# I know low carb might be the only way but I don't want to.



## Nayshiftin (May 26, 2021)

Hi I am really struggling no matter how low I think I am going my blood sugars are not really coming down anymore they have remained in the 7 to ten and although the highest has not gone back to over 15 (which is in the night) why it does that I do not know, I had one spike after exercise too which I was told lowered it. But I would love to get it to about 4-6 as that would be normal. 
I know some of you eat 20g of carbs per day but I do not like meat and without any fruit/ bread, pasta, rice a lot of vegs. There is little left already. I do go between 40g and 80g but I do like veg and fruit. Even a pear or a carrot has carbs. I have been using courgettes and celeriac and cauliflower so I am trying hard. i do not have low-carb bread on a daily basis either and I do watch what I eat. To go low carb I don't know where to even start and cannot think what I would eat. Full fat yoghurt and nuts. I have already but that's a lot of calories. i do not like cream as it makes a mess in coffee. I would have to give up milk which is most of my daily carbs. Lunch would be easy as I can have coleslaw cheese and salad or crustless quiche frittata things but I get fed up Id not want it on a daily basis. For dinner, I have things like courgette, aubergine parmesan bake. Tonight it will be chicken curry for him and me the veg from it. I am not a meat fan. So even the peppers have carbs it's not easy. I am not on medication. Should I go back to Gp and go on meds that make me feel ill bloat and put on weight or what else can I try. I am moving as much as I can with my arthritis and drinking lots.


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## Inka (May 26, 2021)

Hi @Nayshiftin I wonder if you’ve seen this thread:

https://forum.diabetes.org.uk/boards/threads/a-broad-church-low-carb-is-not-the-only-way.91369/

You don’t have to go very low carb. Yes, peppers have carbs in as does broccoli and the like, but the amount is tiny. Could you set yourself a moderate carb limit per day - ie not ultra-low? Do you have weight to lose that would help things? Have you explored other diets eg Joel Fuhrman has a diet that includes lots of veg, and Neal Barnard has a similar diet but with more carbs, I think.


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## Leadinglights (May 26, 2021)

Nayshiftin said:


> Hi I am really struggling no matter how low I think I am going my blood sugars are not really coming down anymore they have remained in the 7 to ten and although the highest has not gone back to over 15 (which is in the night) why it does that I do not know, I had one spike after exercise too which I was told lowered it. But I would love to get it to about 4-6 as that would be normal.
> I know some of you eat 20g of carbs per day but I do not like meat and without any fruit/ bread, pasta, rice a lot of vegs. There is little left already. I do go between 40g and 80g but I do like veg and fruit. Even a pear or a carrot has carbs. I have been using courgettes and celeriac and cauliflower so I am trying hard. i do not have low-carb bread on a daily basis either and I do watch what I eat. To go low carb I don't know where to even start and cannot think what I would eat. Full fat yoghurt and nuts. I have already but that's a lot of calories. i do not like cream as it makes a mess in coffee. I would have to give up milk which is most of my daily carbs. Lunch would be easy as I can have coleslaw cheese and salad or crustless quiche frittata things but I get fed up Id not want it on a daily basis. For dinner, I have things like courgette, aubergine parmesan bake. Tonight it will be chicken curry for him and me the veg from it. I am not a meat fan. So even the peppers have carbs it's not easy. I am not on medication. Should I go back to Gp and go on meds that make me feel ill bloat and put on weight or what else can I try. I am moving as much as I can with my arthritis and drinking lots.


Maybe you are setting yourself an impossible challenge by expecting to get to between 4 and 6. my HbA1C is now down to 36mmol/mol but I am never lower than 5.5 mmol/l and that is before dinner when I have not eaten for 6 hours.
I am keeping to 60-70g carb per day.
Perhaps if you go back to keeping a strict food diary and recording your blood glucose before and 2 hours after your meals you could pin point any foods which are causing you to go higher.
You have made some good substitutions and your meals sound good if a bit lacking in variety which I suppose can become boring.
Look for some recipes which are low carb vegetarian and give some of those a try to see if they suit you.
If you want a pasta dish try edamame or blackbean pasta which is only 15g carb per 100g so a 25g portion which I find plenty would be only 4g carb so even when you add the sauce could be under 15g carb for your meal. Do you like halloumi as that can be grilled and had with stirfry veg for a low carb meal. Do you eat fish as that would be low carb, I have found one they call 'lightly dusted' so minimal crumb which are 15g ish carb per fillet.
It is certainly more difficult to get variety if you don't eat meat.


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## Nayshiftin (May 26, 2021)

Inka said:


> Hi @Nayshiftin I wonder if you’ve seen this thread:
> 
> https://forum.diabetes.org.uk/boards/threads/a-broad-church-low-carb-is-not-the-only-way.91369/
> 
> You don’t have to go very low carb. Yes, peppers have carbs in as does broccoli and the like, but the amount is tiny. Could you set yourself a moderate carb limit per day - ie not ultra-low? Do you have weight to lose that would help things? Have you explored other diets eg Joel Fuhrman has a diet that includes lots of veg, and Neal Barnard has a similar diet but with more carbs, I think.


I sincerely apologise please moderators take the post down. I was searching for help and not endorsing any diet . I love the forum and feel safe bc snd never ever meant to lead anyone wrong . I am very sorry. Thank you inks for leading me to the post but you could have asked mods to take it down . I am never ina way that I want to mislead or upset people. I’m just a confused idiot


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## Nayshiftin (May 26, 2021)

Leadinglights said:


> Maybe you are setting yourself an impossible challenge by expecting to get to between 4 and 6. my HbA1C is now down to 36mmol/mol but I am never lower than 5.5 mmol/l and that is before dinner when I have not eaten for 6 hours.
> I am keeping to 60-70g carb per day.
> Perhaps if you go back to keeping a strict food diary and recording your blood glucose before and 2 hours after your meals you could pin point any foods which are causing you to go higher.
> You have made some good substitutions and your meals sound good if a bit lacking in variety which I suppose can become boring.
> ...


