# Are government about to do a u-turn after vaccine rollout?



## Amity Island (Apr 13, 2021)

This sounds like the government are hinting at a u-turn after the roll out of the vaccines. Saying it's NOT the vaccines that control the number of cases but the lockdowns.

Does this sound like more lockdowns are coming? It would make sense given I've always said, the whole thing has been driven by the green agenda, reducing CO2 emissions, reducing travel, closing businesses, bringing about a working from home, shop from home, eat at home and the Great Reset.









						COVID-19: Lockdown is main reason for drop in coronavirus cases and deaths - not vaccinations, says Boris Johnson
					

The PM suggests the millions of jabs given over the past few months was not key to the reduction in COVID levels.




					news.sky.com


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## Inka (Apr 13, 2021)

I think it’s just trying to ensure that people continue to be cautious. The vaccine roll-out is progressing fast, which is good, but we still need to be careful and social distance and wear masks, etc.

Also, the people who have been vaccinated so far are largely the more vulnerable like the older people and people like us with diabetes and other health conditions. So it’s likely these cohorts have been careful about contact anyway. That is, although the vaccines are great for those vaccinated, the people vaccinated so far are largely not the biggest spreaders of Covid. Therefore the Lockdown, which controlled the biggest spreaders, contributed more to the reduction in cases.

So no, I don’t think we’ll lockdown again for a while.


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## Leadinglights (Apr 13, 2021)

That seems logical as the people who have had the vaccine are still being cautious and until the under 50 age groups get vaccinated it has been the lockdown that has restricted all those not vaccinated from mixing in at risk situations.


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## Bruce Stephens (Apr 13, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> Saying it's NOT the vaccines that control the number of cases but the lockdowns.


No, I think it's reporting the reality but a bit oversimplified. What the PM might have said is that the fall in cases is pretty much all due to the restrictions but that there's some signs that deaths are falling faster in older people and some hints that that's also happening for cases. That's not really a soundbite, though.

I don't get the impression that experts are sure they can see the effects of vaccinations in cases just yet; probably the signal's there but it's still mostly the social restrictions. (It's also possible I'm out of date about this. I remember people a couple of weeks ago talking about possible signs of the effect of vaccinations and not being that confident about them yet.)

I think they're much more confident in Israel, but obviously there's some worry we might end up a bit more like Chile instead.

I think it's against CRG and the like who want to speed up the current roadmap. I doubt the government wants to slow it down unless something really dramatic happens. (An example would be this variant allegedly from South Africa which I assume is now widespread (though in low numbers). If it really does turn out that our vaccines work sufficiently poorly against it I could imagine them changing things a bit.)


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## Amity Island (Apr 14, 2021)

Bruce Stephens said:


> No, I think it's reporting the reality but a bit oversimplified.


Now imagine they had reported that "reality" 6 months ago, told us that the vaccines are not going to have much impact on covid19, that it's really the lockdowns and restrictions that do the work, how would that have effected the vaccine roll out? How would that of convinced people to take the vaccine?

All seems counter intuitive to me, against what we all believed about the purpose of the vaccines. 

They've been telling us that all the restrictions were needed to be in place UNTIL the vaccines are rolled out, now the vaccines are being rolled out, now telling us it's not the vaccines that help, but it's the lockdowns.

Somethings not right. 

This whole pandemic/lockdown hasn't sat right with me from the very beginning and this latest news has done nothing to convince me otherwise.


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## Inka (Apr 14, 2021)

@Amity Island What hasn’t sat right with you? You’re concerned and I’d be interested to know why and to follow your thinking. 

I feel we all see things through the lens of our beliefs. You mention vaccines being put forward as the answer and now not being the answer, but to me the message has been fairly consistent - get vaccinated but we’ll still need to take precautions. Even back in Dec 2020, scientists were saying that - that vaccines wouldn’t be an end to things yet. Part of the conflicting-sounding messages is down to the government’s incompetence, I feel.


