# Mass testing of blood for covid-19 antibodies



## Rinus (Apr 26, 2020)

I never asked for it but last year I was provided with a blood glucose monitoring system.  A project obviously aimed at many people with diabetes who didn't have one of these things yet.  I can imagine that there are now may-be about a million or so lancing devices, plus a multiple of sterile lancets, spread out over the country.  If and when simple diagnosing blood test strips become available I would be happy to receive 50-100 or so test strips accompanied by test results feed back forms and make these, together with my lancing device and lancets available to people in my street to check their blood for covid-19 antibodies.  I can imagine that most diabetes people in possession of lancing equipment would be quite happy to do the same.  I also can imagine that giving time slots to neighbours and friends to pick up equipment, do the test, return the equipment and me wiping it with disinfectant afterwards could easily result in having everyone interested tested within a week or so. That data could give the government a very quick insight into the progress of what is called 'herd immunity' and enable them to make better informed decisions about what to do next.  Of course it also, to some extent, would probably lessen the worry for every person testing positive for antibodies and allow them to go back to their old routines much quicker.  If my above comments indeed make sense, it would be nice to see a project along these lines being rolled out by Diabetes UK in liaison with the government.


----------



## Docb (Apr 26, 2020)

Nice idea Rinus with an enormous but.... don't think anybody has ever come up with a chemical that could successfully identify a particular virus or its antibodies let alone figure out how it could be incorporated into a test strip and then interrogated by a tiny handheld device (it would not be a blood glucose monitor) to get a reading.  

You are going to have to wait for Mr Spock and his tricorder I am afraid.


----------



## Rinus (Apr 26, 2020)

Docb said:


> Nice idea Rinus with an enormous but.... don't think anybody has ever come up with a chemical that could successfully identify a particular virus or its antibodies let alone figure out how it could be incorporated into a test strip and then interrogated by a tiny handheld device (it would not be a blood glucose monitor) to get a reading.
> 
> You are going to have to wait for Mr Spock and his tricorder I am afraid.


Thanks Docb.  
May be I should have explained myself better.  I am referring to self-diagnostic test strips which do not need further equipment to show a result.  Along the lines of litmus paper, or other type test strips that I use for my aquarium to establish the amount of various elements present in the water which are reported on the strip itself by means of colour changes.  I.e. only the blood drawing device of our blood glucose monitoring system would be required.
As  I understand it the scientists are not too far off developing such self-diagnostic strips for covid-19 antibody blood tests.
I hope this explains me better.


----------



## Docb (Apr 26, 2020)

Got you first time Rinus it's just that I'm a bit sceptical of the idea that there is any chance of a simple chemical test that will reliably pick up the presence of a specific antibody in the blood. It's a very different problem to that of measuring acidity, or mineral content, glucose in the blood or ketones in pee.

Don't invest your life savings in somebody promising to make you rich by developing one!


----------



## Eddy Edson (Apr 26, 2020)

I don't think anything that simple is on the cards, unfortunately. The serology tests people are racing to improve require live virus and a bio-secure analysis facility, I think.


----------



## Rinus (Apr 26, 2020)

Docb said:


> Got you first time Rinus it's just that I'm a bit sceptical of the idea that there is any chance of a simple chemical test that will reliably pick up the presence of a specific antibody in the blood. It's a very different problem to that of measuring acidity, or mineral content, glucose in the blood or ketones in pee.
> 
> Don't invest your life savings in somebody promising to make you rich by developing one!


Thanks Docb.  
I am definitely no expert in science or chemistry, so I won't invest my life savings in any developer and will take you word for it in anything relating to that area.  My field is logistics and making things available where and when needed.  In other words my proposal comes down to the following:  If a simple home test for antibodies in the blood should become available that relies on drawing a few drops of blood, then there is amongst diabetics around the country a lot of kit available to that could be deployed to support testing on a big scale.


----------



## everydayupsanddowns (Apr 26, 2020)

It’s a generous thought @Rinus - but I believe there would be an immediate concern over shared lancing devices (even if the lancet was changed each time). I am under the impression that lancing devices are only for use by a single person to avoid cross-contamination.

