# A broad church - low carb is not the only way



## everydayupsanddowns (Feb 12, 2021)

Just a gentle reminder to members that our forum is supposed to be a friendly and supportive place, which encourages members to find their own way through the available options to find a diabetes management approach that meets their ambitions, and is appealing and sustainable for them.

While there may be some common ground between approaches, there is no one way that works for everyone, and is appropriate for every situation. Specifically carbohydrates are not inherently ‘bad’, and should not be unfairly demonised any more than any other macronutrient. Some people *will* have a very low tolerance for carbohydrates, and may need to be particularly careful, and that's absolutely fine if it's the apporach that works for them, but that isn't necessarily the case for everyone. _Everything in moderation, except laughter_ as AlanS used to say.

Former admin @Northerner has previously expressed this much more eloquently, but it feels worth repeating. Be kind to each other. And share your own experiences, but be gentle and sensitive to other views and approaches. Thanks for keeping the forum a friendly and helpful place.

We have had a few occasions recently where a conflict has occurred because of inappropriate advice being given, particularly when given to new members. I just wanted to make clear that the approach to dealing with these posts is to use the Report option so that the Moderators can be alerted to them and act accordingly - we get a red flag on our screens and this can then take us directly to the post in question, plus your reasons for reporting it, so we can act on it. Confronting members giving the advice in the thread can lead to unhelpful conflict that the new member will certainly not wish to see on their thread and leave a tangle of posts for the Moderators to sort out, or if that can't be done sensibly, the thread closed - which is the last thing we want to see.​​What do I mean about 'inappropriate advice'? This is advice that seeks to instantly pitch the new member into some drastic dietary or lifestyle changes that may simply upset or worry them more and leave them even more confused than they were before they posted. There are, of course, many strategies for managing diabetes, particularly Type 2, but our approach here should always be to reassure the new member and provide them with information and strategies that will help them understand how diabetes affects them personally and guide them to sustainable management of their condition. It's a bit of a cliché, but diabetes really is a marathon, not a sprint - there is no point in going off hell for leather for the first 'mile' and then collapsing in a heap with 25 miles left to go because no-one explained how to train yourself properly to manage the whole distance.​​We are not against diets such as LCHF and Atkins (for example) by any means - they have proven extremely successful for a lot of people - but they are not the only solution, nor are they necessary for a lot of people. I appreciate that some people may have instantly turned to radical changes and found it worked very well for them, but until you know much more about your audience, you should not assume it will work for them - and may possibly be dangerous, since you can't possibly know what other issues a person may have.​​The Moderators will assess and act on any reported posts, however well-meaning they are intended to be (and I know that the majority are only posted with the best of intentions).​​This is a good community, and it is important that all members do their best to keep it friendly, informative and supportive, thank you ​


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## Ditto (Feb 12, 2021)

That's why I like to read the menu thread because we're all diabetic but we all eat so differently it's fascinating.  

YMMV at all times.


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## Lucyr (Feb 13, 2021)

Thanks for saying this. I think one thing that I’ve recently had personal experience of that members often don’t realise, is that sudden radical changes, especially where the member has a high a1c, can cause retinopathy. This has recently happened to me with a 24 point drop in a1c.

New members will very rarely be aware of this risk and so it’s absolutely vital that us more experienced members encourage new members to make gradual changes to their diet and lifestyle, finding a diet that works for them over time and not making sudden changes that could cause them more problems. As said above, the best diet is the diet the individual can maintain for life and that is different for every person.


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## Kaylz (Feb 13, 2021)

If this is anything to do with my comment on someone's post I wasn't pushing low carb (and wouldn't due to my past of developing an eating disorder due to the pushiness of low carb on here) I was just suggesting things that would make them feel fuller for longer and it just so happened they were low carb xx


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## everydayupsanddowns (Feb 13, 2021)

Kaylz said:


> If this is anything to do with my comment on someone's post I wasn't pushing low carb (and wouldn't due to my past of developing an eating disorder due to the pushiness of low carb on here) I was just suggesting things that would make them feel fuller for longer and it just so happened they were low carb xx



Not at all @Kaylz. 

This isn’t directed at anyone in particular, more a suggestion that the *way* any suggestions are made from people’s own experiences is softened, particularly for new members, and also takes account that very low carb may be an approach that doesn’t appeal, doesn’t work, or has already been tried by some posters.


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## Leadinglights (Feb 13, 2021)

I am new on here but in my months of browsing I have always thought how patient and sympathetic people are in their replies but refreshing that sometimes the responses don't beat around the bush when people are not taking their situation seriously. I know some people are a lot more fragile and sensitive when receiving their diagnosis but they will get lots of support here especially as G Ps are exhausted with coping with all the consequences of Covid and are struggling to offer help.
I have just seen the title of a new book (unrelated to diabetes) 'No one can change your life except for you' but I thought it could easily apply.


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## Vonny (Feb 13, 2021)

Lucyr said:


> Thanks for saying this. I think one thing that I’ve recently had personal experience of that members often don’t realise, is that sudden radical changes, especially where the member has a high a1c, can cause retinopathy. This has recently happened to me with a 24 point drop in a1c.
> 
> New members will very rarely be aware of this risk and so it’s absolutely vital that us more experienced members encourage new members to make gradual changes to their diet and lifestyle, finding a diet that works for them over time and not making sudden changes that could cause them more problems. As said above, the best diet is the diet the individual can maintain for life and that is different for every person.


This is one of the reasons I wish I'd found this forum before I completely ditched the simple carbs! Fortunately my drastic reduction doesn't seem to have had any adverse effect on my eyes. The reason I stopped eating all forms of spuds, bread, pasta and rice was that my ex (with whom I am still friends) lost shedloads of weight by giving these up. When I realised how much I weighed at diagnosis, I just stopped eating them. Had I been aware of the above I'd probably have been a bit kinder to myself and reduced them gently instead of rushing in like a bull in a china shop!


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## Leadinglights (Feb 13, 2021)

I think in hindsight I may have reduced by carbs rather too quickly as I am having a few vision issues but I thought that as my HbA1C was only 50mmol/mol so not dreadfully high, that reducing carbs to less than 70g per day would not be a problem and wasn't aware at the time it might affect eyes. I came down to 42 mmol/mol in 3 months which didn't seem quick compared to some people's achievements. But I suppose it was my own decision to do that.


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## SueEK (Feb 13, 2021)

Well said @everydayupsanddowns sensitive and tactful as always


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## Loobyloo (Feb 13, 2021)

Vonny said:


> This is one of the reasons I wish I'd found this forum before I completely ditched the simple carbs! Fortunately my drastic reduction doesn't seem to have had any adverse effect on my eyes. The reason I stopped eating all forms of spuds, bread, pasta and rice was that my ex (with whom I am still friends) lost shedloads of weight by giving these up. When I realised how much I weighed at diagnosis, I just stopped eating them. Had I been aware of the above I'd probably have been a bit kinder to myself and reduced them gently instead of rushing in like a bull in a china shop!


Completely agree Vonny Hcp need to advise people on this even if they have no time to give full guidance on diets etc. I did the same as you and hope no damage done.


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## rebrascora (Feb 14, 2021)

Loobyloo said:


> Completely agree Vonny Hcp need to advise people on this even if they have no time to give full guidance on diets etc. I did the same as you and hope no damage done.


Most HCPs advise against low carb diets and tend to promote the "Eat Well" plate. Many of them have no idea that low carb diets are as effective at lowering BG levels as they are because they rarely get feedback from people who follow them because they know the GPs and nurses frown upon them. You can't really blame them for not warning people about something that they have probably not foreseen as a problem. If you follow their "Eat Well" guidance your BG will likely not reduce dramatically anyway. 
Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of low carb but I don't think you can pillory HCPs for not warning you of something that you do contrary to their advice. Maybe we need to be blaming ourselves/each other for being too evangelical about low carb.... which I guess is the crux of this thread.


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## Lilian (Feb 14, 2021)

Lucyr said:


> Thanks for saying this. I think one thing that I’ve recently had personal experience of that members often don’t realise, is that sudden radical changes, especially where the member has a high a1c, can cause retinopathy. This has recently happened to me with a 24 point drop in a1c.
> 
> New members will very rarely be aware of this risk and so it’s absolutely vital that us more experienced members encourage new members to make gradual changes to their diet and lifestyle, finding a diet that works for them over time and not making sudden changes that could cause them more problems. As said above, the best diet is the diet the individual can maintain for life and that is different for every person.


