# This morning



## tracey w (Feb 1, 2011)

now talking about type 1 and type 2 diabetes


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## tracey w (Feb 1, 2011)

oops chris Steel was 8.5, think he was shocked


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## redrevis (Feb 1, 2011)

Thanks for the heads up. When I switched over I think I missed the type 1 stuff, it was all the type 2 stuff. They seemed to cover that side well. how did they do with type 1? Correct information I hope.


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## tracey w (Feb 1, 2011)

yes it was a quick link wasnt it?

I like the fact that Phil has a brother and mother with type one, who he always points out that the two types are very different in onset.

I thought they covered it well, talked about everyone getting tested after 40, good idea and raised awareness of complications.

Really was about type 2 but good they mentioned the difference i think.


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## redrevis (Feb 1, 2011)

Ahh I didn't realised he has family members with type 1. 
I was surprised they didn't mention that a lot of the big supermarkets do free testing. I mean we all have to do food shopping, if someone wants to be tested it's a convenient way of doing it. But overall I was quite pleased with what they said and definitely liked Phil jumping in with 'we mustn't get the types confused"


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## redrevis (Feb 1, 2011)

What's Chris like, drinking half a litre of a sports drink before testing himself and forgetting that he'd drank it

*Also notice they keep saying you can 'turn around type 2, but not type 1' being careful not to use the word cure


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## hotchop (Feb 1, 2011)

i like that i can turn t2 around and not be diabetic anymore lol


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## smile4loubie (Feb 1, 2011)

"you can turn around type 2 diabetes" grrr slightly annoyed by this comment but ill survive!


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## redrevis (Feb 1, 2011)

Why were they finger pricking people in the middle of the tip of the finger 
Were they trying to make it more painful than it needs to be


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## lanzlady (Feb 1, 2011)

Ooh is it really true Type 2 can be turned around Dr Chris has just mentioned how good this web site is please please be true


Lanzlady


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

smile4loubie said:


> "you can turn around type 2 diabetes" grrr slightly annoyed by this comment but ill survive!



Some people can. If you've still got a functioning pancreas (mostly) and the problem is largely down to insulin resistance, then losing weight can be the difference between having to take medication to control bg and not.

Andy 

p.s. It sounded like a good article.


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## mcdonagh47 (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> Some people can. .



Nobody can "turn around" Type 2 Diabetes.
Good control and preventative measuresis to ward off complications for as long as possible, is all we can hope for.

It's irresponsible of them to make such remarks.


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## lucy123 (Feb 1, 2011)

Surely though - getting yourself off meds through hard exercise and good diet is turning diabetes around - It doesn't mean cures it.
I like to think I have turned mine around as I  understand so do  many others on here.
They are not saying cure or reverse it completely.


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## novorapidboi26 (Feb 1, 2011)

mcdonagh47 said:


> Nobody can "turn around" Type 2 Diabetes.
> Good control and preventative measuresis to ward off complications for as long as possible, is all we can hope for.
> 
> It's irresponsible of them to make such remarks.



Not everyone is the same but my understanding is if your active enough (promotes sensitivity) and of a weight that your pancreas can supply insulin to, then I also believe that it can be turned round and the induvidual can live a complication free life, or at least the same as a non diabetic.....

By no means does that mean a cure however......


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

mcdonagh47 said:


> Nobody can "turn around" Type 2 Diabetes.
> Good control and preventative measuresis to ward off complications for as long as possible, is all we can hope for.
> 
> It's irresponsible of them to make such remarks.



Sorry mate, you're just plain wrong.

As I said in my previous post, if a diabetic's main problem is insulin resistance then you can improve sensitivity and thereby reduce or remove the need for medication to control bg levels. That, in my book, is 'turning around Type 2 diabetes'.

Now, it would be irresponsible to say that everyone with type 2 diabetes can do that.

Andy 

p.s. Don't worry, I'm not ganging up on you!


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## smile4loubie (Feb 1, 2011)

maybe thats why the said turn around rather than cure. because you will still need to have check ups regularly that your body is still producing enough insulin surely...


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

smile4loubie said:


> maybe thats why the said turn around rather than cure. because you will still need to have check ups regularly that your body is still producing enough insulin surely...



Absolutely! I'm under no illusion (I think) that my pancreas was under strain before. There's no telling if it will give up the ghost at some point in the future.

That's why I will generally test once a week to keep an eye on it.

Andy


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## lucy123 (Feb 1, 2011)

smile4loubie said:


> maybe thats why the said turn around rather than cure. because you will still need to have check ups regularly that your body is still producing enough insulin surely...



Of course yes - you will still always need the hba1c check and annual check, but what we are trying to say is that by changing our lifestyle we personally feel our diabetes is better (turned around-not cured). But also as Andy suggested Diabetes does what it will and for some no matter how much diet and exercise you do, the diabetes may progress.

All we are saying is for some it turns around - but never cured!


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## novorapidboi26 (Feb 1, 2011)

smile4loubie said:


> maybe thats why the said turn around rather than cure. because you will still need to have check ups regularly that your body is still producing enough insulin surely...



On the back of that comment, do type 2s pancreases start to produce less insulin, or, cant produce engough for the current body mass, or, both....

And another question, dependant on the above questions answer........

Can a type 2 stop producing insulin completely and if so, why....?


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

novorapidboi26 said:


> On the back of that comment, do type 2s pancreases start to produce less insulin, or, cant produce engough for the current body mass, or, both....
> 
> And another question, dependant on the above questions answer........
> 
> Can a type 2 stop producing insulin completely and if so, why....?



The one circumstance that I have heard of is when the pancreas has to pump out so much insulin because of insulin resistance it simply wears itself out (in technical parlance!). No doubt the process is far more complicated than that, though.


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## smile4loubie (Feb 1, 2011)

Oh yeah I totally agree. I just meant that it was This Morning covering themselves by saying turning around diabetes and that it could be giving people who havent got access to this great place false hope that they are "cured". and that maybe they should stated that it wasnt curing it as the guy stil needs to go for check ups. 
When I was diagnosed I was 15 and was told I was type 1 and put on insulin straight away, they've since changed this and said type 2 so it just makes me wonder if I had been given the opportunity to change my lifestyle how much of a difference would it of made to me.


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## smile4loubie (Feb 1, 2011)

novorapidboi26 said:


> On the back of that comment, do type 2s pancreases start to produce less insulin, or, cant produce engough for the current body mass, or, both....
> 
> And another question, dependant on the above questions answer........
> 
> Can a type 2 stop producing insulin completely and if so, why....?



mine worked better for a while when i lost weight but eventually gave up and ive since been put back on insulin (was on insulin when first diagnosed as they thought i was type 1 then changed their minds and put me on tablets)


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## novorapidboi26 (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> The one circumstance that I have heard of is when the pancreas has to pump out so much insulin because of insulin resistance it simply wears itself out (in technical parlance!). No doubt the process is far more complicated than that, though.



Cheers Andy, that situation wouldnt be good, one day it might start working again...........


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## katie (Feb 1, 2011)

I met an American guy in Australia who used to be obese, and was told he had type 2 Diabetes.  He has now lost alot of wait and was told he is cured.  I told him he is not cured (he didn't believe me ), but he definitely turned it around so that he doesn't need to be on meds or really think about it much. He just needs to eat sensibly.


