# Libre Sensors - Try again in 10 minutes?



## Simon Workman

I didn't want to start a new thread as its Libre sensor related so thought I'd ask on here. Do any of you guys get intermittent problems with your libre sensor actually working. Its been happening to me more lately. I'll test and it takes the reading. Then I go to test 10 mins later and it says error and can't take a reading. I leave it a few minutes and hey ho it works again. Its quite frustrating.

Also where do you apply your sensors? I don't have much loose flesh but apply mine about half way up on my upper arm between my elbow and shoulder joint round towards the back side of my arm. Not sure if this is the best place but it is the most fleshy part of my arm.


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## Kaylz

@Simon Workman no I cant say I've had that specific problem but on a few occasions I have attempted to scan and had an error message telling me to try again in 10 minutes and its always started reading again

Yes that's the correct place to be applying the sensor, here are 2 of mine (although they seem to be in a relatively similar position given the pictures are 2 years apart! lol) as you can see I don't have much flabby flesh either! haha xx


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## everydayupsanddowns

Simon Workman said:


> I didn't want to start a new thread as its Libre sensor related so thought I'd ask on here. Do any of you guys get intermittent problems with your libre sensor actually working. Its been happening to me more lately. I'll test and it takes the reading. Then I go to test 10 mins later and it says error and can't take a reading. I leave it a few minutes and hey ho it works again. Its quite frustrating.
> 
> Also where do you apply your sensors? I don't have much loose flesh but apply mine about half way up on my upper arm between my elbow and shoulder joint round towards the back side of my arm. Not sure if this is the best place but it is the most fleshy part of my arm.



I’ve  had the ‘10 minute’ message when my BGs have been moving erratically for some time. I believe it’s triggered by the sensor signal exceeding various parameters and the sensor thinking “Hmmmm ... this might not be right” so it takes a 10 min timeout to see if the signal becomes more apparently reliable. 

The position you describe is the only officially sanctioned location. People do try other areas, but Abbott’s research shows that anywhere other than the back of the arm gives less reliable information. YDMV, of course.


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## PhoebeC

I have been getting this error for about half an hour, I wait the 10 minutes and it still doesn’t work


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## JohnWhi

I have had this happen during the night. I may have been lying on the sensor. Back to normal when I tried next morning. History was complete and didn't show anything significant. On the negative side, if my memory is correct, it may be the first indication of a failing sensor. If so, it is always worth asking for a replacement (they send an envelope to return the faulty one).


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## mikeyB

I got the message last week. No problem later, and the sensor is still working just fine. As Mike says, it may happen if your BG level is changing quickly, or even if there is a sudden change in ambient temperature. It certainly doesn’t indicate a failing sensor, because I’ve had the same message on occasion for the past three years, and I’ve not had a sensor fail. So it looks like some sensors get grumpy for a while. Don’t we all?

For sure, I got more error messages from blood testing than the Libre.


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## MrDaibetes

When I was on libre I would get this if my sugars were moving to fast. I know it can be frustrating but as long as it works after the 10 mins you should be fine.


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## SB2015

I had this intermittently but it was usually when my levels were changing rapidly.  It then worked after 10 min.


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## everydayupsanddowns

PhoebeC said:


> I have been getting this error for about half an hour, I wait the 10 minutes and it still doesn’t work



I think if you get it repeatedly the sensor may be starting to struggle, perhaps it is coming loose, or maybe it didn’t insert perfectly and the sensor glucose signal is becoming erratic.

Hope you managed to get it started again, but if not I’d call Abbott on Monday.


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## PhoebeC

I couldn’t get it to work after 2 hours, it said I needed to put on a new sensor.
They are sending me a replacement in the post and asked me to send this one back.
The needle bit didn’t look how the others have when I’ve taken them off in the past so I think it was just a faulty one x


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## everydayupsanddowns

PhoebeC said:


> I couldn’t get it to work after 2 hours, it said I needed to put on a new sensor.
> They are sending me a replacement in the post and asked me to send this one back.
> The needle bit didn’t look how the others have when I’ve taken them off in the past so I think it was just a faulty one x



Good to know you are getting a replacement Phoebe


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## nonethewiser

Only use app except when starting sensor, cant ever recall getting this 10 min message, only error message is scan error when not connecting with sensor properly, even then you can re scan straight away.


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## Dave Ingrey

Simon Workman said:


> I didn't want to start a new thread as its Libre sensor related so thought I'd ask on here. Do any of you guys get intermittent problems with your libre sensor actually working. Its been happening to me more lately. I'll test and it takes the reading. Then I go to test 10 mins later and it says error and can't take a reading. I leave it a few minutes and hey ho it works again. Its quite frustrating.
> 
> Also where do you apply your sensors? I don't have much loose flesh but apply mine about half way up on my upper arm between my elbow and shoulder joint round towards the back side of my arm. Not sure if this is the best place but it is the most fleshy part of my arm.


Hi Simon are you still having problems? Been on FSL since the end of November and should have used, by rights, 4 sensors actually now had 7 with 3 failures. It displays "try again in 10 minutes" and *error 363* in the log. Sometimes starts again soon after but more often than not stops working for a few hours. 
Abbotts have replaced them straight away without question but it's obviously frustrating and a bit of a pain.


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## everydayupsanddowns

I only very very rarely get the ‘try again in 10 minutes’ message, and then most often when my BG is rapidly changing direction and the sensor gets a bit freaked out and wants to check itself. I’ve been using Libre off and on since 2014, and used them pretty regularly for a couple of years.

Frustrating for you to have had so many go wonky and that didn't make the distance.  

Mine always run for the full 14 days too.


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## danielmg

I've posted on a different thread about the same issue a while ago with Libre 1 sensors. I've noticed with my most recent sensor that I was receiving lower than normal (or constantly low) readings, yet no error codes. When I removed the sensor the probe was bent, very similar to the previous sensor which did have these error codes. 

I'm not sure if it may be caused by applying pressure to the sensor whilst sleeping, or initially caused when applying sensor for the first time. Has anyone had similar experiences to this? 

I can echo @Dave Ingrey that Abbott is very good at replacing the damaged sensor, which they will then investigate once returned in the pre-paid biohazard bag/envelope provided with the replacement.


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## Dave Ingrey

everydayupsanddowns said:


> I only very very rarely get the ‘try again in 10 minutes’ message, and then most often when my BG is rapidly changing direction and the sensor gets a bit freaked out and wants to check itself. I’ve been using Libre off and on since 2014, and used them pretty regularly for a couple of years.
> 
> Frustrating for you to have had so many go wonky and that didn't make the distance.
> 
> Mine always run for the full 14 days too.


Mmm thanks for the reply, since I posted yesterday the one I fitted Friday night has started playing up again, "try again 10 minutes" just before I went to bed, working when I woke up, packed up at lunch today for an hour, working as I type,  bit hit and miss to the say the least. Still using the type 1sensors at present as according to my diabetic nurse the new type 2 order code are not on their procurement system yet.
Also wondered if it was affected by my drugs regime. Been on targeted oncology medication since November as well as beta blockers and blood thinners. May be struggling to get an accurate reading with that lot.
Will persevere!


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## Dave Ingrey

danielmg said:


> I've posted on a different thread about the same issue a while ago with Libre 1 sensors. I've noticed with my most recent sensor that I was receiving lower than normal (or constantly low) readings, yet no error codes. When I removed the sensor the probe was bent, very similar to the previous sensor which did have these error codes.
> 
> I'm not sure if it may be caused by applying pressure to the sensor whilst sleeping, or initially caused when applying sensor for the first time. Has anyone had similar experiences to this?
> 
> I can echo @Dave Ingrey that Abbott is very good at replacing the damaged sensor, which they will then investigate once returned in the pre-paid biohazard bag/envelope provided with the replacement.


Thanks Daniel did wonder if it was my application of the sensor but been pretty careful of late, following the instructions to the letter. 
Not overweight so also wondered if there was enough flesh on my upper arm or if the probe was being moved internally but it fails pretty much any time during the day according to the graph, indicating loss of data 2 or 3 times since yesterday throughout a 24 hour period. 
Could well be my drugs regime, as I'm also on targeted oncology drugs as well as beta blockers and blood thinners.
Will carry on as beats the finger pricking!


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## helli

I apply my sensor on my upper arm, quite high up, definitely not half way between elbow and shoulder. It is on the back of my arm heading underneath.
Being a climber ,when there's no pandemic (and a baker who needs by hand when there is a pandemic), I have no flab and a fair amount of muscle but have no problems finding a site.
The hardest thing for me is finding an area the size of the sensor which is flat.
Rarely use the official app. XDrip has not reported problems reading the sensor.
I have had issues where the reading s go haywire and I check with the LibreLink app to find the sensor is reporting a fault and requesting I change it. Abbott have always replaced for free.

(I am incredibly privileged to get Libre on prescription. I never want to abuse this privilege so always report faulty sensors. NHS has enough financial problems without having to fund faulty sensors.)


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## Dave Ingrey

Thanks Helli yep sensor is in pretty much the same position. Also lucky enough to get them on prescription so will persevere!


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## Fagor

My second sensor gave the sensor error (repeat in10 mins) on first scan, then repeated errors every day. Contacted Abbott after a few days and they sent a new sensor. Not used many sensors, but do get the odd error. Request for a replacement would depend on how long used sensor, when first error occurred and frequency. I try to follow application guide to the best I can.
Only had one error when using right arm, I do tend to lean on left arm so might be stressing sensor.
I think the replaced sensor had gaps in the graphs even though no sensor errors.


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## Matchless

Hi simon after using libre 1 for about 4 years  i cant remember having the error ,I can recommend you try putting the libre on your chest as where i have been for over a year now and get much better stable readings which i verify now and then with librelink app when i think it may be wrong but is nearly allways correct within .56 mmol. last month i used the back of my arm for a change and could not wait to get back to my chest the tape was making my arm saw and readings wear erratic ,when on my chest i do not use tape as it stays on without even with my Miao Miao transmitter attached linked to xdrip+ I hope this may of been some help for you good luck;


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## everydayupsanddowns

I am assuming you are doing all the regular troubleshooting things?

Like not overtaping the sensor... applying to the back of the upper arm... keeping well hydrated... ?


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## danielmg

helli said:


> I apply my sensor on my upper arm, quite high up, definitely not half way between elbow and shoulder. It is on the back of my arm heading underneath.
> Being a climber ,when there's no pandemic (and a baker who needs by hand when there is a pandemic), I have no flab and a fair amount of muscle but have no problems finding a site.
> The hardest thing for me is finding an area the size of the sensor which is flat.
> Rarely use the official app. XDrip has not reported problems reading the sensor.
> I have had issues where the reading s go haywire and I check with the LibreLink app to find the sensor is reporting a fault and requesting I change it. Abbott have always replaced for free.
> 
> (I am incredibly privileged to get Libre on prescription. I never want to abuse this privilege so always report faulty sensors. NHS has enough financial problems without having to fund faulty sensors.)


