# DiABETES UK Nutritional Guidelines



## mcdonagh47

the revised Guidelines on Nutrition are in lin k below. They are not as dire as some people make out .... can this be a sticky somewhere Admin /

https://diabetes-resources-producti...utritional-guidelines-2013-amendment-0413.pdf


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## trophywench

Thanks McD - I've enjoyed reading that, and there's nothing there that jumps out and bites me to say I disagree with it - which makes a jolly nice change.

They actually acknowledge 'lower' carb may be no bad thing, although they don't actually say it's the best thing since insulin.  But then neither do most of us, because what suits one doesn't suit another.

I do wish though they would tell me what a Meditteranean diet actually consists of - in Crete for instance there are a lot of spuds, oodles of olive oil, courgettes, tomatoes and pork washed down with some rather decent red wine, plus regular very very strong and sweet black coffee, quite a lot of Raki and all accompanied by a constant stream of chainsmoked Greek equivalent of Capstan Full Strength fags.  Some lamb, in fact quite a bit of it on menus - yet you never see any sheep.  Only goats ....... LOL  Oh I forgot the yoghurt and the honey!


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## MeganN

I agree. We have Greek family. The amount of sweet treats in their daily diet is high too. 
I don't recommend going and eating at a Greek wedding unless someone Greek is able to tell you the carb count


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## DeusXM

The problem is these guidelines are flawed and are also not shared with patients. Have you see what Diabetes UK puts on their website? There is still a one-size-fits-all attitude that still calls for starchy carbs to form the basis of meals and recommendations to cut fat as much as possible.

Look, I've deconstructed these guidelines before. 




> intervention studies have failed to show any association between the type and amount of fat in meals and post-prandial glucose response


In other words, fat has NO EFFECT on blood glucose control.




> It is unclear what ideal proportion of macronutrients to recommend for optimal glycaemic control for Type 2 diabetes


...but we'll continue to tell you to base your meals around starchy carbs, despite the fact we honestly don't know if it is a good or bad thing.




> Monounsaturated fat can be substituted for carbohydrate without detrimental effect to either lipids or glycaemic control


...but obviously we won't be recommending you base your food around monosaturated fats because fat is bad, right...even though we know it doesn't actually affect you negatively.




> When protein is substituted for carbohydrate, short-term glycaemic control improves


....and we won't be recommending you eat more protein either because the last thing you want is your glycaemic control to improve.




> A modest reduction in carbohydrate intake is associated with improvements in glycaemic control and low carbohydrate diets can be particularly effective if associated with weight loss.


...but despite this, we'll still be telling you to base your meals around starchy carbs.




> Although the total amount of carbohydrate ingested is the primary
> determinant of post-prandial blood glucose response, there is little evidence to support specific strategies for recommendations about carbohydrate intake in Type 2 diabetes.


...largely because it's so overwhelmingly obvious that the more you have of something that is known to majorly affect your BG, the more it'll affect your BG. I suspect there hasn't been any specific research into whether or not large amounts of rain cause flooding either.




> It has been shown that the main mode of action of low carbohydrate diets is simply a reduction in energy intake due to carbohydrate restriction


So it has nothing to do with glycaemic control then, despite the fact that we already accept that the amount of carb intake is the primary determinant of post-prandial blood glucose response?




> Concern has been expressed about the potential adverse effects of these diets, especially on cardiovascular risk, but there remains no evidence of harm over the short term


So in other words, there's no evidence that they're harmful, yet certainly some evidence that suggests they're beneficial? Under those circumstances, you'd expect someone to do some research or at least maintain an open mind, right?

http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-...o-eating-well/




> 2. Include starchy carbohydrate foods as part of your diet
> 
> 3. Cut down on the fat you eat, particularly saturated fats


Oh! How stupid of me! There was me, reading the actual evidence Diabetes UK presented, saying that reducing your carb intake and replacing it with monounsaturated fats probably helps manage diabetes better, and thinking that meant cutting down on carbs and eating more mono fats would help make diabetes management better. How stupid of me! Why on earth did I not realise what that actually meant was that cutting down on fat and basing my meals on starchy carbs was the right option.

Oh, wait, it's because I can read.

Seriously, you can literally hear whoever drafted this report internally cringing. It's ALMOST as if whoever put together this report 'knew' the right answer or conclusion they were supposed to draw and then found the evidence didn't quite stack up as neatly as they liked. And then decided to write things WITHIN THE SAME REPORT that directly contradicted each other as if that wasn't a problem.




> Small, short term intervention studies investigating the relationship between macronutrients and glycaemic control have reported contradictory results


In other words, the studies we did actually showed our conventional approach was WORSE. Let's just pass that off as 'contradictory' and say they were small, rather than do something like, oh, I don't know, a full proper study that would settle the issue. And then there's all the mealy-mouthed fudging about being aware of carb intake without daring once say, "you know what? Maybe we don't need quite as much bread." There's all these constant references saying that carb reduction and fat intake change 'need more study' despite the fact there seems to have been as much research done into these as the alternatives ie. very little.

And the final bit says it all.




> In terms of dietary strategies for weight loss, encouraging the individual to adopt their diet of choice may well improve outcomes. It is the degree of adherence that will predict outcomes rather than type of dietary strategy [145]. It is intuitive that a diet an individual enjoys and finds acceptable is more likely to succeed


In other words, we don't really have a clue, so you might as well take your pick and accept the consequences.


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## Mark T

Perhaps we should ask Joe from DUK if he knows who is planning to update the website to incorporate these new guidelines


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## trophywench

I think that's a much more more sensible reaction than flying off the handle, really .....

Of course the problem with any report or piece of research is that most people medical or otherwise only take in the headlines and never even read the rest of it properly.

So if you said 

Carbohydrates - an important food source. 

and left it at that, rather than ask how much carb? when? etc - one helluva lot of people will just decide there and then that MORE = BETTER.

Too much blood testing can make you obsessive.

I wouldn't necessarily argue with that as a statement.

But I would ask - how much IS too much? and then ask for justification of the reasons given.

In any case that latter statement gets changed to .... WILL make you obsessive.  But it doesn't say that .......


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## HOBIE

Will have to have a read of this


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## neilblackwood

I've been reading more and more recently about the flaws in current dietary guidelines, the main problem being that not every factor is taken into account and therefore results can be inaccurate. 

For anyone interested in more information, I've posted some information here that I've been collecting over the previous few years, which revolves around the subject of low carb and the problems with current dietary recommendations:

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47980&p=432748#p432748

I'd like to enter a discussion with people on why, when we're supposedly eating all the healthy foods, more and more people are getting metabolic disorders or seeing more issues with their health.


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## Bloden

*Mediterranean diet!*

The (Spanish) Med diet is meat, meat, meat, with a side of meat, and lots of chips! My neighbours' kids looked like they were going to cry when they all came round for Xmas dinner - vegetables! Do we have to eat them, mum?


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## Bloden

*Michael Pollan has the answers*

Read M Pollan's "In Defense of Food". He states that, in the States (not sure about UK), many food additives, E nos, etc. haven't actually been tested to see if they're safe for humans; and recently, one particular additive (can't remember name, sorry) was found to have a significant effect in the human endocrine system. Scary stuff!


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## Copepod

Bloden said:


> The (Spanish) Med diet is meat, meat, meat, with a side of meat, and lots of chips! My neighbours' kids looked like they were going to cry when they all came round for Xmas dinner - vegetables! Do we have to eat them, mum?



I was a marshal on Dragons Back Race in Wales in September 2012. Runners covered 220 miles in 5 daily stages. Trails were not way marked, so runners had to map read over trackless terrain and some tracks. Tents and overnight kit were transported in vehicles and tents erected by marshals. Smaller bags were available to runners at midway support point each day. Runners supplied their own race food, but morning and evening food was supplied by an excellent vegetarian mobile cafe - lots of very tasty porridge, cakes, chilli, curry rice, bread etc. There was a significant contingent from Spain, and as I was the marshal with the best Spanish ability, plus a car that could take 4 passengers, I was closely involved with them, especially when they were unable to do the whole day, so we dropped them at support point to run to overnight camp site. They brought their own jamon (ham) and salami to supplement the veggie evening meals - and very kindly gave me some delicious samples  One of them runs an online deli shop, so I know where to by good Spanish food, although postage costs mean it's better for me to buy olive oil locally.


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## graj0

mcdonagh47 said:


> They are not as dire as some people make out


The report heading says _Evidence-based nutrition guidelines for the prevention and management of diabetes._

I must be different to everyone that was monitored to produce their "evidence". Sorry for repeating my introduction. I've been type II for 17 years and I decided *NOT* to follow dietary guidelines given by my previous GP and hospital dietitians. I cut out bread/pasta/rice/potato last July. Stopped taking Gliclazide, Januvia and Atorvastatin by November 2013. Yesterday HbA1c 6.4, Tot. Chol. 5.4
Anecdotal? Yes, but I know lots of people with similar results.   

_Weight management should be the primary nutritional strategy in managing
glucose control in Type 2 diabetes for people who are overweight or obese. _
Can't fault that, except Rosiglitazone helped me gain 7st without me changing food intake, drinking habits or exercise. The citilapram prescribed for my anxiety about weight gain didn't help.
• _Regular, moderate physical activity can reduce HbA1c by 0.45 – 0.65 per cent independent of weight loss._ 
Obviously exercise is essential, I used to swim 1km 3-5 times a week and my BG dropped a lot more than 0.65%, shame my weight didn't at that time.
• _Focus should be on total energy intake rather than the source of energy in the diet (macronutrient composition) for optimal glycaemic control._
Focusing on the source, my carb intake, had the desired effect for me. Am I that different?
• _The total amount of carbohydrate consumed is a strong predictor of glycaemic response and monitoring total carbohydrate intake whether by use of exchanges, portions or experience-based estimation, remains a key strategy in achieving glycaemic control._ 
So why not go the whole hog, tell people to reduce their carb intake.
• _Low GI diets may reduce HbA1c up to 0.5 per cent ._ 
By cutting carbs I was able to reduce my HbA1c by so much that I'm only taking metformin and I can still achieve an HbA1c of 6.4.

Still work in progress.


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## Laura davies

This is very interesting i still can't believe I've always been told starchy carbs, now that I am eating less carbs, much more protein and fat i feel better. Woke with a low of 3.5 this morning bit sweaty but ok


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## trophywench

Laura

If this happens again, you will need to change something with your basal.

I can't say what because it could be doseage and it could be timing, and in any event dunno what basal you are on, when you take it or what the rest of the day's results show.

If you see that happening again soon, set an alarm clock for around 3am and see what your BG is doing then.  ie Has it started to drop yet.

Do take care though and if you have a good DSN get onto her asap if it starts to be a prob.


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## Laura davies

Hi Trophywench 

Thank you for that. I am setting my alarm for 3am this morning. I've started this past week to take novo rapid 15 mins before eating, previously i used to eat pretty much straight away but I've read it starts working in your system 15 mins before. Do you do this Trophywench? 

I've cut my carbs a lot maybe my body getting used to it. When I got home from the cinema last night it was 11.45pm and i was hungry so i had 2 of those oat bix cereals with splash of milk took 3 units of novorapid then 20 units of lantus around 12.15am don't know what went wrong


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## trophywench

Well Lantus actually peaks at around 5 hours after injecting Laura, and if that didn't happen to coincide with your BG being high enough to withstand the peak - you would go hypo.  

But what time did you actually go hypo - I dunno when you woke up and found your BG to be low, or when your BG started to reduce leading up to that.

I have no idea either whether you overshot, undershot or correctly shot for the cereal either, not being a mind-reader LOL

No I've never had to inject before eating yet - but it doesn't matter does it? as nobody else in the world is me!