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## novorapidboi26 (Feb 1, 2011)

katie said:


> I met an American guy in Australia who used to be obese, and was told he had type 2 Diabetes.  He has now lost alot of wait and was told he is cured.  I told him he is not cured (he didn't believe me ), but he definitely turned it around so that he doesn't need to be on meds or really think about it much. He just needs to eat sensibly.



If the docs said I was cured I wouldnt let anyone tell me different...., well done for trying though.........


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## Lewy (Feb 1, 2011)

mcdonagh47 said:


> It's irresponsible of them to make such remarks.



I can't understand why people are always picking apart any mainstream media coverage of diabetes with the slightest slip up. Focus on the positive, if that piece allowed one person to discover they're diabetic before they had any complications then it has served a fanastic purpose. 

In my opinion it was by far the best coverage I've seen of diabetes as a whole. Clearly defining the differences between type 1 and 2, and showing the condition in a positive light with opportunities, not restrictions.

In the case of the guest they were interviewing he did "turn it around" and went from potentially being on insulin injections to no medication whatsoever and living a healthy lifestyle. That pretty much defines "turning it around" in my eyes.


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## alisonz (Feb 1, 2011)

Just out of interest can a T2 turn into a T1?


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## mcdonagh47 (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> Sorry mate, you're just plain wrong.
> 
> As I said in my previous post, if a diabetic's main problem is insulin resistance then you can improve sensitivity and thereby reduce or remove the need for medication to control bg levels. That, in my book, is 'turning around Type 2 diabetes'.
> )



Andy, in my book you're still a newbie still in the first flush of weight loss and exercise and thinking that's all there is to it. BUt you posted recently that you had let your regime slip and the numbers went up and you went back to more rowing on the machine - so what exactly have you turned around if the moment you lose focus it rises up and bites you on the bum ?
No personal offence meant in any of this.


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

alisonz said:


> Just out of interest can a T2 turn into a T1?



From my unscientific standpoint, I'd say yes, but only on the basis that the pancreas has stopped producing insulin.

That's why, in my head, I tend to think of type 1's and type 2's and type MODY's as just variants of the same thing. It just all depends on how much insulin the pancreas produces (ranging from some to none) and what level of insulin resistance a person has.

Andy


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> From my unscientific standpoint, I'd say yes, but only on the basis that the pancreas has stopped producing insulin.
> 
> That's why, in my head, I tend to think of type 1's and type 2's and type MODY's as just variants of the same thing. It just all depends on how much insulin the pancreas produces (ranging from some to none) and what level of insulin resistance a person has.
> 
> Andy



p.s. I await to be educated to think differently!


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

mcdonagh47 said:


> Andy, in my book you're still a newbie still in the first flush of weight loss and exercise and thinking that's all there is to it. BUt you posted recently that you had let your regime slip and the numbers went up and you went back to more rowing on the machine - so what exactly have you turned around if the moment you lose focus it rises up and bites you on the bum ?
> No personal offence meant in any of this.



I agree to a point. But there are always levels of slipping. My slipping is in terms of adding a couple of pounds. Also, it didn't result in any difficulty in bg control.

I'm also under no illusion that my current happy situation won't change. However, my activities have improved my insulin sensitivity and that has been the case for over a year now. Wheras I was on gliclazide and then metformin to start with, there is currently no need for me to take them  and I haven't since the end of January, 2010.

My next HbA1c is coming up at the end of Feb, so we'll see eh? 

Andy 

p.s. I'm pretty sure I didn't say that my numbers went up, by the way.


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## randomange (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> p.s. I await to be educated to think differently!



I'd say no, from a scientific standpoint!   Type 1 diabetes is defined as being an autoimmune disease in which the immune system attacks and destroys the beta cells in the pancreas, resulting in no insulin production.  While a type 2 can end up with little or no insulin production, my understanding is that the mechanism is different.  They would just end up being an insulin-requiring type 2, rather than a type 1.

But that is just me being pedantic.


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

randomange said:


> I'd say no, from a scientific standpoint!   Type 1 diabetes is defined as being an autoimmune disease in which the immune system attacks and destroys the beta cells in the pancreas, resulting in no insulin production.  While a type 2 can end up with little or no insulin production, my understanding is that the mechanism is different.  They would just end up being an insulin-requiring type 2, rather than a type 1.
> 
> But that is just me being pedantic.



Agreed. 

The type 1 and type 2 definitions are more about how the diabetes developed in the first place. But in terms of the end-point, I'd say the results are the same. If you get my meaning.


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## katie (Feb 1, 2011)

randomange said:


> I'd say no, from a scientific standpoint!   Type 1 diabetes is defined as being an autoimmune disease in which the immune system attacks and destroys the beta cells in the pancreas, resulting in no insulin production.  While a type 2 can end up with little or no insulin production, my understanding is that the mechanism is different.  They would just end up being an insulin-requiring type 2, rather than a type 1.
> 
> But that is just me being pedantic.



Surely that means they could also get the autoimmune disease aswell type 2. Pretty unlucky. But yes, totally different mechanisms.


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## novorapidboi26 (Feb 1, 2011)

From my understanding the following types are defined as;

Type 1 - insulin secreting beta cells destroyted by patients own antibodies 

Type 2 - Resistance to patients own insulin/not enough insulin/defficiency

Type 1.5 - Type 1 - destruction of beta cells but at a much slower rate


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## katie (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> Agreed.
> 
> The type 1 and type 2 definitions are more about how the diabetes developed in the first place. But in terms of the end-point, I'd say the results are the same. If you get my meaning.



No because they'd also have problems using the insulin they are injecting so would still need pills.


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## Adrienne (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> From my unscientific standpoint, I'd say yes, but only on the basis that the pancreas has stopped producing insulin.
> 
> That's why, in my head, I tend to think of type 1's and type 2's and type MODY's as just variants of the same thing. It just all depends on how much insulin the pancreas produces (ranging from some to none) and what level of insulin resistance a person has.
> 
> Andy



Nonononononononooooooooo No.  Once a type 2 you CANNOT become type 1.  It is a different condition completely.  Type 2 is what they used to called the old age onset but had to change it as it wasn't just old people.  Sometimes it is called the lifestyle diabetes and it is connected with overweightness, bad lifestyle, hereditry or sometimes just plain unlucky.  Sometimes type 2 can be helped before you get it, which is why there are all these campaigns ie lose weight, etc etc.  Type 2 is all about insulin resistence.

However type 1 is an auto immune condition.   It just happens, generally in children and it was called juvenile diabetes but can happen in people up to about 40.   Type 1 often needs a trigger ie an illness or trauma (ie falling out a tree for example or a death in the family etc).   It can also be hereditry but only if other type 1's in the family, not type 2, different thing altogether.

Type 1's always need insulin injections or a pump from the word go and there is no coming off it at all ever.  

Type 2 can be diet controlled and/or tablet and/or insulin.   If you can 'turn it around' you can come off the insulin/tablets but that is hard work but can be achieved.

They are very very different.  If a type 2 goes onto insulin they are still a type 2, they are never a type 1.   Even some GP's get this wrong, which is flipping amazing.

Hope that answers


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## Adrienne (Feb 1, 2011)

The This Morning programme was much better than normal.   The Children with Diabetes group knew this was coming up and we were so sick to death of Dr Chris and the silver fox getting it wrong, even though we knew Mr S had family members with type 1 that we bombarded them with emails directly to the programme, phone calls, messages on their facebook page and lots of us twittered Philip as well.    

