# EU referendum: MP Sarah Wollaston swaps sides over 'untrue' Leave claims



## Northerner (Jun 9, 2016)

Tory MP Sarah Wollaston has quit the campaign to leave the EU and will vote for Remain instead, she told the BBC.

Dr Wollaston, chairman of the health select committee, said Vote Leave's claim that Brexit would free up £350m a week for the NHS "simply isn't true".

She told the BBC she did not feel comfortable being part of the campaign.

Leave campaigners defend the £350m figure, saying it is the UK's gross contribution and any money received back is at EU officials' discretion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36485464

At last, someone being honest about this! Nonsense from the start to suggest that any money 'saved' would be spent on public services like the NHS  The fact that the Leave campaign is almost exclusively driven by right-wing Tories and UKIP can only mean that any 'savings' will go to line the pockets of shareholders  I was quite undecided when this whole campaign started, but thankfully the Leave campaign have made it easy for me to vote against them. Initially, I was being repulsed by Cameron and Osborne's doom and gloom hyperbole, but now realise that there is no coherent argument for leaving.


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## Sally71 (Jun 9, 2016)

The only posters I've seen round here are Vote Leave ones!

We do postal voting, and received our ballot papers over a week ago, so I've already done mine.  I knew which way I wanted to vote as soon as the referendum was announced, I haven't watched any of the campaigns!


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## Northerner (Jun 9, 2016)

Sally71 said:


> The only posters I've seen round here are Vote Leave ones!
> 
> We do postal voting, and received our ballot papers over a week ago, so I've already done mine.  I knew which way I wanted to vote as soon as the referendum was announced, I haven't watched any of the campaigns!


Wise decision! I have been utterly appalled by the way the debate has been conducted on both sides. Seeing ordinary members of the public saying how they will vote, having been convinced by one spurious argument or another really dismays me  This is a hugely important decision yet the campaigns have been conducted as though it were something more akin to a by-election, full of rhetoric and devoid of facts, and appealing to the worst side of many people's natures  I actually think that, rather than denying the vote to 16-18s they should have given them the vote and denied it to the over '70s. I know many older people will vote according to what they see as the best interests of the younger generations, but many will not and are being persuaded by some mythical past when the world was a very different place, yet it is the younger generations who will have to live with the consequences the longest. Cameron should never have called the referendum


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## Sally71 (Jun 9, 2016)

That's what scares me, the fact that people will vote leave just because they think it will magically cure the immigration problem, or because we'll be able to have old fashioned light bulbs again if we want etc.  That's just one tiny issue, what about everything else?!  How it will affect world trade, relations with other countries, jobs etc, surely these things are more important? I was having a discussion with someone about the Eurovision Song Contest, about how silly we think it is and I said I haven't watched it for years as it's too political and isn't really anything to do with the songs.  And they said "and THAT'S why we should come out of the EU!"
Eh?? You're basing a massively important decision on a stupid song contest that you don't even have to watch??


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## trophywench (Jun 9, 2016)

Thing that worries me overall though, is that every politician in every country of the world seems to be equally as crap as ours.

29 countries are unanimously (it has to be unanimous!) in favour of investing billions of pounds (or Euros LOL) annually in something that does not have a set of rules in  place so that ordinary citizens can read them and see what they are, and has never in it's existence published a set of accounts or had a sodding Auditor.

I principle Yes - I am still in favour of PART of it actually - I do think it's (possibly?) good for trade 'now' because so many of our businesses have already gone so far along the EU route cos it's easier than exporting to Timbuktu.

But - proper controls of it are not in force and it seems to keep reinventing itself and adding new parts of itself 'by stealth' - to further confound those of us who like to be able to see a 'family tree' or 'flowchart' type picture of any company, business or organisation we choose to deal with or belong to.

Personally I also think that were this eg a pension scheme I'd been potty enough to invest in way back when, then NOW is the only opportunity I have ever had to try and cut my losses and run.

I also seem to recall something ages ago in history called the 'South Sea Bubble' .......