When I was first put on insulin the nurse explained to me that they want me to reduce HbA1c gradually because of that very reason.    Pity they are not told this at the same time as being diagnosed.


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## Inka (Feb 14, 2021)

Demonising food groups isn’t sensible. It can also be off-putting to some casual lurkers here - both the evangelical tone of ‘one true diet’, and the limited options for people who like to eat a few carbs, have read other diets that can help diabetes, or have a particular dietary requirement.

I also don’t like the idea of shaming people for, for example, eating porridge. It’s unhelpful and upsetting for some people. It’s also relevant that many people who are diagnosed with diabetes have a feeling of shame and self-blame anyway. Also, eating disorders are more prevalent in people with diabetes, and some of the comments I’ve read here and elsewhere could be the little shove that pushes someone over into an eating disorder.

Moreover, diabetes isn’t the only thing we should be thinking about. It’s no good having a great HbA1C if you’re increasing your risk of heart problems. Read the statistics - they’re scary.

Finally, LCHF is not the only diet out there and there are plenty of other diets that should be mentioned as options if people want to explore them. We’re all different and one size doesn’t fit all.

Thank you for this thread @everydayupsanddowns


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## Bloden (Feb 14, 2021)

Lilian said:


> When I was first put on insulin the nurse explained to me that they want me to reduce HbA1c gradually because of that very reason.    Pity they are not told this at the same time as being diagnosed.


My endo didn’t warn me. My optician told me.


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## Drummer (Feb 14, 2021)

Carbs aren't demonic, they are simply dangerous in this context.
I do not - I hope - evangelise, I tell people how I managed to have normal levels and encourage working towards a similar outcome using the same methods of trying testing and trying again.
Eating a few carbs is not at all limiting, not in my experience - and who would be shaming anyone who finds that they can eat porridge?
Eating high carb foods and seeing high teen consequences a little later, well of course I would say something, how could I not? 
With my father's mother dying from the consequences of diabetes mellitus when I was a youngster, I know what some people might face - one of the people on the course with me just after diagnosis was on the same path - and I really ought to have spoken to him then, not waited as he has since lost his lower leg. If I seem rather enthusiastic, there are very good reasons for it, I can assure you of that.


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## Inka (Feb 14, 2021)

But that’s the conflation, isn’t it @Drummer ? Of course, achieving a good blood sugar is crucial, but that doesn’t by default mean avoiding all carbs, nor is ‘dangerous’ a better word than ‘demonic’.

You’ve chosen a diet that suits you and that’s great, but there are other options for diet. Carbs aren’t inherently demonic, dangerous, evil or bad. To me, it’s just the equivalent of demonising fat.


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## travellor (Feb 14, 2021)

Inka said:


> But that’s the conflation, isn’t it @Drummer ? Of course, achieving a good blood sugar is crucial, but that doesn’t by default mean avoiding all carbs, nor is ‘dangerous’ a better word than ‘demonic’.
> 
> You’ve chosen a diet that suits you and that’s great, but there are other options for diet. Carbs aren’t inherently demonic, dangerous, evil or bad. To me, it’s just the equivalent of demonising fat.



I'm good with carbs.
They certainly aren't dangerous in any context to me.

And I agree testing is good, but like everything,  constant testing to check, check, check, and live in fear of a rise seems to be self defeating, and to me that seems to be diabetes once again driving you for life.

I don't test to any great degree any more, I did initially, now I'm happy with my annual hba1c, and happy that I have no diabetic complications. Diabetes has left my life, in every way, not just in a rise in BG.


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## Drummer (Feb 14, 2021)

Ah well - there we must agree to differ.
I must correct you on the 'avoiding all carbs' description - that is a complete exaggeration and it is also not true.
I have chosen a diet which suits many.
I am intrigued by your vocabulary and use of descriptions such as demonic, evil and evangelising. They would have got you marked down at the school debating society I enjoyed.


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## Inka (Feb 14, 2021)

Drummer said:


> Ah well - there we must agree to differ.
> I must correct you on the 'avoiding all carbs' description - that is a complete exaggeration and it is also not true.
> I have chosen a diet which suits many.
> I am intrigued by your vocabulary and use of descriptions such as demonic, evil and evangelising. They would have got you marked down at the school debating society I enjoyed.



Both “demonic” and “evangelising” were words used in this thread before I entered it @Drummer .... I simply repeated the words. You used “dangerous”. Carbs aren’t inherently dangerous. Nor evil, bad or any other synonym. Labelling them as such is wrong, as is labelling any other food group similarly.

Your diet might suit many, as you say, but the case is that other diets might suit many people too.


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## Leadinglights (Feb 14, 2021)

Drummer said:


> Carbs aren't demonic, they are simply dangerous in this context.
> I do not - I hope - evangelise, I tell people how I managed to have normal levels and encourage working towards a similar outcome using the same methods of trying testing and trying again.
> Eating a few carbs is not at all limiting, not in my experience - and who would be shaming anyone who finds that they can eat porridge?
> Eating high carb foods and seeing high teen consequences a little later, well of course I would say something, how could I not?
> With my father's mother dying from the consequences of diabetes mellitus when I was a youngster, I know what some people might face - one of the people on the course with me just after diagnosis was on the same path - and I really ought to have spoken to him then, not waited as he has since lost his lower leg. If I seem rather enthusiastic, there are very good reasons for it, I can assure you of that.


I have always been told I was at risk of diabetes as my father passed away at only 52 from a heart attack complicated by diabetes when I was 13, he was a lifelong vegetarian but in those days his diet was very carb based with bread and potatoes with cheese and eggs, and plenty of salads and other veg. So of course many of the foods he could have had for the diabetes he couldn't as a vegetarian. There was a nut based product called nut meat brawn which I remember as being vile but he seemed to like it. 
We are now hearing the success stories of people who have taken their condition seriously but it is all to easy to take one's eye off the ball.


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## Lucyr (Feb 14, 2021)

Drummer said:


> Carbs aren't demonic, they are simply dangerous in this context.
> I do not - I hope - evangelise, I tell people how I managed to have normal levels and encourage working towards a similar outcome using the same methods of trying testing and trying again.
> Eating a few carbs is not at all limiting, not in my experience - and who would be shaming anyone who finds that they can eat porridge?
> Eating high carb foods and seeing high teen consequences a little later, well of course I would say something, how could I not?
> With my father's mother dying from the consequences of diabetes mellitus when I was a youngster, I know what some people might face - one of the people on the course with me just after diagnosis was on the same path - and I really ought to have spoken to him then, not waited as he has since lost his lower leg. If I seem rather enthusiastic, there are very good reasons for it, I can assure you of that.


I don’t think this post is asking people to be less enthusiastic about their choice of diet. It’s asking people to recognise that being too enthusiastic can come across as unsupportive. Newly diagnosed diabetics are frequently made to feel at fault by whoever diagnosed them, and can often be given little information or support from the NHS. I think what new people often need most is to feel they have some support, to know that it’s not all their fault, and to help them feel confident in their ability to make changes to improve their health.

It’s just asking people to think of the way we give suggestions or experience, and whether what we write will come across as a post that encourages and supports someone in finding their own path, or whether it comes across as encouraging them to suddenly make an overwhelming amount of change all at once, and at a time when they’re already confused and overwhelmed.


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## travellor (Feb 14, 2021)

Inka said:


> Both “demonic” and “evangelising” were words used in this thread before I entered it @Drummer .... I simply repeated the words. You used “dangerous”. Carbs aren’t inherently dangerous. Nor evil, bad or any other synonym. Labelling them as such is wrong, as is labelling any other food group similarly.
> 
> Your diet might suit many, as you say, but the case is that other diets might suit many people too.


I disagree with the "many" to be honest. I think it's a very few, but it's a very loud evangelistical  few. That's why I gave up on this forum, for a few years. It was simply hard work.


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## Eddy Edson (Feb 14, 2021)

travellor said:


> I disagree with the "many" to be honest. I think it's a very few, but it's a very loud evangelistical  few. That's why I gave up on this forum, for a few years. It was simply hard work.


That's the way Internet echo chambers form. A few voices posting frequently => "The way we do things here" => join the club or move along. 

How many newbies are clued up enough to realise that just because there's a group of people posting confidently & didactically & often, it doesn't mean that they have any qualifications or any true insight into anybody's circumstances except their own. 