I mean I presume when you injected just before eating at various intervals after eating various meals you kept testing your BG and because you found your BG shot up too high before the Novorapid got there, was why you started jabbing 15 mins before?  Well when you test now at various intervals after eating, has it cured that? 

If you didn't do that testing, why did you change? 

Anyway whatever - if it hasn't cured it, back to the drawing board!

Nobody can really say 'That's the answer and it works for everybody' cos it's a fib.  It most certainly doesn't !


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## trophywench

Interesting.  Are the Government (or anyone else) actually legally liable for giving individuals dietary guidelines should they happen to prove incorrect for that individual? (or group of individuals)

I don't believe they would be.


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## Dave W

It might be an idea to add a caveat, to this advice from DCUK to empass the advice from NICE in 2014

_• Daily consumption of foods fortified with plant sterols or stanols (2-3g /d)

significantly improve total and LDL cholesterol for people with diabetes, irrespective

of statin treatment. (A_

*The NICE – Advice:*

*Do Not Do Recommendation*
Do not advise any of the following to take plant stanols or sterols for the prevention of CVD: -people who are being treated for primary prevention -people who are being treated for secondary prevention -people with CKD -people with type 1 diabetes -people with type 2 diabetes
*Do Not Do Recommendation Details*
Recommendation:
*Do not advise any of the following to take plant stanols or sterols for the prevention of CVD: -people who are being treated for primary prevention -people who are being treated for secondary prevention -people with CKD -people with type 1 diabetes -people with type 2 diabetes*
Interventions:
*plant stanols or sterols
Source guidance details*
Guidance:
*Lipid modification: cardiovascular risk assessment and the modification of blood lipids for the primary and secondary prevention of cardiovascular disease* (CG181)
Published date:
*July 2014 *
Paragraph number:
*1.2.17*
Page number:
*16*


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## phonic2k

What your body needs will be different for everyone, as we are different sizes, age, activity, etc.

It's best to eat to what your body needs on a daily base adjusting for activity levels, ensuring you eat a balanced heathy diet with Protein, Fat and Carbohydrates, 4-5 hours apart. 3 times a day, at the same time, so your body gets used to it. It's never good to snack between meals, so your body can rest and get ready for the next meal.  I would recommend choosing foods in the Low GI  range so it helps your body deal with the meal better.  It also helps to go for a walk to avoid sitting down after eating, if able.

*Sleep:*  Make sure you get a minimum of 7 hours of quality sleep, as just one night of poor sleep can impact insulin sensitivity.
*Water: *Ensure you are drinking enough water to keep you hydrated, as when you're dehydrated, your body produces a hormone called vasopressin.
Vasopressin causes your kidneys to retain water and also prompts your liver to produce blood sugar, which may lead to elevated blood-glucose levels.
Over time, this effect may lead to insulin resistance.

Some little tips, I found very useful to me.


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## RFS

phonic2k said:


> What your body needs will be different for everyone, as we are different sizes, age, activity, etc.
> 
> It's best to eat to what your body needs on a daily base adjusting for activity levels, ensuring you eat a balanced heathy diet with Protein, Fat and Carbohydrates, 4-5 hours apart. 3 times a day, at the same time, so your body gets used to it. It's never good to snack between meals, so your body can rest and get ready for the next meal.  I would recommend choosing foods in the Low GI  range so it helps your body deal with the meal better.  It also helps to go for a walk to avoid sitting down after eating, if able.
> 
> *Sleep:*  Make sure you get a minimum of 7 hours of quality sleep, as just one night of poor sleep can impact insulin sensitivity.
> *Water: *Ensure you are drinking enough water to keep you hydrated, as when you're dehydrated, your body produces a hormone called vasopressin.
> Vasopressin causes your kidneys to retain water and also prompts your liver to produce blood sugar, which may lead to elevated blood-glucose levels.
> Over time, this effect may lead to insulin resistance.
> 
> Some little tips, I found very useful to me.



All good advice. All largely followable when I am not at a tournament. Then... all of your above goes completely out of the window.

I am amazed that in the cadre of regular tennis writers on the tours I seem to be the only one/first having to deal with diabetes on the road. Since my diagnosis the number of colleagues who are fascinated by my freestyle libre and scanning is quite interesting... perhaps some of them are beginning to wonder if it will affect them too.

But it doesn't detract from the fact that almost every month of the year I am away and having to deal with disruption to a healthier routine. Still... where there's a will there's a way, I am not going to stop covering tournaments, so I have to accept that my numbers will go all over the place for a week or so each time I am away, and will have to correct when I am back.


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## Flora Peach

DeusXM said:


> The problem is these guidelines are flawed and are also not shared with patients. Have you see what Diabetes UK puts on their website? There is still a one-size-fits-all attitude that still calls for starchy carbs to form the basis of meals and recommendations to cut fat as much as possible.
> 
> Look, I've deconstructed these guidelines before.
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, fat has NO EFFECT on blood glucose control.
> 
> 
> 
> ...but we'll continue to tell you to base your meals around starchy carbs, despite the fact we honestly don't know if it is a good or bad thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...but obviously we won't be recommending you base your food around monosaturated fats because fat is bad, right...even though we know it doesn't actually affect you negatively.
> 
> 
> 
> ....and we won't be recommending you eat more protein either because the last thing you want is your glycaemic control to improve.
> 
> 
> 
> ...but despite this, we'll still be telling you to base your meals around starchy carbs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...largely because it's so overwhelmingly obvious that the more you have of something that is known to majorly affect your BG, the more it'll affect your BG. I suspect there hasn't been any specific research into whether or not large amounts of rain cause flooding either.
> 
> 
> 
> So it has nothing to do with glycaemic control then, despite the fact that we already accept that the amount of carb intake is the primary determinant of post-prandial blood glucose response?
> 
> 
> 
> So in other words, there's no evidence that they're harmful, yet certainly some evidence that suggests they're beneficial? Under those circumstances, you'd expect someone to do some research or at least maintain an open mind, right?
> 
> http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-...o-eating-well/
> 
> 
> 
> Oh! How stupid of me! There was me, reading the actual evidence Diabetes UK presented, saying that reducing your carb intake and replacing it with monounsaturated fats probably helps manage diabetes better, and thinking that meant cutting down on carbs and eating more mono fats would help make diabetes management better. How stupid of me! Why on earth did I not realise what that actually meant was that cutting down on fat and basing my meals on starchy carbs was the right option.
> 
> Oh, wait, it's because I can read.
> 
> Seriously, you can literally hear whoever drafted this report internally cringing. It's ALMOST as if whoever put together this report 'knew' the right answer or conclusion they were supposed to draw and then found the evidence didn't quite stack up as neatly as they liked. And then decided to write things WITHIN THE SAME REPORT that directly contradicted each other as if that wasn't a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, the studies we did actually showed our conventional approach was WORSE. Let's just pass that off as 'contradictory' and say they were small, rather than do something like, oh, I don't know, a full proper study that would settle the issue. And then there's all the mealy-mouthed fudging about being aware of carb intake without daring once say, "you know what? Maybe we don't need quite as much bread." There's all these constant references saying that carb reduction and fat intake change 'need more study' despite the fact there seems to have been as much research done into these as the alternatives ie. very little.
> 
> And the final bit says it all.
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, we don't really have a clue, so you might as well take your pick and accept the consequences.





DeusXM said:


> The problem is these guidelines are flawed and are also not shared with patients. Have you see what Diabetes UK puts on their website? There is still a one-size-fits-all attitude that still calls for starchy carbs to form the basis of meals and recommendations to cut fat as much as possible.
> 
> Look, I've deconstructed these guidelines before.
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, fat has NO EFFECT on blood glucose control.
> 
> 
> 
> ...but we'll continue to tell you to base your meals around starchy carbs, despite the fact we honestly don't know if it is a good or bad thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...but obviously we won't be recommending you base your food around monosaturated fats because fat is bad, right...even though we know it doesn't actually affect you negatively.
> 
> 
> 
> ....and we won't be recommending you eat more protein either because the last thing you want is your glycaemic control to improve.
> 
> 
> 
> ...but despite this, we'll still be telling you to base your meals around starchy carbs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...largely because it's so overwhelmingly obvious that the more you have of something that is known to majorly affect your BG, the more it'll affect your BG. I suspect there hasn't been any specific research into whether or not large amounts of rain cause flooding either.
> 
> 
> 
> So it has nothing to do with glycaemic control then, despite the fact that we already accept that the amount of carb intake is the primary determinant of post-prandial blood glucose response?
> 
> 
> 
> So in other words, there's no evidence that they're harmful, yet certainly some evidence that suggests they're beneficial? Under those circumstances, you'd expect someone to do some research or at least maintain an open mind, right?
> 
> http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-...o-eating-well/
> 
> 
> 
> Oh! How stupid of me! There was me, reading the actual evidence Diabetes UK presented, saying that reducing your carb intake and replacing it with monounsaturated fats probably helps manage diabetes better, and thinking that meant cutting down on carbs and eating more mono fats would help make diabetes management better. How stupid of me! Why on earth did I not realise what that actually meant was that cutting down on fat and basing my meals on starchy carbs was the right option.
> 
> Oh, wait, it's because I can read.
> 
> Seriously, you can literally hear whoever drafted this report internally cringing. It's ALMOST as if whoever put together this report 'knew' the right answer or conclusion they were supposed to draw and then found the evidence didn't quite stack up as neatly as they liked. And then decided to write things WITHIN THE SAME REPORT that directly contradicted each other as if that wasn't a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, the studies we did actually showed our conventional approach was WORSE. Let's just pass that off as 'contradictory' and say they were small, rather than do something like, oh, I don't know, a full proper study that would settle the issue. And then there's all the mealy-mouthed fudging about being aware of carb intake without daring once say, "you know what? Maybe we don't need quite as much bread." There's all these constant references saying that carb reduction and fat intake change 'need more study' despite the fact there seems to have been as much research done into these as the alternatives ie. very little.
> 
> And the final bit says it all.
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, we don't really have a clue, so you might as well take your pick and accept the consequences.


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## Flora Peach

Thank you so much DeusXM. I haven't laughed so much in a very long time.
Your deductions were brilliant and very pointed.
It looks like it is 'carry on as usual'. Regards.


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## Drummer

So  a low GI diet shows an improvement in Hba1c of half of one percent. 

On LCHF my Hba1c fell from 91 to 41 - so 50 points and as a percentage that is 5000 divided by 91 - which is almost 55 percent, and it seems to indicate that eating low carb is a hundred and ten times more effective - though possibly half of one percent is within the margin of error for the testing.


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## Marianne Rickards

Hi, please can someone advise on how many grams of carbs, fats and protein a diabetic 2 woman should have a day?


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## everydayupsanddowns

Marianne Rickards said:


> Hi, please can someone advise on how many grams of carbs, fats and protein a diabetic 2 woman should have a day?



Unfortunately there is no single answer to that question - it is something you have to work out for yourself, ideally by using a BG meter to see which meals, and more specifically the types and amounts of carbohydrate in different meals result in better blood glucose.

Having said that, from reading the posts by other members here it seems like something between 50 and 100g of carbohydrate per day is likely to be where you end up.

One of the frustrating things is that different carbs behave differently for different people (something complicated to do with the gut biome I think). So one person might be OK with small amounts of bread or potato, while for others those would be a complete disaster.

The only thing you can really do is to use a BG meter to see how you body reacts. This ‘Test Review Adjust’ post is well thought of by members here: http://loraldiabetes.blogspot.com/2006/10/test-review-adjust.html

Fat and protein you can be a little more relaxed about, particularly if concentrating on ‘good’ natural fats (oily fish, olive oil, full fat dairy) rather than highly processed ‘factory made’ foods.


