# What gender are you?



## Leadinglights (May 29, 2021)

Sometimes I think I might have said something inappropriate as it's not easy to know what gender somebody is but hopefully nobody is offended.
I rather liked the cartoon. I have known people with diabetic dogs and cats so maybe they were checking the site out.


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## Inka (May 29, 2021)

Do you mean Sex? I’m female (bit of a clue from my Pregnancy posts   ) I’ve mistaken people’s Sex before here. It’s an easy mistake to make and I’m sure no-one minds. There are a number of people here whose Sex I don’t know, but I find it doesn’t really matter the majority of the time


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## rebrascora (May 29, 2021)

It is interesting though when people have a user name which either suggests their sex is the opposite of what it is or is ambivalent and you form an opinion of them based solely on their posts and then sometimes you find out that you were wrong or one day you think they are male and then another day you think "No, they're definitely female". It is also interesting how your mind wants to classify people in that way, even when it isn't necessary.


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## pm133 (May 29, 2021)

Leadinglights said:


> Sometimes I think I might have said something inappropriate as it's not easy to know what gender somebody is but hopefully nobody is offended.
> I rather liked the cartoon. I have known people with diabetic dogs and cats so maybe they were checking the site out.


If you mean "sex" then nobody should be getting offended by someone thinking they are one sex instead of the other. Some names are sex-neutral and some are using username aliases so it's not always possible to know.

If you mean "gender" then good luck with that discussion. 
Someone much smarter than me might be able to explain it in layman's terms but I only need to read the words from Wiki - "It was in the 1970s that feminist scholars adopted the term _gender_ as way of distinguishing "socially constructed" aspects of male–female differences (gender) from "biologically determined" aspects (sex)." and my eyes glaze over. I won't lie. I have no idea what on earth they are talking about.


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## Robin (May 29, 2021)

Leaving aside the whole sex/gender/people with a cervix debate as more appropriate for somewhere else...
Yes, I find I build up a picture of someone based on what they’ve said, however much I am trying to treat them purely and simply as a person with diabetes, and sometimes it becomes apparent that the picture is plain wrong! Whether it’s that someone suddenly mentions their pregnancy/menopause, or their retirement when you thought they were in their 30s.
 I'm sure nobody is offended, if they haven’t chosen to signal more detail in their profile or with a photo, then they can’t be surprised if someone makes an inaccurate assumption.
I have a neutral first name. Back in the unreconstructed late 1970s, I was once called for a job interview, and was gobsmacked when my interviewer's jaw dropped as I entered the room and he said with undisguised dismay 'Oh, I thought you were going to be a man!' As I had summed up the office in 30 seconds as I entered and decided no way would I ever take a job in that place, the interview was very short!


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## nonethewiser (May 29, 2021)

Non binary.


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## Deleted member 25429 (May 29, 2021)

Sorry I’m female... used one of our dogs name


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## trophywench (May 29, 2021)

nonethewiser said:


> Non binary.


See that's exactly one of the problems - what the hell does that mean?  Isn't Binary summat to do with computer programming?

'Woke' is the past tense of the verb to wake.  Nob all else in my vocabulary.

Be polite and treat everyone equally and with respect.  What else does anyone ever need to do?


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## trophywench (May 29, 2021)

Freddie1966 said:


> Sorry I’m female... used one of our dogs name


Quite like the name Frederika , meself !  Worked with a girl called Bobbie - Roberta.


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## Leadinglights (May 29, 2021)

My neighbour took a bouquet of flowers in for me from a grateful student who had just got her PhD who always called herself George, they looked at me with great suspicion as they were obviously not form my OH.
I hadn't dreamt the thread would be such a hot potato.


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## Inka (May 29, 2021)

Freddie1966 said:


> Sorry I’m female... used one of our dogs name



Yes, I was thinking of you when I wrote my post because I’d wrongly assumed you were male


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## Inka (May 29, 2021)

*Someone much smarter than me might be able to explain it in layman's terms but I only need to read the words from Wiki - "It was in the 1970s that feminist scholars adopted the term gender as way of distinguishing "socially constructed" aspects of male–female differences (gender) from "biologically determined" aspects (sex)." and my eyes glaze over. I won't lie. I have no idea what on earth they are talking about.*

I very much doubt I’m smarter than you @pm133  but the simple way I was told in relation to being female was that Sex is _why_ we are oppressed, and Gender is one of the _ways in which _we’re oppressed - ie by expectations of how women and girls should behave, what jobs they should do, what they should wear, etc etc. Basically, sex is biological, gender is sociological/stereotypes. Men can be affected by gender too eg ‘not a real man’, ‘boys don’t cry’, etc etc.