Frequent posters on this forum are certainly not a representative sample of the diabetic population, at least when it comes to T2D, and almost certainly not a representative sample of T2D's who have dealt with the problem. They are not "experts", and I think this should be made clearer to newbies.


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## JJay (Feb 15, 2021)

I think most posters to the forum have the best of intentions but some can, I'm sure unwittingly, come across as somewhat judgmental and/or patronising.  

I would like to see "this works for me - it may work for you" rather than "this is what you need to do".


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## Becka (Feb 15, 2021)

travellor said:


> I disagree with the "many" to be honest. I think it's a very few, but it's a very loud evangelistical  few. That's why I gave up on this forum, for a few years. It was simply hard work.



When I was first diagnosed I thought it could be helpful to find an online community, found the red site, and did not last a week because it seemed to be more like a cult, attacking people who did not accept their truth.

I found this site last year when I needed advice after being unable to get help from my G.P. and it did feel a lot different.  It seemed welcoming where people offered experience and advice but did not push anything in particular.  But then after a while it started to become frustrating including, though still nothing like the red site, more people presenting a "virtually eliminate carbs or nothing will help" position.  Quite probably the problem was it did not suit me personally, but it seemed less inclusive and welcoming so now I just visit occasionally.


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## Inka (Feb 15, 2021)

That’s sad @Becka I like reading your posts. You always have something interesting to say.


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## helli (Feb 15, 2021)

For me, managing my diabetes is about balance. As well as balancing the amount of insulin I dose to the food I eat and the exercise I do, it is about balancing the impact I am willing diabetes to make to my life. 

I am sure I could get even better control - less highs and lows - if I ate low carb, accurately counted every carb I put in my mouth, undertake exactly the same exercise every day, avoid stressful situations at work, hide away so I don't catch a cold (a bit easier during lockdown), avoid alcohol, etc. but for me that is not a life I want to live. 

One of the wonderful things about this community is the huge variety of members we have. For some, doing the same exercise every day is a perfect life, for some the stressful situations I find myself in at work would be frightful, others may consider my occasional nights down the pub (when they are open) with my friends and a few bottles of wine unnecessarily frivolous. These are all things that affect our diabetes just like diet does. 

I chose my life balance and I hope the forum gives the guidance to others to chose the balance that suits them.


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## Leadinglights (Feb 15, 2021)

Technical question
When I click on* like* it comes up with You in the list of likes, what am I doing wrong?


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## Inka (Feb 15, 2021)

Leadinglights said:


> Technical question
> When I click on* like* it comes up with You in the list of likes, what am I doing wrong?



Nothing - that’s telling you that you Liked the post. I’ll Like your post now and you’ll see my Like with my name but i’ll see it as “You” (because it’s telling me that I liked it)


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## Leadinglights (Feb 15, 2021)

Inka said:


> Nothing - that’s telling you that you Liked the post. I’ll Like your post now and you’ll see my Like with my name but i’ll see it as “You” (because it’s telling me that I liked it)


Thanks
Sue


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## Drummer (Feb 15, 2021)

Inka said:


> Both “demonic” and “evangelising” were words used in this thread before I entered it @Drummer .... I simply repeated the words. You used “dangerous”. Carbs aren’t inherently dangerous. Nor evil, bad or any other synonym. Labelling them as such is wrong, as is labelling any other food group similarly.
> 
> Your diet might suit many, as you say, but the case is that other diets might suit many people too.


I absolutely agree with you there - carbs are not inherently dangerous. 
But evil and bad are not synonymous with the word dangerous. 
I do not label them as such. I advise control, testing, know your limits, the classic behaviours of the sensible.
I will never describe anything to do with the deterioration and treatment of my grandmother, nor her eventual death - but seeing the person from the so called diabetes education sessions who had had his lower leg amputated struck me to the heart. 
Whatever you eat, be sure that it is doing you no harm.


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## helli (Feb 15, 2021)

Drummer said:


> Whatever you eat, be sure that it is doing you no harm.


If you read and believe everything, it is hard to find anything to eat that does no harm. 
I think it is about understanding the harm it may do and make an informed decision. 
For me, moderation is the key to this. 
And not stigmatising food - the idea of "bad" food leads to feelings of guilt and, potentially eating disorders. 

For example, alcohol can certainly do me harm but I chose to drink it understanding the risks, avoiding drinking to excess (whatever that means) and not drinking every day. 
I do this because I enjoy the feeling alcohol gives me and the taste.


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## Drummer (Feb 15, 2021)

helli said:


> If you read and believe everything, it is hard to find anything to eat that does no harm.
> I think it is about understanding the harm it may do and make an informed decision.
> For me, moderation is the key to this.
> And not stigmatising food - the idea of "bad" food leads to feelings of guilt and, potentially eating disorders.
> ...


Exactly.
Read all, believe little.
There is nothing to replace your own experience, but then - the same can be said of your own feet, eyes or liver.


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## Inka (Feb 15, 2021)

Which is why @helli mentioned moderation and balance...



Drummer said:


> I absolutely agree with you there - carbs are not inherently dangerous.
> But evil and bad are not synonymous with the word dangerous.
> I do not label them as such. I advise control, testing, know your limits, the classic behaviours of the sensible.
> I will never describe anything to do with the deterioration and treatment of my grandmother, nor her eventual death - but seeing the person from the so called diabetes education sessions who had had his lower leg amputated struck me to the heart.
> Whatever you eat, be sure that it is doing you no harm.



Yes, we all choose the diet that we hope will do us no harm. The point is that there are *many* potential diets that could fulfill that criterion and - again - no food group should be demonised not even “in this context”, as you phrased it earlier.


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## Newbie777 (Feb 15, 2021)

everydayupsanddowns said:


> Just a gentle reminder to members that our forum is supposed to be a friendly and supportive place, which encourages members to find their own way through the available options to find a diabetes management approach that meets their ambitions, and is appealing and sustainable for them.
> 
> While there may be some common ground between approaches, there is no one way that works for everyone, and is appropriate for every situation. Specifically carbohydrates are not inherently ‘bad’, and should not be unfairly demonised any more than any other macronutrient. Some people *will* have a very low tolerance for carbohydrates, and may need to be particularly careful, and that's absolutely fine if it's the apporach that works for them, but that isn't necessarily the case for everyone. _Everything in moderation, except laughter_ as AlanS used to say.
> 
> ...


Hello,

This is very interesting and as a new member I have been loads of helpful advice.

I am not an expert and if I can would like to repay the favour by trying to help others.

However, in most of my posts I do indicate my personal experience and also to mention for the person to speak with a GP/DN just in case there may be other medical history.

I have never found anybody's approach or advice not friendly and yes some people do have different approaches and if that works for them, who am I to argue.

Some people like myself it is a wake up, others may or may not need it, but a gradual approach with understanding is far more important, and it can be trial and error.

i don't get offended, I am from up North and life is too short.

I will get off my soapbox now, but personally I don't find people views or approach difficult and it is not being forced, as the saying goes you can take a horse to the water..


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## Kaylz (Feb 15, 2021)

helli said:


> And not stigmatising food - the idea of "bad" food leads to feelings of guilt and, potentially eating disorders.


Exactly this!  xx


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## trophywench (Feb 15, 2021)

Becka said:


> When I was first diagnosed I thought it could be helpful to find an online community, found the red site, and did not last a week because it seemed to be more like a cult, attacking people who did not accept their truth.
> 
> I found this site last year when I needed advice after being unable to get help from my G.P. and it did feel a lot different.  It seemed welcoming where people offered experience and advice but did not push anything in particular.  But then after a while it started to become frustrating including, though still nothing like the red site, more people presenting a "virtually eliminate carbs or nothing will help" position.  Quite probably the problem was it did not suit me personally, but it seemed less inclusive and welcoming so now I just visit occasionally.


I got banned from 'Red' fairly early on by stating that Low Carb was not the only way to go, IMHO there were other less drastic ways of dealing with T2 depending on how much change a person's diet actually needed .....  Ooops.  I'm still banned, tried re registering there a few times when I've wondered what it's like these days but as soon as I enter my email address it tells me again 'You're banned!'

No loss as far as I'm concerned.


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## nonethewiser (Feb 16, 2021)

trophywench said:


> I got banned from 'Red' fairly early on by stating that Low Carb was not the only way to go,



You & many more my dear. 

