# Ban high-sugar cereals to tackle child obesity, says Andy Burnham



## Northerner (Jan 5, 2013)

The government should ban high-sugar cereals such as Coco Pops and other foods that are contributing to an obesity epidemic among British children, the shadow health secretary has urged.

Regulations limiting the amount of sugar, salt and fat in processed foods should be considered if the food industry does not take action itself, according to Labour's Andy Burnham, who has begun a consultation on how to tackle obesity.

Burnham highlighted the case of breakfast cereals, saying many aimed at children are more than one-third sugar by weight.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jan/05/ban-sugary-cereals-child-obesity

These suggestions are idiotic really, everything is looked at so simplistically! I grew up eating weetabix caked in sugar, frosties, sugar puffs, bread and dripping, toast dripping with butter and goodness knows what else! So did most of my peers, and yet there was usually only one or two overweight children in the class throughout my school life. Breakfast cereals may be a factor, but banning them is not a solution - it depends on so many other things, like what they eat for the rest of the day, how active they are, what opportunities to get active are available, how adventurous their parents allow them to be, their role models and examples, their body image, the marketing they are subjected to - I would run out of computer ink if I listed it all! People are incredibly complex!


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## LeeLee (Jan 5, 2013)

Legislation will never fix the problem.  In my opinion, snacking and the availability of unhealthy junk to graze on between meals is a far larger problem.  These snacks do not contribute anything to the diet except calories, yet try to find a fresh banana in any corner shop.


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## Twitchy (Jan 5, 2013)

Our primary school is supposedly a 'healthy school' (govt gimmick), yet every single fundraining activity seems to be obsessively linked to flogging sweets & chocolate, sugary fizzy drinks etc to the kids (school disco, Christmas fair etc)...& recently they started selling milk shakes & fruit juice (as in the cartons I used to use to treat hypos!) at lunch time. Talk about mixed messages!!!  Especially given that they weighed all the kids recently & sent snotty letters home to the parents of kids with overweight etc bmi. Thankfully several parents complained & they stopped selling drinks, just need them to stop trying to ram sugar down the kids necks at every opportunity now...


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## Northerner (Jan 5, 2013)

Twitchy said:


> Our primary school is supposedly a 'healthy school' (govt gimmick), yet every single fundraining activity seems to be obsessively linked to flogging sweets & chocolate, sugary fizzy drinks etc to the kids (school disco, Christmas fair etc)...& recently they started selling milk shakes & fruit juice (as in the cartons I used to use to treat hypos!) at lunch time. Talk about mixed messages!!!  Especially given that they weighed all the kids recently & sent snotty letters home to the parents of kids with overweight etc bmi. Thankfully several parents complained & they stopped selling drinks, just need them to stop trying to ram sugar down the kids necks at every opportunity now...



Yes, I suppose that is something that has changed a lot since my schooldays - we used to have proper two-course meals for school dinners and there was far less snacking or fizzy/sugary drinks consumed. I remember my mum used to give us a little bag of cocoa mixed with sugar that you would dip your finger into for a snack which would last ages so not a lot of actual sugar consumed - wonder if kids would turn their noses up at that these days?


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## everydayupsanddowns (Jan 5, 2013)

Sigh! 

The sugar on those cereals is not the problem with them. I dispair about the fixation with sugar as the 'enemy', when its reputation for speed of absorption and calorific emptiness applies almost equally to the cereal they gloop it onto!

As you say Alan, there's a lot more to it than that - and there needs to be a general cultural shift away from constant eating/snacking to have any effect.


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## mcdonagh47 (Jan 5, 2013)

everydayupsanddowns said:


> Sigh!
> 
> As you say Alan, there's a lot more to it than that - and there needs to be a general cultural shift away from constant eating/snacking to have any effect.



That's why the original statement included the phrase "contributing to". Did you and Northerner miss that ?
Nobody was simplistically suggesting that high sugar cereals are the only problem.


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## HOBIE (Jan 5, 2013)

Good for the mp, Sticking his neck out & making some noise to sort the "food industry" out !!!!


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## Northerner (Jan 5, 2013)

mcdonagh47 said:


> That's why the original statement included the phrase "contributing to". Did you and Northerner miss that ?
> Nobody was simplistically suggesting that high sugar cereals are the only problem.



Well, no - my point was that cereals today are exactly what I used to eat, so picking them out and legislating about them is not going to change anything. Kids will probably just pour extra sugar on them anyway. It's more about how that sugar is used once consumed. How many kids walk to school today, and what do they do at break and lunchtimes? We used to have big playgrounds and a big field at my secondary school - all built-up now. You weren't allowed out of school at lunchtimes unless you were going home for lunch, so no going to the chippy to fill your face with chips instead of getting a (stodgy, yes) more balanced meal (and one that you had very little choice about). Maybe portion size with breakfasts is part of the problem - do kids actually just eat more than we used to (I have no idea, not having any kids)?


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## Pumper_Sue (Jan 5, 2013)

Biggest problem is children today come home from school and sit in front of the tv and or the computer.
During my school days it was home from school, do your homework eat tea and out of the door until bedtime. (Execise)


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## trophywench (Jan 5, 2013)

Well, I think any woman who lived through the War ought to know about portion control and nutrition since the Min of Food ably assisted by one Marguerite Patten, from the Good Housekeeping Institute specifically taught em about it.  Mary Berry of Great British Bake-Off fame worked for the GHI and the Electricity Board.  Also well into the 1970's the Milk Marketing Board did fantastic recipe books and all sorts of nutritional info.