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## Robin (May 29, 2021)

Inka said:


> *Someone much smarter than me might be able to explain it in layman's terms but I only need to read the words from Wiki - "It was in the 1970s that feminist scholars adopted the term gender as way of distinguishing "socially constructed" aspects of male–female differences (gender) from "biologically determined" aspects (sex)." and my eyes glaze over. I won't lie. I have no idea what on earth they are talking about.*
> 
> I very much doubt I’m smarter than you @pm133  but the simple way I was told in relation to being female was that Sex is _why_ we are oppressed, and Gender is one of the _ways in which _we’re oppressed - ie by expectations of how women and girls should behave, what jobs they should do, what they should wear, etc etc. Basically, sex is biological, gender is sociological/stereotypes. Men can be affected by gender too eg ‘not a real man’, ‘boys don’t cry’, etc etc.


Thank you for clarifying your definition, I had noticed somewhere  else on the forum that you’d insisted on the term sex, not gender, and I now understand where you are coming from. 
The trouble is, I think the definitions have changed over time. According to my children, who are round about 30, sex is the designation you were assigned at birth, and gender is how you feel yourself to be. So to them, insistence on using the term Sex instead of Gender is transphobic, (I had to sit down and get them to explain it to me, I’m a bit of a dinosaur).
Going back to your definition, having been one of the first women commercial property managers, (there were 5 of us, and around 40 men) and making the decision between us that we were going to wear flat shoes and trousers into the office to enable us to do our job, daring the male bosses to object (they didn’t), I’m shocked when I watch something like The Apprentice and see all the women running down the street in tight skirts and 6inch stilettos, and I’m thinking, what did we all do it for?
Having said I wasn’t going to get involved in debate on this forum, I seem to have waded in, so I’ll shut up now.


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## Inka (May 29, 2021)

I don’t think the definitions have changed @Robin The one you’ve explained is the newer one but hasn’t superseded the other. Sex isn’t assigned at birth, it’s observed (and often observed _before_ birth on scans).The word “assigned” is one ‘stolen’ from people with DSDs and I find that offensive for personal reasons.

Gender ideology, which I think is what you’re referring to, is controversial, and also homophobic because it denies same-sex attraction. I find it hugely regressive because it’s based on stereotypes (ie gender as I referred to in my post). Everyone has a Sex, not everyone has a ‘Gender Identity’. References to Sex aren’t “transphobic”. Denying Sex is - because it erases trans people’s journey. Sex is one of the Protected Characteristics in the Equality Act. Gender _Reassignment_ is also a Protected Characteristic (ie trans people). The two things can happily co-exist. Gender _isn’t_ a protected characteristic.

I’ll shut up now too


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## mikeyB (May 30, 2021)

Gender ideology isn’t homophobic, because homosexuals, male or female, are confident in their accepted sexes. And so is society. I’ve yet to meet a homosexual who wanted to change their physical attributes, or gender identity. Homosexuality should not be considered as anything to do with gender reassignment, it’s just a variant on normal sex that’s been going on for millennia, including some animals too.


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## Inka (May 30, 2021)

I am a member of the LGB community. Yes, homosexuality is natural and normal.it’s an attraction to members of the same sex,  Except it’s not any more. Gender Ideology defines it as attraction to the same ‘gender’, and uses the slur “genital fetishists’ to any lesbian or gay male who dares to say they’re attracted to people of the same sex. TikTok has a horrible video of a lesbian sobbing and distraught because she said she wasn’t attracted to the...’attributes’...of male people. She’s not the only one being bullied - by a long chalk. There are also gay men who’ve been verbally attacked in a similar way. Denying the very existence of homo*sex*uality _is_ homophobic.