When you say upper arm @helli, is that still posterior, close to the shoulder (anatomically speaking)? I think I could be applying too much pressure onto the sensor whilst sleeping, causing the gradual bending of the probe. It would be good to find a slightly different site which could still provide accurate results. 

I read @Paulbreen applies/applied the libre sensor closer to the pectoral/chest area. Apologies if this isn't accurate Paul.


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## helli

danielmg said:


> When you say upper arm @helli, is that still posterior, close to the shoulder (anatomically speaking)? I think I could be applying too much pressure onto the sensor whilst sleeping, causing the gradual bending of the probe. It would be good to find a slightly different site which could still provide accurate results.


I apply my sensor posterior-ish. Definitely, more towards my armpit than shoulder blade but not _in_ my arm pit.
It is very rare for me to lie on it and I have never hit it on a door jamb.


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## trophywench

Mine is more 'under' my arm than on the side of it so even when sleeping on that side it will have to get through my left boob before it comes anywhere near my ribcage to squish it.  My boobs are in proportion to the rest of me and neither huge nor weighty.


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## Annemarie

I’m still getting ‘scan again in 10 minutes’ frequently. It’s only happened since they updated the app. I usually repeat it immediately and it works, I think I’d forgive Abbott’s for anything as it’s so wonderful having a Libre


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## nonethewiser

Oddly enough been getting few of these messages lately, seems to be random as can go few days without seeing one then get few in one day, thinking about it could be phone related as only use app.


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## Paulbreen

danielmg said:


> When you say upper arm @helli, is that still posterior, close to the shoulder (anatomically speaking)? I think I could be applying too much pressure onto the sensor whilst sleeping, causing the gradual bending of the probe. It would be good to find a slightly different site which could still provide accurate results.
> 
> I read @Paulbreen applies/applied the libre sensor closer to the pectoral/chest area. Apologies if this isn't accurate Paul.


You are correct, I found it was the safest place to avoid it coming off and unless you sleep on your tummy it’s unlikely to have any pressure applied to it. I do the same with my guardian3 sensor now and it’s always pretty close to my finger pricking tests +/- 0.5 which are done 2-3 times a day so I’m pretty happy using that area


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## Dave Ingrey

Many thanks, yes similar experience as you have had. Still playing up today after behaving since about 10pm last night. Will email Abbotts again.


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## danielmg

Paulbreen said:


> You are correct, I found it was the safest place to avoid it coming off and unless you sleep on your tummy it’s unlikely to have any pressure applied to it. I do the same with my guardian3 sensor now and it’s always pretty close to my finger pricking tests +/- 0.5 which are done 2-3 times a day so I’m pretty happy using that area


Thank you Paul. I think I'll try somewhere to this for my next sensor. I've just tried the sensor on my right arm for the first time to give my left arm a rest.


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## Paulbreen

danielmg said:


> Thank you Paul. I think I'll try somewhere to this for my next sensor. I've just tried the sensor on my right arm for the first time to give my left arm a rest.


Other place i liked to use is on the side of my chest about 3 inches down from my armpit and under my arm, that was a great place, no knocking it off, great in the shower and with the chest as well it gives you 4 sites with plenty of area so each one has 6 weeks to recover if you rotate them. accuracy was always spot on as well.


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## helli

Paulbreen said:


> Other place i liked to use is on the side of my chest about 3 inches down from my armpit and under my arm, that was a great place, no knocking it off, great in the shower and with the chest as well it gives you 4 sites with plenty of area so each one has 6 weeks to recover if you rotate them. accuracy was always spot on as well.


I know of someone who put their Libre on their chest  - more central than you suggest. 
Unfortunately (or not), I have absolutely no flab on my chest or under my arm pits so would avoid placing my Libre there.


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## danielmg

helli said:


> I know of someone who put their Libre on their chest  - more central than you suggest.
> Unfortunately (or not), I have absolutely no flab on my chest or under my arm pits so would avoid placing my Libre there.


I think I must be in a similar boat. If people don't mind me saying, I have a low body fat % (and lost a fair amount of weight for me recently), and this may be why the sensors are more prone to damage after application. 

The chest area (close to shoulder/top of arm) will likely be tried next. As per @rebrascora brilliant recommendation, I have been applying strips of micropore tape to prevent any damage whilst in the shower or knocking on door frames.


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## Paulbreen

helli said:


> I know of someone who put their Libre on their chest  - more central than you suggest.
> Unfortunately (or not), I have absolutely no flab on my chest or under my arm pits so would avoid placing my Libre there.


Well I dont have too much myself at 182CM and 75KG I wouldn't be the fattest lol but there is just enough to get the needle in for the 5 seconds it needs, once you pull off the applicator the wick is pretty flexible as I remember so it shouldn't annoy you but I do see what you mean if your a skinny mini


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## Ref

I've had a lot of this lately.  I think they've made the needle longer and sometimes it hits blood.  A couple recently have just stopped working after a 1 day and when I take it off I can see lots of red.


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## Sugarmouse

Matchless said:


> Hi simon after using libre 1 for about 4 years  i cant remember having the error ,I can recommend you try putting the libre on your chest as where i have been for over a year now and get much better stable readings which i verify now and then with librelink app when i think it may be wrong but is nearly allways correct within .56 mmol. last month i used the back of my arm for a change and could not wait to get back to my chest the tape was making my arm saw and readings wear erratic ,when on my chest i do not use tape as it stays on without even with my Miao Miao transmitter attached linked to xdrip+ I hope this may of been some help for you good luck;


Hadn’t realised you could place the sensor elsewhere on your body. I find placing the sensor on the fleshy area of my arm, it can catch on door frames or when pulling off tops! Am now being much more careful. Have been using Freestyle Libre since June 2020. Have had to ask Abbott for 6 replacement sensors and had to get a new reader from my local hospital at the start. I find my readings on the sensor are lower than the readings on my glucose meter.


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## grovesy

Sugarmouse said:


> Hadn’t realised you could place the sensor elsewhere on your body. I find placing the sensor on the fleshy area of my arm, it can catch on door frames or when pulling off tops! Am now being much more careful. Have been using Freestyle Libre since June 2020. Have had to ask Abbott for 6 replacement sensors and had to get a new reader from my local hospital at the start. I find my readings on the sensor are lower than the readings on my glucose meter.


People do but Abbott don't recommend,  so it you did place it elsewhere and have problems, they may not replace,


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## nonethewiser

Sugarmouse said:


> Hadn’t realised you could place the sensor elsewhere on your body. I



Not meant to. Had current sensor on stomach for last 9 days, readings fine compared to bg levels, could only really use right arm as left was hit & miss so looked for alternative sites.


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## helli

Out of the blue I seemed to have hit a run of Bad-uns. 
Over the last couple of years I have had the occasional sensor that has stopped working or fallen off because I didn't put it on a flat part of my arm (the plaster remained attached but the sensor peeled of the plaster). 
Last week, I had a sensor fail. Abbott were as forgiving as ever and sent out a new one. 
Yesterday, my MiaoMiao stopped working. I thought it was the battery so tried scanning with LibreLink and received the "Wait 10 minutes" message. This went on for 90 minutes and then I got a "Sensor failed" message. 
I don't know if the two fault sensors were from the same batch but they were picked up form the pharmacy at the same time. 

Abbott continue to be great with regard to replacing them but would be even better if they didn't fail. 
I only have experience of Libre and Dexcom G4 (many years ago). Is Libre more troublesome than other CGMs?


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## sololite

I have had libre for two years and only encountered this message twice in last month. Both times I had been exercising and had seen a large (for me) drop in BS from around 10 down to 4 ish. My gut feel is that something changed in the sensor/phone app recently as I would have seen the message many times given my exercise regime. Hope this helps.


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## grovesy

I have had the message a couple of times since Friday, but I have just started using the Libre 2. Both occasions not long after having a bath.


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## Annemarie

Has anyone else been getting a discrepancy between what the log records and what the graph shows on their Libre 1? Mine frequently does it for example lunchtime today the graph showed c.8.5 yet it recorded 10.2


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## grovesy

I have noticed a difference in the view in the log immediately after taking the reading. To what it looks like if you go into last 24 hours.


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## Robin

Annemarie said:


> Has anyone else been getting a discrepancy between what the log records and what the graph shows on their Libre 1? Mine frequently does it for example lunchtime today the graph showed c.8.5 yet it recorded 10.2





grovesy said:


> I have noticed a difference in the view in the log immediately after taking the reading. To what it looks like if you go into last 24 hours.


So have I. I think it’s to do with the algorithm that’s meant to narrow the gap between the interstitial reading which is 15 minutes behind a blood reading. It tries to work out where it thinks you’ll be in say ten minutes, but sometimes it’s wrong for the spot readings, but the continuous readings carry on in the background and give a truer reflection.


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## everydayupsanddowns

Robin said:


> So have I. I think it’s to do with the algorithm that’s meant to narrow the gap between the interstitial reading which is 15 minutes behind a blood reading. It tries to work out where it thinks you’ll be in say ten minutes, but sometimes it’s wrong for the spot readings, but the continuous readings carry on in the background and give a truer reflection.


 I’m pretty sure it’s exactly that. I only seem to get those outliers where my BG has been moving and/or changing direction quite rapidly.


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## AnnieM

Simon Workman said:


> I didn't want to start a new thread as its Libre sensor related so thought I'd ask on here. Do any of you guys get intermittent problems with your libre sensor actually working. Its been happening to me more lately. I'll test and it takes the reading. Then I go to test 10 mins later and it says error and can't take a reading. I leave it a few minutes and hey ho it works again. Its quite frustrating.
> 
> Also where do you apply your sensors? I don't have much loose flesh but apply mine about half way up on my upper arm between my elbow and shoulder joint round towards the back side of my arm. Not sure if this is the best place but it is the most fleshy part of my arm.


Just read this! My Libre has started doing this too! It also stops working when I have been on a walk and it’s very cold! I stick mine in a similar place to you!


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## nonethewiser

AnnieM said:


> Just read this! My Libre has started doing this too! It also stops working when I have been on a walk and it’s very col



Never had that issue, then use phone not reader.  Before libre bg meter was notorious for not working in cold weather, use to stick it under arm to warm up.


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## Matchless

The only time my libre 2 goes a bit wild is when i have a shower which is ether the water or the hot temperature suddenly shuts up but ony last for  about 15-20 mins i just ignore it


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## AnnieM

nonethewiser said:


> Never had that issue, then use phone not reader.  Before libre bg meter was notorious for not working in cold weather, use to stick it under arm to warm up.


Think I need to update my phone so I can use it instead of the reader!!


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## grovesy

I started my second Libre 2 last night started with reader and phone no problem a little while later I tried to scan and got the wait 10 mins message on both this lasted for another 20 mins before would scan.


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## everydayupsanddowns

Sorry to hear that @grovesy.