Unfortunately for whatever reason some of these ladies weren't good parents and didn't pass on what they knew to their kids .........


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## mcdonagh47 (Jan 5, 2013)

Northerner said:


> Well, no - my point was that cereals today are exactly what I used to eat, so picking them out and legislating about them is not going to change anything.[\QUOTE]
> 
> well, no - you dismissed Burnham's suggestion as "idiotic" and "simplistic" because a lot of other factors were involved. But Burnham knows that - that's why the phrase "contributing to" was used. And that's why the title of this thread is wrong.
> But what are you suggesting - that no contributing factor can be tackled because there so many of them ? It wasn't an either/or suggestion from Burnham, he wants action in the whole of this area.
> ...


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## Tina63 (Jan 5, 2013)

A few thoughts from me:

My skinny brother used to eat AT LEAST 14, yes 14 Weetabix A DAY, every day, caked in half an inch of sugar and full fat milk.  He is, and always was, a bag of bones.  We had full fat milk, proper butter, puddings with custard or a milk pudding every day, but like others, were very active.  We walked/biked to school (a mile away), we spent the whole of the school holidays outdoors, biking miles to other villages, meeting other children to play with, and being out for 8-10 hours a day in the summer.  We swam daily in our primary school swimming pool when the weather was warm enough, again spending hours each day down there.  I even remember cycling to my grandparents regularly when aged only 5 or 6 and that was a full 5 miles away, up and down hills.  Children these days are more interested in playing on their DSs, computers, mobile phones, watching the tv or playing on games consoles.  Cycling isn't as safe as it was back then, there are way too many cars to make it very safe in most areas, and children just aren't allowed out to play on their own anymore.  Nowadays children expect to be driven everywhere, or at least jump on a bus. Walking is a major deal to them.  Things have changed so much.

All food we ate though was home cooked from scratch.  We mostly ate meat (fish on Fridays) and veg, including potatoes and as I said, always a pudding.  Roast on Sundays, cold leftover meat and veg on Mondays!

I am a childminder and have over 20 years experience.  All the children I look after bring their own packed lunches and some bring an evening meal for me to warm up for them.  Once upon a time I used to cook for them, but it got a joke when I had half a dozen children from four or five different families, all having different tastes, and me struggling to cook any meal that all the children would eat.  I ended up wasting so much.  The one and only thing children these days seem to want to eat is PASTA.  Children are so lazy with food.  They don't seem to be able to use a knife, they all chase food around a plate with a fork.  I remember eating the most ropey bits of meat when I was young, but you were made to chew and chew and you were never allowed to spit it out.  Meat is a hundred times better quality these days, but children now act as if you are trying to poison them with the smallest piece of roast meat, they just won't eat it.  Vegetables too, many will only eat one or two vegetables.  Ask what they would like, and they all say Pasta.  It's easy.  It's soft.  No effort to chew or swallow it.  But most put either bolognese, pesto or cheese sauce on it, and many invariably smother it with cheese too.  So many children end up with constipation too, as they don't have enough roughage in their diets.

Lunchboxes.  Well in our day we had cooked school dinners.  Pretty good quality too.  Again, meat, veg, potatoes and pudding.  Very occasionally we had spaghetti bolognese (I think it had just been invented in the 70's  ) but mostly it was potatoes for carbs.  And water for a drink.

Childrens lunchboxes today - well I would say about 75% of the children I look after have pretty dire lunchboxes, despite all the media hype about them. 

I do have one family whose lunchboxes are wonderful, yesterday they had crackers, cheese, ham, cucumber, celery, crisps, yoghurt & apple.  But this is an exceptional luncbox.  Many have the chocolate spread, cakes, biscuits, crisps, just a token 6 or 7 grapes if they are lucky.

There are all these awful snacky things on the market too aimed at children, some of which are just junk, some encourage awful table manners.  Cheese strings, what are they all about?  They encourage children to pick the cheese to pieces.  Now they make cheese strings spaghetti too. Ok, I appreciate children need some fat and the protein & calcium cheese offers, but just a slice or two in a sandwich would suffice. Dairylea dips.  All sorts of salt rich biscuity/crisp type things to dip into the cheese.  Mini packs of chocolate rich biscuits.  Individual wrapped cakes.  What's wrong with a meat egg or cheese sandwich, a yoghurt and and apple/banana/satsuma or two?

And snacking.  What's that all about???  In the good old days you had 3 square meals a day, and if you were lucky, a cup of warm milk (and sometimes a biscuit) at bedtime.  You were properly hungry and tucked in heartily to your meal, even the bits you weren't too fond of. These days children seem to want to graze all day long, and it seems to be encouraged.  Playgroups, nurseries and infant classes all seem to provide snacks for mid morning and mid afternoon.  If the children ate a decent breakfast they shouldn't need to snack.  We didn't.  I don't think children really understand what hunger really feels like anymore, they are always half full.  They nibble on the junk then can't eat the healthy bits off their plates.  I only ever provide a bit of a snack after school for those not getting an evening meal until probably 6ish, then I offer fruit/veg cut up, and sometimes some cubes of cheese.  It's not meant to be a meal.

