slightly slower than the sugar but there isn't much difference. So your average sandwich with 2 slices of bread has the equivalent of 6 teaspoons of sugar (30g carbs) in it without looking at the filling, although a ham salad will only add 1 or 2g extra carbs. This is why looking at the total carbs is important. This glucose all ends up in your blood stream which is why many of us cut right back on bread and pasta and rice and couscous and breakfast cereal and pastry as well as cakes and biscuits and we eat more fat or at the very least avoid low fat products which are almost always higher in carbs.


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## Bloden (Apr 6, 2021)

Kaylz said:


> If it makes any difference, I as a Type 1 have never been on a carb counting course, I'm self taught and did so less than a month into my diagnosis xx


Snap!


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## Leadinglights (Apr 6, 2021)

I think it can be quite confusing as there seems to be a mixture of people who are Type 1 using insulin  go with a low carb regime and those who eat a normal amount of carbs but count the carbs to work out their insulin. But for Type 2 control of carbs seems key, I'm not sure what people who are Type 2 but take insulin do. I suppose whatever you do testing is crucial to good management of the condition.


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## rebrascora (Apr 6, 2021)

The courses available to Type 2s are very much based on the NHS dietary advice, so you might still be advised to follow the traffic light system of labelling and eat "healthy" wholegrains and brown rice and porridge. 

The best advice we give people is to get a BG meter and test your BG before and 2 hours after eating a meal and the difference between the readings will tell you if your body coped with the carbs in that meal. Knowing how many carbs you have eaten is useful so that you can keep a diary and reduce the portion size if your BG level spiked too high from it next time you have that same meal, until you find which foods and what portion size you personally can cope with.


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## Drummer (Apr 7, 2021)

Diabetic Frog said:


> @Drummer I feel for you, I really do! Veggies, meat etc... are fine but it's the shop bought, processed, cereals, anything pre-made that is bothering me.  I'm feeling very anti food at the moment.


I just don't eat anything much that comes in a box - I am happiest with very old fashioned cooking, true to my Viking heritage I suppose.
I really am perfectly content to eat low carb for the rest of my life - just to show the difference a proper diet can make.


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## Inka (Apr 7, 2021)

@Diabetic Frog If you’re on insulin, you need to be very careful about reducing your carbs.

Don’t worry about what others eat - eat what’s right for you. That is, consider your HbA1C, your weight, other health conditions.


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## rebrascora (Apr 7, 2021)

Inka said:


> @Diabetic Frog If you’re on insulin, you need to be very careful about reducing your carbs.
> 
> Don’t worry about what others eat - eat what’s right for you. That is, consider your HbA1C, your weight, other health conditions.



@Diabetic Frog I think many of us have been assuming you are not on insulin but being quite a long term Type 2 diabetic I wonder if we misunderstood your situation especially as you mention carrying jelly babies and your test kit. If you are on insulin then you should be aware of carbs and cautious of lowering them, especially if you are on fixed doses of insulin and clearly from the messages on this post you are not carb counting, so the best advice as always is to be guided by your meter.

I would also wonder if ....

a) You are really Type 2, then with a low carb rather than just low sugar diet, you might be able to push your diabetes into remission and possibly come off whatever medication you are taking

OR

b) You might be a misdiagnosed slow onset Type 1 (LADA) if you are on insulin.

I am sure many more people must have been misdiagnosed 18 yrs ago than are now, purely based on their age, since most doctors believe Type 1 is a childhood condition and more so back then. When people say a parent is/was Type 2 on insulin so they were doomed to get it anyway, I wonder how many of those parents may have been misdiagnosed Type 1s and how many are actually Type 2 but with the right dietary/lifestyle advice could have been prevented from needing insulin. 

@Diabetic Frog
Would you like to tell us the story of how you came to be diagnosed and what medication you are actually on for it, so that we can understand your situation better?


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## Drummer (Apr 7, 2021)

Diabetic Frog said:


> My Daughter is at Uni in York, so we have seen quite a lot of Viking stuff!


My daughter went to York Uni - I still have family in the area - I was born just by the minster, in the old part of the Prury Cust hospital, or nursing home, as it was then - 70 years ago next Tuesday - and lived on Main Street, Fulford.


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## adrian1der (Apr 7, 2021)

I was at the University from 1983-1986


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## adrian1der (Apr 7, 2021)

Diabetic Frog said:


> What did you study?


Theoretical physics


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## Deleted member 25429 (Apr 7, 2021)

Kaylz said:


> If it makes any difference, I as a Type 1 have never been on a carb counting course, I'm self taught and did so less than a month into my diagnosis xx


Me too I read and read as my surgery are not very helpful. I keep to a low carb mainly plant based diet , peppers and onions give me the sweetness. We don’t buy any pre made food cook everything from scratch because we both enjoy cooking


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## Kaylz (Apr 7, 2021)

Freddie1966 said:


> Me too I read and read as my surgery are not very helpful. I keep to a low carb mainly plant based diet , peppers and onions give me the sweetness. We don’t buy any pre made food cook everything from scratch because we both enjoy cooking


If that's what works for you then awesome, I however after my eating disorder do now eat carbs as having an irrational fear of them isn't right so I make sure to have carbs these days as was all part of my recovery, only thing that comes from a pack here is my granola and cold meats lol xx


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## helli (Apr 7, 2021)

I went on a carb counting course 12 years after diagnosis. I learnt very little but it was worthwhile - I met other people with T1, saw some of the challenges they have, saw what affect bad management could have and, most importantly, qualified for a pump.
But carb counting was all self taught after being told “start with 1 unit of insulin for 15g carbs”. Only later did I learn this is relatively low start. Over the next 8 years, it increased to 1 unit for 10g and then went back down to 1 unit for 17g when I started my pump.
I only mention this to show how insulin to carb ratios can change, just like basal doses.


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## Spozkins (Apr 7, 2021)

I too have had the diabetes for a long time and feel like I was really too late to the educational side as so much changed over the years and I never really kept up. I can't advise you exactly how many carbs you should aim for each meal and overall, but I k ow there has been a lot of talk recently about the carbs and cals book, for t2s and t1s alike. I would high reccomend this book because it can be really helpful in building an understanding of the carbohydrates and portion sizes. 

So sorry to hear about the onset of your diagnosis.


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## Lucyr (Apr 8, 2021)

Leadinglights said:


> I think it can be quite confusing as there seems to be a mixture of people who are Type 1 using insulin  go with a low carb regime and those who eat a normal amount of carbs but count the carbs to work out their insulin. But for Type 2 control of carbs seems key, I'm not sure what people who are Type 2 but take insulin do. I suppose whatever you do testing is crucial to good management of the condition.


 To answer the what do people who are type 2 but take insulin do, it depends on the type on insulin. If they just take basal insulin then they might not count carbs. If they also take mealtime insulin they might be on fixed doses or they might carb count. Personally I carb count and adjust insulin to the carbs in the meal. Whether that’s an omelette or a pizza, I just learn the carb count, use my ratios, then adjust the timings of insulin doses to match the action of the food in the same way a type 1 would. Of course testing being key to working those things out.


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## Drummer (Apr 8, 2021)

adrian1der said:


> Theoretical physics


I took Understanding Space and Time as part of my degree with the Open University - I'm not sure that I ever arrived back from that one....
I did various courses and one day I realised that the people who had written them didn't understand what they were trying to teach, which was something of a relief really.


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