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## chaoticcar (May 30, 2021)

When I had my  children the midwife said "it's a boy " or " it's a girl " That is all I know 
Carol


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## pm133 (May 30, 2021)

Inka said:


> *Someone much smarter than me might be able to explain it in layman's terms but I only need to read the words from Wiki - "It was in the 1970s that feminist scholars adopted the term gender as way of distinguishing "socially constructed" aspects of male–female differences (gender) from "biologically determined" aspects (sex)." and my eyes glaze over. I won't lie. I have no idea what on earth they are talking about.*
> 
> I very much doubt I’m smarter than you @pm133  but the simple way I was told in relation to being female was that Sex is _why_ we are oppressed, and Gender is one of the _ways in which _we’re oppressed - ie by expectations of how women and girls should behave, what jobs they should do, what they should wear, etc etc. Basically, sex is biological, gender is sociological/stereotypes. Men can be affected by gender too eg ‘not a real man’, ‘boys don’t cry’, etc etc.


Thanks for explaining this Inka and I understand what you've written. That definition of gender runs into problems because it then links back into sex again via the sexual preferences discussion which you mention in a later post.

It's almost as though some people (not you) are deliberately trying to confuse the two but I've always believed that when you have two definitions which cause confusion, the problem isn't with people not being smart enough to distinguish between them. The problem is in the definitions themselves.

I don't like the word gender being used in the context you've described but I certainly understand what you are saying here in terms of oppression of women. I'm a lot less sympathetic about some of my fellow men struggling with the concept of what a "real man" is or the "boys don't cry" philosophy though. To me that sounds like men trying to attach themselves to a problem women have been fighting to overcome.

I'm just not sure that the legitimate problems of sexism which women still face needs wrapped up in all this "woke" nonsense. It just seems to muddy the waters and confuse and annoy people. Then you add in the LGBT angle and the whole thing becomes an impenetrable mess.


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## pm133 (May 30, 2021)

Inka said:


> I am a member of the LGB community. Yes, homosexuality is natural and normal.it’s an attraction to members of the same sex,  Except it’s not any more. Gender Ideology defines it as attraction to the same ‘gender’, and uses the slur “genital fetishists’ to any lesbian or gay male who dares to say they’re attracted to people of the same sex. TikTok has a horrible video of a lesbian sobbing and distraught because she said she wasn’t attracted to the...’attributes’...of male people. She’s not the only one being bullied - by a long chalk. There are also gay men who’ve been verbally attacked in a similar way. Denying the very existence of homo*sex*uality _is_ homophobic.



That girl on Tik Tok probably needs to go and find better friends to spend her life with.
Life is way too short for all this nonsense.


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## pm133 (May 30, 2021)

Robin said:


> So to them, insistence on using the term Sex instead of Gender is transphobic, (I had to sit down and get them to explain it to me, I’m a bit of a dinosaur).





Robin said:


> Going back to your definition, having been one of the first women commercial property managers, (there were 5 of us, and around 40 men) and making the decision between us that we were going to wear flat shoes and trousers into the office to enable us to do our job, daring the male bosses to object (they didn’t), I’m shocked when I watch something like The Apprentice and see all the women running down the street in tight skirts and 6inch stilettos, and I’m thinking, what did we all do it for?
> Having said I wasn’t going to get involved in debate on this forum, I seem to have waded in, so I’ll shut up now.


I think maybe you need to be educating your daughters here because that is a ridiculous interpretation. My two girls come out with this nonsense as well so you are not alone. 
Dinosaurs are not always wrong about things. 

Your comment about the Apprentice and high heels? I'd say the battle for women was to win the right to decide these things for themselves rather than having it dictated. As long as they are choosing to wear stilettos then there's no problem. If I was a woman I would personally refuse to shave, wear makeup, tight clothes or high heels because every one of those is a sign of oppression and I'm genuinely baffled by any woman who actively chooses to do any of that but good luck to them.


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## Robin (May 30, 2021)

pm133 said:


> I think maybe you need to be educating your daughters here because that is a ridiculous interpretation. My two girls come out with this nonsense as well so you are not alone.
> Dinosaurs are not always wrong about things.