Oh dear, look what you've started now!


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## Northerner (Jan 5, 2013)

Hehe, good rant Tina!


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## HOBIE (Jan 5, 2013)

Canny rant Tina,  Well said


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## Tina63 (Jan 5, 2013)

I'm good at ranting, in fact I'd go as far as to say I think I am a professional


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## Lizzzie (Jan 6, 2013)

Enjoying the heat of this debate so thought would add  :0).  

I do think penalising sugary breakfast cereal companies is a bit unfair as there are plenty other Commonly contributing sugar sources not being penalised; why single them out??  - because the Public, having read the media hype, understand that one so the MP is more likely to win votes from it?

Instead, why not reduce taxes on pre-prepared foods eg cereals approved by dieticians on a scientific, health-related basis. So the wholesome, not sugar-laced cereals will become comparable in price and people's perception about the cost of healthy food will change so that they look at it.

It's alright saying 'look what people are feeding their kids how ignorant they are' . you only have to look at the competitive lunch-boxing at many middle-class catchment schools to realise that the middle classes do this for one-Up-man- ship and only need to look round Morrisons to realise that a packet if sugary stuff is a lot cheaper than a packet of good quality cereal and  wholemeal bread costs more than White sliced. 

Sure, there are plenty in the working classes who skimp on money spent on food so they can afford other luxuries.  But if healthy food costs were comparable to less healthy food costs, the temptation wouldn't be there.


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## Vicsetter (Jan 6, 2013)

I would suggest that this is a political stance promoted by some unknown entity.  The title of this thread is that given by the Guardian news reporter.  But why is he targetting breakfast cereals, why not sweets, yes coco-pops are very high in sugar, but rice crispies, cornflakes, crunchy nut are all <20% sugar and yes they do have fructose syrup (not sure if it's HFCS) but it's well down the list of ingredients.  Strangely Bran Flakes is quite high in carb content, although <20% sugar. Honey nut loops are 62% carbs but where would they be without the honey?

Do kids no longer eat Mars Bars (70% carbs), sherbert dabs, lollipops, etc etc. No lets tax rock, sherbert lemons, aniseed balls, milky war (the sweet you can eat between meals) 72% carb etc, etc.  It's just ludicrous and another example of government gone mad. 
I am currently in the middle of reading 'Bad Science' and there seems to be a lot going on here.  Where is the scientific study which states what is responsible for the causes of obesity in children.  Where is the proof that government intervention in any market produces a decline in consumption, do we consume less petrol as prices rise?, are we smoking less, drinking less.  We have seen the price of bread increase a lot in the last few years and I am not aware of a decline in bread consumption.  I do note an increase in people frequenting fast food outlets (name no names). 

to quote Mr Burnham: "Like all parents, I have bought products like cereals and fruit drinks, marketed as more healthy, that contained higher sugar levels than expected," he told the Daily Telegraph. "I don't think that any parent would be comfortable with their child eating something that is 40% sugar."

The answer is there in front of you, educate the children and the parents (but that costs money doesn't it).  I use to smoke, but my children don't , but at a very early age came home saying 'bad daddy moking'.  It's about time Mr Burnham took a leaf out of his own book and started reading the labels on products he buys instead of reading the marketing blurb.  Maybe he should get some research done to find out the causes of obesity before proposing legislation.


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## Twitchy (Jan 6, 2013)

I wonder if the reason breakfast cerealse  was targeted is the assumption that people are assuming that cereal = healthy (ie cereal vs a full fry up) & not realising how sugary they are? Ie with some cereals it's almost like they have an amount of stealthy sugar added, that people might not be aware of & might not tske into account, whereas if you're spooning sugar onto weeetabix you can see exactly what you're adding? 

I think we need to remember that as diabetics we're far more likely to a) bother reading & b) understand the nutrition panels on the back of things. I've been gobsmacked by other parents thinking that a frosties cereal bar would be an acceptable breakfast for a five year old, plus when I casually mdmtioned that the sugars in pure oj are more or less the same per 100ml as coke (dep on brand obviously), jaws literally dropped. People are surprisingly trusting - if the big friendly tiger on tv tells them this is a grrrrrreat breakfast for kids, they think 'the govt has standards for ads, so it must be true'.  

Sorry if that seems patronising, it's mot meant to be- it's just observations from chats with other mums.


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## Northerner (Jan 6, 2013)

Twitchy said:


> I wonder if the reason breakfast cerealse  was targeted is the assumption that people are assuming that cereal = healthy (ie cereal vs a full fry up) & not realising how sugary they are? Ie with some cereals it's almost like they have an amount of stealthy sugar added, that people might not be aware of & might not tske into account, whereas if you're spooning sugar onto weeetabix you can see exactly what you're adding?
> 
> I think we need to remember that as diabetics we're far more likely to a) bother reading & b) understand the nutrition panels on the back of things. I've been gobsmacked by other parents thinking that a frosties cereal bar would be an acceptable breakfast for a five year old, plus when I casually mdmtioned that the sugars in pure oj are more or less the same per 100ml as coke (dep on brand obviously), jaws literally dropped. People are surprisingly trusting - if the big friendly tiger on tv tells them this is a grrrrrreat breakfast for kids, they think 'the govt has standards for ads, so it must be true'.
> 
> Sorry if that seems patronising, it's mot meant to be- it's just observations from chats with other mums.



