# LCHF - Benefits and Drawbacks



## WillyWonka (Feb 28, 2019)

Hi all. I am new to the forum and have been adopting a lower carb, higher fat approach to my Prediabetes condition. 

Do we know of drawbacks associated with low carbing or ultra low carbing?


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## MikeTurin (Feb 28, 2019)

I think that the first thing is to define low carbing and ultra low carbing, ie what percentage of the calorie intake is from carbohydrates.
There are people way more expert than me on the subject, that are following ketogenic diets and so on.
I have seen and interesting video about an experiment on blood type diet: they got a group of people to follow one of the four diets without associating them to the actual blood type. All the people following the diet got benefits independently from the actual blood type. https://academic.oup.com/jn/article-abstract/148/4/518/4965915

I follow a low carb diet, and track anyway the calorie intake. HBa1C 33 on last exams, so somewhat the food awareness is working. I eat fruits and sometimes rye bread ad whole wheat pasta but I check myself. 
LAtely I have had some problems in red cell blood count, and I can't donate blood until june.


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## WillyWonka (Feb 28, 2019)

I understand your point about definition. I personally see several tiers of carb management whereby any one tier might be suitable for some but not necessarily for others.

I actually wondered about the negative sides of reducing carbs to extreme levels whilst acknowledging the benefits.

I shall look at the article very soon.

Do you feel that low carbing has had an impact on your blood cell count?


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## Docb (Feb 28, 2019)

I'm in the medium /low carb category, target of 60-80 g carbohydrate a day.  Yes it has a profound affect on blood glucose which is obviously a very good thing and I think I am getting to the point where I can look at carbohydrate content of a meal and make a pretty good guess about what effect it will have on BG.  I think your other friend, the first being your meter, is the bathroom scales.  

If you are overweight and using the low carb approach to loose a pound or two as well as get the BG down then using the scales to show how you are doing is obviously sensible.  

If, like me, you are not overweight then the scales will tell you if your low carbing is in danger of sending you underweight because you are not keeping up the calorie intake by other means.  

If you are already underweight they will tell you if you are getting into the seriously underweight category which is a whole new kettle of fish and somewhere you do not want to be..


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## WillyWonka (Feb 28, 2019)

Docb said:


> I'm in the medium /low carb category, target of 60-80 g carbohydrate a day.  Yes it has a profound affect on blood glucose which is obviously a very good thing and I think I am getting to the point where I can look at carbohydrate content of a meal and make a pretty good guess about what effect it will have on BG.  I think your other friend, the first being your meter, is the bathroom scales.
> 
> If you are overweight and using the low carb approach to loose a pound or two as well as get the BG down then using the scales to show how you are doing is obviously sensible.
> 
> ...


Okay so you know from experience just by looking at a meal, what kind of an impact that meal will have on your blood glucose levels? This was something I was asking in another thread.


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## travellor (Feb 28, 2019)

WillyWonka said:


> Okay so you know from experience just by looking at a meal, what kind of an impact that meal will have on your blood glucose levels? This was something I was asking in another thread.



It's a personal thing, based on experience. 
Eventually you can have a rough idea, yes.
You need to test what your BG is before and after a meal, as different carbs have different effects.
Eventually you'll see some sort of pattern.


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## WillyWonka (Feb 28, 2019)

I came about things from a slightly different angle. I have not purchased or used a meter. I have just gone by the figures on the back of food packs and figures for natural products like fruit and vedge on the internet. 

It might be that I had leeway to do that being Prediabetic and not full Type 2. I also have observed changes in my body over the course of time.


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## MikeTurin (Feb 28, 2019)

WillyWonka said:


> Do you feel that low carbing has had an impact on your blood cell count?


I don't know, the doctor said to me to eat more liver, beef steak, yeast, spinaches, mackerels, anchovies and oranges, when I explained what normally I eat.


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## WillyWonka (Feb 28, 2019)

MikeTurin said:


> I don't know, the doctor said to me to eat more liver, beef steak, yeast, spinaches, mackerels, anchovies and oranges, when I explained what normally I eat.


I will be speaking to my doc next week after my latest HbA1c and will see what he advises.


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## Docb (Feb 28, 2019)

WillyWonka said:


> Okay so you know from experience just by looking at a meal, what kind of an impact that meal will have on your blood glucose levels? This was something I was asking in another thread.