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## Amity Island (Apr 14, 2021)

Inka said:


> @Amity Island What hasn’t sat right with you? You’re concerned and I’d be interested to know why and to follow your thinking.
> 
> I feel we all see things through the lens of our beliefs. You mention vaccines being put forward as the answer and now not being the answer, but to me the message has been fairly consistent - get vaccinated but we’ll still need to take precautions. Even back in Dec 2020, scientists were saying that - that vaccines wouldn’t be an end to things yet. Part of the conflicting-sounding messages is down to the government’s incompetence, I feel.


Tucker Carlson might explain it better. Seems the same u-turn is happening in US. I was under the impression the lifting of restrictions came as a result of the vaccines. To me Johnson is saying more lockdowns may be coming even after the vaccine rollout.


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## Inka (Apr 14, 2021)

Thanks @Amity Island I’ll watch that.

I had a quick Google and found this from early December:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/health/coronavirus-swiss-cheese-infection-mackay.html

There the vaccines are mentioned as being one more layer of the ‘Swiss Cheese’. That was before the vaccine roll-out.


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## Amity Island (Apr 14, 2021)

Inka said:


> Thanks @Amity Island I’ll watch that.
> 
> I had a quick Google and found this from early December:
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/health/coronavirus-swiss-cheese-infection-mackay.html
> ...


Hi Inka,

I'm as certain as I can be that the majority of people in the UK and around the world believed that the vaccines would get life back to normal. 

Would be interesting to do a poll on that question (Do you believe vaccine rollouts will get your life back to normal and allow the lifting of restrictions?) to put what I am saying into context.

n.b

Did anyone else on here think that was the case? Or is it literally just me and my imagination?


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## Amity Island (Apr 14, 2021)

Inka said:


> @Amity Island What hasn’t sat right with you? You’re concerned and I’d be interested to know why and to follow your thinking.


My thinking is; there is more to the lockdowns than just the virus. As I said in the post, I believe there are others things going on in the world besides the pandemic, like the 2020-2030 being the critical years to address climate change.


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## Bruce Stephens (Apr 14, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> Now imagine they had reported that "reality" 6 months ago, told us that the vaccines are not going to have much impact on covid19, that it's really the lockdowns and restrictions that do the work, how would that have effected the vaccine roll out? How would that of convinced people to take the vaccine?


You're reading much too much into my comment. The vaccinations (so far) aren't having that much impact on case numbers, since the vaccinations so far have been in the people who (for the most part) aren't spreading the virus that much.

They are having an effect on hospitalisations and deaths. (The fall in deaths was (a couple of months after they had been vaccinated) a bit faster in people over 65 than in the rest of the population.)

That doesn't mean that vaccinations won't, in the future, be significant in reducing cases. That depends on a large enough proportion of the population (including younger people, who are generally less vulnerable) getting vaccinated.


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## Amity Island (Apr 14, 2021)

Bruce Stephens said:


> You're reading much too much into my comment. The vaccinations (so far) aren't having that much impact on case numbers, since the vaccinations so far have been in the people who (for the most part) aren't spreading the virus that much.
> 
> They are having an effect on hospitalisations and deaths. (The fall in deaths was (a couple of months after they had been vaccinated) a bit faster in people over 65 than in the rest of the population.)
> 
> That doesn't mean that vaccinations won't, in the future, be significant in reducing cases. That depends on a large enough proportion of the population (including younger people, who are generally less vulnerable) getting vaccinated.


Hi Bruce,

Are you saying you've _never_ been under the impression vaccines would get things back to normal for those who have had a vaccine and that this is how you expected things would go? I think this is where we both see things differently. I certainly was under the impression vaccines would allow people to get back to normal.


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## Amity Island (Apr 14, 2021)

So now we are in the situation where the goverment are saying the vaccines aren't going to make much impact on covid19 and that it's the lockdowns that are the only way way to control the virus.

Now let me refer to this graph which I have refered to before. It's a graph from March 2020. It shows no evidence of any excess deaths before lockdown but a huge spike in deaths immediately after lockdown.

So do lockdowns work (as Johnson is saying?) If not (as graph shows) and vaccines don't do much either then where does that leave us?


