# Need help managing levels with running....



## rebrascora (Dec 20, 2020)

OK so I am trying to step up to slightly more formal running rather than the part jog and yomp 4 miles that I was doing. 

I have a nice little loop which takes me along my lane which is flat (ideal warm up), cross the main road and then I do a loop of about half a mile which incorporates quite a steep but relatively short hill and back down a more gentle gradient. I do the loop 3x at the moment and then extend my stride and pace a bit on the way back along the lane home (final 200yrds) I am only out about 10-15 mins at the moment but will be extending it as I get better/fitter 
My problem is that my BG shoots up to 13-14 after this exercise and is very slow to come down again. Both times so far I went out with a slightly higher reading ie 8 or 9 thinking that it would keep me safe (I have been naughty and running without my gear because I am never far from home and it is nice to be free of it) Also, didn't want to jab any insulin before heading out as I have been very sensitive to corrections injected before exercise and had plummeting hypos recently. 

This morning I woke up on a nice 6.4 but "Foot on the Floor" took me up to 9.1 before I got out of the door to run. Got back and still 9. Jabbed my bolus insulin for breakfast (3 units of Fiasp) then watched as my levels went up to 13 instead of coming down. It is 2 hours since I injected and I have come down to 9 again but really don't like to eat above 8, so my breakfast is still sitting here waiting and getting soggy! 

I am not running really hard or anything although the hill digs into the bottom of my lungs a bit, so it is a bit disappointing to be going so high afterwards. 
Yesterday it was midday when I went out and the same thing happened so not DP or anything. 
Should I consider injecting some Fiasp before I head out? Seems a little risky? Or should I choose a time when my levels are lower to start with before I go out? Or should I incorporate some lower energy exercise straight afterwards.... I did a short cool down and some stretches and then some sit ups today as tummy needs a bit of toning, but maybe I need to add a mile or three walk on the end of my run? 

Just wondering if anyone can suggest a strategy to try.

I am hoping to do this regime twice a day, so I am going to have plenty of occasions to experiment!


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## daducky88 (Dec 20, 2020)

Maybe i missed but perhaps you would benefit from.a slightly higher morning basal.  What happens if you dont go running? You mentioned your glycaemia rose by the time you got to the front door..had you lowered your basal or bolus in expectation of the run?


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## rebrascora (Dec 20, 2020)

My normal routine is that I inject 16 units of Levemir and 3-4 units of Fiasp as soon as I get up and then eat breakfast 45mins-1hr later. 1-2 units of the bolus deal with DP or Foot on the floor in my case. The 16 units of Levemir keeps me steady all day and if I use any more I hypo through the night even with zero units on a night.... I have tried 15 units of basal but I was going high through the day so 16 seems to be right. It is nearly a week since I knocked it down to 15 and then put it back up. It is only yesterday and today since I started doing this run that my levels have headed so high.   
My fasting reading this morning was 6.4 but FOTF brought me up to 9 by the time I left the house and I was still 9 when I came back but then it seems a liver dump occurred, which swallowed up the 3 units of Fiasp I injected after the run for my breakfast, so I went up to 13 and then came down to 8 and I have been on 8 ever since and still not eaten my breakfast because I know it will send me high and I didn't want to stack some more Fiasp on top. Now over 4 hour later and I gave in and jabbed another 3 units of Fiasp (checked that I definitely injected the previous and my morning Levemir and Echo pens confirm. In that 4 hour period I have walked half a mile to my yard, fed and mucked out 4 horses and come back and still sitting at 8! 
Just waiting for this second bolus to hit my blood stream and I will have my long awaited, now soggy, breakfast.

Hopefully that provides more insight.


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## rebrascora (Dec 20, 2020)

It just seems that I am going to have to bolus for my run as well as my breakfast and DP which I rather resent and seems counter intuitive but the run will bring my levels down tonight when I really don't want it to. I hypoed last night at 10pm after running at about 1pm yesterday, so a 9ish hour delay.