Hope the new sensor settles down for you. I’ve not had many ‘10 minutes’ on either of the Libre2s I have worn, and only where my BG rapidly changed direction and the sensor got a bit freaked out!


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## grovesy

everydayupsanddowns said:


> Sorry to hear that @grovesy.
> 
> Hope the new sensor settles down for you. I’ve not had many ‘10 minutes’ on either of the Libre2s I have worn, and only where my BG rapidly changed direction and the sensor got a bit freaked out!


It did it happened with both I have had so far  and within the first hour of starting, the new sensor. This second one is not where I would have normally placed. I would have 1) put on my other arm, but had vaccine the day before and arm tender, 2) I placed near the previous one but just far enough away not to get confused. I had applied the first one 24 hours before activation and 12 hours for the second.


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## Totalwar

I getting every 10 mins try again first sensor I treid.phoned CS phone back in two hours not good.How about them phoning you back as there sylem down.


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## helli

Anecdotally (not tried it myself), Libre 2 seems to need more "bedding in" time than Libre 1. 
I usually apply my next Libre 1 24 to 48 hours before activation but know this is longer than most. 
I have heard Libre 2 needs at least 24 hours.


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## Totalwar

Now coming up not working replace the sensor and they still having technical issues with the IT system.Well put a second one on works fine.phoned this morning got a replacement being sent.


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## danielmg

I had to change another Libre 1 sensor after only 5 days due to constant abnormally low results. I'm genuinely not sure how this has happened, but again when I removed the sensor in question, the 'needle' was bent at a 90-degree angle. I can't be sure if this is a defective sensor or due to other reasons such as pressure applied to the arm whilst sleeping. 

Even when sensors are working, I can have shooting pains from the needle depending on certain positions I move my arm to. Has anyone had similar experiences to this as well? I'm not sure whether to contact Abbott again as well about this for a possible sensor replacement.


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## Robin

danielmg said:


> I had to change another Libre 1 sensor after only 5 days due to constant abnormally low results. I'm genuinely not sure how this has happened, but again when I removed the sensor in question, the 'needle' was bent at a 90-degree angle. I can't be sure if this is a defective sensor or due to other reasons such as pressure applied to the arm whilst sleeping.
> 
> Even when sensors are working, I can have shooting pains from the needle depending on certain positions I move my arm to. Has anyone had similar experiences to this as well? I'm not sure whether to contact Abbott again as well about this for a possible sensor replacement.


I had one that read consistently low, which Abbott replaced, and their comment was that 'the needle probably got kinked on entry'so its obviously a thing they are aware of. Ive never had shooting pains from my sensor but occasionally I'll feel the filament digging in a bit if I move a certain way, especially in the first couple of days.


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## danielmg

Robin said:


> I had one that read consistently low, which Abbott replaced, and their comment was that 'the needle probably got kinked on entry'so its obviously a thing they are aware of. Ive never had shooting pains from my sensor but occasionally I'll feel the filament digging in a bit if I move a certain way, especially in the first couple of days.


I've tried a number of slightly different positions on my arm, but all seem to be much of a muchness. I think the way you've described it (about the filament digging in) is probably more accurate actually. Certain movements will cause sharper pains than others. I still need to try placing the senor in more of the anterior chest area rather than the back/side of my arm to see if this has any difference in accuracy or longevity. 

Would it still be worth reporting this issue to Abbott and try to get a replacement sensor @Robin? I'm concerned if this keeps happening then I may be without a sensor for an extended time, as I can only order 2 on my prescription each month.


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## Annemarie

Definitely ring Abbots and they will replace it. I had to ring last week as mine came unstuck, they asked if I wanted a Libre 1 or 2 so I said 2 as my future prescriptions are for 2s. I have had increasing issues with Libre 1 since they changed the App. Good luck


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## Annemarie

@danielmg regarding positioning of the sensors I apply mine to my ‘bingo wings’ they are then slightly out of the way and it’s pain/discomfort free applying them


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## Robin

danielmg said:


> I've tried a number of slightly different positions on my arm, but all seem to be much of a muchness. I think the way you've described it (about the filament digging in) is probably more accurate actually. Certain movements will cause sharper pains than others. I still need to try placing the senor in more of the anterior chest area rather than the back/side of my arm to see if this has any difference in accuracy or longevity.
> 
> Would it still be worth reporting this issue to Abbott and try to get a replacement sensor @Robin? I'm concerned if this keeps happening then I may be without a sensor for an extended time, as I can only order 2 on my prescription each month.


Always worth ringing Abbott to talk it through, I think. They may be able to shed some light on a recurring problem by talking through technique, amount of muscle/fat or not on your arms etc, then if they feel it’s nothing you’ve done, they will probably offer you a replacement.


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## Brava210

Simon Workman said:


> I didn't want to start a new thread as its Libre sensor related so thought I'd ask on here. Do any of you guys get intermittent problems with your libre sensor actually working. Its been happening to me more lately. I'll test and it takes the reading. Then I go to test 10 mins later and it says error and can't take a reading. I leave it a few minutes and hey ho it works again. Its quite frustrating.
> 
> Also where do you apply your sensors? I don't have much loose flesh but apply mine about half way up on my upper arm between my elbow and shoulder joint round towards the back side of my arm. Not sure if this is the best place but it is the most fleshy part of my arm.


I get that error a lot too, especially carter a shower etc.


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## Paulbreen

danielmg said:


> I had to change another Libre 1 sensor after only 5 days due to constant abnormally low results. I'm genuinely not sure how this has happened, but again when I removed the sensor in question, the 'needle' was bent at a 90-degree angle. I can't be sure if this is a defective sensor or due to other reasons such as pressure applied to the arm whilst sleeping.
> 
> Even when sensors are working, I can have shooting pains from the needle depending on certain positions I move my arm to. Has anyone had similar experiences to this as well? I'm not sure whether to contact Abbott again as well about this for a possible sensor replacement.


Hi Dan, I gave up on my arm, now I place the sensor on the side of my chest under my arm and I have no issues, I know it’s not an approved place but might be worth a try especially if you are testing to compare results


----------



## Brava210

I was told by Diabetes nurse to put the sensor in stomach, as when it's in your arm and you lie on it, it causes incorrect reading.
This is due to the interstitial fluid flow bing slowed down.....or something


----------



## Dave Ingrey

Paulbreen said:


> Hi Dan, I gave up on my arm, now I place the sensor on the side of my chest under my arm and I have no issues, I know it’s not an approved place but might be worth a try especially if you are testing to compare results


Touch wood since my original post at the beginning of February I have had no issues.Must have been a bad batch 2 not working for long periods and one reading low in the hypo range. Still using the recommended position. Do still get occasional breaks in recordings with no alarms. Used to get pain in the vicinity of the sensor and had a reaction with the first one but been fine since.


----------



## danielmg

Paulbreen said:


> Hi Dan, I gave up on my arm, now I place the sensor on the side of my chest under my arm and I have no issues, I know it’s not an approved place but might be worth a try especially if you are testing to compare results


Thank you Paul. I should really try this location for my next sensor. I think I said that last time, but the same issues keep occurring on 'recommended' sites.


----------



## danielmg

Dave Ingrey said:


> Touch wood since my original post at the beginning of February I have had no issues.Must have been a bad batch 2 not working for long periods and one reading low in the hypo range. Still using the recommended position. Do still get occasional breaks in recordings with no alarms. Used to get pain in the vicinity of the sensor and had a reaction with the first one but been fine since.


Good to hear Dave.


----------



## danielmg

Brava210 said:


> I was told by Diabetes nurse to put the sensor in stomach, as when it's in your arm and you lie on it, it causes incorrect reading.
> This is due to the interstitial fluid flow bing slowed down.....or something


This is interesting. I do have times during sleep when my readings fall low then return to 'normal' a couple of times. This may possibly be due to the pressure applied to my arm when sleeping on that side.


----------



## danielmg

Robin said:


> Always worth ringing Abbott to talk it through, I think. They may be able to shed some light on a recurring problem by talking through technique, amount of muscle/fat or not on your arms etc, then if they feel it’s nothing you’ve done, they will probably offer you a replacement


Thank you @Robin. I'll try and contact Abbott today.


----------



## danielmg

Annemarie said:


> Definitely ring Abbots and they will replace it. I had to ring last week as mine came unstuck, they asked if I wanted a Libre 1 or 2 so I said 2 as my future prescriptions are for 2s. I have had increasing issues with Libre 1 since they changed the App. Good luck


Thank you @Annemarie. I'll let you know how I get on with Abbott and testing out the sensor at a different site.


----------



## Matchless

I have been putting them on my chest for about 18 months now and they stay on  without any extra tape for the whole 14 days and well out of the way of door  frames  .


----------



## trophywench

@Annemarie - do you not realise no MAN ever acknowledges the fact that he may have either Bingo Wings or Midriff Bulge?


----------



## Matchless

trophywench said:


> @Annemarie - do you not realise no MAN ever acknowledges the fact that he may have either Bingo Wings or Midriff Bulge?


Sorry if i may seem dim but what are bingo wings ?


----------



## Robin

Matchless said:


> Sorry if i may seem dim but what are bingo wings ?


The bits of flab that appear on the backs of your arms where your triceps used to be, when you get to a certain age. As seen on middle aged women who go to Bingo, I think.


----------



## helli

I find hand kneading bread every week keeps my arms bingo wing free. 

The climbing may also help when there's no pandemic keeping me off the walls.


----------



## nonethewiser

Matchless said:


> I have been putting them on my chest for about 18 months now and they stay on  without any extra tape for the whole 14 days and well out of the way of door  frames  .



Current one on chest, before that it was stomach then chest before that.  Sensor works fine on both, can only use right arm as left get unreliable readings.  Since switching to libre 2 not getting as many error messages, find it is more in line with bg levels.


----------



## danielmg

I've just received my Libre 2 sensor prescription today, so I'm going to switch over now from Libre 1. I've had to change sensors twice now since the weekend due to errors or being uncomfortable to wear. Both were applied to the left or right arm, but I'm going to apply a new sensor to the chest and see how this goes.

Update: Applied Libre 2 sensor to the chest. Seemed to apply without any issues, however, i've had 2 sensor error messages in the first 30mins of use. I don't believe I did anything wrong when applying or caused any damage to the sensor. Has anyone had similar experiences with Libre 2, either applied to the chest area, arm, or a different site?


----------



## Paulbreen

danielmg said:


> I've just received my Libre 2 sensor prescription today, so I'm going to switch over now from Libre 1. I've had to change sensors twice now since the weekend due to errors or being uncomfortable to wear. Both were applied to the left or right arm, but I'm going to apply a new sensor to the chest and see how this goes.
> 
> Update: Applied Libre 2 sensor to the chest. Seemed to apply without any issues, however, i've had 2 sensor error messages in the first 30mins of use. I don't believe I did anything wrong when applying or caused any damage to the sensor. Has anyone had similar experiences with Libre 2, either applied to the chest area, arm, or a different site?