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## Bryan Osborne

Well I think its all smoke and mirrors. TBH I decided to avoid heavy carbs altogether. ANYTHING that grows below ground, wheat and rice. I will admit my fat intake is way higher but considering March Last Year my HBA1c was 99 and today its 38. Cholesterol is now 4.4 BP 125/70 pulse 54 at rest and I am 5olb lighter, I don't think a more fats bias diet is doing me much harm!


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## Drummer

To go from fully diabetic to normal took me 6 months at no more than 50 gm of carbs a day.
I am now setting a maximum of 40 gm of carbs in the hope of losing more body fat -  contrary to the established mantra I lost weight after normalizing my blood glucose and Hba1c. I am eating the same foods as when doing Atkins to control my weight, and in the same amounts, though with tighter control as there is more at stake.


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## Vince_UK

I can only speak from my own experience
Diagnosed september 28th 2017 HbA1c 78 put on Metformin
Immediately put myself on a Low Carb/ High Fat/ High Protein diet
1st review at 3 months Jan 3rd 2018
HbA1c 33, wweight loss in  kilos down from 98 to 82
Cholestrol 3 BP normal.
Taken off Metformin
2nd review Juy 3rd
HbA1c 36
No Metformin
 Weight 78.8 Kilos
CH stable, BO normal
I eat like a horse
LCHF Worked for me and ther eis no arguement about that .


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## SkinnyLiz

mcdonagh47 said:


> the revised Guidelines on Nutrition are in lin k below. They are not as dire as some people make out .... can this be a sticky somewhere Admin /
> 
> https://diabetes-resources-producti...utritional-guidelines-2013-amendment-0413.pdf


re alcohol "58% risk reduction associated with 15-29.9g per day (1.5-3uk units) [57]"   
can this be true? am I not only allowed, but encouraged to drink wine?


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## Dave W

Just read the DUK post about *"What is a Healthy Balanced Diet for Diabetics"* DUK still seem to be stuck with UKs NICE/ Healthy Eating advice despite recent and older research evidence. They recomend 'a banana in in a child's lunch box, fresh dates, low fat yoghurt and canned fruit in juice. I could go on and include the other carby/sugary suggestions but I won't.
Now how on earth anyone can suggest fresh dates at 68gm/100g is a healthy diet for for a diabetic is beyond me, as is including a banana @ 20g/100g as a snack for children not to mention the massive amount of carbs/sugars in canned fruit in juice. And then there's' low fat' yoghurt too which is usually high in carbs. Could go on, but won't.
Now if DUK really want to promote a "Healthy Balanced Diet", please include the research evidence your diet is based upon and sponsors for any assocated research.


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## travellor

Dave W said:


> ...................and sponsors for any assocated research.




Conspiracy theory?


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## Diabetes UK

It is still important to include fruit in the diet as it contains important nutrients. But the focus should be around portion sizes and frequency rather than removing it from the diet completely, or making healthy swaps, so having tinned fruit in juice, rather than in syrup or having yoghurt that is low in fat.

@Dave W , you are referencing the page, 'What is a healthy, balanced diet for diabetes?' 

All our dietary advice follows our 'Evidence-based nutritional guidelines' which are referenced at the beginning of this thread.   All research and evidence has been cited in the document in 'References' from pages 40-56.

Children who use insulin to control type 1 diabetes will have different dietary needs to an adult living with type 2 diabetes. Therefore, children are not included in the scope of these guidelines. The International Society of Paediatric and Adolescent Diabetes (ISPAD) clinical practice guidelines have been adopted by us for dietary guidance for children. More details on this page of our website.

https://www.diabetes.org.uk/profess...for-the-prevention-and-management-of-diabetes


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## Matt Cycle

Dave W said:


> Just read the DUK post about *"What is a Healthy Balanced Diet for Diabetics"* DUK still seem to be stuck with UKs NICE/ Healthy Eating advice despite recent and older research evidence. They recomend 'a banana in in a child's lunch box, fresh dates, low fat yoghurt and canned fruit in juice. I could go on and include the other carby/sugary suggestions but I won't.
> Now how on earth anyone can suggest fresh dates at 68gm/100g is a healthy diet for for a diabetic is beyond me, as is including a banana @ 20g/100g as a snack for children not to mention the massive amount of carbs/sugars in canned fruit in juice. And then there's' low fat' yoghurt too which is usually high in carbs. Could go on, but won't.



I eat bananas.  Nowt wrong with them and no, I'm not sponsored by Fyffes.  You can't compare a Type 1, particularly a child, with a Type 2.  Different conditions entirely.


----------



## Bronco Billy

In addition to what @Hannah DUK said, I would also say that a child’s body is still developing. It needs a balanced diet which includes fruit and veg in good quantity. For the 98% of children with diabetes who have type 1, carbs can be dealt with by administering the correct amount of insulin. It isn’t necessarily about the amount of carbs consumed, but how long the carbs take to act. Technology allows us to plan accordingly. For example, pasta will hide in the body for hours, then BOOM! A child with an insulin pump can bolus so that the insulin is timed to be delivered when the carbs are likely to hit.

A banana containing 20g of carb is a perfect snack for a T1 child who walks home from school. My daughter has suffered hypos on the way home despite eating an 18g carb cereal bar before leaving school. Low fat yogurt is perfectly ok. The low fat content allows the insulin to work more effectively. 

While a low carb diet may work for many type 2 adults on this forum, it really wouldn’t work for a child with T1 due to the nutritional needs of their body. As long as they are not eating too much unhealthy food, the amount of carbs in their diet is not something to worry about as long as it is reasonable.


----------



## Dave W

Yes indeed @Matt Cycle and @Bronco Billy, I am very aware that there is a vast difference between what someone with T1 and can or ought  to eat, though as a T2 I'm not up on the intricate details of managing T1.
What rather niggled me with the article I commented on was that it was titled - _What is a heathy balanced diet for diabetics_ and there was no differentiation (as far as I could see) between T1 or T2. I read it as a one size fits all dietary guide. Though I may perhaps have missed something.
 I have a very good friend who was diagnosed T1 just a couple of weeks before my T2 diagnosis and he reckons he's more fortunate than I am as he can eat more or less what he wants and injects to compensate, though personally I'd rather not jab myself anymore than I already do when checking my BG! 
I do know that for me at least, consumption of carbohydrates elevates my BG and that to consume carbs to the relative percentage of my total diet as is currently recommended in NHS/NICE advice results in a significantly higher Hba1c. But that's just me; we all react differently.
I'm well aware of the importance of including fruit in a diet @Hannah DUK, but I'm also aware that fruit can range considerably in 'carb/sugar' content and that anyone with T2 needs to be a bit careful with what and how much they consume and there were no caveats regarding this. Similarly no caveats regarding low fat yoghurts as many low fat yoghurts have sugars added to enhance taste.


----------



## Bronco Billy

I understand @Dave W, but I was responding to your comments about what should be in a child’s lunch box and what constitutes a healthy snack. As 96% of children with diabetes have type 1, I felt it was worth clarifying in case any parents were following the thread.


----------



## Eddy Edson

From digging around in various international dietary guidelines, there's obviously a lot of commonality & one focus is on whole grains: increase these in preference to white bread, pasta etc for all sorts of health benefits, supported by a wealth of evidence.

But I don't think it's straightforward to square this with the individual requirements of diabetics.  In terms of BG control, I think it's simply a tactical error to make claims like eg "lower GI so less spiking".  People's actual experience, including mine and plenty of others' I've seen, can run counter to this, impacting the credibility of the whole guideline framework.

This is just one study, but a really interesting one IMO, from Feb this year: http://austinpublishinggroup.com/clinical-medicine/download.php?file=fulltext/ajcm-v5-id1031.pdf 

Looking at postprandial glucose, GI and other factors for a range of whole grain breads.



- A really wide range of individual responses
- At a grouped level, no statistically significant difference in glycemic response between white bread and many whole grain breads.
- The very wide range of GI's calculated amongst different individuals for each type of bread seems to make the notion of a single GI number for any bread quite misleading.
- Overall, the proportion of fibre and protein seems to make the biggest difference for glycemic response.
- No evidence found for any significant impact from differences in degrees of milling fineness. In contrast to the coarser = better recommendation you often see.
- Adding oil-seeds appears to achieve nothing. Again, in contrast to comments you often see.

In the end, you can't get away from the need to individualise, which obviously makes writing useful guidelines difficult!

_Whole-grain products are reported to have several positive effects on human health [30], including reducing coronary heart disease [26,31,32], T2DM [25,27,33] and metabolic syndrome [7,34].
This study reports large variations in the impacts of various wholegrain-based breads on relevant T2DM-related parameters and indicates complex nutritional relationships and individual response
characteristics. Therefore, it is difficult to provide recommendations for effective food-based dietary guidance for patients. In general,bread with reduced carbohydrate content in combination with high fiber, protein and fat content seems to be preferable, but dietary optimization for each individual is necessary._


----------



## Hamrag

DeusXM said:


> The problem is these guidelines are flawed and are also not shared with patients. Have you see what Diabetes UK puts on their website? There is still a one-size-fits-all attitude that still calls for starchy carbs to form the basis of meals and recommendations to cut fat as much as possible.
> 
> Look, I've deconstructed these guidelines before.
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, fat has NO EFFECT on blood glucose control.
> 
> 
> 
> ...but we'll continue to tell you to base your meals around starchy carbs, despite the fact we honestly don't know if it is a good or bad thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...but obviously we won't be recommending you base your food around monosaturated fats because fat is bad, right...even though we know it doesn't actually affect you negatively.
> 
> 
> 
> ....and we won't be recommending you eat more protein either because the last thing you want is your glycaemic control to improve.
> 
> 
> 
> ...but despite this, we'll still be telling you to base your meals around starchy carbs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...largely because it's so overwhelmingly obvious that the more you have of something that is known to majorly affect your BG, the more it'll affect your BG. I suspect there hasn't been any specific research into whether or not large amounts of rain cause flooding either.
> 
> 
> 
> So it has nothing to do with glycaemic control then, despite the fact that we already accept that the amount of carb intake is the primary determinant of post-prandial blood glucose response?
> 
> 
> 
> So in other words, there's no evidence that they're harmful, yet certainly some evidence that suggests they're beneficial? Under those circumstances, you'd expect someone to do some research or at least maintain an open mind, right?
> 
> http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-...o-eating-well/
> 
> 
> 
> Oh! How stupid of me! There was me, reading the actual evidence Diabetes UK presented, saying that reducing your carb intake and replacing it with monounsaturated fats probably helps manage diabetes better, and thinking that meant cutting down on carbs and eating more mono fats would help make diabetes management better. How stupid of me! Why on earth did I not realise what that actually meant was that cutting down on fat and basing my meals on starchy carbs was the right option.
> 
> Oh, wait, it's because I can read.
> 
> Seriously, you can literally hear whoever drafted this report internally cringing. It's ALMOST as if whoever put together this report 'knew' the right answer or conclusion they were supposed to draw and then found the evidence didn't quite stack up as neatly as they liked. And then decided to write things WITHIN THE SAME REPORT that directly contradicted each other as if that wasn't a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, the studies we did actually showed our conventional approach was WORSE. Let's just pass that off as 'contradictory' and say they were small, rather than do something like, oh, I don't know, a full proper study that would settle the issue. And then there's all the mealy-mouthed fudging about being aware of carb intake without daring once say, "you know what? Maybe we don't need quite as much bread." There's all these constant references saying that carb reduction and fat intake change 'need more study' despite the fact there seems to have been as much research done into these as the alternatives ie. very little.
> 
> And the final bit says it all.
> 
> 
> 
> In other words, we don't really have a clue, so you might as well take your pick and accept the consequences.