I have a son and a daughter. The age they are, I cannot educate them, but we do have robust discussions. I do rely on them to tell me what the latest thinking is, though, whether or not they subscribe to it, because I don’t do social media, which is where these debates tend to happen. And the thinking is fast moving, as is usual when thinking is changing. One section of the public will say, 'we find this discriminatory' and the shift goes in that direction, then another group says, quite fairly, 'but now it’s discriminatory to us' and so it goes on. What you have to rely on is the collective hive mind eventually coming up with sensible conclusions.


pm133 said:


> Your comment about the Apprentice and high heels? I'd say the battle for women was to win the right to decide these things for themselves rather than having it dictated


But they are still having it dictated in some quarters. Some firms do have a dress code requiring female staff to wear heels, and the results of the debate were far from clear cut that this shouldn’t happen in the future.








						Vague guidance won’t stop women being forced to wear heels and makeup | Anna Macey
					

The government’s bland advice on sexist dress codes misses an opportunity to take on this serious problem, says Anna Macey, a barrister practising in employment, discrimination and education law




					www.theguardian.com


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## Thebearcametoo (May 30, 2021)

How people choose to define themselves is up to them but as a member of the LGBTQ+ plus community I would hope that any diabetic person who is trans or gender non conforming and comes here for support will feel accepted and welcome.


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## trophywench (May 30, 2021)

Good God.  I'm as bog standard female as it's possible to be - but if I saw a lady who looked really great, I'd say so.  Do we not pay our close friends compliments any more?  Oooh Hi Jen - you look nice today/ your hair's nice like that/ like your shoes whatever, plus in two marriages regularly said to my husbands 'Have you seen (description of female) over there?' knowing the lady had features/shape/whatever that he liked and vice versa when they've noticed chaps that I like things about.

I'm 5ft 2 and when I needed clients, colleagues and everyone else to take me seriously - ie 100% of the time - yes I did wear high heels and business clothing that made me look attractive which included at times short skirts and at others trousers - but NEVER anything I didn't also feel dead comfy wearing.  I'm also dead comfy in a field full of camping naturists despite being Company Secretary of the (private limited company)  organisation hundreds of them belong to!


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## pm133 (May 30, 2021)

trophywench said:


> I'm 5ft 2 and when I needed clients, colleagues and everyone else to take me seriously - ie 100% of the time - yes I did wear high heels and business clothing that made me look attractive which included at times short skirts and at others trousers - but NEVER anything I didn't also feel dead comfy wearing.  I'm also dead comfy in a field full of camping naturists despite being Company Secretary of the (private limited company)  organisation hundreds of them belong to!


You are of course welcome to wear whatever you want.

I am genuinely intrigued though. 
Why would wearing high heels make people take you more seriously?


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## trophywench (May 31, 2021)

They make me taller, they have to be comfy and as beautiful as the rest of my outfit, they made me feel confident and that latter was always the most important when you're talking to top bods at eg police forces, multi national companies and airports about protecting their legal liabilities for their thousands of UK employees and the products and/or services they provided - they had to trust me to make legal phraseology and meaning easily comprehensible to them personally - when the only thing they might be expert at was making wheels for shedloads of different makes of cars, producing installing and servicing high powered medical equipment eg machinery for robotic surgery or the full range of 'X-ray' and scanning equipment, manufacturing tablets (as in pills as opposed to computers) or being the Company Secretary or maybe the FD of  an airport, transporting animals for zoos and wildlife parks - 5 axis cutting machinery for the food industry, book publishers - owners of race horses - you name it son - I've probably had a client who did that!

So I needed them to talk to me too and explain to me - and preferably show me - how they did whatever they did.   I have all sorts of useless knowledge about various types of industrial machinery and processes or how you can impound a huge passenger jet at an airport successfully, should you happen to need to!

It was necessary for me to convince them asap they weren't wasting their own time and breath explaining stuff properly, so I could respond with risk solutions.

Flat shoes are very difficult to keep on your feet when you have a broader ball of the foot than the heel, also the heels don't wear as well as metal ones.  Far easier to keep shoes with heels on my feet and Oh yes - I could run in them too!