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## Diabeticliberty (Jun 9, 2016)

I don't know what any of your personal political persuasions are and quite frankly that is your own business but for Boris Johnson, IBS and that little twit Michael Gove to suggest spending money on the NHS when one wanted to introduce an insurance scheme, one wants to privatise and one wants us to pay by other means  would quite frankly insult the intelligence of the contents of my cat litter tray. Therein lies the problem. There have been suggestions now of mounting a legal challenge against the extension of the registration deadline because it is 'undemocratic'. If I understand this correctly allowing more people time to register to vote on what I believe is one of the single most important decisions facing us outside of war is undemocratic? Democracy is about voting for what you believe in.  The political classes cannot understand why people switch off altogether.  I have strong political interest and some fairly strong political views and to be honest such nonsense rubs the risk of me and people like me switching off too.


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## grovesy (Jun 9, 2016)

I never believed the money would be spent on NHS! That maybe because I am an ex NHS employee of 40 years , and would not trust any with it!


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## Northerner (Jun 9, 2016)

trophywench said:


> Thing that worries me overall though, is that every politician in every country of the world seems to be equally as crap as ours.
> 
> 29 countries are unanimously (it has to be unanimous!) in favour of investing billions of pounds (or Euros LOL) annually in something that does not have a set of rules in  place so that ordinary citizens can read them and see what they are, and has never in it's existence published a set of accounts or had a sodding Auditor.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, I don't think there are any truly democratic structures anywhere in the world. Let's not forget that in our own country the 'majority' government did not get a majority of the votes, and in the current case were elected thanks to the support of a handful of obscenely rich individuals and their bottomless pockets (thanks to their secretive tax-haven business practices!).

The EU is far from perfect, but preferable to the Tory right and UKIP. Not forgetting either that, had this been a vote by our elected parliament, it would be overwhelmingly in favour of remain. I thought this piece by David Mitchell was very good:

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rliament-leaders-david-cameron-david-mitchell


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## HOBIE (Jun 9, 2016)

Can anybody remember "British Kite Mark"   Everything that was made in uk had one !   I don't want something made in the check rep or others.   Made in uk was all over the world at one time


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## Northerner (Jun 10, 2016)

HOBIE said:


> Can anybody remember "British Kite Mark"   Everything that was made in uk had one !   I don't want something made in the check rep or others.   Made in uk was all over the world at one time


You might not have any choice these days Hobie:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21024336


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## Maz2 (Jun 10, 2016)

Never was convinced by the "money would be spent on the NHS" argument.  Yes, the leavers are mostly UKIP and right wing Conservatives who want to get rid of the NHS anyway and will only give the money to richer people.  I saw a programme which I recorded a few weeks ago with Robert Peston as presenter and he was talking about Switzerland who are a member of the European Free Trade Area which we will have to join if we leave.  They have no control over their borders as they have to agree with free movement to join the EFTA.  They also have no say in the running of the EU.  I don't care for the EU personally but it does concern me that the "leavers" are all saying what will happen when we leave when, in truth, no one actually knows as no country has done it. I would prefer to stay in personally as at least we know what the future holds.


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## jusme (Jun 10, 2016)

Nobody knows what the future holds whether you vote remain or leave we will all just have to accept what ever the majority of the UK has taken the time and the trouble to go and vote for.

jusme


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## trophywench (Jun 10, 2016)

"Damned if we do and damned if we don't" is a phrase that springs to mind !

If, in past times 'fishes flew, forests walked, figs grew upon thorn and the moon was blood' - how do we know the same couldn't happen again!?


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## Martin Canty (Jun 10, 2016)

You guys are in a quandary, I can see the arguments for & against, to be honest I am on the fence as I can't see any clear answer either way.... However I have lost the right to vote so don't actually have a say, just an opinion!


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## Austin Mini (Jun 10, 2016)

Martin Canty said:


> You guys are in a quandary, I can see the arguments for & against, to be honest I am on the fence as I can't see any clear answer either way.... However I have lost the right to vote so don't actually have a say, just an opinion!



How did you lose your right to vote then Martin?


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## Austin Mini (Jun 10, 2016)

If we vote to leave then all the other countries will also want out and it will revert to a trade block like its supposed to be.