Just signpost people to Diabetes.co.uk if you want a sensible and effective way of managing T2 Diabetes!!


----------



## travellor

Hamrag said:


> Just signpost people to Diabetes.co.uk if you want a sensible and effective way of managing T2 Diabetes!!



Well, a seriously final "one size fits all" diet, an offer to buy the book, and a serious slanging match if you suggest its not the only approach seems to the the way on there.
Here is a far better ideology.


----------



## HOBIE

Low Carb helps a lot


----------



## Dave W

HOBIE said:


> Low Carb helps a lot


Certainly helped me as a T2. Following diagnosis I based my diet largely on the NHS/NICE/DUK recommendations, but after about four months reading and learning I adopted Low Carb and my blood glucose levels improved considerably. Testing helped me discover just what and how specific foods affected *me* (as opposed to anyone else).


----------



## travellor

I'd rather go for reversing type 2, but I do believe low carb for life can be a possible alternative to some.


----------



## HOBIE

Dave W said:


> Certainly helped me as a T2. Following diagnosis I based my diet largely on the NHS/NICE/DUK recommendations, but after about four months reading and learning I adopted Low Carb and my blood glucose levels improved considerably. Testing helped me discover just what and how specific foods affected *me* (as opposed to anyone else).


Good for you Dave W. I bet you feel good  (&you are allowed to)


----------



## travellor

HOBIE said:


> Good for you Dave W. I bet you feel good  (&you are allowed to)


Low carb does indeed work for some.

But many more options work too.
That's the beauty of this site.
Everyone is allowed to.
Direct everyone you know to Diabetes.org.uk
No matter how you fix your diabetes, every one is welcome to have a voice.


----------



## Dave W

HOBIE said:


> Good for you Dave W. I bet you feel good  (&you are allowed to)


LC certainly worked and I was in remission, but HbA1c has risen over past 6 months and have shed a lot of weight over a few years (none left to shed!). Got a GAD test and c-peptide with my HbA1C next month as suspect I may be T1. Ought to have been tested for T1 at initial diagnosis three years ago as I've got some of the symptoms that should have prompted tests!


----------



## HOBIE

Good luck Dave


----------



## travellor

Dave W said:


> LC certainly worked and I was in remission, but HbA1c has risen over past 6 months and have shed a lot of weight over a few years (none left to shed!). Got a GAD test and c-peptide with my HbA1C next month as suspect I may be T1. Ought to have been tested for T1 at initial diagnosis three years ago as I've got some of the symptoms that should have prompted tests!



Did bouncing straight to low carb hide it?


----------



## Dave W

travellor said:


> Did bouncing straight to low carb hide it?


Initial HbA1c was >100, meds (gliclazide) brought it down and then adopting LC reduced it further to well below 50, so diet did have a significant impact. The thing that annoys me is that according to local NHS protocol, the symptoms I presented with, i.e. osmotic and weight loss ought to have resulted in tests for T1. I do think that my GP did think I was progressing fine asT2, but it took my own research to jog her into questioning the intial diagnosis by another GP.
I'm in no way anxious to be diagnosed as T1, but rather suspect I may be!


----------



## Northerner

Dave W said:


> LC certainly worked and I was in remission, but HbA1c has risen over past 6 months and have shed a lot of weight over a few years (none left to shed!). Got a GAD test and c-peptide with my HbA1C next month as suspect I may be T1. Ought to have been tested for T1 at initial diagnosis three years ago as I've got some of the symptoms that should have prompted tests!


Hope you can get a firm diagnosis Dave :} There is a huge variance in the manifestations of our diabetes - I know this from my own experiences


----------



## grovesy

There seems to be more and more research coming out on the wide variations and sub sets of types requiring different   treatments. Though I suspect we are some way off this been recognised widely as the variations seem to be tested by genetics.


----------



## Hamrag

travellor said:


> Well, a seriously final "one size fits all" diet, an offer to buy the book, and a serious slanging match if you suggest its not the only approach seems to the the way on there.
> Here is a far better ideology.


So many contradictions regarding Dietary advice (as you yourself have pointed out) on this site! at least Diabetes.co.uk are clear on Dietary advice.


----------



## Diabetes UK

Thanks for your comments Hamrag. We recognize individual differences in this forum. Everyone needs to find a diet and/or medication regime that works for them but experience of our members will show that there is no single solution. We aim to support everyone in exploring these options to find the best approach for them.  It's great that you have found a successful diet and I am sure that your experience will be valuable to many of our members. Diabetes is variable.There will usually be someone who will benefit from your experience, but it may not apply to everyone.


----------



## travellor

Hamrag said:


> So many contradictions regarding Dietary advice (as you yourself have pointed out) on this site! at least Diabetes.co.uk are clear on Dietary advice.



Very clear 
Over opinioned zealots maybe, but yes, certainly they are clear there can only be one opinion, and everything else should be ignored regardless of benefit to an individual perspective.
As I say, totally unlike this site fortunately, where it's recognised different treatments suit different people.


----------



## Hamrag

Hannah DUK said:


> Thanks for your comments Hamrag. We recognize individual differences in this forum. Everyone needs to find a diet and/or medication regime that works for them but experience of our members will show that there is no single solution. We aim to support everyone in exploring these options to find the best approach for them.  It's great that you have found a successful diet and I am sure that your experience will be valuable to many of our members. Diabetes is variable.There will usually be someone who will benefit from your experience, but it may not apply to everyone.


Thank you, I am interested to learn about other diets (as apposed to Low Carb Lifestyle),and Medication regimes, that work for other people with T2 Please post links etc.


----------



## Hamrag

travellor said:


> Very clear
> Over opinioned zealots maybe, but yes, certainly they are clear there can only be one opinion, and everything else should be ignored regardless of benefit to an individual perspective.
> As I say, totally unlike this site fortunately, where it's recognised different treatments suit different people.


Have you tried the Low Carb Lifestyle? what is your approach? I am Interested to know why you are so anti Low Carb!


----------



## Eddy Edson

Hamrag said:


> Thank you, I am interested to learn about other diets (as apposed to Low Carb Lifestyle),and Medication regimes, that work for other people with T2 Please post links etc.



Depends what you mean by LC. I eat about 150g carbs daily, of which 30g+ fibre, which for me makes a big diff. Since upping my carbs from < 100g (and not enough fibre), my BG usually averages < 6 mmol/L daily, and the pesky Dawn Phenomenon seems to have gone away. A bit of exercise but nothing special.  Anyway, works for me, for the moment.


----------



## Matt Cycle

Dave W said:


> Following diagnosis I based my diet largely on the NHS/NICE/DUK recommendations



What was your diet like before diagnosis Dave?


----------



## grovesy

I have been on this journey over 15 years. 
I have found that over the years I have to make changes as things don't always stay the same, and that you have to find what works for you and can maintain long term and most of the time.


----------



## Ljc

Hamrag said:


> Thank you, I am interested to learn about other diets (as apposed to Low Carb Lifestyle),and Medication regimes, that work for other people with T2 Please post links etc.


@Hamrag, A few people on here follow Keto diets 
Personally I try to keep below 100 carbs a day and normal fats , I find this works best for me as I am less likely to fall too badly off the wagon, though it doesn’t always work 
Some go very low carb .
Basically we do what works best for us individually and gently nudge/suggest to newbies a different way of doing things compaired to that Eatwell (or whatever it’s called now) plate.


----------



## travellor

Hamrag said:


> Have you tried the Low Carb Lifestyle? what is your approach? I am Interested to know why you are so anti Low Carb!



I'm not anti low carb at all.
I'm anti zealot.
You need to accept there is more than one way, and consider they work for other people.
Not everything is simple black and white.


----------



## Dave W

Matt Cycle said:


> What was your diet like before diagnosis Dave?


I'd say it was pretty 'normal' Matt, though I had developed a lust for sweet things (two Frys Choc creams sometimes!). Don't think I ate too many carby foods as I don't like pasta and I think the % carbs in my diet were probably lower than those in the Eatwell Guide. As far as green veg goes, I ate quite a lot as we grow a lot.
Anyway, I think my dietary foibles, do's and dont's, may soon be resolved as almost 3 years after being diagnosed T2, there's a strong possibilty I'm T1 and will be having GAD and c-peptide tests along with HbA1c next month.


----------



## Northerner

Dave W said:


> I'd say it was pretty 'normal' Matt, though I had developed a lust for sweet things (two Frys Choc creams sometimes!). Don't think I ate too many carby foods as I don't like pasta and I think the % carbs in my diet were probably lower than those in the Eatwell Guide. As far as green veg goes, I ate quite a lot as we grow a lot.
> Anyway, I think my dietary foibles, do's and dont's, may soon be resolved as almost 3 years after being diagnosed T2, there's a strong possibilty I'm T1 and will be having GAD and c-peptide tests along with HbA1c next month.


Good luck Dave


----------



## Hamrag

travellor said:


> I'm not anti low carb at all.
> I'm anti zealot.
> You need to accept there is more than one way, and consider they work for other people.
> Not everything is simple black and white.


And that's fine, and I would not push LCHF as the only way to go. I accept that people can make choices, but those choices need to be informed.  I went down the road of trusting medical staff when they told me the condition (T2) was a progressive condition and I was given ever increasing doses of medication to control my condition! my weight ballooned and I became very sick and was threatened with Insulin! The 'Eat-well' plate!! was my downfall. LCHF my saviour. So all I am saying for many with T2 this has been a revelation, and people need to make this choice if it suits them but people need to be informed.


----------



## travellor

Hamrag said:


> And that's fine, and I would not push LCHF as the only way to go. I accept that people can make choices, but those choices need to be informed.  I went down the road of trusting medical staff when they told me the condition (T2) was a progressive condition and I was given ever increasing doses of medication to control my condition! my weight ballooned and I became very sick and was threatened with Insulin! The 'Eat-well' plate!! was my downfall. LCHF my saviour. So all I am saying for many with T2 this has been a revelation, and people need to make this choice if it suits them but people need to be informed.



I entirely agree.
Informing people  is something this site does very very well.
Leaving them to make informed choices as adults is something this site does too.


----------



## Matt Cycle

Dave W said:


> I'd say it was pretty 'normal' Matt, though I had developed a lust for sweet things (two Frys Choc creams sometimes!). Don't think I ate too many carby foods as I don't like pasta and I think the % carbs in my diet were probably lower than those in the Eatwell Guide. As far as green veg goes, I ate quite a lot as we grow a lot.
> Anyway, I think my dietary foibles, do's and dont's, may soon be resolved as almost 3 years after being diagnosed T2, there's a strong possibilty I'm T1 and will be having GAD and c-peptide tests along with HbA1c next month.



That's good.  At least you'll get a definite answer one way or the other.


----------



## Hamrag

travellor said:


> I entirely agree.
> Informing people  is something this site does very very well.
> Leaving them to make informed choices as adults is something this site does too.


Unfortunately and this is from 40 years experience working as a registered nurse, I have found that People respond more positively when Directed! Making the right informed choices can be difficult for people when faced with often conflicting information! For 40 years or more we have been wrongly  Directed (not informed) to eat Low Fat, and increase our Carbs! and the Supermarket shelves are testament to this. Which has resulted in an Increasingly overweight sick world. Given the choice to carry on eating the Food we have been brainwashed into eating rather than making more radical changes to our diet, People will opt for the easy option and maybe only make a few tweaks. And so the sickness goes on.


