# Meal Replacement Powders etc



## zuludog (Jul 31, 2020)

I have always tended to be overweight
I'm 178 cm tall and for the past 18 months to 2 years my weight has been around 90/91 kg. I'm 70
I seem to have been dieting since last spring (2019)
Fortunately my diabetic control, BP, and so on are good, controlled with Lisinopril, Metformin, Glargine, and Novorapid, but i'd like to reduce those if possible

Over Christmas/New Year I bought & read Roy Taylor's & Michael Mosley's books, and made more of an effort
I tried to follow their schemes, but it was a bit 'home - made' - I bought some meal replacement powder from Holland & Barret
I had, of course, reduced my carb intake already, but I cut it down even further and made up my own sort of low carb - cum- Mediterranean diet

Well now I'm 5 or 6 months into it, and although I've lost some weight, it's not much - I'm about 89kg

I've just had an email from a friend who's a similar age and also has diabetes
He has been following Roy Taylor's diet plan closely, and his weight has gone down from 13st to just under 11st - say a loss of 13kg
He's stopped injecting insulin and now manages with diet & Metformin

So, I thought I'd try putting myself on the official version - and that's when the fun starts!

Once you start Searching t'Net for Roy Taylor, Fast 800, Newcastle Diet there are so many references and Links
Similarly on the powders, shakes and other meal replacement products, There are so many different schemes, diets & powders that it all gets very confusing, never ending and overwhelming very quickly
My friend used Optifast powders, but even on the Newcastle University website - www.ncl.ac.uk - there are several different brands - Kee Diet, Exante, Slim and Save, New you Plan

Has anyone got any comments or recommendations please?

Can I make a couple of comments of my own?

I don't think I could manage on shakes for every meal. I was thinking of something like a shake for breakfast then low cal/low carb meals at other times
I'm not too bothered about the cost - I want to get something done
I think reversing my diabetes is a optimistic; I'd settle for reducing my medication and losing weight. My target is below 85kg, and the closer to 80kg the better


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## trophywench (Jul 31, 2020)

Well I think yours is a more than realistic frame of mind @zuludog so I really hopes you can make it work.

Can't help with the shakes though, wish I could.


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## Toucan (Aug 1, 2020)

Hello @zuludog and so well done on keeping your Diabetes under control, and best wishes with your weight loss plans.
I think the @ColinUK has used shakes as part of his weight loss plan, so he may be able to help with advice on which are the good ones to use.


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## ColinUK (Aug 1, 2020)

Exante is the brand which was used in the Newcastle trial itself and it’s the one I’m using.
I did start with the Tesco or Asda one but the Exante products are much more satisfying and more palatable.
The advice they give is to have either 800 calories a day or to follow 5:2. Personally 5:2 don’t sit well with me so I stick (generally) to the 800 plan.
Within that guideline it’s perfectly fine to have 4 products to meet the calorie count or to sub one out for a low calorie, low carb, meal. But I tend to stick with the shakes (fav flavours Chocolate & Peanut butter; Cherries & Berries; Salted Caramel; Toffee Caramel) often adding a spoonful of coffee to the mix too. 

There’s a few of us on here who’ve lost weight with Exante so I’d suggest taking a look at their website.

There are constantly offers taking 1/3 off the price at least. There are often pretty much half price deals.

If you do want to try them then you get a further £5 off any order above £25 and that’s on top of any other offers if you use my referral:

https://www.exantediet.com/referrals.list?applyCode=COLIN-R91


I also get a little credit to my account too


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## zuludog (Aug 2, 2020)

Well, I've been busy
I've been thinking (Oh dear!) and shopping

It seems to me that nutritionally all these shakes & powders are much of a muchness
They're based on skimmed milk powder or soya bean extract for vegans, plus vits & mins, flavouring and sweetener, and end up with about 200 Calories per serving
I plan on having a meal replacement for breakfast and perhaps lunch sometimes, and a proper meal in the evening, even if it is a low carb/veggie meal suggested by Taylor or Mosley
I'll be doing the 800 cal/day

I was reluctant to order anything Online as I have a suspicion that I would be bombarded by emails, so I had a look round the shops - Tesco, Sainsbury, ASDA, Boots, and Superdrug
Not much choice in any of them, it was mostly Slimfast, which I'd been warned against, and various whey powders aimed at body building
Nevertheless I did buy some Slimfast - Boots had a BOGOF on all dieting products so I got a couple of tubs of Slimfast, and Superdrug had a packet of Slimfast Vitality at half price as it was short dated
Superdrug have their own brand, Slender Plan, so I got some of that
I also bought a few protein bars here & there, and some low cal cup a soups

All the flavours I saw were sweet, mostly chocolate, vanilla, & strawberry, though the Slender Plan was caramel or banana
There was more choice in some of the larger variety packs of Slimfast, but I decided against it

So it looks like I'll be buying Online after all, and on Colin's recommendation I've ordered a 2 week pack of Exante - thank you for the recommendation and the discount code
It should be here in a few days

That means I'll have enough shakes for at least 4 weeks
Now all I have to do is to do it!

And instead of wandering round a supermarket with just a vague idea, I'll be buying specifically for the recipes


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## ColinUK (Aug 2, 2020)

The shakes are filling. But blend them with ice, lots of ice.

There’s a Facebook group for exante users too and that’s generally full of transformation stories and also recipe ideas for turning the soups or shakes into other things. I’ve not done that but it looks like a good idea.


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## zuludog (Aug 2, 2020)

I've just Searched YouTube for 'Exante Diet' and there are loads of videos, but I haven't watched any yet


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## ColinUK (Aug 2, 2020)

zuludog said:


> I've just Searched YouTube for 'Exante Diet' and there are loads of videos, but I haven't watched any yet


So did you order a “standard” box or did you select your own products?
I’ve never ordered a standard box because there’s loads I’d never eat. For one I don’t eat pork so that’s the carbonara out, and I don’t have a microwave and an awful lot of the meals and soups need to be zapped. So I just stick with the shakes 

Whatever you do please don’t ever try the banana shakes. They’re always limited in availability and they taste phenomenal! I mean awful! Awful! AWFUL! 
And they’re even better with a spoonful of cocoa and a couple of teaspoons of chopped hazelnut


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## zuludog (Aug 2, 2020)

I ordered a standard 2 week box
I'll eat most things; I'll just see what turns up and take it from there

But if you re - read my post # 5 you'll see that I already have about 4 week's powders, and when I get the Exante box I'll alternate and work through what I have before I order any more
I'm not expecting a supreme culinary experience from any of these, it's a case of just getting my head down and doing it

The Holland & Barret powders were very sweet & sickly - see my OP # 1, so I started adding a spoonful or two of plain natural yogurt to the mix to cut back the sickliness
I'm expecting the other powders to be similarly sweet, so I'll do the same with them if necessary - well, the sweet flavours anyway
I stirred them up in a pint pot with a fork, which wasn't vert satisfactory, but the Exante pack comes with a mixing bottle/shaker  - whoopee!