Hi Dan I forgot I was going to send you a pic, this is my favourite spot and loads of room son both sides, best of luck with the libre2’s


----------



## Bexlee

danielmg said:


> I've just received my Libre 2 sensor prescription today, so I'm going to switch over now from Libre 1. I've had to change sensors twice now since the weekend due to errors or being uncomfortable to wear. Both were applied to the left or right arm, but I'm going to apply a new sensor to the chest and see how this goes.
> 
> Update: Applied Libre 2 sensor to the chest. Seemed to apply without any issues, however, i've had 2 sensor error messages in the first 30mins of use. I don't believe I did anything wrong when applying or caused any damage to the sensor. Has anyone had similar experiences with Libre 2, either applied to the chest area, arm, or a different site?


Not placed on chest - not sure the girls can place there easily! but I have had 2 faulty sensors in the last week. Abbott are replacing both and they didn’t want either back - usually a sign there’s a lot or batch that are a little out.
What’s the error message you’re getting ? Could be the filament bent as inserted or levels maybe changing fat or just the 24-48 hours sometime settling in period.
 I kept getting glucose unavailable try in 10 min error. Which if look you look in settings and the system status it’s E3373P 

maybe worth reporting seems a faff bit talking to the technicians / call baskets they do seem interested and want to sort issues.


----------



## helli

I have been using a Libre 2 on my arm for the last 10 days with no problems. No scan again In 10 minutes message and no signs of falling off.
As with Libre 1, I applied it 2 days before activating.
Unlike Libre 1, it took an extra day to settle but since the third day, it has been more accurate.


----------



## mikeyB

I’ve been finding with the Libre2 that the odd messages start to get more frequent- or completely insane - when the reader is getting low on battery. That occurs more frequently with Libre 2 if you’ve got alarms switched on, at least on the reader. “ Sensor not found” seems to be a common one. “Sensor out of range” is another, with the reader in the top pocket of my shirt on the same side as the sensor.

I find that the adhesive lasts just over 14 days, then gets a bit unreliable, so I never apply the sensor early. I’ve never noticed any particular unreliability after waiting the hour after application.


----------



## Matchless

That is interesting i find the sensor well stuck on after more then 15 days also with MM 2 attached .


----------



## danielmg

Bexlee said:


> Abbott are replacing both and they didn’t want either back - usually a sign there’s a lot or batch that are a little out.


I will likely contact Abbott If I have any further issues with this sensor.


Bexlee said:


> What’s the error message you’re getting ? Could be the filament bent as inserted or levels maybe changing fat or just the 24-48 hours sometime settling in period.


Hopefully, this is just a settling-in period after the initial calibration. Normally when this error is persistent the daily graph contains several large gaps in readings or fails to record anything from the previous 8hrs.


Bexlee said:


> I kept getting glucose unavailable try in 10 min error. Which if look you look in settings and the system status it’s E3373P


Yes, this is the same error message. I've been wearing the sensor for about 24hrs now and must have had half a dozen of the E,3373,P error.  That being said, it didn't occur whilst at work, and only once this evening.


----------



## danielmg

Paulbreen said:


> Hi Dan I forgot I was going to send you a pic, this is my favourite spot and loads of room son both sides, best of luck with the libre2’s


Thank you Paul. I wasn't sure when I had to replace my sensor y'day, so it is currently about centre of the pectoral area. Certainly more comfortable than the recommended site on the arm, and I've got waterproof tape to cover to avoid errors caused by water damage.


----------



## Paulbreen

danielmg said:


> Thank you Paul. I wasn't sure when I had to replace my sensor y'day, so it is currently about centre of the pectoral area.


I do it there too, keep us posted how you get on Dan


----------



## danielmg

Update: Libre 2 sensor on chest seems to be going ok. I've had 1 further read error since yesterday, although I think the readings seem higher than those when the sensor was on the arm, in comparison with BGs. I'm a little concerned as well about damaging the sensor whilst in the shower. I do have micropore tape to cover around the sensor, but possibly a different option may be better suited for this site?


----------



## Annemarie

@trophywench I guess you’re right about men’s attitude to the wings. 
@danielmg I had a strange situation after applying my first Libre2 it bleeped about every 30 minutes for most of the night then stopped the next morning, no problems since and it’s really useful having the extra reminder. My BS is high at the moment as I’m on strong pain killers


----------



## trophywench

I don't take the reader to bed with me - learned that lesson years ago with BG meters which beep at you after they record a high BG until you test and it is no longer high enough to activate the reminders.  However as long as a Type 1 whacks in some insulin as soon as they realise their BG is 'silly high' it can take hours to reduce back to normal so as long as the insulin went in and is being absorbed, no need to panic and better to get some decent sleep, which non-D husbands also find helpful when they have to get up and go to work tomorrow morning too.

So - I charge it overnight same as the phones and anything else eg toothbrush, Pete's 'electric' razor, my previous pump handset/meter .......


----------



## danielmg

Update: I had the first Libre 2 sensor on my chest for approx. 6 days. I woke up this morning for the first scan and received error 'er3,363.P' - sensor could not be found. I tried scanning multiple times but to no avail. I've never had this error code before (any experiences with this?), and before I went to sleep the sensor was working fine. I've therefore had to change sensors 3 times in less than 2 weeks because of errors. I've contacted Abbott to try and get a replacement and will hear back in the next day or two.


----------



## everydayupsanddowns

danielmg said:


> Update: I had the first Libre 2 sensor on my chest for approx. 6 days. I woke up this morning for the first scan and received error 'er3,363.P' - sensor could not be found. I tried scanning multiple times but to no avail. I've never had this error code before (any experiences with this?), and before I went to sleep the sensor was working fine. I've therefore had to change sensors 3 times in less than 2 weeks because of errors. I've contacted Abbott to try and get a replacement and will hear back in the next day or two.



Not an alarm I’ve had either. But I only ever wear them on my arm. 3x Libre 2 so far and they have all run the distance without any problems (though the very first one was a bit flaky results-wise and got replaced)


----------



## Annemarie

My first Libre2 was a pain initially but I think it was me and my phone. I switched it off, closed and redid all the parts of the phone that allow access, there were several buttons to press but since then it’s been fine and oh so useful with the night lows


----------



## nonethewiser

Out in garden earlier with phone on charge in living room, wife shouted out window that phone was alarming, came in & message said bg going low, scanned & it was 3.8 with downward arrow, great that phone still picked up sensor from so far away.


----------



## Paulbreen

danielmg said:


> Update: I had the first Libre 2 sensor on my chest for approx. 6 days. I woke up this morning for the first scan and received error 'er3,363.P' - sensor could not be found. I tried scanning multiple times but to no avail. I've never had this error code before (any experiences with this?), and before I went to sleep the sensor was working fine. I've therefore had to change sensors 3 times in less than 2 weeks because of errors. I've contacted Abbott to try and get a replacement and will hear back in the next day or two.


Hey Dan, any errors starting with 3 are filament related, it sounds like the sensor has moved for some reason, I’m on the 4th since I quit the pump and never had a hiccup with them so far


----------



## danielmg

Paulbreen said:


> Hey Dan, any errors starting with 3 are filament related, it sounds like the sensor has moved for some reason, I’m on the 4th since I quit the pump and never had a hiccup with them so far


Thank you Paul. I've sent all the required info to Abbott so hopefully will hear back soon. I don't know whether this is an issue at all, but I mentioned to Abbott that were error codes in the log from well before I even had the reader (as far back as January 2020). Likely just testing/calibration of the reader, but thought it worth mentioning just in case.

I've currently got my sensor below my chest (almost similar to what you had recommended earlier Paul), and I haven't had any issues as yet. I have however applied a transparent dressing (Cutiderm) over the sensor to protect from any possible water damage. Next time though I'll apply closer to the midline as I find that it can be a little compressed when sleeping on that side.


----------



## Paulbreen

danielmg said:


> Thank you Paul. I've sent all the required info to Abbott so hopefully will hear back soon. I don't know whether this is an issue at all, but I mentioned to Abbott that were error codes in the log from well before I even had the reader (as far back as January 2020). Likely just testing/calibration of the reader, but thought it worth mentioning just in case.
> 
> I've currently got my sensor below my chest (almost similar to what you had recommended earlier Paul), and I haven't had any issues as yet. I have however applied a transparent dressing (Cutiderm) over the sensor to protect from any possible water damage. Next time though I'll apply closer to the midline as I find that it can be a little compressed when sleeping on that side.


Fingers crossed this time Dan


----------



## trophywench

I put my second Libre 2 - on my arm exactly as it says on the tin and put my arms back in my T shirt and cardigan, then started the new sensor.  Worked fine between then and sometime this evening, now the reader can't find the sensor.  I was really pleased with myself too - cos I unscrewed the cover off the inserter, fresh out of its box comparatively easily whereas for every single prescription one I've had before, including the first Libre  2 a fortnight ago. I haven't had the strength - in my wrists I assume? - to undo them.  Clearly ease of opening was not a good sign ....  I assume Abbott will replace it but anyway I haven't ordered a repeat scrip yet and was going to do it next Tuesday ......


----------



## danielmg

Unfortunately, my latest sensor appears to not be working correctly again. Similar to a previous issue i've had, there's no specific error code in the log, but the readings are consistently and significantly lower than BG when tested. The graph also shows consistent low readings which will very likely be inaccurate.

I'm really not sure what I'm doing wrong. I've applied the sensor correctly after preparation, I've tried the recommended and alternative sites, and I am very careful not to cause water damage, compress, or 'knock' the sensor. Although a brilliant piece of technology, the last 4 sensors used have had a total of approx. 3 weeks use to due errors and inaccurate/unreliable readings. 

Is it worth speaking to my local specialist team about how best to resolve, or even look at alternative CGMs (i.e. Dexcom)? 

Thank you again for all of your help so far.


----------



## mikeyB

I’d try sticking the sensor in the place that Abbott recommend. The algorithm is set for that. It is absolutely nothing to do with the reliability of the sensors. That’s assuming you don’t cover the central hole with your various bits of tape.

Abbott won’t replace the sensors if you tell them where you’ve been sticking it. If you don’t, or if you fib, that’s an admission of you doing it wrong. They haven’t written the instructions to annoy people who can’t navigate doors.

Abbott themselves say that it is not approved for sites other than the back of the arm because of the unreliability of readings. You clearly demonstrate their point, so stop doing it wrong. And stop blaming the sensors.

Does that help?


----------



## danielmg

mikeyB said:


> I’d try sticking the sensor in the place that Abbott recommend. The algorithm is set for that. It is absolutely nothing to do with the reliability of the sensors. That’s assuming you don’t cover the central hole with your various bits of tape.
> 
> Abbott won’t replace the sensors if you tell them where you’ve been sticking it. If you don’t, or if you fib, that’s an admission of you doing it wrong. They haven’t written the instructions to annoy people who can’t navigate doors.
> 
> Abbott themselves say that it is not approved for sites other than the back of the arm because of the unreliability of readings. You clearly demonstrate their point, so stop doing it wrong. And stop blaming the sensors.
> 
> Does that help?