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## Bruce Stephens (Apr 14, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> Are you saying you've _never_ been under the impression vaccines would get things back to normal for those who have had a vaccine and that this is how you expected things would go? I think this is where we both see things differently. I certainly was under the impression vaccines would allow people to get back to normal.


That's a slightly different question. I was hoping that the government would continue to regard mere infections as a bad thing (so pay attention to cases as well as hospitalisations and deaths).

I know that in the US the CDC has offered advice on what vaccinated people can safely do and perhaps we should adopt something similar. The catch is that they mean people who've had both doses (of the 2-dose vaccines), and I think our government has decided it's not so valuable for us to do that because of our 12 week gap between doses (so we don't have so many fully vaccinated people).


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## Amity Island (Apr 14, 2021)

Bruce Stephens said:


> I was hoping that the government would continue to regard mere infections as a bad thing (so pay attention to cases as well as hospitalisations and deaths).


That's what I thought would happen too. That provided all the deaths, hospitalisations and serious illness is prevented with the vaccines, then the number of cases would be un-important in terms of lifting restrictions, we've got to get back to living freely at some point.


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## Bruce Stephens (Apr 14, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> That's what I thought would happen too.


I mean the converse: I think reducing infections from this relatively new virus is sensible regardless, so we should not ignore case numbers. Regardless, the vaccines are really good but they're not perfect, so reducing infection levels will also reduce serious illness, hospitalisations, and deaths even if we had 100% of people vaccinated. (Though if we have 100% of people vaccinated then that would likely reduce infections dramatically anyway.)


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## Robin (Apr 14, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> Now let me refer to this graph which I have refered to before. It's a graph from March 2020. It shows no evidence of any excess deaths before lockdown but a huge spike in deaths immediately after lockdown


And I have commented to you before, that the average stay in hospital, or time lived fighting Covid is at least a month, often longer, so the rise in deaths has a time lag from the case rate surge.  I have heard Jonathan Van Tam say this several times in briefings.


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## Inka (Apr 14, 2021)

@Amity Island I watched all that video you posted. Although there are some sensible points eg about finding out more about the 6 women who reacted to the J&J vaccine, particularly whether they’d had Covid before, the style of the video was, to me, slightly reminiscent of all those conspiracy videos about non-Covid subjects on YouTube.

An example of that is the section which features video of Justin Trudeau. There’s the big build up about the vaccines being ineffective, not working, etc and oh look, here’s the _PM of Canada _saying the same thing _out loud! _But - he doesn’t. He just repeats what we all know - that vaccines aren’t 100% effective and that we’ll still need to maintain masks and social distancing for a while. But people won’t think that. They’ve been primed by the intro to see his reasonable comments as an admission of the vaccines not working. 

Manipulation and techniques like that obscure any valid arguments being made. Maybe it’s a cultural thing. 

I think we will get back to living freely. I went out this week and, apart from the masks, things were pretty normal.


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## Amity Island (Apr 14, 2021)

Inka said:


> I think we will get back to living freely. I went out this week and, apart from the masks, things were pretty normal.


I certainly hope so, but for me, what Johnson said seems to be pointing in the other direction.


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## Inka (Apr 14, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> Hi Inka,
> 
> I'm as certain as I can be that the majority of people in the UK and around the world believed that the vaccines would get life back to normal.
> 
> ...



I think they saw it as a massive step forward towards normal - and it is. I was excited to have a vaccine too, but then when you stop to think about it, you realise that that’s more complicated than it seems eg the U.K. is doing really well with its vaccination schedule, but globally the majority of people are still unvaccinated. So, quite apart from the fact the vaccine isn’t 100% protection, unvaccinated people can spread Covid, can move around and re-establish infection where it had previously been eradicated, etc.

So we’re on the path back to normality but that path isn’t short. There’s a lot to do to vaccinate everyone, to deal with variants of the virus, to set up and maintain systems that will jump on any resurgence and extinguish it quickly.

Added to that is, of course, the issue that some people in the U.K. and elsewhere are refusing the vaccine. That’s their right, but it’s not going to make the route to normality any easier or quicker.