No. I think you do have a very good point. One of the problems that seems to have emerged is that marketeers are able to subtly deceive the public into thinking things are healthy by, for example, labelling them as 'low-fat' and then stuffing them full of salt or sugar. There has been quite a demonising of fat over the years to the point where a lot of people think that is the only unhealthy component to look out for.

p.s. your post was the 400,000th post to the forum Twitchy!


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## Tina63 (Jan 6, 2013)

I know this debate is really about breakfast cereal, but actually loads of kids these days have toast and chocolate spread for breakfast - not cereals!  

And the whole eating thing, well it's got a lot more to do with convenience foods than just the damn cereal.  Takeaways.  Microwave meals.  Ready made jars/cans/plastic containers of ready made sauces.  Eating out, invariably involving some chips/creamy sauce/sickly pudding.  

30-40 years ago eating out was a rare treat.  You went to your Nan's where again you got meat and two veg.  Takeaways, well I didn't eat a Chinese or Indian before I was 21!  Now children are brought up on them.  

Working parents don't have the time mums did in previous generations.  Who wants to get home at 6pm with two tired children, then turn round and prepare all the vegetables and a casserole, and wait 2 hours before it's all ready?  It just doesn't happen.  Family life has changed so much in just a generation or two.

What would my mum say?  We need a war to sort them all out!


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## Vicsetter (Jan 6, 2013)

Tina63 said:


> I know this debate is really about breakfast cereal, but actually loads of kids these days have toast and chocolate spread for breakfast - not cereals!
> 
> And the whole eating thing, well it's got a lot more to do with convenience foods than just the damn cereal.  Takeaways.  Microwave meals.  Ready made jars/cans/plastic containers of ready made sauces.  Eating out, invariably involving some chips/creamy sauce/sickly pudding.
> 
> ...



To be fair, if you re-read what was reported, breakfast cereal was given as an example and the manufacturers do produce special cereals for children and they are basically the ones higher with sugar content (although a lot seem to contain honey and not sugar), coco pops, honey nut loops etc.
It doesn't need to take 2 hours to make a meal  scratch cooking can be as quick if not quicker than so called ready meals and it's certainly a lot cheaper than a take away.


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## MaryPlain (Jan 6, 2013)

Vicsetter said:


> It doesn't need to take 2 hours to make a meal  scratch cooking can be as quick if not quicker than so called ready meals and it's certainly a lot cheaper than a take away.



I keep seeing this and I'm sure it must be true for some people, but try as I might, I find it extremely difficult to prepare anything from scratch in less than an hour.  I think I'm particularly picky about making sure that veggies are properly washed, I haven't got the knack of chopping quickly (and please don't anyone tell me to practise, I've had lots!) and even washing and chopping salad seems to be more time consuming than it appears on TV shows.

Perhaps being vegetarian has something to do with it as I can't just cook a piece of meat or fish.

A typical dish I might make would involve peeling and chopping an onion - that's a task in itself - washing and chopping mushrooms and peppers, then whatever other veg or protein source to go with it. When all that's done it has to be cooked. 

I'm not convinced either that cooking from scratch is necessarily healthier than ready meals. It depends, surely, on how much salt you add, among other things. Portion sizes of ready meals tend to be quite a bit smaller (for me anyway) and I noticed when I met Mr P and we started cooking that both of us gained weight, whereas previously I'd just warmed something up each evening and maintained a healthy weight.


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## Northerner (Jan 6, 2013)

I cook up big batches of stuff - chilli, bolognese, curry, sweet and sour etc. then divide into portions and freeze. All I have to do then to eat is to nuke it and put some rice/pasta/potatoes on, chips in the oven or heat pitta breads in the m/w for 45secs  All home-cooked/prepared and about 50-75p a meal!

I don't add salt to anything I cook any more, get my daily salt intake from the bread that I eat. Although I agree, not as easy if you've got several mouths to feed as the whole lot would be quickly gone! Haven't bought a ready meal for years, far too expensive, even the cheaper ones (for me, at least).

I suppose when I was a child there was very little in the way of ready meals - maybe just beans on toast or Vesta meals!  Nowadays you can get practically any meal pre-prepared so more people have been taking advantage of them for a long time now. People often say they don't have time to cook or exercise, but I bet if they did a bit of a time management study they'd discover they waste a lot of time that could be used more profitably in improving their health and well-being


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## trophywench (Jan 6, 2013)

Mary I agree about chopping veg (not assisted by No 1 step-daughter being a chef and laughing at me if she's anywhere near!) but I have a strategy with onions that works very well.

When you cut each end off, don't go quite all the way through, then use the 'tab' to rip the skin and the last later of actual onion right down to the other end, then repeat the other end starting from the same side as the torn part, so then you are left with a brown thing with two white stripes roughly opposite.   Dissect the onion from one white stripe to the other, then you are just peeling the remainder of the skin off two half onions.  Makes it a LOT quicker, but no good whatever if you wanted rings of course!


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## MaryPlain (Jan 6, 2013)

I've been trying that, Northerner - every time I've cooked recently I've attempted to make double portions (which basically takes me almost twice the time in preparation!). One problem I have is that my bolognese, chilli and base for shepherd's pie are so similar that I wouldn't want any of these twice in a week! 