I think this is very harsh and patronising. You've assumed I've always been using unapproved sites for sensors, when i've only resorted to alternative sites because of the exact same issues (and more) with sensors at the recommended site. If readings were consistently reliable with minimal errors where Abbott recommended applying the sensor, I would have no reasonable basis for choosing a different site.

Also, just because Abbott have these recommendations, that's all they are. It does not state clearly in its instructions a large printed warning that this particular site (which is not exactly very specific either) is mandatory for correct use. When I've been applying sensors on the back of my arm since October last year and has resulted in approx. 50%+ failure rate, with multiple bent filaments, compression lows, and damage to skin, I think this far from ideal. Would you agree?


----------



## Bexlee

I’m on my 5th libre 2 sensor I’ve had a couple of replacements because of the scan error message coming up a lot, and randomly not scanning - I say randomly it’s the same time about midnight ish and for the same lengths of time (24 minutes) then losing data - showing a gap.  The replacement are a different lot or batch and are working much better. Teething troubles. I seem to remember similar issues at the start of libre 1. I’ve only ever stuck it to the arm and always the left. It doesn’t feel right on the right. I think they suggest alternating arms


----------



## nonethewiser

Bexlee said:


> I’m on my 5th libre 2 sensor I’ve had a couple of replacements because of the scan error message coming up a lot, and randomly not scanning - I say randomly it’s the same time about midnight ish and for the same lengths of time (24 minutes) then losing data - showing a gap.  The replacement are a different lot or batch and are working much better. Teething troubles. I seem to remember similar issues at the start of libre 1. I’ve only ever stuck it to the arm and always the left. It doesn’t feel right on the right. I think they suggest alternating arms



Use phone app so not reader, find rebooting phone helps to resolve error messages so try restarting if using app.


----------



## Paulbreen

nonethewiser said:


> Use phone app so not reader, find rebooting phone helps to resolve error messages so try restarting if using app.


I would second that, I wouldn’t dream of using the reader at all.


----------



## danielmg

Unfortunately, my current phone isn't capable of being used as a scanner, and I'm not allowed to carry my phone with me at work. Surely the dedicated reader should be equally, if not more accurate and reliable, as a phone?


----------



## danielmg

nonethewiser said:


> Use phone app so not reader, find rebooting phone helps to resolve error messages so try restarting if using app.


Is there an option to factory reset the reader and re-connect to the same sensor?


----------



## trophywench

I'm still reeling after it happening yesterday @danielmg - and I removed the sensor last night. and found the filament rock solid at right angles to the 'pad' and rigidly upright, no kinks or anything whatsoever untoward about the thing to the naked eye.

Why the hell did this insist on happening to me at the start of a long, BH weekend?  just part of life's rich pattern ......  aaarghhh.


----------



## Paulbreen

danielmg said:


> Is there an option to factory reset the reader and re-connect to the same sensor?


Hi Dan, I read something on a German diabetes forum, it says to press the home button for 30 seconds and it may do a soft reset, not sure what that means, also it might need to be plugged in when you do it


----------



## nonethewiser

danielmg said:


> Is there an option to factory reset the reader and re-connect to the same sensor?



Really don't know, abbott would be best to say.


----------



## danielmg

Paulbreen said:


> Hi Dan, I read something on a German diabetes forum, it says to press the home button for 30 seconds and it may do a soft reset, not sure what that means, also it might need to be plugged in when you do it


I tried this but unfortunately to no avail. At the moment I am not wearing a sensor as I have already used both from my prescription. I've contacted Abbott again but they're unlikely to reply until Tuesday at the earliest due to the bank holiday weekend.

My reader test has also failed for the first time - and I only have BG test strips compatible with this meter.


----------



## Bexlee

nonethewiser said:


> Use phone app so not reader, find rebooting phone helps to resolve error messages so try restarting if using app.


I use both and it does it on both ......


----------



## danielmg

Bexlee said:


> I use both and it does it on both ......


Just out of interest @Bexlee, how do you reset the reader?


----------



## Bexlee

danielmg said:


> Just out of interest @Bexlee, how do you reset the reader?


I don’t think you can reset reader.

My faulty ones have been the actual sensor. I assume it’s a libre 2 reader you have  - maybe you could ring and ask if it may be a problem with the reader ? I know my reader like others no doubt doesn’t shout when the battery is low. It stops scanning when the battery symbol shows 1/2 full (or empty depending on your glass type thing !) but I don’t realise it’s won’t scan until it doesn’t so I do wonder if there’s a little glitch in them.
After you said yesterday I looked back and also noticed a lot of reading s and error from before I actually had the reader.
You could always try Abbot tomorrow they may not have bank holiday where ever they answer from.


----------



## mikeyB

They don’t answer the phones on bank holidays according to the website. Neither do doctors, come to think.


----------



## danielmg

Yes Abbott not available, as well as GP or Diabetes Clinic, until tomorrow, unfortunately.


----------



## mikeyB

Amazon and Lakeland do, but then they have a better concept of customer service.


----------



## trophywench

(...... or less generous with their contracts of employment ....... )


----------



## danielmg

Just a quick update: I've now received replacements from Abbott for the 2 sensors that stopped working due to different errors. With my latest sensor, I've applied it to my arm (in the recommended site) with a transparent dressing over the top. 12 days in use with no issues (other than the odd no glucose reading message).


----------



## danielmg

I had a strange occurrence when I switched over to a new sensor a couple of days ago. After application (again to the arm), I had a fair amount of blood come through the central area of the sensor. I've had a few 'try again in 10mins' errors, but nothing else thus far. Luckily the bleeding didn't continue after applying a new dressing.


----------



## everydayupsanddowns

danielmg said:


> I had a strange occurrence when I switched over to a new sensor a couple of days ago. After application (again to the arm), I had a fair amount of blood come through the central area of the sensor. I've had a few 'try again in 10mins' errors, but nothing else thus far. Luckily the bleeding didn't continue after applying a new dressing.


Sometimes I’ve seen people post that ‘bleeders are readers’ and they get very results frim sensors like that. Maybe it’s just the relief of them not just completely failing though!


----------



## Lilly

Libre2 Getting the 10 minuted thing a lot.  I'm Type1  slim (skeletal) build and active.  Tried arm exercises to try and get the interstitial fluid moving, but not very successful. Its getting to be rather hit and miss will it won't it scan;  and reverting to FP testing usualy when v.low.  Any comments from Abbott anywhere.


----------



## Titchvic

We have had a few issues with the libre 2 using the reader. Its often out of signal (turned that alarm off now because that was wearing thin in the middle of the night!) Plus the battery life seems a lot less than the libre 1 reader. We're charging it every day?


----------



## Tonygro

Ref said:


> I've had a lot of this lately.  I think they've made the needle longer and sometimes it hits blood.  A couple recently have just stopped working after a 1 day and when I take it off I can see lots of red.


I also have had this message a number of times it’s a big issue for me also I was hoping to move to a closed loop but with these issues I think not.


----------



## everydayupsanddowns

Tonygro said:


> I also have had this message a number of times it’s a big issue for me also I was hoping to move to a closed loop but with these issues I think not.



How ‘wobbly’ are your traces Tony? Sometimes I find various different sensors have to take a bit of a breather if my levels have been rising and falling steeply in quick succession, because their expectation of what is likely to happen has been exceeded, and they just need to take a moment to ensure the flow of glucose data is genuine.

Sometimes it can be a sensor fault, of course, or perhaps one that hasn’t inserted well, so that the filament isn’t properly seated into the right part of the tissue.

Keeping well hydrated helps too.

The hybrid closed loops I have used have been a significant benefit, so I’d suggest they are still worth considering if you can build your sensor confidence, or find a type of sensor that suits you.


----------



## Robert459

Got this response after asking Abbott why it failed:

Thank you for contacting Abbott Diabetes Care.

During the events of rapidly changing glucose level, sensor might not be able to catch the precise value. Therefore, it will ask you to scan again later by the message: "Sensor Error, Try Again in 10 minutes". Small gaps in graph due to that are expected respectively.

When it comes to "Replace Sensor" error message, there are variety of reasons why it may appear. For example if the position of sensor filament will be slightly changed inside your interstitial fluid it may cause the sensor to stop working and provide the "Replace Sensor" error message.

To finish out comments, we would like to suggest that we cannot confirm what was the precise root cause of issue, as there are many details to be taken in consideration. Therefore, we ask the product to be sent back to us for the evaluation purposes.

Once again, we are very grateful that you have shared your feedback with us.

If you require any further assistance, please feel free to contact our Customer Careline Team on 0800 1701177* or again by email on ADCHelpUK@abbott.com.


----------



## mikeyB

I’ve noticed with the Libre2 reader, it gives fairly bizarre messages when the power is in the red line (which you may not notice), like sensor not found, or any of its error messages. Plug it into power and it starts behaving again.

The reason you may not notice the power drop is that it can happen quite quickly. 24  hours operation is the shortest I’ve had, but I think its battery capacity needs to be upgraded to cope with all the new bells and whistles.


----------



## Sugarcoated

I get this often. Usually when my sugars are dropping quickly or going high. I also get a gap in my graph same time every night. 9pm until 10pm i get a gap in my graph. Diabetic don't understand why either. Only why to narrow the gap is to take reading every 5 mins but sometimes its too much & i just think tough lol


----------



## Lucyr

Sugarcoated said:


> I get this often. Usually when my sugars are dropping quickly or going high. I also get a gap in my graph same time every night. 9pm until 10pm i get a gap in my graph. Diabetic don't understand why either. Only why to narrow the gap is to take reading every 5 mins but sometimes its too much & i just think tough lol


I’m guessing you don’t scan between 9pm and 6am? You need to scan at least every 8hrs to capture all the data, so another scan before bed and as soon as you get up


----------



## 69RJB

So 3 libre 1 sensors failed last week. Rather than 6 weeks use, i got less than 6 hrs. Been using libre 1 for around 3 yrs, never had this many fails. All showed fails on initial readings after first hour, then defaulted to sensor not working, replace sensor. Received replacements today. Fitted one…same failure. Not doing anything different to what i’ve done in last 3 yrs. very frustrating. Leading to reduced confidence in the kit. This is a medical device…it should work. Anyone else noticed increasing failure rate?


----------



## Robert459

Has anyone got Abbott to release error codes and the reasons behind them ?  I asked them but never got a response.  Understand company confidential however, these are devices stuck into our bodies and it would be nice to understand what the error codes indicated.  As a previous software person, I'm sure we could manage to understand the error codes.