Yes, it's a long way from an exact science, but good enough to help me to keep things in bounds.  For example, had a virtually zero carb lunch today - my own made vegetable bhaji with some ham and coleslaw - expecting post lunch reading to be low (for me).  And at 5.3 it was, so I treated myself to a biscuit (17g carbohydrate) with a cup of tea to make sure I do not drop below 5.0 before my tea which again will be very low carb.  I'm thinking that I will be in the low 5's a couple of hours after tea ( biscuit will have worn off and tea will be adding very little) so I will check to find out.  All jolly good fun, but seriously, if I can get a decent picture of what is going on and develop decent hypo and hyper awareness then I hope I can get this thing under control without having to think about it too much. 

Also when things have gone to cock then I have been able to trace it back to a meal where my carb estimate was probably in error.


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## WillyWonka (Feb 28, 2019)

Docb said:


> Yes, it's a long way from an exact science, but good enough to help me to keep things in bounds.  For example, had a virtually zero carb lunch today - my own made vegetable bhaji with some ham and coleslaw - expecting post lunch reading to be low (for me).  And at 5.3 it was, so I treated myself to a biscuit (17g carbohydrate) with a cup of tea to make sure I do not drop below 5.0 before my tea which again will be very low carb.  I'm thinking that I will be in the low 5's a couple of hours after tea ( biscuit will have worn off and tea will be adding very little) so I will check to find out.  All jolly good fun, but seriously, if I can get a decent picture of what is going on and develop decent hypo and hyper awareness then I hope I can get this thing under control without having to think about it too much.
> 
> Also when things have gone to cock then I have been able to trace it back to a meal where my carb estimate was probably in error.


Interesting. I appreciate it would vary from one individual to the next and not an exact science. But I do see n alternative approach. And for some not so much ditching the meter but using less often.


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## HOBIE (Feb 28, 2019)

WillyWonka said:


> Hi all. I am new to the forum and have been adopting a lower carb, higher fat approach to my Prediabetes condition.
> 
> Do we know of drawbacks associated with low carbing or ultra low carbing?


Well done, If I was T2 that's what I would do. "Carbs do the damage" Two of my good mates are off there T2 meds inc insulin. ?   Good luck & welcome  ww


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## Docb (Feb 28, 2019)

WillyWonka said:


> Interesting. I appreciate it would vary from one individual to the next and not an exact science. But I do see n alternative approach. And for some not so much ditching the meter but using less often.



Follow up on post above.... just tested 2 hrs after tea and I'm down to 4.2.  So overcooked it, to coin a phrase, with my very low carb tea.  Don't think I am in a position to ditch the meter just yet.  A couple of jelly babies and a nice biscuit with a brew in an hour or so and check to see where I am at at bedtime.  Fingers are starting to go tingly so suspect the JB's have not kicked in yet and I am still on the way down.  Good job I like doing experiments!


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## travellor (Feb 28, 2019)

Docb said:


> Follow up on post above.... just tested 2 hrs after tea and I'm down to 4.2.  So overcooked it, to coin a phrase, with my very low carb tea.  Don't think I am in a position to ditch the meter just yet.  A couple of jelly babies and a nice biscuit with a brew in an hour or so and check to see where I am at at bedtime.  Fingers are starting to go tingly so suspect the JB's have not kicked in yet and I am still on the way down.  Good job I like doing experiments!



I feel really bad below 5.
Fortunately, I'm fairly normal now, so it's not usually an event anymore, my liver looks after me.


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## WillyWonka (Feb 28, 2019)

Docb said:


> Follow up on post above.... just tested 2 hrs after tea and I'm down to 4.2.  So overcooked it, to coin a phrase, with my very low carb tea.  Don't think I am in a position to ditch the meter just yet.  A couple of jelly babies and a nice biscuit with a brew in an hour or so and check to see where I am at at bedtime.  Fingers are starting to go tingly so suspect the JB's have not kicked in yet and I am still on the way down.  Good job I like doing experiments!


Sorry to put you through that. Do you think if you hadn’t used the meter then you would have known to take the jelly baby anyway, or do you not trust yourself on that?

I was in London the other week yomping about up and down stairs in tube  stations and from one site to another and whilst low carbing I did feel a bit sick and light headed. I then ate something sweet and my condition returned to normal. I had no meter.


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## Docb (Feb 28, 2019)

Back up to a 5.6 for bed time so 2JB's and a biscuit (27g total carbohydrate) seems to have been about right..  No, don't think I would have hit the JB's without the meter but may well have done if it had dropped much lower because I assume the fingers would have got more and more tingly.  Never had a proper hypo so don't know what it would be like for me but have had the tingly fingers on the two or three occasions I have got close to 4 so in future I will take that as a warning.


