# Dark Times



## Diabeticliberty

I may be jumping the gun this morning but it would appear with current results of 244 to 215 the Americans for reasons I can not begin to understand are electing  a complete crackpot as president. I hope I am a country mile away but feel that this may prove to be a dark day in the history of the world.  Our independent nuclear deterrent may be really very relevant in the years to come since the oaf has suggested drawing back from NATO along with many other of his hair brained vote grabbing schemes . God help us all


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## Marsbartoastie

I'm in shock and need some time to digest this.  Usually a cheery optimistic person...today I'm filled with foreboding.


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## Ljc

It's  scarey.  I hope you're wrong too DL, sadly I don't think you are only time will tell.


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## Greyhound Gal

I'm with you Marsbar. Totally flabbergasted and just lost for words.


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## AlisonM

My mind is totally boggled, unless there's a last minute miracle, we're stuck with the twat. What in dog's name are the Americans thinking? And it gets worse with the Republicans in control of both Senate and Congress, that means there are no brakes on the vehicle at all.


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## grovesy

yeah very scary, I suspect there will be more surprises in the major elections in Europe next year!


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## Diabeticliberty

Clinton has just rang Trump and conceded defeat


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## AlisonM

I'm going back to bed, see you all in 4 years.


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## Rosiecarmel

I can't even believe what I've woken up to. Trump is a hateful, racist, bigot and now is the president of the United States. I'm in shock


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## Mark T

The worlds gone mad!

Oh well, at least it will boost the wall building industries...


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## Northerner

How does a country go from Barack and Michelle to Donald and Melania? Madness


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## Owen

He wont survive


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## palmoff

This should be interesting!
Got my bumper bag of popcorn at the ready.


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## Greyhound Gal

And there is nowhere to run to get away from him...
2017 - the year the world went mad


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## Owen

We are going to need that moon to give some hope of light


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## mikeyB

The one thing to hang on to, is that he is definitely not a republican. His isolationist views, and his views on trade agreements are directly contrary to republican policy, as are his views on Nato. We have just got to hope that his worst extremes are tempered.

He won't last a year, I don't think. Somebody will off him before he does too much harm. 

As I type this, the international financial markets are in freefall. Not a single world leader has sent congratulations.


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## MikeTurin

Rosiecarmel said:


> I can't even believe what I've woken up to. Trump is a hateful, racist, bigot and now is the president of the United States. I'm in shock


You haven't followed Italian politics since 1994, isn't it? We have had a former real-estate entrapeneur turned politician.


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## Marsbartoastie

My boss is working from home today.  He's just sent me a text that reads "If anyone needs me today I'll be in a dark room weeping".


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## grovesy

mikeyB said:


> The one thing to hang on to, is that he is definitely not a republican. His isolationist views, and his views on trade agreements are directly contrary to republican policy, as are his views on Nato. We have just got to hope that his worst extremes are tempered.
> 
> He won't last a year, I don't think. Somebody will off him before he does too much harm.
> 
> As I type this, the international financial markets are in freefall. Not a single world leader has sent congratulations.


Putin is the first to congratulate him!
I am glad I off out to have sports massage as you would think nothing else is going on! There has been a tram accident and the BBC not even given it a mention!


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## Diabeticliberty

I've just found a piece on the BBC Website that shows 30 things that Donald believes. Some are a little bit 'off the wall' others are just plain crazy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34903577


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## Amigo

mikeyB said:


> The one thing to hang on to, is that he is definitely not a republican. His isolationist views, and his views on trade agreements are directly contrary to republican policy, as are his views on Nato. We have just got to hope that his worst extremes are tempered.
> 
> He won't last a year, I don't think. Somebody will off him before he does too much harm.
> 
> As I type this, the international financial markets are in freefall. Not a single world leader has sent congratulations.



Putin was effusive in his quick congratulations Mike which is worrying in itself!


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## pottersusan




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## Jonsi

So we have one President hell bent on protectionism, xenophobia, anti-immigration and isolationism ...and then we have Putin.
Russia has always wanted a warm water port so it will bomb it's way through Syria under the pretence of caring about people, America will pull its bases out of Turkey, Russia will fill the void by walking into Turkey and the US & Russia will just glower at each other over the rest of a disintegrating Europe. Happy days are here again.