----------



## pm133

Robert459 said:


> Has anyone got Abbott to release error codes and the reasons behind them ?  I asked them but never got a response.  Understand company confidential however, these are devices stuck into our bodies and it would be nice to understand what the error codes indicated.  As a previous software person, I'm sure we could manage to understand the error codes.


Yes but I suspect that they won't be errors the user has any ability to do anything about.
Under those circumstances, the only reasonable codes to display to a user are:

0 - Sensor working
1 - Sensor broken, contact Abbott for replacement

The sensor itself may well store more detailed logs.
Interesting that the reader or phone app can't be sent the error code by the sensor somehow so that Abbott can see the problem directly via a message rather than needing the physical device.


----------



## rebrascora

pm133 said:


> Interesting that the reader or phone app can't be sent the error code by the sensor somehow so that Abbott can see the problem directly via a message rather than needing the physical device.


The error codes are sent to the reader because they are recorded in the event log and I have been asked to read them to the customer service operator when I have contacted them about a failed sensor.


----------



## pm133

rebrascora said:


> The error codes are sent to the reader because they are recorded in the event log and I have been asked to read them to the customer service operator when I have contacted them about a failed sensor.


Thanks.


----------



## 69RJB

So the latest failure yesterday was showing Er3,373C, then Er3,365C. Just got off the phone to Abbott. Replacement sensor, and a return kit for the failed one, on the way. I assume that there must be quite an issue. I have had 4 failed sensors within a week. If that is happening across the board….must be quite a failure rate at present. It has hit my confidence in the system. Trust and reputation take time to build, but disappear quickly.….i will try the other replacement sensor that i have left tomorrow…..fingers crossed.


----------



## pm133

69RJB said:


> So the latest failure yesterday was showing Er3,373C, then Er3,365C. Just got off the phone to Abbott. Replacement sensor, and a return kit for the failed one, on the way. I assume that there must be quite an issue. I have had 4 failed sensors within a week. If that is happening across the board….must be quite a failure rate at present. It has hit my confidence in the system. Trust and reputation take time to build, but disappear quickly.….i will try the other replacement sensor that i have left tomorrow…..fingers crossed.



Just idly speculating but I wonder if the problem is at the other end of the needle on the sensor.
That's where the needle needs to be connected to the board containing the processor chip. I imagine that somewhere along the line there must be a need for something in the needle mechanism to be soldered to that board. I wonder if that solder joint fractures enough to cause signalling difficulties for the board or is just badly soldered in the first place.
When we insert the sensor, it's quite a jolt the applicator gives it and having seen this sort of fault on one MP3 player after another (fortunately I now have a soldering iron so can fix it) when I've dropped them I can well believe this is a key failure area.

It would be interesting to know but I don't suppose we'll ever find out unless we plant a mole at Abbott HQ. Anyone up for a bit of espionage?


----------



## Robert459

When you push the 2 parts together, you are simply connecting the sensor circuits to the battery circuits, i.e.  initiating the sensor.  Injecting it is a purely physical action.  The error codes could let us know whether it was a physical problem, a big difference between 2 readings or some other problem that they have programmed an error code for.  Not sure why they can't be released to their users.  It might help us look after the sensors a little bit better.


----------



## 69RJB

I wonder if the issue is the fibre that is left implanted by the needle as it withdraws. I wonder if they have changed the spec, pehaps? I wonder if the fibre isn’t transitioning down the implantation needle correctly.


----------



## rebrascora

I wonder if we should start a thread to collate data on error codes to see if we can work out what some of them may mean. So, for instance my last problem ones came loose. One in the shower and one when I caught it working at the yard. I could possibly look back through the events log and hunt out the error codes for those occasions. We could also possibly collate data on serial numbers or batch numbers of problem ones. Anyone up for that or not worth the effort?

I think you are right that the problem with many may be that the filament is not implanted properly for whatever reason. Someone suggested a while back that there may be some wear on the manufacturing machines and a tiny amount of deviation due to that wear might be enough to lead to this problem... ie things not quite lining up perfectly.


----------



## Lucyr

rebrascora said:


> I wonder if we should start a thread to collate data on error codes to see if we can work out what some of them may mean. So, for instance my last problem ones came loose. One in the shower and one when I caught it working at the yard. I could possibly look back through the events log and hunt out the error codes for those occasions. We could also possibly collate data on serial numbers or batch numbers of problem ones. Anyone up for that or not worth the effort?
> 
> I think you are right that the problem with many may be that the filament is not implanted properly for whatever reason. Someone suggested a while back that there may be some wear on the manufacturing machines and a tiny amount of deviation due to that wear might be enough to lead to this problem... ie things not quite lining up perfectly.


It does tell you a bit of what it means in the log. When i knock a sensor off I get 373 Sensor Error try again in 10 minutes at first and then  366 Replace Sensor afterwards.

For sensor is too cold I get 375 sensor too cold. They seem to use 373 and 366 for most errors I find, it doesn’t seem to vary much.


----------



## Stubby

PhoebeC said:


> I have been getting this error for about half an hour, I wait the 10 minutes and it still doesn’t work


Me too. it has been happening at random times during the day and at night.


----------



## Stubby

Simon Workman said:


> I didn't want to start a new thread as its Libre sensor related so thought I'd ask on here. Do any of you guys get intermittent problems with your libre sensor actually working. Its been happening to me more lately. I'll test and it takes the reading. Then I go to test 10 mins later and it says error and can't take a reading. I leave it a few minutes and hey ho it works again. Its quite frustrating.
> 
> Also where do you apply your sensors? I don't have much loose flesh but apply mine about half way up on my upper arm between my elbow and shoulder joint round towards the back side of my arm. Not sure if this is the best place but it is the most fleshy part of my arm.


I have this now with almost every sensor since I started using the libre 2. sometimes, it comes back after 10 minutes but often it can be down for at least 30 minutes or even up to an hour. not sure if its the sensor or the software or the phone. I do know that it's very frustrating.


----------



## Robin

Stubby said:


> I have this now with almost every sensor since I started using the libre 2. sometimes, it comes back after 10 minutes but often it can be down for at least 30 minutes or even up to an hour. not sure if its the sensor or the software or the phone. I do know that it's very frustrating.


Does it happen at times when your Blood Glucose levels are changing rapidly? Either you’ve dropped a bit low and have just eaten something carby, or when you’ve had a carby meal and spiked before the insulin kicks in and starts it dropping? 
The Libre 2 is supposed to have an improved algorithm that catches up the Libre reading (which is 15 minutes behind a blood reading) by predicting where you will be in 15 minutes time, but sometimes in periods of rapid change, it can’t work out where you’ll be, so gives up trying. and won’t give you a reading til your levels have stabilised. 
I find it a bit frustrating, because periods of rapid change are just when I need extra readings! This is why we are told to carry on using a finger prick when we are low, or need to know instantly what our levels are.


----------



## Annemarie

It’s always happened with mine, I usually find turning my ‘phone off for at least 5 mins and then it works straight away.
My Libre is a bit like a husband, far from perfect, sometimes very frustrating but I couldn’t possibly be without!


----------



## Stubby

Robin said:


> Does it happen at times when your Blood Glucose levels are changing rapidly? Either you’ve dropped a bit low and have just eaten something carby, or when you’ve had a carby meal and spiked before the insulin kicks in and starts it dropping?
> The Libre 2 is supposed to have an improved algorithm that catches up the Libre reading (which is 15 minutes behind a blood reading) by predicting where you will be in 15 minutes time, but sometimes in periods of rapid change, it can’t work out where you’ll be, so gives up trying. and won’t give you a reading til your levels have stabilised.
> I find it a bit frustrating, because periods of rapid change are just when I need extra readings! This is why we are told to carry on using a finger prick when we are low, or need to know instantly what our levels are.


I'm not really seeing a pattern like that on mine. I have seen it disappear after a 2mmol drop over a period of about 90 minutes. but I have also seen it be at 5.8 and disappear and be 5.8 half an hour later. If anything, it seems to work better when my readings are really high. I agree that it is really frustrating as I don't have faith in it. It's also only anywhere close to my BG meter when in the range of 4-6mmols. Oh if only I could manage to stay in that range all the time!!


----------



## Stubby

Annemarie said:


> It’s always happened with mine, I usually find turning my ‘phone off for at least 5 mins and then it works straight away.
> My Libre is a bit like a husband, far from perfect, sometimes very frustrating but I couldn’t possibly be without!


lol. I shall have to try turning off my phone and see if that works next time. I tried restarting the phone but that didn't do anything.


----------



## Tonygro

Stubby said:


> Me too. it has been happening at random times during the day and at night.


I also get this maybe a bad batch I have sent 1 back also. I hope this doesn’t keep happening. I was hoping to try a closed loop but if issues like this continue I am having second thoughts.


----------



## rayray119

today my only libere i had 3 stopped working as the other had i had with stopedworking the night before i don't haver any more with me. i'm away am going to concert tomoorew so ideally would like to have one with me


----------



## helli

It's weird - I have been using Libre since the beginning of the year and only experienced one time when it gave the "wait 10 minutes" message. I have not had any failed Libre 2s apart from one that fell off due to bad placement.

The only thing I am doing that is non-standard is using a different app to read it.


----------



## Robert459

I asked Abbott for info on their error "event log messages" but got zero response.  You would think that they might release the error codes, but apparently, it's like a secret.  We can't know why our sensors are failing because they think it's a secret .  That's a shame, we're all in this together, or are we... ?


----------



## AndyV1

Simon Workman said:


> I didn't want to start a new thread as its Libre sensor related so thought I'd ask on here. Do any of you guys get intermittent problems with your libre sensor actually working. Its been happening to me more lately. I'll test and it takes the reading. Then I go to test 10 mins later and it says error and can't take a reading. I leave it a few minutes and hey ho it works again. Its quite frustrating.
> 
> Also where do you apply your sensors? I don't have much loose flesh but apply mine about half way up on my upper arm between my elbow and shoulder joint round towards the back side of my arm. Not sure if this is the best place but it is the most fleshy part of my arm.


Hi Simon, I can see people have been providing their wisdom and advice so won't try to add any myself! What I can say is I've noticed an increase in the frequency of error messages "try again in 10 minutes", as has another Type 1 friend. That's in contrast to say a year ago when it hardly ever happened. Of course there's a raft of explanations offered e.g. sensor not in optimum location, sensor working loose, sensor to hot/too cold etc etc however, I'm inclined to think Abbott might be using a different supplier of components. Reason is none of the explanations apply to my experience or my friends, BG's not being erratic, sensors located as they have been for the past three years, and yet, a recent (past 6 to 8 months) increase in failure rates of sensors ( I use both mobile phone app and the reader as backup). It might be paranoia but I think somethings happened in the quality control department. As good as Abbott are at sending replacements, I don't think that really addresses the issue of why they are having to replace sensors? Having manufactured them for this long they have, should have it down pretty good now for a reliable product......just my frustrated mind venting......!!!!!