I do have a microwave oven

I've heated convenience meals in the past, but finding any that are vaguely healthy is almost impossible, so I stopped doing that
They are handy for scrambled eggs, but you need to learn, and keep a careful watch on it, as they go from too runny to overcooked very, very, quickly
I live on my own, and they are useful for re - heating leftover food
If you do get one, a cheap, simple model is adequate
And get a plastic plate cover intended for the microwave as food has a habit of boiling over and exploding all over the place

Thanks for your advice and recommendations, and for any encouragement in the future - I'll probably need it!


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## ColinUK (Aug 3, 2020)

I used to have a microwave but made the conscious decision to get rid of it because I wanted to take more time and effort over cooking food. Which is odd as now I’m mainly “eating” shakes!  

Do you have a bullet type blender? If you do then that’s the best way to make the shakes as you can whizz them up with tonnes of ice.


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## zuludog (Aug 3, 2020)

I started my new regime yesterday morning. I was 91,2kg
I had a shake for breakfast; a protein bar, a satsuma, and a yogurt for lunch; and chicken & broccoli and a yogurt for my evening meal
Also, my usual cups of tea & coffee plus 3 or 4 pints of water during the day. I use a pint glass of water with a squirt of lemon or lime juice in it

My yogurt is a bowl of natural yogurt with a pinch of cinnamon stirred into it

I know you shouldn't weigh yourself too often, but I couldn't resist it. This morning I was 89,3kg
Alright, that's hardly representative, and could just be a blip, but at least it's downwards
Also this morning; BG = 6,8; BP = 135/68; pulse = 70

No, I don't have a bullet blender
I thought I'd just keep a jug of water in the fridge, and also add a couple of ice cubes. I'll see how I get on with that

At the moment I'm using the protein bars and Slimfast powder I bought on Saturday, plus a few odds & ends of fresh food I already had in

My Exante order should arrive in a couple of days, and I'll see what it looks like in real life instead of a computer screen
As I said, I'll probably alternate them with the Slimfast, and when it's all used up I'll order more Exante
I will have used up all my fresh food by then, so I'll buy more fresh food specifically for the very low cal/low carb recipes suggested by Exante, Taylor , or Mosley

As you might have guessed, at the moment it's a bit of a novelty, and there's a lot of initial enthusiasm. Time will tell,,,,,,


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## zuludog (Aug 4, 2020)

Yesterday was the second day of my new regime

Breakfast - A strawberry flavour Slimfast shake
It was a bit sweet so I stirred in a spoonful of natural yogurt to tone down the sickliness, and it also made it thicker

Lunch - As I mentioned I'm just finishing off a few bits of fresh food; plus I fancied something savoury, so I had -
A diet cup a soup, two oatcakes, one tomato, one satsuma
The oatcakes are only 5,6g carb each, and they provide some fibre

I was quite satisfied after that, so I didn't have my yogurt till later in the afternoon

Evening meal - chicken, broccoli, an apple

Plus my usual cups of tea & coffee and a few pints of water 

This morning I was 89,0kg -- just a small change, but then, it's only been a day, and it's still downwards
My Exante box should arrive later today or tomorrow; it will be interesting to try some of the savoury soups & meals

I think that's enough for now; I'll let you know how I'm going on in a few weeks


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## Ditto (Aug 5, 2020)

I must be easily please because I liked the banana Exante!  

Why were you warned off the SlimFasts? Too sweet? 

Today I had a vanilla SlimFast shake for breakfast and a banana Exante shake for lunch. I think dinner is coconut Exante. What an exciting diet. Kill me now.

I do luv SlimFasts. A chocolate shake goes lovely with fish and chips.


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## ColinUK (Aug 5, 2020)

Ditto said:


> I must be easily please because I liked the banana Exante!
> 
> Why were you warned off the SlimFasts? Too sweet?
> 
> ...


My mind trick didn’t work!

Banana is lovely!


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## zuludog (Aug 5, 2020)

Ditto said:


> I must be easily please because I liked the banana Exante!
> 
> Why were you warned off the SlimFasts? Too sweet?
> 
> ...



There are several brands of Meal Replacement Powders available, and they're all very similar - skimmed milk powder or soya bean isolate + vits & mins +flavouring + sweetener, with about 200 cals per serving
Slimfast powder falls into this category

I'm not exactly sure, but I think that although the powder is OK, Slimfast's overall scheme & meal plan has too high a level of carbohydrates for diabetics


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## ColinUK (Aug 5, 2020)

zuludog said:


> There are several brands of Meal Replacement Powders available, and they're all very similar - skimmed milk powder or soya bean isolate + vits & mins +flavouring + sweetener, with about 200 cals per serving
> Slimfast powder falls into this category
> 
> I'm not exactly sure, but I think that although the powder is OK, Slimfast's overall scheme & meal plan has too high a level of carbohydrates for diabetics


Prof Taylor says that the carb count when you’re following vlcd isn’t that important because the calories are so restricted but I can see how that’s perhaps relevant to a point.
Newcastle Uni list some “approved” MRP brands and Slimfast isn’t on there. I don’t think Tesco is either but it’s identical to the Asda ones. 
I think folks gravitate to Exante because it is the one which was used in the study itself.