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## Redkite

Amigo said:


> Putin was effusive in his quick congratulations Mike which is worrying in itself!



On the other hand, it would be even worse to have tense relations between Russia and the U.S.


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## Redkite

AlisonM said:


> My mind is totally boggled, unless there's a last minute miracle, we're stuck with the twat. What in dog's name are the Americans thinking? And it gets worse with the Republicans in control of both Senate and Congress, that means there are no brakes on the vehicle at all.



However, senior republicans do not back Trump's more "out there" policy ideas, so hopefully they'll do what they can to restrain him.  Poor America, and just like here it was only the tiniest of majorities, ie nearly 50% DIDN'T want him


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## Jonsi

Redkite said:


> On the other hand, it would be even worse to have tense relations between Russia and the U.S.


give it time...


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## zuludog

It's interesting to compare this with our Referendum - same sort of popular anti establishment result that took the media & the pollsters by surprise

I'm by no means a fan of Donald Trump (I can never forgive him for his Scottish golf course) but I suspect he might mellow and not pursue some of his more outlandish policies

I'm willing to give him a chance


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## Northerner

Redkite said:


> nearly 50% DIDN'T want him


More than 50% didn't want him, as about 5% of the vote went to the third party candidates  That's democracy for you 

It does annoy me also when Brexiteers go on about 'the people have spoken' and make out like they got a huge majority. If Cameron had been blessed with any sense he would have set the bar higher than 50%. In fact only about 37% of the people eligible to vote, voted to leave. What I think was more concerning about Brexit was the fact that those most affected by the consequences got no vote at all - voting age should have been 16, as it's their future, not the people who will probably be pushing up daisies before it's all been sorted out. Which brings another point - we are stuck with the consequences of Brexit forever, the US can vote someone else in in 4 years time


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## Northerner

zuludog said:


> same sort of popular anti establishment result that took the media & the pollsters by surprise


They've missed this over and over again - it's the reason why they don't understand Jeremy Corbyn's popularity, or Bernie Sanders in the US


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## Jonsi

Northerner said:


> They've missed this over and over again - it's the reason why they don't understand Jeremy Corbyn's popularity, or Bernie Sanders in the US


...and why they don't want proper PR in this country


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## grovesy

Jonsi said:


> ...and why they don't want proper PR in this country


I watched a propsal on electoral reform brought by the leader of the Green Party, in the last few months. The conservatives gave her a hard time and she was not even proposing a system she was open to discuss. 
I am someone who has never had an MP for whom I have voted!


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## Diabeticliberty

Northerner said:


> They've missed this over and over again - it's the reason why they don't understand Jeremy Corbyn's popularity, or Bernie Sanders in the US




You cannot be serious? Corbyn will get annihilated at the next general election. Hows in God's name can we have a Prime Minister who does not want an updated Trident Program? It is more important now than at any time in my life that we have a strong nuclear deterrent with a strong Prime Minister prepared to use it when Vladimir starts getting expansionist. An alternative of course is to shelve it and spend the money on teaching all our kids to speak Russian. 


For the record the Labour Party are back in the mid 1970's - solidarity brother


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## Northerner

Diabeticliberty said:


> You cannot be serious? Corbyn will get annihilated at the next general election. Hows in God's name can we have a Prime Minister who does not want an updated Trident Program? It is more important now than at any time in my life that we have a strong nuclear deterrent with a strong Prime Minister prepared to use it when Vladimir starts getting expansionist. An alternative of course is to shelve it and spend the money on teaching all our kids to speak Russian.
> 
> 
> For the record the Labour Party are back in the mid 1970's - solidarity brother


Looks like you've missed it too...


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## Diabeticliberty

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...r-suffers-worst-opinion-poll-ratings-the-par/

Lies, lies it's all lies why oh why does nobody like him. Boo hoo it's just not fair. Let's have a socialist revolution. Nahhhhhhh don't think so


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## Andy HB

I think, in order to understand why Trump won, you need look no further than Hillary Clinton.

She needs to look long and hard at herself to work out why she wasn't a 'walk-in' into the Presidency. I think almost any other candidate would have been.

But, as with Brexit, I remain optimistic. Whilst he is the president, he will have to rely on many others to get things done. Perhaps that will curtail his worst excesses.