I am trying to follow a diet and with my fitness pal I record all I eat . It’s in percent so I do okay and try snd keep things low. Just maybe have to be content . Thank you for your advice . It’s what I was looking for . I apologise if I am leading people the wrong way. Just read that ho lower it the carbs are low . I will plod on . I have lost over 10 kg so far but have many more to go. The marathon that the link on inks talked about is proving difficult . Thanks though you have giving me pointers


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## Leadinglights (May 26, 2021)

Nayshiftin said:


> I sincerely apologise please moderators take the post down. I was searching for help and not endorsing any diet . I love the forum and feel safe bc snd never ever meant to lead anyone wrong . I am very sorry. Thank you inks for leading me to the post but you could have asked mods to take it down . I am never ina way that I want to mislead or upset people. I’m just a confused idiot


Sorry but I see nothing wrong with your post.


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## silentsquirrel (May 26, 2021)

Nayshiftin said:


> I sincerely apologise please moderators take the post down. I was searching for help and not endorsing any diet . I love the forum and feel safe bc snd never ever meant to lead anyone wrong . I am very sorry. Thank you inks for leading me to the post but you could have asked mods to take it down . I am never ina way that I want to mislead or upset people. I’m just a confused idiot


_ I see absolutely nothing in your post that you should apologise for, nor anything that would mislead people or upset them.

Take small steps, think reduce rather than cut out, and find things you enjoy that work for you._


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## Ljc (May 26, 2021)

Nayshiftin said:


> I sincerely apologise please moderators take the post down. I was searching for help and not endorsing any diet . I love the forum and feel safe bc snd never ever meant to lead anyone wrong . I am very sorry. Thank you inks for leading me to the post but you could have asked mods to take it down . I am never ina way that I want to mislead or upset people. I’m just a confused idiot


I too see nothing wrong with the earlier post.
You do not need to apologise at all.


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## rebrascora (May 26, 2021)

@Inka wasn't criticizing your post in any way, I am sure of that. I think she was just suggesting that if you are struggling with low carb, then try a different approach like those mentioned in that thread. 
Your opening post is entirely justified and not a problem in any way so please don't concern yourself on that score. 

I have had reservations from early on that you may not be a regular Type 2 diabetic (possible slow onset Type 1) because you do not seem to be responding to low carb eating and I think you have given it a good go. I think I would be pretty demoralized if I was you, so don't feel like you are failing. It would be worth you trying a different approach, even if that means eating more carbs or trying the fast 800 (Newcastle Diet) if you think you could manage it (Not sure I could). 

Ultimately, it may be that you need medication if other approaches don't work. That is not a failure either although I know it felt like it for me when I was first started on insulin, but you eventually learn that your body needs help and sometimes diet alone is not enough.


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## Ljc (May 26, 2021)

You are obviously trying very hard to control your diabetes . sometimes it’s like trying to hold onto a wriggly worm. 
I agree you do not have to go ultra low carb that some ppl do, it is not fir everyone, when it was believed I had T2 , it wasn’t for me either .
You are doing your best and that is all you can do. 

We all get spikes even non diabetics do, it’s just that their body can handle things , where ours us rather naff at it . When I get a spike I can if needed correct it by jabbing in a bit more insulin , those with T2 who are diet controlled with or without tablets or are on non insulin injections don’t have that option.  

What I am trying to say is, cut yourself a little slack, I mean this in the nicest possible way.


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## Ljc (May 26, 2021)

Just read @rebrascora post above , some folks no matter how hard they try (and you are trying hard) they just can’t do it without medication.
And if you do not have T2 but are a slow onset T1 (LADA) then gradually or not so gradually T2 diet and medications stop working.


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## Inka (May 26, 2021)

Nayshiftin said:


> I sincerely apologise please moderators take the post down. I was searching for help and not endorsing any diet . I love the forum and feel safe bc snd never ever meant to lead anyone wrong . I am very sorry. Thank you inks for leading me to the post but you could have asked mods to take it down . I am never ina way that I want to mislead or upset people. I’m just a confused idiot



Why would I ask mods to take your post down? I only linked to that thread to show you that low carb isn’t the only way and that you shouldn’t feel you have to follow a very low carb diet or that you’ve somehow failed if you don’t eat 20g per day or whatever.

I think you’ve read my post wrong. I was encouraging you to explore other diets and to choose a carb limit that suits you as an individual. Not every Type 2 eats very low carb and you shouldn’t feel that you have to. Simply that. X


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## Inka (May 26, 2021)

Thank you @rebrascora for replying and you’re completely right. I was in no way criticising @Nayshiftin and would hate to think my post was taken that way.


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## Nayshiftin (May 26, 2021)

Inka said:


> Thank you @rebrascora for replying and you’re completely right. I was in no way criticising @Nayshiftin and would hate to think my post was taken that way.


I'm sorry Inka It's a very bad day for me here. I read the link everydayupsanddown moderator had in your link and the first thing I read was the gentle reminder. I thought you were saying that I was wrong and well I am in a mess today so forgive me. I probably read the moderator wrong too. I am going to speak to the Gp or nurse when I can to get an appointment to see if I can get help. Reading above whatever type of diabetes anyone has it is their struggle. Not sure I'd not worry about counting carbs and taking insulin and all sorts. I am really grateful you are there as I feel very alone with this without having the forum, I get enough somedays to get me through. I am glad you set me straight Inka as I was so upset as forums can be black and white and not taken as they are meant and I truly do not like drama. Tomorrow is another day.