Place started off as broad church make no mistake, remember it from early days. Not just non lc who get hard time, heaven forbid your vegetarian vegan as soon be hounded out or made unwelcome.

This forum so much better, mixture of folk who deal with condition own way & friendly to one another, helps having better organised admin team who don't allow intimidatory  tactics to happen, so all for keeping this place one broad church.


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## grovesy (Feb 16, 2021)

There are a few members who are on both!


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## helli (Feb 16, 2021)

trophywench said:


> I got banned from 'Red' fairly early on by stating that Low Carb was not the only way to go, IMHO there were other less drastic ways of dealing with T2 depending on how much change a person's diet actually needed .....  Ooops.  I'm still banned, tried re registering there a few times when I've wondered what it's like these days but as soon as I enter my email address it tells me again 'You're banned!'
> 
> No loss as far as I'm concerned.


My understanding of the data protection act is that unless you have given permission they cannot store personal data about you. Therefore, they should no longer be able to identify you to know that you are still banned. 
When I was banned, I requested all my data was removed. I can now return if I desired. 
As you say, no great loss though.


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## Annette&Bertie (Feb 16, 2021)

everydayupsanddowns said:


> Just a gentle reminder to members that our forum is supposed to be a friendly and supportive place, which encourages members to find their own way through the available options to find a diabetes management approach that meets their ambitions, and is appealing and sustainable for them.
> 
> While there may be some common ground between approaches, there is no one way that works for everyone, and is appropriate for every situation. Specifically carbohydrates are not inherently ‘bad’, and should not be unfairly demonised any more than any other macronutrient. Some people *will* have a very low tolerance for carbohydrates, and may need to be particularly careful, and that's absolutely fine if it's the apporach that works for them, but that isn't necessarily the case for everyone. _Everything in moderation, except laughter_ as AlanS used to say.
> 
> ...


so well put!


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## HenryBennett (Feb 16, 2021)

Becka said:


> When I was first diagnosed I thought it could be helpful to find an online community, found the red site, and did not last a week because it seemed to be more like a cult, attacking people who did not accept their truth.
> 
> I found this site last year when I needed advice after being unable to get help from my G.P. and it did feel a lot different.  It seemed welcoming where people offered experience and advice but did not push anything in particular.  But then after a while it started to become frustrating including, though still nothing like the red site, more people presenting a "virtually eliminate carbs or nothing will help" position.  Quite probably the problem was it did not suit me personally, but it seemed less inclusive and welcoming so now I just visit occasionally.


Your last sentence strikes a chord with me and I’ve been rolling it around. I can unequivocally say that I’ve benefited greatly from being a member of this forum. The majority of people are empathetic, polite and helpful. But as with anything on the internet, especially social media, there is a minority that are overly assertive and frequently rude. I tend to drift away and then come back again. I’m much happier on here now that I’ve decided to use the “ignore” feature. It’s the same small handful of individuals who take offence at general comments, know everything and are very vocal. So now I can enjoy interacting with those who believe in live & let live.

BTW, what is the “red site” that a number of people have referred to?


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## Drummer (Feb 17, 2021)

Diabetes.co.uk - but there is a black option for those who find the red too red.


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## HenryBennett (Feb 17, 2021)

Drummer said:


> Diabetes.co.uk - but there is a black option for those who find the red too red.


Roger. Thx.


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## Kaylz (Feb 18, 2021)

I see even after this thread being created it hasn't changed much and low carb is still being forced and the no you can't eat that is still going on


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## helli (Feb 18, 2021)

Kaylz said:


> I see even after this thread being created it hasn't changed much and low carb is still being forced and the no you can't eat that is still going on


I guess that's what the "Report" button is for but I am often reluctant to use that in case I am being overly sensitive so chose the "Ignore" button instead for members who have different views to mine wrt _the danger of carbs_.


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## Lucyr (Feb 18, 2021)

Kaylz said:


> I see even after this thread being created it hasn't changed much and low carb is still being forced and the no you can't eat that is still going on


Kaylz I know the thread you mean and I’d encourage you to read it again. Whilst there is the one extremist cut food groups out response (I will continue to flag these for admin review) the rest of the responses were heartwarming, and I wanted to post here to say thank you. Multiple posters on that thread, including some who eat very low carb themselves, giving a friendly welcome, advising moderation and sustainable slow changes to bring high bgs down slowly. There were far more great responses than not, so to those people, thank you


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## Lucyr (Feb 18, 2021)

helli said:


> I guess that's what the "Report" button is for but I am often reluctant to use that in case I am being overly sensitive so chose the "Ignore" button instead for members who have different views to mine wrt _the danger of carbs_.


I think it’s okay to use it for a second opinion if you have concerns over unsafe advice being given.


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## Newbie777 (Feb 18, 2021)

Kaylz said:


> I see even after this thread being created it hasn't changed much and low carb is still being forced and the no you can't eat that is still going on


I think going on the low carb diet does have it benefits and downsides too.

One question to ask is are you doing this short term or long term? Again there are fors and againsts.

Me personally it's short term, eventually I want to eat  a bit more carbs but also continue enjoy my food which is absolutely vital for me.

Slow gradual steps will help maintain the momentum, massive instant changes are not for everyone, but I do actually agree on why they may needed  like for me, so I don't lose my eyesight!

Also, I have think that if you eat what some would classify the wrong food or if you BG goes high for a day, so what!! If it has brought you some happiness( and not worry) and it's not something you will want to do everyday then that should be fine should it not? 

I am now aware of carbs and have a  rough idea, but am not bothered if I have 5 tomatoes in my salad as opposed to 3. It's been a massive change for me as carbs was my total comfort, but to go very low in carbs is not for me, but everyone to their own.

Let's enjoy life and share the love, we are all in this together.


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## Kaylz (Feb 18, 2021)

@Lucyr I was referring to the certain individual, nobody else, I'm fed up after the same pushiness led me to develop an eating disorder so it winds me up more than it may other people, there is no need for it and nobody thinks what it may do to the person, the person that did it to me absolutely ruined my life and I would never want anyone to go through what I did because of someone's comments xx


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## ianf0ster (Feb 18, 2021)

David Davis finally comes clean about his non-alcoholic fatty liver and his weight loss on Low Carb.
It was always rumoured that David Davis had followed Tom Watson into a Low Carb way of eating.
Today he confirmed it:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...ls-low-carb-diet-helped-transform-health.html


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## AndBreathe (Feb 18, 2021)

Kaylz said:


> I see even after this thread being created it hasn't changed much and low carb is still being forced and the no you can't eat that is still going on


For me a broad church approach means *in*clusiveness, not excluding something one might personally find unpalatable - whether diet, exercise, medication, weight loss, or colour of socks.

People will talk about what worked for them, and in my world that's a lot more positive than talking a lot about what appears to have failed them.

For those interacting over the internet, they have a choice what they read, whom they agree with and how they deal with unpalatable messages.  The Report button exists to allow a fresh set of eyes to read any given contribution to assess fair play and rigour.

I can't think how, interacting over the internet anyone can e forced to do anything they don't want to.  All they have to do is step away from the keyboard, or seek information elsewhere.


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## Kaylz (Feb 18, 2021)

AndBreathe said:


> I can't think how, interacting over the internet anyone can e forced to do anything they don't want to. All they have to do is step away from the keyboard, or seek information elsewhere


it's different to someone newly diagnosed though isn't it? Installing the fear of god in them by saying this is no good, that's no good, this may happen if you carry on eating that, oh that problem you developed is your own fault cause you ate that, I didn't WANT to develop an irrational fear of carbs but because of someone's comments on here I did, I was new, scared and they had been diagnosed years, people need to think what their comments "may" do to someone as  well as saying what foods they eat "may" do to them


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## travellor (Feb 18, 2021)

helli said:


> I guess that's what the "Report" button is for but I am often reluctant to use that in case I am being overly sensitive so chose the "Ignore" button instead for members who have different views to mine wrt _the danger of carbs_.



There will always be the evangelicals who will bombard any post at any opportunity,
The problem with simply ignoring them, is that eventually the do seem to be the loudest, and possibly only voice, and other methods to treat diabetes become lost in the shouting.

If you do actually read the link being claimed as a success for the low carb diet above, it's quite laughable.
It's actually a low calorie diet, and it's been suggested by many that don't low carb as a good start on here.

"My next experiment was to cut out alcohol"

" I had been taking four sugars in tea. Then there was my taste for potatoes, rice and bread. All the carby white foods had to go."