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## travellor (Feb 28, 2019)

Docb said:


> Back up to a 5.6 for bed time so 2JB's and a biscuit (27g total carbohydrate) seems to have been about right..  No, don't think I would have hit the JB's without the meter but may well have done if it had dropped much lower because I assume the fingers would have got more and more tingly.  Never had a proper hypo so don't know what it would be like for me but have had the tingly fingers on the two or three occasions I have got close to 4 so in future I will take that as a warning.



What is your insulin regime?


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## Docb (Mar 1, 2019)

Not on insulin but taking gliclazide.


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## HOBIE (Mar 1, 2019)

Do yourself a big favour & cut down on the carbs . If you are running a marathon every day its different. T1s have to deal with this every minute of the day.


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## Docb (Mar 1, 2019)

Doing that HOBIE, but it takes time to get things balanced out.  Still learning.


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## WillyWonka (Mar 1, 2019)

Thanks @Docb

I am not trying to discourage anyone from using a meter. I was just wondering if it was always necessary.

I recall a T1 lady I know saying she always knew when she needed sugar ( she carry’s a biscuit around with her)  as she could read her warning signs but she had been a Type 1 all her life so was presumably well tuned into her body responses.


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## Docb (Mar 1, 2019)

No problems Willy, everybody has to find their own way through.  

On your basic point, doubt if everybody needs a meter.  For the at risk group, who can mostly get by with a few changes in lifestyle, watching the weight, doing some excercise and then having an annual HBA1C check is more than enough to keep tabs on things.

For the T1 group, glucose monitoring is essential, period.

For the T2 group, it seems to me that most would benefit by using a meter, something that comes over clearly from members of this community.  My own feeling is that in early days, paricularly if you have been found to have unhealthy blood glucose levels and are working with pills or diet or both to control them, then it is an incredibly useful tool to to get a grip on your own version of diabetes. If used well, it can provide the medics with the data needed to work out the best treatment for the individual rather than just keeping on trying stuff until you hit on something that seems to work.  

I expect to be testing forever but I expect the frequency of testing to decline as I get more comfortable with translating feelings into BG level and I would imagine many others would also be the same.  I suspect there is a group for which a meter is a bit of a waste of time because there are some, maybe not many,  who could not cope with the process of testing and making sense of the data.


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## WillyWonka (Mar 1, 2019)

Okay, that seems like an excellent summary and makes a lot of sense to me. Cheers.


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## travellor (Mar 1, 2019)

To be honest, I have my doubts about testing, even though I did test when I was diagnosed with T2.

Initially I tested to see what effect food had on my BG, and to record my fasting levels.

Personally, I very quickly realised "all carbs are the same" was nonsense.
I could have completely different reactions to them all.
Or even the same ones.
"all carbs turn to sugar", well they might, but I could still cope with ones those that digested slowly, and see a very low rise.
So again, nonsense when related to BG for me.
I produced insulin, I was insulin resistant, but obviously, if it was a slow release of carbs, even my trickle of a response could keep up.

I also realised the less carbs I ate, the higher my fasting level could become.
My liver dump just wasn't producing the same insulin response. Which is a recognised phenomenon, apparently.
But worrying if you don't know about it.

I realised mainly how much exercise helped, and how the effects lasted for days after.
Also I realised just how much weight loss did for me.

I'm not denying I did modify my diet during the testing, but to be honest, the spikes didn't scare me.
Even none diabetics spike.
I have no idea where the"rise of no more than 2" came from. It's certainly not normal.
So I had no problems with rises, as I was chasing the high numbers, and deliberately tested at the times when I would expect to see them.
I just ate, healthily, a classic low fat diet, supported by the NHS

So basically, every piece of advice the NHS had been giving me was correct.

Could I have done it without a meter?
Certainly, and for many I suspect it's probably the best way for them, as for a T2, so many natural things affect our own release of insulin, and our insulin resistance, it's a lot more complicated than simply adjusting the amount of carbs.
And if you worry about the number you see when you test, it's easy to let diabetes take control of your response to that number.
The internet certainly doesn't help to be honest.
I've realised testing was just a broad brush guide, Hba1c, and being free of diabetic complications is my measure.
And so long as my diabetes stays reversed, I can't see anything bad happening.


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## WillyWonka (Mar 1, 2019)

Thanks @travellor
Interesting post. Yes, I can see the point of testing and would never advise against it but I have arrived at the conclusion that it isn’t the only way forward and I haven’t tested once since I first registered a 49 for HbA1c a few years ago. My approach  has been to get a good handle of what would be likely to spike me from various sources including what’s on the back of the food packet etc and either eradicate or minimise those components in my diet. Like I say, I am down to a 36 now.