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## Inka (May 26, 2021)

Be kind to yourself @Nayshiftin Diabetes is hard and we can only do our best. We also have to cope with everything else in life too. I’ve had Type 1 almost 30 years and it’s still a pain, and it can get me down some days too. When I find myself thinking negative thoughts, I try to think positive things - that I’m doing ok. I also remember that I’m not alone. There are many, many people here who understand.

Sending you my best wishes and my support. X


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## Nayshiftin (May 26, 2021)

Inka said:


> Be kind to yourself @Nayshiftin Diabetes is hard and we can only do our best. We also have to cope with everything else in life too. I’ve had Type 1 almost 30 years and it’s still a pain, and it can get me down some days too. When I find myself thinking negative thoughts, I try to think positive things - that I’m doing ok. I also remember that I’m not alone. There are many, many people here who understand.
> 
> Sending you my best wishes and my support. X


Many Thanks for your understanding


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## Sally W (May 26, 2021)

@Nayshiftin please don’t beat yourself up. I tried very low carb & found I was eating food I didn’t enjoy. What I’ve done now is read Tim Spector & Michael Mosley approach to eating a rainbow of colours with probiotic & prebiotic foods. I have reversed my diabetes now and actually enjoy what I eat. Books are available at the library. There is mostly reduction on highly processed foods such as bread, pasta etc but there are ways of cooking and certain varieties that are less starchy.  I’d like to add that just because it reversed my levels to normal we’re all different so whatever you try I’d recommend testing levels to see how certain foods affect you. Good luck on your journey


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## Nayshiftin (May 26, 2021)

Thank you, I'll look them out and see what to try next. Was out with my Nordic walking man who also put me through exercises and came back and it was 16 again. I know what I had for lunch did not affect it the other day so know that exercise makes it higher. It's down to 9 again very quickly but I have felt cranky all day. If it's at 6 I seem to feel better pain wise too. I shall look into Tim and Michael's books thanks.


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## pm133 (May 26, 2021)

@Nayshiftin, I'm afraid I have a terrible memory for things. Are you taking medication for your diabetes? If so, low carb absolutely isn't necessary so that's good news.
If you are attempting to do this without medication then that might be more difficult.


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## Leadinglights (May 26, 2021)

pm133 said:


> @Nayshiftin, I'm afraid I have a terrible memory for things. Are you taking medication for your diabetes? If so, low carb absolutely isn't necessary so that's good news.
> If you are attempting to do this without medication then that might be more difficult.


I think @Nayshiftin is wanting to do this without medication and does seem to have been really trying to make adjustments to her diet but is still experiencing high levels and is understandably getting disheartened.


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## pm133 (May 26, 2021)

Leadinglights said:


> I think @Nayshiftin is wanting to do this without medication and does seem to have been really trying to make adjustments to her diet but is still experiencing high levels and is understandably getting disheartened.


Yeah I thought that might be the problem.
I don't know enough about Type 2 to know if it's possible to do this without medication or low carbing. My instinct would be no, but I just don't know.


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## Leadinglights (May 26, 2021)

pm133 said:


> Yeah I thought that might be the problem.
> I don't know enough about Type 2 to know if it's possible to do this without medication or low carbing. My instinct would be no, but I just don't know.


I started off at 50mmol/mol last June which I know isn't terribly high but with no meds and low carb I have reduced it to 36mmol/mol now (42 in Sept, 38 in Dec) but as we know everybody is different, a few people suspect she may not be Type 2 but I also gather she is struggling to lose weight which doesn't point to Type 1.


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## Deleted member 25429 (May 26, 2021)

Nayshiftin said:


> I'm sorry Inka It's a very bad day for me here. I read the link everydayupsanddown moderator had in your link and the first thing I read was the gentle reminder. I thought you were saying that I was wrong and well I am in a mess today so forgive me. I probably read the moderator wrong too. I am going to speak to the Gp or nurse when I can to get an appointment to see if I can get help. Reading above whatever type of diabetes anyone has it is their struggle. Not sure I'd not worry about counting carbs and taking insulin and all sorts. I am really grateful you are there as I feel very alone with this without having the forum, I get enough somedays to get me through. I am glad you set me straight Inka as I was so upset as forums can be black and white and not taken as they are meant and I truly do not like drama. Tomorrow is another day.


We all have frustrating days , I scream and moan some days when it just won’t play ball . I have had to learn to write the day off as a bad day and     dust myself off and focus on tomorrow is another day . Loosing weight is very difficult, I don’t think that people that have never struggled with weight appreciate this . Some nurses don’t realise that what they say upsets you . Sometimes the understanding you get from this forum , people that actually live with diabetes is more helpful. I hope you can have a good nights sleep and look on tomorrow as a new day x


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## Jo121 (May 26, 2021)

Nayshiftin said:


> Hi I am really struggling no matter how low I think I am going my blood sugars are not really coming down anymore they have remained in the 7 to ten and although the highest has not gone back to over 15 (which is in the night) why it does that I do not know, I had one spike after exercise too which I was told lowered it. But I would love to get it to about 4-6 as that would be normal.
> I know some of you eat 20g of carbs per day but I do not like meat and without any fruit/ bread, pasta, rice a lot of vegs. There is little left already. I do go between 40g and 80g but I do like veg and fruit. Even a pear or a carrot has carbs. I have been using courgettes and celeriac and cauliflower so I am trying hard. i do not have low-carb bread on a daily basis either and I do watch what I eat. To go low carb I don't know where to even start and cannot think what I would eat. Full fat yoghurt and nuts. I have already but that's a lot of calories. i do not like cream as it makes a mess in coffee. I would have to give up milk which is most of my daily carbs. Lunch would be easy as I can have coleslaw cheese and salad or crustless quiche frittata things but I get fed up Id not want it on a daily basis. For dinner, I have things like courgette, aubergine parmesan bake. Tonight it will be chicken curry for him and me the veg from it. I am not a meat fan. So even the peppers have carbs it's not easy. I am not on medication. Should I go back to Gp and go on meds that make me feel ill bloat and put on weight or what else can I try. I am moving as much as I can with my arthritis and drinking lots.