"I didn’t find myself falling into the trap of substituting more calorific fatty foods to make up for lost carb calories."

So by his own admission, he stopped drinking, stopped eating white carbs, didn't replace it with fat, and lost weight by cutting the calories, and adopting a healthy Mediterranean style diet reading the article.

I do find many so called "low carb" claims of proof simply cherry pick out of other diets successes.

Sometimes putting a counterpoint to some posts can be more useful to others than ignoring it for me.


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## Leadinglights (Feb 18, 2021)

The main message that comes over to me as a relative newbie to the site is that everybody is different and no one size fits all, so what approach works for some people will not be suitable for others and will not work for them whether that be because of their own metabolism or intolerances to certain foods or ethical or religious beliefs, or other health conditions or their personal circumstances. But the main thing is that they should receive support for their chosen route by guidance about diet and foods. These are hard times for many people at the moment and a diabetes diagnosis can be the last straw. Equally people do need to take their situation seriously and try to make some changes to their life style. For many people small steps will have a positive effect and give them motivation.


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## EllsBells (Feb 18, 2021)

As a newbie, I looked at the red fora and decided within an hour that the site would not work for me. It felt very different to here though not sure I could quantify how exactly.

From reading fora on here, I made a decision on what type of weight-loss diet approach might work for me and have since been reading more widely about what different diets do and how they do it. I'm happy with progress at the moment but will need to take a decision as to whether or not to change tack in the coming months if that progress completely stalls.


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## LancashireLass (Feb 18, 2021)

I am a relative newbie here so just to throw in my two penneth worth.......

I agree with @Kaylz (and others) because in the short time that I have been a member, it has become quite obvious already that one or two posters are very pushy with their ideas and opinions....."my way is right and you are doing it wrong" is basically what they are saying.  This could be very damaging for people that are feeling vulnerable and unsure and quite frankly I think this could be quite dangerous because some people will take this literally and end up causing themselves more problems.

I have just seen a post now on another thread from one member that shocked me and I have to be honest, I am surprised that the post has not been removed.


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## travellor (Feb 18, 2021)

Just.Brew.It said:


> I am a relative newbie here so just to throw in my two penneth worth.......
> 
> I agree with @Kaylz (and others) because in the short time that I have been a member, it has become quite obvious already that one or two posters are very pushy with their ideas and opinions....."my way is right and you are doing it wrong" is basically what they are saying.  This could be very damaging for people that are feeling vulnerable and unsure and quite frankly I think this could be quite dangerous because some people will take this literally and end up causing themselves more problems.
> 
> I have just seen a post now on another thread from one member that shocked me and I have to be honest, I am surprised that the post has not been removed.


If you see a post like that, report it for review. The moderators may not have seen it themselves, so we need to help them maintain the site as it should be.


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## HenryBennett (Feb 18, 2021)

travellor said:


> There will always be the evangelicals who will bombard any post at any opportunity,
> The problem with simply ignoring them, is that eventually the do seem to be the loudest, and possibly only voice, and other methods to treat diabetes become lost in the shouting.


My general thoughts:-

It‘s not only what people say, it’s how they say it (which is the point you’re making). I can agree to disagree with just about anyone but not when an individual is gratuitously rude because they choose to take general comments personally and shout you down. These are the people I “ignore” on this forum.

You also mention evangelicals. I have a number of very good friends who are Evangelical Christians and in order to remain friends I agree to disagree on a whole raft of things. They are very one-eyed on a number of issues, some of which I don’t even engage with them because they won’t agree to disagree and we’d probably cease being friends. In a way, therefore, I’m giving in to them and their extreme views but I value their friendship and overlook it. Engaging online is quite different though. We should be able to agree to disagree but I can’t be bothered with people who can’t be grown up. Fortunately they are in a small minority.


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## rebrascora (Feb 18, 2021)

Just.Brew.It said:


> I have just seen a post now on another thread from one member that shocked me and I have to be honest, I am surprised that the post has not been removed.


Did you report it? 
The moderators cannot keep up to date with every thread the moment each new message is posted, so it is important to "report" a post if you find it shocking. That flags it up to the moderators straight away to check it out. They may not find it controversial in which case you may have misunderstood the context or the original poster's intent or indeed it may even be just a typo which changed the content or the moderators may agree with you and edit or delete the post. 

I think we are maybe all a little too reticent to click the "report" button, I know I have been in the past, but I don't think there is any harm done in doing so more often, even if it turns out not to be warranted. I don't think the poster is made aware that their post has been reported unless a moderator feels it has crossed the line, so there should be no problem reporting posts which concern us, even if we can't quite explain why. Your reason could be "This post shocked me" or perhaps  "I felt uncomfortable reading this post". Ultimately, the moderators will of course decide if it is fit to stay on the thread, but as a member of the forum, even a newbie, you have every right to report any posts you feel shocked, offended or uneasy about.
NB. The "report" option is at the bottom left hand side of each post.... just in case you hadn't noticed it.


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## Becka (Feb 18, 2021)

AndBreathe said:


> For those interacting over the internet, they have a choice what they read, whom they agree with and how they deal with unpalatable messages.  The Report button exists to allow a fresh set of eyes to read any given contribution to assess fair play and rigour.
> 
> I can't think how, interacting over the internet anyone can e forced to do anything they don't want to.  All they have to do is step away from the keyboard, or seek information elsewhere.



Poetry exists as a form specifically because it generates an emotional response.  People experience racism, homophobia, anti-semitism etc. because people cannot help having emotions.  Grooming, abusive relationships, coercion are all problems for this very reason.

It is very easy to say "they are just words ignore them," but that is no different than saying the cure for depression is being told to cheer up.  We are all very different, and if you are able to dismiss what people say without ever experience a negative emotional reaction then you are fortunate.  But you are in a minority.

When someone is newly diagnosed and comes here for help they will be feeling vulnerable.  They have just found out that have a serious condition, possibly thinking it means they have done something wrong in how they live their life, but most likely think they will need to make changes in how they behave for the rest of it.

They will also lack the knowledge and experience to know what is good or bad advice, that is why they ask questions.  They will not know when to listen or when to walk away.  Tell them it is their own fault and they may agree, because how else did they end up in this situation?  And you seem to be knowledgable and experienced with diabetes that you are here offering advice.  That is why they are here, to seek help from such people.  So if they say you need to go on an extreme diet, give the impression your life is at risk if you eat the wrong thing, then why would you not believe that and act on it.  Potentially to the extent of an eating disorder as Kaylz said.

Words matter, they have power, especially when people are in vulnerable and emotional states.  Many of the worst figures in modern history do not gain power through might but rhetoric, exploiting normal human behaviour.  "Sticks and stones" may be a useful mantra to say to yourself to help control that emotional response, but it is not descriptive.  It is psychologically nonsense.

The reason why I just come and go with this forum now is that a long time ago I realized that the best thing way for me to cope with uncomfortable situations was to leave them.  I am not very good at fighting and it is often not worth the effort, o why subject myself to that?  Although even then I need to reach a point where I fully understand the situation to know that is what I need to do.

But that is me.  And you are you.  And other people and different also.  You might not be able to think how other people cannot just dismiss something and walk away from the keyboard.  I cannot think how people can possibly like peanut butter, watch reality TV, or speak Chinese.  But I accept they do.  A lot of them do. Weird.

Sorry if that is too strong, but this is something which especially annoys me.  Practically dismissing other people's different experiences and treating them like they are weak or broken because they are more sensitive in their emotional responses.  It is the same kind of damaging behaviour being discussed regarding pushing dangerous diets.  Some people may go away thinking that if you do not respond emotionally to words that there is something wrong with them because they do.  And instead of eating disorders it can lead to other psychologically dangerous behaviour.


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## LancashireLass (Feb 18, 2021)

I have now reported that post, thank you for the pointers on how to do that


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## LancashireLass (Feb 18, 2021)

Becka said:


> Poetry exists as a form specifically because it generates an emotional response.  People experience racism, homophobia, anti-semitism etc. because people cannot help having emotions.  Grooming, abusive relationships, coercion are all problems for this very reason.
> 
> It is very easy to say "they are just words ignore them," but that is no different than saying the cure for depression is being told to cheer up.  We are all very different, and if you are able to dismiss what people say without ever experience a negative emotional reaction then you are fortunate.  But you are in a minority.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately you can only like posts once.....I would like this one 100 times if I could


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## ColinUK (Feb 18, 2021)

helli said:


> My understanding of the data protection act is that unless you have given permission they cannot store personal data about you. Therefore, they should no longer be able to identify you to know that you are still banned.
> When I was banned, I requested all my data was removed. I can now return if I desired.
> As you say, no great loss though.