This from the US CDC




__





						Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) regarding Assisted Blood Glucose Monitoring and Insulin Administration   | Injection Safety | CDC
					

Best practices for use of blood glucose monitoring equipment. including questions related to cleaning, disinfection, and storage of blood glucose monitoring equipment.




					www.cdc.gov
				





Fingerstick devices, also called lancing devices, should never be shared, even with close family and friends. This guidance includes both the lancet (i.e., the sharp instrument that actually punctures the skin) and the pen-like device that houses the lancet. Neither should be used for more than one person.


----------



## Rinus (Apr 26, 2020)

Eddy Edson said:


> I don't think anything that simple is on the cards, unfortunately. The serology tests people are racing to improve require live virus and a bio-secure analysis facility, I think.


Thanks for your input Eddy.
As I indicated in my earlier reply to Docb, I'm by no means a scientist.
But what you say, does that indeed mean that antibodies in the blood of corona recovered people (of whom I thought to have no live virus in their system anymore, but please correct me if I'm wrong) can only be identified by bringing these antibodies in contact with live virus?


----------



## trophywench (Apr 26, 2020)

He said 'I think' - in other words he doesn't know for a fact.  

However, nobody so far has been able to produce anything which can reliably measure what they all hope to, during the trials of the product on people that have been undertaken thus far.  So they have to continue to try to find something that really does work.

Nobody as yet can predict how long it might take.  Personally I hope it doesn't take as long as finding the cure for diabetes …….


----------



## Rinus (Apr 27, 2020)

trophywench said:


> He said 'I think' - in other words he doesn't know for a fact.
> 
> However, nobody so far has been able to produce anything which can reliably measure what they all hope to, during the trials of the product on people that have been undertaken thus far.  So they have to continue to try to find something that really does work.
> 
> Nobody as yet can predict how long it might take.  Personally I hope it doesn't take as long as finding the cure for diabetes …….


Point taken trophywrench.  
And yes, let's all hope that some important breakthroughs will be made sooner rather than later.


----------



## Rinus (Apr 27, 2020)

everydayupsanddowns said:


> It’s a generous thought @Rinus - but I believe there would be an immediate concern over shared lancing devices (even if the lancet was changed each time). I am under the impression that lancing devices are only for use by a single person to avoid cross-contamination.
> 
> This from the US CDC
> 
> ...


Thanks everydayupsanddowns
To address your concerns about sharing lancing devices:
Yes, when I posted this, I was aware that there would probably arrive one or more replies referring to 'health and safety' issues.  
From what I gather from your profile it seems you are administrator and Diabetes UK staff member, but correct me if I've come to the wrong conclusion here.   
Apart from that, or because of that, I am slightly puzzled as to why contents of a seemingly pre-covid-19 crisis webpage from the USA should be used as back-up to more or less dismiss a practical proposal about things happening now or hopefully in the near future.   
From my surrounding community it is evident that a massive majority of people, especially after some sort of lock-down for a few months, are perfectly capable of practising safe procedures with regard to contact with others and dealing with goods that change hands between them.
No offence meant at all, but while the majority of people have accepted that the "holy" rules of freedom of movement needed and could to be broken, there should also not be any qualms about postponing advisory rules where deemed practical.


----------



## everydayupsanddowns (Apr 27, 2020)

I think if a fingerstick-test-strip style Covid 19 test is ever developed, I suspect the sterile lancets themselves would be better to hand out. No need for a lancing device. Just stab them into the finger manually like we had to do in the 1990s


----------



## Eddy Edson (Apr 27, 2020)

Rinus said:


> Thanks for your input Eddy.
> As I indicated in my earlier reply to Docb, I'm by no means a scientist.
> But what you say, does that indeed mean that antibodies in the blood of corona recovered people (of whom I thought to have no live virus in their system anymore, but please correct me if I'm wrong) can only be identified by bringing these antibodies in contact with live virus?



That was the impression I get from non-expertly reading a couple of the studies, but could be wrong.