I feel very similar to you as I seem to have similar tastes in food and about meat etc. I've just decided that I really cant go low low carb. I track on mfp and I dont eat sweets, cakes etc or processed sugars and my carbs are about 80 to 110g per day. I have brown pasta and rice but just weigh it out and my sugars with medication seem to manage that. Can you go back to your doctor as its their job to help find a way you can fit the diabetes into your life and as you are really trying they hopefully can offer more advice


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## trophywench (May 26, 2021)

It is very difficult to divorce oneself personally from info given to you by sundry other people who we don't actually know.

Some are very definite about what they say to others - and it's rarely that flippin definite what might really help the other person.  You know for definite when you see eg that house is on fire or that person is waving a gun about, what you should do - ie dial 999 - but even then only if & when it's safe for you personally to stop and use your phone.

Not everyone says 'what helped/helps me in these circs is blah blah, so maybe it could help you too' but instead *tells* you to do blah blah giving you the impression that is the only way.

See what a number of answers say and see if there's any consensus how to deal with it.  Otherwise because you are doing your very own clinical trial with your diabetes, try one thing and if that doesn't work, try the next.  Most of them won't be instantly successful though - cos diabetes just doesn't do 'instant' !


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## TinaD (May 26, 2021)

Sorry you are having such a hard time Nayshiftin. Professor Roy Taylor of Newcastle University, who has carried out a lot of research on Type 2 remission through diet, says the important thing is to get the weight off - it doesn't matter if it is low carb, calorie counting, low fat - whatever helps get the visceral fat away from your pancreas. The best diet is the one you can stick to, makes you lose weight, and doesn't make you totally miserable. When enough weight comes off for your personal leveI he says you will get your blood sugars under control. (Obviously avoiding a high carb intake is necessary in any event and using unrefined rather than refined carbs also helps by spreading out the impact.)
I quite agree with other comments saying your diabetic team ought to be helping and advising you. Some of us are having good success with very low carbs, others with moderate, carbs, and some with other diets combined with various prescriptions - which route forward for you will depend on your choices aided by their advice. Good luck and try to avoid stress. Remember we are all different and what works for one may not work for others so you have, as Trophywench suggests, to do your own research into you. 
As to your post - no apologies needed in my view - it just sounded like you were having a really rough time and needed to vent to people who would understand..


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## pm133 (May 26, 2021)

TinaD said:


> Sorry you are having such a hard time Nayshiftin. Professor Roy Taylor of Newcastle University, who has carried out a lot of research on Type 2 remission through diet, says the important thing is to get the weight off - it doesn't matter if it is low carb, calorie counting, low fat - whatever helps get the visceral fat away from your pancreas. The best diet is the one you can stick to, makes you lose weight, and doesn't make you totally miserable. When enough weight comes off for your personal leveI he says you will get your blood sugars under control. (Obviously avoiding a high carb intake is necessary in any event and using unrefined rather than refined carbs also helps by spreading out the impact.)


I'm pretty sure he also says that his ideas don't work for everyone.


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## travellor (May 26, 2021)

pm133 said:


> I'm pretty sure he also says that his ideas don't work for everyone.



Very, very true.
The takeaway is we all need to find our own terms at to cope.
Low carb didn't work at all for me either.
I gravitated to Prof Taylor for this very reason.


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## Drummer (May 26, 2021)

I strongly suspect that what is termed type 2 is actually a number of different problems lumped together, not to mention the misdiagnosed.
My type two did an abrupt about face and vanished when I ate low carb, so I term it ordinary and almost boring. Those who find low carb doesn't work for them must find me very irritating, but I'm not trying to blame them, they obviously have a far more complex set of circumstances to sort out, and that GPs don't help, or even seem to be interested is not kind.


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## TinaD (May 26, 2021)

He says "It’s now clear that type 2 diabetes is caused by abnormal fat storage. If you are eating more than you burn, then the excess is stored in the liver and pancreas as fat. On this diet …the body is suddenly in negative calorie balance, so it calls on its own reserves of fat.The fat used first is that around the pancreas and liver. This means the pancreas is given a chance to start working again.” That "chance" appears to be success for around  for 46% of those following his guidance. Others reduce their need for medication. He is, however, not insistent on which diet acheives the weight loss.


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## pm133 (May 26, 2021)

Drummer said:


> I strongly suspect that what is termed type 2 is actually a number of different problems lumped together, not to mention the misdiagnosed.
> My type two did an abrupt about face and vanished when I ate low carb, so I term it ordinary and almost boring. Those who find low carb doesn't work for them must find me very irritating, but I'm not trying to blame them, they obviously have a far more complex set of circumstances to sort out, and that GPs don't help, or even seem to be interested is not kind.


Your diabetes vanished?
I thought you were only holding it at bay through extreme low carbing?


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## pm133 (May 26, 2021)

travellor said:


> Very, very true.
> The takeaway is we all need to find our own terms at to cope.
> Low carb didn't work at all for me either.
> I gravitated to Prof Taylor for this very reason.