That means it’s a vicious circle. They watch videos like the one above, take that as a conspiracy of some kind, wonder why we can’t get back to normal now we have the vaccines, then refuse the vaccine themselves making it slower to get back to normal, then see that very slowness as proof that ‘something dodgy’ is going on. And around we go.


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## Bruce Stephens (Apr 14, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> I certainly hope so, but for me, what Johnson said seems to be pointing in the other direction.


He's leading a Party with many members who want to speed up lifting the restrictions.

So the obvious explanation is that this is him pushing back and wanting to stick to the roadmap, in the hope that it really will be irreversible and that this really will be the last lockdown. I agree that kind of caution doesn't sit easily with his past behaviour, but it seems to me to be just uncharacteristic of him rather than impossible. That seems vastly more believable than some conspiracy involving climate change, anyway.


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## Docb (Apr 14, 2021)

I can't help but think that we are in another battle of the PR companies.  Those doing the lockdown will claim it was all due to them, those doing the vaccination will claim it was all due to them, the test and trace lot will say it was all due to them and I'm betting that even the flat earth society are claiming to have had something to do with it.  Reality is that lots of things have had some effect and I wish there was some sort of system to look at the data dispassionately and reach sensible conclusions about the relative effects of the various factors rather than having a who can shout the loudest contest.


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## Amity Island (Apr 14, 2021)

Robin said:


> And I have commented to you before, that the average stay in hospital, or time lived fighting Covid is at least a month, often longer, so the rise in deaths has a time lag from the case rate surge.


But there is no corresponding increase in hosptital admissions in the month before (the sudden spike in deaths after the lockdown on the 23rd March). So we have no excess deaths and no excess hospital admissions before the lockdown.


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## Amity Island (Apr 14, 2021)

Docb said:


> I can't help but think that we are in another battle of the PR companies.  Those doing the lockdown will claim it was all due to them, those doing the vaccination will claim it was all due to them, the test and trace lot will say it was all due to them and I'm betting that even the flat earth society are claiming to have had something to do with it.  Reality is that lots of things have had some effect and I wish there was some sort of system to look at the data dispassionately and reach sensible conclusions about the relative effects of the various factors rather than having a who can shout the loudest contest.


Hi DocB,

What do you make of the fact there were no excess deaths or excess hosptial admissions until 23rd March when lockdown was brought in? Does this not point to the fact lockdown caused the huge and sudden spike in deaths? If not what did?


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## Amity Island (Apr 14, 2021)

Bruce Stephens said:


> That seems vastly more believable than some conspiracy involving climate change, anyway.


What conspiracy? Climate change is real and I believe governments are doing what they can to tackle it, even if that includes using lockdowns for more than one reason.


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## Robin (Apr 14, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> But there is no corresponding increase in hosptital admissions in the month before (the sudden spike in deaths after the lockdown on the 23rd March). So we have no excess deaths and no excess hospital admissions before the lockdown.


You keep maintaining that lockdown caused the spike in hospital admissions and deaths. What do you make of the belief held by one section of society that we locked down a week too late and could have saved lives by doing it earlier? Have you looked at the case rate graphs? I notice you don’t post them. In the two weeks before lockdown, the U.K went from 321 cases on 9th March, to 1543 cases on 16th March to 6650 cases on 23rd March. An exponential growth if ever there was one, and all before lockdown.(source. Worldometers)


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## Robin (Apr 14, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> What conspiracy? Climate change is real and I believe governments are doing what they can to tackle it, even if that includes using lockdowns for more than one reason.


It’s not the fact of Climate change which is being called a conspiracy, but the conjecture that Governments all over the world are using the pandemic as an excuse to get their green credentials in order.