Andy


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## Andy HB

grovesy said:


> Putin is the first to congratulate him!
> I am glad I off out to have sports massage as you would think nothing else is going on! There has been a tram accident and the BBC not even given it a mention!



Yes they have.


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## Marsbartoastie

I like much of what Corbyn stands for, but I can't help feeling that it's time to stop being idealistic and get realistic.  The Labour Party can only change things if it can form a government.  With Corbyn at the helm it will be in the political wilderness for years...certainly long enough for the NHS to be damaged beyond repair.

I never thought I'd be taking this line, but there are times when compromise is the best option.


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## Jonsi

It doesn't matter who anyone votes for - the Government always get in. IF this country were to have a fairer electoral system instead of FPTP then we would get representation from across the political spectrum. I don't like UKIPs politics but they got more votes than the LibDems and SNP put together and got just 1 seat at Westminster compared to 56 for the SNP and 8 for the LibDems. More people voted against the current Government than voted for them.That cannot be fair or right. Add Labour's votes to the LibDems votes and you get more than the Conservatives but between them they got 90 fewer seats. Democratic? Majority? Clear mandate? I don't think so. Our voting system is plain wrong, America's is worse.


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## Marsbartoastie

Jonsi said:


> It doesn't matter who anyone votes for - the Government always get in. IF this country were to have a fairer electoral system instead of FPTP then we would get representation from across the political spectrum. I don't like UKIPs politics but they got more votes than the LibDems and SNP put together and got just 1 seat at Westminster compared to 56 for the SNP and 8 for the LibDems. More people voted against the current Government than voted for them.That cannot be fair or right. Add Labour's votes to the LibDems votes and you get more than the Conservatives but between them they got 90 fewer seats. Democratic? Majority? Clear mandate? I don't think so. Our voting system is plain wrong, America's is worse.


Here, here.


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## macabee

The  Washington elite in the US have made the same mistake as the chattering classes AKA the London centric liberal elite made.


Prior to the vote on Brexit, they stated that the electorate who vote for Brexit [Trump] are ‘uneducated’ and do ‘not know what they are voting for’ labelling them as stupid. People do not like being labelled as stupid, they will react accordingly and they sure did.

The US electorate had the option of Donald Trump shown warts and all, considered abrasive and egotistical and Hilary Clinton someone they considered unreliable, a crook and not presidential material


They have overwhelmingly made their choice, for the next four years.

Before Brexit the naysayers postulated that the end was nigh, world war III would erupt, disaster would overcome us.

Well it hasn’t and it won’t.

The naysayers, pollsters and political pundits got it wrong again.

Get over it.


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## Diabeticliberty

Jonsi said:


> It doesn't matter who anyone votes for - the Government always get in. IF this country were to have a fairer electoral system instead of FPTP then we would get representation from across the political spectrum. I don't like UKIPs politics but they got more votes than the LibDems and SNP put together and got just 1 seat at Westminster compared to 56 for the SNP and 8 for the LibDems. More people voted against the current Government than voted for them.That cannot be fair or right. Add Labour's votes to the LibDems votes and you get more than the Conservatives but between them they got 90 fewer seats. Democratic? Majority? Clear mandate? I don't think so. Our voting system is plain wrong, America's is worse.




Jonsi when the Lib Dems tried for alternative to First Past The Post it never got past the starting post  On the subject of alternatives to the current darlings that we have in government in order to kick them out we really need a credible alternative and I am truly sorry about this but currently we do not have a credible alternative to the Conservatives who for the record I have no real time for. The thing is though we have nobody else


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## Diabeticliberty

macabee said:


> The  Washington elite in the US have made the same mistake as the chattering classes AKA the London centric liberal elite made.
> 
> 
> Prior to the vote on Brexit, they stated that the electorate who vote for Brexit [Trump] are ‘uneducated’ and do ‘not know what they are voting for’ labelling them as stupid. People do not like being labelled as stupid, they will react accordingly and they sure did.
> 
> The US electorate had the option of Donald Trump shown warts and all, considered abrasive and egotistical and Hilary Clinton someone they considered unreliable, a crook and not presidential material
> 
> 
> They have overwhelmingly made their choice, for the next four years.
> 
> Before Brexit the naysayers postulated that the end was nigh, world war III would erupt, disaster would overcome us.
> 
> Well it hasn’t and it won’t.
> 
> The naysayers, pollsters and political pundits got it wrong again.
> 
> Get over it.