I suppose where I'm coming from is that when people forget to wrap all these wonderful results they are experiencing with necessary caveats, it ends up being something people use to beat themselves up with when it doesn't work for them.

Low carbers and extreme dieters who do see success for themselves can be pretty bad for this in my experience.


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## Nayshiftin (May 26, 2021)

Freddie1966 said:


> We all have frustrating days , I scream and moan some days when it just won’t play ball . I have had to learn to write the day off as a bad day and     dust myself off and focus on tomorrow is another day . Loosing weight is very difficult, I don’t think that people that have never struggled with weight appreciate this . Some nurses don’t realise that what they say upsets you . Sometimes the understanding you get from this forum , people that actually live with diabetes is more helpful. I hope you can have a good nights sleep and look on tomorrow as a new day x


Thank you


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## Lucyr (May 27, 2021)

Nayshiftin said:


> Hi I am really struggling no matter how low I think I am going my blood sugars are not really coming down anymore they have remained in the 7 to ten and although the highest has not gone back to over 15 (which is in the night) why it does that I do not know, I had one spike after exercise too which I was told lowered it. But I would love to get it to about 4-6 as that would be normal.
> I know some of you eat 20g of carbs per day but I do not like meat and without any fruit/ bread, pasta, rice a lot of vegs. There is little left already. I do go between 40g and 80g but I do like veg and fruit. Even a pear or a carrot has carbs. I have been using courgettes and celeriac and cauliflower so I am trying hard. i do not have low-carb bread on a daily basis either and I do watch what I eat. To go low carb I don't know where to even start and cannot think what I would eat. Full fat yoghurt and nuts. I have already but that's a lot of calories. i do not like cream as it makes a mess in coffee. I would have to give up milk which is most of my daily carbs. Lunch would be easy as I can have coleslaw cheese and salad or crustless quiche frittata things but I get fed up Id not want it on a daily basis. For dinner, I have things like courgette, aubergine parmesan bake. Tonight it will be chicken curry for him and me the veg from it. I am not a meat fan. So even the peppers have carbs it's not easy. I am not on medication. Should I go back to Gp and go on meds that make me feel ill bloat and put on weight or what else can I try. I am moving as much as I can with my arthritis and drinking lots.


If low carb doesn’t work for you, it isn’t the only way. It doesn’t work for me either. I get bad diarrhoea if I eat a meal with fat but not carbs, eg omelette for breakfast and I’ll be rushing to the loo all morning, egg on a piece of toast and I’m fine. I also couldn’t deal with the restrictions of low carb for other reasons like already having a limited diet and finding that limiting one food group in particular wasn’t good for my thought patterns.

I think it’s just about understanding moderation, you can find a balance that works for you somewhere between the 20g a day some people here eat and the typical british diet. Include some carbs but focus on reduced portion sizes or on getting more carbs from better sources like vegetables, beans and pulses. Monitor the impact on your blood sugar and consider whether medication would help you get the right balance. There’s no shame in taking medication to help you reach a sustainable diet with good blood sugars.


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## Drummer (May 27, 2021)

pm133 said:


> Your diabetes vanished?
> I thought you were only holding it at bay through extreme low carbing?


Well the background retinopathy went, I lost quite a bit of weight, I got my energy back and my strength and endurance have increased, my shape has changed, my skin is soft and supple and my colouring is normal rather than flushed pink, my joints and muscles don't ache and I am far more flexible.
What I still can't do is what I have never been able to do, eat carbs without gaining weight, so either I have always been diabetic or I am back to normal.

The amount of carbs I can eat means I can have tasty and varied meals, so it doesn't feel at all extreme.


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## Leadinglights (May 27, 2021)

Lucyr said:


> If low carb doesn’t work for you, it isn’t the only way. It doesn’t work for me either. I get bad diarrhoea if I eat a meal with fat but not carbs, eg omelette for breakfast and I’ll be rushing to the loo all morning, egg on a piece of toast and I’m fine. I also couldn’t deal with the restrictions of low carb for other reasons like already having a limited diet and finding that limiting one food group in particular wasn’t good for my thought patterns.
> 
> I think it’s just about understanding moderation, you can find a balance that works for you somewhere between the 20g a day some people here eat and the typical british diet. Include some carbs but focus on reduced portion sizes or on getting more carbs from better sources like vegetables, beans and pulses. Monitor the impact on your blood sugar and consider whether medication would help you get the right balance. There’s no shame in taking medication to help you reach a sustainable diet with good blood sugars.


You seem to have found an approach which works for you, a slice of toast with your egg doesn't add up to that many carbs and beans and pulses are much more flavoursome than potatoes or rice and as you say portion size is important. So crucial to be eating food you actually like and then your diet will be sustainable and be just your way of life not something you have to think about or be feared. You don't think about brushing your teeth it is just automatic, that's what you do.


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## Nayshiftin (May 27, 2021)

Yesterday . Is s day to say I got through . I ended up having rice for dinner my bloods were 16.5 and I was in s place I was not really helping myself . My Nordic walk snd exercise left me feeling sore snd sorry too especially with 16.5 on the blood monitor . Two hours later it’s 7.5 so either the fluid in the curry or I needed carbs to level it . I woke up to 8.5 this morning . I bought s new metre. I checked with the old snd Biggs vary on a second reading of about two points between them . My hubby says it’s so annoying your hungry on a bit of salad n coleslaw whilst we eat s Sunday roast. I gong like meat can t have  the stuffing, potatoes, carrots, peas, sweetcorn or Yorkshire so what’s the point . Then I was having cauliflower when he had rice s as Nd looking last time it went up two with the same homemade curry but with rice it went down. So he is saying it’s all nonsense  If I just ate snd no test would I go back to 33 . I don’t know. I don’t think I’ll ever understand or cope with this . In case people ask I had about 3 tablespoons of rice