----------



## Annemarie

@AndyV1 I agree, I’ve also had more issues with sensors recently. I had a couple fall off easily, when I looked at them the sticky pads only covered half of the Sensor. I reported it to Abbotts, they replaced them immediately and agreed with me that they were probably from a faulty batch


----------



## helli

For balance, I will repeat (as more people complain than express satisfaction)
*I have NO problems with Libre 2 in more than a year*


----------



## everydayupsanddowns

Welcome to the forum @AndyV1 

Unfortunately I don’t think Simon will see your message as this thread is a couple of years old and he hasn’t visited the forum recently


----------



## AndyV1

everydayupsanddowns said:


> Welcome to the forum @AndyV1
> 
> Unfortunately I don’t think Simon will see your message as this thread is a couple of years old and he hasn’t visited the forum recently


Thanks Mike. I'll have to pay attention to those kinds of details in future. Many thanks for advising me on it, much appreciated.
Cheers
Andy


----------



## Proud to be erratic

AndyV1 said:


> Thanks Mike. I'll have to pay attention to those kinds of details in future. Many thanks for advising me on it, much appreciated.
> Cheers
> Andy


That said, it's still a valid topic even if the question does date back to 2018 and there is a value in reading about what remains a long standing issue.
I had 2 sensors replaced in the last fortnight; the first abruptly failed after 8 days [error 373] and the replacement was 4 pts high, then low, then high again - in what was apparently steady (level) state.


----------



## Rob Oldfield

AndyV1 said:


> Hi Simon, I can see people have been providing their wisdom and advice so won't try to add any myself! What I can say is I've noticed an increase in the frequency of error messages "try again in 10 minutes", as has another Type 1 friend. That's in contrast to say a year ago when it hardly ever happened. Of course there's a raft of explanations offered e.g. sensor not in optimum location, sensor working loose, sensor to hot/too cold etc etc however, I'm inclined to think Abbott might be using a different supplier of components. Reason is none of the explanations apply to my experience or my friends, BG's not being erratic, sensors located as they have been for the past three years, and yet, a recent (past 6 to 8 months) increase in failure rates of sensors ( I use both mobile phone app and the reader as backup). It might be paranoia but I think somethings happened in the quality control department. As good as Abbott are at sending replacements, I don't think that really addresses the issue of why they are having to replace sensors? Having manufactured them for this long they have, should have it down pretty good now for a reliable product......just my frustrated mind venting......!!!!!



Think it's fair enough to vent.  The reliability has definitely dropped from what I've been used to with the Libre 1.  I switched onto the 2s a couple of months back and have so far only had one that managed to last the full two weeks and that's including the occasional 10 minute wait - or an hour as I had yesterday evening - where the readings shut down.

I've let my support team know so they're aware, and they also confirmed that as long as the issue is reported back to Abbott then it's them who pay for iffy ones, and not the NHS.

(I'd turn down the offer of switching back to 1s though, the warnings make the 2s so much better.  They just need to sort out the reliability.)


----------



## AndyV1

Rob Oldfield said:


> Think it's fair enough to vent.  The reliability has definitely dropped from what I've been used to with the Libre 1.  I switched onto the 2s a couple of months back and have so far only had one that managed to last the full two weeks and that's including the occasional 10 minute wait - or an hour as I had yesterday evening - where the readings shut down.
> 
> I've let my support team know so they're aware, and they also confirmed that as long as the issue is reported back to Abbott then it's them who pay for iffy ones, and not the NHS.
> 
> (I'd turn down the offer of switching back to 1s though, the warnings make the 2s so much better.  They just need to sort out the reliability.)


I'm definitely conflicted! My experience and that of a Type1 buddy friend says there's something up wirh reliable quality of sensors changing. But then my comments have been challenged because other members have had "no problems" which implies it must be me doing something wrong. 

I think there really is a quality control issue. Even a minority of people reporting inconsistencies or fails means there isn't consistency which really ought not be the case with medical equipment or devices.


----------



## Robin

AndyV1 said:


> I'm definitely conflicted! My experience and that of a Type1 buddy friend says there's something up wirh reliable quality of sensors changing. But then my comments have been challenged because other members have had "no problems" which implies it must be me doing something wrong.
> 
> I think there really is a quality control issue. Even a minority of people reporting inconsistencies or fails means there isn't consistency which really ought not be the case with medical equipment or devices.


It’s definitely a weird situation. If there were a reliability problem, I’d expect there to be a fair spread of people getting problems (with a few clusters, because you always get those in statistics) But some people seem to get all the problems, and for others, such as @helli and me, it seems to be more or less trouble free. I can only imagine that it suits some people's bodies better then others.


----------



## nonethewiser

AndyV1 said:


> I'm definitely conflicted! My experience and that of a Type1 buddy friend says there's something up wirh reliable quality of sensors changing. But then my comments have been challenged because other members have had "no problems" which implies it must be me doing something wrong.
> 
> I think there really is a quality control issue. Even a minority of people reporting inconsistencies or fails means there isn't consistency which really ought not be the case with medical equipment or devices.



Thing is when it was just libre 1 around there was always threads around suggesting members were having issues, no difference now really.

In way it's like buying electrical goods, some will rate brands highly whereas some will rate same brand badly, agree shouldn't be case with medical equipment but that is life, as frustrating as it is.


----------



## AndyV1

I


nonethewiser said:


> Thing is when it was just libre 1 around there was always threads around suggesting members were having issues, no difference now really.
> 
> In way it's like buying electrical goods, some will rate brands highly whereas some will rate same brand badly, agree shouldn't be case with medical equipment but that is life, as frustrating as it is.


 I may have overly high expectations! Unfortunately NHS budgets don't include the very good option Helli mentioned of trailing different makes/brands. 

I confess to being driven partly by the perspective I bring from my work place I.e. if equipment causes issues it prompts a review, not to lay blame but to see if there are solutions (alternatives).

Hey ho, just keep plodding on. Next month I celebrate (!!!) 52 years Type 1. I'd love to say it's been a blast........but.....blah blah blah all the usual standard gripes


----------



## Proud to be erratic

I sit in the middle ground with this. I've had over 25% failure rate, but none that caused a major problem - just frustration at those times.

What does strike me is the apparent lack of overview by the individual in the NHS who manages this contract. We report direct to Abbott our problems; they have a commercial responsibility to resolve this and from my perspective they have always provided a replacement for each failed sensor. What Abbott do with the knowledge from those failures is inevitably 'commercial in confidence' and I (slightly reluctantly) accept that should be so. But there is no sense that the NHS manager for this contract is involved, never mind chasing for improvement - on behalf of users or indeed the taxpayers who ultimately fund this. Is there an audit process that verifies the NHS is getting value for money or the user is getting a product that is fit for purpose? It is very unusual for a contract manager to judge delivery and performance solely on evidence provided by the contractor, rather than the customer. 

I particularly struggle with the concept stated by @nonethewiser "_agree shouldn't be case with medical equipment but that is life, as frustrating as it is". _For household electrical goods - yes; you pay your money and take your choice. But for medical equipment .....  No. 

There is no real place for user comment back to the NHS, either from Users, GPs,  or Spec Diabetes Teams. None of these groups are taking stock; even this forum (as excellent as it all is) is merely a collection of subjective views on what is an expensive medical product which unquestionably is a game changer for those of us who use it.


----------



## nonethewiser

AndyV1 said:


> I
> 
> I may have overly high expectations! Unfortunately NHS budgets don't include the very good option Helli mentioned of trailing different makes/brands.
> 
> I confess to being driven partly by the perspective I bring from my work place I.e. if equipment causes issues it prompts a review, not to lay blame but to see if there are solutions (alternatives).
> 
> Hey ho, just keep plodding on. Next month I celebrate (!!!) 52 years Type 1. I'd love to say it's been a blast........but.....blah blah blah all the usual standard gripes



Been with you for 40 of those years.

Get your frustration, maybe libre 3 will be better who knows, one thing is for certain when libre works well it's amazing piece of kit, can't imagine not having one now & going back to just checking bg, if only these devices were around decades before.


----------



## AndyV1

Proud to be erratic said:


> I sit in the middle ground with this. I've had over 25% failure rate, but none that caused a major problem - just frustration at those times.
> 
> What does strike me is the apparent lack of overview by the individual in the NHS who manages this contract. We report direct to Abbott our problems; they have a commercial responsibility to resolve this and from my perspective they have always provided a replacement for each failed sensor. What Abbott do with the knowledge from those failures is inevitably 'commercial in confidence' and I (slightly reluctantly) accept that should be so. But there is no sense that the NHS manager for this contract is involved, never mind chasing for improvement - on behalf of users or indeed the taxpayers who ultimately fund this. Is there an audit process that verifies the NHS is getting value for money or the user is getting a product that is fit for purpose? It is very unusual for a contract manager to judge delivery and performance solely on evidence provided by the contractor, rather than the customer.
> 
> I particularly struggle with the concept stated by @nonethewiser "_agree shouldn't be case with medical equipment but that is life, as frustrating as it is". _For household electrical goods - yes; you pay your money and take your choice. But for medical equipment .....  No.
> 
> There is no real place for user comment back to the NHS, either from Users, GPs,  or Spec Diabetes Teams. None of these groups are taking stock; even this forum (as excellent as it all is) is merely a collection of subjective views on what is an expensive medical product which unquestionably is a game changer for those of us who use it.


Ok. My knowledge is as follows. Each NHS Trust has a Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG) who sit "above" the Trust in question. A CCG autonomous I.e. does not report to the Trust but does hold the purse strings. Their job, is to commission the services needed for the population served by that Trust. That will include, numbers of staff, equipment prescribed, which services they think are needed. This explains why Libre sensors did not roll out nationally at precisely the same time everywhere. It will be up to each CCG to choose to commission (fund) sensors as a prescribed device. 

CCG's are concerned wirh cost primarily although you will hear them claim they put patients first, if they do it's because they've done the numbers and like the results. But if Abbott is contracted to replace all faulty devices, then it doesn't cost the CCG any more. So, the only way a CCG could be forced to review what they arecl prepared to fund, would be if Libre fails were creating an extra pressure e.g. enough hospital admissions to raise eyebrows. Apart from that happening it dies as you say come down to anecdotal, qualitative evidence which might well be accurate and true......but it's referring to something which isn't causing additional financial burden to each Trust and therefore the CCG's.

That was an extremely dull reply. I live with that same tension in the work place and sometimes I want to smash my head on a wall because of it..........


----------



## AndyV1

nonethewiser said:


> Been with you for 40 of those years.
> 
> Get your frustration, maybe libre 3 will be better who knows, one thing is for certain when libre works well it's amazing piece of kit, can't imagine not having one now & going back to just checking bg, if only these devices were around decades before.


Yes! I tested the first finger prick testing kit when under the John Radcliffe hospital. I also tested the first ever insulin pen in about 1988. Before that it was dip testing urine and comparing the test strip colour to a chart to work out...what??....not blood glucose obviously!