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## Amity Island (Apr 14, 2021)

Robin said:


> You keep maintaining that lockdown caused the spike in hospital admissions and deaths. What do you make of the belief held by one section of society that we locked down a week too late and could have saved lives by doing it earlier? Have you looked at the case rate graphs? I notice you don’t post them. In the two weeks before lockdown, the U.K went from 321 cases on 9th March, to 1543 cases on 16th March to 6650 cases on 23rd March. An exponential growth if ever there was one, and all before lockdown.(source. Worldometers)


Robin,

I was only responding to the reason you gave "that the average stay in hospital, or time lived fighting Covid is at least a month" for the reason the spike in deaths hit on the day of lockdown. There is no evidence to suggest that to be the case as there were no corresponding spikes in hospital admission a month prior.

Cases doesn't = deaths, nor does it mean people are ill with covid, nor does it mean they were in hospital, nor does it even mean they have symptoms or know they have it. That is why I try not to refer to "cases".


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## mikeyB (Apr 14, 2021)

You might ask why many Tory MPs want the lockdown eased faster than Boris. It’s our old friend eugenics. They have realised that the faster you ease lockdown, the more poor and BAME will die. It’s a freebie for racists and eugenicists. It’s not even a conspiracy theory that needs vocalising, they have to just sit and watch the numbers. It’s the elephant in the room.

I am not, by the way, suggesting that is the reason for most thinking folk who are anti-lockdown who ask rational questions.


Amity Island said:


> Hi DocB,
> 
> What do you make of the fact there were no excess deaths or excess hosptial admissions until 23rd March when lockdown was brought in? Does this not point to the fact lockdown caused the huge and sudden spike in deaths? If not what did?


You might equally ask how the excess death rate fell after the lockdown had been in place for some weeks. There’s always a lag. Mind you, this government has shown all through the pandemic that you can show anything in graphs. They gave up early on comparing infection rates in other countries, but never compared us to Australia and New Zealand (who demonstrated how to do it in an island country). Now they will bring it back to support their admirable vaccination plans. All part of the great pissing contest.

And meanwhile, infections and death rates are soaring exponentially in India and Africa, where lockdowns are impractical, and India is the world’s largest manufacturer of vaccines. While all that is going on, mutating forms of the virus could render all our prevention ability futile.


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## Docb (Apr 14, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> Hi DocB,
> 
> What do you make of the fact there were no excess deaths or excess hosptial admissions until 23rd March when lockdown was brought in? Does this not point to the fact lockdown caused the huge and sudden spike in deaths? If not what did?



My thoughts were entirely about the current position and the decline in everything over the last couple of months or so. The reason for the decline will be due to a mix of things and everybody and their father claiming that it was mostly due to their efforts alone is not particularly enlightening or helpful.


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## Bruce Stephens (Apr 14, 2021)

Docb said:


> My thoughts were entirely about the current position and the decline in everything over the last couple of months or so. The reason for the decline will be due to a mix of things and everybody and their father claiming that it was mostly due to their efforts alone is not particularly enlightening or helpful.


Of course it's a combination of things. The PM could have been more nuanced in his statement, but this government really likes messages that fit into three words (and not long words).

I think it's correct to say that the reduction in cases is mostly the restrictions rather than vaccination (as David Spiegelhalter said this morning, the reduction has mostly happened in people who hadn't been vaccinated). And I don't think anyone thinks test and trace is doing that much beyond the testing part.

John Burn-Murdoch (from the FT) produced some graphs approximating the impact of vaccines and lockdown (and other effects) (based on age, I think):


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1382013080448724994


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## Amity Island (Apr 14, 2021)

Docb said:


> My thoughts were entirely about the current position and the decline in everything over the last couple of months or so. The reason for the decline will be due to a mix of things and everybody and their father claiming that it was mostly due to their efforts alone is not particularly enlightening or helpful.


I know  I was just asking you, as you always have a balanced view on things and give a sensible considered opinion on things.


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## Amity Island (Apr 14, 2021)

Anitram said:


> Surely the purposes of a lockdown is simply to halt the spread? If people enter lockdown unvaccinated but emerge vaccinated, they are rejoining a world where the virus has been kept largely in check and they now have a degree of protection to stop it flaring up again.