With respect before you start bringing out the bunting, cream cakes and champagne to celebrate the roaring success of Brexit it might be an idea to let it start which thus far it hasn't. Only when Article 50 has been triggered can we determine the success of Brexit or otherwise. For the record I personally deal with 3 companies local to me who are going to go to the wall as a result of leaving Europe. In essence this will make about 50 men and women with children possibly without an income over the Christmas period or shortly after. I don't think that they will 'get over it' as you so eloquently suggest quite so easily.


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## Jonsi

Diabeticliberty said:


> With respect before you start bringing out the bunting, cream cakes and champagne to celebrate the roaring success of Brexit.


Might I offer a slight correction ...Only when Article 50 has been triggered _and the exit negotiations have been completed (remembering that triggering Article 50 is merely the beginning of the end) _can we determine the success of Brexit or otherwise.

Staying within Europe with the imposition of policies and values that do not coincide with those in this country is/was impossible. Exiting from Europe and maintaining the bits of membership that we enjoyed is/was  equally impossible. There is no quick and simple way to untangle ourselves from the beast that is Europe without one or other section of our society being injured, whether that is business (with all the unwanted social implications of Brexit) or social (with all the unwanted economic implications). What we'll end up with is a pig's dinner that will serve nobody well - not even pigs and, by the time it is complete and the damage is done why, we'll be just in time for another General Election. So either we'll allow the Conservatives to wallow in a mess of their own doing and let them blame "Yerp" or we'll elect someone else who will just spend their term blaming the Tories for the mess we're in.

In the meantime real people will really suffer ...and it will be the ones who can't afford to suffer that will be hit the hardest. One thing I can predict with almost absolute certainty is that those elected to Parliament (of whichever colour) will not suffer...in any way shape or form.


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## mikeyB

Jonsi, could I ask which policies and values have been imposed that don't coincide with those in this country? Would that be workers rights, or beaches that aren't awash with used nappies and condoms.? Would that be the protection of original names such as Melton Mowbray pies or Arbroath Smokies?  Or would it be the European arrest warrant, without which the UK will become a haven for European criminals?

I just put these questions to see which ones you want to get rid of.


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## Diabeticliberty

mikeyB said:


> Jonsi, could I ask which policies and values have been imposed that don't coincide with those in this country? Would that be workers rights, or beaches that aren't awash with used nappies and condoms.? Would that be the protection of original names such as Melton Mowbray pies or Arbroath Smokies?  Or would it be the European arrest warrant, without which the UK will become a haven for European criminals?
> 
> I just put these questions to see which ones you want to get rid of.




Victor i think that you misunderstand Jonsi's point. I think he is suggesting that as we took the silly decision to leave then we are faced with full consequences. From the general tone of his reply I think he supported remain like many of the rest of us


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## Mark T

Oh, don’t forget as well as getting rid of those horrible foreign values – lets also get rid of those awful foreign words that have infected our language.

Like all the Latin that came in with the Romans, the Anglo-Saxon that came in when the Vikings invaded and those especially nasty French words that came in with the Norman invasion (OK, technically the Normans were also Vikings).  Although maybe we should dump the German words in our language too.  But then we would be left with pretty much nothing left.  I suppose at least if we can’t talk to each other we can’t have arguments.

(this is tongue in cheek also)


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## Martin Canty

The old ones are the best.....

The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the EU rather than German which was the other possibility.

As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five year phase-in plan that would be known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of the "k". This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan have 1 less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like "fotograf" 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be ekspekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent "e"s in the language is disgraseful, and they should go away.

By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v". During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining "ou" and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to understand ech ozer. Ze drem vil finali kum tru!


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## Jonsi

Diabeticliberty said:


> Victor i think that you misunderstand Jonsi's point. I think he is suggesting that as we took the silly decision to leave then we are faced with full consequences. From the general tone of his reply I think he supported remain like many of the rest of us


He shoots...he scores. Pretty much hit it on the head the DL.
I wanted to remain because I think it makes sense to - we are better together. I have some concerns about uncontrolled immigration but I have equal concerns about the NHS, civil liberties, inward investment to help keep communities alive, the welfare of those who cannot look after themselves, those who are oppressed, fleeing persecution and so on. I sometimes think that the politicians in Europe (and I include the UK politicians in this) are sometimes too hung up on the game of politics to see whether what they're doing is actually in the interests of the people or just their party dogma.