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## zuludog (Aug 5, 2020)

I decided to try a meal replacement diet after a friend had lost just over 2 stones during Lockdown by going on one
He used Optifast, but when I started looking I found there were several brands

Eventually I decided on Exante, partly because of the sort of recommendation ( or at least a mention) by Colin, and partly because their website was reasonably easy to follow


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## zuludog (Aug 10, 2020)

Well, I've been on my new diet for a week now; I was 88,2 kg this morning and I'm happy enough with that

I've now settled on my diet -

Breakfast - MRP = Meal Replacement Powder
Dinner - cup a soup, a protein/diet bar, and plain natural yogurt, Greek or otherwise; or a meal from Exante, and yogurt
Tea - a meal from Step 1 of  'Life Without Diabetes' by Roy Taylor,  and a small piece of fruit

The MRPs are very sweet so I add a spoonful of natural yogurt which counteracts the sickliness and makes it a bit thicker
I often leave my dinnertime yogurt till mid afternoon
On 2 or 3 occasions when I've been very hungry I've had a cup of tea and a dry oatcake or a few spoons of yogurt; though this hasn't happened recently - I wonder if I'm getting used to it?
I also take a multivitamin tablet every couple of days

I inject basal - bolus insulin; Glargine and Novorapid
I reduced the amount of those as I was eating hardly any carbs, but it was a bit tricky and I had a couple of hypos
Fortunately I was at home and dealt with them without any problems, but I'll have to be careful if I go out, especially if i'm driving
But I seem to have it settled now, I've reduced the insulin for both types to half of their previous levels, but i'll continue to monitor and adjust if necessary


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## ColinUK (Aug 10, 2020)

That’s great!


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## everydayupsanddowns (Aug 10, 2020)

Hope the new system works well for you @zuludog 

Keep us posted!


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## Ditto (Aug 10, 2020)

zuludog said:


> 'Life Without Diabetes' by Roy Taylor


 Thanks for the book rec, I've just reserved it at the library. Gave up on trying to use my Audible credit, I fail at online. 

Well done on getting your head around your diet, that's half the battle, I think I've got mine sussed now, with any luck. No liquids I'm afraid, I just couldn't hack it. Y'all are obviously made of sterner stuff.


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## zuludog (Aug 10, 2020)

I've never been very hungry in the morning, just a few cups of coffee, so I usually leave my MRP till mid morning

Roy Taylor's book is based on research he did at Newcastle University, hence the diet is often known as The Newcastle Diet

Since then a couple of other authors have advocated a low carb/low cal diet for rapid weight loss and control of diabetes
Notably 'The Fast 800' book by Dr Michael Mosley; and Dr David Unwin
The Fast 800 uses proper food, no MRPs, so you might find that useful

You could try getting the book from amazon; I have always found their Used Books to be in good condition and reasonably priced

Then there's YouTube, and you will find videos by those three above

However, since then the bandwagon has been rolling, and there are a lot of very similar books & videos out there
It's worth browsing on YT, but try not to get overwhelmed


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## Ditto (Aug 10, 2020)

I've got all those other books. I like a good read, always have found nutrition to be a fascinating subject. I read the book, get all fired up with enthusiasm and then gradually forget all about it.  I'm doomed!


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## zuludog (Aug 10, 2020)

Ditto said:


> I've got all those other books. I like a good read, always have found nutrition to be a fascinating subject. I read the book, get all fired up with enthusiasm and then gradually forget all about it.  I'm doomed!



SNAP!!


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## MAC2020 (Jan 29, 2021)

ColinUK said:


> My mind trick didn’t work!
> 
> Banana is lovely!


Hi Zuludog, Colin and everyone who has tried the Extante 200 calorie shakes and Newcastle plan.

In a bid to lose weight and train my body to accept fewer calories and kick start 2021 with cleaner LCHF meals, I'm trying the 800 cal a day Newcastle diet with a vegan twist and my box of, wait for it, sixty shakes arrived this morning. That should be my eight weeks worth, or two months supply on one shake a day.

On the plus side, I definitely have not recently contracted Covid-19, former strain or new virulent/variant strain because my taste buds and sense of taste is at 100%.

On the downside, these Extante Shakes, well at least the Vegan Banana bread flavour one I’ve just tried is FOUL tasting! With an awful sweetener lingering after taste, plus it tastes very chemicalized (is that a word?).

How on earth do you get through one let alone sixty? It’s taken me two hours to drink 100ml of the stuff. Not sure I’ll be able to stomach more than one a day at this stage if I was considering four weeks on the plan. (Maybe that's their sneaky other plan to force you not to have more than one-a-day?). And I have a whole box full having paid £51 for sixty.

Woe is me.

I've just thought, since you all are loving the banana flavour, perhaps the VEGAN banana flavour tastes odder or differently to the regular Banana flavour. Could it be?

To be fair, most vegan shop bought products taste odd, as the manufacturers have to pad it out with all sorts of stuff to make it even remotely palatable. Hence it's usually better for me to stick to raw fruits and vegetables and add whatever seasonings myself.

Advice anyone? @ColinUK? @Ditto? Should I just stick with it, hold my nose and gulp it down?

How did it go with you in the end @zuludog?  @ColinUK and @Ditto? Target Weight loss achieved and maintained?


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## ColinUK (Jan 29, 2021)

MAC2020 said:


> Hi Zuludog, Colin and everyone who has tried the Extante 200 calorie shakes and Newcastle plan.
> 
> In a bid to lose weight and train my body to accept fewer calories and kick start 2021 with cleaner LCHF meals, I'm trying the 800 cal a day Newcastle diet with a vegan twist and my box of, wait for it, sixty shakes arrived this morning. That should be my eight weeks worth, or two months supply on one shake a day.
> 
> ...


Stick with it. 
Add plenty of ice to the blender when you make the shake. 
Even consider adding a spoonful of cocoa or a dash of double cream to the shake as you mix it. 
Drink it quickly as none of them benefit from sitting around.

As for long term, I got bored with them. Relaxed my eating, put a few kilos back on but got more of a handle on what low carb eating actually means for me.
That said I’m using up anything perishable in my fridge right now and intended on reintroducing shakes again next month.
I won’t be buying any more but have tonnes of sachets sitting there so I might as well use them. Probably one in the morning and then a low carb main meal later will do me.


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## Ditto (Jan 29, 2021)

I loved the milkshakes but I like SlimFast as well @MAC2020. I'd drink them and a meal! Just keep going if you can. I couldn't, I've gone back to two meals a day low carb as I just got too hungry but I'm a weirdo so don't go off anything I say.  I've got various shakes in the cupboard in case I feel strong at any time. I really should do the liquid diet, I just can't.

edit/
Hang on, I've just remembered, Exante is with water isn't it? I couldn't do that either, I made them up with milk!


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## grovesy (Jan 29, 2021)

Ditto said:


> I loved the milkshakes but I like SlimFast as well @MAC2020. I'd drink them and a meal! Just keep going if you can. I couldn't, I've gone back to two meals a day low carb as I just got too hungry but I'm a weirdo so don't go off anything I say.  I've got various shakes in the cupboard in case I feel strong at any time. I really should do the liquid diet, I just can't.
> 
> edit/
> Hang on, I've just remembered, Exante is with water isn't it? I couldn't do that either, I made them up with milk!