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## Leadinglights (May 27, 2021)

Nayshiftin said:


> Yesterday . Is s day to say I got through . I ended up having rice for dinner my bloods were 16.5 and I was in s place I was not really helping myself . My Nordic walk snd exercise left me feeling sore snd sorry too especially with 16.5 on the blood monitor . Two hours later it’s 7.5 so either the fluid in the curry or I needed carbs to level it . I woke up to 8.5 this morning . I bought s new metre. I checked with the old snd Biggs vary on a second reading of about two points between them . My hubby says it’s so annoying your hungry on a bit of salad n coleslaw whilst we eat s Sunday roast. I gong like meat can t have  the stuffing, potatoes, carrots, peas, sweetcorn or Yorkshire so what’s the point . Then I was having cauliflower when he had rice s as Nd looking last time it went up two with the same homemade curry but with rice it went down. So he is saying it’s all nonsense  If I just ate snd no test would I go back to 33 . I don’t know. I don’t think I’ll ever understand or cope with this . In case people ask I had about 3 tablespoons of rice


Please don't take this the wrong way but I think everybody is at a loss to know what is going on with you as you seem to be doing all the right things but are still struggling. 
I don't know who you are seeing medic wise but I think you need to be asking to be referred to a specialist.


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## travellor (May 27, 2021)

TinaD said:


> He says "It’s now clear that type 2 diabetes is caused by abnormal fat storage. If you are eating more than you burn, then the excess is stored in the liver and pancreas as fat. On this diet …the body is suddenly in negative calorie balance, so it calls on its own reserves of fat.The fat used first is that around the pancreas and liver. This means the pancreas is given a chance to start working again.” That "chance" appears to be success for around  for 46% of those following his guidance. Others reduce their need for medication. He is, however, not insistent on which diet acheives the weight loss.


I didn't find internal fat was the first to go. 
To me, it was more like the last!


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## Terry-J (May 27, 2021)

Blood glucose can vary a lot depending on the type of exercise. Fairly strenuous exercise is likely to boost your blood glucose. This article explains why -









						Why Does My Sugar Go Up After Exercise? - Diabetes Health
					

Low insulin coupled with physical activity stimulates the secretion of several other hormones such as epinephrine, norepinephrine, cortisol



					www.diabeteshealth.com
				




You can exercise in a different way and keep your blood sugars from going up too much. As a general rule of thumb, subtract your age from 180 and aim to keep your pulse around that figure. Example - if your aged 50 them aim for a pulse rate of 130. Slowing the heart rate will encourage your body to burn fat for energy rather than demanding glucose for energy.


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## travellor (May 27, 2021)

Terry-J said:


> Blood glucose can vary a lot depending on the type of exercise. Fairly strenuous exercise is likely to boost your blood glucose. This article explains why -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's the recommended rate for strenuous exercise?
I always aimed to get my liver dumping glucose early on, then I could use the rise in blood glucose as I exercised, then get onto fat burning.
And, as a type two, I found the exercise decreased my insulin resistance, so eventually I could use the glucose better, and didn't see rise in BG.


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## helli (May 27, 2021)

This article ignores the fact that we become more efficient at using insulin (more insulin sensitive/less insulin resistant) when exercising which is why many of us experience lower blood sugars when exercising. It just depends on what type of exercise and how fit you are at that type of exercise. 
The article suggests that strenuous exercise will cause a rise but a hard cycle ride definitely drops mine. 
I believe this is because the increased insulin efficiency/sensitivity overcomes the liver dump if I exercise for long enough - interval training causes a rise because the insulin efficiency does not occur. 

In addition, because the liver has dumped glucose during exercise, there is less left in the "tank" to dump over the next 24 to 48 hours which is why we often experience lower levels for a day or two after exercise regardless what the immediate impact was.


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## pm133 (May 27, 2021)

helli said:


> This article ignores the fact that we become more efficient at using insulin (more insulin sensitive/less insulin resistant) when exercising which is why many of us experience lower blood sugars when exercising. It just depends on what type of exercise and how fit you are at that type of exercise.
> The article suggests that strenuous exercise will cause a rise but a hard cycle ride definitely drops mine.
> I believe this is because the increased insulin efficiency/sensitivity overcomes the liver dump if I exercise for long enough - interval training causes a rise because the insulin efficiency does not occur.
> 
> In addition, because the liver has dumped glucose during exercise, there is less left in the "tank" to dump over the next 24 to 48 hours which is why we often experience lower levels for a day or two after exercise regardless what the immediate impact was.



I find I only get a drop in blood glucose after my insulin has kicked in. Otherwise it'll just stay where it is.
The article talks about that in terms of insulin resistance which I suppose is the issue for Type 2s.


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## TinaD (May 27, 2021)

travellor said:


> I didn't find internal fat was the first to go.
> To me, it was more like the last!


Did you get scanned to see? If so maybe you should tell Taylor's research team as it might be worth investigating since he obviously has some people who do not respond to sudden and sufficient weight loss and also explain the TOFI oddity.


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## TinaD (May 27, 2021)

pm133 said:


> Your diabetes vanished?
> I thought you were only holding it at bay through extreme low carbing?


I find it interesting that the terms "reversing type 2" and "remission" and "cure" are all bandied about without a clear definition. Presumably all these scientists must know how important it is to be clear? For myself I satisfy the "cure" idea that my GP uses (2 satisfacory HbA1c) whilst to me it is evident that I am holding onto remission (or good control) only by keeping my carbs lower than the average caveman. Dinosaur steak - yes - Apple - no. Hmm maybe that is the meaning of the Adam and Eve story in Genesis?