----------



## Ljc

With me if I am told you must, then I probably won’t , I can be my own worst enemy at times but thats just the way I am. however if I things are explained to me and I am satisfied with the answers and I trust the medic/nurse etc then I will (I must be a docs worst nightmare)
At the time of my dx the area where I lived It was the norm to be referred to the diabetic clinic at St George’s hospital. the staff there were brilliant, though they had started advocating low fat they explained carbs were the enemy and much much more , I was also provided with a meter and 50 test strips on repeat prescription. What does the nhs expect if they no longer provide those who really want to get to grips with their diabetes, the very tools that will help them do so
I will never tell a person they must do LCHF  I will suggest and explain,  also it is not the only way and it’s really their choice .


----------



## travellor

Hamrag said:


> Unfortunately and this is from 40 years experience working as a registered nurse, I have found that People respond more positively when Directed! Making the right informed choices can be difficult for people when faced with often conflicting information! For 40 years or more we have been wrongly  Directed (not informed) to eat Low Fat, and increase our Carbs! and the Supermarket shelves are testament to this. Which has resulted in an Increasingly overweight sick world. Given the choice to carry on eating the Food we have been brainwashed into eating rather than making more radical changes to our diet, People will opt for the easy option and maybe only make a few tweaks. And so the sickness goes on.



So, as a nurse, what you are saying is its ok to continue the "one size fits all" NHS approach, there is nothing wrong with the attitude, but you are just directing everyone to eat to your personal preference, instead, which you believe will be the best choice for every diabetic regardless of their circumstances?
And this is supported by the other site?

Personally, and as this site realises, people are not machines to churn through the process, they are different, and they are also intelligent, so simply being told they are wrong and that now a single new diet will offer the only way to be able to eat must be obeyed, and that nothing else should be mentioned in case it confuses them as they wouldn't be able to understand the about diets anyway doesn't really work for me.

I prefer free discussion, and being treated as intelligent enough to decide for myself, from all the options.

Full marks to this site for encouraging that discussion


----------



## Bronco Billy

“People respond more positively when directed!”? Forgive me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you are in favour of dictating to people what they should or shouldn’t do! If this forum tells us anything, it’s that there is no single solution to any aspect of dealing with diabetes. It’s about each individual finding what works for them under the circumstances they face. I would argue that the increase in overweight people is as much due to more sedentary lifestyles and too much consumption of certain types of food, rather than the amount of carbs in the food itself.


----------



## travellor

Bronco Billy said:


> “People respond more positively when directed!”? Forgive me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you are in favour of dictating to people what they should or shouldn’t do! If this forum tells us anything, it’s that there is no single solution to any aspect of dealing with diabetes. It’s about each individual finding what works for them under the circumstances they face. I would argue that the increase in overweight people is as much due to more sedentary lifestyles and too much consumption of certain types of food, rather than the amount of carbs in the food itself.



Sadly, it seems a lot of the appeal of the sell on LCHF  is that you can still eat as much as you want, and that no exercise is a good thing.
It may be a thing that sounds good, but to me, eating as much as I want, with a sedentary lifestyle didn't work.
I needed a lifestyle change, not the same as usual.


----------



## Dave W

travellor said:


> Sadly, it seems a lot of the appeal of the sell on LCHF  is that you can still eat as much as you want, and that no exercise is a good thing.
> It may be a thing that sounds good, but to me, eating as much as I want, with a sedentary lifestyle didn't work.
> I needed a lifestyle change, not the same as usual.


Don't know where on earth you got the idea that you can eat as much as you want with LCHF. As far as I've gleaned much depends on how much of WHAT you eat figures in the equation.
As far as exercise goes, it's a very good thing indeed and has an impact on health, but to re-quote a very common statement - 'you can't outrun a bad diet.'
If eating as much as you want with a sedentary lifestyle hasn't worked for you, it's perhaps worth thinking about what you ate and maybe getting a little bit more active.


----------



## Eddy Edson

Bronco Billy said:


> I would argue that the increase in overweight people is as much due to more sedentary lifestyles and too much consumption of certain types of food, rather than the amount of carbs in the food itself.



I suspect that it has mostly to do with simply an increase in calories.


----------



## travellor

Dave W said:


> Don't know where on earth you got the idea that you can eat as much as you want with LCHF. As far as I've gleaned much depends on how much of WHAT you eat figures in the equation.
> As far as exercise goes, it's a very good thing indeed and has an impact on health, but to re-quote a very common statement - 'you can't outrun a bad diet.'
> If eating as much as you want with a sedentary lifestyle hasn't worked for you, it's perhaps worth thinking about what you ate and maybe getting a little bit more active.



Very true. It appears no matter what you eat, you need to limit calories.
And being active certainly needs to be in there too.


----------



## chaoticcar

travellor said:


> Very true. It appears no matter what you eat, you need to limit calories.
> And being active certainly needs to be in there too.


One size certainly doesn't fit all .I need as many calories as I can get but need to limit my carbs to maintain my BGs and gain weight 
   Carol


----------



## travellor

chaoticcar said:


> One size certainly doesn't fit all .I need as many calories as I can get but need to limit my carbs to maintain my BGs and gain weight
> Carol



I found over 3000 or 4000 calories a day made me gain weight!


----------



## Hamrag

Well a lively debate ensues! Some interesting points. OK Personally I agree that I need to be mindful of the quantity of food I consume, but this is largely taken care of by the High fat in my diet (satiety) keeps me feeling full. therefore my calorie intake on average is around 2200 and my Calorie expenditure nearly always exceeds!  The low Carb below 50g daily keeps my BG Levels in check Hba1c 39. I exercise daily between 4-7 mile walk, which helps with BG Levels and Insulin resistance. All of that been said I am aware that there are many people due to their personal circumstances, eg, Other health/ genetic conditions, Physical Disability, Dietary/ religious beliefs, that need to find other ways of approaching their Diabetic control, and I never said that LCHF WAS THE ONLY WAY TO GO! However no one has yet shown me any other way that is as effective!?


----------



## Hamrag

Bronco Billy said:


> “People respond more positively when directed!”? Forgive me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like you are in favour of dictating to people what they should or shouldn’t do! If this forum tells us anything, it’s that there is no single solution to any aspect of dealing with diabetes. It’s about each individual finding what works for them under the circumstances they face. I would argue that the increase in overweight people is as much due to more sedentary lifestyles and too much consumption of certain types of food, rather than the amount of carbs in the food itself.


None of us can avoid Carbs altogether, however the "Types of foods" that cause Obesity and are mostly responsible for the rapid increase in T2 Diabetes are those foods heavily laden with refined Carbs, Sugar and High Fructose corn syrup,(highly processed foods) all of which anyone T2, or not should avoid like the plague! So finding what works for individuals needs to be to cut out all of this as a starting point. Look at what is healthy, eat to your meter, and help to bring your BG Down. For some that might mean cutting all starchy veg Bread Pasta and rice. For others that might just mean reducing portions of starchy veg Bread etc . But at the end of the day, whatever else people do to manage their T2 This needs to be the starting point.


----------



## Hamrag

travellor said:


> Sadly, it seems a lot of the appeal of the sell on LCHF  is that you can still eat as much as you want, and that no exercise is a good thing.
> It may be a thing that sounds good, but to me, eating as much as I want, with a sedentary lifestyle didn't work.
> I needed a lifestyle change, not the same as usual.


Not true! LCHF Lifestyle is not about "eat as much as you want." Calories in and out, as a way of controlling diet is secondary to Eating a higher proportion of Good Fats which will keep you fuller longer. This way the calorie balance will take care of itself. Exercise is regularly cited by Diabetes.co.uk and encouraged as away of improving overall health and reducing Insulin resistance.


----------



## Hamrag

Hannah DUK said:


> It is still important to include fruit in the diet as it contains important nutrients. But the focus should be around portion sizes and frequency rather than removing it from the diet completely, or making healthy swaps, so having tinned fruit in juice, rather than in syrup or having yoghurt that is low in fat.
> 
> @Dave W , you are referencing the page, 'What is a healthy, balanced diet for diabetes?'
> 
> All our dietary advice follows our 'Evidence-based nutritional guidelines' which are referenced at the beginning of this thread.   All research and evidence has been cited in the document in 'References' from pages 40-56.
> 
> Children who use insulin to control type 1 diabetes will have different dietary needs to an adult living with type 2 diabetes. Therefore, children are not included in the scope of these guidelines. The International Society of Paediatric and Adolescent Diabetes (ISPAD) clinical practice guidelines have been adopted by us for dietary guidance for children. More details on this page of our website.
> 
> https://www.diabetes.org.uk/profess...for-the-prevention-and-management-of-diabetes


However the Guidelines "What is a healthy balanced diet for diabetes" does not differentiate between T1 and T2 it seems to assume the same diet for both conditions! I am T2 and if I ate half of what is recommended here I would be very sick!!!


----------



## Ditto

> However no one has yet shown me any other way that is as effective!?


I agree with this. I'm re-starting Atkins today, please God I can keep to it because at the minute I'm on the road to ruin.


----------



## Bronco Billy

Hamrag said:


> None of us can avoid Carbs altogether, however the "Types of foods" that cause Obesity and are mostly responsible for the rapid increase in T2 Diabetes are those foods heavily laden with refined Carbs, Sugar and High Fructose corn syrup,(highly processed foods) all of which anyone T2, or not should avoid like the plague! So finding what works for individuals needs to be to cut out all of this as a starting point. Look at what is healthy, eat to your meter, and help to bring your BG Down. For some that might mean cutting all starchy veg Bread Pasta and rice. For others that might just mean reducing portions of starchy veg Bread etc . But at the end of the day, whatever else people do to manage their T2 This needs to be the starting point.





There is no starting point for anyone. A newly diagnosed type 2 will need to experiment a bit to understand how to eat to their meter. Take my brother-in-law, for example, although he doesn’t have any form of diabetes. He is a gardener for the National Trust. He consumes quite a lot of bread, but the nature of his job means that he is a skinny as the rake he uses. If you want to know what is really causing obesity, take a look in your local fast food establishments. You will see people in there who are clearly no strangers to such places. Being a bit partial to a ploughman’s sandwich or spaghetti Bolognese will not make you obese.  

“For some that might mean cutting all starchy veg Bread Pasta and rice. For others that might just mean reducing portions of starchy veg Bread etc”

So you agree that it is about an individual finding what works for them. Are you arguing for the sake of it?


----------



## Hamrag

Bronco Billy said:


> There is no starting point for anyone. A newly diagnosed type 2 will need to experiment a bit to understand how to eat to their meter. Take my brother-in-law, for example, although he doesn’t have any form of diabetes. He is a gardener for the National Trust. He consumes quite a lot of bread, but the nature of his job means that he is a skinny as the rake he uses. If you want to know what is really causing obesity, take a look in your local fast food establishments. You will see people in there who are clearly no strangers to such places. Being a bit partial to a ploughman’s sandwich or spaghetti Bolognese will not make you obese.
> 
> “For some that might mean cutting all starchy veg Bread Pasta and rice. For others that might just mean reducing portions of starchy veg Bread etc”
> 
> So you agree that it is about an individual finding what works for them. Are you arguing for the sake of it?


Sorry! thought this was a forum which values all views! yours and mine included, this is a debate and I am trying to understand others points of view, so if you think I am arguing for the sake of it ! then you must believe that none of what I am saying has any credence, and that is not where I am coming from. Also you site your Brother as an example who does not have Diabetes ! and does a physically demanding job ! which is a very skewed example to use to make a point I think.


----------



## Bronco Billy

This is a forum where all views are welcome, so please continue to express yours. It was meant as a light-hearted comment, hence the smiley emoji next to it.