One of our friends had her fb message read out as well.    So I like to think that this first for This Morning was as a result of my buddies hard work.

We have thanked Philip via email and fb and twitter.  However are not that happy with Dr Chris as he still got it wrong and still kept generalising and they really have no idea how damaging this is to the type 1 kiddies out there.

So feeling proud of my friends today.


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

Adrienne said:


> Nonononononononooooooooo No.  Once a type 2 you CANNOT become type 1.  It is a different condition completely.  Type 2 is what they used to called the old age onset but had to change it as it wasn't just old people.  Sometimes it is called the lifestyle diabetes and it is connected with overweightness, bad lifestyle, hereditry or sometimes just plain unlucky.  Sometimes type 2 can be helped before you get it, which is why there are all these campaigns ie lose weight, etc etc.  Type 2 is all about insulin resistence.
> 
> However type 1 is an auto immune condition.   It just happens, generally in children and it was called juvenile diabetes but can happen in people up to about 40.   Type 1 often needs a trigger ie an illness or trauma (ie falling out a tree for example or a death in the family etc).   It can also be hereditry but only if other type 1's in the family, not type 2, different thing altogether.
> 
> ...



I agree that in terms of how diabetes develops, a type 1 is a type 1 and a type 2 is a type 2. 

The point I'm trying to make (obviously inexpertly!), is that a type 2's pancreas can also stop producing insulin. Once that happens, they have precisely the same insulin injecting requirements as a type 1. In that respect, they are indistinguishable.

Andy


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## randomange (Feb 1, 2011)

I think Katie's right in that a type 2 could potentially end up with the same autoimmune attack on the pancreas as a type one - agreed, very unlucky! But possible I would imagine.  I think there's been some recent research that suggests that in some type 2's who end up on insulin there might be some kind of autoimmunity involved - it's been suggested that the huge amounts of insulin being secreted by the pancreas triggers some kind of immune attack - but it's not conclusive yet.


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## novorapidboi26 (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> I agree that in terms of how diabetes develops, a type 1 is a type 1 and a type 2 is a type 2.
> 
> The point I'm trying to make (obviously inexpertly!), is that a type 2's pancreas can also stop producing insulin. Once that happens, they have precisely the same insulin injecting requirements as a type 1. In that respect, they are indistinguishable.
> 
> Andy



this all came from my question, which was can a type 2 essentially not produce any insulin................

which I think is not as common as the resistance/not enough cases......


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

katie said:


> No because they'd also have problems using the insulin they are injecting so would still need pills.



Also agreed. 

But assuming the insulin sensitivity has been improved through exercise (if it can, I presume there are times when that may not happen?), the additional pills won't necessarily be required.

Boy, am I squirming!! 

Andy


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> Also agreed.
> 
> But assuming the insulin sensitivity has been improved through exercise (if it can, I presume there are times when that may not happen?), the additional pills won't necessarily be required.
> 
> ...



p.s. But enjoying the conversation!


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## margie (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy - at least you have generated debate.

The Drs at my clinic now believe that Type 1s can develop insulin resistance (which is sort of type 2 and type 1 together) but of course in this case the resistance is to an artificial clinic. 

Also some years back - they were talking about dropping the distinction between the types and instead treating you depending on whether you required insulin or not.


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## mcdonagh47 (Feb 1, 2011)

margie said:


> Andy - at least you have generated debate.
> 
> The Drs at my clinic now believe that Type 1s can develop insulin resistance (which is sort of type 2 and type 1 together) but of course in this case the resistance is to an artificial clinic.
> 
> Also some years back - they were talking about dropping the distinction between the types and instead treating you depending on whether you required insulin or not.



"Double Diabetes" refers to T1s who also have Insulin Resistance ( i.e. effectively T2 as well as T1).Tiger lily, a Canadian lady , well known on the diabetic support groups has Double Diabetes.


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## bev (Feb 1, 2011)

Adrienne said:


> Nonononononononooooooooo No.  Once a type 2 you CANNOT become type 1.  It is a different condition completely.  Type 2 is what they used to called the old age onset but had to change it as it wasn't just old people.  Sometimes it is called the lifestyle diabetes and it is connected with overweightness, bad lifestyle, hereditry or sometimes just plain unlucky.  Sometimes type 2 can be helped before you get it, which is why there are all these campaigns ie lose weight, etc etc.  Type 2 is all about insulin resistence.
> 
> However type 1 is an auto immune condition.   It just happens, generally in children and it was called juvenile diabetes but can happen in people up to about 40.   Type 1 often needs a trigger ie an illness or trauma (ie falling out a tree for example or a death in the family etc).   It can also be hereditry but only if other type 1's in the family, not type 2, different thing altogether.
> 
> ...



Hi Adrienne,
I couldnt agree with you more. Type 1 and type 2 have different names - because they are completely different conditions and should not be compared with each other as they are poles apart. Type 2's do not become type 1's just because they are put on insulin - its a whole different condition altogether so we shouldnt get confused into thinking that they are one and the same.Bev


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## Steff (Feb 1, 2011)

Was it good then lol, ill have to watch it on catch up x


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

bev said:


> Hi Adrienne,
> I couldnt agree with you more. Type 1 and type 2 have different names - because they are completely different conditions and should not be compared with each other as they are poles apart. Type 2's do not become type 1's just because they are put on insulin - its a whole different condition altogether so we shouldnt get confused into thinking that they are one and the same.Bev



They can be compared on the basis of insulin production and insulin resistance. A Type 1 is at the extreme end of the range in that there is no insulin production at all. A Type 2 can be in the same boat, but that is less common, I believe.

The Type 2's are not so easy to categorise because the levels of natural insulin production can vary so widely (and even be erratic) from zero up to whatever (I assume that the pancreas could even be over-stimulated?).

Andy

p.s. I now concede the point wholeheartedly that a Type 1 is a Type 1 and a Type 2 is a Type 2.


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## shiv (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> They can be compared on the basis of insulin production and insulin resistance. A Type 1 is at the extreme end of the range in that there is no insulin production at all. A Type 2 can be in the same boat, but that is less common, I believe.



I hate to stick my oar in but going back to the original question - can a type 2 turn into a type 1 - you cannot put type 1 and type 2 on a 'range' in terms of clinical diagnosis. Type 1 is an autoimmune condition in which the body has attacked the insulin producing cells thus stopping the production of insulin, type 2 is caused by insulin resistance (in all its many forms).


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## mcdonagh47 (Feb 1, 2011)

tracey w said:


> now talking about type 1 and type 2 diabetes



FOR ANYONE WHO MISSED IT THE TEN MINUTE TAKE ON DIABETES IS HERE ON THE itv pLAYER ...
http://thismorning.itv.com/thismorning/health/10-minute-health-test-diabetes


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## shiv (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> (I assume that the pancreas could even be over-stimulated?).



This would be hyperinsulinism - http://www.hi-fund.org/


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

mcdonagh47 said:


> FOR ANYONE WHO MISSED IT THE TEN MINUTE TAKE ON DIABETES IS HERE ON THE itv pLAYER ...
> http://thismorning.itv.com/thismorning/health/10-minute-health-test-diabetes



Thanks for that, I didn't get around to seeing it on the telly.

Oh, by the way, the thought has just occurred to me that a Type 1 can still have some natural insulin production capability left (e.g. Northerner?).