Your understanding of GDPR is not correct. 
If you request that they delete all of your records they are entitled to hold on to enough in order to uphold their ban on you. 
If that wasn’t the case then nobody could ever be barred from anywhere or anything they invoked their right to deletion.


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## Inka (Feb 18, 2021)

@Becka What a brilliant, compassionate and heartfelt post - thank you. X


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## JJay (Feb 18, 2021)

Leadinglights said:


> The main message that comes over to me as a relative newbie to the site is that everybody is different and no one size fits all, so what approach works for some people will not be suitable for others and will not work for them whether that be because of their own metabolism or intolerances to certain foods or ethical or religious beliefs, or other health conditions or their personal circumstances. But the main thing is that they should receive support for their chosen route by guidance about diet and foods. These are hard times for many people at the moment and a diabetes diagnosis can be the last straw. Equally people do need to take their situation seriously and try to make some changes to their life style. For many people small steps will have a positive effect and give them motivation.





Becka said:


> Poetry exists as a form specifically because it generates an emotional response.  People experience racism, homophobia, anti-semitism etc. because people cannot help having emotions.  Grooming, abusive relationships, coercion are all problems for this very reason.
> 
> It is very easy to say "they are just words ignore them," but that is no different than saying the cure for depression is being told to cheer up.  We are all very different, and if you are able to dismiss what people say without ever experience a negative emotional reaction then you are fortunate.  But you are in a minority.
> 
> ...


Bravo! Beautifully put


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## Becka (Feb 18, 2021)

Just.Brew.It said:


> Unfortunately you can only like posts once.....I would like this one 100 times if I could



Thank you.  Sometimes the difficult situation it is too important to just walk away so you have to say something.  Then you run away very fast afterwards!


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## ianf0ster (Feb 18, 2021)

travellor said:


> There will always be the evangelicals who will bombard any post at any opportunity,
> The problem with simply ignoring them, is that eventually the do seem to be the loudest, and possibly only voice, and other methods to treat diabetes become lost in the shouting.
> 
> If you do actually read the link being claimed as a success for the low carb diet above, it's quite laughable.
> ...


So he tried exercise and that didn't work, he cut alcohol and lost 6lbs then stalled. He said he couldn't go low calorie because of his relationship with food.
So why do you claim he went low calorie rather than Low Carb as he says he did?
By saying he didn't fall into the trap of increasing calories by adding fatty food to substitute for the loss of carbs I think he means that he didn't do what I did which was when going Low Carb I increased my calories from before  because I ate about as many grams of fats as the grams of carbs I cut - thus an increase because fat is over twice as calorific as carbs.
*But even I still lost weight !*


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## travellor (Feb 18, 2021)

ianf0ster said:


> So he tried exercise and that didn't work, he cut alcohol and lost 6lbs then stalled. He said he couldn't go low calorie because of his relationship with food.
> So why do you claim he went low calorie rather than Low Carb as he says he did?
> By saying he didn't fall into the trap of increasing calories by adding fatty food to substitute for the loss of carbs I think he means that he didn't do what I did which was when going Low Carb I increased my calories from before  because I ate about as many grams of fats as the grams of carbs I cut - thus an increase because fat is over twice as calorific as carbs.
> *But even I still lost weight !*


I didn't say anything.
I simply quoted that his words.
If you think he mis spoke, but you know he really meant to say something different because you agree you ate differently to him, I'm not going to argue, that's between you, him, and the Daily Mail.
Or if you agree, cutting“carby white foods” out of his diet, taking the likes of bread, rice and potatoes off his plate" without replacing any of them with fats, is the definition of a low carb diet, that's again a personal opinion. (Oh, and stopped having 4 sugars in tea)


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## trophywench (Feb 18, 2021)

Just wondering now if I'm @travellor 's Old Fart ........


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## rebrascora (Feb 18, 2021)

trophywench said:


> Just wondering now if I'm @travellor 's Old Fart ........


....Or even @Diabetic Frog 's "Old Fart"


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## trophywench (Feb 18, 2021)

rebrascora said:


> ....Or even @Diabetic Frog 's "Old Fart"


ooops!  LOL


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## trophywench (Feb 18, 2021)

What a silly old (female) Hector I am .... aka a daft old fart ......


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## SueEK (Feb 18, 2021)

Finding it very interesting reading these posts. As in most walks of life there are many differing opinions on the same subject and people can see and take things to a larger or lesser degree. As a member who has been here for two years I have generally found that the very large majority of posters are supportive, kind and caring. There has been the occasional post that has raised my eyebrow that I have ignored and a couple that I have reported. 
As a personal perspective on the subject of low-carb I did do this when first diagnosed but being a slim, picky eating diabetic I did not find it sustainable. My carb intake is probably quite a bit higher than many on here, but still considerably less than before diagnosis. My bg’s In the morning are higher than I would prefer but my HbA1c has stayed pretty much the same and my cholesterol levels are fine. Personally I take more notice of these results than those of my day to day readings. If these results start to rise I will of course rethink.  
There will always be those who are very passionate about their way of dealing with their diabetes and perhaps a bit too enthusiastic in their posts, but I certainly don’t believe there is any malice involved in their opinions. As has been mentioned before it is those that are newly diagnosed that need our understanding, support and choices made available to them so that they can feel comfortable with making their choices and to adjust this as time goes by.


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## travellor (Feb 18, 2021)

SueEK said:


> Finding it very interesting reading these posts. As in most walks of life there are many differing opinions on the same subject and people can see and take things to a larger or lesser degree. As a member who has been here for two years I have generally found that the very large majority of posters are supportive, kind and caring. There has been the occasional post that has raised my eyebrow that I have ignored and a couple that I have reported.
> As a personal perspective on the subject of low-carb I did do this when first diagnosed but being a slim, picky eating diabetic I did not find it sustainable. My carb intake is probably quite a bit higher than many on here, but still considerably less than before diagnosis. My bg’s In the morning are higher than I would prefer but my HbA1c has stayed pretty much the same and my cholesterol levels are fine. Personally I take more notice of these results than those of my day to day readings. If these results start to rise I will of course rethink.
> There will always be those who are very passionate about their way of dealing with their diabetes and perhaps a bit too enthusiastic in their posts, but I certainly don’t believe there is any malice involved in their opinions. As has been mentioned before it is those that are newly diagnosed that need our understanding, support and choices made available to them so that they can feel comfortable with making their choices and to adjust this as time goes by.


But what if that "enthusiasm" spills into every thread.
If any new poster is told in no uncertain terms they can't eat carbs?
If they are made to feel they have failed by following the doctors advice so far, and following an NHS diet, and everything is their fault.
If they are made to feel a failure if they don't immediately rush to bring their BG down as quickly as possible, and that they have failed if there BG rises too high after a meal.
There are many ways to negatively affect new posters seeking help.

All we can do is report posts we think are negative, we shouldn't be ignoring ones that we question the effect of.


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## Leadinglights (Feb 18, 2021)

I watched a Prime video program Fat Fiction recently and although American and a bit long there are some interesting concepts to explain the whole obesity, diabetes, diet debate. My other half is a complete sceptic when it comes to 'diets' as he feels a DIET is something with a beginning and by definition an end which usually results in people losing weight and almost immediately putting it back on. 
The program gives some scientific basis to the concept they promote which is the low carb regime but people need to make up their own minds on this approach.
I would be interested to hear what other people think.


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## SueEK (Feb 18, 2021)

travellor said:


> But what if that "enthusiasm" spills into every thread.
> If any new poster is told in no uncertain terms they can't eat carbs?
> If they are made to feel they have failed by following the doctors advice so far, and following an NHS diet, and everything is their fault.
> If they are made to feel a failure if they don't immediately rush to bring their BG down as quickly as possible, and that they have failed if there BG rises too high after a meal.
> ...


Personally I haven’t come across anyone that vociferous in their opinion but if that were the case I would challenge them and report them.


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## travellor (Feb 18, 2021)

SueEK said:


> Personally I haven’t come across anyone that vociferous in their opinion but if that were the case I would challenge them and report them.