----------



## trophywench

Been with you 50 years in the summer if that ever happens this year - well the date will ! and FWIW I only started using Libre last year because I had a trial two when they first came out and they were not anything like what my glucometer reported, neither did they reveal any pattern whatever.  Hence I never bothered trying again.

Then last year, there was a poster in my D clinic waiting room telling folk to ask.  So I sort of thought Who knows - maybe I should ... and had another try.  I'd got to the bit where I thought 'I reckon this is still a waste of time effort & money so I really ought to stop' when the 2 became available and already being prescribed, it was just changed to the 2.  I had no hope whatever of it being better.

Since then have to say, it has been pretty reliable!  Had one fail a couple of weeks ago.  That's ONE.

What does anyone think - should they be 'Yellow Card' ed ?


----------



## grovesy

AndyV1 said:


> I
> 
> I may have overly high expectations! Unfortunately NHS budgets don't include the very good option Helli mentioned of trailing different makes/brands.
> 
> I confess to being driven partly by the perspective I bring from my work place I.e. if equipment causes issues it prompts a review, not to lay blame but to see if there are solutions (alternatives).
> 
> Hey ho, just keep plodding on. Next month I celebrate (!!!) 52 years Type 1. I'd love to say it's been a blast........but.....blah blah blah all the usual standard gripes


I belive you can report via the Yellow Card system as for drug reaction.


----------



## AndyV1

grovesy said:


> I belive you can report via the Yellow Card system as for drug reaction.


Wondering if enough yellow cards would give Abbott motivation to re-assess component suppliers, manufacture process. 

I'm not against Abbott per se, the sensors have allowed me WAY better A1c results than ever before so can't knock that. But, issues, there are issues. Remember compact discs? Expected failure rate of blank cd's depensant upon brand. And accepted it as a known irritant, but it 2as only a CD. This is different....   

I'm gonna have to stop posting, I'm stuck in a venting rut.


----------



## AndyV1

trophywench said:


> Been with you 50 years in the summer if that ever happens this year - well the date will ! and FWIW I only started using Libre last year because I had a trial two when they first came out and they were not anything like what my glucometer reported, neither did they reveal any pattern whatever.  Hence I never bothered trying again.
> 
> Then last year, there was a poster in my D clinic waiting room telling folk to ask.  So I sort of thought Who knows - maybe I should ... and had another try.  I'd got to the bit where I thought 'I reckon this is still a waste of time effort & money so I really ought to stop' when the 2 became available and already being prescribed, it was just changed to the 2.  I had no hope whatever of it being better.
> 
> Since then have to say, it has been pretty reliable!  Had one fail a couple of weeks ago.  That's ONE.
> 
> What does anyone think - should they be 'Yellow Card' ed ?


Yup, despite venting, I'm sbery grateful to have the control these sensors allow. It's a good invention. Could do with a bit more due diligence in the quality control department.....my opiniin

D


----------



## grovesy

AndyV1 said:


> Wondering if enough yellow cards would give Abbott motivation to re-assess component suppliers, manufacture process.
> 
> I'm not against Abbott per se, the sensors have allowed me WAY better A1c results than ever before so can't knock that. But, issues, there are issues. Remember compact discs? Expected failure rate of blank cd's depensant upon brand. And accepted it as a known irritant, but it 2as only a CD. This is different....
> 
> I'm gonna have to stop posting, I'm stuck in a venting rut.


It could  be if there was an investigation by the MHRA, and they were found wanting.


----------



## Proud to be erratic

AndyV1 said:


> Ok. My knowledge is as follows. Each NHS Trust has a Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG) who sit "above" the Trust in question. A CCG autonomous I.e. does not report to the Trust but does hold the purse strings. Their job, is to commission the services needed for the population served by that Trust. That will include, numbers of staff, equipment prescribed, which services they think are needed. This explains why Libre sensors did not roll out nationally at precisely the same time everywhere. It will be up to each CCG to choose to commission (fund) sensors as a prescribed device.


If the NHS has any similarity to other big Gov't Depts the CCGs will be funding and purchasing from a centrally derived contract. They have the choice over what they fund, but not necessarily the source of supply. And I think high cost equipment like Libre would have emerged from an invitation to tender for the supply of sensors across the full NHS. 

Low cost items might leave Trusts and CCGs with more flexibility, along with local services such as building maintenance - which can't sensibly be provided from a single contract for across UK. One-offs, eg big scanners might also be done on an individual basis - partly because the installation cost is significant as well as the actual piece of equipment.

The disparity in roll-out is, I think, simply down to CCG interpretation along with availability of in-year funds. But most Gov't Depts have to comply with Treasury contract rules (which are always rigorous and cause extra cost in relation to private commercial tendering) and the Public Accounts Committee would be challenging the NHS to explain why they don't use their bulk purchasing power. That's why I think there must be an NHS Contract Manager for this purchase of sensors from Abbott.


AndyV1 said:


> CCG's are concerned wirh cost primarily although you will hear them claim they put patients first, if they do it's because they've done the numbers and like the results. But if Abbott is contracted to replace all faulty devices, then it doesn't cost the CCG any more. So, the only way a CCG could be forced to review what they arecl prepared to fund, would be if Libre fails were creating an extra pressure e.g. enough hospital admissions to raise eyebrows.


I think you've hit a nail on the head here - if CCGs became aware of patient concerns about quality, they would be well placed to raise this with the appropriate NHS manager, but because Abbott's shortcoming with quality control doesn't affect CCGs'  budgets they have little incentive to look into this. How would a CCG even know there is a problem un the background. GPs won't be aware, never mind telling CCGs; Spec teams probably do know, but are part of big hospitals with inherent wasteful processes that just shrug and let apathy rule.


AndyV1 said:


> That was an extremely dull reply. I live with that same tension in the work place and sometimes I want to smash my head on a wall because of it..........


Yes, I also had that tension and frustration in my former workplace. But I was also lucky enough to have been trained (along with many of my colleagues) with an underlying indoctrination that: if you see something wrong and do nothing, then you condone that and in so doing you approve that. That often gave me an avenue to push along seeking improvement in that something.


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## rebrascora

grovesy said:


> It could  be if there was an investigation by the MHRA, and they were found wanting.


My concern would be that if it was yellow carded enough, it would be withdrawn from the market or lose the NHS contract and we would all lose out at least in the short term until they got the reliability sorted. 

I think if they were to give you/us an indication of what the the problem(s) is/are and that they are attempting to address it/them, then we might be more sympathetic or understanding, but simply having them replaced does not leave us with a feel good factor, especially for those who are having persistent problems. I think if they were more open and honest (and surely they must have identified at least some of the issues from the returns they have received), then people would feel less frustrated with them and be more accepting of the situation in the knowledge that they are working on fixing it, but at the moment it must feel for many like they are somehow at fault or at least feel awkward about having to report persistent failures, to say nothing of the time they spend reporting them and the loss of confidence in the product.


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## Proud to be erratic

trophywench said:


> Been with you 50 years in the summer if that ever happens this year - well the date will ! and FWIW I only started using Libre last year because I had a trial two when they first came out and they were not anything like what my glucometer reported, neither did they reveal any pattern whatever.  Hence I never bothered trying again.
> 
> Then last year, there was a poster in my D clinic waiting room telling folk to ask.  So I sort of thought Who knows - maybe I should ... and had another try.  I'd got to the bit where I thought 'I reckon this is still a waste of time effort & money so I really ought to stop' when the 2 became available and already being prescribed, it was just changed to the 2.  I had no hope whatever of it being better.
> 
> Since then have to say, it has been pretty reliable!  Had one fail a couple of weeks ago.  That's ONE.
> 
> What does anyone think - should they be 'Yellow Card' ed ?


Great idea, but if the person responsible for the poor service (NHS or CCG procurement manager) is not actively involved in the service delivery its too easy for Abbott to continue just as they are, justifying their action by saying they invariably replace faulty sensors, without quantifying what percentage they're replacing. Also without the NHS becoming aware that some T1s are discontinuing their use of Libre because of unreliability. Unless an MP is triggered to ask his Parliamentary colleague about this aspect of service delivery.


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## Proud to be erratic

rebrascora said:


> My concern would be that if it was yellow carded enough, it would be withdrawn from the market or lose the NHS contract and we would all lose out at least in the short term until they got the reliability sorted.
> 
> I think if they were to give you/us an indication of what the the problem(s) is/are and that they are attempting to address it/them, then we might be more sympathetic or understanding, but simply having them replaced does not leave us with a feel good factor, especially for those who are having persistent problems. I think if they were more open and honest (and surely they must have identified at least some of the issues from the returns they have received), then people would feel less frustrated with them and be more accepting of the situation in the knowledge that they are working on fixing it, but at the moment it must feel for many like they are somehow at fault or at least feel awkward about having to report persistent failures, to say nothing of the time they spend reporting them and the loss of confidence in the product.


Yes, full agreement from here!


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## Proud to be erratic

AndyV1 said:


> Yup, despite venting, I'm sbery grateful to have the control these sensors allow. It's a good invention. Could do with a bit more due diligence in the quality control department.....my opiniin


Yes, agreed. Also extremely grateful and I would struggle to self fund, without sacrificing something else.

Ironically, this dialogue caused me to look more accurately at my failure  stats. In 13 full months, so 28 or 29 sensor fortnights, I've got paperwork for 15 deliveries of replacement sensors, which means I've had c.50% fail. I had deluded myself into thinking it was nearer 25%.


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## trophywench

Ah well - broadened the discussion!


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## rayray119

Proud to be erratic said:


> Yes, agreed. Also extremely grateful and I would struggle to self fund, without sacrificing something else.
> 
> Ironically, this dialogue caused me to look more accurately at my failure  stats. In 13 full months, so 28 or 29 sensor fortnights, I've got paperwork for 15 deliveries of replacement sensors, which means I've had c.50% fail. I had deluded myself into thinking it was nearer 25%.


When i was using them only 2 lasted the full 14 days out of i dont know how many


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## nonethewiser

AndyV1 said:


> Yes! I tested the first finger prick testing kit when under the John Radcliffe hospital. I also tested the first ever insulin pen in about 1988. Before that it was dip testing urine and comparing the test strip colour to a chart to work out...what??....not blood glucose obviously!



Remember those changes well, just like libre & cgm today they were godsend, same with faster acting insulin, less time hanging about waiting for insulin to kick in.


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## Benny G

I've been using Libre for five years, I was able to get switched to prescription almost three years ago. During almost all that time I have used blucon, xdrip, phone and watch with Libre 1. (I have also used two Libre 2 sensors.) 

During the full five years I have had seven sensors replaced due to failure. Three of those failures occurred during a single week, so perhaps a bad batch may have been responsible. 

These last three years I have not had a single bad sensor, so seventy good sensors in a row for me. 

I always keep two spare Libre sensors in my house, just in case, but Abbott seem to be performing at a very reasonable level.


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