# Blames diabetes for bad manners!



## Pumper_Sue (Dec 14, 2011)

I suspect many have seen this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-16177725

He also said he was diabetic, had not eaten much all day and had not slept the night before because he had been studying. 

"[This] had perhaps quite an adverse effect on my mood and my mannerisms at that time, but still I don't condone the way I spoke to the conductor," he said.

Then he admits
The student admitted he had been drinking before the incident, but said he was not drunk.

Erm hello, there's no excuse what so ever for what he said to the ticket collector and good on the passenger for removing the foul mouthed little  twerp.


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## Northerner (Dec 14, 2011)

I agree - the passenger should be applauded for chucking him off (unless he was hypo, which he wasn't - that would have been a very different story)


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## imtrying (Dec 14, 2011)

whilst I agree he should NOT have spoken like that, I did cringe at the force that was used on the guy...and that his belongings were left on the train.


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## Pumper_Sue (Dec 14, 2011)

imtrying said:


> whilst I agree he should NOT have spoken like that, I did cringe at the force that was used on the guy...and that his belongings were left on the train.



His belonging were not left on the train. The force was used due to the non payer refusing to put his legs in operation and move.


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## Andy HB (Dec 14, 2011)

imtrying said:


> whilst I agree he should NOT have spoken like that, I did cringe at the force that was used on the guy...and that his belongings were left on the train.



I agree that he should not have been thrown to the floor like he was. But his belongings were also put off the train. It's just that he didn't realise (probably due to concussion!).

But, if he was more polite to the train guard it would have been realised that he'd been given the wrong tickets in the first place (allegedly he had bought two singles, one being a return, but he'd been given two singles in the same direction).

Andy


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## Ellie Jones (Dec 14, 2011)

At what point was the muppet thrown to the floor?

You don't see the beginning of the argument (it seems that not all was captured) you see the man get up out of the seat, grab the lad who has no intention of moving from his seat..  The lad is walking backwards arguing with the passenger who is shoving him to move towards the door..  The lad loses his footing and falls backwards easy done when you walking backwards..

So he's not thrown to the floor far from it, and from what I can see neither is he thrown to the platform floor, just exited out the train with a good shove and the passenger only assist the conductor prevent the lad getting back on the train...

The moral of the story, if you don't want the strife or the indignity of being exited off a train..  Then behave appropriately and treat others how you would like to be treated yourself...

As you can see I have no sympathy for the lad what's so ever..

P.S

However I did several years ago, have sympathy with 2 young lads on the train I was traveling on,  they been told at the station that their train had been cancelled so to go on the train I was on, this meant that their tickets didn't match up, and the conductor was absolutely rude to them, as the politely explained the situation etc...   But the conductor was having none of it, and threatened them with all sorts before slinging them off the train at the next station


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## Andy HB (Dec 14, 2011)

Ellie Jones said:


> At what point was the muppet thrown to the floor?



I think it was when he was thrown off the train and explains the large red graze on his cheek.  Shoving/Thrown .... all the same to me. Also, I seem to remember that trains are quite high up from platforms usually, so being shoved backwards towards the door is not a bright thing to be doing.

Also, even if someone is behaving in a boorish fashion, that doesn't excuse equivalent boorish behaviour by others.

Andy


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## FM001 (Dec 14, 2011)

A lad I grew up with is a train conductor and the abuse he has to put up with from passengers is appalling, I often say I couldn't do his job and the money they are paid bears no reflection to the difficult circumstances they endure.


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## Ellie Jones (Dec 14, 2011)

Andy so you'll saying that we stand back and do nothing!

Sorry mate I'm a firm believer if our youth were dealt physical chastisement appropriately as they grew up, they wouldn't be as aggressive or violent nor as anti-social as they are today...

See I bet that if the lad knew that he might be roughly handled by another passenger who came to the aid of the conductor, he wouldn't have behaved so boorishly towards the conductor in the first place!  So wouldn't be pushed down a train, pushed out the train door, and wouldn't have lost his footing..

He's only got himself to blame for what happened nobody else..


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## Pumper_Sue (Dec 14, 2011)

That train was also stranded as were all the passengers for half an hour because of his refusal to pay or leave the train.


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## Robster65 (Dec 14, 2011)

I'm with Andy on this one.