I used my brother-in-law as an example in response to your comment about causes of obesity, which we all know can lead to someone _developing _type 2. His example reinforces my point about a ‘one size fits all’ approach to diet not working. He has a diet that suits his lifestyle and is unlikely to develop type 2 by eating the foods you suggest are “heavily laden with refined Carbs, Sugar and High Fructose corn syrup,(highly processed foods) _all of which anyone T2, or not _should avoid like the plague!” A type 2 with a physically demanding job will also need to consume carbs, which will be worked off, thereby keeping the BGs from going through the roof.


----------



## Hamrag

Ditto said:


> I agree with this. I'm re-starting Atkins today, please God I can keep to it because at the minute I'm on the road to ruin.


Atkins Diet is very good. However I find that trying to stick too rigidly to a named diet difficult at times. I prefer to look at what I like and swap out the high carb bits for low carb alternatives whilst keeping my good fats at around 70% of my food intake, that way I never feel hungry, and therefore not tempted to go back to carbs.


----------



## Drummer

Ditto said:


> I agree with this. I'm re-starting Atkins today, please God I can keep to it because at the minute I'm on the road to ruin.


Do you already know your CCLL?
I was amused to realize that my CCLL was exactly the same as the number needed to keep my BG level normal, 50 gm per day, from low carb foods.
 I have found it really easy to get back to normal - but I did do LCHF for about 40 years before diagnosis, fighting the advice from HCPs all the way.


----------



## MikeTurin

I have watched an interesting video about blood sugar diet. An experiment was made explaining to people that they had to follow a blood TYPE diet, but they mixed actual blood group and diet. What emerged was that no difference were found against blood type, but everyone that partecipated in the group had lost weight and had better cholesterol and blood exam values. The better results were with the diet most effetive was the A type, or the vegetarian diet, but following other diet worked.

Probabily was a mindful attitude to eat
Last Friday I was out of town for work with some collegues, and due a series of unfortunate circumstances we eaten in a bad eatery. I ordered a salad that arrived full of oil and cheede and in the oil there was some  pizza bread soaked in. I have eaten the salad, marked with a big red no the cafeteria, my collegues eated the pizza and the icecream.

By the way when I relaxed the diet, I gained weight, while having good blood exam values. So even with LCHF, if you ead HF, you gain weight.


----------



## Hamrag

MikeTurin said:


> I have watched an interesting video about blood sugar diet. An experiment was made explaining to people that they had to follow a blood TYPE diet, but they mixed actual blood group and diet. What emerged was that no difference were found against blood type, but everyone that partecipated in the group had lost weight and had better cholesterol and blood exam values. The better results were with the diet most effetive was the A type, or the vegetarian diet, but following other diet worked.
> 
> Probabily was a mindful attitude to eat
> Last Friday I was out of town for work with some collegues, and due a series of unfortunate circumstances we eaten in a bad eatery. I ordered a salad that arrived full of oil and cheede and in the oil there was some  pizza bread soaked in. I have eaten the salad, marked with a big red no the cafeteria, my collegues eated the pizza and the icecream.
> 
> By the way when I relaxed the diet, I gained weight, while having good blood exam values. So even with LCHF, if you ead HF, you gain weight.


Hi Mike, Can you expand on what you mean by relaxing the diet?


----------



## Hamrag

A persons CCLL ( Critical carb level for losing weight) Is more important than the amount of calories consumed, as eating high Fat keeps you feeling fuller for longer, and although fat has a higher calorie density than the other Macro nutrients you eat less calories overall due to satiety. Also Fat does not stimulate the production of 'Insulin' (Fat storing hormone) in type 2 Diabetes which is also a cause of weight gain. Most people who report weight loss typically eat less than 50g net Carbs (around 10% of calories) a day, and eat around 70% of calorie intake in the form of Fats, and 20% calories in Protein.


----------



## travellor

Hamrag said:


> A persons CCLL ( Critical carb level for losing weight) Is more important than the amount of calories consumed, as eating high Fat keeps you feeling fuller for longer, and although fat has a higher calorie density than the other Macro nutrients you eat less calories overall due to satiety. Also Fat does not stimulate the production of 'Insulin' (Fat storing hormone) in type 2 Diabetes which is also a cause of weight gain. Most people who report weight loss typically eat less than 50g net Carbs (around 10% of calories) a day, and eat around 70% of calorie intake in the form of Fats, and 20% calories in Protein.



Interestingly, for me, that's complete rubbish.

I eat fat, it's not a magic food.
Once I pass the amount of calories I need, I get fat.
And a lot faster, as fat has twice the calories of carbs and protein.

The only way to lose weight is portion control, (which I suspect you are alluding to when you say that you personally "eat less calories".

It's not an all you can eat buffet to anyone I agree.
I suspect if you do list what calories you eat, you're find it's actually quite few.


----------



## Hamrag

travellor said:


> Interestingly, for me, that's complete rubbish.
> 
> I eat fat, it's not a magic food.
> Once I pass the amount of calories I need, I get fat.
> And a lot faster, as fat has twice the calories of carbs and protein.
> 
> The only way to lose weight is portion control, (which I suspect you are alluding to when you say that you personally "eat less calories".
> 
> It's not an all you can eat buffet to anyone I agree.
> I suspect if you do list what calories you eat, you're find it's actually quite few.



Correct on some of what you say, and yes I know when I have tracked my Calorie intake and output I am usually around 200 to 500 deficit, However you are ignoring the Hormone driven fat storing of Higher levels of Insulin stimulated by Carbs and Protein ! and the fact that Fats create Satiation and therefore you eat less! and produce less Insulin. Weight gain is driven by Insulin and the storing of excess sugars from starchy veg, Bread Rice Pasta etc.


----------



## travellor

Hamrag said:


> Correct on some of what you say, and yes I know when I have tracked my Calorie intake and output I am usually around 200 to 500 deficit, However you are ignoring the Hormone driven fat storing of Higher levels of Insulin stimulated by Carbs and Protein ! and the fact that Fats create Satiation and therefore you eat less! and produce less Insulin. Weight gain is driven by Insulin and the storing of excess sugars from starchy veg, Bread Rice Pasta etc.



If you agree you are in a calorie deficit, there won't be anything to store, insulin or not. 
Weight gain is driven by excess calories.


----------



## Eddy Edson

travellor said:


> If you agree you are in a calorie deficit, there won't be anything to store, insulin or not.
> Weight gain is driven by excess calories.



Yup. And there's a wealth of evidence to the effect that the particular strategy you use for maintaining the deficit is far less important than simply sticking with it, as far as weight loss goes.


----------



## chaoticcar

I eat a high calorie diet with lots of (good) fat but I cannot gain weight and struggle to keep my weight on .I eat lower carbs to try to keep my BGs down 
   Carol


----------



## Drummer

Hamrag said:


> A persons CCLL ( Critical carb level for losing weight) Is more important than the amount of calories consumed, as eating high Fat keeps you feeling fuller for longer, and although fat has a higher calorie density than the other Macro nutrients you eat less calories overall due to satiety. Also Fat does not stimulate the production of 'Insulin' (Fat storing hormone) in type 2 Diabetes which is also a cause of weight gain. Most people who report weight loss typically eat less than 50g net Carbs (around 10% of calories) a day, and eat around 70% of calorie intake in the form of Fats, and 20% calories in Protein.


I have been put on far too many low calorie diets by doctors who thought they knew better than I did - I just collapsed, no energy, white as a sheet and very little weight loss.
On a low carb diet I feel great, can go out to work - even at the age of 67, and then go out in the evening as well. I might be in a calorie deficit situation, but only because I am dancing around like a tigger on low carb. The same amount of calories but high carb and I'd be putting on weight.


----------



## travellor

chaoticcar said:


> I eat a high calorie diet with lots of (good) fat but I cannot gain weight and struggle to keep my weight on .I eat lower carbs to try to keep my BGs down
> Carol



So you reckon you are on 3000, 4000 calories, and still not gaining weight? 
I did at that amount.


----------



## Hamrag

travellor said:


> So you reckon you are on 3000, 4000 calories, and still not gaining weight?
> I did at that amount.


Calories from Fat are burnt more evenly and efficiently in the absence of Carbs  ( without stimulating Insulin production) Calories from Carbs burn in spikes and excess is stored as body fat due to the stimulation of Insulin, and because T2 Diabetics cannot utilise carbs efficiently because of Insulin resistance. the fat is stored more readily!  (its not as simple as Calories in and out)


----------



## travellor

Hamrag said:


> Calories from Fat are burnt more evenly and efficiently in the absence of Carbs  ( without stimulating Insulin production) Calories from Carbs burn in spikes and excess is stored as body fat due to the stimulation of Insulin, and because T2 Diabetics cannot utilise carbs efficiently because of Insulin resistance. the fat is stored more readily!  (its not as simple as Calories in and out)   View attachment 10178



Ah, the problem I have with all the guru's like Naiman, is they write their books, but my stomach can't read.
So, sadly, it still turns fat into fat, despite then saying it can't.
I burn them efficiently, and I still store the excess, probably just as efficiently.
It really is as simple as calories in, calories out for me.


----------



## Hamrag

Interestingly I had my annual Diabetic review yesterday, and the Nurse advised me to discontinue Gliclizide and slightly increase my Metformin as Metformin is weight neutral, and Gliclizide is weight Increasing. so here is another weight gaining pathway! never as simple as Calories in and out!!


----------



## grovesy

Hamrag said:


> Interestingly I had my annual Diabetic review yesterday, and the Nurse advised me to discontinue Gliclizide and slightly increase my Metformin as Metformin is weight neutral, and Gliclizide is weight Increasing. so here is another weight gaining pathway! never as simple as Calories in and out!!


I found Metformin did not help me with weight loss. Neither did I gain weight on Gliclizide.
Another case we all different and what works can vary from person to person.


----------



## travellor

Much the same as me.

I was prescribed Januvia, a Sitagliptin.
When I was taking it, in the year I lost around 4 stone on a low fat diet.
When I stopped taking it, I still lost more weight.

Then on just Metformin, I slightly gained weight, as I started eating more.
Now I'm medication free, I simply adjust the amount I eat to maintain my weight.

It would be nice to have a simple fix, one tablet to lose weight, one to gain weight, that 's the holy grail for dieting though, and they haven't found it yet.


----------



## Hamrag

I agree, there is no simple fix, However for some of us,  yes we have found the answer to our path for weight loss, good blood sugar control, and improved general health. Many more people could benefit if they put in the effort! For those who have tried LCHF lifestyle and find it is not for them, or that have not tried it and believe it is rubbish, then that's fine we all make our own choices, However I just choose not to ignore the ever increasing proof of the efficacy of this approach experienced both personally and now validated by thousands of people world wide.


----------



## HOBIE

Hamrag said:


> I agree, there is no simple fix, However for some of us,  yes we have found the answer to our path for weight loss, good blood sugar control, and improved general health. Many more people could benefit if they put in the effort! For those who have tried LCHF lifestyle and find it is not for them, or that have not tried it and believe it is rubbish, then that's fine we all make our own choices, However I just choose not to ignore the ever increasing proof of the efficacy of this approach experienced both personally and now validated by thousands of people world wide.


Well said. Low carbs is better. I don't particularly like food. Been T1 nearly ALL my life


----------



## travellor

HOBIE said:


> Well said. Low carbs is better. I don't particularly like food. Been T1 nearly ALL my life



Well, if low carb is better if you don't like food, what can I say
Horses for courses.


----------



## HOBIE

travellor said:


> Well, if low carb is better if you don't like food, what can I say
> Horses for courses.