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## Martin Canty (Jun 10, 2016)

Austin Mini said:


> How did you lose your right to vote then Martin?


I have lived outside of the UK for 20 years..... An ExPat living in southern California


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## Andy HB (Jun 10, 2016)

What gets me about this woman is that she couldn't have had any reason to be in the Brexit camp in the first place. Of course all this twaddle is output by both sides and is utter drivel mostly. She won't get any better in the Remain camp.

For me, it boils down  to one thing. It is whether or not we want to be able to have a say in our own affairs. If we vote out, we will still have to accommodate the EU in some form or other. But at least it'll be on our terms and not because we don't have any option. It would also open up the entire world to us (assuming we have the nouse to do anything with it!).

The only thing staying my vote and which may decide me to vote In when I am in the voting booth is that I don't see any politicians vaguely capable of running an independent UK!!! They are all spineless, clueless, self-aggrandising wanabees (steady on Andrew!!). There is also the issue of the inevitable period when the economy re-adjusts which will probably hit the worse off in the country (if the current government incumbents are anything to go by). 

Andy


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## Northerner (Jun 10, 2016)

I think the Remain campaign have totally failed to counter the immigration question by explaining just how little impact it actually has - yes it has an effect, but nowhere near what is being suggested. The 'scare' figure of 500m people being able to come here is as nonsensical as the £350m a week figure - only a tiny fraction choose to come here and an equivalent go to live in other EU countries. In fact, since we have a lot more retirees living abroad they contribute very little in terms of taxes to their new countries, whereas we get something like £2bn here - chiefly because they are young, skilled people who come here to work, not to retire. They usually go home again after a few years, whereas immigrants from outside the EU tend to come here to live permanently. If there is extra pressure on services here it's chiefly due to the government taking their money, but not spending any of it on expanding services to meet demand. Yet people are being persuaded that somehow we are being overrun and that leaving the EU will solve all our problems. The other main Leave argument is that we can't sneeze without the EU controlling when and how often, which is nonsense - is it seriously being suggested that ALL EU legislation is stuff that somehow stifles us and that we would choose to act otherwise? And is it also being suggested that, as a major partner in the EU we never have any input into anything? 

Since there have been no coherent arguments from either side, and leaving would leave us much worse off (under Boris, Farage and Gove) I can't see any reason to change things. These people have had 30 years to develop their arguments and evidence and yet have provided nothing. If we stay and the EU do go completely bonkers, we have an automatic referendum anyway - now is not the time. In any event, Cameron is totally discredited.


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## jusme (Jun 11, 2016)

Austin Mini there are other EU countries waiting to see what happens if we leave because they want out as well.

Northerner I think you are frightening off those who want to vote to leave the EU from giving their opinion.

jusme


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## Diabeticliberty (Jun 11, 2016)

jusme said:


> Austin Mini there are other EU countries waiting to see what happens if we leave because they want out as well.
> 
> Northerner I think you are frightening off those who want to vote to leave the EU from giving their opinion.
> 
> jusme




Northerner is not frightening me off from giving my opinion. you are prefect at liberty to offer your own opinion as in my experience this forum is completely open and you are free to express your own opinion on this or indeed any other subject . Northerner may have an opinion that is different to your own and different or the same as mine.  He is however perfectly entitled to express his opinion just like the rest of us. Whether I agree with his opinion or am directly at odds with it  I do not feel that he is making unreasonable suggestions because he is pretty much on the money with the statement that there are a lack of coherent arguments from either side. Perhaps that is why the vast majority of non xenophobic and non EU apologists which accounts for the vast majority of the population in the middle who it seems are unable to make a decision either way because of the smoke and mirrors from both sides of the referendum. In 2016 and in my own opinion a truly sorry state of affairs


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## HOBIE (Jun 13, 2016)

Sally71 said:


> The only posters I've seen round here are Vote Leave ones!
> 
> We do postal voting, and received our ballot papers over a week ago, so I've already done mine.  I knew which way I wanted to vote as soon as the referendum was announced, I haven't watched any of the campaigns!