Andy


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## shiv (Feb 1, 2011)

Yes, however the tests they can perform - and off the top of my head I can't think what tests they are - show autoimmune response (as opposed to insulin resistance), thus defining people as type 1. There are of course variants such as MODY and LADA, which I believe are genetic and therefore can be tested for by looking for various genes.


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## Steff (Feb 1, 2011)

Thanks MC for link i didnt realise that they was no direct symptoms to type 2 unlike type 1, i was quite surprised dr chris had drunk half a bottle of sports drink or whatever it was,he was not aware he was going to get his finger pricked then i guess if he had of known he surely would not of drunk it, as him being a doctor id assume he would be aware sports drink would make blood sugar rise x


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## randomange (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> Thanks for that, I didn't get around to seeing it on the telly.
> 
> Oh, by the way, the thought has just occurred to me that a Type 1 can still have some natural insulin production capability left (e.g. Northerner?).
> 
> Andy



Yup, there was an interesting study done by the Joslin diabetes centre that was published last year that that found that some type 1's still had insulin-producing cells, but there was evidence that these cells were still being killed off by the immune system.  You can read about it here.


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## Adrienne (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> p.s. I now concede the point wholeheartedly that a Type 1 is a Type 1 and a Type 2 is a Type 2.



Excellent.  Unfortunately it is this type of discussion that gets out kids into trouble and bullied.   Type 1 and type 2 are different.   They are both serious and both need treatment.  Type 1 is always insulin and type 2 is a variety of stuff.   You can turn around type 2 but you cannot ever turn around type 1.

It is for this very discussion that both or one need to be renamed.   There is a stigma attached to type 2, which I do not agree with so don't get me wrong, but this stigma cannot in any way shape or form be attached to type 1 and people wrongly do and therefore our kids get called fat or that they have eaten too many sweets so its their fault and this is by teachers and nurses who should know better.


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## Adrienne (Feb 1, 2011)

shiv said:


> This would be hyperinsulinism - http://www.hi-fund.org/



This is my daughters condition and her story is on this website.  She has type 1 'with bells on'.    Hers is a genetic condition and her pancreas removed so you could argue that she does not have type 1 either and that is true so essentially she is insulin dependant due to a pancreatectomy which has its own extra problems.


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

Adrienne said:


> Excellent.  Unfortunately it is this type of discussion that gets out kids into trouble and bullied.   Type 1 and type 2 are different.   They are both serious and both need treatment.  Type 1 is always insulin and type 2 is a variety of stuff.   You can turn around type 2 but you cannot ever turn around type 1.
> 
> It is for this very discussion that both or one need to be renamed.   There is a stigma attached to type 2, which I do not agree with so don't get me wrong, but this stigma cannot in any way shape or form be attached to type 1 and people wrongly do and therefore our kids get called fat or that they have eaten too many sweets so its their fault and this is by teachers and nurses who should know better.



Ack! Hate it when people stigmatise conditions. Makes intelligent debate somewhat difficult.


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## Nemo (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> From my unscientific standpoint, I'd say yes, but only on the basis that the pancreas has stopped producing insulin.
> 
> That's why, in my head, I tend to think of type 1's and type 2's and type MODY's as just variants of the same thing. It just all depends on how much insulin the pancreas produces (ranging from some to none) and what level of insulin resistance a person has.
> 
> Andy



Someone who has type 2 diabetes cant "turn into" someone with type 1 diabetes.    Type 1 diabetes has a totally different cause from type 2 diabetes and the other rarer types of diabetes.  Type 1 diabetes is a conditiions caused by the autoimmune destruction of the islet cells. In autoimmune diseases the immune system makes antibodies against part or parts of the body. If you have type 1 diabetes you make antibodies that attach to the beta cells in the pancreas. These are thought to destroy the cells that make insulin.  Type 2 diabetes is totally different.   Has totally different causes.   There are also other types of diabetes which are unrelated to type 1 or type 2 diabetes.

Though it's possible for people with type 1 diabetes to put on weight and have insulin resistance problems.


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## grahams mum (Feb 1, 2011)

Adrienne said:


> Excellent.  Unfortunately it is this type of discussion that gets out kids into trouble and bullied.   Type 1 and type 2 are different.   They are both serious and both need treatment.  Type 1 is always insulin and type 2 is a variety of stuff.   You can turn around type 2 but you cannot ever turn around type 1.
> 
> It is for this very discussion that both or one need to be renamed.   There is a stigma attached to type 2, which I do not agree with so don't get me wrong, but this stigma cannot in any way shape or form be attached to type 1 and people wrongly do and therefore our kids get called fat or that they have eaten too many sweets so its their fault and this is by teachers and nurses who should know better.



well done adrienne at the jdrf meeting in eastbourne one of the scientist there said type 1 and type 2 are not linked at all they are geneticly completly different


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## Adrienne (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> Ack! Hate it when people stigmatise conditions. Makes intelligent debate somewhat difficult.



Quite right but unfortunately this is what the wonderful (not) DUK have done.  They have managed to add on this stigma to type 2 which in turn by the media only ever stating 'diabetes' and not differentiating, it has caused a stigma for the whole word 'diabetes' and everyone is tarred with the same brush.    

I actually got really really upset and peeved that some on here (mainly you Andy ) saying that actually once type 2 were on insulin it could be the same.

Wrong


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

grahams mum said:


> well done adrienne at the jdrf meeting in eastbourne one of the scientist there said type 1 and type 2 are not linked at all they are geneticly completly different



No argument from me on that point! 

But I remain steadfastly fixed to my position that they are the same in the way they physically end up. The pancreas either produces no insulin, very little insulin or any range up to too much insulin. Insulin resistance then plays a part. Mostly in Type 2's but can also affect some unlucky Type 1's.

In that sense they are connected, but only in that sense. Not in how the condition developed in the first place (which I have now conceded).

Andy


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

Adrienne said:


> Quite right but unfortunately this is what the wonderful (not) DUK have done.  They have managed to add on this stigma to type 2 which in turn by the media only ever stating 'diabetes' and not differentiating, it has caused a stigma for the whole word 'diabetes' and everyone is tarred with the same brush.
> 
> I actually got really really upset and peeved that some on here (mainly you Andy ) saying that actually once type 2 were on insulin it could be the same.
> 
> Wrong



It is not my intention to cause any upset. I was having a conversation. I never claim to understand everything and like to be corrected when wrong.

I'm really sorry that you've been upset by this. 

Andy


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## shiv (Feb 1, 2011)

That's fine Andy, but another reason I like to make sure the types are differentiated is so that people are not put off from say, donating to JDRF if all they believe is that 'diabetes' is caused by being 'fat' and all the other rubbish the media like to promote. I want a cure for type 1 diabetes because that is what I live with. You'll find this is a big part of the reason the type 1 community is so pro-differentiating the different types of diabetes.

As type 1 diabetes is caused by the destruction of the beta cells, the other hormone produced by them (amylin) is also inhibited. Amylin is also used in the natural process of glucose control.


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## Adrienne (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> No argument from me on that point!
> 
> But I remain steadfastly fixed to my position that they are the same in the way they physically end up. The pancreas either produces no insulin, very little insulin or any range up to too much insulin. Insulin resistance then plays a part. Mostly in Type 2's but can also affect some unlucky Type 1's.
> 
> ...



But its a wrong position and no matter of arguing can make that statement right.    

Type 1 is type 1 and type 2 is type 2.