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## travellor (May 27, 2021)

TinaD said:


> Did you get scanned to see? If so maybe you should tell Taylor's research team as it might be worth investigating since he obviously has some people who do not respond to sudden and sufficient weight loss and also explain the TOFI oddity.



No, I did it a time ago, just after the first news was published.
I did a normal slow diet, to reduce my weight significantly, which helped enormously, but it took the rapid weight loss at the end to reverse the diabetes. So, it was either the very low calorie restriction in some way, or the final weight loss. 
(Which to be fair, is the only way actually trialled so far, other evidence is anecdotal, unless there are other trials) 
A scan of me last week shows I don't have any internal fat on my liver, or spleen, my pancreas was hiding under my colon though!
Apparently it's not uncommon.


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## TinaD (May 27, 2021)

travellor said:


> No, I did it a time ago, just after the first news was published.
> I did a normal slow diet, to reduce my weight significantly, which helped enormously, but it took the rapid weight loss at the end to reverse the diabetes. So, it was either the very low calorie restriction in some way, or the final weight loss.
> (Which to be fair, is the only way actually trialled so far, other evidence is anecdotal, unless there are other trials)
> A scan of me last week shows I don't have any internal fat on my liver, or spleen, my pancreas was hiding under my colon though!
> Apparently it's not uncommon.


Soin the interests of establishing a clear definition: do you still have diabetes (raised blood sugar levels) with a strictly controlled by diet and no medications(remission or good control) or are you able to eat a diet containing a significant amount of carbs without medications, say above 30% of your total calories, without your blood sugar rising (reversal or even possibly cured.?


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## pm133 (May 27, 2021)

TinaD said:


> I find it interesting that the terms "reversing type 2" and "remission" and "cure" are all bandied about without a clear definition. Presumably all these scientists must know how important it is to be clear? For myself I satisfy the "cure" idea that my GP uses (2 satisfacory HbA1c) whilst to me it is evident that I am holding onto remission (or good control) only by keeping my carbs lower than the average caveman. Dinosaur steak - yes - Apple - no. Hmm maybe that is the meaning of the Adam and Eve story in Genesis?



Yeah unfortunately getting scientists to agree on anything is as difficult as it is in any other profession. When you mix prestige, money, power and influence you'll find people fighting. Science isn't exempt and seen plenty of examples of this during the pandemic with scientists engaging in unseemly media whoring.

As for these definitions, I suppose it really doesn't matter as long as people are not using these terms to damage or mislead other people.

I'm still holding onto the view that the Adam and Eve story was about sex.


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## Nayshiftin (May 27, 2021)

Terry-J said:


> Blood glucose can vary a lot depending on the type of exercise. Fairly strenuous exercise is likely to boost your blood glucose. This article explains why -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you that might explain some of it


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## travellor (May 27, 2021)

TinaD said:


> Soin the interests of establishing a clear definition: do you still have diabetes (raised blood sugar levels) with a strictly controlled by diet and no medications(remission or good control) or are you able to eat a diet containing a significant amount of carbs without medications, say above 30% of your total calories, without your blood sugar rising (reversal or even possibly cured.?



Well, everyone's blood sugar rises, however my insulin response maintains it within an acceptable "normal" response level.
I don't count carbs, I eat a classic healthy diet, Mediterranean style, low fat, very low saturated fats, but I do maintain my weight through calorie reduction when required, and exercise.
I still (normally) have an annual review, eye test etc. so I am monitored by my GP.


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## Nayshiftin (May 27, 2021)

helli said:


> This article ignores the fact that we become more efficient at using insulin (more insulin sensitive/less insulin resistant) when exercising which is why many of us experience lower blood sugars when exercising. It just depends on what type of exercise and how fit you are at that type of exercise.
> The article suggests that strenuous exercise will cause a rise but a hard cycle ride definitely drops mine.
> I believe this is because the increased insulin efficiency/sensitivity overcomes the liver dump if I exercise for long enough - interval training causes a rise because the insulin efficiency does not occur.
> 
> In addition, because the liver has dumped glucose during exercise, there is less left in the "tank" to dump over the next 24 to 48 hours which is why we often experience lower levels for a day or two after exercise regardless what the immediate impact was.


That really makes sense. So I get a dump then I get the benefit so if I keep at it. It should help. I was thinking it was food when maybe its my erratic behaviour as sometimes I am lazy and sometimes overactive


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## pm133 (May 27, 2021)

travellor said:


> Well, everyone's blood sugar rises, however my insulin response maintains it within an acceptable "normal" response level.
> I don't count carbs, I eat a classic healthy diet, Mediterranean style, low fat, very low saturated fats, but I do maintain my weight through calorie reduction when required, and exercise.
> I still (normally) have an annual review, eye test etc. so I am monitored by my GP.


I meant to ask you before, do you have a rough feel for how many calories and how many carbs you are eating each day? Or do you not keep a record?


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## Nayshiftin (May 27, 2021)

pm133 said:


> I meant to ask you before, do you have a rough feel for how many calories and how many carbs you are eating each day? Or do you not keep a record?


Yes I have Myfitnesspal app set up so I can lose weight. I have lost over 10kg


pm133 said:


> I meant to ask you before, do you have a rough feel for how many calories and how many carbs you are eating each day? Or do you not keep a record?


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## Nayshiftin (May 27, 2021)

Yes I use my fitness pal and since 30 th March  I have lost a stone and a half do that’s 2 lb a week at least . So weight wise I am stable . I keep my carbs in check but not as low as 20 so I really don’t know . It’s up and down all the way. I struggle to understand but I am getting there . I do have a lot of pain and it might be the pain killers and tiredness too.