I done exactly the same Sally "did done gone in post"


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## Northerner (Jun 14, 2016)

jusme said:


> Austin Mini there are other EU countries waiting to see what happens if we leave because they want out as well.
> 
> Northerner I think you are frightening off those who want to vote to leave the EU from giving their opinion.
> 
> jusme


I'm sorry if it comes across this way @jusme  I am really just so shocked that the 'debate' is so shockingly poor on both sides for something that is extremely important  - too many 'personalities' and not enough sober and sensible discussion. The media have not helped at all because they have just joined in as though it's some sort of game  

I would love someone to convince me either way - at the moment I am considering voting for the opposite to the side that has least convinced me!


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## Austin Mini (Jun 14, 2016)

Jokers to the left of me, clowns to the right, Im stuck in the middle with EU!


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## Ljc (Jun 14, 2016)

TBPH I'm heartily sick of the cr..p from both sides.  
I made my decision quite a while ago and posted my vote off the day it arrived.


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## TheClockworkDodo (Jun 14, 2016)

Northerner - and anyone else who is still undecided - you might like to try doing this questionnaire - it asks you what you think about a variety of issues, and then tells you which side you most agree with, and the percentage you agree with them:  https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/eu-quiz  It is not biased one way or the other - it has been put together by people from opposing sides who agree that the vote should be about issues not personalities.

I started with a slight leaning towards the leave (due to issues with EU rulings on vitamins and heritage seeds), was turned slightly towards the remain by a realisation that nearly all the funding for R's job comes from the EU (he says he can't imagine any academic voting leave, because almost all university funding comes from the EU) and that the EU is responsible for the minimum wage, was inclined to vote leave anyway after seeing the awful dreary hectoring nanny-state leaflet being put out by Cameron's lot (I thought they really shot themselves in the foot with that), and then saw the dreadful inaccurate scaremongering lunatic leaflet being put out by Farage's lot (I was shocked to see "we could dump the Human Rights Act" being put forward as a good thing?!  ), so now I am leaning towards remain again, helped by an email from the RSPB who have asked both sides lots of questions about the environment, analysed their answers, and concluded that it would be slightly better for wildlife if we remain.  But I wouldn't trust either lot of politicians on any issue as far as I could kick them, frankly.

A little light relief:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07g8t71/jack-dees-helpdesk-referendum-2016-episode-1 (asking the _really_ serious questions, such as "will gelato still be available if we leave the EU?), and http://www.channel4.com/programmes/power-monkeys


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## Northerner (Jun 14, 2016)

TheClockworkDodo said:


> But I wouldn't trust either lot of politicians on any issue as far as I could kick them, frankly.


Ooh! Can we? Can we please have a go and see how far we can kick them?   Will try the survey, thanks


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## Ljc (Jun 14, 2016)

Northerner said:


> Ooh! Can we? Can we please have a go and see how far we can kick them?   Will try the survey, thanks


I'd love to join in.


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## trophywench (Jun 14, 2016)

I did the 38 degrees one, since I have to say - they do always try to present fair cases for whatever they do.

The result? - that I'm apparently still 86% convinced we should do, exactly what I'd already decided we ought to! - ie, I'm out.

I'm surprised that wasn't 96%, after hearing what David Cameron's Pensions Adviser was saying yesterday - if my Final salary pensions get wrecked by pending EU legislation - I'm stuffed !  And I'm not exactly alone, am I?  Britain - even without any contribution to the EU - cannot afford to keep the grey army without the pension payments so many of them are drawing, can it?

I hear what you say about your husband, however how was his job (not necessarily he himself - his predecessor(s) ) financed prior to the EU ?  Were there no academics prior to that?


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## Northerner (Jun 14, 2016)

I'm 74% In...


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## TheClockworkDodo (Jun 14, 2016)

I don't think the questionnaire will change the opinions of people who know what they think already, it's aimed at people who don't know!  I was surprised to be 68% in because I'd expected to be much nearer 50%.

I've also just found this video by 38Degrees - don't know if it's any good as I don't have sound on my computer, but thought I'd post it in case anyone is still trying to decide ...

https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/936


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## Austin Mini (Jun 14, 2016)

I am 88% out. Well I thought I was in?