It is like saying a headache is the same as a migrane.  They are very different.   However you can take the same pain killers and you can lie in a dark room for both but they are different.   I get headaches but not migranes.

or

a cold is the same as an allergy that causes a runny nose.   Both have runny noses but they are very different but can be wiped with a hanky or tissue.

Just wrong.


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## Andy HB (Feb 1, 2011)

shiv said:


> That's fine Andy, but another reason I like to make sure the types are differentiated is so that people are not put off from say, donating to JDRF if all they believe is that 'diabetes' is caused by being 'fat' and all the other rubbish the media like to promote. I want a cure for type 1 diabetes because that is what I live with. You'll find this is a big part of the reason the type 1 community is so pro-differentiating the different types of diabetes.



Being a newbie to the condition, it is clear that I was unaware of all the nastier aspects of the process of stigmatising that seems to be going on. Now that I am better informed, I hope to moderate my own input into this forum.

Thanks for such an interesting discussion, everyone. I think I'll leave it there now.

Andy


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## Jon (Feb 1, 2011)

mcdonagh47 said:


> Nobody can "turn around" Type 2 Diabetes.
> Good control and preventative measuresis to ward off complications for as long as possible, is all we can hope for.
> 
> It's irresponsible of them to make such remarks.



You make it sound as if it's inevitable that complications will strike eventually
I would hope that with good control and preventative measures i will never have any complications.
I would like to think i will die from old age rather than a diabetes linked condition.
Maybe that's wishful thinking or is all my good work so far a waste of time


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## bev (Feb 1, 2011)

shiv said:


> That's fine Andy, but another reason I like to make sure the types are differentiated is so that people are not put off from say, donating to JDRF if all they believe is that 'diabetes' is caused by being 'fat' and all the other rubbish the media like to promote. I want a cure for type 1 diabetes because that is what I live with. You'll find this is a big part of the reason the type 1 community is so pro-differentiating the different types of diabetes.
> 
> As type 1 diabetes is caused by the destruction of the beta cells, the other hormone produced by them (amylin) is also inhibited. Amylin is also used in the natural process of glucose control.



Hi Shiv,
Very well said.
Andy, I am sure you did not want to offend anybody at all, but it must be remembered that whilst both conditions are called 'diabetes' - they represent very different ends of the spectrum and dealing with type 1 diabetes is exceptionally difficult and is a fine balancing act twenty four hours of the day and is extremely complex. I am not saying that dealing with type 2 diabetes is easy by the way, it is just different and the two should not be compared. Your opinion that they both end up the same is not correct either. Type 1's do not produce insulin (unless they are in honeymoon) - whereas type 2's do, in varying degrees - and that makes all the difference. People with type 1 have to try to replicate the pancreas and its output of up to two hundred pulses of insulin secretions a day - and that is no easy task I can assure you. And we have to try to do that with tools that sometimes are not up to the job and also cope with all the variables that are thrown at us. A type 1 child having a nightmare for example can send its levels up into the twenties - and this is difficult to deal with. That wouldnt happen with a person with type 2 as their bodies behave differently. Then throw in things like the weather, the temperature, adrenalin, and all the other variables that make type 1 diabetes so difficult to deal with and you could end up with chaos. 

That is why type 1 diabetes is considered such a complex condition to deal with as you are always pushed to the limit to try to work out why levels behave as they do and why it is so hard when people feel that if you just match the insulin to the food then 'voila' - easy.Bev


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## Adrienne (Feb 1, 2011)

Jon said:


> You make it sound as if it's inevitable that complications will strike eventually
> I would hope that with good control and preventative measures i will never have any complications.
> I would like to think i will die from old age rather than a diabetes linked condition.
> Maybe that's wishful thinking or is all my good work so far a waste of time



Haha no Jon, you carry on with your good work.   Hard work is what diabetes, 1 and 2 are all about unfortunately and the more work you put in the more benefits you can get out of it at the end of the day, hopefully.  Nothing is set in stone and we all just do our best. 

It is not inevitable that there will be complications.   My mum's uncle had type 1 and was on insulin for over 60 odd years or there abouts.   He died at the ripe old age of 90 odd a few years ago of cancer, not diabetes related at all.  He had no complications at all and worked hard with his food and carb counting and injections.


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## katie (Feb 1, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> Thanks for that, I didn't get around to seeing it on the telly.
> 
> Oh, by the way, the thought has just occurred to me that a Type 1 can still have some natural insulin production capability left (e.g. Northerner?).
> 
> Andy



I think that's officially Type 1.5 isn't it?



Andy HB said:


> Being a newbie to the condition, it is clear that I was unaware of all the nastier aspects of the process of stigmatising that seems to be going on. Now that I am better informed, I hope to moderate my own input into this forum.
> 
> Thanks for such an interesting discussion, everyone. I think I'll leave it there now.
> 
> Andy



I think the problem is that Type 2 is connected to being overweight whereas Type 1 has nothing to do with lifestyle as far as any scientists are aware. Most people diagnosed with Type 1 are skinny (As I was at the time ).  It is upsetting that a Type 1 person might be suggested to have brought it on themselves when it's as unavoidable as getting something like Crohns Disease or Lupus.  Whereas, in the majority of cases, Type 2 Diabetes is avoidable (may be inherited, due to age etc...).  They are completely different diseases in that aspect. I would personally be upset if people assumed I was overweight when diagnosed.


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## katie (Feb 1, 2011)

I have just watched the segment on This Morning. It was really well done, but I don't think Philip would let it be done badly!

How great was that type 2 guy? I hope I'd have his willpower if I had been diagnosed.  It's a shame the docs told him that he needed insulin, before telling him to lose the weight and eat better.

I love it when the doctor says 'being asian or afro-caribbean can slightly increase your chances, but you can't turn that around...'
Goodness, and I wouldn't want to turn that around


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## Keaver (Feb 1, 2011)

Um this thread has taught me far more than the books & DN has since I have been diagnosed.

Only rushed outside to check just now as my wife told me that 'T2' can be cured as per the 'This Morning' broadcast, to which I said don't be be daft..

So now I know that if you are Type 2, you stay Type 2 and do not move onto Type One 'as its a slippery downhill only slope' as I was told by my DN last year.

I wish my local GP's and DN's would update their information, makes a massive difference to my outlook on life!

Thank's to the forum as ever for being so informative.


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## katie (Feb 1, 2011)

Keaver said:


> Um this thread has taught me far more than the books & DN has since I have been diagnosed.
> 
> Only rushed outside to check just now as my wife told me that 'T2' can be cured as per the 'This Morning' broadcast, to which I said don't be be daft..
> 
> ...



Eeep, no. If any 'professional' says you will turn type one, they are an idiot. You can end up on insulin though. And you can probably avoid that in most cases with diet, exercise and/or pillls.


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## bev (Feb 1, 2011)

katie said:


> Eeep, no. If any 'professional' says you will turn type one, they are an idiot. You can end up on insulin though. And you can probably avoid that in most cases with diet, exercise and/or pillls.



Hi Katie,
Well said, and I think that it should be remembered that it isnt necessarily a 'bad' thing to end up on insulin for a type 2 - it just means you have a better method of controlling the levels which should, in turn, help to reduce the risk of complications.Bev


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## Heidi (Feb 1, 2011)

I live with both a Type 1 (my 13 year old son) and a Type 2 (my 71 year old dad). 

My dad is on insulin - he takes around 60u of Lantus every morning - background or basal insulin.