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## Paulbreen (Dec 20, 2020)

Wow Barbara this disease really is so fickle, I have the polar opposite effects as you when I exercise, I try to do 10km on my exercise bike every day but it always results in my BG going south, good excuse for a couple of sweets to avoid the hypo tho


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## rebrascora (Dec 20, 2020)

Thanks Paul.... Yes, I am feeling a bit kicked in the teeth with a 4-5 point increase which starts when I get back and lasts for many hours unless I inject insulin and even then 5 units yesterday took nearly 2 hours to bring it down to 7 where it then stuck and I was expecting to get to eat something within those 5 units. To be honest I was worried that the insulin and delayed response to exercise would combine and suddenly cause me to crash.... fat chance!

I am not a keen runner but I can see benefits to my physical and mental health from it, so I really would like to persevere. I am loving the definition I am getting in my thighs and calf muscles but not the significant increase in insulin usage and high levels! Granted I was stressed yesterday, but have felt much better today right from getting up, so most disappointing results and very consistent rise from the same exercise 2 days in a row at different times of day. If I was unfit, I might understand it but I am in reasonably good shape to start with. Going to try steady exercise straight after my run tomorrow as well as bolus before I set off for FOTF and see what that does. Might get out tonight and have a second attempt at it.

Not happy that my Libre TIR results are looking so shabby!


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## Inka (Dec 20, 2020)

I tried early morning exercise - ie before breakfast, no bolus - and it put my blood sugar up when usually the same exercise would necessitate a lowered basal (on pump) and a couple of Dextro or more.

It was the only time of day that happened, so I then simply didn’t exercise at that time. Instead i usually got up, bolused and had breakfast, waited a while to assess my blood sugar and exercised then.

I know that’s not an answer in a way but it’s what worked for me. I still managed to get out in good time but avoiding that ‘first thing’ time worked best and was much easier to deal with.


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## rebrascora (Dec 20, 2020)

Thanks @Inka 
I have been back out tonight and done the same route again at the same pace and not spiked, but there could be a number of other factors involved, like the previous exercise earlier in the day starting to have an impact and I had 2 units of correction insulin in my system that still had a 2-3 hour tail end of possible activity when I headed out and my liver might be feeling a bit depleted after chucking out so much this morning and not getting any payback (breakfast) until 2pm... although that took me back up to 10 even though I took normal breakfast bolus for it and I have been active most of the day on top of the 2 runs. Arrgh! Maybe I am still stressed about break-up but just not feeling it as acutely. 

Test run Number 4 tomorrow morning. Going to have normal 16 units of basal and depending upon my waking reading, 1 unit of Fiasp for FOTF (none if I am under 5.0, 1.5 if I am over 7) and see how I do on that. 
Not taking any basal tonight as I am likely to hypo after the activity of the day.


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## SB2015 (Dec 21, 2020)

Hi @rebrascora 

I found when I did more intense exercise, I would spike afterwards.
There is a good explanation for this in the Libre Webinar in exercise.

My solution which I know is a bit counterintuitive was to eat a small snack straight afterwards.  This seemed to stop my liver dumping a load of glucose to tape me up immediately after the exercise.  I would then reduce my insulin at the meal soon after to allow some of the glucose to fill out the depleted stores. 

As you know it is all so different for each of us.  I hope test run 4 works better.
I would recommend careful records of the many variables so that you can spot patterns and what works for you.  I look forward to hearing how things go


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## rebrascora (Dec 21, 2020)

Had a change of heart this morning when I woke up. Decided to have breakfast first after all. 
Woke up on 7.7 but started climbing straight away so jabbed 4.5 units Fiasp plus Levemir and waited for it to kick in. Stared eating at the usual time and usual breakfast but I am now hypo so waiting to come back up before I head out... Arrgh! Feeling a little stiff this morning, so only going to do one run today and just a walk later.


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## rebrascora (Dec 21, 2020)

Still not been out for my run as my levels dropped again and hovering around 4 at the moment. Just had some more carbs and a couple of handfuls of roasted peanuts to try to stabilise things.


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## cameron (Dec 30, 2020)

How's your running going, @rebrascora? Have you managed to find a strategy that works for you?