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## Owen

I'm off to Walden 2


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## Diabeticliberty

I'm off to Dantooine. If it was good enough for young Skywalker then it's good enough for an old bacca like yours truly


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## AlisonM

I'm considering a move to Mars myself. It's far safer there.

I agree with everything Jonsi has said. I voted remain for exactly the same reasons, straight bananas and fishing quotas notwithstanding, I truly believe we would have been better off staying in.


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## AlisonM

As an aside, there is no form of government (elected or not) that is fair to all, there are only those that are less unfair. Unless individuals are prepared to go out and vote on *every single* matter normally dealt with by parliaments and councils. People are far too lazy to do that so we're stuck with electing people who actually want to run things, a good reason IMO for using section 8 on them.


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## grovesy

I can't unstand why if neither front runners where acceptable, why more did not vote for independents!


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## Martin Canty

grovesy said:


> I can't unstand why if neither front runners where acceptable, why more did not vote for independents


American politics is a strange beast, while there were independents it's very much a 2 party system with nobody else getting a look in. People think of themselves as either Democrats or Republicans & there is very little else to cover the polar opposites.


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## Bubbsie

Rosiecarmel said:


> I can't even believe what I've woken up to. Trump is a hateful, racist, bigot and now is the president of the United States. I'm in shock


I agree Rosie...but...you forget to mention sexist!


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## mikeyB

Martin Canty said:


> American politics is a strange beast, while there were independents it's very much a 2 party system with nobody else getting a look in. People think of themselves as either Democrats or Republicans & there is very little else to cover the polar opposites.



What makes me laugh is the republicans characterising the democrats as lefties. Most democrats would sit happily on the conservative benches in the UK, even in the current government which Brits perceive as demonically right wing.


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## Martin Canty

So true @mikeyB , they think of me as a socialist whereas my politics are a little to the left of center in the UK


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## Owen

If you look at the voting divide, the map looks similar to The Man in the High Castle, irony or omen?


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## mikeyB

Omen, I think Owen. Irony is too light a word.


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## Andy HB

We're all doomed, I tell 'e, DOOMED! 

(in one's best Scottish accent).

Andy (we're not really) HB


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## ChrisSamsDad

Andy HB said:


> I think, in order to understand why Trump won, you need look no further than Hillary Clinton.
> 
> She needs to look long and hard at herself to work out why she wasn't a 'walk-in' into the Presidency. I think almost any other candidate would have been.
> 
> But, as with Brexit, I remain optimistic. Whilst he is the president, he will have to rely on many others to get things done. Perhaps that will curtail his worst excesses.
> 
> Andy



Well, except for the fact that she got 233,404 more people to vote for her than voted for him. But that's not how the system works, it's the electoral college that actually votes the president in.


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## Andy HB

ChrisSamsDad said:


> Well, except for the fact that she got 233,404 more people to vote for her than voted for him. But that's not how the system works, it's the electoral college that actually votes the president in.



I remember, and this maybe wrong, that it is possible for those in the electoral college to vote otherwise from how they stated that they would vote. Thereby possibly changing the 'result' of the election.

It would be very interesting to know whether or not this ever happened or is just a notional possibility (or just plain wrong!).


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## mikeyB

Whether or not that would be possible, it's hardly democratic. First past the post has been discussed before in the US, but it's never gained any traction. It might now, but Trump won't introduce it, will he?


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## ChrisSamsDad

mikeyB said:


> Whether or not that would be possible, it's hardly democratic. First past the post has been discussed before in the US, but it's never gained any traction. It might now, but Trump won't introduce it, will he?


it's hardly democratic that essentially you have to be a millionaire to even stand for president, and have billionaire media owners back you.


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## mikeyB

ChrisSamsDad said:


> it's hardly democratic that essentially you have to be a millionaire to even stand for president, and have billionaire media owners back you.


Fair point, but when did you last see a poor prime minister?


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## pottersusan

mikeyB said:


> Fair point, but when did you last see a poor prime minister?


What's the betting she's self funding a CGM?!


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