My son is of course on insulin too - he takes around 60u during the day - 16u Levemir in the morning, 10u Levemir at night and then during the day he injects Novorapid every time he eats. 


Type 2s do not take Novorapid (unless someone on here can point out otherwise). Type 2s need their pancreas to be 'supported' in its insulin production. My dad developed T2 when he was in his late 50s, he's never been obese or even particularly overweight. He was told he had 'old-age onset' diabetes. 

My son was diagnosed nearly one year ago. He's never, ever been fat or unhealthy. We have no idea why he became T1 - we of course know it's an auto-immune disease, but why he got it....no idea. 

My dad avoids eating too much sweet food and too many carbs. 

My son is 13 - have you seen how much 13 year old boys need to eat? He consumes a vast amount because he's growing and to keep him on a low carb diet would be impossible, if not dangerous. He stays away from lots of sweet stuff (when not hypoing) because he eats a reasonably healthy diet. 


Type 1 and Type 2 - not the same at all. 

Heidi


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## mcdonagh47 (Feb 1, 2011)

Heidi said:


> I live with both a Type 1 (my 13 year old son) and a Type 2 (my 71 year old dad).
> 
> My dad is on insulin - he takes around 60u of Lantus every morning - background or basal insulin.
> 
> Type 2s do not take Novorapid (unless someone on here can point out otherwise). Heidi



Of course Type 2 on basal/bolus insulin regimes take novorapid and combined with metformin B/B is an excellent regime for T2s.
Your dad's once-a-day Lantus is just a basic regime that is usually supposed to initiate full blown Basal/bolus over time. How does dad control his post prandial readings ?


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## Heidi (Feb 1, 2011)

mcdonagh47 said:


> Of course Type 2 on basal/bolus insulin regimes take novorapid and combined with metformin B/B is an excellent regime for T2s.
> Your dad's once-a-day Lantus is just a basic regime that is usually supposed to initiate full blown Basal/bolus over time. How does dad control his post prandial readings ?



Ah..that's interesting. 

Lantus once a day seems to suit him - his hbA1C was apparently 'good' according to his DSN but this same DSN is happy for him to stay around 10mmols all the time. 
And he also takes Metformin - I forgot to mention that - he has it with each meal. 

Since my son was diagnosed and we've learned so much more about diabetes in general (and how appalling our local hospital team is too...) I've been telling my dad to aim for around 6mmols. He doesn't seem to have too many spikes but then he eats long acting carbs, keeps them fairly low too. And as with my son the basal insulin is being slowly increased in response to the bg readings. 

Heidi


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## RachelT (Feb 1, 2011)

Little do the medical establishment realise, it was so much simpler when you were either insulin dependant or non-insulin dependant (some of the docs in my area still think this way, at least on discharge prescriptions).  All type ones take insulin, some type 2s take insulin. If you're type 2 i don't think there's anything to suggest that you can't get an infection and have the misfortune of having your immune system attack what's left of your insulin production cells..Besides, doctors get it it wrong fairly often, lots of us where the "other type" when we were first diagnosed and then the doctors changed their minds.
The impression i got was that typically type 2 diabetes gets "worse", or as the doctors say, it's degerative. Pushing your pancreas to produce more insulin (by taking Gliclazide and things that arn't metformin or the ----glutides) make it wear out, meaning that eventually you're be producing so little insulin that your treatment will resemble that of a type 1 diabetic. What you call yourself is up to you. 
Cheer up though, it might never happen. My grandfather has been diabetic for decades, but still isn't taking insulin. Maybe there's hope for me there, but in the end, i'll do whatever it takes.


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## Robster65 (Feb 1, 2011)

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be mandatory for doctors or DNs to keep up to date with current diabetes related research or even treatments. I would imagine their knowledge and attitudes are very much related to when and where they did their initial specialist training.

I only discovered through joining this forum last year that T2 was primarily a resistance condition, as opposed to the autoimmune induced T1. 

I was also under the impression that DUK attempt to educate the masses and the media with factual information, only for it to highly editorialised for maximum headline value (Daily Mail anyone ?) which may be where a lot of the misconceptions stem from. It only takes lazy journalism from there for TV presenters et al to repeat the wrongs and you have widely accepted myths which are hard to correct. 

Another interesting thread.

Rob

ps. I was never bullied as a kid because very few other kids had heard of it (including me).


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## HelenM (Feb 2, 2011)

Not  all type 1 is autoimmune,  a number  of children with 'obvious' t1  never test positive for  any autoimmune markers ... many aren't actually tested as there is no question at  the time of diagnosis. The official criteria from the World Health organisation has 2 sections  for t1:
1a (autoimmune) and the text mentions LADA as being in this category
Type 1b (idiopathic ie no one knows what caused it) ... there is one very specific type that often occurs in African Americans, that they mention  but it seems that there are others who are ketosis prone, have suffered beta cell destruction, are insulin sensitive but  have no evidence of autoimmunity


> *Table 2: Aetiological Classification of Disorders of Glycaemia**
> Type 1
> (beta-cell destruction, usually leading to absolute insulin deficiency)
> Autoimmune
> Idiopathic



The other Types mentioned in the document are:


> *Type 2 *(may range from predominantly insulin resistance with relative insulin deficiency to a predominantly secretory defect with or without insulin resistance)
> 
> *Other specific types *(see Table 3)
> Genetic defects of beta-cell function
> ...



MODY is an 'other' type being a genetic defect of beta cell function. Very occasionally I've read of other types being  called T3 (as they are detailed in table 3) so for example you can google type 3c diabetes and you will come up with some papers on 'pancreatic diabetes'


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## Adrienne (Feb 2, 2011)

Very true Helen.    That also still makes it very clear that type 1 is type 1 and type 2 is type 2 and now we have it in black and white.   Thanks for posting that.


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## Robster65 (Feb 2, 2011)

Can I be type 4 please ?

Wherein the pancreas regrows the beta cells and needs endless cheesecake to avoid being destroyed again 

Rob


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## Adrienne (Feb 2, 2011)

Robster65 said:


> Can I be type 4 please ?
> 
> Wherein the pancreas regrows the beta cells and needs endless cheesecake to avoid being destroyed again
> 
> Rob



Yes of course you can. I shall grant you your wish (waves magic wand) 
ta daaaaa, did it work.  Are you eating cheesecake with no effect !


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## Robster65 (Feb 2, 2011)

In my mind. YES !!! 

It was interesting to see that T2 can be a varying combo of resistance and low production of insulin. The low production was the classic case that I always thought of but then thought I was wrong and it was all about resistance. I'm pleased I wasn't completely delusional. 

I doubt I ever had a test beyond urine/blood glucose levels. Looks like they got it right though. 

Rob


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## xxlou_lxx (Feb 2, 2011)

I thought it was funny that after the whole segment on Diabetes they went on to show what was coming up... and it was geno and the little girl making chocolate mouse  it made me laugh cos i really wanted some! bahh!! hehe


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## Adrienne (Feb 2, 2011)

xxlou_lxx said:


> I thought it was funny that after the whole segment on Diabetes they went on to show what was coming up... and it was geno and the little girl making chocolate mouse  it made me laugh cos i really wanted some! bahh!! hehe



I take it this wasn't the morning he did his cooking naked then !