I don't do Very Low Carb either. Would not even try shakes!


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## MAC2020 (Jan 29, 2021)

Thanks for all your responses. Don't feel too bad now!!


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## zuludog (Jan 30, 2021)

Hello MAC 2020
Sorry to hear of your disappointment with the MRPs Remember that they are not intended to be a wonderful gastronomic experience, they are just to do a job
Having said that I haven't had any problems drinking them, and although they tend to be a bit sweet, some of them are quite pleasant
But so far I've only had the 'ordinary' ones, so perhaps the vegan ones are different

When I decided to go an a diet scheme, full of enthusiasm I ordered a 4 week trial box of Exante meals, bars & shakes, and also bought a few MRPs from local shops - mainly Slimfast but also Holland & Barrett and Superdrug's own brand
Most supermarkets sell them, although they are usually tucked away in obscure sections

To cut down the sweetness I add a spoonful of natural yogurt, and milk powder to those that should be made up with milk
I tried making them up in a jug with a fork, but a proper shaker is much better

All these MRPs are very similar, being made from skimmed milk powder or soya extract with added vitamins, minerals, flavourings, and sweetener; and although I haven't completely checked the nutritional content is more or less the same

These things are not cheap, but once you've bought from Exante they send you offers by email, so now I browse round shops, including discount stores for any that are on offer, and Exante's offers
I also buy Exante's diet bars, but not their meals

You say " with a vegan twist" - so does it absolutely have to be vegan?
I haven't checked the details of the composition, but at a quick glance the MRPs don't contain any meat or fish, just SMP; so maybe you could consider something that is vegetarian but not vegan?

Possible solutions for yourself are to make up some sort of vegan shake from something like vegan milk, psylium powder, ground cinnamon, and so on
But you would also need to take suitable multivitamin & mineral tablets
Or you could make up some sort of smoothie

Does it have to be a shake? As I'm sure you're aware, if you Search YouTube and Amazon books for 'vegan weight loss' there are loads of references

I was about 90kg last August, and 83,2kg on Christmas Eve, but thanks to Christmas and the very cold weather I relaxed a bit, so now I'm just under 86kg
But I'm back on the straight and narrow, and hope to get down to my target of 80kg

As I said, so far I have only used the ordinary ones, but I'm curious, so I've ordered a few vegan samples from Exante, including the Banana Bread, so we shall see
I'll report back when I've tried them, hopefully in a few days
Interestingly the reviews for the vegan MRPs range from 5 star to 1 star and from Yummy to Disgusting

Incidentally, I used to have a typical British diet with a fair amount of meat in it, but gradually I have cut that down to very little meat, changed to olive oil, and so on - all the healthy stuff we hear about!
And along with that my glucose levels, cholesterol, blood pressure etc have all improved
This was not a dramatic, deliberate, overnight change, it just worked out like that

The real problem was that I found it difficult to lose weight, and even though I had cut out most carbohydrates I still ate a small amount
So following a plan was easier in some ways, even though it was hard at first


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## zuludog (Jan 30, 2021)

COLIN UK

I know what you mean about using up stuff in your fridge
As I live on my own, if I buy a few veg they seem to last for ages, so I often buy frozen veg and just use what I want

But the meals in Roy Taylor's book are easier in that respect. The quantities are not too great, and it's not much of an ordeal to have the same thing 2 or 3 night's running
Also, as they have hardly any carbs or cals you can eat a bit more without any problems


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## Ditto (Jan 30, 2021)

I always have to use up every single thing, can't bear waste, so now I shop daily. I know with the virus we're just supposed to do one big weekly shop but I go off the rails when it comes to food, so daily is better for me. I can get my head around that.  Good luck peoples with the healthy food plans, I hope you all find one that suits. I think I've cracked it now (from my lips to God's ears).


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## MAC2020 (Jan 31, 2021)

zuludog said:


> Hello MAC 2020
> Sorry to hear of your disappointment with the MRPs Remember that they are not intended to be a wonderful gastronomic experience, they are just to do a job
> Having said that I haven't had any problems drinking them, and although they tend to be a bit sweet, some of them are quite pleasant
> But so far I've only had the 'ordinary' ones, so perhaps the vegan ones are different
> ...


Hi Zulu

Thanks for your reply. Yes the vegan banana was awful but yesterday I tried the vegan chocolate, and altogether a different experience. A little sweet but otherwise rather pleasant to my surprise! I have the vegan blueberry and the vegan coffee to try next so I'll see how that goes. Let me know how you get on with the vegan ones.

But yes, I take your point that they are not meant to be a gastronomic experience. My partner also takes that view toward food, for the benefit not the appetite. Consequently he's able to spoon feed himself cod liver oil without much fuss. Mind you he's a huge bread eater ( which I couldn't understand- Why so much bread?). I wasn't before I met him. But, somehow I was influenced, and hey-presto, here I am with a "bread (and other carb) intolerance". He's not to blame though, lol. I am!!! These things tend to creep up over years of indulgence (if a vanilla T2). Then the body starts to whisper, then shout, then complain, then comes the pain, then symptoms. I hope I've caught it at the shout stage.

Great tip on making my own vegan shakes. Will have a go once I've drunk my way through these. Unfortunately lactose intolerant so have to be vegan. Thanks also for the tip on how to reduce the sweetness, @ColinUK (btw happy belated birthday!) also suggested adding cocoa and plenty of ice.

It doesn't have to be a shake but the other products on offer from Extante were non-vegan and I wanted to try the Newcastle plan which seemed to suggest Extante as a popular choice, so I thought give it a go.

I'm around 80kg but last year was at 77kg at my best pre-Xmas, with my target at 60kg. So I have some way to go.

It's interesting that you have reduced your meat intake, added OO etc. and inadvertently noticed the health benefits that come along with it. I definitely feel exercise plus lo-carb-lo-fat vegan, for me, is the way to go, basically lots of heathy green and colourful cruciferous veg, salads, soups, stir fries, tofu, easy on the EVOO, fruits in moderation and plenty of water to bulk it out to get that satiated feeling. It was really working for me pre-Christmas so hope I can continue to make progress in this new year. My challenge is when I get stressed I tend to reach for something comforting often carby so I have to be mindful of when I'm feeling stressed and respond in a healthful way like taking a walk or drinking water.