The other problem is that I always forget to get it out of the freezer so it can thaw - and defrosting it seems to take an age. 

I like the sound of your onion technique TW - but I'm not sure I fully understand it. I usually start by slicing through the middle lengthways as this sometimes helps with removing the skin.


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## Northerner (Jan 6, 2013)

No need to thaw Mary, I just blast them in the microwave!


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## MaryPlain (Jan 6, 2013)

Northerner said:


> No need to thaw Mary, I just blast them in the microwave!



Really? I always worry about things not being properly heated through. Also with veggie dishes over microwaving them is a strong possibility - may be different with meat?

How long would you microwave your meal for, and is it for one or two? I'm usually cooking for two.


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## Northerner (Jan 6, 2013)

MaryPlain said:


> Really? I always worry about things not being properly heated through. Also with veggie dishes over microwaving them is a strong possibility - may be different with meat?
> 
> How long would you microwave your meal for, and is it for one or two? I'm usually cooking for two.



Usually blast for 4 minutes, stir, then blast for another 3 minutes. I've been doing it for donkey's years and I'm not dead yet!  Portions for 1 but much more substantial than ready meal portions. I suppose it depends on the veg really - some keep their structure better than others. Peppers and mushrooms are fine, onion does tend to go into the sauce a bit.


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## Lizzzie (Jan 6, 2013)

Twitchy I think you're absolutely right about people being too busy to spend time cooking - and not just cooking, but looking round the supermarket and understanding - food.
I probably come over a bit guardian reader-ish after my last post, but if 2 parents do need to work to keep a household afloat (and this is possible because domestic chores have become easier over the years), decisions about food and shopping / preparing for a healthy meal need to be easier. It currently feels as though supermarkets are trying to 'trick' us and most of society are too stressed or too ignorant to look past the prices and packaging and figure things out.

What a about dietician-led / assessed food labelling / advertising? The food industry would hate it but it would help in the end


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## newbs (Jan 6, 2013)

My eldest (8) has only had 2 meals from a fast food joint in her life, her friends at school seem to have them weekly.  As Twitchy said, my children's school is just the same - a 'healthy' school but has regular cake sales and sells sugary drinks (which I refuse to send money for).  I allow my daughter to have school dinner on a friday as it is fish and chips and she loves that - but for the other days she has a packed lunch so we can make sure she eats healthily.  She asked the other day why we only have 1 tv in the house, her friends think she is odd as she doesn't have one in her room - or a computer for that matter.   I don't want my children to sit at a tv or computer screen for hours each day.  When they come home from school they play, be it on their bikes, out in the garden and on the trampoline in the summer, or playing make-believe things or drawing/jigsaws/games etc.  They never sit still for long, and that's the way I like it.


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## Jimbo (Jan 6, 2013)

Pumper_Sue said:


> Biggest problem is children today come home from school and sit in front of the tv and or the computer.
> During my school days it was home from school, do your homework eat tea and out of the door until bedtime. (Execise)



Absolutely Sue! you don't see many kids doing the same these days. 
It's the completely sedentiary life style that they have now and, if they do go out at all, Mum and Dad are so worried about them that, they get a lift in the car to and from where ever they are going.
Exercise? What exercise?


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## Tina63 (Jan 6, 2013)

Even PE lessons these days are dumbed down.  We used to do 5+ mile cross country runs, in snow, frost, pouring rain, whatever.  Now, if it's wet, they don't seem to go outside for fear of health and safety issues!  They certainly don't go off site and run.  PE lessons at secondary school seem to do as much classroom work discussing rules and tactics as they do actually doing the sport.  It's all gone soft.


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## Steff (Jan 6, 2013)

Tina63 said:


> Even PE lessons these days are dumbed down.  We used to do 5+ mile cross country runs, in snow, frost, pouring rain, whatever.  Now, if it's wet, they don't seem to go outside for fear of health and safety issues!  They certainly don't go off site and run.  PE lessons at secondary school seem to do as much classroom work discussing rules and tactics as they do actually doing the sport.  It's all gone soft.



I've not got involved with this discussion as I'm to dumb to have an opinion on it , but I wanted to agree entirely with Tina on this post she made, I can totally relate now my son is in secondary school, I ask him what he has done and it's oohing just sat discussing this that and other, I even remember pe at school and hated it , if we were not running round our rugby field it was sit ups etc in the hall.


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## lauraw1983 (Jan 6, 2013)

Tina63 said:


> A few thoughts from me:
> 
> My skinny brother used to eat AT LEAST 14, yes 14 Weetabix A DAY, every day, caked in half an inch of sugar and full fat milk.  He is, and always was, a bag of bones.  We had full fat milk, proper butter, puddings with custard or a milk pudding every day, but like others, were very active.  We walked/biked to school (a mile away), we spent the whole of the school holidays outdoors, biking miles to other villages, meeting other children to play with, and being out for 8-10 hours a day in the summer.  We swam daily in our primary school swimming pool when the weather was warm enough, again spending hours each day down there.  I even remember cycling to my grandparents regularly when aged only 5 or 6 and that was a full 5 miles away, up and down hills.  Children these days are more interested in playing on their DSs, computers, mobile phones, watching the tv or playing on games consoles.  Cycling isn't as safe as it was back then, there are way too many cars to make it very safe in most areas, and children just aren't allowed out to play on their own anymore.  Nowadays children expect to be driven everywhere, or at least jump on a bus. Walking is a major deal to them.  Things have changed so much.
> 
> ...