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## Alba37 (Feb 6, 2011)

Around a third of Type 2's end up on insulin, which is a massive amount of people!  Many are on mixes due to their age or quality of life, how would you teach a 70 year old to adjust insulin to carbs or put a 80 year old on 4 daily injections!?  Type 2 is a progressive condition and in many cases the cells in the pancreas eventually do wear out and treatment is exactly the same as a Type 1.  (Mixes, MDI or pump)  You can slow the progression of Type 2 if there is room to lose weight and become more active, but some people have Type 2 due to their genes and there is nothing they can do to slow progression.


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## Adrienne (Feb 7, 2011)

Hiya
Fancy meeting you here.   Was just about to launch into stuff and realised it was my old buddy from up there.   

You are 100% right, someone put that earlier but the question that was asked somewhere else was, type 1 is type 1 and type 2 is type 2, and a type 2 doesn't change into a type 1 if they go on insulin !   

So many older people are told they are now type 1 if they are on insulin.   The problem with that is the advice is wrong as you could potentially come off the insulin if that person lost weight (perhaps), changed lifestyle and started exercising, a number of stuff but could potentially come off insulin at some point due to immense hard work.   You could only tell that to a person with type 2 never to a person with type 1 so it is still different.

No matter though, it is not a competition as they are both as serious as each other anyway as are the other types.  

Hope you and the young one are ok.


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## AnnW (Feb 7, 2011)

As a type 2 I get raised eyebrows when I first see for example the dietician. I am not over weight and I exercise. I have to say I have been a bit overweight but never obese.
I am hoping with continued good diet and continued exercise that even at me age (66) I won't get too many complications ... although toes not good really.

When I tell anyone I have diabetes they say... but you're not overweight ,, have a chocolate !

This thread has been most interesting thanks everyone , Andy especially


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## Andy HB (Feb 7, 2011)

AnnW said:


> As a type 2 I get raised eyebrows when I first see for example the dietician. I am not over weight and I exercise. I have to say I have been a bit overweight but never obese.
> I am hoping with continued good diet and continued exercise that even at me age (66) I won't get too many complications ... although toes not good really.
> 
> When I tell anyone I have diabetes they say... but you're not overweight ,, have a chocolate !
> ...



Oh for goodness sake, don't encourage me! 

Too late! 

I was just leafing through the instruction booklet for my scales yesterday and it had an interesting section in it about visceral fat (i.e. that which surrounds the internal organs). This isn't something I normally do, I was just looking something up for lucy123.

Anyway, it was saying that someone may look perfectly 'normal', shape-wise, but still be 'overweight' because of this hidden visceral fat. It also claims (and I've heard this elsewhere too in the New Scientist and one or two telly programmes) that excess visceral fat can be associated with various metabolic disorders, diabetes included.

By the way, I'm not saying that you are overweight and don't know it Ann!


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## Adrienne (Feb 7, 2011)

Interesting Andy.  Luckily for me my fat is all visable and also luckily for me I'm not diabetic.   I guess this goes to show and prove that not all overweight people get type 2, which is why the info isn't that spot on is it.  I really think it is all about who has the make up in their body in the first place.  I know quite a few type 2's who are slim and fit.  

I had a big row with our old GP as he told me infront of Jessica that I would definitely get diabetes because I was fat !   I had to inform him that he meant type 2 and that it was a definite.  He was absolutely 100% positive that I would get type 2.  Obviously I would like to prove him wrong but I changed GP's within the surgery to see if we would fair any better.  Wrong !  We saw the head GP who wouldn't prescribe Jessica any hypofit unless we saw him.   So off we toddled only to be asked why she needed it, 'ummm because she is diabetic'.   We were asked why is she having hypos 'ummm because she is diabetic'  I felt I was repeating myself a little.   He then said well we better have a look at her levels and change things as she is obviously doing it wrong.

Oh dear god.  I told him in no uncertain terms we were under the best paediatric hospital in the Uk - to which he said do they know she has hypos yawn yawn.    I asked him if he had ever seen an insulin pump, he had no idea about any of it and had never ever seen one.    Needless to say we left the practice never to return.

I digressed and I'm sorry.

As Ann says though as a type 2, some people can better their lifestyle, even if they are not overweight and hopefully change things for the better.   Good luck Ann.


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## Copepod (Feb 7, 2011)

Further digression, but one effect of carrying too much weight (anywhere in body) is on load bearing joints, particularly hips and knees. 
Perhaps there is a parallel dicussion in the world of arthritis, where rheumatoid arthritis is largely autoimmune and can occur in younger people, even children, while osteo arthritis is more of a wear & tear condition, which tends to occur in older people, and earlier in people who are overweight or have had physically demanding jobs.


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## Adrienne (Feb 7, 2011)

Copepod said:


> Further digression, but one effect of carrying too much weight (anywhere in body) is on load bearing joints, particularly hips and knees.
> Perhaps there is a parallel dicussion in the world of arthritis, where rheumatoid arthritis is largely autoimmune and can occur in younger people, even children, while osteo arthritis is more of a wear & tear condition, which tends to occur in older people, and earlier in people who are overweight or have had physically demanding jobs.



Yep I'm sure you are right.   Weight is a bad thing and nothing good comes of it.  I'm doing all I can, except surgery, to shift my excess as I don't want to be a burden to my daughter if my ankles or knees go eek !


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## margie (Feb 7, 2011)

Andy HB said:


> I was just leafing through the instruction booklet for my scales yesterday and it had an interesting section in it about visceral fat (i.e. that which surrounds the internal organs).



There was a programme on the BBC a few weeks back where one of their presenters had a lot of visceral fat. He looked slim enough - but apparently a number of his thin relatives had died from heart disease, though they obviously didn't know it - it is now thought that they must have had visceral fat too.


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## Alba37 (Feb 8, 2011)

Adrienne said:


> Hiya
> Fancy meeting you here.   Was just about to launch into stuff and realised it was my old buddy from up there.
> 
> You are 100% right, someone put that earlier but the question that was asked somewhere else was, type 1 is type 1 and type 2 is type 2, and a type 2 doesn't change into a type 1 if they go on insulin !
> ...



Hello 

Ops, I thought I had said that they are 2 very different conditions and one never becomes the other even when a Type 2's pancreas packs in completely and a Type 2 becomes insulin dependant.  

I doubt many will come off insulin as by the time you get to that stage you are likely to have gone through all the treatments that wear out the cells anyway and also had Type 2 for some time.  They don't give insulin until it's totally necessary and it doesn't help resistance like Metformin and other pills do.  But I am not sure, will ask later today just out of interest and see what my DSN friend says to that question.  We all know nothing will bring islet cells back to life... yet!   

When I used to go to the clinic with Marc, by far the majority of the Type 2's in the waiting room were not obese.  A lot would probably be classed as overweight as it doesn't take much to get in that range... but 95% looked absolutely normal.  

I still think one of the conditions should get a change of name to stop confusing both conditions.  The debate goes on!


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## AlisonM (Feb 8, 2011)

I don't agree with Alba at all. While there are a good few different types of Diabetes and they all have different causes and treatments vary they are still diabetes. This is because, while the causes may differ, the effects don't. There are any number of diseases like this, and I don't see the problem with having one label.


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## Adrienne (Feb 8, 2011)

AlisonM said:


> I don't agree with Alba at all. While there are a good few different types of Diabetes and they all have different causes and treatments vary they are still diabetes. This is because, while the causes may differ, the effects don't. There are any number of diseases like this, and I don't see the problem with having one label.



Ah see I totally agree with Alba.   They should  be named differently.  This is an ongoing debate everyone.