There is one example at the top of this page.
It was reported.


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## AndBreathe (Feb 18, 2021)

Kaylz said:


> it's different to someone newly diagnosed though isn't it? Installing the fear of god in them by saying this is no good, that's no good, this may happen if you carry on eating that, oh that problem you developed is your own fault cause you ate that, I didn't WANT to develop an irrational fear of carbs but because of someone's comments on here I did, I was new, scared and they had been diagnosed years, people need to think what their comments "may" do to someone as  well as saying what foods they eat "may" do to them



My view of the internet is it is merely a microcosm of the real world.  It is populated by the good, bad, ugly, those who think they know everything, those who know ver little, and those just out there to stir up trouble.

In my world, I'm afraid I don't care who anyone is.  If the tell or suggest I do something, I do my own research.  "Trust me I'm a Doctor/Lawyer/Plumber" (or whatever - different "experts" exist) has never, ever worked in my life, and that's an approach that has served my well.

When I was newly diagnosed and took to the internet to do my own research, like many others, I found myself going around in circles, meeting conflicting information at every turn.  When my OH asked me, quite genuinely, "Who are you going to trust strangers on the internet or the professionals?"  My response was I'll listen anyone making their points politely and coherently, but at the end of the day I will make my own decisions, based on many factors.

There is no perfect approach.  Anyone claiming perfection or the holy grail is usually, in my view, and experience, just blowing their own ttrumpet for their own gain,... or ego.


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## Inka (Feb 19, 2021)

Leadinglights said:


> I watched a Prime video program Fat Fiction recently and although American and a bit long there are some interesting concepts to explain the whole obesity, diabetes, diet debate. My other half is a complete sceptic when it comes to 'diets' as he feels a DIET is something with a beginning and by definition an end which usually results in people losing weight and almost immediately putting it back on.
> The program gives some scientific basis to the concept they promote which is the low carb regime but people need to make up their own minds on this approach.
> I would be interested to hear what other people think.



Yes, the idea of ‘healthiest diet’ is fascinating. I’ve read and watched a lot too. I think we all have to research widely, weigh up things, and choose an individuals. We also have to choose something that we can mainly stick to. 

You mention Fat Fiction. I’ve seen that and read books by Gary Taube, Tim Noakes and Nina Teicholz. What I think shouldn’t really matter to you as you should examine all the evidence and make up your own mind. But you could try watching another view shown by documentaries such as Forks Over Knives and What The Health (both American too). They put the blame more on animal fats.


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## HenryBennett (Feb 19, 2021)

The truth is that there’s no “silver bullet”. We are all unique and, therefore, our bodies react differently to the same foods. The possible combinations and permutations of ingredients and foodstuffs, food groups etc, along with each of us having unique DNA means it’s impossible for there to be a single solution.

But there is a commonality in targets and approach for us diabetics. Three extremely important things that I learnt from this group are: 1) understand carbohydrates; 2) keep a food diary; and 3) measure your BG regularly with a finger prick.

Both the hospital dietician and my GP’s diabetes nurse told me to go on a low fat diet and said I shouldn’t buy a BG meter! Neither mentioned the word “carbohydrates”.

Using trial and error I’ve a reasonable idea of what’s good and what’s bad for my BG. But there’s still lots to learn and the best way to learn is from other people’s experience. Try what works for someone else. If it works for you add it to your list. If it doesn’t discard it. Listen to and tune in to your body.

If, however, an individual in here is overbearing, rude or unpleasant hit the “ignore” button and stick with the very many kind and knowledgeable people.


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## Pobertali3 (Feb 22, 2021)

everydayupsanddowns said:


> Just a gentle reminder to members that our forum is supposed to be a friendly and supportive place, which encourages members to find their own way through the available options to find a diabetes management approach that meets their ambitions, and is appealing and sustainable for them.
> 
> While there may be some common ground between approaches, there is no one way that works for everyone, and is appropriate for every situation. Specifically carbohydrates are not inherently ‘bad’, and should not be unfairly demonised any more than any other macronutrient. Some people *will* have a very low tolerance for carbohydrates, and may need to be particularly careful, and that's absolutely fine if it's the apporach that works for them, but that isn't necessarily the case for everyone. _Everything in moderation, except laughter_ as AlanS used to say.
> 
> ...


I am new to the community and find this post and replies very interesting.  I have often followed a low carb diet to counteract weight gain and high BS levels.  I was advised to do this many years ago, before diagnosis, by a homeopath who said I was pre-diabetic.  In my experience although the results of weight loss and lower BS readings is quick this is a diet I find difficult to stick to and eventually I end up reversing all the good I have done.  I am a chocoholic and always admit this at reviews.  Ideally I would like to have an 'everything in moderation' relationship with food but throughout my adult years I have never been able to find the balance - it is always a hunger or a burst.  I am convinced that I have an eating disorder but have never pursued this further. I had no idea the low carb approach can cause eye damage!  I am having problems with vision at the moment and recent retinopathy annual screening has shown some diabetic damage. I also have MS so blurred vision could also be attributed to that. I am looking forward to sharing experiences and learning from the community.


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## Drummer (Feb 22, 2021)

travellor said:


> But what if that "enthusiasm" spills into every thread.
> If any new poster is told in no uncertain terms they can't eat carbs?
> If they are made to feel they have failed by following the doctors advice so far, and following an NHS diet, and everything is their fault.
> If they are made to feel a failure if they don't immediately rush to bring their BG down as quickly as possible, and that they have failed if there BG rises too high after a meal.
> ...


Oh they'd soon be corrected. When someone is getting things so wrong it couldn't be allowed to go uncorrected.


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## Drummer (Feb 22, 2021)

Pobertali3 said:


> I am new to the community and find this post and replies very interesting.  I have often followed a low carb diet to counteract weight gain and high BS levels.  I was advised to do this many years ago, before diagnosis, by a homeopath who said I was pre-diabetic.  In my experience although the results of weight loss and lower BS readings is quick this is a diet I find difficult to stick to and eventually I end up reversing all the good I have done.  I am a chocoholic and always admit this at reviews.


Is it the chocolate you are addicted to, or the sugar content?
I occasionally have a square of high cocoa content chocolate. If such a high percentage is too much you can use it to dip nuts, or coconut flakes, or make desserts with other low carb ingredients.


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## Ljc (Feb 22, 2021)

Hi @Pobertali3 , welcome to the forum.
 It’s not low carb that can cause eye problems as such, it’s more the lowering of your  blood glucose too quickly when they have been high for a while .  also high BGs can cause blurriness .


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## rebrascora (Feb 22, 2021)

@Pobertali3 
Did you increase your fat content when you went low carb? That is the key to making it sustainable long term. If you eat more fat it stops you from feeling hungry and makes low carb enjoyable. I too was a chocoholic and sugar addict pre diagnosis. Like @Drummer and many others here, I now have a little dark chocolate (85%) (half a square is usually enough) and I have it with a spoonful of crunchy peanut butter to make it more satisfying and take some of the bitterness off it.


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## AndBreathe (Feb 22, 2021)

Pobertali3 said:


> I am new to the community and find this post and replies very interesting.  I have often followed a low carb diet to counteract weight gain and high BS levels.  I was advised to do this many years ago, before diagnosis, by a homeopath who said I was pre-diabetic.  In my experience although the results of weight loss and lower BS readings is quick this is a diet I find difficult to stick to and eventually I end up reversing all the good I have done.  I am a chocoholic and always admit this at reviews.  Ideally I would like to have an 'everything in moderation' relationship with food but throughout my adult years I have never been able to find the balance - it is always a hunger or a burst.  I am convinced that I have an eating disorder but have never pursued this further. I had no idea the low carb approach can cause eye damage!  I am having problems with vision at the moment and recent retinopathy annual screening has shown some diabetic damage. I also have MS so blurred vision could also be attributed to that. I am looking forward to sharing experiences and learning from the community.



My SiL, who is not living with diabetes in any form (to me knowledge) adopted a LC diet, when she was impressed how rock solid my weight is, over several year, whilst eating heartily.  She trimmed up a bit, and her MS consultant have been astonished how well she has been.  Visual loss, to the extent of blindness (thankfully temporarily to this point) in one or both eyes is a feature of her flares.  Naturally, she'll do anything to help with that.

The MS improvements for her were a very happy, but totally unexpected outcome.  Of course, that doesn't mean that would or could be an outcome you might enjoy, just saying.