While I don't disagree with a lot of what you have written, I wouldn't like to be one of your parents and seeing that written about what I choose to  put in my child's lunchbox! As their parent it is THEIR decision.

My son (age 6) is very fussy, it has been an issue since he was small - not long after weaning really, and has continued. It's my biggest frustration, and is VERY hard to deal with day to day actually. It's tiring, it's wearing, it's HARD. Especially when we both (have) to work too, and my OH does different shifts all the time too.

Over time us and our childminder HAVE made some breakthroughs with certain foods and it's been great, I'd be over the  moon to know he ate cucumber lol. I have always put veg etc on his plate - but my god the moans and stress it can cause all of us I do wonder sometimes why we bother! At 6pm when we are all tired and hungry, shoot me now, sometimes as a working Mum I take an easier option for the kids dinner. Pasta isn't THAT bad is it!?

The world isn't like it once was, and that's just that. Same as breastfeeding rates have plummeted, lots of parents opt for the easier options at times!!

P.S. Cheese strings have to be the most revolting things I have ever seen and tasted - thankfully my children agree on that too!


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## lauraw1983 (Jan 6, 2013)

Oh and his little sister (age 3) eats a much wider variety of things - both breastfed, both weaned after 6 months, both given very similar foods etc - I used to cook up amazing concoctions for them both!!

So I know it's not just me


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## Twitchy (Jan 6, 2013)

It's not easy working & juggling kids, esp on a budget & esp when you can't just hoof your kids out onto the street to play so you can crack on cooking stuff to freeze etc as it's just not safe (traffic density & sNpeeds if nothing else). Only so much you can do in the evenings & rest has to be fitted in too once in a while...  I work part time, partly because we need my salary but also because I want to set a good work ethic for my kids and because I couldn't drop out of my job while the kids are small & pick it up again later, it's too specialised. I work part time so that we get a balance but it's not easy & does involve some compromise - I too have been known to use kids ready meals at a push  (the m&s ones are lovely btw ) & pasta is a favourite in our house too - with plenty of salad. My older kid has finally (!) started eating salad without excessive grumbling, little one (nearly 3) is still to be convinced. Our kids are a healthy weight etc i suspect because they get lots of active play opportunities & I am a very mean mummy when it comes to sweets, chocs & buscuits...after all, I survived childhood without them lol. The kids are by no means deprived but treats are just that. They eat a wide range of foods but I know we're very lucky that they are not too fussy, phew! I guess like all things it's balance & compromise. If only it were simple & easy, eh?!


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## Twitchy (Jan 6, 2013)

lauraw1983 said:


> Oh and his little sister (age 3) eats a much wider variety of things - both breastfed, both weaned after 6 months, both given very similar foods etc - I used to cook up amazing concoctions for them both!!
> 
> So I know it's not just me



That sounds very familiar - older lad still not keen on meat (roast, boiled, grilled, etc...)...yet his little sister is a proper carnivore!


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## Tina63 (Jan 7, 2013)

lauraw1983 said:


> While I don't disagree with a lot of what you have written, I wouldn't like to be one of your parents and seeing that written about what I choose to  put in my child's lunchbox! As their parent it is THEIR decision.



Laura,

Sorry if I have caused offence, I never meant to. I suppose it was wrong of me to be so explicit about a specific lunchbox.

I have to say as a childminder I have big issues as it's OFSTED who tell us what children should and shouldn't eat.  We are supposedly 'not allowed' to offer things like biscuits to children.  We are only 'allowed' to offer healthy snacks and meals.  In theory (and I went to a big conference in London with a load of childminders/nursery workers who got outstanding gradings) we are meant to send home lunchboxes with 'unhealthy options' uneaten, with a list of things we substituted as alternatives!  We are meant to 'help' parents make 'healthy choices', we are meant to wave the magic wand and solve the nations eating problems just like that!  

How I couldn't more agree that it really is down to parental choice, but we get raked over the coals if when Ofsted do a visit they find us offering children biscuits, or woe betide you if you mention you have EVER taken them to the shop to buy sweets or chocolate.

In an ideal world Ofsted want us growing our own organic vegetables, teaching children the whole process from seed to food on the table, allowing them to dig them up, peel them with sharp knives, the cook them and eat every scrap on their plates.

I have brought up two of my own children and countless others obviously in my job, and know what it's like with fussy eaters.  There are all these programmes on tv these days with real extreme eaters.  In theory, you are just meant to starve them a couple of days then they will eat anything!!  Yeah right!  And it's one thing getting a fussy toddler, just wait until the teenage years hit!  They get worse before they get better.  My two have come out the other side of that now and even sprouts were eaten on Christmas Day!  They both ate them until they were about 7 or 8, then wouldn't touch them again until now - what's that all about???

I appreciate only too well what it's like as working parents.  Though I work from home I don't start preparing our dinner until all the children have gone normally, so that can be after 6.  Of course as my own two are older now they can either help themselves to food if hungry, or manage to wait that bit longer, but with young children they need to eat sooner and get to bed.

As I said in an earlier post, so much is to do with the change in lifestyles to a generation or two ago.  Years ago 'all' women did was household chores and preparing food.  Not fitting in an 8 hour working day too.  Something has to give.