Just as a final point, I went to Vision Express last week Wednesday to check my eyesight as I know loss and deterioration of eyesight can be an indicator of DB complications. Anyway, I hadn't been for a check up in perhaps over ten years and I noticed my eyesight was not as sharp as many years ago. The prescription wasn't terrible IMO. The last test many years ago I had registered 0.25 in each eye. This time I registered 0.75 in each eye and was told I needed glasses for driving and reading. No other problem. No glaucoma, cataract, blocked tiny vessels, etc. I ordered a set of glasses and lenses to be collected soon. But the Optician gave me the following tips when asked what can be done to improve eyesight and stop the white cholesterol rings that can form around the pupils:
1. Reduce red meat and
2. eat KALE, not carrots, kale!


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## MAC2020 (Jan 31, 2021)

Ditto said:


> I always have to use up every single thing, can't bear waste, so now I shop daily. I know with the virus we're just supposed to do one big weekly shop but I go off the rails when it comes to food, so daily is better for me. I can get my head around that.  Good luck peoples with the healthy food plans, I hope you all find one that suits. I think I've cracked it now (from my lips to God's ears).


Yes I really understand frequent grocery shopping. I lived in France some years ago and picked up their habit of grocery shopping every two to three days. They didn't do big weekly shops like we do here in UK and stick things in the freezer. They even buy baguettes daily which was great when I was eating them, but off the menu these days.

When I was younger and living in London in my first flat, I was so frustrated that I couldn't get through refrigerated food before they went off and I had to throw them away. Those days the supermarkets didn't offer single sized anything. They are better now, but it was a real struggle back then.


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## zuludog (Jan 31, 2021)

My Exante vegan MRPs are expected in a day or two, then I'll report back

As you might know, there are a lot of videos and books about lactose intolerance
Search YT & Amazon books, and play around with their Search Boxes for things like lactose/dairy free weight loss, smoothies, recipes, and so on

You could try putting ground or milled nuts into a shake or smoothie, but you would probably need to shake it up a few times as you drank it
There are also things like pea flour but I'm not sure what they would be like raw

It might be worth having a good browse round a Chinese or Indian or Health Food shop; they have all sorts of things
I have always found the staff at my local Holland & Barrett shop helpful and pleasant. If you get their loyalty card they send you offers now and again

I think Exante have vegan meals & soups & bars besides shakes - have a look at their website

I gave up most processed food especially meat, junk food, convenience food some time ago, and recently I've been more careful about that sort of thing
Obviously when I was diagnosed I cut down a lot on carbs, but now I'm trying to reduce carbs to next to nothing
And as you do that sort of thing your intake of salt, fat etc is reduced automatically
I'm not vegetarian or vegan, but I'm more conscious about that sort of thing
I have increased the amount of fish I eat, especially oily fish
I've reduced the amount of chicken I eat; certainly battery chicken as it isn't so good. Sometimes I get a properly reared one, but there is the problem of living on my own, and I freeze some of the cooked meat

I like tomatoes, but for a long time I didn't like tinned fish such as sardines; then I realised it was the tomato sauce I didn't like, so now I get fish in brine or oil
I also do sprouted seeds

Many people take diagnosis with D as the motivation to change their diet and  so on
I've heard the comment - I'm healthier now I have diabetes than I ever was before

I can remember when everyone cooked with lard
Once my Mum particularly wanted olive oil for something and she had to get it in a small bottle from the chemist
Then along came Mazola, and it all started to change

I don't do much frying, so the only oil I use is olive oil
I don't especially get virgin or extra virgin, I'm happy enough with the ordinary promiscuous stuff!
I just look on the shelves for anything that looks reasonable

I was diagnosed in 1998, though looking back it had  been building up for months before that.
Although I wear glasses I haven't got any diabetic problems in my eyes, or anywhere else as far as I can tell, but it's not easy keeping it like that


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## MAC2020 (Jan 31, 2021)

zuludog said:


> My Exante vegan MRPs are expected in a day or two, then I'll report back
> 
> As you might know, there are a lot of videos and books about lactose intolerance
> Search YT & Amazon books, and play around with their Search Boxes for things like lactose/dairy free weight loss, smoothies, recipes, and so on
> ...


Thanks so much!! Lovely ideas.

I have a friend who swears by sprouted seeds. Says it's life giving!!!


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## MAC2020 (Feb 1, 2021)

@zuludog happy to confirm Vegan Coffee, Chocolate, and Blueberry all taste fine to me. Only vegan Banana lets the side down. Will experiment ways to improve Banana's taste as I have 14 more sachets to get through!


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## zuludog (Feb 1, 2021)

MAC2020 said:


> @zuludog happy to confirm Vegan Coffee, Chocolate, and Blueberry all taste fine to me. Only vegan Banana lets the side down. Will experiment ways to improve Banana's taste as I have 14 more sachets to get through!


You could try making it up with gin!


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## zuludog (Feb 1, 2021)

Search YouTube for Exante Diet, there are lots of references; especially 'Kate's Losing It'


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## MAC2020 (Feb 1, 2021)

zuludog said:


> Search YouTube for Exante Diet, there are lots of references; especially 'Kate's Losing It'


Will do!


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## MAC2020 (Feb 1, 2021)

zuludog said:


> You could try making it up with gin!


LOL!!!


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## zuludog (Feb 3, 2021)

MAC2020 said:


> @zuludog happy to confirm Vegan Coffee, Chocolate, and Blueberry all taste fine to me. Only vegan Banana lets the side down. Will experiment ways to improve Banana's taste as I have 14 more sachets to get through!


I quoted this post so you would get an alert

My vegan Exante shakes came a couple of days ago -

Banana Bread - You're right, it's not very nice, It has a strange bitter aftertaste and it feels like granules in the water; also it doesn't mix very well. I drank it without too much trouble but I wouldn't buy it again

Coffee and Walnut - This was OK apart from the texture, see later

Plain Banana - The taste was OK, if a bit sweet; it had that same gritty texture

I have a few others to try but I'm expecting the same sort of results. They are definitely inferior to the ordinary ones based on SMP

They're not so easy to mix up, especially the Banana Bread.
I started with the ordinary Banana with a jug & fork, and it was quite lumpy, so I transferred it to an Exante shaker jar which was better; also a shaker jar for the Banana Bread and the Coffee & Walnut

They have fine solid material in them, and the ingredients show that this is probably oat flour. Not too bad but you should shake it each time you have a drink, which is fiddly
The SMP ones dissolved to be quite smooth

I think that if you can't tolerate lactose you might be able to  live with the vegan ones as long as they're no worse, apart from the Banana Bread

So really it's a question of using them and keeping your eyes on the target weight
I think on some of the YouTube Exante videos they show making up the shakes into a meal, like pancakes or a keto cake.