Like you I've decided to ramp up my running and I'm running every day now. Weirdly, my basal needs have increased and I'm spending more time in the hyper territory than I'd like (and expected). Hopefully I'll get things fine-tuned in a few weeks. I enjoy running, so I don't want to give up just yet.

Good luck with your battle!


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## rebrascora (Dec 30, 2020)

Hi @cameron 

Unfortunately I pinged a calf muscle when I was out running Christmas Eve so I have had to notch it down to a brisk walk. Tried a jog Boxing Day after a couple of days off but after 400yds it pinged again. Will wait until the New Year before trying again but my walking route is 1.5 miles up a steep hill to start and then on the flat before coming back down and I do it all at a very brisk "Yomp" so it is doing the job nicely and I now eat my evening meal much later... between 10 and 11pm (low carb with no bolus and that is keeping me from dropping low overnight without any evening basal. (Go to bed on 8 and wake up on 4 or 5. I have had a week of really good consistent in range fasting readings now, so really happy with how it is going. Just one night in the last 7 when I woke up hypo and had to take a couple of JBs but went straight back to sleep and that was the night I ate my evening meal earlier and then walked afterwards, so exercising at 8-10pm and then eating afterwards seems to be working really well for me. 
I am really enjoying the walking (probably more than running) and the hill really provides muscle burn and lung expansion so it is doing the job for me in the mean time.

Odd that your basal needs have increased. I wonder if that is just short term and will reverse. My levels have stopped going high now, but that may be because I am walking rather than running. My Libre clocked me 96% TIR this morning for the past 7 days so I am absolutely delighted with that and I seem to have found a routine that really works for me.

Good luck figuring out a strategy for yours.


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## BigMalc (Dec 30, 2020)

I do think this shows how we all differ and it takes a while to work out how it works for each individual.  My running is a case in point - if i go steady only with no efforts and really just a gentle jog, then my numbers will trickle down slowly as I always expected.  But if I put any effort in, as I am wont to do on most runs then my numbers also shoot up for an hour or tow, but then plummet, so it is a balance between a bit more Novorapid before I go out and then not as much with any post run food.

I tend not to take anything with me unless going long, but do test as soon as back home/at the car and snack as needed, though when wearing the Libre the phone can scan if I feel weird rather than just knackered!


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## cameron (Dec 31, 2020)

Your time in range is fantastic, you're doing so well! A shame you had to drop the running for now, but it's maybe a blessing in disguise if you've found walking suits your diabetes better. I hope your calf recovers soon.

Same thing happens to me, @BigMalc. Today I set off for quite a hard run, and my Libre shows my levels shot up quite high halfway through the run. Blood test was 5.8mmol/L when I got home. My levels usually trickle down, like you say, during gentle jogs and long walks.


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## belugalad (Jan 2, 2021)

Hi Barbara I wish I had the courage to try and have a run.I haven't had a walk for a couple of weeks as I've been feeling fed up but I've missed it and I think it's been b,ad for me losing that structure to my day,so I'm going to start again tomorrow.I l have a brisk walk like you and it does make you feel good doesn't it,it also makes me feel less guilty for sitting about during the day.Saying that, I think it does build up my energy levels.I'm looking forward to sunnier mornings and it getting warmer as I love my walks then.
​


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## everydayupsanddowns (Jan 4, 2021)

Sounds like you are a bit trapped with your basal @rebrascora 

Your Lev almost certainly will have run out overnight, and the morning dose probably takes 30 or 45 minutes to get going so at least part of your FHTF is probably that... but it seems like much Lev at night risks you dipping hypo in the early hours 

Would you be interested in a pump? so you could have a tiny trickle that then ramps up an hour or two before you get up so it’s already up and running when you rise.

Hope you find a solution that works for you.


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## rebrascora (Jan 4, 2021)

everydayupsanddowns said:


> Sounds like you are a bit trapped with your basal @rebrascora
> 
> Your Lev almost certainly will have run out overnight, and the morning dose probably takes 30 or 45 minutes to get going so at least part of your FHTF is probably that... but it seems like much Lev at night risks you dipping hypo in the early hours
> 
> ...