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## Leadinglights (May 27, 2021)

Nayshiftin said:


> Yes I use my fitness pal and since 30 th March  I have lost a stone and a half do that’s 2 lb a week at least . So weight wise I am stable . I keep my carbs in check but not as low as 20 so I really don’t know . It’s up and down all the way. I struggle to understand but I am getting there . I do have a lot of pain and it might be the pain killers and tiredness too.


You are doing really well with your weight loss but your glucose levels going up and down is not ideal. Perhaps you need to keep a better record of your carbs per meal, as it might point to some foods which you are particularly intolerant to.
There is no need to be going as low as 20g per day but set yourself something achievable like 15-20g per meal and see how you go. The rice you mentioned that you had 3 tablespoons might well have been 30g carb.
I remember at work we had to set SMART objectives, specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, timeframe.


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## TinaD (May 27, 2021)

travellor said:


> Well, everyone's blood sugar rises, however my insulin response maintains it within an acceptable "normal" response level.
> I don't count carbs, I eat a classic healthy diet, Mediterranean style, low fat, very low saturated fats, but I do maintain my weight through calorie reduction when required, and exercise.
> I still (normally) have an annual review, eye test etc. so I am monitored by my GP.


Well done. This is what I hope for in the future. At the moment I cannot manage carbs above 20gms without going outside normal limits - I have lost roughly 30% of my body weight, have a BMI of 22.9 but am still on a low daily steroid dose (hopefully will end tail off in 4 weeks time). Exercise is a bit restricted by heart, COPD and arthritis but I potter well over 10k steps a day - on some days swearing quite inventively. How lovely it would be to have a slice of freshly baked bread...My GP couldn't monitor a donkey race. He thinks 2 clear HbAics means you are cured when, in my case, it may well mean you are banting, a concept he seems unable to comprehend. If Prof Taylor is right I may be able to join you in your Mediterranean gourmet lifestyle one day.


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## travellor (May 27, 2021)

pm133 said:


> I meant to ask you before, do you have a rough feel for how many calories and how many carbs you are eating each day? Or do you not keep a record?


I don't want to intrude in others posts, but I don't record carbs. I do have a good feel of calories. Three meals a day, no junk snacks. Not to say I won't eat a Macdonald's, but that is a meal. 
My main guide of food is the mirror.
The scales help, but is weight is either fat or muscle. My shape tells me the difference.


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## Nayshiftin (May 28, 2021)

Leadinglights said:


> You are doing really well with your weight loss but your glucose levels going up and down is not ideal. Perhaps you need to keep a better record of your carbs per meal, as it might point to some foods which you are particularly intolerant to.
> There is no need to be going as low as 20g per day but set yourself something achievable like 15-20g per meal and see how you go. The rice you mentioned that you had 3 tablespoons might well have been 30g carb.
> I remember at work we had to set SMART objectives, specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, timeframe.


I only had the rice as so in the heat of low carb not working and I proved that again last night as hubby said to finish it and I have a read of 5.8 this morning. It seems to be exercise and not food-related. I do note what I eat and know some things like bread even the Bergen will raise my Blood level but it might be that day at that time. I can start with this and have an omelet and it could be 16 in two hours. I will start the day with 9,5 and go down to 5,8  after the two-hour wait. Unless I buy a libre to see exactly when etc I will not know when it dumps the glucose. Some days I can feel it and somedays my mood tells me the highs are there. My plan is to see the Gp again and maybe be referred to a dietician.


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## Nayshiftin (May 28, 2021)

TinaD said:


> Well done. This is what I hope for in the future. At the moment I cannot manage carbs above 20gms without going outside normal limits - I have lost roughly 30% of my body weight, have a BMI of 22.9 but am still on a low daily steroid dose (hopefully will end tail off in 4 weeks time). Exercise is a bit restricted by heart, COPD and arthritis but I potter well over 10k steps a day - on some days swearing quite inventively. How lovely it would be to have a slice of freshly baked bread...My GP couldn't monitor a donkey race. He thinks 2 clear HbAics means you are cured when, in my case, it may well mean you are banting, a concept he seems unable to comprehend. If Prof Taylor is right I may be able to join you in your Mediterranean gourmet lifestyle one day.


Well done you with your 10k steps per day. I am proud of you for achieving that well done.


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## Leadinglights (May 28, 2021)

Nayshiftin said:


> I only had the rice as so in the heat of low carb not working and I proved that again last night as hubby said to finish it and I have a read of 5.8 this morning. It seems to be exercise and not food-related. I do note what I eat and know some things like bread even the Bergen will raise my Blood level but it might be that day at that time. I can start with this and have an omelet and it could be 16 in two hours. I will start the day with 9,5 and go down to 5,8  after the two-hour wait. Unless I buy a libre to see exactly when etc I will not know when it dumps the glucose. Some days I can feel it and somedays my mood tells me the highs are there. My plan is to see the Gp again and maybe be referred to a dietician.


I think that is a very good idea, as you do need to get to the bottom of the erratic behaviour your body is dishing out. Maybe ask for a referral to a diabetic specialist. They may be able to set you up with a continuous monitor for a period of time to see what is going on, just as they often give people a heart monitor.


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## Nayshiftin (May 28, 2021)

My guess is they will just do an HbA1c and if that is lowering snd my weight is too. I think in this area they really just think type 2 is due to bring fat and don’t really care. So it is down to me to care for me. At the end of the day.


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## Nayshiftin (May 28, 2021)

https://www.mysugr.com/en/blog/high-blood-sugar-after-exercise/.   I read this so I  think I will see someone soon


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