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## MAC2020 (Feb 4, 2021)

zuludog said:


> I quoted this post so you would get an alert
> 
> My vegan Exante shakes came a couple of days ago -
> 
> ...


Good morning @zuludog, glad your sachets arrived and thanks for the update.
Also happy to hear that you also found the vegan banana bread taste not very nice. So far the only way I've been able to improve the taste is to dilute it a little more with lots more ice cubes and a touch more water. I use a blender to make up the shakes and even with a blender it's still a little granular, so I concur, I wouldn't buy them again. Beginners enthusiasm mistake to buy 15 of them in one go. Oh well! Live and learn.

I don't know whether it's getting shakes or my schedule these last few days but I've only been having one morning shake plus one evening meal. I haven't been calorie counting the evening meal so don't exactly know whether there will be beneficial weight loss but will see how I get on in the coming weeks and months. I need to lose about 20kgs or 3 stones in old money.


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## zuludog (Feb 4, 2021)

MAC2020 said:


> Good morning @zuludog, glad your sachets arrived and thanks for the update.
> Also happy to hear that you also found the vegan banana bread taste not very nice. So far the only way I've been able to improve the taste is to dilute it a little more with lots more ice cubes and a touch more water. I use a blender to make up the shakes and even with a blender it's still a little granular, so I concur, I wouldn't buy them again. Beginners enthusiasm mistake to buy 15 of them in one go. Oh well! Live and learn.
> 
> I don't know whether it's getting shakes or my schedule these last few days but I've only been having one morning shake plus one evening meal. I haven't been calorie counting the evening meal so don't exactly know whether there will be beneficial weight loss but will see how I get on in the coming weeks and months. I need to lose about 20kgs or 3 stones in old money.


Yes, beginners enthusiasm!
I ordered a 4 week kit from Exante as it seemed a good way to try  several of their products; plus I wanted the shaker

I also bought some MRPs,  from local shops - H & B, Boots, ASDA, Tesco

Oh well, at least you have found a way to make the vegan MRPs at least edible, even if they're not absolutely wonderful

You could combine the vegan MRPs with other suitable weight loss diets & meals
Use the Search box on YT for vegan/dairy free weight loss meals and similar wording
Isn't there a vegan or a lactose intolerance society/association? no harm in asking their advice


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## zuludog (Feb 4, 2021)

I've just re - read your post
One shake and one evening meal? That's good!
I hope you show some weight loss soon, that's always encouraging, and that you keep it up to your target

I resist the temptation to weigh myself too often; just once a week. I do it every Monday morning, first thing, before I've even had a cup of coffee, without any clothes on (don't let me put you off your dinner!) 

Let us know how you go on


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## MAC2020 (Feb 16, 2021)

zuludog said:


> I've just re - read your post
> One shake and one evening meal? That's good!
> I hope you show some weight loss soon, that's always encouraging, and that you keep it up to your target
> 
> ...


Yes, will do.


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## KJS (Feb 21, 2021)

Hi all,

I started Exante yesterday and already I have had a terrible headache all morning that hasn’t been received with paracetamol.
I feel weak and a bit light headed and the thought of my lunch shake is making me feel nauseous.

is this normal? Has anyone experienced this on the second day?


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## Leadinglights (Feb 21, 2021)

Many years ago I tried some sort of nutrient shake meal replacement  but I can't remember what it was called now. Same thing dreadful headache, felt nauseous but thought must persevere so had the second one and within an hour was violently sick. I thought that's how it works to make you lose weight. So I'm afraid they went in the bin, not cheap either if I remember.


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## MAC2020 (Feb 21, 2021)

I have started the Extante Vegan shakes MRP. I haven't been sick or violently ill. I did dislike one of the flavours, Banana bread, on account of its taste but that is all so far. Also I'm on the vegan shakes, not the normal ones.

So sorry you've had a bad experience with them. Maybe you are allergic to one or more of the ingredients?


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## AngelSprings (Feb 22, 2021)

Hi Mac2020 and other lovely contributors

Interesting to read that you are going to give Exante Meal Replacements a trial.  Is this to lose weight?  

Why I ask is because I was diagnosed as prediabetic approx two years ago, and followed rigidly a low carb/keto diet, but didn't lose a pound and had no energy.  One contributor to the Red Site suggested that I limit my low carb meals to two a day, which I did but still no weight loss.
For a while I went a bit off the rails and included small amounts of potato, other root vegetables, and three or four multi-grain Ryvitas a day.  And it was when I did this that my energy levels returned to normal. However, I do not know what made me have a rethink but about a month ago I went back to low carb eating.

I do find it quite easy to miss breakfast, and for lunch usually have meat and above the ground vegetables, but can't manage without a good gravy usually made with 1/2 to one tablespoonful of Bisto granules.   And around 5/6 o'clock will have a Seriously Low Carb Roll filled with protein and bits of salad.  This usually fills me until about 8 o'clock, and then I will snack on three chicken wings or a boiled egg or similar.

I'm getting on in years now, but in the past have lost over three stone at Weightwatchers several times, so I'm petty dedicated to sticking to a diet.  I don't mess around, what's the point when you've paid for meetings.

But I'd love to lose a couple of stones.  Anyone have any ideas why I'm not losing?

Best wishes.

P.S. I do enjoy walking and will do three miles or so two or three times a week.


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## MAC2020 (Feb 23, 2021)

AngelSprings said:


> Hi Mac2020 and other lovely contributors
> 
> Interesting to read that you are going to give Exante Meal Replacements a trial.  Is this to lose weight?
> 
> ...


Hi @AngelSprings

Yes I am trying Exante shakes to lose weight. I want to lose 20kgs approx 3 stones. Many on here have had success losing this and more, so I am going to give it a go. I was doing well in autumn of last year, down to 77kg but Christmas, Covid and comfort eating sabotaged my progress and I am back to over 80kgs. So now the hard work begins again.

Well done at previously losing 3 stones with WW. Several times! Good job. Yes why pay and not lose weight? You certainly have the discipline and determination. But I think weight loss success and beating DB is built around a mind shift. Not so much a diet, more a lifestyle. Your new normal.