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## jusme (Jun 15, 2016)

I am 92% OUT and surprised I wasn't a 100% but I had to be neutral about some things.

jusme


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## HOBIE (Jun 15, 2016)

I worked for a solicitor years ago. His job was in Brussels's, His job was reading translations of rules - law etc. He told me the other nations put lots of effort into taking there time etc for there benefit .  I am 99.9 % out but is it too late ?    "British Standards"  & kite mark gone !


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## Northerner (Jun 15, 2016)

HOBIE said:


> I worked for a solicitor years ago. His job was in Brussels's, His job was reading translations of rules - law etc. He told me the other nations put lots of effort into taking there time etc for there benefit .  I am 99.9 % out but is it too late ?    "British Standards"  & kite mark gone !


Actually, British standards are what have brought the rest of Europe UP to where we are, and why we can trade with confidence with other EU nations who have to meet the same standards. One of the principal elements of trade outside the EU would more than likely be a lowering of standards e.g. to US or Chinese levels as that is often the sticking point in trade deals.


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## trophywench (Jun 15, 2016)

Well Alan - you have hit the vast bulk of the head of the ruddy nail, right there!

The UK were on the verge of bringing little things like equal pay and non-discrimination blah blah into English Law well before the EU did - except we wouldn't have brought in the non-extradition bits if left to our own devices LOL

Nowhere, in any of the legislation of this kind, is there a clause which says 'but this only applies whilst we are still in the EU' - if it's Law here now, it will be Law here the day after Brexit - and to REMOVE a Law would take just as much time and effort as inventing any new one does!


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## Diabeticliberty (Jun 15, 2016)

My decision on the whole issue was made some months ago and has not been influenced by the inane ramblings of the leave or stay camp. I will not advertise my decision as whenever anybody does it just seems to attract negative reaction from members of the camp opposed to my own thinking. I would add however that none of the remain or leave camp seem to have discussed in much depth the potential our decision has to destabilise the rest of Europe and I do personally believe that our decision has potential to ignite this and therefore trigger a long term recession in Europe. I did hear some leave campaigners some time ago suggest that a destabilised Europe would be a very good thing and that a Europe fragmented triggered by our own decision to leave would be most welcome. This comment and comments like it appeared to be quickly muted for reasons I can only make assumptions at.


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## HOBIE (Jun 15, 2016)

We as a Nation have never been put in this ?   I like being on an island !


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## Annette (Jun 15, 2016)

HOBIE said:


> I like being on an island !


I believe St Kilda's free...


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## DeusXM (Jun 15, 2016)

What has helped me consolidate my position is the potent school of thought making its way through a proportion of the 'Leave' vote.

There seem to be several Leave voters who have an issue with immigration that goes well beyond concern about the impact of larger numbers of people would have on our economy/society etc. and this delusional belief that leaving the EU will somehow magically make everything better and all the foreigners will be gone.

I personally just can't throw in my lot to vote for a position backed by people convinced that we're going to be overrun and Islamicised or whatever. Those people are of course entitled to their view but when it's them and Donald Trump backing Brexit, to me, Remain seems the only sensible option.

What amuses me most is that this unpleasant small fraction of the overall Leave vote have also made a lot of noise about doing more business with the Commonwealth. They seem to have forgotten that this would by definition require a relaxing of visa requirements for Commonwealth citizens, and that the biggest Commonwealth nations which will be doing the most business will be India, Pakistan, Nigeria and Malaysia. Those voters might be in for a nasty shock when they realise a Brexit would necessitate an increase in immigration from those countries as I bet that's the last thing they want.


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## Northerner (Jun 15, 2016)

DeusXM said:


> What amuses me most is that this unpleasant small fraction of the overall Leave vote have also made a lot of noise about doing more business with the Commonwealth. They seem to have forgotten that this would by definition require a relaxing of visa requirements for Commonwealth citizens, and that the biggest Commonwealth nations which will be doing the most business will be India, Pakistan, Nigeria and Malaysia. Those voters might be in for a nasty shock when they realise a Brexit would necessitate an increase in immigration from those countries as I bet that's the last thing they want.