My FOTH is easily taken care of with Fiasp on a morning as soon as I get out of bed so that isn't a problem as such Mike and with a current TIR of 94% for the past 14 days with 3% above and 3% below (yes that is over the festive period... although granted I wasn't overly festive) I could not justify a pump and I hate the idea of all the plastic waste they create. Libre is quite bad enough! 
My night time hypos have pretty much stopped now that I am walking instead of running (I pulled a calf muscle Xmas eve which put paid to running for now) although I still need the odd JB or 2 occasionally in the later early hours (usually 5am ish) even though my morning Levemir is pretty well run out then and no evening Levemir used. If I don't run or walk for a couple of days I have to start introducing evening Levemir and evening bolus.. I had 1unit of Levemir last night and probably could have done with 2 but I was playing it safe. I have walked today so will probably not inject any insulin tonight.

I quite like the fact that the exercise enables me to become "part time" insulin dependent, so I just inject insulin in the morning and maybe a 1 or 2 unit correction in the afternoon occasionally and can then usually get away with no more injections for the rest of the day providing I eat low carb. For me that really takes a lot of the relentlessness away and makes management so much easier, but I would prefer not to have any night time lows, even though they are easy to fix, particularly with the aid of Libre.


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## rebrascora (Jan 4, 2021)

belugalad said:


> Hi Barbara I wish I had the courage to try and have a run.I haven't had a walk for a couple of weeks as I've been feeling fed up but I've missed it and I think it's been b,ad for me losing that structure to my day,so I'm going to start again tomorrow.I l have a brisk walk like you and it does make you feel good doesn't it,it also makes me feel less guilty for sitting about during the day.Saying that, I think it does build up my energy levels.I'm looking forward to sunnier mornings and it getting warmer as I love my walks then.
> ​


Hi Alan
Lovely to hear from you. Sorry that you have been struggling to get out for exercise but I hope that my thread has inspired you although the weather conditions at the moment with black ice are by no means ideal. I am really finding a good brisk walk of 5 or 6 miles is helping enormously with my diabetes management and mental health, so I would really encourage you to push yourself a bit to form a habit. I am now at the stage that I feel a bit panicky if I can't fit it in... I was going out at 8pm but the ground has been so icy that I have had to turn back the last couple of days and then I feel agitated! Had a god walk today but got hit by two wicked wintery storms one of which was head on and froze my face with horizontal sleet and hail. It felt god to be out though!
Are you still cycling to the shops or are you shopping online now?


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## belugalad (Jan 5, 2021)

rebrascora said:


> Hi Alan
> Lovely to hear from you. Sorry that you have been struggling to get out for exercise but I hope that my thread has inspired you although the weather conditions at the moment with black ice are by no means ideal. I am really finding a good brisk walk of 5 or 6 miles is helping enormously with my diabetes management and mental health, so I would really encourage you to push yourself a bit to form a habit. I am now at the stage that I feel a bit panicky if I can't fit it in... I was going out at 8pm but the ground has been so icy that I have had to turn back the last couple of days and then I feel agitated! Had a god walk today but got hit by two wicked wintery storms one of which was head on and froze my face with horizontal sleet and hail. It felt god to be out though!
> Are you still cycling to the shops or are you shopping online now?


Hi Barbara yes I'm still cycling to the shops,but have quite a lot of food in so I haven't been out as often as I was in the past,I go out late at night to the shops so it's quiet and wear 2 good masks .I prefer not to go out when it's wet so winter brings it's problems and I then have to go to expensive Sainsburys.I'm just going out now for my brisk walk that's measured 2.25 miles,I was doing that twice a day and couldn't wait to get out but I've had a few aches over the last couple of weeks but this is the 3rd day back on it,but I'm only doing it once a day.
You're 5 or 6 miles is epic,you must have stamina,country girls are tough though aren't they
The mental health benefits are great though as you say,it gives me fresh air and a sense of freedom,I enjoy meeting folks down the park and seeing a smile,just to be able to say hello to the dog walkers means a lot to me as my mother says very little and I can't see my son now,and I only get a grunt from him on the phone.It's so frustrating he only lives 2 streets away,but he's over 18 now and he has a sister that's at school so it's too risky for him to visit me even if he was allowed.
It remains to be seen how effective these vaccines are going to be,particularly now that they are being administered in a different fashion as to what was recommended by the makers.We have 8 carers entering our house every day so it's a worrying time