I notice at family gatherings just how much carbs people, usually younger people, are eating, and am horrified because I know I used to eat like that. Now I can't do breads, rice, pasta, potatoes let alone all in one buffet style meal.

I'm like you. I can quite easily miss breakfast, or break the fast later in the day so it's actually lunchtime before I eat, like today I haven't eaten yet and it's passed midday. I don't feel hungry either. I can do long fasting times like fast for 18 hours and only eat one or two meals between 6 hrs quite easily, without thought. Doing so I need to be mindful with portion control as it can be tempting to overload a small saucer with food. Sabotage again!

To lose weight take a look at what you're drinking. Could be hidden sugars in there like in alcohol. Also think about hidden sugars in sauces and condiments. The food industry is very sneaky. Low fat or free from often means high sugar so scrutinise labels. And like me you like walking so see if you can walk 3 miles six or seven times a week or everyday. Once you master that take longer walks or walk a little faster. Your body will soon thank you for it.

But you are doing FANTASTICALLY WELL for 83! I'm exactly thirty years younger so I'd benefit from you mentoring me!


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## Drummer (Feb 23, 2021)

AngelSprings said:


> Hi Mac2020 and other lovely contributors
> Why I ask is because I was diagnosed as prediabetic approx two years ago, and followed rigidly a low carb/keto diet, but didn't lose a pound and had no energy.  One contributor to the Red Site suggested that I limit my low carb meals to two a day, which I did but still no weight loss.
> For a while I went a bit off the rails and included small amounts of potato, other root vegetables, and three or four multi-grain Ryvitas a day.  And it was when I did this that my energy levels returned to normal. However, I do not know what made me have a rethink but about a month ago I went back to low carb eating.
> But I'd love to lose a couple of stones.  Anyone have any ideas why I'm not losing?
> ...


I suspect that you were not eating enough fat to supply the energy you needed, and might just not be eating enough, so your metabolism is carefully cherishing every bit of food as there is (obviously) a famine in the land.
I only eat twice a day, but I have two proper meals with meat or fish and salad or veges - but only 40 gm of carbs a day maximum.
When first diagnosed I was eating 50 gm a day, but that was 4 years ago, and I lost weight without trying - just realised it was gone one day.


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## travellor (Feb 23, 2021)

Drummer said:


> I suspect that you were not eating enough fat to supply the energy you needed, and might just not be eating enough, so your metabolism is carefully cherishing every bit of food as there is (obviously) a famine in the land.
> I only eat twice a day, but I have two proper meals with meat or fish and salad or veges - but only 40 gm of carbs a day maximum.
> When first diagnosed I was eating 50 gm a day, but that was 4 years ago, and I lost weight without trying - just realised it was gone one day.


Meat, fish , salad and veggies?
Do you add butter, or cream, or some form of extra fat, or fry everything in a coconut oil.
Where does the extra fat come from to build up the energy?


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## Drummer (Feb 23, 2021)

I buy chicken either as whole chickens or thighs with the skin on and bone in, and I do not remove the skin - except to eat it, I cook vegetables in the tray beneath the chicken or other meat, so all of it is eaten. 
I do scrambled eggs with butter - not huge amounts, a block of butter lasts a month so half an ounce. I have cream in my coffee and buy a large tub of Greek yoghurt 1kg twice each month.

It isn't really extra fat, just the fat which is in the foods naturally and very like the foods I ate when I lived at home.


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## travellor (Feb 23, 2021)

Drummer said:


> I buy chicken either as whole chickens or thighs with the skin on and bone in, and I do not remove the skin - except to eat it, I cook vegetables in the tray beneath the chicken or other meat, so all of it is eaten.
> I do scrambled eggs with butter - not huge amounts, a block of butter lasts a month so half an ounce. I have cream in my coffee and buy a large tub of Greek yoghurt 1kg twice each month.
> 
> It isn't really extra fat, just the fat which is in the foods naturally and very like the foods I ate when I lived at home.


Chicken thighs, skin on are a favourite too. Usually slow cooked in the crock pot in a curry. I figure if the skin is on, they haven't been tumbled with other stuff to bulk them up.
Scrambled eggs with cheese and chives works for me. 
Butter does last forever to be fair as well.
I'm partial to decent sausage, just meat, no bulking, and probably the belly pork minced rather than low fat.
So maybe our diets aren't actually too different, and we are concentrating way too much on the names, and not the actual substances here?
(Although, I really don't like cream in coffee, and bulletproof coffee just sounds so wrong, so there is a gap there maybe)


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## Drummer (Feb 23, 2021)

I have a hot air fryer - made by Tefal. I throw in a pack of thighs and set it going - they come out all moist inside but the skins are crispy, so I fish them out and then cook button mushrooms in the juices, whilst the chicken skins tend to evaporate.....
Scrambled eggs, cheese (Red Leicester) and a thinly sliced tomato on top when it is just cooked, plate on the top for two minutes so the tomato is just warmed.....
Sausages - we had a real butcher just around the corner, closed now (sigh) so we have to make do with the best that the Co-op can supply - but the lowest on the hog I go for a joint of meat is shoulder - leg would always be my first choice, for the crackling.
I keep butter in the freezer, cut the packs in half to keep it fresh.
Curry - I prefer lamb or hogget, then served over chopped cauliflower.
I suspect that given half a chance we could open a restaurant and have half the forum members clamouring at the door to get in - in more normal times.


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## travellor (Feb 23, 2021)

Drummer said:


> I have a hot air fryer - made by Tefal. I throw in a pack of thighs and set it going - they come out all moist inside but the skins are crispy, so I fish them out and then cook button mushrooms in the juices, whilst the chicken skins tend to evaporate.....
> Scrambled eggs, cheese (Red Leicester) and a thinly sliced tomato on top when it is just cooked, plate on the top for two minutes so the tomato is just warmed.....
> Sausages - we had a real butcher just around the corner, closed now (sigh) so we have to make do with the best that the Co-op can supply - but the lowest on the hog I go for a joint of meat is shoulder - leg would always be my first choice, for the crackling.
> I keep butter in the freezer, cut the packs in half to keep it fresh.
> ...


Pork joint in the slow cooker.
Pull off the skin, slice it up, and bake on 250 in the oven for crackling.


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## Drummer (Feb 24, 2021)

I am going to get a joint of pork out of the freezer before I go to bed.