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## Newbie777 (Feb 22, 2021)

Hello,

I am no expert on this and just my experience with my eyes, I  suffer from Type 2 diabetes and high blood pressure.

Working away from home, I have attended a few specialists eye hospitals including, Manchester, Moorfields and Northampton, so am a bit familiar with the setup and terminology used by eye specialists.

There are a few things that can lead to blindness, these include Glaucoma, Iritis, Retina detachment, Macula Edema and I have suffered 3 of these conditions and I am only 49! (I also had a cataract removed last year)

With eye conditions in Diabetics there are many factors to look at and different stages like non- profilerative to more aggressive stages.

Usually, screening is done once a year and that is fine, but if you are unlucky then one option is retinopathy (laser), for me the laser affected my night vision.
However, there are other eye conditions/treatments and as with most things early detection is key.

Am not sure i heard about the low carb diet having an impact on your eyes though. I think I have read (and know) about constipation and some extreme examples of getting kidney stones?

My eyesight deteriorated pretty quickly, I could not attend some appointments as I was working on the other side of the Country and was invited to attend on aTuesday PM, or the hospital would forget sending out my appointments due to outsourcing the service or a change in Consultant etc. But this is completely my fault due to my bad BG/BP control!

I apologise if I sound like I am scaring you but am not, just trying to give my experience.

I have learned the hard way, but now making the required changes needed and thanks to the great people on this forum, who have given me great advice and helped me steer in the right direction, so please don't be afraid to ask.

Good luck, am sure you will fine.


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## Kaylz (Feb 22, 2021)

Newbie777 said:


> Am not sure i heard about the low carb diet having an impact on your eyes though.


Nobody has said it does, but drastically reducing carbs at the start can lead to too fast a drop in BG and hba1c too soon which can cause eye problems, I did due to it


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## Newbie777 (Feb 22, 2021)

Sorry my bad,

Oh ok that makes sense.


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## MAC2020 (Feb 25, 2021)

So, can you find out if your comment has been reported and if you or a poster is ignored?!!


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## Ditto (Feb 25, 2021)

MAC2020 said:


> So, can you find out if your comment has been reported and if you or a poster is ignored?!!


LOL Mac this begs the questions are you feeling paranoid or are you gonna dob somebody in?


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## grovesy (Feb 25, 2021)

MAC2020 said:


> So, can you find out if your comment has been reported and if you or a poster is ignored?!!


If you report something mods , usally acknowledge but not always.


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## Robin (Feb 25, 2021)

MAC2020 said:


> So, can you find out if your comment has been reported and if you or a poster is ignored?!!


I don’t think you hear if your own post has been reported by someone else, unless the Moderators edit or remove it, in which case you get a notification.
Ive often wondered about what happens when you ignore people, I have never applied the 'ignore button' even if someone is annoying me, (I'm too nosy about what they may be saying behind my back!), but maybe loads of people ignore me, I assume I wouldnt know. Sometimes if I'm reading a thread, someone makes a comment, and then the posts carry on as if they hadn’t spoken (it has happened to my posts occasionally) but it’s sometimes down to people not reading through the threads before they reply, or are typing while someone else is posting.


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## grovesy (Feb 25, 2021)

Robin said:


> I don’t think you hear if your own post has been reported by someone else, unless the Moderators edit or remove it, in which case you get a notification.
> Ive often wondered about what happens when you ignore people, I have never applied the 'ignore button' even if someone is annoying me, (I'm too nosy about what they may be saying behind my back!), but maybe loads of people ignore me, I assume I wouldnt know. Sometimes if I'm reading a thread, someone makes a comment, and then the posts carry on as if they hadn’t spoken (it has happened to my posts occasionally) but it’s sometimes down to people not reading through the threads before they reply, or are typing while someone else is posting.


You don't see there post but you get a message at the bottom of a thread  Show ignored content, if you click on that you can then see the content!
When reporting g mainly suspected spam, I get notification say thanks but not always.


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## Robin (Feb 25, 2021)

grovesy said:


> You don't see there post but you get a message at the bottom of a thread Show ignored content, if you click on that you can then see the content!


Oh, thankyou, I was never sure how it worked.


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## grovesy (Feb 25, 2021)

Robin said:


> Oh, thankyou, I was never sure how it worked.


No problem.


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## MAC2020 (Feb 25, 2021)

Ditto said:


> LOL Mac this begs the questions are you feeling paranoid or are you gonna dob somebody in? View attachment 16293


Just curious... Honest Guvna!


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## AndBreathe (Feb 25, 2021)

Kaylz said:


> Nobody has said it does, but drastically reducing carbs at the start can lead to too fast a drop in BG and hba1c too soon which can cause eye problems, I did due to it



I think it might be fairer to say that reducing blood sugars too aggressively can bring about issues with the eyes - for some.  It doesn't happen to everyone, and I doubt the lack of carbs are the culprits.  In my view, it could easily happen with the ND, which we know is calorie based.


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## travellor (Feb 25, 2021)

AndBreathe said:


> I think it might be fairer to say that reducing blood sugars too aggressively can bring about issues with the eyes - for some.  It doesn't happen to everyone, and I doubt the lack of carbs are the culprits.  In my view, it could easily happen with the ND, which we know is calorie based.



I don't think it's worth fighting over anyones view that eye damage may not occur, and if it does, it wasn't the carbs that did it.
Possibly we should just advise people that reducing BG rapidly isn't the best approach.
However they choose to reduce it?

As an aside, what information do you have that a reduced calorie carb based approach, like the mostly carb based shakes, makes eye damage easily happen, as opposed to a lack of carbs, which has always been promoted to reduce BG. Is there another biological route to cause damage that you have information about, as It's not a view I've seen anywhere before?


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## Kaylz (Feb 25, 2021)

AndBreathe said:


> I think it might be fairer to say that reducing blood sugars too aggressively can bring about issues with the eyes - for some.  It doesn't happen to everyone, and I doubt the lack of carbs are the culprits.  In my view, it could easily happen with the ND, which we know is calorie based.


In a roundabout way that's exactly what I said, why did you just choose to pick on it now? But drastically reducing carbs is what makes BG reduce rapidly so would you take the risk? Yes it may not happen but going slowly to reduce the chances is a better option and that's talking from being through the eye problems associated with it, I'm pretty sure if people knew they could be facing eye injections if BG drops rapidly then they would want to take it slowly


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## AndBreathe (Feb 25, 2021)

travellor said:


> I don't think it's worth fighting over anyones view that eye damage may not occur, and if it does, it wasn't the carbs that did it.
> Possibly we should just advise people that reducing BG rapidly isn't the best approach.
> However they choose to reduce it?
> 
> As an aside, what information do you have that a reduced calorie carb based approach, like the mostly carb based shakes, makes eye damage easily happen, as opposed to a lack of carbs, which has always been promoted to reduce BG. Is there another biological route to cause damage that you have information about, as It's not a view I've seen anywhere before?



I think that is exactly my point.  I believe it is the rapid reduction in A1c that's the issue, not the methodology, and picking out any single food group doesn't make sense.

In my view.


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## AndBreathe (Feb 25, 2021)

Kaylz said:


> In a roundabout way that's exactly what I said, why did you just choose to pick on it now? But drastically reducing carbs is what makes BG reduce rapidly so would you take the risk? Yes it may not happen but going slowly to reduce the chances is a better option and that's talking from being through the eye problems associated with it, I'm pretty sure if people knew they could be facing eye injections if BG drops rapidly then they would want to take it slowly



Reducing A1c rapidly could easily be due to taking insulin, in a very efficient manner, should the person be insulin dependent.  It is likely other meds, like, say Gliclazide or others could also have that impact if the reductions are harsh

I don't believe the carb reduction is the issue.  It's the blood glucose reduction that does it.


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## travellor (Feb 25, 2021)

AndBreathe said:


> I think that is exactly my point.  I believe it is the rapid reduction in A1c that's the issue, not the methodology, and picking out any single food group doesn't make sense.
> 
> In my view.


Well, a single persons "view" is just that. Just one opinion.
As you say, their view.

Without proof, and as some one said earlier in this post, maybe that's just the internet as a microcosm of the real world, listening to someone in the pub.


So always listen politely. But remember, there is no perfect approach. Anyone claiming perfection or the holy grail is usually just blowing their own trumpet for their own gain,... or ego.
Again, we agree

T2 since October


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