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## rebrascora (Jan 5, 2021)

Good to hear you are managing to get out Alan and I know what you mean about even just exchanging an "hello" or a smile with people that you pass. It always makes me sad when I say hello and the person just keeps their head down and grunts or ignores me. It doesn't happen very often but it makes me wonder how desolate their lives are when they can't even manage a "Hello" or a smile.
I am finding the icy weather challenging but I will go out in the rain as long as it isn't lashing it down. You do feel better when you come into a nice warm house and get changed out of your damp clothes. Having animals, I have to go out in bad weather anyway, so it is just part of life but I am looking forward to some brighter. longer days. These cold, dark, damp, icy short days are a bit of a slog but I find going out for my walk on an evening in the dark not unpleasant as long as it's not too slippery and I stick mostly to roads which are lit. I now have 2 or 3 different routes all involving steep hills which I can power up to give my lungs and muscles a work out. I am guessing your area may be pretty flat?


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## belugalad (Jan 5, 2021)

rebrascora said:


> Good to hear you are managing to get out Alan and I know what you mean about even just exchanging an "hello" or a smile with people that you pass. It always makes me sad when I say hello and the person just keeps their head down and grunts or ignores me. It doesn't happen very often but it makes me wonder how desolate their lives are when they can't even manage a "Hello" or a smile.
> I am finding the icy weather challenging but I will go out in the rain as long as it isn't lashing it down. You do feel better when you come into a nice warm house and get changed out of your damp clothes. Having animals, I have to go out in bad weather anyway, so it is just part of life but I am looking forward to some brighter. longer days. These cold, dark, damp, icy short days are a bit of a slog but I find going out for my walk on an evening in the dark not unpleasant as long as it's not too slippery and I stick mostly to roads which are lit. I now have 2 or 3 different routes all involving steep hills which I can power up to give my lungs and muscles a work out. I am guessing your area may be pretty flat?


Hi yes pretty much flat,I use a park in Warwick that has a river walk.I'm going to enjoy the sunny mornings in a couple of months when it get's warmer.You certainly are full of  spirit,your energy really does jumps off the page when I read about your exploits


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## NotWorriedAtAll (Jan 29, 2021)

I started exercising properly the first week in January.
Up until then I'd been sporadically doing some cycling on my exercise bike but not really doing anything other than moving my legs up and down for half an hour or so because my exercise bike is only a cheapy one but it was better than nothing. I saw good results on my blood sugars but no slimming down effects of any significance and not a huge amount of improvement in my general day to day stamina.

To begin with I was doing about twenty minutes in total over a day in little bursts because that is all I could manage and my blood sugars were just pootling along as 'normal' in the 5-6.4 range with the odd 7 if I ate a bit more than usual in a meal or forgot to drink enough water and sometimes first thing in the morning. That is fairly standard for me.

Then gradually my exercise level and time increased and now I am doing 90 minutes of vigorous exercise in two bursts and using around 350 calories.
My blood pressure is now around 100/70 which is loads better than it was and I feel great.
But my blood sugar levels are stuck around the 6.9 mark sort of like they were first thing in the morning.
Should I have a little snack after exercising? Because that works in the morning to get the levels down again.
I'm really enjoying my exercise - it is lots of fun and I want to do more if anything but I am a bit unsettled about what is going on with my blood sugars.
I'm sticking to my keto way of eating and if anything I'm eating less than I was before as my appetite is less and I am keener on exercising now than visiting the fridge.


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## DiaWolf (Feb 16, 2021)

A great topic that shows how many things can effect our blood sugars and how we differ as individuals. I suppose it is finding exercise types that work for you, meaning achieves your personal goals, keeps glucose levels that you are happy with and can manage throughout your daily routine. Running isn't the be all and end all, you can work just as hard walking as you can running. 

Happy moving people, how ever you do it!


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