Hi Anitram,

That's pretty much how I understood it all. That's why I was so suprised to see that interview, Johnson knocking the effectiveness of Vaccines on the pandemic, alluding to the fact that if there is a wave of deaths or hospitalisations it will require more lockdowns and/or restrictions again. I thought by vaccinating millions of the most vulnerable, this would avoid high number of deaths and hospitalisations and prevent further lockdowns and thus we can get back to life.


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## nonethewiser (Apr 14, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> This sounds like the government are hinting at a u-turn after the roll out of the vaccines. Saying it's NOT the vaccines that control the number of cases but the lockdowns.



Don't see it that way, combination of both, government know that mate.


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## Amity Island (Apr 15, 2021)

nonethewiser said:


> Don't see it that way, combination of both, government know that mate.


I think they do too, they must do, why bother vaccinating millions of people then say it's not the vaccines that are doing the work but the lockdowns. they might be "hesitant" about the efficacy of the vaccines and are pre-warning people that there may well be a up turn in hospital admissions and deaths? who knows. It just seemed like a very odd thing to say on international news.


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## Inka (Apr 15, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> I think they do too, they must do, why bother vaccinating millions of people then say it's not the vaccines that are doing the work but the lockdowns. they might be "hesitant" about the efficacy of the vaccines and are pre-warning people that there may well be a up turn in hospital admissions and deaths? who knows. It just seemed like a very odd thing to say on international news.



I’ve just watched the interview again. Boris says it’s “very, very important that people understand” that it’s the Lockdown that’s driven down deaths, etc and not the vaccines. He says that just after talking about people now being able to go to shops, hairdressers and the like. I guess he saw those absolute cretins pushing their faces together in pub gardens, hanging off each other and generally not making the slightest effort to socially distance. His words were a warning to them and to people who think like them to a lesser extent. His words as quoted above are code/politeness but I’ve put it more bluntly.


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## Amity Island (Apr 16, 2021)

Inka said:


> I’ve just watched the interview again. Boris says it’s “very, very important that people understand” that it’s the Lockdown that’s driven down deaths, etc and not the vaccines. He says that just after talking about people now being able to go to shops, hairdressers and the like. I guess he saw those absolute cretins pushing their faces together in pub gardens, hanging off each other and generally not making the slightest effort to socially distance. His words were a warning to them and to people who think like them to a lesser extent. His words as quoted above are code/politeness but I’ve put it more bluntly.


Hi Inka,

I still can't believe he came out with it. A couple of days after lifting restrictions. 

How will what he said help convince the remaining people to get vaccinated?

I'd say herd immunity must be very near? Plus it's end of what is normally flu season. Natural immunity as well. All these things will have had some impact on reducing cases too I'd of thought. But no mention of these, only lockdowns!


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## Amity Island (Apr 16, 2021)

Bruce Stephens said:


> He's leading a Party with many members who want to speed up lifting the restrictions.
> 
> So the obvious explanation is that this is him pushing back and wanting to stick to the roadmap, in the hope that it really will be irreversible and that this really will be the last lockdown. I agree that kind of caution doesn't sit easily with his past behaviour, but it seems to me to be just uncharacteristic of him rather than impossible. That seems vastly more believable than some conspiracy involving climate change, anyway.


Bruce,

It's no "conspiracy" it's out there if you want to look. It's very easy to dismiss something one doesn't believe or like, however, see this quote from our government last year. I think this is sufficient to convince anyone who is unaware of the green agenda (not conspiracy) that they are making the most of the current crisis to bring about further changes.

"The pandemic has painfully exposed our vulnerabilities. Whilst we remain committed to tackling its immediate impacts, we must also seize this opportunity to create greener, healthier, more inclusive and resilient economies and societies, and to accelerate progress towards the Sustainable Development Goals and Paris Agreement."









						Financing the 2030 Agenda through Covid-19 and beyond
					

Ministerial Meeting on Financing the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development in the Era of Covid-19 and Beyond




					www.gov.uk


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## Amity Island (Apr 16, 2021)

Matt Hancock said this in January 2021. (Very different to what Johnson said on Sky News this week).

"We begin 2021 knowing that vaccines are our way out of this pandemic."