If the lad had fallen over and broken his arm or (as suggested) got concussion, etc then the other passenger would have been prosecuted for assault.

Not a good outcome.

Better to deal with it appropriately using the powers they have. eg. ask for witnesses, call police and let them sort him out.

If we all become vigilantes, there's going to be a lot of mistakes and a lot of people getting hurt.

Rob


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## Northerner (Dec 14, 2011)

Ellie Jones said:


> Andy so you'll saying that we stand back and do nothing!
> 
> Sorry mate I'm a firm believer if our youth were dealt physical chastisement appropriately as they grew up, they wouldn't be as aggressive or violent nor as anti-social as they are today...
> 
> ...



I once held a lad back as he tried to push onto a bus in front of a frail elderly lady - he complained very bitterly about his 'treatment' but I didn't feel I had done anything wrong - he was being unacceptably rude and needed to be made aware it was not something he could just get away with.  I wasn't violent but I was assertive. Common sense needs to play a part.


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## HelenM (Dec 14, 2011)

I don't think you can justify any sort of force in  these circumstances. He didn't slip, he was pushed and could well  have been far more seriously injured.  We rightfully have laws that limit the use of any sort of violent actions.Violence may sometimes be necessary, but is never just. In this case I don't think it was  necessary.
 If the inspector felt the young man was travelling without paying and wouldn't pay or provide an  address then shouldn't he have moved on  and asked for the transport police to meet the train?.... the young man wasn't going anywhere.  I'd also point out that we have only a snippet, we don't know what was said by either party before the video.

 And where would you draw the line?
What if you'd  read the same story and then discovered the young man was hypoglycaemic. Some people who are hypo can behave in very aggressive ways, aiming their aggression on whoever impedes them.
  I know the first person I ever saw having a hypo (long before I had D) was swearing his head off at the ambulance men who were violating his space.

  Not so long ago I was on a train in the UK, went into my pocket for my ticket and it wasn't there. The inspector straight away believed me and told me not to worry,  I was a  polite, middle aged woman (and I was fortunate there was no barrier at my destination)


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## redrevis (Dec 14, 2011)

HelenM said:


> I don't think you can justify any sort of force in  these circumstances. He didn't slip, he was pushed and could well  have been far more seriously injured.
> 
> And where would you draw the line?



Exactly. Lets not forget people who have been pushed to the floor have been killed by hitting their head on the concrete, for example. Then the pusher is put in prison for manslaughter, thus ruining their life i'd imagine. Is it worth it?

I do also agree that yobs need to be shown they can't abuse people, as they do seem to think they can do as they please to whoever they please these days. But who's right is it to enforce this? When does vigilantism go too far? Is shoving them to the ground, over the line? Because of the injuries (sometimes fatal) this can cause? It sure is a debate I can see the arguments for both sides.


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## Northerner (Dec 14, 2011)

redrevis said:


> ...I do also agree that yobs need to be shown they can't abuse people, as they do seem to think they can do as they please to whoever they please these days. But who's right is it to enforce this? When does vigilantism go too far? Is shoving them to the ground, over the line? Because of the injuries (sometimes fatal) this can cause? It sure is a debate I can see the arguments for both sides.



I think that verbal abuse is a form of violence that should be acknowledged also. Things definitely seem to have moved away from a practical rebuffal of this to becoming a situation where the common sense reaction is deemed prosecutable


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## Pumper_Sue (Dec 14, 2011)

Interestingly the lad has changed his story yet again. None so far have matched up to the video shown.


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## aymes (Dec 14, 2011)

I don't think there are any clear heroes as opposed to villains in this story - the young guy in questions behaved appallingly and that absolutely cannot be excused. Equally the inexcusable actions of one individual does not, in my opinion, give permission to another individual to respond in such an aggressive manner. Absolutely his behaviour should have been tackled but I don't feel that physical violence is the answer, and I feel that the 'Big man's' behaviour crossed that line.

And I really hope that people aren't falling into the trap, that I've seen stated in a lot of comment on this story elsewhere, that this incident is some sort of indictment on today's 'youth' or 'young people'. Despite what the media want us to believe, the vast majority of young people are decent, law abiding individuals and it is so sad to see incidents such as this cited as a typical example of the 'youth of today'.