----------



## Rinus (Apr 28, 2020)

everydayupsanddowns said:


> I think if a fingerstick-test-strip style Covid 19 test is ever developed, I suspect the sterile lancets themselves would be better to hand out. No need for a lancing device. Just stab them into the finger manually like we had to do in the 1990s


Thanks for that everydayupsanddowns
I'd assume that if enough test-strips can be made available, it would be peanuts to match that with enough lancets.  So I fully agree that you've hit the nail on the head here.  So I'm very happy to have gotten my initial thought out of my system and will consider the issue closed.
Thanks everyone else for your input.  You've convinced me that I should not hesitate to use the forum for a second time in case I need an answer to some other diabetes related issue.


----------



## rebrascora (Apr 28, 2020)

It is great that you are not discouraged by the less than positive response to your idea. I think it is important to be able to throw ideas out there because even if they are a non starter, it can sometimes prompt a light bulb moment in someone else.
The great thing about this forum is that we have a huge range of experience both in the field of diabetes and many other varied subjects, so there are knowledgeable people to discuss many topics with. 
I do wonder if some sort of Corona Virus forum might have been a good idea to propose and thrash out ideas and offers etc and get the best consensus of how to move forward. I know there are many top level scientists advising the government but sometimes academics are not the most practical people.


----------



## mikeyB (Apr 29, 2020)

There may be top level scientists advising the government, but that doesn’t mean they take the  advice. We don’t know who these scientists are anyway. Top scientists are usually too busy being top scientists.


----------



## Rinus (Apr 29, 2020)

rebrascora said:


> It is great that you are not discouraged by the less than positive response to your idea. I think it is important to be able to throw ideas out there because even if they are a non starter, it can sometimes prompt a light bulb moment in someone else.
> The great thing about this forum is that we have a huge range of experience both in the field of diabetes and many other varied subjects, so there are knowledgeable people to discuss many topics with.
> I do wonder if some sort of Corona Virus forum might have been a good idea to propose and thrash out ideas and offers etc and get the best consensus of how to move forward. I know there are many top level scientists advising the government but sometimes academics are not the most practical people.


Thanks for that rebrascora.  Much appreciated.  
Your comments made me look at your profile and therefore other forum items you are involved in.  And I was pleased to see stuff there where some good-spirited banter also has a place.  You have indeed encouraged me to not shy away.


----------



## rebrascora (Apr 29, 2020)

I look forward to reading many more posts from you @Rinus 
Discussing things on forums like this is a fantastic way of learning and opening yourself up to new ideas. I think they are one of the wonders of the internet, where experiences and ideas can be shared for the benefit of all.


----------



## mikeyB (Apr 29, 2020)

This is not the forum for discussing tinpot ideas. Especially from the scientifically ignorant.


----------



## Docb (Apr 30, 2020)

mikeyB said:


> This is not the forum for discussing tinpot ideas. Especially from the scientifically ignorant.



Not sure about that MikeyB.  Lots of sensible and knowledgable people on here and we all have our blank spots.  There is a well established technique in innovation development where proposals of "tin pot" ideas are positively encouraged as the starting point for innovation.  Can be a lot more sucessful than starting from the status quo.

Anyway, this section is labelled "Off The Subject".


----------



## rebrascora (Apr 30, 2020)

@mikeyB I really feel that your comment has crossed a line. Not enough to report it but definitely for me to feel uncomfortable about it and therefore I need to say so. As a community we should be (and usually we are) open minded and friendly. Your post comes across as far less than that and does not do you justice as a valued and knowledgeable member of this forum.


----------



## mikeyB (Apr 30, 2020)

Indeed, it was intended to provoke exactly that reaction. Nevertheless, there is no value in discussing ideas which are not possible, or founded in reality. We know which tests for antibodies work, and work well; not using them en masse is a political decision, not a problem with the tests.


----------



## rebrascora (Apr 30, 2020)

@mikeyB I am pleased that I did not disappoint in making a predictable response. Now stop being such a grump!


----------



## Eddy Edson (Apr 30, 2020)

rebrascora said:


> @mikeyB I am pleased that I did not disappoint in making a predictable response. Now stop being such a grump!



He's allowed to be a grump, as he has spent a lot of time in Scotland and is really quite old.


----------



## trophywench (Apr 30, 2020)

Eddy Edson said:


> He's allowed to be a grump, as he has spent a lot of time in Scotland and is really quite old.



As @mikeyB I sincerely hope knows that I respect him 100% I am going to firmly state that your post just made me burst out laughing!


----------