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## Amity Island (Jun 5, 2021)

Inka said:


> I don’t think the definitions have changed @Robin The one you’ve explained is the newer one but hasn’t superseded the other. Sex isn’t assigned at birth, it’s observed (and often observed _before_ birth on scans).The word “assigned” is one ‘stolen’ from people with DSDs and I find that offensive for personal reasons.
> 
> Gender ideology, which I think is what you’re referring to, is controversial, and also homophobic because it denies same-sex attraction. I find it hugely regressive because it’s based on stereotypes (ie gender as I referred to in my post). Everyone has a Sex, not everyone has a ‘Gender Identity’. References to Sex aren’t “transphobic”. Denying Sex is - because it erases trans people’s journey. Sex is one of the Protected Characteristics in the Equality Act. Gender _Reassignment_ is also a Protected Characteristic (ie trans people). The two things can happily co-exist. Gender _isn’t_ a protected characteristic.
> 
> I’ll shut up now too


Inka,

I really enjoyed reading your posts on the topic. You clearly have a good grasp on the topic.


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## Hepato-pancreato (Jun 9, 2021)

Reading from Dr. Google there are 72 different genders but also one says 58,57,52. It would be better if they didn't count and just said there are infinite amounts of genders.


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## Inka (Jun 9, 2021)

Hepato-pancreato said:


> Reading from Dr. Google there are 72 different genders but also one says 58,57,52. It would be better if they didn't count and just said there are infinite amounts of genders.



Or called them personalities


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## Robin (Jun 13, 2021)

Hepato-pancreato said:


> Reading from Dr. Google there are 72 different genders but also one says 58,57,52. It would be better if they didn't count and just said there are infinite amounts of genders.


I’ve just been bemused by a National Trust map for a property we are visitng next week. It says 'Gendered Toilets' Do toilets have a gender? Do they have a personality? How many toilets will there need to be? The mind boggles.


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## rebrascora (Jun 13, 2021)

Maybe it would just be helpful to have urinals labeled as such and cubicled toilets and people can choose which they need to use.


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## Leadinglights (Jun 13, 2021)

rebrascora said:


> Maybe it would just be helpful to have urinals labeled as such and cubicled toilets and people can choose which they need to use.


Unless you are in France then the roadside will do (no offence).
My sister in law on a trip abroad used some roadside less than salubrious toilets and were aware of a snorting noise from behind them then noticed the outflow went straight into a field of pigs who were having a fine time. TMI but we did laugh at the story.


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## pm133 (Jun 13, 2021)

Inka said:


> Or called them personalities



Now THAT is a description which makes more sense for what is being described.


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## Inka (Jun 13, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> Hi Inka,
> 
> I've been thinking about this thread over the week and what you said. I was about to come to exactly the same conclusion! It does appear to me that gender is basically personality types. But I haven't decided why the sudden urge or even point of trying to label people's personalities.
> 
> We all have different traits and there isn't an issue with them. Some of us are artistic, some sporty, some scary and some spicy. Why do we need to provide labels for each one? We are who we are, just be.



I blame Tumblr and the like. The trend of labelling perfectly normal personality traits and preferences started there quite prominently. I mean, so we really need a special ‘identity’ for people who only want physical relationships with people they fancy??

The navel-gazing and agonising was sad to read, but I guess we all looked for our ‘tribes’ when _we_ were young too. The difference is we had popular music and the like to find our tribe - Goths, Punks, etc. We followed bands and fashions associated with them, and that was harmless really. Now I find popular music generally far less raw and distinctive. It’s so much bland, Americanised nothingness. Not much chance to find a ‘tribe’ there then. Even fashion is more homogeneous now.

‘Identity’ labels fill that gap. Moreover, with most of us also having an online profile, those profiles can be curated and perfected by young people, almost as though their avatar is the Real Them. It can be made cool, have special labels attached (preferably a lovely, great string of them), and the coolest labels have now become huge, nebulous clouds that anyone can fit into. That wouldn’t really matter if it was all a bit of harmless fun, but some of the ideology is far from benign.


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## Inka (Jun 13, 2021)

rebrascora said:


> Maybe it would just be helpful to have urinals labeled as such and cubicled toilets and people can choose which they need to use.



Some people would be ok with Unisex toilets, but others wouldn’t. The rate of sexual assaults in increased in unisex toilets. Some people don’t want mixed sex toilets for religious reasons, some don’t want them for personal reasons eg they’ve been victims of assault, and some simply don’t want them because of preference. Single sex toilets (particularly for women) are for safety, but also for privacy and dignity. Women fought hard for their toilets - Google the Urinary Leash 

Far better IMO is to have Single Sex toilets as now, and then a third unisex space for use by anyone who wishes.


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