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## lauraw1983 (Jan 8, 2013)

Tina63 said:


> Laura,
> 
> Sorry if I have caused offence, I never meant to. I suppose it was wrong of me to be so explicit about a specific lunchbox.
> 
> ...




Wow that OFSTED stuff sounds like a complete JOKE. Oooh even as a parent that'd have me hopping mad. It's the Care Commission in Scotland, not OFSTED and I don't think they have rules quite like that to follow! where is the flipping common sense these days!?

If I had ?1 for every time someone has said "oh they'll eat when they're hungry" or "they won't starve themselves" blah blah I'd be rich! My son is THE most stubborn child sometimes and he we have tried the going to bed with no dinner thing when he has refused it and it's meant he has woken in the night asking for a drink and drinks it so fast, and was sick! Horrible and I would not put him through or us through it again. 

sometimes I wish so much I was a stay at home Mum able to dedicate more time to everything there, but then some days I am glad to escape to the office   As with so many families now, 2 parents need to work just to cover basic mortgage and bills and that's just the way things are! 

You didn't offend me at all, and I hope I didn't to you either, but I'll PM you back shortly too xx


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## Vicsetter (Jan 8, 2013)

MaryPlain said:


> I keep seeing this and I'm sure it must be true for some people, but try as I might, I find it extremely difficult to prepare anything from scratch in less than an hour.  I think I'm particularly picky about making sure that veggies are properly washed, I haven't got the knack of chopping quickly (and please don't anyone tell me to practise, I've had lots!) and even washing and chopping salad seems to be more time consuming than it appears on TV shows.
> 
> Perhaps being vegetarian has something to do with it as I can't just cook a piece of meat or fish.
> 
> ...


The point of cooking from scratch is that you are in control and know what is in the food you eat.  Processed food is just that processed, by someone else, adding in stuff that you don't need, but that is needed by the seller (like preservatives).  As an example, I really don't see why anyone would buy packets of yorkshire pudding mix, it only has 3 ingredients (eggs, milk and flour).  A stir fry takes only a 5-10 minutes to cook, doesn't have to have meat in it and if you practised your knife skills doesn't take long to prepare.  You can batch peel garlic and ginger and freeze or slice and freeze.  Soy sauce and some noodles a few veg (like sugar snap peas, beans etc) and you have a tasty meal inside 30 minutes.  I don't know about vegetarian ready meals, but most re-heated meals take at least 30 minutes to re-heat, but is suppose us meatarians have to make sure the meat is re-heated enough.


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## MaryPlain (Jan 8, 2013)

Vicsetter said:


> A stir fry takes only a 5-10 minutes to cook, doesn't have to have meat in it and if you practised your knife skills doesn't take long to prepare.  You can batch peel garlic and ginger and freeze or slice and freeze.  Soy sauce and some noodles a few veg (like sugar snap peas, beans etc) and you have a tasty meal inside 30 minutes.



Please don't tell me to practise! 

The meal you describe would not contain protein so I would need to prepare something else to go with it - and I still can't see how I could possibly do it in half an hour! The other thing about a ready meal that takes 30 minutes to cook is that you can be doing something else (eg getting changed, making a cuppa, checking emails, opening the post) while it's cooking. 

The idea of pre-peeling and chopping and freezing could work, but wouldn't that extend the cooking time?


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## Vicsetter (Jan 8, 2013)

MaryPlain said:


> Please don't tell me to practise!
> 
> The meal you describe would not contain protein so I would need to prepare something else to go with it - and I still can't see how I could possibly do it in half an hour! The other thing about a ready meal that takes 30 minutes to cook is that you can be doing something else (eg getting changed, making a cuppa, checking emails, opening the post) while it's cooking.
> 
> The idea of pre-peeling and chopping and freezing could work, but wouldn't that extend the cooking time?



soya beans, tofu, quorn all sorts of vege protein, just chuck it in, or cook some vege sausages. Personally wouldn't be seen dead eating any of it, maybe some peanuts.
I'm afraid it's a lot easier if you eat meat.  
But a stir fry only takes about 10 minutes cooking time, if you can't prepare the ingredients in 20 minutes I give up.  Tried risotto, takes 20 minutes.

A sample list of ingredients in Quorn cottage pie from Tesco:
Mashed Potato (52%) (Potato (With Preservative: Sodium Metabisulphite), Milk, Butter, Salt, Flavouring, White Pepper), Water, Quorn Mince (8%) (Mycoprotein*, Rehydrated Free Range Egg White, Roasted Barley Malt Extract), Onions, Peas (3%), Carrot (2%), Modified Maize Starch, Tomato Puree, Vegetable Bouillon (Salt, Yeast Extract, Flavourings (With Celery) Wheat Flour, Palm Oil, Onion Powder), Maize Starch, Salt, Sugar, Yeast Extract, Roasted Barley Malt Extract.
*7% of Product.
Contains Celery, Egg, Gluten, Milk, Suphite & Wheat.

mmmm tasty Sodium Metabisulphite.  Ooooh Yeast Extract, oh look Palm Oil, modified Maize Starch.  All the reasons I try and avoid ready meals.


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## MaryPlain (Jan 9, 2013)

Vicsetter said:


> But a stir fry only takes about 10 minutes cooking time, if you can't prepare the ingredients in 20 minutes I give up.  Tried risotto, takes 20 minutes.