It worked. I was going to buy a meter (under duress from another source) but tryed to avoid the burden of testing all the time and so never did get my hands on one.

You make an interesting point about the exercise.


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## HOBIE (Mar 1, 2019)

Docb said:


> Doing that HOBIE, but it takes time to get things balanced out.  Still learning.


More that 52 years I have been LEARNING T1 &T2 are very different


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## travellor (Mar 1, 2019)

HOBIE said:


> More that 52 years I have been LEARNING T1 &T2 are very different



We are.

@Docb - be careful cutting carbs on gliclazide.

Your body will keep producing insulin, it's what gliclazide does. 
You can't reduce your insulin to compensate.
So it's possible to go too low.

You need to get into a BG range you are happy with, then reduce your meds, see a rise maybe, and work back down if you want to cut your carbs further.
I always say change one thing at a time, and always give it two weeks to settle down before taking any other actions.


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## HOBIE (Mar 1, 2019)

T2 can & do produce there OWN insulin where as T1 do not. Big difference T1 is an Auto immune problem


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## travellor (Mar 1, 2019)

HOBIE said:


> T2 can & do produce there OWN insulin where as T1 do not. Big difference T1 is an Auto immune problem



Exactly, that's why it's not advised to simply cut down on the carbs without considering the medications first, particularly as @Docb is hovering around 4 to 5 on the existing amount of carbs and gliclazide.


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## Docb (Mar 1, 2019)

Take your point travellor.  Have been running on 80mg gliclazide and around 80 g carbohydrate a day and seemed to be in some sort of stable pattern for the last two weeks with a mean daily BG of around 7.5 and a range of 5-10.  Yesterday total carb intake was the same in the day but had the 4.3 after a really rather nice low carb tea.  Today have had a 4.8 and a 4.1 with the same sort of meals as I have had over the last two weeks.  Its almost as if my insulin production has kicked up a notch or two.  The diabetes fairy is a mischievous so and so.  Had some JB's, because of the 4.1 so give it an hour and see what they have done.

Anyway, recommend that anybody on gliclazide and experimenting with carbs take heed of travellor's warning.


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## HOBIE (Mar 2, 2019)

As a T1 since the 60s I do not think I have ever had the exact same bg regularly


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## JaneyM (Mar 19, 2019)

WillyWonka said:


> Thanks @travellor
> Interesting post. Yes, I can see the point of testing and would never advise against it but I have arrived at the conclusion that it isn’t the only way forward and I haven’t tested once since I first registered a 49 for HbA1c a few years ago. My approach  has been to get a good handle of what would be likely to spike me from various sources including what’s on the back of the food packet etc and either eradicate or minimise those components in my diet. Like I say, I am down to a 36 now.
> 
> It worked. I was going to buy a meter (under duress from another source) but tryed to avoid the burden of testing all the time and so never did get my hands on one.
> ...


Interesting! I’m in a similar situation to you and have been wondering about buying a meter. Cutting out ‘white carbs’ and reducing consumption of other carbs should do the trick I hope. Also more exercise. #note to self - put the iPad away, get out of bed, and get to the gym. Due another HbA1c test in May


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## trophywench (Mar 19, 2019)

Do you actually need gym membership Janey?   What about housework?  (doesn't have to be obvious things like hoovering or sweeping vigorously - I've had several friends who regularly hypoed whilst ironing all the shirts for two teenage sons and her husband every week even though not all at once)  Gardening? Walking a bit more?  Going up and down stairs more times/quicker?


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## JaneyM (Mar 19, 2019)

trophywench said:


> Do you actually need gym membership Janey?   What about housework?  (doesn't have to be obvious things like hoovering or sweeping vigorously - I've had several friends who regularly hypoed whilst ironing all the shirts for two teenage sons and her husband every week even though not all at once)  Gardening? Walking a bit more?  Going up and down stairs more times/quicker?


Housework?!? I’d rather go to the gym, which I enjoy once I get there. My husband wears the shirts and irons his own. I walk, swim, do Pilates class and spin class, gym workouts. I’ve had a lay off because of injury but am getting back slowly. Can’t exercise every day as my leg needs to recover.


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## MikeTurin (Mar 20, 2019)

I normally use public transportation to go to work, so normally happens I have to do long walk due to missing buses. If I get lucky the bus catches fire ....
Seriuously, I try to walk a lot and from spring to autumn it's also a relaxing activity when one has to make errands.


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