						Statement from Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Matt Hancock on testing and vaccinations
					

Secretary of State for Health and Social Care shares thoughts on vaccines, testing and the R number.




					www.gov.uk
				




and this in February...

"the study shows "vaccines are the way out of this pandemic".









						Covid-19: Study showing Oxford vaccine slows virus spread 'superb' - Hancock
					

As results show the Oxford jab may cut transmission, the health secretary says it offers a "way out".



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Inka (Apr 16, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> Hi Inka,
> 
> I still can't believe he came out with it. A couple of days after lifting restrictions.
> 
> ...



Lockdown lifts, we have a vaccine and have been vaccinating people, so it’s all over, right? Off we go drinking, shopping, making up for the last few weeks because, hey, don’t you know, we have a vaccine now. All over. Covid’s finished.

Some people honestly think that.

So that’s why Boris gave his warning. He’s saying people can’t relax and just go right back to normal because although we have a vaccine, we’ve all been locked down for weeks and *that* is what’s reduced the numbers. Added to that, the main spreaders have NOT been vaccinated. Now they are ‘free’ again, they need to be told emphatically that the existence and use of the vaccine is NOT free rein to do as they please.


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## Inka (Apr 16, 2021)

Also, I think he mentioned Lockdown not the other things because that’s the opposite of what we’re just starting - undoing Lockdown and opening up again. Since Jan, it has been Lockdown that’s reduced spread. Vaccinated and unvaccinated alike were locked down.

I did read something about herd immunity and how close we were but I can’t find it now. It was part of a general article.

As regards encouraging people to get vaccinated, I don’t think Boris’s words will dissuade many people. Most people want the vaccine and the ones who don’t have made up their mind anyway. Herd immunity via vaccine would be a lot closer if those people had the vaccine.


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## Amity Island (Apr 16, 2021)

Inka said:


> Also, I think he mentioned Lockdown not the other things because that’s the opposite of what we’re just starting - undoing Lockdown and opening up again. Since Jan, it has been Lockdown that’s reduced spread. Vaccinated and unvaccinated alike were locked down.
> 
> I did read something about herd immunity and how close we were but I can’t find it now. It was part of a general article.
> 
> As regards encouraging people to get vaccinated, I don’t think Boris’s words will dissuade many people. Most people want the vaccine and the ones who don’t have made up their mind anyway. Herd immunity via vaccine would be a lot closer if those people had the vaccine.


I also can't see his comments making much of a case for bringing vaccine passports in when he says it's not the vaccines that work.


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## Inka (Apr 16, 2021)

Amity Island said:


> I also can't see his comments making much of a case for bringing vaccine passports in when he says it's not the vaccines that work.



It depends what the passports will be used for. I think they’re potentially a good idea.

It’s not that he said the vaccines don’t work, he said the main reason for squashing spread was the Lockdown. That started in Jan. Not many people were vaccinated then. So it was locking down that reduced cases and vaccines are helping us get on the way out of this. Both things are true.


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## Docb (Apr 17, 2021)

Must admit I am a bit surprised that you all seem to be looking for consistency in anything that Johnston comes out with. When he is not reading from a script he has a tendency to say whatever he wants to be true at the time.  Talking to farmers he will tell them that meat production is essential for the well being of the country, talking to the vegetarian society he will tell them that meat is killing people in droves.  I recommend you take the trouble to seek out an unedited, verbatim, report of any of these non scripted utterances and read them.  You will find them incoherent.  

He was a newspaperman and not a very good one at that, he was fired for making stuff up.  Getting something out was the only thing that mattered, consistency, logic and well thought through argument were never important.  I am afraid that those traits show up in most everything he does or says.


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## MAC2020 (Apr 17, 2021)

Docb said:


> He was a newspaperman and not a very good one at that, he was fired for making stuff up.



Is that the same as telling lies?


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## Docb (Apr 17, 2021)

MAC2020 said:


> Is that the same as telling lies?



More diplomatic to suggest that he would not make a reliable witness.


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## Amity Island (Apr 17, 2021)

Docb said:


> More diplomatic to suggest that he would not make a reliable witness.


Great answer @Docb


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