Big difference between T1 & T2 ? When I was a kid I had to eat 50g of carbs before going to school. Do you think that might have something to do with it ? LOW carbs is healthier.


----------



## travellor

HOBIE said:


> Big difference between T1 & T2 ? When I was a kid I had to eat 50g of carbs before going to school. Do you think that might have something to do with it ? LOW carbs is healthier.



That's a very odd statement.


----------



## Hamrag

We all have our opinions, and 'Travellor' has his. But what I would like to know is, what is the alternative to reducing Sugar intake whether T1 or T2 ? I have clearly stated my view! But no one has convinced me yet that there is another way! All I have heard is that everyone is different (acknowledged) but that statement says to me 'why bother trying'


----------



## travellor

Hamrag said:


> We all have our opinions, and 'Travellor' has his. But what I would like to know is, what is the alternative to reducing Sugar intake whether T1 or T2 ? I have clearly stated my view! But no one has convinced me yet that there is another way! All I have heard is that everyone is different (acknowledged) but that statement says to me 'why bother trying'



I don't thinks it's up to the forum to force you to change your views.
And if you are happy, why should anyone try to convince you there is another way you should be following?
It's a forum to discuss and find solutions for all, not for zealots on a mission.

But, equally, simply because the rest of the forum decides for themselves, and have found other ways that works for them, and gives good control, I don't believe you have the right to dismiss them all out of hand as simply saying it's "why bother trying" to you.
The forum is full of people that try hard, every day.
Just not to your way.


----------



## HOBIE

travellor said:


> That's a very odd statement.


Do YOU think they are the same ?  BIG no no ! T1 your pancreas does not work at all. T2 it could work 80% or 20%. Not an odd statement ?.


----------



## MikeTurin

Hamrag said:


> Hi Mike, Can you expand on what you mean by relaxing the diet?


When I followed the diet strictly I was weighing everything, annotating everything.
No alchool and no icecreams 
The problem is that you can do this for a limited periodo, because it's exausting. It's also difficult to do when eating with friends and impossible with collegues.


So, while I sopped to eat in an unordered manner and now I am more mindful on what I eat, and I can control diabetes, I have eaten more calories, so I gained weight.


----------



## Hamrag

travellor said:


> I don't thinks it's up to the forum to force you to change your views.
> And if you are happy, why should anyone try to convince you there is another way you should be following?
> It's a forum to discuss and find solutions for all, not for zealots on a mission.
> 
> But, equally, simply because the rest of the forum decides for themselves, and have found other ways that works for them, and gives good control, I don't believe you have the right to dismiss them all out of hand as simply saying it's "why bother trying" to you.
> The forum is full of people that try hard, every day.
> Just not to your way.


I am not trying to force anyone to change their views! and I am not asking anyone to convince me that their is another way I should be following! I simply have not been shown any other way( Quote "But, equally, simply because the rest of the forum decides for themselves, and have found other ways that works for them, and gives good control", What other ways?- that works as well as or any better than LCHF. (A solution) And as for being a zealot on a mission, rather that than being an ostrich!  The End.


----------



## HOBIE

I have Two mates of mine OFF all there T2 meds.I used to be on insulin. Now Off. Because of what they put in there insides. I know what I would love to be able to do after a lifetime of T1


----------



## Hamrag

If you go back to the beginning of this Blogg you will see that it started out as a discussion about Diabetes uk and the recommended Nutritional guidelines for people with T1andT2 and if you look at 'DeuxXM'S' Post you will see that he de constructed the Guidelines! Makes interesting reading.


----------



## Hamrag

The link to NHS Dietary Guidelines below is a critique of the good and the bad when it comes to T2 Diabetes


----------



## Robin

Source?
(I agree with much of what it says, I’d just like to know who has produced it).

I think the major reason why everyone tiptoes round this subject, is that because the NHS is still recommending the starchy carbs route, and this is what a lot of people have come away from their doctors with, nobody wants to say outright 'your doctor is wrong' in case a dogmatic approach which contradicts the NHS frightens people away. (Also, as we have seen on this thread, there is a huge variation in the amount of carbs different people can tolerate, some report doing well on 100, others have gone for 50, etc). So we tend to take the 'test, and eat to your meter' approach, and hope the penny will drop.


----------



## Ljc

Hamrag said:


> The link to NHS Dietary Guidelines below is a critique of the good and the bad when it comes to T2 Diabetes


I too agree of much of what it says , I tend to follow the advise I was first given at my dx back in the 90s by the hospital diabetes clinic , which was to reduce carbs.

I’ve read on here of people who follow Keto, Paleo, 5-2 , blood sugar diet etc.
I know many on here follow LCHF.  I follow MCNF (moderate carb normal fats) I try to keep to under 100 carbs a day and avoid things that are not naturally low fat, so butter , cream, cheese etc is on my menu I just don’t go overboard on fats.
Imo it’s whatever works best for the person so long as it’s not too restrictive


----------



## Matt Cycle

Robin said:


> Source?
> (I agree with much of what it says, I’d just like to know who has produced it).



From the links it appears to be a .co.uk production and we all know what their agenda is. £30 to join the program (sic) anyone?


----------



## travellor

Matt Cycle said:


> From the links it appears to be a .co.uk production and we all know what their agenda is. £30 to join the program (sic) anyone?



I always think of Highlander.

"There can be only one"

Not for me.

That's why I like this site, it has a balanced viewpoint,  it kicks the zealots into touch, and the mods don't ban any other opinion.


----------



## Hamrag

Ljc said:


> I too agree of much of what it says , I tend to follow the advise I was first given at my dx back in the 90s by the hospital diabetes clinic , which was to reduce carbs.
> 
> I’ve read on here of people who follow Keto, Paleo, 5-2 , blood sugar diet etc.
> I know many on here follow LCHF.  I follow MCNF (moderate carb normal fats) I try to keep to under 100 carbs a day and avoid things that are not naturally low fat, so butter , cream, cheese etc is on my menu I just don’t go overboard on fats.
> Imo it’s whatever works best for the person so long as it’s not too restrictive


At Last someone who is willing to share what works for them as a T2 Moderate low carbs and natural fats.


----------



## Hamrag

travellor said:


> I always think of Highlander.
> 
> "There can be only one"
> 
> Not for me.
> 
> That's why I like this site, it has a balanced viewpoint,  it kicks the zealots into touch, and the mods don't ban any other opinion.


Zealots as you term Them/ Me! It is just  another opinion ( one you are clearly at odds with) and If you take the time to understand what I have written In my previous posts you will see that I am asking about these other opinions, and so who is trying to Ban them!?


----------



## travellor

Hamrag said:


> Zealots as you term Them/ Me! It is just  another opinion ( one you are clearly at odds with) and If you take the time to understand what I have written In my previous posts you will see that I am asking about these other opinions, and so who is trying to Ban them!?



I never said you were.

But I do suggest you read what you have written above.
"MCNF, moderate carbs normal fats", was the reply to you.
And your spin somehow needs to be "moderate low carbs natural fats"

Just saying.


----------



## Hamrag

Robin said:


> Source?
> (I agree with much of what it says, I’d just like to know who has produced it).
> 
> I think the major reason why everyone tiptoes round this subject, is that because the NHS is still recommending the starchy carbs route, and this is what a lot of people have come away from their doctors with, nobody wants to say outright 'your doctor is wrong' in case a dogmatic approach which contradicts the NHS frightens people away. (Also, as we have seen on this thread, there is a huge variation in the amount of carbs different people can tolerate, some report doing well on 100, others have gone for 50, etc). So we tend to take the 'test, and eat to your meter' approach, and hope the penny will drop.


Agree, However the problem with the NHS Nutritional guidelines is mainly the fact that they are aimed at everyone, Diabetic or not! and certainly in my GP Practice both my Doctor and Diabetic nurse acknowledge that however you try to reduce your sugar Intake be that Low carb, Keto, Moderate carb. If it works for you they are supportive. The Guidelines need to have a clearly written subsection for both T1 AND T2, Then both the Doctors , Nurses and Patients would be clearer about the advice that works for these/ their condition.


----------



## Hamrag

travellor said:


> I never said you were.
> 
> But I do suggest you read what you have written above.
> "MCNF, moderate carbs normal fats", was the reply to you.
> And you spin somehow needs to be "moderate low carbs natural fats"
> 
> Just saying.


100g Carbs (in my opinion) is Moderate. and the Fats described are all natural! Its no spin, just an opinion!


----------



## Eddy Edson

Hamrag said:


> At Last someone who is willing to share what works for them as a T2 Moderate low carbs and natural fats.



I'm mainly plant-based, moderate carbs (by which I mean something like 150g - 180g, sometimes higher), "Mediterranean" (so lots of unsaturated & not much saturated fats).

In other words, 100% consistent with the major international dietary guidelines & recommendations from credible nutrition experts, which contrary to the propaganda from "gurus", don't get their knickers in a twist about going higher or lower on particular macronutrient ratios, apart from capping proteins.

EDIT: Oh, and 30g+ fibre. For me, that's important for BG control and once again consistent with all the recs.  

I think the most important reason why you see targets like 45% - 60% carbs is because nutritionist want you to be eating lots of fibre & lots of whole grains, and they don't want you to replace them with saturated fats.  It's a bit ham-fisted (so to speak), but I can see the point when I read posts from LCHF-types saying things like "healthy fats like butter and bacon" (!). 

I think it's a point of dissonance for diabetics, because grains are often tough for BG control, but there's a wealth of evidence that fibre & whole-grains are Good Things. My solution: eat seeds. Lots of fibre, very beneficial for BG control, hopefully similar nutritional benefits to whole grains.

And then also: nowhere do I see those 45%-60% carb levels etched in stone & in all the major national guidelines from the US, the UK, Canada, Australia etc etc there is no objection to going lower-carb than that so long as you replace them with mainly plant-based fats and keep the fibre levels up.


----------



## Hamrag

Eddy Edson said:


> I'm mainly plant-based, moderate carbs (by which I mean something like 150g - 180g, sometimes higher), "Mediterranean" (so lots of unsaturated & not much saturated fats).
> 
> In other words, 100% consistent with the major international dietary guidelines & recommendations from credible nutrition experts, which contrary to the propaganda from "gurus", don't get their knickers in a twist about going higher or lower on particular macronutrient ratios, apart from capping proteins.


Can you point me towards the Major International guidelines please.


----------



## travellor

Hamrag said:


> 100g Carbs (in my opinion) is Moderate. and the Fats described are all natural! Its no spin, just an opinion!


Can you point me towards guidelines that define low carb, so we can see how you formed that definition please.


----------



## Eddy Edson

Hamrag said:


> Can you point me towards the Major International guidelines please.



The FAO has a convenient portal: http://www.fao.org/nutrition/educat...egions/countries/united-states-of-america/en/


----------



## Hamrag

travellor said:


> Can you point me towards guidelines that define low carb, so we can see how you formed that definition please.