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## Andy HB (Dec 15, 2011)

Ellie Jones said:


> Andy so you'll saying that we stand back and do nothing!



Simple answer in this case, Yes! The train guard was quite capable. He wasn't in danger and had the ability to deal with the situation using established procedures. There was no immediate need for anyone else to get physically involved.

And don't you dare imply that I'm a stand back and do nothing kind of person. I get involved when there is a need and have done so in the past. Stopping a neighbour being beaten to a pulp is one example. 

Andy


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## Andy HB (Dec 15, 2011)

Northerner said:


> I once held a lad back as he tried to push onto a bus in front of a frail elderly lady - he complained very bitterly about his 'treatment' but I didn't feel I had done anything wrong - he was being unacceptably rude and needed to be made aware it was not something he could just get away with.  I wasn't violent but I was assertive. *Common sense needs to play a part*.



I completely 100% agree with what you did Alan and your last sentence. Your action was reasoned and proportionate.

Andy


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## Andy HB (Dec 15, 2011)

Pumper_Sue said:


> That train was also stranded as were all the passengers for half an hour because of his refusal to pay or leave the train.



In that case the train guard was at fault. He has the powers to deal with the matter. If there were no police locally, then he should have got the train moving and had the police meeting the train at the next suitable station.


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## margie (Dec 15, 2011)

They were discussing the incident on Breakfast yesterday and one comment was that British Transport Police could have been called who would have met the train at the next station. Whatever was happening would have been dealt with and the train would not have been held up.

I was on a bus once when a group of people were being rowdy ( I can't remember all the details). The bus driver took a diversion to a local police station at which point they left the bus and ran off.


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## cherrypie (Dec 15, 2011)

One young man with minor injuries who is going to press charges, a ticket collector who has been suspended and an investment banker, (the Big Man), has gone into hiding.
The young man will also face charges no doubt.
Common sense seems to have evaded this incident.  There must be procedures in place for times like this rather than resorting to violence.


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## imtrying (Dec 15, 2011)

ok, we have more details now, but at the point in time when he was removed from the train, did anyone know if he was suffering from a mental illness??? you just can't judge without knowing facts, and although we know now that he wasn't, he could have. 

Like when hypoing....I'd like to think people wouldn't assume I was drunk and just dismiss me, but actually try to find out. Nothing's black and white. 

Yes, I completely agree that he was out of line and should have been dealt with. Yes I think there was too much force used and just made the guy who removed him look as bad as the guy he was removing IMO. Now we'll end up with people thinking if they see someone misbehaving they can just take things upon themselves...which will not lead to anything good happening. Please realise, i am in noway condoning his behaviour - it was completely unacceptable.


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## novorapidboi26 (Dec 15, 2011)

Its a tricky one to call unless you were there..............

This particular video is different to the one I seen, or at least the one I seen didnt have a sympathetic undertone.......

The students immature response to the situation didn't help much, and if I was the conductor it would not be hard to confirm his alleged story of 2 single fares with time and dates etc.......

Being literally thrown off was a bit much, but he then proceeded to get back on as opposed to saying......'can I get my belongings......'

It was his own fault because of his reaction, if he stayed calm, other passengers would not have got wound up, the train would leave and the police would meet the train at the next stop........


But who knows what I would have done......


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## Nyadach (Dec 15, 2011)

Personally think it served him right. Spent a week once on a small commute by train and every trip people tried to get away without tickets. And the poor conductor only doing there job got no end of abuse...really felt sorry for her with the jackasses who whine because they have to pay like everyone else!


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## FM001 (Dec 21, 2011)

The big fella who ejected the lad is now being charged for assault http://news.stv.tv/scotland/west-ce...orted-after-passenger-was-removed-from-train/  bet he wishes he had stayed in his seat


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## Copepod (Dec 21, 2011)

Will be interesting to hear the outcome of the court case - until then, I'm saying nothing.


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## Ellie Jones (Dec 21, 2011)

Sad day if the bloke is found guilty..

Strange though last Thursday a conductor on kent train heading into London, was stabbed in the back twice by two youth's similar age who were trying to attempt to fair dodge, and he asked them to leave the train


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## Northerner (Dec 21, 2011)

I think this thread only has a tenuous link to diabetes, so is better placed here in off the subject.


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