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## AngelSprings (Feb 24, 2021)

Hi
Cor blimey, thank you all for your great replies!  All this talk of food is making me feel very hungry. I've just gone into this page to reply to Maca2020's kind posting, but I'll have a closer look at what you all have to say in a short while.  Many thanks.


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## AngelSprings (Feb 24, 2021)

Hi Maca2020
Thank you for your comprehensive reply to my query on how to shift weight yet still stick to a low carb diet.  I've taken on board the helpful comments about checking the carb content of sauces and alcohol and will do this.

If weight loss was my only priority I could be tempted to go back to Weightwatchers, but keeping blood glucose levels within the normal range must come first.  And though I lost weight with WW I was always hungry on the diet.  At least with a low carb diet one can fill up on protein and fats and it does seem to satisfy more than restricting calories.

I'd like to have the energy to walk every day but I don't.  To walk three or four miles every other day is my limit.  However, it's amazing how many steps one can clock up even when food shopping.

I hope you have a lot of success with the Exante diet, and please keep us informed on your progress.  Before Covid I had a few treatments with a local beautician, and she and her husband were on the Lighter Life diet.  Apparently, he was a long distance lorry driver and his diet was pretty dire, but on Lighter Life he lost stones and reversed his diabetes. However, they seemed reluctant to return to normal eating , and lived on shakes, bars, and soups, which seems a bit unnatural.

Right that's brought me to lunchtime and I can eat!  I'm having a Seriously Low Carb roll filled with salad and a portion of sea bass.  If I discover a magic bullet to lose weight I shall contact you immediately!

Best wishes to you and everyone.


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## travellor (Feb 24, 2021)

AngelSprings said:


> Hi Maca2020
> Thank you for your comprehensive reply to my query on how to shift weight yet still stick to a low carb diet.  I've taken on board the helpful comments about checking the carb content of sauces and alcohol and will do this.
> 
> If weight loss was my only priority I could be tempted to go back to Weightwatchers, but keeping blood glucose levels within the normal range must come first.  And though I lost weight with WW I was always hungry on the diet.  At least with a low carb diet one can fill up on protein and fats and it does seem to satisfy more than restricting calories.
> ...


I reversed my diabetes by losing weight.
BG is important, but it's a symptom of diabetes, not the cause, and to be honest after a couple of days on the shakes, my BG was well into the normal range


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## AngelSprings (Feb 24, 2021)

Drummer, Travellor -Thank you for your helpful suggestions, I do in fact include quite a bit of fat in my diet in the form of belly pork, ribeye steak, lamb chops, chicken, cream in my coffee, and I love goat's cheese.  Chicken skin is the best bit, plus it's a good source of collagen.  So I don't really think I'm short of fats in my diet.

Quite a few years ago I did try the Atkins Diet and was on the recommended 20 grams of carbs but yet again did not lose weight.  So I still have the dilemma of why am I not losing weight, but I shall persevere with the low carb diet because I don't have much of an alternative.  At least it's lowering my blood glucose numbers.

I agree with you Travellor that losing weight is the way to reversing diabetes, but I have a friend who is tall and slim, perhaps 9.1/2 stone and she was diagnosed as Type 2 Diabetic a while ago. So why does she have diabetes?  There must be other factors at work.

My best wishes to you both.


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## Bloden (Feb 24, 2021)

Ditto said:


> What an exciting diet. Kill me now.
> 
> I do luv SlimFasts. A chocolate shake goes lovely with fish and chips.


Hahahahahahahahaha, you’re hilarious @Ditto. You had me larfing out loud. I’m glad I wasn’t drinking a banana Exante at the time, I’d’ve choked on it. 

How are you getting on @zuludog?


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## zuludog (Feb 27, 2021)

Bloden said:


> Hahahahahahahahaha, you’re hilarious @Ditto. You had me larfing out loud. I’m glad I wasn’t drinking a banana Exante at the time, I’d’ve choked on it.
> 
> How are you getting on @zuludog?


How am I getting on ?.................I wonder that myself sometimes, but thanks for asking

To remind you, in August 2020 I was over 89kg , but never quite went to 90kg
Thanks to recommendations from a friend and Colin UK on this forum I started on a diet plan, based on Exante products and Roy Taylor's book Life without Diabetes
On the morning of Christmas Eve I was 83,2kg, which I thought was reasonable progress
My initial target was <85kg, and if possible to get to 80kg, so that seemed feasible

Then a few things happened together -

I had planned on a couple of treats and some relaxation from the regime over Christmas, which I thought was fair enough
It was winter, and cold
I had a cold in January
Like everyone else I was getting fed up with The Lockdown - not exactly depressed, but the novelty had definitely worn off

All these combined to make me drift away from my diet
I didn't exactly pig myself on pie & chips & cream cakes, but I did eat a bit more

Something I have stuck to though is that I only weigh myself once a week, first thing on Monday mornings
Last Monday, 22/02/21 I was 86,7kg
So yes, my weight has gone up, but not, I think, impossibly; so now I'm back on the straight and narrow

Spring is just about here, and I'm feeling more optimistic
I seem to have spent a year indoors.........probably because I have, apart from shopping
So this year I'm determined to get out more, and have started to do longer and more circuitous routes to the shops, doctors, bank, etc, and I'll build up from there

My freezer is full
I've been making veg stews, but they tend to expand, so I've been storing some in bags & tubs in the freezer; also it's well stocked with frozen veg & fish
One useful thing I did over winter was to tidy out my cupboards, and I have several cans of sardines, and chick peas
The Section One meals in Roy Taylor's book are a bit severe, so I'll probably have something slightly more substantial about once a week, like fish & veg, or a sardine or chick pea salad - my Saturday night treat!
Yes, I know there are some carbs in chick peas, but I'm not talking about having can after can, day after day

I'm not usually very hungry first thing in the morning - breakfast is coffee & coffee with a cup of coffee - but if I do feel hungry I have a single oatcake with a scrape of Marmite
Just recently though I've discovered rice cakes, so I've been having one of those with Marmite sometimes.
Then only a couple of days ago I discovered that you can get rice cakes that are already Marmited - Oh, what joy!

And I think that's enough for now
I'll let you know when I get below 85kg again, which will hopefully be around mid March


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## pat7762 (Mar 11, 2021)

just tried the exante double chocolate,it's "vile"does not taste like chocolate tastes like chemicals,threw the whole lot away,i also got the coffee and walnut and thats ok,wondering whether to try banana but it's expensive if i have to throw that away.


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