I formed that Opinion based on Diabetes.uk Quote :
*"What is a low-carb diet?*
Currently, there is no agreement about the definition of a low-carb diet - but, anything providing less than 130g/day of a 2000kcal diet (26 per cent of energy) is considered 'low-carb'. Anything less than 30g/day of 2000kcal diet (6 per cent energy) is considered very low-carbohydrate ketogenic and is not recommended as research suggests this is not sustainable even in the medium term." So from that, In my opinion A low carb Diet can range between 130 Grams a day to 30 Grams a day. Therefore in my opinion  (50- 30 is low carb/ Keto) (50- 130) is Moderate low Carb, and I am aware that some people can return good blood results up to 200 Grams a day, (this will also be influenced by medication, and other conditions that may effect there health)


----------



## travellor

Hamrag said:


> I formed that Opinion based on Diabetes.uk Quote :
> *"What is a low-carb diet?*
> Currently, there is no agreement about the definition of a low-carb diet - but, anything providing less than 130g/day of a 2000kcal diet (26 per cent of energy) is considered 'low-carb'. Anything less than 30g/day of 2000kcal diet (6 per cent energy) is considered very low-carbohydrate ketogenic and is not recommended as research suggests this is not sustainable even in the medium term." So from that, In my opinion A low carb Diet can range between 130 Grams a day to 30 Grams a day. Therefore in my opinion  (50- 30 is low carb/ Keto) (50- 130) is Moderate low Carb, and I am aware that some people can return good blood results up to 200 Grams a day, (this will also be influenced by medication, and other conditions that may effect there health)



So, no real recognised definition then
I prefer the term "moderate" carb, as it was originally stated to be.


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## Hamrag

Can you explain, "as it was originally stated to be"


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## grovesy

I have found over the years that what works changes and it has to have been readjusted. Also that what ever way you manage it has to be maintained  long term.


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## Hamrag

grovesy said:


> I have found over the years that what works changes and it has to have been readjusted. Also that what ever way you manage it has to be maintained  long term.


I agree and I have had to reduce my Carb intake and Increase Medication further (after a 50%reduction 2 years ago) to maintain A1c below 41


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## travellor

grovesy said:


> I have found over the years that what works changes and it has to have been readjusted. Also that what ever way you manage it has to be maintained  long term.



True, healthy meditranean diet, came off meds, and can now eat a bit more than when I was on  the low fat diet. 

But I keep my eye on it, I reckon weight will go back on if I drop my guard, and that'll take my hba1c back up again.


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## Benny G

travellor said:


> True, healthy meditranean diet, came off meds, and can now eat a bit more than when I was on  the low fat diet.
> 
> But I keep my eye on it, I reckon weight will go back on if I drop my guard, and that'll take my hba1c back up again.


So you have found a way of eating and living that works for you. Well done.
I know you like your analogies, there's more than one way to skin a cat.


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## travellor

Benny G said:


> So you have found a way of eating and living that works for you. Well done.
> I know you like your analogies, there's more than one way to skin a cat.



Indeed there is, it does seem that the more of us that say it, the better choices people will have.


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## Hamrag

travellor said:


> So, no real recognised definition then
> I prefer the term "moderate" carb, as it was originally stated to be.


Not sure what you mean by this? " I prefer ---------------"


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## Hamrag

travellor said:


> True, healthy meditranean diet, came off meds, and can now eat a bit more than when I was on  the low fat diet.
> 
> But I keep my eye on it, I reckon weight will go back on if I drop my guard, and that'll take my hba1c back up again.


When you say Healthy Mediterranean diet do you mean Healthy fats, Oily Fish etc, and do you eat refined carbs- Bread, Pasta Rice etc? And as you have been able to come off your Meds, and maintain weight Is this through Calorie restriction? How long since Diagnosis?


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## travellor

Hamrag said:


> When you say Healthy Mediterranean diet do you mean Healthy fats, Oily Fish etc, and do you eat refined carbs- Bread, Pasta Rice etc? And as you have been able to come off your Meds, and maintain weight Is this through Calorie restriction? How long since Diagnosis?



No, I never mentioned fats, I just said a healthy Mediterranean diet.

Certainly low fat, if you really need to put the word into my diet, so let's call it a healthy LOW fat Mediterranean diet if you need to.
I reversed my diabetics through a low fat diet, no reason to put the weight  back on eating fat again.


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## Hamrag

travellor said:


> No, I never mentioned fats, I just said a healthy Mediterranean diet.
> 
> Certainly low fat, if you really need to put the word into my diet, so let's call it a healthy LOW fat Mediterranean diet if you need to.
> I reversed my diabetics through a low fat diet, no reason to put the weight  back on eating fat again.


No I wasn't putting the word Fat into your diet ! As a Mediterranean Diet as far as I am aware, and having lived in Crete for some time in the past includes oily Fish, Lamb, Goats cheese, Olives, Salads with Olive oil dressings, and Olive oil for cooking, I simply was asking when you Say Healthy Med diet do you include these fats/oils. But it seams not, and I was asking do you eat Pasta, Bread, and Rice, which are foods that I would avoid in order to keep my Blood Glucose down. Also the reason I asked how long since Diagnosis was because I have been diagnosed now for around 12 years and although I have now successfully  managed my T2 through a combination of Low carb and reduced medication, like many people with long standing T2 I still have to take Meds.


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## travellor

Hamrag said:


> No I wasn't putting the word Fat into your diet ! As a Mediterranean Diet as far as I am aware, and having lived in Crete for some time in the past includes oily Fish, Lamb, Goats cheese, Olives, Salads with Olive oil dressings, and Olive oil for cooking, I simply was asking when you Say Healthy Med diet do you include these fats/oils. But it seams not, and I was asking do you eat Pasta, Bread, and Rice, which are foods that I would avoid in order to keep my Blood Glucose down. Also the reason I asked how long since Diagnosis was because I have been diagnosed now for around 12 years and although I have now successfully  managed my T2 through a combination of Low carb and reduced medication, like many people with long standing T2 I still have to take Meds.



Diagnosed 7 years ago.
Originally prescribed metformin, then Januvia added.
It took me two years to bring it back down to normal levels.
I was then took off Januvia, and reduced to 500g of metformin.
I resisted being taken off metformin for a long time, but as my Hba1c has been stable at 34 for 5 years, I was taken off it last year.

At the risk of boring everyone.....
When I was diagnosed,  I was morbidly obese.
I also got fat through overeating, that was down to me.
I realised losing weight was something I needed to do then.
I looked at different diets, and decided I wanted a non restrictive diet eventually, as I didn't want to be tied into a diet for life, so it was fairly obvious to myself then I wanted a choice that meant reversing diabetes, not simply avoiding the food group the raised BG.
(To me that was simply like someone with a pollen allergy choosing to live in a plastic bubble for life, and that wasn't for me)
Also, no one could admit they still portion control on HF, I had had several decades of overeating, because I chose to, so I could easily eat several thousands calories of fat in a meal. And I know fat makes me fat. (Yes, I did try LCHF initially, so that was based on experience, the bit about not stuffing your face still often gets overlooked)

So, working with the NHS, I lost about 4 stone in the year, using my meter and their dietitian tuning their low fat diet to suit.
All carbs aren't equal, all carbs don't turn to sugar at the same rate, so if you do produce insulin, as I still did, it's simply a question of finding foods that release slower, and there is no issue keeping up with it.
I still wasn't quite reversed, so I then finished with the Newcastle Diet, which did that for me.
I had read all the comments on "starvation mode", maybe it does exist for some, it doesn't for me.
(Very similar to Fungs fasting, eating normally, then fasting, so overall low calorie, but I don't think he had invented that until after the Newcastle diet, so I found Prof Taylors results and they had a good track record.)

Then I moved to a much healthier diet then previously, concentrated on the calories, and dropped the overeating. Which isn't to say it's utterly rigid, I can still eat a BugerKing, or a Domino's.
I have lost my sweet tooth through. 
I don't eat cakes or donuts anymore, mainly as they are too sweet, and I have the mindset now of thinking about empty calories.

As to insulin resistance, I worked with the NHS there too, attended the courses, and got referred to an NHS gym, very good for me, graded exercise, and then I realised exercise greatly reduced insulin resistance, as your muscles work, (I had been sedentary) and start to break down the glucose again.

Yes, there may be spikes initially, there may be liver dumps, there may be odd things happening for a while, but I decided I wasn't going to spend my life trying to avoid any odd reading on my meter, as that's as bad as being diabetic still. Maybe I spiked during exercise, maybe I rose more than 2, maybe I had a dawn phenomenon, but that passes. It don't vanish entirely, but it happens to normal people too.
And I'm happy with normal.
I don't need the "gold standard" of BG control.
Normal people don't suffer diabetic complications, that's enough for me.


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## Hamrag

travellor said:


> Diagnosed 7 years ago.
> Originally prescribed metformin, then Januvia added.
> It took me two years to bring it back down to normal levels.
> I was then took off Januvia, and reduced to 500g of metformin.
> I resisted being taken off metformin for a long time, but as my Hba1c has been stable at 34 for 5 years, I was taken off it last year.
> 
> At the risk of boring everyone.....
> When I was diagnosed,  I was morbidly obese.
> I also got fat through overeating, that was down to me.
> I realised losing weight was something I needed to do then.
> I looked at different diets, and decided I wanted a non restrictive diet eventually, as I didn't want to be tied into a diet for life, so it was fairly obvious to myself then I wanted a choice that meant reversing diabetes, not simply avoiding the food group the raised BG.
> (To me that was simply like someone with a pollen allergy choosing to live in a plastic bubble for life, and that wasn't for me)
> Also, no one could admit they still portion control on HF, I had had several decades of overeating, because I chose to, so I could easily eat several thousands calories of fat in a meal. And I know fat makes me fat. (Yes, I did try LCHF initially, so that was based on experience, the bit about not stuffing your face still often gets overlooked)
> 
> So, working with the NHS, I lost about 4 stone in the year, using my meter and their dietitian tuning their low fat diet to suit.
> All carbs aren't equal, all carbs don't turn to sugar at the same rate, so if you do produce insulin, as I still did, it's simply a question of finding foods that release slower, and there is no issue keeping up with it.
> I still wasn't quite reversed, so I then finished with the Newcastle Diet, which did that for me.
> I had read all the comments on "starvation mode", maybe it does exist for some, it doesn't for me.
> (Very similar to Fungs fasting, eating normally, then fasting, so overall low calorie, but I don't think he had invented that until after the Newcastle diet, so I found Prof Taylors results and they had a good track record.)
> 
> Then I moved to a much healthier diet then previously, concentrated on the calories, and dropped the overeating. Which isn't to say it's utterly rigid, I can still eat a BugerKing, or a Domino's.
> I have lost my sweet tooth through.
> I don't eat cakes or donuts anymore, mainly as they are too sweet, and I have the mindset now of thinking about empty calories.
> 
> As to insulin resistance, I worked with the NHS there too, attended the courses, and got referred to an NHS gym, very good for me, graded exercise, and then I realised exercise greatly reduced insulin resistance, as your muscles work, (I had been sedentary) and start to break down the glucose again.
> 
> Yes, there may be spikes initially, there may be liver dumps, there may be odd things happening for a while, but I decided I wasn't going to spend my life trying to avoid any odd reading on my meter, as that's as bad as being diabetic still. Maybe I spiked during exercise, maybe I rose more than 2, maybe I had a dawn phenomenon, but that passes. It don't vanish entirely, but it happens to normal people too.
> And I'm happy with normal.
> I don't need the "gold standard" of BG control.
> Normal people don't suffer diabetic complications, that's enough for me.


Now put into perspective, I am understanding more where you are coming from. I looked into the Newcastle diet some two years ago and can appreciate how people get good results from the diet both in terms of weight loss and BS control / reversal of Insulin Resistance. I chose to go down the road of LCHF as I didn't think I could cope with just 600 cal restriction, even for just 8 weeks. However I did practice Intermittent Fasting 1-2 days a week for around 6 weeks which help me shed my 3 stone overweight. Your History is interesting and I can now appreciate your point of view.


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## Benny G

Well done Travellor, you have done the hard work. You have lost the weight and kept the weight off. Achieved and maintain a normal hba1c. You have reversed diabetes and maintain your success through diet and exercise. Well done. 
There's no need to worry about blowing your own trumpet. This forum is the perfect arena to share personal experience of success or failure.


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