I give up as well!  And I have over 30 years of trying!  



> A sample list of ingredients in Quorn cottage pie from Tesco:
> Mashed Potato (52%) (Potato (With Preservative: Sodium Metabisulphite), Milk, Butter, Salt, Flavouring, White Pepper), Water, Quorn Mince (8%) (Mycoprotein*, Rehydrated Free Range Egg White, Roasted Barley Malt Extract), Onions, Peas (3%), Carrot (2%), Modified Maize Starch, Tomato Puree, Vegetable Bouillon (Salt, Yeast Extract, Flavourings (With Celery) Wheat Flour, Palm Oil, Onion Powder), Maize Starch, Salt, Sugar, Yeast Extract, Roasted Barley Malt Extract.
> *7% of Product.
> Contains Celery, Egg, Gluten, Milk, Suphite & Wheat.
> ...



What harm do those ingredients do, do you think? Especially yeast extract - that's marmite - staple vegetarian ingredient!

I've just eaten a ready meal - Thai curry. It was delicious and took 5 minutes in the microwave. These are the ingredients:

Carrot, water, rice, vegetable oil, split peas, onion, water chestnut, edamame beans, spring greens, savoy cabbage, coconut cream, red thai curry paste*, red pepper, spinach, coconut, ginger, cornflour, demerara sugar, garlic, coriander, soy sauce, sea salt, vegetable oil, lemon grass, lemon juice, basil, cumin powder, lime leaves, mint, turmeric powder, black pepper.

*vegetable oil, red chilli, salt, ginger, garlic, galangal, sugar, lemongrass, shallot, spices, kaffir lime peel.

It means I was sitting down to eat my dinner at 7.00 instead of at 8.00. That's one reason I like (some) ready meals!


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## Vicsetter (Jan 9, 2013)

If you had the time to make your own vegetable stock (boullion) would you put marmite in it? I'm just too mean to pay for that kind of meal, I would rather spend the time making it myself where I can control what goes into it.  There are some that are wary of the MSG content of yeast extract as well.

I also live too far away from a decent supermarket to shop regularly enough, and my freezer is too full of home made curries, pasta dishes and at the moment turkey and ham pies.
P.S. wheres the protein?

Found this for you: not much knife skills needed and takes less than 20 minutes:http://www.finecooking.com/recipes/thai-red-curry-tofu-vegetables.aspx#reviews
It's american, hence the Kosher salt, Maldon salt will do nicely.


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## MaryPlain (Jan 10, 2013)

Vicsetter said:


> If you had the time to make your own vegetable stock (boullion) would you put marmite in it?



Yes, why not?



> I'm just too mean to pay for that kind of meal, I would rather spend the time making it myself where I can control what goes into it.  There are some that are wary of the MSG content of yeast extract as well.



MSG? It's certainly not listed on the ingredients of Marmite - is it harmful in some way?

I'm more mean about my time than I am about cash - I am fortunate, I know, that I don't have to worry too much about the price of food. I appreciate that for some that is an issue.



> P.S. wheres the protein?



Was that to me? Do you mean in my Thai curry? Well edamames are soya beans, so packed with protein, and there is a combination of other secondary vegetable proteins (eg rice and split peas) in the curry which make it pretty balanced.



> Found this for you: not much knife skills needed and takes less than 20 minutes:http://www.finecooking.com/recipes/thai-red-curry-tofu-vegetables.aspx#reviews
> It's american, hence the Kosher salt, Maldon salt will do nicely.



Thank you, that's very kind of you! I would substitute quorn for the tofu though. But neither quorn nor tofu are exactly raw materials - both have been processed - so where do we draw the line when we describe something as "cooking from scratch"?

I've just cooked dinner, which would probably count as a ready meal for some but for me is cooking! The pre-prepared bit was quorn escalopes out of the freezer which take 18 minutes in the oven. However I also cooked fresh veg with them and sauteed some mushrooms and garlic. It needed sauce so I opened a tin of creamed mushrooms. 

Before putting the escalopes in the oven I prepped the veg.  The entire meal took about 50 minutes from start to finish, and that was making use of a fair bit of ready-made materials.  The kitchen is now an absolute bombsite due to using three saucepans, chopping board etc, but thankfully I cooked so it's not my job to sort out!

I think the key to this debate is the value we put on our time as well as whether we actually enjoy cooking. I don't. I resent every minute!


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## Northerner (Jan 10, 2013)

MaryPlain said:


> ...Before putting the escalopes in the oven I prepped the veg.  The entire meal took about 50 minutes from start to finish, and that was making use of a fair bit of ready-made materials.  The kitchen is now an absolute bombsite due to using three saucepans, chopping board etc, but thankfully I cooked so it's not my job to sort out!
> 
> I think the key to this debate is the value we put on our time as well as whether we actually enjoy cooking. I don't. I resent every minute!



Cooking is a strange activity I have found. Some things that I am very familiar with making I can make in a jiffy, but some things I have tried have, as you say above, proved rather an ordeal. I used to go to a friend's house on Bonfire night and for my contribution I would take along some homemade samosas. Whilst being fairly straightforward in terms of ingredients they would still take me a good hour or so to prepare, cook and contsruct and there would be mess everywhere however organised I tried to be!


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