The reason I want one of the types changed ie 1 and 2 need to be different is because all the bit DUK adverts ie silent killer and the measuring the waist one and the Change for Life adverts, they all just say diabetes and they all without a shadow of a doubt mean type 2.   

The knock on effect of those campaigns and TV programmes who don't differentiate is huge for the children with type 1.  I can't speak for adults but both Alba and I know many kids who are or have been bullied by their peers and other adults and indeed medical staff who know no better other than what the hear in these campaigns and TV programmes.

I had a nurse who was taking blood from my daughter who was 8 at the time say 'oooo diabetic, who ate too many sweets then'.   I refrained from punching her and I am not violent.   This was a nurse.   I said 'actually you are talking about type 2 diabetes, most children you see with by type 1 and it is not their fault at all that they have type 1 and nothing to do with sweets so please don't say that to any other child again.  Also if you read it properly would actually see that my daughter doesn't even have a pancreas !'

Needless to say I was fuming.    Other kids get it from their teachers 'oh no Jonny can't have that as he had too many already', you get the picture.

So whilst all diabetes is to do with blood sugar levels they are not the same as they are not contracted the same way and 1 and 2 are very different and therefore need to be called something every different.


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## sofaraway (Feb 8, 2011)

I am one against renaming the types. Where would I fit. I was diagnosed as a teenager and was slim and not insulin resistant at all, but I was able to be treated with diet and oral meds to begin with. It was caused by genetics. Now my diabetes has progressed and I need insulin and am getting a pump. 

So do I get to go in the it's wasn't my fault camp with the type 1's, or do i get put in the other group with the type 2's because I was initially treated with tablets and my diabetes isn't autoimmune? 

Not looking for an answer there, just want to highlight that I don't think it's that easy to just just change the names, there are so many people's diabetes that just isn't that clear cut. 

Those who have said that you don't change type are correct, but there are those rare type 2's that are so insulin deficient that they get ketotic and their diabetes can start to behave more like type 1.


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## Adrienne (Feb 8, 2011)

sofaraway said:


> I am one against renaming the types. Where would I fit. I was diagnosed as a teenager and was slim and not insulin resistant at all, but I was able to be treated with diet and oral meds to begin with. It was caused by genetics. Now my diabetes has progressed and I need insulin and am getting a pump.
> 
> So do I get to go in the it's wasn't my fault camp with the type 1's, or do i get put in the other group with the type 2's because I was initially treated with tablets and my diabetes isn't autoimmune?
> 
> ...




Yep I get that, essentially Jessica is the same, she has a genetic disorder called CHI and the removal of her pancreas means she is insulin independant.  She falls in the type 1 catergory.   You fall under MODY so you don't fall under type 2 at all.

There is not just 1 or 2, there is Mody, Lada and another one (but blowed if I can remember). 

I just think that type 1 needs remaining or maybe type 2 as that isn't autoimune yet the others are !    I don't know really, I just believe something should change.


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## sofaraway (Feb 8, 2011)

Adrienne said:


> I don't know really, I just believe something should change.



Difficult isn't it. I guess what would be ideal is that people's understanding about both type's and attitudes change. rather than having to change the names.


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## shiv (Feb 8, 2011)

sofaraway said:


> am getting a pump



 yay!


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## Adrienne (Feb 8, 2011)

sofaraway said:


> Difficult isn't it. I guess what would be ideal is that people's understanding about both type's and attitudes change. rather than having to change the names.



Yep totally agree but that ain't gonna happen any time soon I'm afraid. 

I missed the bit about the pump.  Wow.  Great stuff, I hope you will find things easier although I'm sorry your diabetes has progressed.


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## sofaraway (Feb 8, 2011)

Spoke to consultant's secretary yesterday and she said I had been approved but I am probably going to be starting in November! Bit gutted really as it seems so long away. Will make another call later this week to see if there is any chance of getting sooner, I was expecting 6 months which is what my consultant said and I accepted that. But I want to start as soon as the new animas pump comes out. We shall see what happens though.


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## katie (Feb 8, 2011)

Congrats on the pump Nikki. Gah, I'll be all on my own with injections soon


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## bev (Feb 8, 2011)

sofaraway said:


> Spoke to consultant's secretary yesterday and she said I had been approved but I am probably going to be starting in November! Bit gutted really as it seems so long away. Will make another call later this week to see if there is any chance of getting sooner, I was expecting 6 months which is what my consultant said and I accepted that. But I want to start as soon as the new animas pump comes out. We shall see what happens though.



Hi Nikki,
Wow - thats great news - I am really happy for you - hopefully you wont have to wait until September.Bev


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## Steff (Feb 8, 2011)

Nikki wonderful news r.e the pump so pleased for you x


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## Alba37 (Feb 9, 2011)

AlisonM said:


> I don't agree with Alba at all. While there are a good few different types of Diabetes and they all have different causes and treatments vary they are still diabetes. This is because, while the causes may differ, the effects don't. There are any number of diseases like this, and I don't see the problem with having one label.





sofaraway said:


> Difficult isn't it. I guess what would be ideal is that people's understanding about both type's and attitudes change. rather than having to change the names.



I have Type 2 and my son has Type 1.  My experience is many people have a basic knowledge of Type 2 but very very few people have any knowledge of Type 1.  They confuse it with Type 2 probably because they are both called diabetes. This confusion has made life very difficult for my son at times, and many other children with Type 1 diabetes.  LADA and MODY would leave most people completely puzzled I think, I don't think anyone would know what they were unless they were in the diabetic community.  

I think it's hard enough for kids to deal with a long term condition without added heartache due to misinformation from the general public and the only way people will ever get their facts right it by disassociating Type 1 and Type 2 in my opinion.  

Congratulations on getting a pump Nikki, great news.


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## Adrienne (Feb 9, 2011)

Alba37 said:


> I have Type 2 and my son has Type 1.  My experience is many people have a basic knowledge of Type 2 but very very few people have any knowledge of Type 1.  They confuse it with Type 2 probably because they are both called diabetes. This confusion has made life very difficult for my son at times, and many other children with Type 1 diabetes.  LADA and MODY would leave most people completely puzzled I think, I don't think anyone would know what they were unless they were in the diabetic community.
> 
> I think it's hard enough for kids to deal with a long term condition without added heartache due to misinformation from the general public and the only way people will ever get their facts right it by disassociating Type 1 and Type 2 in my opinion.
> 
> Congratulations on getting a pump Nikki, great news.



Absolutely, 100% agree.


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## bev (Feb 10, 2011)

Alba37 said:


> I have Type 2 and my son has Type 1.  My experience is many people have a basic knowledge of Type 2 but very very few people have any knowledge of Type 1.  They confuse it with Type 2 probably because they are both called diabetes. This confusion has made life very difficult for my son at times, and many other children with Type 1 diabetes.  LADA and MODY would leave most people completely puzzled I think, I don't think anyone would know what they were unless they were in the diabetic community.
> 
> I think it's hard enough for kids to deal with a long term condition without added heartache due to misinformation from the general public and the only way people will ever get their facts right it by disassociating Type 1 and Type 2 in my opinion.
> 
> Congratulations on getting a pump Nikki, great news.



Hi Alba,
I completely agree with you. Having one umbrella term for all the different types of diabetes is just not helpful or clear and does create confusion among the general public. If you think about it, if the diabetic community cant agree just how different the conditions are - what chance do the general public stand if the conditions are all called the same thing.Bev


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