Did you see the Andrew Neill interview with Nigel Farage? Farage was completely floundering when Neill pointed out this very fact. I'm afraid I have no time for someone who gets elected as an MEP, happily takes the money and claims expenses to the limit, but does nothing to actually help fight Britain's corner in Europe, just spends his time insulting members of other countries  If we do leave I suppose at least we will learn the answers to all the questions we want answering now. 

If we vote to stay then there is the possibility of another vote in the future if things change drastically in the EU - indeed, I believe this is built into the terms of our membership, but if we vote to leave then we have no chance of re-joining.


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## zuludog (Jun 15, 2016)

When you hear that something is funded by EU money, surely you realise that it is not some kind of gift out of the kindness of their hearts?
It is simply some of the money we have paid in being returned to us


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## Diabeticliberty (Jun 15, 2016)

zuludog said:


> When you hear that something is funded by EU money, surely you realise that it is not some kind of gift out of the kindness of their hearts?
> It is simply some of the money we have paid in being returned to us




I suppose that is the nature of taxation. To look at it from a slightly different perspective as a type 1 diabetic I pay a big chunk of my salary into national government as do the lads who work for me and then when I get diagnosed the NHS looks after all of my medical needs for the rest of my life. The alternatives which were championed by the 3 most vocal members of the out lobby is to pay for my care by private insurance or by other private means ala Messrs Johnson,  Gove and old IBS himself.  They then changed their minds and said that the gold pig that we currently send  over to Brussels every week can now be melted down and spent on the health service which none of them have ever supported before. They then told the farmers that they could have the gold pig and today they have told the universities whom receive European funding that they can have the gold pig too. Poor old Porky must be getting a bit anxious about where he is going to end up. One pig can only make so many bacon butties. One big £350 billion lie can only be perpetuated so many ways before even dumb old me can see through it. 


Oh and for the record if you come along tomorrow and offer a reason that the YES CAMP have manufactured to stay in  Europe I am fairly sure that I can have a go at debunking that one tomorrow night.  My cynicism on this in out shake it all about subject is now starting to boil over.  


I still,will not reveal my real voting intention as it is nobody else affair.


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## Northerner (Jun 16, 2016)

zuludog said:


> When you hear that something is funded by EU money, surely you realise that it is not some kind of gift out of the kindness of their hearts?
> It is simply some of the money we have paid in being returned to us


My perspective on that is that many worthwhile things are receiving funding via this route that wouldn't get a whiff of it if our current government were making the decisions of how to spend it. Of course, if we vote to leave then we will find out where they really want to divert that money (and I'm pretty confident it won't be the NHS ) The Leave campaign have said that they will continue to pay the subsidies to farmers etc., so in theory there will be no saving.


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## KookyCat (Jun 16, 2016)

I can see the argument on both sides, there would be benefits to coming out and benefits to staying in, but I'm appalled at how the debate has been run, something akin to kiddies play time.  The simple answer is they have absolutely no idea what will happen if we come out because nobody has ever done it.  I will most likely vote to stay for two reasons, the first is I find the leave campaign's media unpalatable, the focus on immigration is nothing short of demonisation in my view, but that's just my view.  The more critical matter is this, the U.K. isn't what it was in the 70's, we can't wind back the clock, the world isn't the same as it was back then and as much as we might want to we can't go back in my opinion.  Perhaps more crucially I don't want to go back, I believe the future lies with a more stable trade base.  The U.K. has it pretty good as it goes, and it's not how Europe spends money that worries me, it's how we spend money, so the likelihood of me saying here you go Cameron have at it, you spend it all is slim to none.  The debate about the NHS is just a gentle introduction to the post referendum narrative, if we vote to stay I give it a month before the first politician uses that as a reason to dismantle the welfare state.

I have to say I'm offended on everyone's behalf that both campaigns have gone for the "emotional" arguments, because clearly they think us all incapable of making decisions with our heads rather than our petty prejudice.  Not giving me the warm and fuzzies about the UK that's for sure.


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